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Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

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sanjaykumar
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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 May 2017 23:02

Language is not quite so homogenised in China. Cantonese speakers have a deep resentment against the imposition of Mandarin. Their disproportionate influence to the wealth generated around Guangdong is notable.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Falijee » 03 May 2017 23:39

China to launch Wikipedia rival in 2018 -BBC

China is to launch an online version of its national encyclopaedia next year, to compete with Wikipedia.Officials said more than 20,000 people had been hired to work on the project, which will feature 300,000 entries at about 1,000 words each.
Unlike Wikipedia, it will be created by selected scholars from state-run universities rather than being openly editable by volunteers.Wikipedia is available in China, but some of its content is blocked. Censorship and alternative facts :roll:
Currently, users on the mainland can read some Wikipedia content, but searches for sensitive topics such as the Dalai Lama and President Xi Jinping are blocked.
Last week, Turkish authorities blocked access to Wikipedia within the country without giving a reason.In 2014, Russia also announced plans for an alternative version of Wikipedia, with the stated aim of providing better information about the country than was available on the platform. Pakistan is also expected to join the "Chinese Internet And Satellite System , once the High Speed Internet Cables from the north of Pakistan to the south of Pakistan is complete under the CPEC !

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby anupmisra » 04 May 2017 02:09



In another source, this is the reason stated why the chinis must have their own source of true facts.

China plans to launch its own online encyclopaedia next year, hoping to build a “cultural Great Wall” that can rival Wikipedia as a go-to information source for Chinese Internet users who Beijing fears are being corrupted by foreign influences.
China is under pressure to write its own encyclopaedia so it can guide public thought
The project, which will be under the guidance of the state-owned China Publishing Group, “must have Chinese characteristics,” he wrote, adding it would be a “symbol of the country's cultural and technological development” and increase its softpower and international influence.
So far over 20,000 scholars and academics have been enlisted to compile the project, which aims to have more than 300,000 entries by its 2018 launch


Will one of the entries be on Tiananmen Square protests of 1989? The 20,000 "scholars" - are they the so-called 50-cent army now looking to work for a buck? Meanwhile,

Beijing issued a new restriction for online freedoms, requiring Chinese Internet users to provide their real names when accessing online news sources.


https://www.dawn.com/news/1330867/china ... -wikipedia


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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby nacchiketa » 29 Jun 2017 12:53

Although not exactly related to boastfulness, post relates to insight into Chinese behavior.
Recently I read a book by Tim Clissold " Chinese Rules".Tim has studied Chinese language and worked in China for 25 years. The book contains his understanding of Chinese behavior in form of five rules. I am quoting first four rules only as the fifth one is quite lengthy. The rules are not 100% clear on stand alone basis but still contain great value. For better understanding, the book may be read.

First Rule:

China is a civilization masquerading as a state. Its essential elements have survived the collapse of central authority and conquest by outsiders over periods so long that there is no equivalent in the West. Endowed with centuries of experience, China will not just cast itself in the image of the West, playing a game of catch-up; China has rules of its own. They are more elusive than ours; they come from accepted modes of thought and unspoken assumptions rather than concise written commandments like “thou shalt not steal.” But when the team in Mayfair tried to force a solution in Quzhou that fit their Western context with tightly worded contracts, they were trying to square the circle. The spectacular achievements of free-market capitalism sometimes make it impossible for Westerners truly to believe that there may be a different pathway to success. Many view the difference between China and the West simply as one of timing rather than substance; they believe that the Chinese will eventually “see sense” and conform to the Western model. While it will continue to evolve and reform, and globalization will pull us all more closely together, China will stick to its own path to development. In order to deal most effectively with China, foreigners should adapt to the reality that China has its own set of uniquely Chinese rules.

Second Rule:

China’s historical experience has left its people with an intense dread of instability. China is not so tightly bound together by anything more than a common acceptance of its Chineseness. Officials seek stability above all else and this drives policy in every corner of China’s vast bureaucracy. There is no brooding and all-powerful tyrant at the center; China is as loose as a sheet of sand. All but the strongest and most diligent emperors had their edicts routinely thwarted. The tenth Ming emperor wrote in the sixteenth century, “We live deep within the Nine-Walled Palace, and though We stretch Our thoughts over the entire realm, there are places where Our ears and eyes do not reach.” Red-topped instructions from the State Council may have replaced the vermillion brushstrokes of the emperor but policy can still be best understood as a ceaseless search for order. The Chinese ruler is engaged in a constant struggle for unity, balancing priorities in different sections of society to maintain overall stability rather than just issuing directives from above. Whether it is in balancing the rapidly growing wealth along the coast with the needs of China’s poorer western regions, or reforming state-owned enterprises but at the same time providing jobs and social security, the Chinese ruler must seek harmony; this endless struggle against chaos is visible in almost every government strategy. Public protests occur in China every day and officials risk punishment for failing to cope with unrest. In our specific case, the income from carbon reductions at refrigerant plants in China was big enough to upset the balance in sections of the whole chemicals industry, so officials would not just wave through Wang’s application for carbon income—they felt compelled to consider the other factories in the north of China rather than just let Wang take the money. China is engaged in a timeless quest for stability. Almost every action of the government and the individuals within it can be understood and predicted in that light.

Third Rule:

Chinese methods for dealing with conflict and competition are indirect. The traditional Chinese method is to bide time—for decades if necessary—until external factors are favorable, use spies and counterspies to gather information, disrupt the enemy’s alliances, sow discord among his followers, frustrate his strategies, and use the strength of another. These are realities that Westerners need to learn how to deal with. Complaining that it’s somehow “unfair” is the equivalent of the Brits grumbling that in the American War of Independence, the Yankees wouldn’t wear red coats to make it easier to shoot them. We don’t need to agree with any of this, but we do need to understand it. “Melons ripen,” Mao said. “Don’t pick them before they’re ripe. When they’re ready, they’ll fall off of their own accord.” The Chinese way is to overcome an opponent by building up a psychological position that is so dominant that the outcome of any conflict becomes a foregone conclusion. The indispensable preliminary to battle is to attack the enemy’s mind.
Although we did not know it at the time, we were soon to find out that our understanding of Chinese tactics would be tested to the limits by conflicts that lay on the road ahead. We were soon to discover that, in Sunzi’s words, the Chinese art of war is indeed “a matter that should on no account be neglected.”

Fourth Rule:

The Chinese have a deep tradition of pragmatic realism rather than fixed, value-based rules; the maxim “seek truth from facts” dates from the Han Dynasty in the first century BC. Centuries earlier, Mencius had rejected excessive theorizing when he wrote “better not to have a book at all rather than believe everything that’s in it.” A thousand years later, the Song Dynasty reformer Zhu Xi wrote that “actual investigation of things is the surest way to get knowledge.” This emphasis on practice-based investigation rather than rigid rules makes the Chinese some of the most flexible people on earth. In the 1920s, Marxism was just borrowed from the West to help fix some of China’s problems, and later dumped when it was no longer useful. When China outgrew Maoism, the new leaders didn’t argue about the theory; they just repackaged it as “socialism with Chinese characteristics”—even though the “characteristics” were all capitalist. Each dogma was merely used as a stepping-stone across the wider river.
In our carbon business, as we faced the last obstacle to issuing credits from our projects, we were about to find out how much can be achieved using Deng’s practice-based approach to problems. We needed to remember that when Deng promoted practice over dogma, instead of proclaiming “ideology is unimportant” and provoking years of pointless arguments about principles, he had been content with the Delphic observation that came to define a generation: “What does it matter if a cat is black or white, so long as it catches mice?”

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 16 Jul 2017 17:05

Resurrecting this thread: Let me repeat an earlier comment that I made on this thread:
All said and done it appears that Chinese contempt, criticism and boorish behaviour towards Indians is their way of saying " We are greater than you and will say anything we like and you can do nothing about it"

This attitude has shown up in media articles and on comments to my videos. Indians are supposed to bow down and accept their inferiority and listen to lectures about what we should be doing. This advice is often mixed with racist comments

How should Indians behave in response to this?

1. Should we do nothing
2. Complain to international commission of human rights
or
3. Show equal contempt for the Chinese

If we do nothing, it is a sign that we accept Chinese criticism. In fact all Indians who openly admire the Chinese and criticise other Indians are doing exactly what the Chinese expect Indians to do and are handing to the Chinese the respect that they want

Even if we feel that India is not doing well in some area we simply must desist from comparing India with China simply to win an argument and lecture fellow Indians. We have this deep need to lecture others about Indian weaknesses and praise others possible because many Indians believe that this is "great honesty and objectivity" and the person giving the lecture has great insight from his travels and his knowledge of other people and is fully qualified to bash Indians

But that only reinforces the stereotypes that the Chinese already believe. We are playing the Chinese game the way the Chinese want the game played. Belligerence, contempt and even racist descriptions of China are the way to deal with them. We simply must stop bashing Indians who are critical of China.

Ironic that we must learn that blind pride in one's own is sometimes essential in dealing with others. Chinese and Pakis seem to have that instinctively.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby panduranghari » 17 Jul 2017 18:16

Suraj wrote:
China is home to the majority of the worst wars ever in history.


http://uk.businessinsider.com/real-visi ... ?r=US&IR=T
Tsim said. “In spite of all of the intelligence, the learning, and the experience of the Chinese people over 5,000 years, they have not come up with a system of government which can deal with the effective and peaceful transfer of power. In the West, you do it through the ballot box. So Brexit is Brexit. You accept it. But in China, the fight goes on.”

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby panduranghari » 18 Jul 2017 19:48

Singha wrote:The sense of finding satisfaction in belonging to a greater whole and cause is probably how radical islam is able to mobilize across vast areas..the horde..the kabila..the qaum..the mob...it gives power to the weak and a chance of grabbing something they cannot do alone.


According to Venkatesh Rao of Ribbonfarm https://www.ribbonfarm.com/ there are 3 type of thinkers;
1. Those who really think through and research the issue weighing up all the possibilities they can think about.
2.Those who think in binary- good/bad, black/white.
3. Those who think tribally. Tribal thinkers will have their own opinio but wont disagree with the tribe due to the risk of being disowned.

CCP perhaps makes the majority Chinese tribal thinkers.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Pulikeshi » 20 Jul 2017 10:34

Suraj wrote:The purpose of this thread is to get Indians to understand what drives Chinese to behave like they do. To understand, given a situation of interaction, how will they likely behave . We need to stop thinking in terms of guidelines *we* apply, and learn to think how they think in such a situation .


  1. Monkey see - Monkey do: The Chinese think they have to mirror USA and all the games in Asia. In their G2 strategy they want to replace the USA - in this they are paying scant attention to what has happened in history between status quo powers and rising powers. Their surprise and negligence of India comes from what they perceive as Western (USA's) negligence of India - in this they have grossly misunderstood the game. They will be somewhat surprised that India will align herself with the USA even if there is no strategic one.
  2. Command & Control vs. Social Networks: The current Chinese generation has no sense of the complicated dance required in the interplay to manage an ever increasingly complex world. This is also the reason - Chinese are individually excellent academics, but make for very poor managers and especially leaders in general. The one-child policy has made this natural tendency quite extreme in that, increasingly the position is not just of entitlement, but one of screaming urgency to meet demands!
  3. Too much ZamZam Cola: More recently I've met otherwise right thinking Chinese who have asked why would CPEC/OBOR be any different than TPP and what the USA is trying to do in Asia? They have a genuine bewilderment at India not joining because after all - CPEC/OBOR is China's offering to world to participate in their economic miracle - am not sure if they have drunk thier own zamzam cola!
  4. Bark and no bite!: They have pretty much dismembered India verbally in their state controlled media - this is really a surprisingly shrill response with no strategic gain (unless India blinks!) Time and again, even 1962, has been done by the Chinese after a wink and nod from USA. So only a few independent actions - like SCS, testing missiles via NK, bums via Paki, stand out as innovative thinking...
  5. Nibblers'Us: They will empirically pursue a strategy via death by a thousand nibbles! There is no backing off with an agreement and winning with them, they will keep coming at it as surely as raktha-beeja-sura! India for its part will not understand this as it is going to follow a contracts based approach to geo-political relationships

My two yuan - China is an approval seeking power... but in their secret dreams they dream of becoming Kim Jong of all of Asia with USA's wink!

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Karthik S » 20 Jul 2017 12:47

Image

Anit Ghosh @Indianit07 11m11 minutes ago
More
Whole Punjab Unit of Chinese company #OPPO resigned from job after Chinese Official passed Derogatory & Racist remarks on India.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 20 Jul 2017 14:34

^^ My compliments to these bold patriots. The rest of us must live up to this and keep off Cheeni products as far as is possible for now - with the long term goal of eliminating them.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 20 Jul 2017 14:50

>>Chinese are individually excellent academics, but make for very poor managers and especially leaders in general

this is evident in neutral venues like usa also. there tend to be a lot more indians in team manager, general manager or product manager positions that need working with people.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Rudradev » 20 Jul 2017 21:29

Pulikeshi wrote:
Monkey see - Monkey do: The Chinese think they have to mirror USA and all the games in Asia. In their G2 strategy they want to replace the USA - in this they are paying scant attention to what has happened in history between status quo powers and rising powers. Their surprise and negligence of India comes from what they perceive as Western (USA's) negligence of India - in this they have grossly misunderstood the game.
!


Very astute observation.

The astounding thing about today's Chinese is that... even though they have their own well-established historical tradition of viewing India through an indigenous Chinese lens for many centuries (Yuan Chang, Fa Hien etc.) their current view of India relies 100% on looking through the Anglo-American lens.

Another pathology of the cultural revolution, to be sure, when they utterly destroyed and defecated on their own traditions and historiography... making it necessary to ape Western historiography wholesale after Mao died and they realized they needed some sort of national narrative beyond the Rittre Led Book.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Iyersan » 20 Jul 2017 21:32

shiv wrote:^^ My compliments to these bold patriots. The rest of us must live up to this and keep off Cheeni products as far as is possible for now - with the long term goal of eliminating them.

I have to deal with Ford China on a regular basis. Most are little emperors. How can we sign a lopsided trade deal with slit eyes.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sanjaykumar » 20 Jul 2017 22:07

I can say with some confidence that those Panjabis did have dealings with racism, only they weren't the ones on the receiving end.

BTW, can we abjure the slitty eyed remarks? It is most unbecoming of educated people.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sanjaykumar » 20 Jul 2017 22:35

The astounding thing about today's Chinese is that... even though they have their own well-established historical tradition of viewing India through an indigenous Chinese lens for many centuries (Yuan Chang, Fa Hien etc.) their current view of India relies 100% on looking through the Anglo-American lens.


One used to see this in the Japanese, before things went south; they had formed the most comical stereotypes of Jews and Blacks. Definitely as surrogacy

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Kashi » 21 Jul 2017 05:53

sanjaykumar wrote:One used to see this in the Japanese, before things went south; they had formed the most comical stereotypes of Jews and Blacks. Definitely as surrogacy


The difference is that Japanese views were shaped by the 300 years of self-imposed isolation before Commodore Perry threatened to burn them down were the gates not re-opened. A sudden influx of men and ideas from the West thoroughly flummoxed them and their reactions wereall over the place.

Chinese on the other hand, were never truly isolated, but they were colonised and then went through a series of upheavals such as the civil war and the cultural revolution. So maybe it's a case of convergent viewpoints that arrived via different paths.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sanjaykumar » 21 Jul 2017 06:08

Possible, but I suspect it has more to do with aping your superiors, including their prejudices. A very insincere form of flattery.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby titash » 21 Jul 2017 20:53

SK-ji, this is actually the most perceptive one-liner I have come across in a while.

The hatred that my bangladeshi/pakistani acquaintances display for the "zionists" is entirely formulated by zero personal contact with abovementioned "zionists" and entirely by what their bada bhai superiors (arabs and turks) think.
Last edited by titash on 21 Jul 2017 20:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sanjaykumar » 21 Jul 2017 23:27

I am not culturally sensitive to the ji, please do dispense with it.

Judaism and Islam is a tribal feud born in the desert wholly the responsibility of the latter. It is a type of Jungian race memory demonstrating the power of a meme.

Daniel Pearls' Pakistani killer had him recite 'My father was a Jew, I am a Jew". (I hope the Israelis secured their justice over that).

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby panduranghari » 23 Jul 2017 14:24

x post

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6863&start=5320#p2189079

ricky_v wrote:This is not the right thread, but the china watch thread is locked .
https://jamestown.org/program/xi-jinping-chinas-traditionalist-restoration/
In 1934, confronted with rising pro-communist sentiments in his country, Chiang Kai-shek, leader of China’s Nationalist Party, launched the neotraditionalist New Life Movement (新生活运动) as part of a comprehensive anti-communist program that sought to use traditional values as a counterweight against Bolshevik-inspired revolutionist ideas. Fast forward to today’s China and the head of China’s Communist Party is actively promoting a wave of neotraditionalism. Communist Party General Secretary Xi Jinping has repeatedly emphasized the need to “advance and enrich outstanding traditional Chinese culture (中华优秀传统文化)” (CCP News, July 22, 2015).In addition to immediate political aims, Xi’s neotraditionalist policy is part of a long-term vision to remake Chinese culture and society by weaving together selected traditional values with contemporary national consciousness.
In politics neotraditionalism means “the deliberate revival and revamping of old cultures, practices, and institutions for use in new political contexts and strategies” (Encyclopedia Britannica). After assuming the presidency, Xi has repeatedly touted traditional Chinese culture to the public. Xi’s emphasis on culture mirrors the strategy of his fallen rival Bo Xilai, whose signature campaign as the party secretary of Chongqing was the neo-Maoist “Sing Red and Strike Black (唱红打黑),” a revival of Mao-era culture and the suppression of criminality. While comparable to Bo on the “strike black” front, Xi’s cultural policy is less about “singing red,” yet it appeals to a much broader base of Chinese conservatives rather than just the extreme Left.

While Xi has emulated Mao’s statecraft in many ways, his neotraditionalism deviates from the Maoist path (China Brief, March 6, 2015). In sharp contrast to the iconoclastic Mao, who viewed the “old society (旧社会)” with contempt, Xi declared traditional thought and culture the “soul (灵魂)” of the nation (Xinhua, August 8, 2016). “Outstanding traditional culture is a country and nation’s basis for continuation and development. Losing it is the same as severing a country and nation’s lifeline” (Phoenix News, September 5, 2016). Thus, “A country and nation’s power and prosperity must always be supported by a flourishing culture. The prosperous development of Chinese culture is the prerequisite to the great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation” (Phoenix News, September 5, 2016).

Xi goes much further than his predecessor Hu Jintao, who also used Confucian rhetoric. Xi believes outstanding traditional culture is the “foundation” of the Party’s culture and “vital wellspring” of the Party’s set of socialist core values (社会主义核心价值观)—an astonishing statement that positioned traditional culture as the basis of the official code of behavior that governs all party members (Guangming Online, June 21; Qiushi, September 13, 2016). In a November 2016 speech to the country’s writers and artists, Xi urged them to “devote major efforts in propagating traditional culture…. Extract essence and draw energy from the treasure vault of Chinese culture…. [And] not to blaspheme ancestors” (Xinhua, November 30, 2016).

Xi’s analog to the “little red book,” titled Classical Aphorisms by Xi Jinping (习近平用典) was published in 2015. The preface, “Draw Power from Chinese Culture” trumpets Xi as a role model in learning and applying traditional ethics, and calls on the nation to build the present and future with those values in mind. Unusually for a book dedicated to speeches and writings of the Communist Party’s general secretary, the volume contains zero quotes from Marx and Mao. Instead, reading like an emperor’s handbook, it is divided into chapters on various aspects of governance filled with Xi’s favorite classical maxims.

Marxism and its various incarnations has lost all appeal with ordinary Chinese. The arcane language and concepts of Marxism were never popular with the public to begin with. Even during the heydays of socialism from 1949 to 1978, people were encouraged to read Mao’s vernacular essays rather than Marx or Lenin’s works. The Chinese additions to Marxism—Mao Zedong Thought, Deng Xiaoping Theory, the Three Represents, and the Scientific Development Concept—although still serving as guiding ideologies to the Party, spark minimal interest with the common people.

(Interestingly, the author of many of these ideologies is a close confidant of Eleven)

The breakdown of morality (道德) is an issue concerning many Chinese. According to a survey conducted by China Youth Daily, 89.3 percent of respondents believe there is “cultural deficiency” in present-day Chinese society, among which 45.7 percent think the “deficiency” is “very serious” (Guangming Online, March 7). A majority of Chinese feels that there is no moral constrain on the behavior of anyone. Even soft-spoken ex-Premier Wen Jiabao remarked: “the downward spiral of morality has reached a very serious point” (Sina News, April 18, 2011). While this “spiritual vacuum” has multiple origins, the yearning for restoration of traditional virtues is common. Research shows cultural conservatism (文化保守主义) is making a comeback. In response to the question “How would you evaluate the role of traditional Chinese culture in contemporary everyday life,” 28.9 percent of 2,976 survey participants chose “very important,” 47.4 percent “important,” and only 3.5 percent chose “unimportant.” [2] In an era of materialism and greed, many are searching for spiritual fulfillment (PRI, May 5).

As a conservative and an outspoken critic of decadence, Xi has a personal interest in curing China’s social ills by bringing back time-tested values (Xinhua, January 16, 2014). [3] Politically, however, Xi’s investment in the “spiritual market” repositioned himself as the defender of traditional China in a kulturkampf against corrosive social vices and foreign cultures—which almost one-in-three (28.9 percent) Chinese believe have “adversely affected traditional Chinese culture” (Guangming Online, March 7). Aligning himself as defender of traditional values fortifies his personality cult with more substance and appeal. This is a calculated move on part of Xi, as it enhances his popularity as a crusader for conservative aspirations, and diverts criticisms against the Party’s disastrous cultural policies in the past that are largely responsible for today’s spiritual crisis.

Xi Jinping’s China is witnessing the unfolding of a cultural revival campaign. Although state-driven cultural revival is a win with the mostly conservative Chinese, the Party-state’s leading position in the campaign means it has all the power to determine what is an “outstanding (优秀)” element of traditional culture. It is therefore very unlikely that China can truly achieve a cultural renaissance based on the principle of “let a hundred schools of thought contend (百家争鸣)”. Yet perhaps this campaign can open up forums for debate about culture in contemporary China—then the possibility is endless. In the coming months, expect more on the cultural front from China’s highest-ranking neotraditionalist.

More broadly it means that Eleven is looking to bolster his own political base, along with the Princelings support and hard core Xi'ists who are slated to come to power this congress. He is looking to move away from the turpan beholden to Hu Jintao and the now much diminished Shanghai Clique of Jiang Zemin.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby KrishnaK » 24 Jul 2017 02:33

China's opinion of India The presenter in the video makes the argument that China downplays Indian military achievements to highlight that China's progress is solely due to the Communist regime. That would make the Chinese paranoid about a democratic India achieving parity. Of course that is bound to raise the question why must the CPC rule China, if a democratic India does as well.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sum » 24 Jul 2017 06:22

Does this come under Chinese Pysche?
How to Sell Your High Value Equipment to China

In entering into a sales agreement with a Chinese factory interested in buying your high value equipment, you should understand that the Chinese factory owner almost certainly holds the following five fundamental beliefs that will drive its behavior in the sale process:

1. Your price is unfairly high. The important thing to know is that the Chinese side believes your price is both too high and fundamentally unfair. The Chinese side views this as the legacy of foreign imperialism, designed to keep the Chinese down, always under the thumb of the foreign oppressor. This attitude is supported by the general ideology of the PRC government. Under this basic belief, the Chinese factory owner feels morally justified in working to avoid paying you the full price for the equipment.

To achieve this, the basic strategy of the Chinese side will be the following:

a. Insist on paying in installments, then not paying the last installment.

b. Insist on a major discount, in the range of 30% to 40%. This then becomes the new base price for the equipment.

c. After paying the discounted price for the first two units, insist on an additional discount for future purchases.

2. Training is not necessary. Any requirement for training the Chinese side in how to use your equipment is just another way for you to unfairly extract more money from the Chinese side. It is also a way to keep the Chinese side down by showing that the Chinese have something to learn from foreigners. The Chinese believe that operation of the equipment is governed by a simple magic pill. Foreign companies that insist on a training program are withholding access to the magic pill.

3. Proper equipment set-up is not necessary. Your requirement that the Chinese side retain you for proper equipment set-up is a waste of time and designed to shift blame for operational failure onto the Chinese side. The Chinese side believes the equipment should “just work.” For this reason, elaborate site set up and pre-operations testing should not be required. Just turn the key and go.

4. After sale support and maintenance is not required. Requirements from the foreign equipment supplier for such after-sale support is designed to do two things: unfairly extract more money from the Chinese side and keep the Chinese side employees ignorant about the true nature of how the equipment operates. That is, you are unfairly hiding the magic pill from them. In addition, the equipment should “just work,” with no need for after sale maintenance or support. Your requiring a service contract or related after-sale support is either your admitting that your equipment is fundamentally defective or your trying to unfairly milk more money from the Chinese side.

5. Your attempts to protect your IP is foreign oppression. Intellectual property protection that prevents the Chinese side from copying your equipment is just another form of foreign oppression. The Chinese side does not believe the design of your equipment is the result of years of hard work and R&D and it wants to be able to copy it so that it can be manufactured in China at a “fair” price.

This then means the Chinese side’s standard strategy will be to purchase as few units as possible and then use its initial purchase(s) to extract the “magic formula.” The strategy is to abandon future purchases and have clones of your equipment manufactured in China.


The important thing from the standpoint of the foreign seller is to recognize the following:
1.These basic beliefs are natural and will not be changed.
2.Since these basic beliefs are pretty much universal among Chinese companies, it is easy to predict how the Chinese buyer will behave at every critical point in the sales process.
3.Since the approach of the Chinese side can rarely if ever be changed, foreign companies that want to sell their high value equipment to China should design their sales programs based on what the Chinese side will do, with contracts that protect the foreign seller from the negative consequences of near certain Chinese company actions.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby A_Gupta » 27 Jul 2017 02:03

sum wrote:Does this come under Chinese Pysche?
How to Sell Your High Value Equipment to China


I read through parts 2 & 3 as well.
http://www.chinalawblog.com/2017/03/how ... art-2.html
http://www.chinalawblog.com/2017/03/how ... art-3.html

How did China climb so high if it is such a lousy place to do business?
How does India come off in comparison for foreign companies to do business?
Can the answers be posted in the appropriate Tech & Economy thread?
Thanks in advance!

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 27 Jul 2017 07:08

KrishnaK wrote:China's opinion of India The presenter in the video makes the argument that China downplays Indian military achievements to highlight that China's progress is solely due to the Communist regime. That would make the Chinese paranoid about a democratic India achieving parity. Of course that is bound to raise the question why must the CPC rule China, if a democratic India does as well.

Thanks for posting and perfectly germane to this thread. 11 minutes well spent!

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Narad » 31 Jul 2017 01:03

*posted earlier*

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 03 Sep 2017 09:25

Cross posting here because I have more to say..
Bart S wrote:Vishnu Som's behind the scenes account of the that Chinese TV show is here:
http://www.ndtv.com/blog/i-co-anchored- ... am-1744567

I too didn't find the performance that impressive, but I think we need to cut him some slack. Once our guys get more familiar with this stuff they will do better for sure, but I think our foreign ministry needs to brief anybody with such a plan first, since they are up against people who are basically mouthpieces for their party.

Didn't bother reading it all - but the first few lines look like a Chinese TV version of comments by Chinese on this forum and on my videos. "We make. You don't. So nyahaya" This looks more like an attempt to shame and gain self confidence than a serious discussion. Shame the other and show who's boss.

There is a serious misunderstanding of Chinese among Indians and vice versa. "Shameful facts" that reveal Indian realities are seen by Indians as the truth that require to be addressed, not as "shame causing facts" that should be hidden to avoid embarrassment. Poverty is not hidden from others because we are ashamed and would rather hide it. On the other hand the Chinese appear all good - despite fraying seen at the edges because appearances that cause shame are to be avoided. If Indians thought like Chinese we would be shamed into accepting our inferior status because the Chinese do not reveal anything that is not shiny or bad. If others can't see it, it does not exist.

To that extent I think that "allowing the Chinese a way out of Doklam" without shaming them was the right thing to do. When you shame people without any direct gain for yourself other than bolstering one's own ego and making the other "accept your superiority" you are playing the other person's game - where the shamed person will want to continue the game. But if, in your assessment you have actually scared him and told him where to get off, and he knows that he has to get off - then let him get off without shame and keep barking. he will know what to expect next time. This may take several Doklam type iterations to take effect - but it is a form of behaviour modification we can impose on the Chinese without copying their gaming style which they excel in.

In fact the release of the Pangong video was a masterstroke although the left-right statement was an error because Indians who are always ready to accept their inferiority started searching for nuances based on perspective/north/south etc and screwed up the effect somewhat. But the message went to Peiping all right

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 03 Sep 2017 10:00

Let me try and convey what I am trying to say. There is some psychology here. I will use an example.

Child: mommy I peed in my pants
Mommy: (angry) You should be ashamed of yourself.


Look at this from the child's viewpoint. All his life he has peed in his pants and someone has changed him. He is wet and uncomfortable and promptly does what he knows - he tells his mother. But what does his mother do? His mother angrily tells him back "You should be ashamed of yourself"

Why? Because he told mommy? Or because he peed in his pants? Or because he is uncomfortable? After a few iterations of this he learns that peeing in his pants should not be done because it causes mommy to become angry and he will be miserable and is supposed to be "ashamed". So "shaming" is a way of teaching this lesson. The person with power declares anger and shows power over him. She can keep him uncomfortable or miserable so he learns.

Another way to teach the child is to to be gentle and tell him "It's allright. Let me change you. But please tell me early so I can let you pee in a toilet so you don't get wet and miserable". But I digress..

"You should be ashamed" is a rhetorical tool that serves the twin purpose of
1.Telling the other person that he is wrong
and
2. Establishing moral ascendancy over the person who has been told his error.

In other words "shaming" has a twin purpose. In the case of mother and child - let us change the story slightly to see what happens:

Child: mommy I peed in my pants
Mommy: (angry) You should be ashamed of yourself.
Child: Why
Mommy: You must not do that
Child: Why not?
Mother: (more angry) - says whatever - but eventually shows her physical power over her child by punishing him - either my not changing him or smacking him or something.


Having that power is important. If mommy tries to smack a sturdy 16 year old boy, threats won't work and this "You should be ashamed" stuff will not work

Apply this to China. The Chinese use shaming talk - "Poverty", "Rape", "Defecate in the open", "Don't make your own weapons"

By this they want India to abide by the rules of shaming:
1. Accept our mistake
2. Accept china's moral ascendancy.

But remember - moral ascendancy has to be backed by physical power like mother over 2 year old rather than mother with 16 year old. If that physical power differential cannot be proven - then all this "shaming talk" does not work.

China was unable/unwilling to demonstrate that physical/military power differential over India and had to back down.

China is right now being shamed in the public sphere - even on BRF but shaming Chinese is not the same as shaming Xi or the CPC.

Suppose we had publicly shamed Xi or the CPC - what would have happened? At worst we would have had war - ranging from a skirmish to a fairly intense set of battles. Or else the Chinese could have stayed shamed, actually and publicly lost face which has not happened now. Both outcomes might have boosted Indian ego a great deal but IMO what we need is not an ego boost. We need a change in Chinese behaviour. By outright shaming them we get a big ego boost but lose all chances of modulating their behaviour in future. What we want is to apply pressure on them so they stop gaandmasti at the border, gaandmasti with Pakistan and this idiocy of opposing NSG. They need to know that the option of shaming them publicly still exists with us. they cannot shame us any more because they have already played that card for too long. They got themselves into a sticky situation and we must go for the brain and not the arse.

JMT

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby RajeshA » 03 Sep 2017 12:56

Cross-posting from "Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)" Thread

shiv wrote:There is a serious misunderstanding of Chinese among Indians and vice versa. "Shameful facts" that reveal Indian realities are seen by Indians as the truth that require to be addressed, not as "shame causing facts" that should be hidden to avoid embarrassment. Poverty is not hidden from others because we are ashamed and would rather hide it. On the other hand the Chinese appear all good - despite fraying seen at the edges because appearances that cause shame are to be avoided. If Indians thought like Chinese we would be shamed into accepting our inferior status because the Chinese do not reveal anything that is not shiny or bad. If others can't see it, it does not exist.

To that extent I think that "allowing the Chinese a way out of Doklam" without shaming them was the right thing to do. When you shame people without any direct gain for yourself other than bolstering one's own ego and making the other "accept your superiority" you are playing the other person's game - where the shamed person will want to continue the game. But if, in your assessment you have actually scared him and told him where to get off, and he knows that he has to get off - then let him get off without shame and keep barking. he will know what to expect next time. This may take several Doklam type iterations to take effect - but it is a form of behaviour modification we can impose on the Chinese without copying their gaming style which they excel in.

In fact the release of the Pangong video was a masterstroke although the left-right statement was an error because Indians who are always ready to accept their inferiority started searching for nuances based on perspective/north/south etc and screwed up the effect somewhat. But the message went to Peiping all right


The Chinese position would be "avoid loss of face" because it shatters the carefully nurtured image of strength and advantage. In order to build this image however it becomes necessary to challenge others, turning them to adversaries even. In this case it is very important whom you challenge.

If you challenge the far less powerful countries, then it has to be on radar but not too much in public, because then China itself can become a butt of jokes that they are a bully and like to beat up the weak. Here it is important that the weak do not challenge Chinese might at all and simply accept meekly the Chinese expansionary move and conditions. Sometimes China would even provide a little money to make the pain less of succumbing to China. Such countries would be like Bhutan, Nepal, Mongolia, Laos, etc.

Then the Chinese like to challenge middle-weights like Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia, South Korea, Taiwan, etc. In these cases, China does not mind if the challenge is quite public. After all what is the use of being a bully if nobody really knows about you. In this case, China does like to spit lots of fury and even some little fire. The pressure remains incessant. This is how China has been able to expand its ownership rights over the Indo-China Sea (SCS), through incessant pushing. Till now, possibly China may have been under the perception that India at least under UPA belongs to this category too. Basically this is like how one saw the Chinese soldiers trying to push Indian jawans around in the video.

T'hen there are countries China considers as stronger than itself, and with these countries China adopts a victimhood narrative, shows itself as the underdog and calls on its people to resist the imperialists - Americans, Japanese, Russians. In their case, China may not be as such averse to put up a fight, because any fight, with a win or a loss, would still increase its bombast.

With India, China wants to be the elder brother who should have the right to rule Asia, and the younger brother should simply accept this. The elder brother should be able to munch off the younger brother's chocolate anytime he wishes and even thrash the younger's brother's friends when he likes, just to show everybody who the real boss is. And of course elder brother China sometimes does not approve of younger brother India playing with some of the eebil people like Japan and You-ess-aye! If younger brother makes too much trouble, China would send its rabies-infested dog Pakistan to go and bite it.

Indians are telling China, go to hell. India has always been the Guru of the world, and we will take our rightful position by kicking in your robot-nuts and the scrawny dog doesn't frighten us. We are ready for 2 and 1/2 front fight. We don't like unilateral panga because it doesn't suit our Guru-status but if you like a fight, we'll be ready.

China cannot buy us, they cannot intimidate us, they do not boost their ego by picking a fight with us, certainly not if they lose it. So China has a hard time dealing with India, and yet they cannot simply ignore us.

They cannot ignore us, because India's success would mean implosion of China's political system.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby chola » 03 Sep 2017 14:24

shiv wrote:Let me try and convey what I am trying to say. There is some psychology here. I will use an example.

Child: mommy I peed in my pants
Mommy: (angry) You should be ashamed of yourself.


Look at this from the child's viewpoint. All his life he has peed in his pants and someone has changed him. He is wet and uncomfortable and promptly does what he knows - he tells his mother. But what does his mother do? His mother angrily tells him back "You should be ashamed of yourself"

Why? Because he told mommy? Or because he peed in his pants? Or because he is uncomfortable? After a few iterations of this he learns that peeing in his pants should not be done because it causes mommy to become angry and he will be miserable and is supposed to be "ashamed". So "shaming" is a way of teaching this lesson. The person with power declares anger and shows power over him. She can keep him uncomfortable or miserable so he learns.

Another way to teach the child is to to be gentle and tell him "It's allright. Let me change you. But please tell me early so I can let you pee in a toilet so you don't get wet and miserable". But I digress..

"You should be ashamed" is a rhetorical tool that serves the twin purpose of
1.Telling the other person that he is wrong
and
2. Establishing moral ascendancy over the person who has been told his error.

In other words "shaming" has a twin purpose. In the case of mother and child - let us change the story slightly to see what happens:

Child: mommy I peed in my pants
Mommy: (angry) You should be ashamed of yourself.
Child: Why
Mommy: You must not do that
Child: Why not?
Mother: (more angry) - says whatever - but eventually shows her physical power over her child by punishing him - either my not changing him or smacking him or something.


Having that power is important. If mommy tries to smack a sturdy 16 year old boy, threats won't work and this "You should be ashamed" stuff will not work

Apply this to China. The Chinese use shaming talk - "Poverty", "Rape", "Defecate in the open", "Don't make your own weapons"

By this they want India to abide by the rules of shaming:
1. Accept our mistake
2. Accept china's moral ascendancy.

But remember - moral ascendancy has to be backed by physical power like mother over 2 year old rather than mother with 16 year old. If that physical power differential cannot be proven - then all this "shaming talk" does not work.

China was unable/unwilling to demonstrate that physical/military power differential over India and had to back down.

China is right now being shamed in the public sphere - even on BRF but shaming Chinese is not the same as shaming Xi or the CPC.

Suppose we had publicly shamed Xi or the CPC - what would have happened? At worst we would have had war - ranging from a skirmish to a fairly intense set of battles. Or else the Chinese could have stayed shamed, actually and publicly lost face which has not happened now. Both outcomes might have boosted Indian ego a great deal but IMO what we need is not an ego boost. We need a change in Chinese behaviour. By outright shaming them we get a big ego boost but lose all chances of modulating their behaviour in future. What we want is to apply pressure on them so they stop gaandmasti at the border, gaandmasti with Pakistan and this idiocy of opposing NSG. They need to know that the option of shaming them publicly still exists with us. they cannot shame us any more because they have already played that card for too long. They got themselves into a sticky situation and we must go for the brain and not the arse.

JMT



Psychological bullshit where you twists yourself in knots over some pseudo-science concepts.

The proper response should have been war when and where you had overwhelming advantages. And we have overwhelming advantages along the entire chini front.

The world is material and power comes in the form of money during peace and simple kinetic violence during war. Anything else is simple ego boosting through mental masturbation.

As a race and nation we need to make ourselves wealthier and initiate and fight advantageous wars when we have to.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 03 Sep 2017 18:54

chola wrote:
The world is material and power comes in the form of money during peace and simple kinetic violence during war. Anything else is simple ego boosting through mental masturbation.

:rotfl: Mental masturbation is correct. It failed miserably for China. Maybe you should take this to the Wall Street thread and tell the Amreekis what they like to hear.

chola wrote:As a race and nation we need to make ourselves wealthier and initiate and fight advantageous wars when we have to.

Worthless banal truisms to fluff up an equally worthless rant

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 Sep 2017 23:52

Need more like you in GOI, Chola.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby ArjunPandit » 04 Sep 2017 00:21

WSJ on Doklam
The comments are more noteworthy than the article. It is saddening to see most Indians in a re-conciliatory mode rather than going ballistic. Barring one poster(who takes it to twitter/rediff level). Interestingly, he mentions BRF on one of his posts.

Chinese are behaving more & more like pakis

One gem: posting random videos and claiming that India retreated because of floods and rains
when they couldnt answer their weakness in doklam they resorted to rapes, women's mistreatment, open defecation in India along with absurd statistics from UN

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby chola » 04 Sep 2017 02:49

shiv wrote:
chola wrote:
The world is material and power comes in the form of money during peace and simple kinetic violence during war. Anything else is simple ego boosting through mental masturbation.

:rotfl: Mental masturbation is correct. It failed miserably for China.


And it will fail just as miserably for India if we spend time fvcking with "psychology" and "propaganda" instead of kinetic force. Instead of rolling of rolling into the Tibetan Plateau with our massive advantages in men and aircraft, we need to settle this psychological mumble jumble of giving them face to affect their behavior later? Nothing but mental masturbation because it doesn't affect shit on the ground.

Maybe you should take this to the Wall Street thread and tell the Amreekis what they like to hear.


What the hell for? Unkil already gotten the message and lived up to it in every fvcking way as the pre-eminent super power on this planet.

In peace-time, American money and markets support an alliance of great powers: Japan, UK, Germany, SoKo, Canada, Oz, the rest of the EU. It is pulling in India in every way short of formal alliance (and that is because of us.)

At war, it is pre-positioned with bases everywhere in the world but especially around its "peer" competitors. All ready to deliver massive kinetic punishment.

Amreekis are at the top by spending wealth and going to war whenever necessary. Damn right, I wish India to be the same.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby chola » 04 Sep 2017 03:08

sanjaykumar wrote:Need more like you in GOI, Chola.



I'm a numbers guy, educated in the West as an exploiting capitalist with a strong belief in taking action when the numbers are in your favor. The numbers are there HEAVILY in our favor on the border with Cheen.

If I may be so humble: there are many of us in the West as NRIs. The greatest among us are CEOs of some of the most iconic western firms imaginable.

A few dozen NRI CEOs at the top of the GOI will change India from the vestiges of passive dharmic Gandhism to the much more aggressive, numbers-driven realism of Wall Street and Silicon Valley.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sanjaykumar » 04 Sep 2017 03:26

I do not think India was ever gandhian. That was India's "pope's divisions". That is the only leverage going for the first generation of India's leaders.

Now India is accruing palpable economic and military power. People of a wall st Darwinian bent will inevitably flourish.

I only hope India can eschew gratuitous violence. Unless we can reanimate human beings we have no business taking lives.

Democracies do the tough talking in private. It is an unwritten rule that one does not embarrass a government in front of its people.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 04 Sep 2017 07:48

chola wrote:
A few dozen NRI CEOs at the top of the GOI will change India from the vestiges of passive dharmic Gandhism to the much more aggressive,


:rotfl: Shows how little you know about Indians...and India for that matter Anyhow this is OT for this thread. Start a "wall street psyche" thread to give us your bullshit on the subject

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Pulikeshi » 04 Sep 2017 09:21

chola wrote:
A few dozen NRI CEOs at the top of the GOI will change India from the vestiges of passive dharmic Gandhism to the much more aggressive, numbers-driven realism of Wall Street and Silicon Valley.


Will all due respect - rather naive thinking getting tossed around for strategy here...
India has the long game ~ textbook play by this govt without NRI help on Doklam!

Gandhism worked when it did! He was a good strategist given the constraints India had at the time...
What is this self-flagellation? Really tired of such self-loathing statements... such as: "passive dharmic..." There is nothing passive about Dharma! Especially on BRF and coming from regulars like you it seems very disingenuous :evil: :evil: :evil:

What numbers driven realism? Does not seem like you have paid much detailed attention to Silicon Valley or Macro Economics! :evil:
NRI CEOs represent their companies before anything else... what does this have to do with Indian interests?
The interests may occasionally coincide... There are many posts from you that I enjoy, but the above really needs your rethink!

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby chola » 04 Sep 2017 09:51

Pulikeshi wrote:
chola wrote:
A few dozen NRI CEOs at the top of the GOI will change India from the vestiges of passive dharmic Gandhism to the much more aggressive, numbers-driven realism of Wall Street and Silicon Valley.


Will all due respect - rather naive thinking getting tossed around for strategy here...
India has the long game ~ textbook play by this govt without NRI help on Doklam!

Gandhism worked when it did! He was a good strategist given the constraints India had at the time...
What is this self-flagellation? Really tired of such self-loathing statements... such as: "passive dharmic..." There is nothing passive about Dharma! Especially on BRF and coming from regulars like you it seems very disingenuous :evil: :evil: :evil:

What numbers driven realism? Does not seem like you have paid much detailed attention to Silicon Valley or Macro Economics! :evil:
NRI CEOs represent their companies before anything else... what does this have to do with Indian interests?
The interests may occasionally coincide... There are many posts from you that I enjoy, but the above really needs your rethink!



1) my point is the FURTHEST THING from self-flagellation. I believe India should fight where we enjoy advantages like the chini border. That is CONFIDENCE in our ability unlike the bullshit psychological pseudo-science and phoney propaganda that Shiv advocates which is nothing more than a cover or an excuse for lack of ability, will or confidence,

2) read my past posts on Gandhi, I'm against anyone attacking him as a person and icon. But there is no doubt that passive attitude influence this "textbook" play on Doka La. What should have been the IA's 17 and 33 Corps rolling into Tibet with overwhelming force and recovering at the very least what was lost in 1962, we settled for an ambiguous mutual "face-saving" victory that is already being subverted by chini propaganda.

When the numbers favor you (20 to 1 along the LAC) then you fvcking take advantage of it and roll over the opposition. That is numbers driven realism. That is why Wall Street dominates global finance and why the United States dominates the global hierachy of nations.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 04 Sep 2017 09:58

chola wrote:When the numbers favor you (20 to 1 along the LAC) then you fvcking take advantage of it and roll over the opposition. That is numbers driven realism. That is why Wall Street dominates global finance and why the United States dominates the global hierachy of nations.

You are saying, if it works on wall street it will work for the armed forces. Sounds like bullshit to me. Clearly it is not working for the Chinese. Or for the US against piddly North Korea


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