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Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

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Singha
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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2017 19:07


Singha
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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2017 19:12

Valiant workers marching to punish the yindu

Image

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Suraj » 29 Apr 2017 20:08

manju wrote:
Suraj wrote:Qin Shi Huang was the prototype of paranoid Chinese despot, the last of which was Mao, though Eleven is showing budding abilities too. He died while on an expedition to find the 'elixir of everlasting life', and his quack, err Imperial Physician, prescribed him mercury to drink. He ruled from 220BC to 210BC as the first emperor of the founding Qin Dynasty. The interesting thing is that his mausoleum had been under construction between 246BC and 208BC. So he had basically plotted his grand resting place from which he expected to wake up and continue ruling, 25 years before he even got done with winning the bloody war of the Warring States Period.


Contrast this with Chandra Gupta Maurya who kicked the Greeks out of india and then just at the age of 40 y renounced his throne and came down to shravanabelagola and died as a monk (starving to death voluntarily)

Renunciation VS narcissism

No please, thats totally not the point of this thread. Don't go with that line of thinking. This thread is not an attempt to show 'Chinese are primitive barbarian and we are civilized enlightened. Yay us!'

The purpose of this thread is to get Indians to understand what drives Chinese to behave like they do. To understand, given a situation of interaction, how will they likely behave . We need to stop thinking in terms of guidelines *we* apply, and learn to think how they think in such a situation .

Posts like the above are a demonstration of judging them by our value systems . By their value system ''Chandragupta Maurya was a fool who instead of building an even larger empire, forgot his job, ran around naked, forgot to eat and died'. So, judging them according to our value system is not the point .

Instead , understanding them to this extent should let us begin to better interpret how they have behaved so far, and more critically, guess better as to their future motives and actions.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby manju » 29 Apr 2017 20:36

Suraj wrote:
manju wrote:
Contrast this with Chandra Gupta Maurya who kicked the Greeks out of india and then just at the age of 40 y renounced his throne and came down to shravanabelagola and died as a monk (starving to death voluntarily)

Renunciation VS narcissism

No please, thats totally not the point of this thread. Don't go with that line of thinking. This thread is not an attempt to show 'Chinese are primitive barbarian and we are civilized enlightened. Yay us!'

The purpose of this thread is to get Indians to understand what drives Chinese to behave like they do. To understand, given a situation of interaction, how will they likely behave . We need to stop thinking in terms of guidelines *we* apply, and learn to think how they think in such a situation .

Posts like the above are a demonstration of judging them by our value systems . By their value system ''Chandragupta Maurya was a fool who instead of building an even larger empire, forgot his job, ran around naked, forgot to eat and died'. So, judging them according to our value system is not the point .

Instead , understanding them to this extent should let us begin to better interpret how they have behaved so far, and more critically, guess better as to their future motives and actions.



Agree 100%

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby anupmisra » 29 Apr 2017 21:25

Here's another lie the chinis have been promoting and boasting over the past 70 years.

China Celebrates 70th Anniversary of Big, Fat Li - "its victory in the Chinese People's War of Resistance Against Japanese Aggression"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8hnk0mxaAU

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby RCase » 29 Apr 2017 23:20

The Cultural Revolution. Narrated by a Chinese. This can give us a better understanding of the thought process of the children of CR. There are lots of parallels with Malsi!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGpmVs0_Dbc

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Suraj » 29 Apr 2017 23:38

The most revealing thing about the CR to me is not Mao's ideas themselves. Any idiot can come up with such ideas. What's really revealing is the way in which Chinese themselves screwed each other over so badly during that time, without significant coercion. Or as Facquhar put it 2 pages ago "without direct orders, were so cruel to each other".

There simply was no societal moderating influence reminding people 'what the cluck are you guys thinking ??' And despite not one but two acts of stupidity or deviousness by Mao in the preceding decade, no one had any trouble swallowing his BS a third time around in the CR.

Outsiders look at Chinese and their industriousness and thing 'CPC can tell them to take over the world and they will do so diligently'. But in reality, they are phenomenally inward looking in their acts of violence. The kind of records they wrack up in death tolls reminds me of this video.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 01 May 2017 08:54

A ve-ry interesting blog by a white male expat in China responding to blog posts about expat white men in China by white women

A lot of information about why expat men like to f*ck Chinese women - what's in for them. Why the women are as they are and some information and statistics about China

http://chinabounder.blogspot.in/

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby chola » 01 May 2017 11:23

On Wall Street, one of the most coveted overseas posting is China. A booming economy where an ambitious gora corporate warrior can make his bones is only one of the attractions. lol

A young gora, still an intern, told me that the moment he landed there he felt he was in paradise. "Fvcking hot girls everywhere" that he KNEW were attracted to him. I asked how he was so certain and he said "I don't know but it could be just the vibes they give off from their bodies. But you have to feel it to understand." Then I ask him, "Do you have to be white to feel this?" He said "Probably."

Their "bodies" is a common term you hear from gora chini trade veterans. Seemingly in constant comparison to their own wimmen. Her slim body this, her flat stomach that. It seems hex is everywhere around them. Goddam, I thought the white man really do have a heaven on earth set aside for him.

In all my years of dating and being married to my chini-American SHQ, I never once had to fend off any hostilities from a chini male but I was on constant guard and in constant combat against fvcking goras.

Which made me think of two things when analyzing geo-politics.

One, it is easy as hell to set chini-baited honey traps for gora politicians, military officers, MNC managers and researchers for whatever information and design Beijing desires. It would be dam surprise if they didn't have the plans to the F-35 or a switch that Cisco makes.

Two, chini male culture is exceptionally beta. If you cannot get your dander up to fight a horde of white men fvcking your women with a complete sense of entitlement then I doubt you'll be able to get it up over some oxygen-deprived rocks next to India.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Deans » 01 May 2017 11:36

John Keay's excellent though very detailed History of China provides some interesting insights.
The Chinese script has been almost unchanged since the beginning of their recorded history - something written in say 1000 BC has about 50%
similarity with their current script. Coupled with their mania for recording everything their emperor did, it gives the Chinese an excellent understanding of their history (and the ability to re-interpret it) compared to Indian history.
The Chinese view is that they have pretty much always had the biggest empire in History - after all, the Emperor was `master of everything on heaven and earth'. The Mongols and Korean have been co-opted into the current Chinese narrative as being Chinese.

Even when the Chinese world domination story was not true e.g. the Roman empire at its peak was bigger, the rival empires did not last, whereas
the Chinese world dominance (as the chinese interpret it) has been a story across thousands of years. The Chinese humiliation at the hands of the West and the Japanese are short term aberrations. The communist party (supposedly) rid China of those humiliations and has now set up China to take its rightful place as a world leader, with Eleven as master of all on earth, if not heaven.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby ramana » 01 May 2017 22:04

Deans wrote:John Keay's excellent though very detailed History of China provides some interesting insights.
The Chinese script has been almost unchanged since the beginning of their recorded history - something written in say 1000 BC has about 50%
similarity with their current script. Coupled with their mania for recording everything their emperor did, it gives the Chinese an excellent understanding of their history (and the ability to re-interpret it) compared to Indian history.
The Chinese view is that they have pretty much always had the biggest empire in History - after all, the Emperor was `master of everything on heaven and earth'. The Mongols and Korean have been co-opted into the current Chinese narrative as being Chinese.

Even when the Chinese world domination story was not true e.g. the Roman empire at its peak was bigger, the rival empires did not last, whereas
the Chinese world dominance (as the chinese interpret it) has been a story across thousands of years. The Chinese humiliation at the hands of the West and the Japanese are short term aberrations. The communist party (supposedly) rid China of those humiliations and has now set up China to take its rightful place as a world leader, with Eleven as master of all on earth, if not heaven.

It would be a fact check to post the maps of the various dynasties that ruled China. I submit current China is the successor state to the Mongolian dynasty.

If China loses Tibet it will break up into the three states of the warring period which is its natural stable state.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 01 May 2017 22:25

ramana wrote:It would be a fact check to post the maps of the various dynasties that ruled China. I submit current China is the successor state to the Mongolian dynasty.

If China loses Tibet it will break up into the three states of the warring period which is its natural stable state.



PRC tacitly admits that it is a successor state to the Yuan Dynasty, which was a parent dynasty to the Ming and Qing dynasty polities. This is because, China's sovereign rights over Tibet stem from the transfer of sovereign rights of Tibet from Tibet to Kublai Khan of the Yuan dynasty.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Atmavik » 01 May 2017 22:31

ramana wrote:It would be a fact check to post the maps of the various dynasties that ruled China. I submit current China is the successor state to the Mongolian dynasty.

If China loses Tibet it will break up into the three states of the warring period which is its natural stable state.


Ramana Garu,

did you mean the three kingdoms period?

Image

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Suraj » 02 May 2017 02:38

Tibet never was under Chinese suzerainty until the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911), which was founded by Manchu invaders.
Parts of Xinjiang first came under their suzerainty in the Tang Dynasty (618-907) era.
Mongolia came under a Chinese empire the other way around - when the Mongols devastated the Song Dynasty (960-1271) and established the Yuan Dynasty (1271-1368).
What happened between 907 and 960 ? Well after Tang, the second of their three most celebrated dynasties (the others being Han and Ming) the country fell apart as the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period.

Also, Tibet was never a part of Qing Dynasty as a formal province. It was classified as an outer protectorate. This map shows things better. Yellow was China proper of the Qing Empire. Light yellow was protectorates. Orange was the collection of places that paid tribute to Qing at various times. Nepal , Bhutan and Ahom states were all among them. More on this, but shiv's shiver or die laughing thread is a better place for it.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Prem » 02 May 2017 08:12


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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby KLNMurthy » 02 May 2017 22:32

shiv wrote:
SriJoy wrote:
Shiv-ji, can you ask our informative lurker, on why Chinese culture is so dog-eat-dog ? Chinese society evolved in similar fashion as Indian/Mesopotamian/Egyptian : farming society, based on food surprlus. Ie, its a 'land of plenty'. So why do we see such barbarism from such society ? Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Indians, Greeks, etc. were not so barbarous towards one another and that makes sense, given that basic necessities were plentiful in these lands.

HayaGreevaPutra's response
About SriJoy ji's question. This is one of the enduring puzzles of China that nobody has been able to resolve, Because all the material that is Pre-Qin is lost in the "Burning of books and burying of scholars" by Qin Shi huang. All records before his rule , all books, and all languages and scripts before him were destroyed. Completely. The only doctrine that survived was "LEGALISM". So, because we have no info at all regarding their Pre-Qin history beliefs and Philosophies, save for scattered archaeological evidence but none That is documented. This gap of information makes it very difficult to trace the Sociological evolution of Chinese society and what factors influenced it. My guess is the loss of all that guiding philosophy along with Qin Shi huang's narcissistic grandeur and obsession with "Unification" caught on widely but the moderation influence provided by Pre-Qin beliefs and philosophies was lost. Which caused an escalating cycle of Self-perpetuating vicious cycle of bloody warfare. Sort of Like a Perpetual Motion Machine of Violence with no moderating attenuation provided, because the framework of Beliefs and Philosophies ( and the people who studied them and taught them) that provided that moderation were lost.


What an incredibly fascinating and informative thread. Thanks to all the contributors for sharing their knowledge and insights.

One thought I have is about the role of writing and script versus oral memory in making Chinese culture different. Chinese culture is unique in having a pictographic alphabet instead of an alphabet that is phonetic, the latter being the case for all the cultures besides the Chinese. So it raises two questions? (1) to what extent was Chinese knowledge transmission dependent on written sources versus oral memory? and (2) Did the Chinese specialize in oral memory skills anywhere to the level of the Indians, for example?

To make this concrete, imagine some rakshasa emperor of India like Hiranyakasipu trying to make himself into the one source of Everything, and destroying every source of knowledge of other rulers, like Rama, Sibi, or the ruler and his queen in Silappadikkaaram (who kill themselves when they realize they have committed an injustice), and so on. Would it have been possible for him to do it? We know Hiranyakasipu tried and failed in erasing all knowledge of Vishnu; he couldn't even prevent his son Prahlada from becoming a devotee. Maybe the reason was that his task wasn't as simple as burning every book that was about Vishnu; since all the knowledge about Vishnu resided in the heads of the common people in the form of stories and poems and songs, who could not be monitored 24/7, and of course it wouldn't make sense to kill off all the people.

I hope the gurus on this thread can shed some light on this aspect. If indeed there is a link between the technology and tools of Chinese knowledge transmission and their culture at large, it might be a dramatic illustration of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (which incidentally was--IIRC--developed at the Theosphical Society in Adayaru, Chennai).

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Suraj » 03 May 2017 00:44

Chinese have a predominantly written record of history, and not oral transmission. This is because imperial history was a very important aspect of imperial rule, and as posted earlier, every new dynasty sought to portray themselves as heroes or avengers. True story: when the Ming Dynasty was overrun by the Manchus who created the Qing Dynasty in 1644, the last Ming ruler, the Chongzhen Emperor ran off into the garden and hung himself from a well known tree there. The Qing turned around to legitimize their rule by asserting that they were 'avenging the emperor' . There's an explicit process of acquiring and asserting the Mandate of Heaven, by each dynasty. This MoH thing is a rugby ball that the Chinese have repeatedly fought incredibly gory wars to gain the power to assert.

Coming back to written vs oral Chinese, the Chinese script is uniform across the country (almost), but pronunciation is widely divergent unless you establish the use of a single dialect . You can give a sentence in Chinese to a dozen people to read, and they'll say the same thing , but in a dozen different sounding ways. The same words when read, are phonetically expressed differently in various dialects. The 'standard Chinese' (Putonghua) is just Beijing dialect, enforced on everyone. There still exists several vibrant local dialects, most notably Cantonese, and Shanghainese.

So the lack of oral uniformity is a barrier to oral transmission. Written records were therefore the predominant way. However, written Chinese is quite impenetrable , especially traditional characters. PRC promulgated a policy of character simplification soon after its founding, since it's quite difficult to write traditional Chinese characters. The complexity also hampered PRC literacy campaigns. A second round of simplification was planned in the late 1970s, but was abandoned.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 03 May 2017 02:12

Oral history works for culture, religion, etc. Not for history. This is because, history is a 'social endeavour', not a personal one. My life is quite literally, unaffected by whether i know of Ashoka/Virakamaditya or not.
This is why,along with the destruction of our universities, IMO, Indian history is possibly the worst documented history of an old world 'mega-civilization' and has more gaps and holes in it than Chinese, West Asian or Mediterranean. This is also why we know virtually nothing of Russian or Eastern European history prior to 1000 years ago, when they started to write stuff down.

As for the Chinese ideographic writing systems, it is directly a product of Qin Shih Huang's tyrannical policies. He/his advisors knew that China had a lot of languages at that time and came up with this system, so that regardless of what language you speak, you can still read the imperial diktats.

The idea was 'if this symbol represents a house, that is a man, that is 'to give', that is the symbol for king and that is 100 bucks, then no-matter whether you speak Chinese or Bengali, if you can read according to our ideographic script, then you will read it as 'man of house gives 100 bucks to the king'

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Rudradev » 03 May 2017 02:50

SriJoy wrote:Oral history works for culture, religion, etc. Not for history. This is because, history is a 'social endeavour', not a personal one. My life is quite literally, unaffected by whether i know of Ashoka/Virakamaditya or not.
'


Aiyyo.

"History" is overrated. In India we have itihasa (literally, "it happened here"). It is both a personal and a social endeavour, because dharmic civilization doesn't make this categorical distinction in a lot of ways that the normative restrictions of Western "civilization" compel it to. We aren't a history-centric culture in the sense of "history" that the West relies on to promulgate the authority of its institutions.

"Itihasa" affords the capacity for endless contextual reinterpretation of historical narrative without changing its essence... something the "West" has only discovered through postmodernism, which itself is a barely disguised appropriation from our own knowledge systems. Western conservatives are terrified of reinterpretation or "revisionism" as they call it, because they are neurotically obsessed with the idea that adhering absolutely to one single, unalterable, "authoritative" historical narrative is crucial to maintaining the very core of their identity.

We know better. Just as the polymerases that replicate genetic material allow themselves the making of "errors", and chromosomes themselves afford the capacity for recombination, all the while preserving the essential contours, attributes, and viability of that which is being reproduced... our mechanisms of transmitting knowledge (particularly via oral transmission) are designed to allow for the possible evolution of ideas in response to a changing temporal context. The West clings white-knuckled to the corpse of Abraham for its self definition. You walk hand in hand with your living father and mother, and some day your living son or daughter walk hand in hand with you; and always the eddies of temporary change coexist with the undercurrent of perennial continuity.

It scarcely matters that the Bhils, the Indonesians, the Andhras, the Manipuris, the Gujaratis all weave their folklore into local retellings of the Ramayana or Mahabharata, so that there is no authoritative, single, History-with-a-capital-H version of these epic narratives. We do not lean on our itihasa to define us; rather, we trust ourselves to preserve and enrich our identity by continuing to define and redefine our itihasa as times change.

Again, I'd recommend Rajiv Malhotra, Vamsee Juluri, S.N. Balagangadhara, and Sanjeev Sanyal for starters. I would also look at the Out of India thread at BRF (the current one and its previous avatar) for more discussion on this subject.

For that matter, I'd suggest taking any further discussion of Indian traditions to some other thread and leave this one for discussions focused on China.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Agnimitra » 03 May 2017 04:04

KLNMurthy wrote:If indeed there is a link between the technology and tools of Chinese knowledge transmission and their culture at large, it might be a dramatic illustration of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (which incidentally was--IIRC--developed at the Theosphical Society in Adayaru, Chennai).

To add to what Suraj said:

Chinese imperium used a standardized ideographic writing system to "unify" communication. So at that time, they destroyed all alternative forms of writing, and mass book burnings took place to ensure this. Scholars in different component kingdoms were slaughtered if they tried to preserve the old books. In place of diverse written standards, one pan-Chinese writing system was put into place. However, diverse spoken languages continue to exist, because of the nature of this writing system. The same "character" could be pronounced "house" in one tongue and "ghar" on another. The idea was conveyed uniformly, but the languages differed. It is to be noted that these were not just "dialects", but distinct languages across China. There are various estimates, but recently I spoke with a Chinese scholar and she told me there are/were as many as 75 distinct, mutually unintelligible languages across China. All these were unified via writing system. Thus, an imperial decree could be transmitted across linguistic boundaries.

The complex nature of the writing system also meant that full literacy was limited to a thin aristocratic class only. Thus, for millennia, the average Chinese has been even more conditioned to "knowledge" being limited to an exclusive class, with just functional literacy permeating the masses. [Whereas in India, literacy in the regional languages - not Sanskrit - was far more widespread through various vocational guilds.]

This quasi-bicameral linguistic ecology - many spoken languages, unified by an ideographic writing system - persisted for a long time and worked well to unify and even subsume various cultures into a "Chinese" culture. They tried to subsume other peripheral cultures (like Korean, etc) via their script. So important is the script to Chinese civilizational identity, that in modern times, when there was a debate under the Commies about whether that script was practicable, a nationalist lobby prevailed and kept the script with a simplification, rather than switch to the other alternative - Romanized Pinyin - and then undertook the most massive literacy campaign in history to make the masses fully literate in this script.

There was always some effort to also introduce a uniform spoken language - usually choosing the language around capital regions. e.g., Confucius is supposed to have narrated using a language called Ya Yan as a standard. But it never really worked.

Then, with the arrival of telecommunications, that quasi-bicameral linguistic ecology has been destroyed - because now they have not only standardized script, but also spoken language - with the Beijing language becoming national language, and all other languages left to die. It is a massive death of dozens of distinct languages. Nevertheless, Chinese identity rests heavily on language and script, to distinguish it from the Other.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby anupmisra » 03 May 2017 18:01

Chinese behaving badly (in Australia)

Chinese diamond talks delegates 'hijack mic' in Taiwan protest

Australia was hosting a Kimberly Process conference on controlling conflict diamonds in Perth on Monday. But the Chinese group were angered by the presence of a Taiwanese delegation, and noisily interrupted the official opening ceremony.
China .. insists that other countries cannot have diplomatic relations with both China and Taiwan, so few countries recognise the island's independence.
the Chinese group "hijacked the microphone" during a traditional Aboriginal welcoming ceremony, as a senior official was introducing Foreign Minister Julie Bishop.They demanded to know whether the Taiwan group - Rough Diamond Trading Entity of Chinese Taipei - had been officially invited.
A discussion session later in the morning was also abandoned because of continual interruptions by officials from African countries in support of China's position.
"The chair had to withdraw the invitation to the Taiwanese following objections from China and several other delegations to the former's presence during the opening session, in order to enable the meeting to continue,"
A spokesman for the Chinese consulate in Perth told the Sydney Morning Herald: "The head of the Chinese delegation expressed high respect for the traditional owners of the land."


Money!!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-39777190

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 May 2017 23:02

Language is not quite so homogenised in China. Cantonese speakers have a deep resentment against the imposition of Mandarin. Their disproportionate influence to the wealth generated around Guangdong is notable.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Falijee » 03 May 2017 23:39

China to launch Wikipedia rival in 2018 -BBC

China is to launch an online version of its national encyclopaedia next year, to compete with Wikipedia.Officials said more than 20,000 people had been hired to work on the project, which will feature 300,000 entries at about 1,000 words each.
Unlike Wikipedia, it will be created by selected scholars from state-run universities rather than being openly editable by volunteers.Wikipedia is available in China, but some of its content is blocked. Censorship and alternative facts :roll:
Currently, users on the mainland can read some Wikipedia content, but searches for sensitive topics such as the Dalai Lama and President Xi Jinping are blocked.
Last week, Turkish authorities blocked access to Wikipedia within the country without giving a reason.In 2014, Russia also announced plans for an alternative version of Wikipedia, with the stated aim of providing better information about the country than was available on the platform. Pakistan is also expected to join the "Chinese Internet And Satellite System , once the High Speed Internet Cables from the north of Pakistan to the south of Pakistan is complete under the CPEC !

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby anupmisra » 04 May 2017 02:09



In another source, this is the reason stated why the chinis must have their own source of true facts.

China plans to launch its own online encyclopaedia next year, hoping to build a “cultural Great Wall” that can rival Wikipedia as a go-to information source for Chinese Internet users who Beijing fears are being corrupted by foreign influences.
China is under pressure to write its own encyclopaedia so it can guide public thought
The project, which will be under the guidance of the state-owned China Publishing Group, “must have Chinese characteristics,” he wrote, adding it would be a “symbol of the country's cultural and technological development” and increase its softpower and international influence.
So far over 20,000 scholars and academics have been enlisted to compile the project, which aims to have more than 300,000 entries by its 2018 launch


Will one of the entries be on Tiananmen Square protests of 1989? The 20,000 "scholars" - are they the so-called 50-cent army now looking to work for a buck? Meanwhile,

Beijing issued a new restriction for online freedoms, requiring Chinese Internet users to provide their real names when accessing online news sources.


https://www.dawn.com/news/1330867/china ... -wikipedia


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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby nacchiketa » 29 Jun 2017 12:53

Although not exactly related to boastfulness, post relates to insight into Chinese behavior.
Recently I read a book by Tim Clissold " Chinese Rules".Tim has studied Chinese language and worked in China for 25 years. The book contains his understanding of Chinese behavior in form of five rules. I am quoting first four rules only as the fifth one is quite lengthy. The rules are not 100% clear on stand alone basis but still contain great value. For better understanding, the book may be read.

First Rule:

China is a civilization masquerading as a state. Its essential elements have survived the collapse of central authority and conquest by outsiders over periods so long that there is no equivalent in the West. Endowed with centuries of experience, China will not just cast itself in the image of the West, playing a game of catch-up; China has rules of its own. They are more elusive than ours; they come from accepted modes of thought and unspoken assumptions rather than concise written commandments like “thou shalt not steal.” But when the team in Mayfair tried to force a solution in Quzhou that fit their Western context with tightly worded contracts, they were trying to square the circle. The spectacular achievements of free-market capitalism sometimes make it impossible for Westerners truly to believe that there may be a different pathway to success. Many view the difference between China and the West simply as one of timing rather than substance; they believe that the Chinese will eventually “see sense” and conform to the Western model. While it will continue to evolve and reform, and globalization will pull us all more closely together, China will stick to its own path to development. In order to deal most effectively with China, foreigners should adapt to the reality that China has its own set of uniquely Chinese rules.

Second Rule:

China’s historical experience has left its people with an intense dread of instability. China is not so tightly bound together by anything more than a common acceptance of its Chineseness. Officials seek stability above all else and this drives policy in every corner of China’s vast bureaucracy. There is no brooding and all-powerful tyrant at the center; China is as loose as a sheet of sand. All but the strongest and most diligent emperors had their edicts routinely thwarted. The tenth Ming emperor wrote in the sixteenth century, “We live deep within the Nine-Walled Palace, and though We stretch Our thoughts over the entire realm, there are places where Our ears and eyes do not reach.” Red-topped instructions from the State Council may have replaced the vermillion brushstrokes of the emperor but policy can still be best understood as a ceaseless search for order. The Chinese ruler is engaged in a constant struggle for unity, balancing priorities in different sections of society to maintain overall stability rather than just issuing directives from above. Whether it is in balancing the rapidly growing wealth along the coast with the needs of China’s poorer western regions, or reforming state-owned enterprises but at the same time providing jobs and social security, the Chinese ruler must seek harmony; this endless struggle against chaos is visible in almost every government strategy. Public protests occur in China every day and officials risk punishment for failing to cope with unrest. In our specific case, the income from carbon reductions at refrigerant plants in China was big enough to upset the balance in sections of the whole chemicals industry, so officials would not just wave through Wang’s application for carbon income—they felt compelled to consider the other factories in the north of China rather than just let Wang take the money. China is engaged in a timeless quest for stability. Almost every action of the government and the individuals within it can be understood and predicted in that light.

Third Rule:

Chinese methods for dealing with conflict and competition are indirect. The traditional Chinese method is to bide time—for decades if necessary—until external factors are favorable, use spies and counterspies to gather information, disrupt the enemy’s alliances, sow discord among his followers, frustrate his strategies, and use the strength of another. These are realities that Westerners need to learn how to deal with. Complaining that it’s somehow “unfair” is the equivalent of the Brits grumbling that in the American War of Independence, the Yankees wouldn’t wear red coats to make it easier to shoot them. We don’t need to agree with any of this, but we do need to understand it. “Melons ripen,” Mao said. “Don’t pick them before they’re ripe. When they’re ready, they’ll fall off of their own accord.” The Chinese way is to overcome an opponent by building up a psychological position that is so dominant that the outcome of any conflict becomes a foregone conclusion. The indispensable preliminary to battle is to attack the enemy’s mind.
Although we did not know it at the time, we were soon to find out that our understanding of Chinese tactics would be tested to the limits by conflicts that lay on the road ahead. We were soon to discover that, in Sunzi’s words, the Chinese art of war is indeed “a matter that should on no account be neglected.”

Fourth Rule:

The Chinese have a deep tradition of pragmatic realism rather than fixed, value-based rules; the maxim “seek truth from facts” dates from the Han Dynasty in the first century BC. Centuries earlier, Mencius had rejected excessive theorizing when he wrote “better not to have a book at all rather than believe everything that’s in it.” A thousand years later, the Song Dynasty reformer Zhu Xi wrote that “actual investigation of things is the surest way to get knowledge.” This emphasis on practice-based investigation rather than rigid rules makes the Chinese some of the most flexible people on earth. In the 1920s, Marxism was just borrowed from the West to help fix some of China’s problems, and later dumped when it was no longer useful. When China outgrew Maoism, the new leaders didn’t argue about the theory; they just repackaged it as “socialism with Chinese characteristics”—even though the “characteristics” were all capitalist. Each dogma was merely used as a stepping-stone across the wider river.
In our carbon business, as we faced the last obstacle to issuing credits from our projects, we were about to find out how much can be achieved using Deng’s practice-based approach to problems. We needed to remember that when Deng promoted practice over dogma, instead of proclaiming “ideology is unimportant” and provoking years of pointless arguments about principles, he had been content with the Delphic observation that came to define a generation: “What does it matter if a cat is black or white, so long as it catches mice?”

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 16 Jul 2017 17:05

Resurrecting this thread: Let me repeat an earlier comment that I made on this thread:
All said and done it appears that Chinese contempt, criticism and boorish behaviour towards Indians is their way of saying " We are greater than you and will say anything we like and you can do nothing about it"

This attitude has shown up in media articles and on comments to my videos. Indians are supposed to bow down and accept their inferiority and listen to lectures about what we should be doing. This advice is often mixed with racist comments

How should Indians behave in response to this?

1. Should we do nothing
2. Complain to international commission of human rights
or
3. Show equal contempt for the Chinese

If we do nothing, it is a sign that we accept Chinese criticism. In fact all Indians who openly admire the Chinese and criticise other Indians are doing exactly what the Chinese expect Indians to do and are handing to the Chinese the respect that they want

Even if we feel that India is not doing well in some area we simply must desist from comparing India with China simply to win an argument and lecture fellow Indians. We have this deep need to lecture others about Indian weaknesses and praise others possible because many Indians believe that this is "great honesty and objectivity" and the person giving the lecture has great insight from his travels and his knowledge of other people and is fully qualified to bash Indians

But that only reinforces the stereotypes that the Chinese already believe. We are playing the Chinese game the way the Chinese want the game played. Belligerence, contempt and even racist descriptions of China are the way to deal with them. We simply must stop bashing Indians who are critical of China.

Ironic that we must learn that blind pride in one's own is sometimes essential in dealing with others. Chinese and Pakis seem to have that instinctively.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby panduranghari » 17 Jul 2017 18:16

Suraj wrote:
China is home to the majority of the worst wars ever in history.


http://uk.businessinsider.com/real-visi ... ?r=US&IR=T
Tsim said. “In spite of all of the intelligence, the learning, and the experience of the Chinese people over 5,000 years, they have not come up with a system of government which can deal with the effective and peaceful transfer of power. In the West, you do it through the ballot box. So Brexit is Brexit. You accept it. But in China, the fight goes on.”

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby panduranghari » 18 Jul 2017 19:48

Singha wrote:The sense of finding satisfaction in belonging to a greater whole and cause is probably how radical islam is able to mobilize across vast areas..the horde..the kabila..the qaum..the mob...it gives power to the weak and a chance of grabbing something they cannot do alone.


According to Venkatesh Rao of Ribbonfarm https://www.ribbonfarm.com/ there are 3 type of thinkers;
1. Those who really think through and research the issue weighing up all the possibilities they can think about.
2.Those who think in binary- good/bad, black/white.
3. Those who think tribally. Tribal thinkers will have their own opinio but wont disagree with the tribe due to the risk of being disowned.

CCP perhaps makes the majority Chinese tribal thinkers.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Pulikeshi » 20 Jul 2017 10:34

Suraj wrote:The purpose of this thread is to get Indians to understand what drives Chinese to behave like they do. To understand, given a situation of interaction, how will they likely behave . We need to stop thinking in terms of guidelines *we* apply, and learn to think how they think in such a situation .


  1. Monkey see - Monkey do: The Chinese think they have to mirror USA and all the games in Asia. In their G2 strategy they want to replace the USA - in this they are paying scant attention to what has happened in history between status quo powers and rising powers. Their surprise and negligence of India comes from what they perceive as Western (USA's) negligence of India - in this they have grossly misunderstood the game. They will be somewhat surprised that India will align herself with the USA even if there is no strategic one.
  2. Command & Control vs. Social Networks: The current Chinese generation has no sense of the complicated dance required in the interplay to manage an ever increasingly complex world. This is also the reason - Chinese are individually excellent academics, but make for very poor managers and especially leaders in general. The one-child policy has made this natural tendency quite extreme in that, increasingly the position is not just of entitlement, but one of screaming urgency to meet demands!
  3. Too much ZamZam Cola: More recently I've met otherwise right thinking Chinese who have asked why would CPEC/OBOR be any different than TPP and what the USA is trying to do in Asia? They have a genuine bewilderment at India not joining because after all - CPEC/OBOR is China's offering to world to participate in their economic miracle - am not sure if they have drunk thier own zamzam cola!
  4. Bark and no bite!: They have pretty much dismembered India verbally in their state controlled media - this is really a surprisingly shrill response with no strategic gain (unless India blinks!) Time and again, even 1962, has been done by the Chinese after a wink and nod from USA. So only a few independent actions - like SCS, testing missiles via NK, bums via Paki, stand out as innovative thinking...
  5. Nibblers'Us: They will empirically pursue a strategy via death by a thousand nibbles! There is no backing off with an agreement and winning with them, they will keep coming at it as surely as raktha-beeja-sura! India for its part will not understand this as it is going to follow a contracts based approach to geo-political relationships

My two yuan - China is an approval seeking power... but in their secret dreams they dream of becoming Kim Jong of all of Asia with USA's wink!

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Karthik S » 20 Jul 2017 12:47

Image

Anit Ghosh @Indianit07 11m11 minutes ago
More
Whole Punjab Unit of Chinese company #OPPO resigned from job after Chinese Official passed Derogatory & Racist remarks on India.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 20 Jul 2017 14:34

^^ My compliments to these bold patriots. The rest of us must live up to this and keep off Cheeni products as far as is possible for now - with the long term goal of eliminating them.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 20 Jul 2017 14:50

>>Chinese are individually excellent academics, but make for very poor managers and especially leaders in general

this is evident in neutral venues like usa also. there tend to be a lot more indians in team manager, general manager or product manager positions that need working with people.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Rudradev » 20 Jul 2017 21:29

Pulikeshi wrote:
Monkey see - Monkey do: The Chinese think they have to mirror USA and all the games in Asia. In their G2 strategy they want to replace the USA - in this they are paying scant attention to what has happened in history between status quo powers and rising powers. Their surprise and negligence of India comes from what they perceive as Western (USA's) negligence of India - in this they have grossly misunderstood the game.
!


Very astute observation.

The astounding thing about today's Chinese is that... even though they have their own well-established historical tradition of viewing India through an indigenous Chinese lens for many centuries (Yuan Chang, Fa Hien etc.) their current view of India relies 100% on looking through the Anglo-American lens.

Another pathology of the cultural revolution, to be sure, when they utterly destroyed and defecated on their own traditions and historiography... making it necessary to ape Western historiography wholesale after Mao died and they realized they needed some sort of national narrative beyond the Rittre Led Book.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Iyersan » 20 Jul 2017 21:32

shiv wrote:^^ My compliments to these bold patriots. The rest of us must live up to this and keep off Cheeni products as far as is possible for now - with the long term goal of eliminating them.

I have to deal with Ford China on a regular basis. Most are little emperors. How can we sign a lopsided trade deal with slit eyes.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sanjaykumar » 20 Jul 2017 22:07

I can say with some confidence that those Panjabis did have dealings with racism, only they weren't the ones on the receiving end.

BTW, can we abjure the slitty eyed remarks? It is most unbecoming of educated people.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sanjaykumar » 20 Jul 2017 22:35

The astounding thing about today's Chinese is that... even though they have their own well-established historical tradition of viewing India through an indigenous Chinese lens for many centuries (Yuan Chang, Fa Hien etc.) their current view of India relies 100% on looking through the Anglo-American lens.


One used to see this in the Japanese, before things went south; they had formed the most comical stereotypes of Jews and Blacks. Definitely as surrogacy

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Kashi » 21 Jul 2017 05:53

sanjaykumar wrote:One used to see this in the Japanese, before things went south; they had formed the most comical stereotypes of Jews and Blacks. Definitely as surrogacy


The difference is that Japanese views were shaped by the 300 years of self-imposed isolation before Commodore Perry threatened to burn them down were the gates not re-opened. A sudden influx of men and ideas from the West thoroughly flummoxed them and their reactions wereall over the place.

Chinese on the other hand, were never truly isolated, but they were colonised and then went through a series of upheavals such as the civil war and the cultural revolution. So maybe it's a case of convergent viewpoints that arrived via different paths.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sanjaykumar » 21 Jul 2017 06:08

Possible, but I suspect it has more to do with aping your superiors, including their prejudices. A very insincere form of flattery.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby titash » 21 Jul 2017 20:53

SK-ji, this is actually the most perceptive one-liner I have come across in a while.

The hatred that my bangladeshi/pakistani acquaintances display for the "zionists" is entirely formulated by zero personal contact with abovementioned "zionists" and entirely by what their bada bhai superiors (arabs and turks) think.
Last edited by titash on 21 Jul 2017 20:54, edited 1 time in total.


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