Indian Interests_2

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Suraj »

sudarshan wrote:The first thing to do when writing (fiction or non-fiction) is to identify your audience.
I disagree with you. It is not universally applicable. Particularly not to what is essentially an entirely original piece of work; there exists - as far as I know - no effort to perform an evidence based investigation like this before. Some material serves fundamentally to offer a base for further material, as in research.

From my perspective, all positive interest from all parties so far has been a bonus. The article got about 10x the interest I expected of it, given that it is dry and data-based, to serve as a platform to build more upon. All this talk of knowing your audience is yum-bee-yay speak here - reality is that JEM wanted an article from me about something we chatted about long ago, and I wrote it.

It's obvious to me that you and YIP aren't interested audience and that's fine with me.
sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3018
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by sudarshan »

Suraj wrote: I disagree with you. It is not universally applicable. Particularly not to what is essentially an entirely original piece of work; there exists - as far as I know - no effort to perform an evidence based investigation like this before. Some material serves fundamentally to offer a base for further material, as in research.
There's no disagreement, I'm not getting through. But that's fine, let's just drop it. If there's no disagreement, then why are we arguing.
It's obvious to me that you and YIP aren't interested audience and that's fine with me.
The emphasized part above - you're wrong, I already have some ideas how to use some of the material in your article. But never mind.
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Suraj »

sudarshan wrote:If there's no disagreement, then why are we arguing.
Because you and YIP insisting that articles must be written with an audience in mind. I 'do not care about the audience' with this material. It's a foundational reference material.

I have no problem with feedback that says 'tl;dr' or too much data, didn't read. For most part, the article was intended to be quoted by other work as a basis for why the terminology is used. It's not entirely readable material in itself, that's true.

Maybe the better answer to 'who was it aimed at' is 'it serves the purpose of reference material more than readership'.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5461
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Cyrano »

Suraj ji,
I found the article's tone a bit dry and needed some focus on the part of the reader to read fully and appreciate. Which I mustered and was therefore able to appreciate it. May be you chose not to be as eloquent as you are capable of being, to focus on the facts and the essential argument. Thats fine. Style is subjective.

I think the comments you are receiving here are because we want a much wider audience to read and appreciate it, and perhaps the same content presented in a different style could enlarge the audience and therefore the impact.

The worst criticism is indifference.

"Qui aime bien châtie bien." :)
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Suraj »

There’s going to be more material around it, yes. Foundational reference material isn’t always too sexy but a foundation needs to be strong and well referenced. Otherwise it’s easy to invalidate and dismantle everything else. Eg ‘Aryan Invasion Theory’. Such a sexy and self-indulgent idea. One could spend a lot of time discussing if lead horse rider should be Russell Crowe or Tom Cruj.. but alas it’s foundation is made of sand.

Seemingly boring reference material is in fact critical baseline material . It need not be widely read as much as widely referenced. That it got the readership it did is a bonus.
Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 780
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Y I Patel »

Suraj

I am afraid you seem to have taken my comments the wrong way. If I had indeed disliked the article you would have not heard a peep from me. As I said, your use of facts is a strength, and I was hoping to share with you how I feel you can get greater mileage. My only intent has been to encourage you. You have the right ideas and the skills to disseminate them. More power to you!
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Suraj »

Yes there’s a lot more to be done, YIP. For example JEM is working on firsthand anecdotal history view of mainstream European conservative politics, to describe history similar to the BJP. He may not go all the way back to Adenauer, but it’s firsthand perspective nonetheless and will be more ‘readable’ as opposed to reference material . There’s another background piece I’m working on. Do reach out on teetar or Koo and you can be involved in any manner you desire.
Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 780
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Y I Patel »

I would be happy to help! Could you please share your koo handle on BRF?
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Suraj »

Both places are surajbrf
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

From an introduction by KM Munshi to volume Struggle for Empire published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan.
"The year A.D. 1000 was a fateful year for India. In that year, Mahmud of Ghazni first invaded it. That event, in my opinion, divides Ancient from Medieval India. For over 2000 years before this event, that is, from before the days of king Janamejaya Parikshita, referred to in the Brdhmanas, the culture of the dominant classes, developing in almost unbroken conti¬ nuity, had brought large sections of the people within its fold. It was, however, disturbed on occasions, for instance, by the raids of Alexander; by the influx of the Bactrian Greeks, the Kushanas and the Sakas; by the invasion of the Hunas; by the Arab incursions in Sindh. But these inroads were only temporary episodes; the vita¬ lity of the culture and social organization found it easy to absorb most of the alien elements which were left behind in the country after they were closed. This continuous vitality is a phenomenon, without appreciating which it is difficult to study the epochs of Indian history in conti¬ nuous time. Several factors have maintained it. Of them, perhaps the most important was the ‘Aryavarta-consciousness’ which threw up values and institutions of great vigour and tenacity. "
"This continuous vitality is a phenomenon, without appreciating which it is difficult to study the epochs of Indian history in conti¬ nuous time. Several factors have maintained it. Of them, perhaps the most important was the ‘Aryavarta-consciousness’ which threw up values and institutions of great vigour and tenacity. It was based on the faith that Bharatavarsha, in its ideal aspect often referred to as Aryavarta, was the sacred land of Dharma, ‘the high road to Heaven and to Salvation'; where ‘men were nobler than the Gods themselves;1 where all knowledge, thought and wor¬ ship were rooted in the Vedas, revealed by the Gods themselves; where the Dharmasastras prescribed the fundamental canons of per¬ sonal life and social relations; where Chaturvarnya, the divinely- ordained fOur-fold order of society, embraced all social groups; where, whatever the dialect of the people, Sanskrit, the language of the Gods, was the supreme medium of high expression.’ The Dharmasastras—and by that is meant not only the Smritis beginning with the Manu-smriti, but the Mahabharata2—have play¬ ed a very big role in the life of the country. Particularly Manu- smriti, as the Dharmasdstra of divine origin, has had an all-pervading influence from the time historical memory could reach back to moulding the mind and the life of men, not only in India but in the India beyond the Seas, in Burma, Siam, Annam, Cambodia, Java and Bali. With the Mahabharata and the R&mayana, it has provided a background of continuity to the social and moral life; modified customary laws of tribes and communities in different stages of civilization; and built up the Collective Unconscious of our people, that subconscious source of integrative vitality which keeps a people together, leads them to feel and react as one in the face of certain circumstances, and provides the urge to collective action of a re¬ curring character. Century after century, the system, first formulated by the Manu- smriti, was accepted throughout the country, never by force of arms, less by royal fiats than the sanction implied in the belief that ‘God gave it and the ancestors obeyed it’. It was found so acceptable because it had a revealing basis of reality: of a frank recognition of the temperamental inequalities of man; of the predominance of hereditary influences over environments; of the need for a synthetic framework for widely differing social groups in a vast country where culture had been staggered from not only region to region, but often from one group of villages to another. Its fundamental aim was to produce a synthetic urge towards human betterment, which treated economic, social, material, and ethical and spiritual well-being as indivisible; an aim which has yet to be improved upon by any other system."

"The ‘Aryavarta-consciousness’ was mainly religio-cultural in content. Its political significance which, though often belied in prac¬ tice, exercised considerable influence with the kings of an earlier age in North India when they faced foreign invasion; it is sum¬ med up by Medhatithi thus: “Aryavarta was so called because the Aryas sprang up in it again and again. Even if it was overrun by the mlechchhas, they could never abide there for long”.3 The tradition also had it that whenever a crisis arose, a chakravartin, a world- emperor, would rise in the land and re-establish Dharma. South India, however, which accepted the religio-cultural aspects of ‘Aryavarta-consciousness’ and Manu’s system, knew no such significance, for it had never to face the problem of the mlechchhas till the fourteenth century. "
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4825
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by KLNMurthy »

Cyrano wrote:Suraj ji,
I found the article's tone a bit dry and needed some focus on the part of the reader to read fully and appreciate. Which I mustered and was therefore able to appreciate it. May be you chose not to be as eloquent as you are capable of being, to focus on the facts and the essential argument. Thats fine. Style is subjective.

I think the comments you are receiving here are because we want a much wider audience to read and appreciate it, and perhaps the same content presented in a different style could enlarge the audience and therefore the impact.

The worst criticism is indifference.

"Qui aime bien châtie bien." :)
I suspect most readers wouldn’t really care about the finer points of whether and how BJP is like European Christian Democrats. Very few in the Angloverse have any meaningful conception of what Christian Democrats are.

What a general open-minded Indian reader should take away from the article is:

- there is overwhelming evidence that the BJP hits the mark on economic welfarism, and a cautious variety of social liberalism.

- therefore, we need to question the usual (even by BJP supporters) characterization of the BJP as India’s version of the US Republican Party, or the Polish , Hungarian, Brazilian right wing parties.

- not in the scope of the article but internal & external national security measures and curbs on free expression are neither BJP innovations nor (I guess) is their use any more egregious under BJP than under Congress.

It is a whole another fascinating exercise to try and explain why so many are close-minded about this.
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Suraj »

As usual - and as I expect of him :) - KLNMurthy hits the mark as to the takeaways .

The modern BJP is nothing at all like the current Republicans, or the Brazilians, Polish or Hungarians. All of those are traditional conservatives. They fit nicely into the well understood distinction of traditional conservatism vs modern liberalism.

The comment on national security measures is an interesting one. In this, the Europeans are actually aligned to the BJP, in that both Merkel and Macron have been outspoken in their opposition to social media entities imposing their own definition of 'free speech', something they've no business doing upon anyone.

There are four major liberal-conservative leaders whose position on social media and free speech are very closely aligned : Modi, Emmanuel Macron, Angela Merkel and Scott Morrison (of the Australian Liberal Party, who despite the name are their mainstream center-right liberal-conservative party).

KLN, if you want to write something along that direction, feel free to reach out.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12060
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Vayutuvan »

Suraj wrote:As usual - and as I expect of him :) - KLNMurthy hits the mark as to the takeaways .
...
Link to this piece by Suraj you are all talking about, please. I am unable to find it in the last three pages of this thread.
venkat_kv
BRFite
Posts: 459
Joined: 05 Dec 2020 21:01

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by venkat_kv »

Vayutuvan wrote:
Suraj wrote:As usual - and as I expect of him :) - KLNMurthy hits the mark as to the takeaways .
...
Link to this piece by Suraj you are all talking about, please. I am unable to find it in the last three pages of this thread.
Vayutavan Saar, this discussion started in the strat thread originally and the link is there. Putting it below for you.
Suraj wrote:With JE Menon’s support, I had my first article published on SwarajyaMag:
Why BJP Should Be Considered A Hindu Democratic Party
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12060
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Vayutuvan »

thanks venkat garu.
Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5128
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Manish_Sharma »

https://twitter.com/Anuraag_Shukla/stat ... 76707?s=19

@Anuraag_Shukla:

The Uncolonized Mind: Aurobindo

If Kipling was culturally an Indian child who grew up to become an ideologue of the moral and political superiority of the West, Aurobindo was culturally a European child who grew up to become a votary of the spiritual leadership in India.(1/17)

If Kipling had to disown his Indianness to become his concept of the true European; Aurobindo had to own up his Indianness to become his version of the authentic Indian. Though Aurobindo symbolized a more universal response to the splits that colonialism had induced. (2/17)

Aurobindo Ackroyd Ghose- the Western middle name was given by his father at birth- was the third son of his parents. The Ghoses were urbane Brahmos from near Calcutta and fully exposed to the new currents of social change in India. (3/17)

His father, Krishnadhan, a doctor trained in England, was well known among his friends and relatives for his aggressively Anglicized ways. He forbade his children to learn or speak Bangla; even at home, they had to converse in English. (4/17)

For some reason, young Aurobindo was the favored object of his father’s zealous social engineering. Krishadhan took the greatest care that nothing Indian should touch this son of this. (5/17)

Aurobindo’s mother, Swarnalata, though, was an ‘orthodox’ Hindu, and she didn’t fully relish the Western manners of her husband. Nor must she have enjoyed the charade of communicating through English in the family. (6/17)

However, what disturbed human relations in the family more than the oppression of language was the illness Swarnalata who fell prey to early in Aurobindo’s life. Called hysteria by her contemporaries, she gradually became more and more ‘unmanageable’. (7/17)

Either as a response to the environment at home, or as a response to her mother's condition, young Aurobindo showed signs of mutism and interpersonal withdrawal, which his admirers were to later read as an early sign of spirituality. (8/17)

When five, Aurobindo was sent to a Westernized, elite convent at Darjeeling with an English governess who served as a surrogate mother. His co-students there were mostly white. English was the sole medium of instruction and only means of communication outside school hours. (9/17)

The resulting sense of exile found expression, and even at that age, in a statement made in the third person;

“In the shadow of the Himalayas, in sight of the wonderful snow-capped peaks, even in their native land they were brought up in alien surroundings.” (10/17)

When Aurobindo was seven, his father took him to England and left them there. He was now exposed, not to the Westernized lifestyle of Indians, but the Western ways of the English. One Sunday, Mrs. Drewett who was Aurobindo’s care-taker, managed to get him duly baptized. (11/17)

During his days with the Drewett's & later at an elite school, Aurobindo was now exposed to Greek & Latin. He took a scholarship at King’s College & did brilliantly, winning all the prizes. He learnt French, some German, and Italian. Yet there was a rebellion in the air. (12/17)

For years he had been taught to view England as an ideal society; now England was re-invoking his early anxieties associated with the West. He began to look for alternative ways for handling the Occident & to defy the model of success associated with the Anglicism of his father.

Thus, after taking the first part of the Classical Tripos with a first-class, Aurobindo did not take the degree. He did very well in the ICS exam, he missed the riding test & got himself disqualified, knowing well that ‘his father was very particular about the exam’.(14/17)

Finally, he delivered a few fiery nationalist speeches at the Indian Majlis in Cambridge & got involved with a secret society pursuing the cause of Indian freedom. And to symbolize his break with the West, he dropped the Ackroyd from his name. (15/17)

He started working out on the rudiments of a political ideology, which was to be built around a form of populism in which ‘the proletariat’ was ‘the real key to the situation’ and around a mythography of India as 'a powerful mother, Sakti'. (16/17)

This imaginary he has borrowed from Bankim Chandra Chatterji. Aurobindo admired Bankim as much for this as for the hope Bankim’s work gave of being able to drive out the English language, his father’s beloved language, from India & install his mother-tongue at its place. (17/17) https://t.co/1lY5g1OHTW
venkat_kv
BRFite
Posts: 459
Joined: 05 Dec 2020 21:01

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by venkat_kv »

Vayutuvan wrote:thanks venkat garu.
Vayutavan Ji, no garu for me. I am quite young. :D
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

Aurbindo wrote a beautiful book tying the great epic dynasties and brought it to the Mahabharata. Will find the passage and book.

The book is Early Cultural Writings.

In the chapter on Mahabharata he writes about the political and geography of the regions.

Aurbindo in his book Early Cultural Writings (pages 293 to 301) discusses the causes of the Mahabharata war and makes some general remarks about the nature and history of the people of India. He writes of the four great empires of the Suryavanshis and one of the Chandravanshis. And how Eastern and Central UP are the centers for unifying Imperial ideas. And that the South and Western India are anti-imperial.

Kaal chiron remarkably made the same conclusion in his discussions on Epics and his blog posts.
sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3018
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by sudarshan »

Ramana ji, your map in your tweet here:

https://twitter.com/ramana_brf/status/1 ... 97/photo/1

is pretty much the map of British India in 1940 (or 1947)! (See the second map - India before partition).

https://twitter.com/RareHistorical/stat ... 64/photo/1
Paul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3800
Joined: 25 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Paul »

https://indianexpress.com/article/opini ... s-7341654/

What critics of PM Modi’s foreign policy are ignoring
Kanwal Sibal, Shyamala B Cowsik, Veena Sikri, Bhaswati Mukherjee write: They are disregarding clear continuities in key areas of foreign policy under the UPA and the NDA governments, and minimising external threats to India.



Written by Kanwal Sibal , Shyamala B Cowsik , Veena Sikri , Bhaswati Mukherjee |
Updated: June 3, 2021 2:44:49 pm
Prime Minister Narendra Modi leaves after a function at the BJP headquarters in New Delhi. (AP Photo)
We, a Forum of Former Ambassadors of India, are concerned at the manner in which Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s foreign policies are being relentlessly criticised, including by those who were at the helm of our foreign and security policies in the past.

Those faulting the Modi government’s foreign policy as if there are serious departures from the past miss the clear continuities in key areas under the UPA and the NDA governments. The BJP government under former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee made India nuclear, engaged the US government in strategic discussions to resolve the nuclear issue, which eventually led to the India-US nuclear deal under PM Manmohan Singh’s government.

The dialogue with Pakistan broke down under the previous government and the impasse endures. The policy to engage Russia as a tried and trusted friend even as we develop new partnerships has not undergone any change. Important openings towards the conservative Gulf States created by the UPA have been greatly broadened by the NDA. With his background PM Modi’s excellent personal equations with the Saudi rulers and the Gulf potentates is a remarkable achievement.


The Malabar exercises with the US began in the 1990s, resumed under the UPA Government and have now been expanded to include Japan and Australia. The Look East policy of the UPA became the Act East policy under the NDA. Priority has been given by both governments to relations with Japan. The Indo-Pacific concept was first formulated by former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe in his speech to India’s parliament in 2007, has been in the air in the years that followed and has evolved under the NDA.

The Modi Government has paid far more attention to its neighbours than the previous government, with PM Modi making frequent visits to their capitals. It has focused far more than its predecessor on maritime security in the Indian Ocean and on acquiring the required capabilities to better ensure this. A major maritime partnership has been established with France in the western Indian Ocean. Access to naval bases in the Gulf is now available to the Indian navy.

Ties with ASEAN have continued to be cultivated, with all its leaders present in India on Republic Day 2018 as chief guests. The more restricted format of the India-Africa summit in 2008 and 2011 was enlarged in scope in 2015 with 41 African leaders participating.

With the European Union, at the 16th India-EU Leaders Virtual Summit in May, when all the 27 leaders were present, it has been agreed to resume negotiations, blocked since 2013, on a Free Trade Agreement, an Investment Agreement and one on Geographic Indicators. Separately an Enhanced Trade Partnership Agreement has been signed with post-Brexit UK.

Where PM Modi has imposed his thinking and personality more markedly at the international level is in the active wooing of the Indian diaspora. He has been able to galvanise them with his oratory and his message of confidence in India’s future. PM Modi has also promoted India’s soft power and its cultural and religious heritage as a tool of foreign policy which his predecessor did not. In 2014, the UN declared June 21 as Yoga Day annually. The new areas he has explored, such as leveraging our cultural soft power, are add-ons to a basic continuity, not diversions from it.

Of concern are the efforts by “experts” to gloss over China’s policies, motives and hostility towards India. To argue that China occupied part of the Doklam plateau in Bhutan because we cried “victory” after checkmating them is to not only to deny the government credit for standing up to China, but actually project it as a mistake in giving China an excuse to implant itself more firmly on the plateau. By this logic China’s reported occupation of a strip of land in northern Bhutan, intrusion into large swathes of Ladakh, territorial claims on Arunachal Pradesh, stirring incidents in Sikkim, reclaiming islands, occupying and militarising them in South China Sea are all a result of India and others goading China by crying victory or following ill-thought out policies. What we saw at Doklam was simply a part of a new-found Chinese aggressiveness on territorial sovereignty issues that we see in many other geographies.

If the UPA government down played the Depsang incident, calling it an “acne” on the beautiful face of India-China ties and engaged in behind the scene discussions in order to avoid hardening of positions on both sides to give diplomacy a chance, why is the Modi government being accused of dishonesty by avoiding jingoism and pursuing quiet but intensive diplomacy coupled with strong military measures on the far more sensitive and dangerous eastern Ladakh confrontation? To claim that after massing 50,000 troops, including during winter, and occupying the Kailash Range heights, the Modi government is defending a “narrative” and not our actual position on the ground is groundless criticism.

These “experts” argue that cheap Chinese goods are good for the Indian consumer, that instead of accelerating decoupling we should build a relationship where the dependencies are minimised and the benefits maximised- as if China will play ball with such plans- and in recommending that we remain open to Chinese investments in a controlled manner. In other words, keep the security part separate from the economic part, precisely what China advocates.

China is not just another neighbour. It is a powerful adversary that has, over decades, sought to undermine Indian interests at every turn. Any peace with China would be tenuous, lasting only as long as China wishes it to last. That China has wrecked the existing border agreements and the basis on which the relationship is being managed since 1988 presents us with a continuing challenge, more acute as China becomes stronger and its ambitions become grander.

The gloss that is being put on China’s global ambitions is puzzling. It is argued that China is ready to take centre stage, not to build a different world order but to redefine the existing order and improve it, that anything outside that is dangerous, and that China is open to negotiation. This is reducing the threat China poses to the international order to mere semantics, ignoring the hard geopolitics and hegemonic ambitions at play. China, it is being claimed, merely wants a division of the world between the great powers. Would this mean that China is willing to divide Asia between China and India, that is, accept two tigers on the same mountain? Or is it a tacit support for a G2 to which India should reconcile?

To criticise the Modi government’s foreign policy on the ground that India does best when it is most connected to the outside world, that in the last few years we are turning inwards, closing our mind and cutting ourselves from the outside world, absurdly suggests that India has marooned itself on an island since 2014.

India continues to participate actively in international fora, be it the G20, invitations to G7 meetings, those of BRICS and SCO. It has initiated the International Solar Alliance and the Disaster Resilient Infrastructure Coalition, taken a leadership role in Climate Change negotiations in lieu of a defensive position, reinvigorated ties with Europe, defined the Indo-Pacific concept in accordance with our vision, calibrated the strengthening of the Quad and launched new initiatives in the Indian Ocean area. To say we are convinced we are unique and exceptional and do not need the world is empty criticism. As of May 2021, PM Modi has made 109 visits abroad, visiting 60 countries.

India has aspirations to be a leading power, but there is no officially expressed ambition to be a “Vishwa Guru”, though the West has been a “Vishwa Guru” in seeking to mould the world in accordance with its “universal” values. That India seeks “to change the world, get revenge, gain status or to get other people to say how great we are” is mocking at our aspiration to rise as a power. Unlike China, when has India seen its rise as a way to get revenge for past humiliations?


The critique that the BJP’s foreign policy is being used for domestic political purposes is superficial. No country builds a firewall between its foreign and domestic policies. All governments leverage foreign policy for a variety of domestic ends, be it economic welfare, security, responding to public expectations, boosting popularity at home, and so on. Some examples are the US war on Iraq and on terror, its withdrawal from Afghanistan, the issue of Russian interference in US elections, our neighbours using the India bogey to do domestic politics, China using wolf warrior diplomatic defiance abroad to whip up nationalist sentiments at home and consolidate President Xi Jinping’s grip over the country. Every foreign policy move by China is suitably aired all over its domestic media in carefully tailored reports highlighting it as a signal success.

It is regrettable that at a time when the country is battling the ravages of the pandemic, especially the frighteningly deadly second wave which has put an enormous burden on our health sector, instead of solidarity with the government, the critics are heaping blame on governance failures of the Modi government and joining with foreign lobbies traditionally biased against India to diminish the PM’s image at home and abroad. This is obvious from the spate of such articles in the national and international media written by Indians. The driving force behind such relentless and unprecedented criticism of the Modi government is hostility towards the ruling party and towards PM Modi personally.

We take this opportunity to urge that in moments of such national calamity, let’s be united and not give our external enemies, who remain the same regardless of who is in power, the space to tarnish our image and damage our national interest.

Signatories from the Forum of Former Ambassadors of India.
Signed by the following
Ambassador CM Bhandari, Ambassador Pinak Ranjan Chakravarty, Ambassador Satish Chandra, Ambassador Shyamala B Cowsik, Ambassador Niranjan Desai, Ambassador Gauri Shankar Gupta, Ambassador OP Gupta, Ambassador Virendra Gupta, Ambassador Yogesh Gupta, Ambassador GS Iyer, Ambassador Dinesh Jain, Ambassador PK Kapur, Ambassador Ashok Kumar, Ambassador Mohan Kumar, Ambassador Mysore Lokesh, Ambassador Bhaswati Mukherjee, Ambassador Om Prakash, Ambassador Lakshmi Puri, Ambassador Manjeev Puri, Ambassador Ashok Sajjanhar, Ambassador Jagjit S Sapra, Ambassador Prakash Shah, Ambassador NP Sharma, Ambassador Balkrishna Shetty, Ambassador Kanwal Sibal, Ambassador Veena Sikri, Ambassador Ajay Swarup, Ambassador Anil Trigunayat, Ambassador JK Tripathi, Ambassador BB Tyagi, Ambassador Mitra Vasisht, Ambassador Vidya Sagar Verma, Ambassador Deepak Vohra
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12060
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Vayutuvan »

venkat_kv wrote:
Vayutuvan wrote:thanks venkat garu.
Vayutavan Ji, no garu for me. I am quite young. :D
So am I. :wink:
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

Zelikow traces policy-making in the US. Something for Indian leaders to think about.

https://tnsr.org/2019/09/to-regain-poli ... m-solving/
sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3018
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by sudarshan »

Does anybody know what this EKAM foundation is? It says it is an NGO working for progress in issues like child mortality, infant nutrition, etc. The website mentions collaboration with the UNICEF in Chattisgarh, which seems to be a red flag. Any inputs appreciated.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

You need to give more details to find out.
khatvaanga
BRFite
Posts: 163
Joined: 04 Mar 2019 00:59

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by khatvaanga »

sudarshan wrote:Does anybody know what this EKAM foundation is? It says it is an NGO working for progress in issues like child mortality, infant nutrition, etc. The website mentions collaboration with the UNICEF in Chattisgarh, which seems to be a red flag. Any inputs appreciated.
looks legit at first glance.

https://www.ekamoneness.org/about/integ ... ociations/

NGO SUPPORT
Sevakirana
Sewa International USA


from that page. need to dig a bit deeper sire.
sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3018
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by sudarshan »

khatvaanga wrote: looks legit at first glance.

https://www.ekamoneness.org/about/integ ... ociations/

NGO SUPPORT
Sevakirana
Sewa International USA


from that page. need to dig a bit deeper sire.
Thanks! My earlier searches brought up some questionable links (which is why I was asking), but I think I might have gone to a wrong website. Will continue looking.

Ramana ji: I wasn't asking people to do research on the subject, I was asking if anybody had already had dealings with this organization and knew about it.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

Since we don't have a thread on India's political and freedom history thread, posting here.

https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.n ... orks_india

We realize that a hundred years ago both violence and non-violence were intertwined in getting India's freedom in four decades.
And there were shifting venues and groups of people who carried the torch and not much is acknowledged of their contributions.
During the First World War the engine of revolutionary activity shifted from cosmopolitan elites in India to semi-permanent communities of migrant labourers abroad. The largest proportion of these came from Punjab in north-west India and were largely (although not exclusively) Sikh. Emigration from Punjab, from communities that were colonized but favoured with British patronage after the "Mutiny" of 1857, was a product of British imperialism. It was dependent on constant British neuroses of the fragility of the Empire and of imminent, colonial collapse. The Sikh policeman and soldier became a staple in settlements across South East Asia after their introduction into the Hong Kong Police in 1867, the Perak Armed Police in 1873 (which soon became the Malay States Guides) and the Hong Kong and Singapore Royal Garrison Artillery from 1881 on.
The Canadian influx of Khalistanis is built on the good image of the early immigrant Sikhs.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

Continued...
Beginning in the 1880s, men from the same communities and villages migrated as labourers to Australia, New Zealand, Fiji and, finally, logging and railroad camps, timber-mills and large farms along the Pacific Coast of North America (California, Oregon, Washington and British Columbia). These two migrations from Punjab – as colonial policemen and colonial labourers – were intimately connected. A large number of migrants were former soldiers (between half to three-quarters of the total), hoping to ease their entry abroad by invoking their former imperial service and funding their migrations through the gratuities they received upon discharge.[13] The ease with which a Punjabi sipahi (soldier or policemen) could become a chaukidar (guard, doorman or watchmen) and then a mazdur (labourer) was conditioned by the effects of colonialism at home. Punjab was on the same arc of rural underdevelopment that plagued the rest of colonial India. Colonial officials were constantly concerned about the levels of rural indebtedness in the very districts from which the Indian Army gained its recruits: “The small holder is faced with two alternatives. Either a supplementary source of income must be found, or he must be content with the low standard of living that bondage to the money-lender entails. The bolder spirit joins the army [...] the more enterprising emigrate.”[14] In 1907, in response to epidemics of bubonic plague and malaria (leading to 2 million deaths in the province of Punjab), increasing rural landlessness, the failure of the cotton crop and the “Colonization Act” (subverting previous rights of tenure and increased water rates for irrigation), Punjab became embroiled in rural agitation.[15] The movement gave Punjabis a revolutionary rhetoric and symbols and, through the arrests and transportation of Sardar Ajit Singh (1881-1947) and Lala Lajpat Rai (1865-1928), their own revolutionary martyrs.[16]
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

In Punjab we see similar issues plaguing the state: increasing rural landlessness as land is cornered by Jat Sikhs, increased poverty as APMC are cornered by arthiyas connected to political parties, and the Covid pandemic. All these are built on a foundation of turmoil since the Congress and Akali Dal civil war that led to forming Khalistan.

Modi govt big step last year was to enact Farm Reforms that streamline the markets and hence reduce rural poverty. The other step is creating the Cooperation Ministry to provide a safety net for farm produce marketing and processing.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

Continued..
More concerted action was taken after members of Ghadar reached out to members of Jugantar (one of the pre-war Bengali secret societies) in hiding in Benares[34] in order to gain access to more arms and home-made explosives. A date was fixed – 21 February 1915 – upon which members of Ghadar were to attack Lahore Cantonment. “Bombs were prepared, arms got together, flags prepared, a declaration of war drawn up, instruments for destroying railways and telegraph wires collected and everything was put hastily in train for the general rising on the 21st February.”[35] Efforts were made to secure support from active soldiers by former comrades or relatives (some members of Ghadar even re-enlisted in the Army for that purpose). The 23rd Cavalry at the Lahore Cantonment at Mian Mir and the 26th Punjabis at Ferozepur promised to defect en masse; soldiers in the 128th Pioneers, 12th Cavalry at Meerut and 9th Bhopal Infantry in Benares promised that they would do something if other battalions and squadrons defected. It was decided that the liberation of Lahore was to be the signal for a general rising by soldiers who had already committed themselves to the cause and an inspiring example for the majority of soldiers and civilians in India who would be caught unaware. “The idea,” the Lieutenant-Governor of Punjab later wrote, “was not fantastic, for it had penetrated as far down as Bengal and was known to the disaffected elements in Dacca.”[36]
Didn't know about this potential mutiny in Punjab and North India in 1915.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

What still ails Kahlistanis in America: US and Canada
Those that remained in the United States were plagued by a factional struggle between student-intellectuals and Punjabi labourers – the latter accused of impropriety, the former (not unreasonably) of embezzling funds.
vsunder
BRFite
Posts: 1353
Joined: 06 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Ulan Bator, Mongolia

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by vsunder »

^^^ Ramana: There was US involvement in this too. The leader of this was one Heramba Lal Gupta and he had approached the Germans for money for rifles etc. Money would be collected in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herambalal_Gupta

The British were aware of this but could not do much. They did hand over to the Americans several telegrams and messages which were enciphered by Heramba Lal Gupta. The messages were passed on to a brilliant cryptologist William Friedman and his wife Elizabeth. It can be said Friedman was the start of American cryptology. They were actually working for someone called Fabyan near Geneva, Illinois trying to decode Elizabethan codes and Shakespeare. Unfortunately for Heramba Lal, he had not enciphered all his messages but only key parts and using a simple book code ( a dictionary it turned out) which Friedman deciphered rapidly. Book codes are notoriously easy to decode using frequency analysis as it is a simple transcription. Digraphic codes are also easy to break like the famous Playfair code that was used by coast watchers in the Pacific transmitting Japanese naval movements. Playfair did not invent the code but Wheatsone of the Wheatstone bridge we did electricity experiments in school to determine unknown resistances, same guy.

Many of the co-conspirators were caught in the Punjab and hanged because of this cryptological feat. In US cryptological history this event is referred to as "The Hindu Conspiracy". Friedman went on to set up the agency that culminated in the organization that deciphered PURPLE the Japanese Naval codes and achieved US victory in WW2 and the current NSA owes its structure and establishment to Friedman.

https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/70/document ... 120031-313


Some of that "Hindu Conspiracy" history is here ^^^

The definitive account about codebreaking is the monumental book by David Kahn that I read 45 years ago. It reproduces some of the telegrams of Gupta. It has been updated to account for this new phenomenon The Internet.

https://www.amazon.com/Codebreakers-Com ... 0684831309

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_F._Friedman
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

Vsunder, Thanks. British had an agent posted in San Francisco who got with the expatriate Sikhs.
I forget his name.
Also William Randolph Hearst's mother was a key supporter of Lala Hardayal an important figure in Ghadar movement. He taught in Berkeley and Stanford.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

In 2012 London School of Economics issued a report on India and many eminent people wrote in it.
https://www.lse.ac.uk/ideas/Assets/Docu ... rpower.pdf

SSridhar and Rudradev please read the chapter and make two-page essay on where we are and where we are lacking nine years later?
sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3018
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by sudarshan »

Just what is this "curry?"

https://www.yahoo.com/news/not-just-cur ... 15051.html

Would be nice to have a similar discussion on the term "South Asian" next, which the article uses a lot.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5461
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Cyrano »

Long article that couldn't trace curry back to curry leaves or kari-vepa aakulu which means dark-neem leaves. This small tree/large shrub's grows in many back yards all over India, whose fragrant leaves are a must to make rasam in the south or buttermilk Kadi in the north, which is why its popularly called "kadi patta".

Its scientific name "Murraya koenigii" neither the genus nor species are named after anything or anyone Indian.

Though Indian food is wholesale labelled as Curry and a wide variety of dishes are sometimes lumped smelly curries due to strong fragrances that linger for a long time especially in well insulated homes and a/c environements of the west, our dear Kari-vepa aaku is an unjust victim of the intolerance of Western nasal receptors and palate conditioned mostly by peppermint chewing gums, strawberry condoms and lavender toilet sprays.

The pungent, lingering smell of Indian food or curry for the unwashed, actually comes from fenugreek or methi seeds or menthulu fried in oil for the tempering or powdered roasted fenugreek seeds used in many masalas, especially south Indian.

Try making rasam or sambar or pulusu/koLambu without fenugreek seeds or a biryani with it and you'll see what I mean. No amount of curry leaves can create the effect a teaspoonful of methi seeds or even a handful of dried methi leaves can, but kari-vepa aaku gets unjustly blamed for it.

However, a ladle of justice is served by the fact that methi is known as fenugreek in the west - derived from French fenouil-grec is nothing like fenouil or fennel which is from the carrot family nor does it come from Greece. For hiding behind curry leaves and diffusing its strong odours surreptitiously, it has to bear the basterd name of Trigonella foenum-graecum and gets downgraded from being a lofty oriental spice to the category of hay ie cattle grass.

Dont worry have some more curry or Kari or kadhi or whatever.... :)
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12060
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Vayutuvan »

Cyrano wrote:Long article that couldn't trace curry back to curry leaves or kari-vepa aakulu which means dark-neem leaves.
kari can mean elephant. karre or karri is dark.kaaru also dark as in kaaru cheekaTi very black darkness.
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6088
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by sanjaykumar »

Kara also means black in Turkic languages.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12060
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Vayutuvan »

sanjaykumar wrote:Kara also means black in Turkic languages.
What about vepa? It is a Telugu word and I think it is not borrowed. Hyderabadi turkic influence? turkic word plus a telugu word. It is typical of TS Telugu.
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6088
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by sanjaykumar »

If s > h perhaps r and l are linguistically intimate.
Post Reply