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Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Pathik » 27 Apr 2017 15:15

SriJoy wrote:
Pathik wrote:May be OT. Just saw a video of a small baby run over by two cars in China, luckily the baby survived. Few years ago saw a person run over by a car and passers by just going about their business normally. Is this some kind of a phenomena chinese behaviour is turning into? Does godlessness/non-dharma lead to heartlessness?


No, because the nicest and soulful people i know are atheists, not religious people. Godlessness usually leads to better human to human conduct, because people are not guided by arbitrary morals made up in a religious book, they are actually practicing the golden rule. This is why the safest places in the world tend to have the least religious people. Chinese problem is not godlessness, its their hierarchal society where only power matters.


I guess you did not read */non-dharma. It does not mean religious dogma like malsi or jehovah; nor does godliness mean the same. If you look at the mechanical way in which china is growing leading to the changes in people's lifestyle in ways in which societal values take a back seat. They wanted to achieve numbers, became a manufacturing hub, wanted to win olympic medals, came up with athlete factories for 3 year olds. The toll this has taken on people's lives there is very high in comparison to the life they get in return. In the second post I mentioned the superficial ways in which the chinese young gen is trying to satisfy their materialistic needs also goes to show on the lost values.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 27 Apr 2017 15:22

Pathik wrote:
SriJoy wrote:
No, because the nicest and soulful people i know are atheists, not religious people. Godlessness usually leads to better human to human conduct, because people are not guided by arbitrary morals made up in a religious book, they are actually practicing the golden rule. This is why the safest places in the world tend to have the least religious people. Chinese problem is not godlessness, its their hierarchal society where only power matters.


I guess you did not read */non-dharma. It does not mean religious dogma like malsi or jehovah; nor does godliness mean the same. If you look at the mechanical way in which china is growing leading to the changes in people's lifestyle in ways in which societal values take a back seat. They wanted to achieve numbers, became a manufacturing hub, wanted to win olympic medals, came up with athlete factories for 3 year olds. The toll this has taken on people's lives there is very high in comparison to the life they get in return. In the second post I mentioned the superficial ways in which the chinese young gen is trying to satisfy their materialistic needs also goes to show on the lost values.


Godliness, at the very least, means belief in a supreme being/conciousness. Atheists don't necessarily believe that.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Pathik » 27 Apr 2017 15:33

^ No, because the nicest and soulful people i know are atheists, not religious people. - thats a very broad generalization. its like saying my non-vegetarian eating friends are better humans than my vegan friends. Its a vague statement. And who are the noble atheist souls in history to have changed the world and passed the message of peace and harmony?

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby nam » 27 Apr 2017 16:27

From the content here, it looks like being bully is the thing in Chinese society? So if the Commies were not in power, any alternate power would still be a bully.

Communism seems to have given a name to a behaviour which was already prevalent. This explains the fallout with the Soviet Union as well.

So the Chinese are not "being suppressed under the commie boots"... it is the government they want. An emperor, a bully.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 27 Apr 2017 17:40

Suraj wrote:The pictures themselves are a very vivid image of how a shame based society functions.

Absolutely. What fascinates me is that the people being shamed have been beaten into "playing a role" as it were. They must stand bowing their heads down before the people while being accused/lampooned/whatever. If you look at ISIS?Taliban executions - that "bowing head" thing is not demaded. they are simply shot.

In China there was no guarantee that they could not be killed but humiliation while alive is a strong meme.

As as digression yet again - I was personally not committed mentally to whether Indians nuclear doctrine should continue as NFU or be ambiguous. But know that Chinese see this as a sign of weakness it is essential to change the doctrine to FU. Just my initial thoughts

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 27 Apr 2017 17:44

Another gem from the anonymous lurker: These are supremely valuable insights - I'm learning a lot
Why does China emphatically state the 9-dash line and says other's have no right to the resources there? This can be explained by the phrase "Treasuring a jade pendant". A poor peasant found a Jade pendant and kept it to himself. Eventually people found out about it, and he was killed and the pendant taken. But the thief was also killed by another, and so on, till the Jade pendant fell into the hand of somebody strong enough to wear it openly for none dare rob him. So If you have something very valuable, or earned something very valuable, it doesn't automatically become yours. You must have enough strength to defend it, otherwise you might as well give it up to a strong one and save yourself suffering. So just because ICS has oil under the EEZ of Vietnam and Philippines it doesn't belong to them unless they have the strength to repel the Chinese. Otherwise they are like a peasant treasuring a Jade pendant. Easy pickings. The Chinese will accept Arunachal belongs to India when they see demonstrable proof that we can kick their asses back to the Yellow river and more. Otherwise we are a Weak people trying to hold onto something not ours by overreaching our strength. Why is it not ours? Because China is supposedly strong enough to flaunt that Jade pendant.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby nam » 27 Apr 2017 17:57

Probably the reason why China was quite until their economy grew to start needling us on AP.

The 71 wiping of Pakis showed the Chinese we can defend AP.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby JayS » 27 Apr 2017 19:22

shiv wrote:Another gem from the anonymous lurker: These are supremely valuable insights - I'm learning a lot
Why does China emphatically state the 9-dash line and says other's have no right to the resources there? This can be explained by the phrase "Treasuring a jade pendant". A poor peasant found a Jade pendant and kept it to himself. Eventually people found out about it, and he was killed and the pendant taken. But the thief was also killed by another, and so on, till the Jade pendant fell into the hand of somebody strong enough to wear it openly for none dare rob him. So If you have something very valuable, or earned something very valuable, it doesn't automatically become yours. You must have enough strength to defend it, otherwise you might as well give it up to a strong one and save yourself suffering. So just because ICS has oil under the EEZ of Vietnam and Philippines it doesn't belong to them unless they have the strength to repel the Chinese. Otherwise they are like a peasant treasuring a Jade pendant. Easy pickings. The Chinese will accept Arunachal belongs to India when they see demonstrable proof that we can kick their asses back to the Yellow river and more. Otherwise we are a Weak people trying to hold onto something not ours by overreaching our strength. Why is it not ours? Because China is supposedly strong enough to flaunt that Jade pendant.


Couldn't agree more to the part where he says China will respect India only when it sees us powerful enough. Once I read a bit on Chinese attitude and how they deliberately keep things always confusing in diplomatic talks. I read an article how Chacha Nehru fell for these tricks due to his naivety. Can't remember exact things but it was on the road they built in Aksaichin. Lesson was never take Chinese at face value and never ever take implied meaning from what they say either. Will try to find the article and post if possible.

But one important thing I learnt from that reading sessions (only related to geo-political posturing and not so much as personal behaviour of typical Chinese, can't comment on that since I do not have experience there), that Chinese only value Power. They are like those aggressive Rams which will keep pushing on and on and on until they hit strong resistance that they cannot breach. If you show them soft side they would just laugh at you and will make a punch bag out of you. So if you want to face them dig in the heels and hit them hard head to head when they come charging towards you.

Dalai Lama visits AP Chinese renames AP cities. China building CPEC in our land in PoK and thinking of taking entire GB on lease from paki pigs. What did we do..?? Nothing. With that kind of meekness, let alone Chinese even Bangladeshis don't respect us.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby ldev » 27 Apr 2017 19:35

Suraj wrote:No hnair, I think you're wrong. They're not being 'meek'. They're just fulfilling their idea of Mandate of Heaven. People do not rebel against the leader until he demonstrates that he has failed to discharge his duties as leader. They give their leader a pretty long rope that way (Mao had barely been in power 2 decades during CR, and they had more than 2 dozen emperors who reigned more than 30 years), before revolting to such an extent that they lose 2-10% of their population.

It's happened to almost every dynasty of theirs. Great highs of world beating accomplishments, and it falls apart. In the next few years anywhere from the population of Bangalore to that of Mumbai+Delhi+Bangalore+Chennai gets killed, just like that . If it happened to us once, the scars would still be there. But they've done it 6-7 times in the last 2000 years. What happens to people after so much of that ? Surely it unhinges their mental state somewhat ?


The Chinese are gamblers by nature and instinct. If you see some of the larger casinos in the US and Canada Chinese patrons are present in huge numbers totally disproportionate to their share of the local population. So when a Chinese leader decides to take a monumental gamble with the fate of the nation, the population by and large supports that gamble until such time that the pain and suffering from a failed gamble reaches a tipping point and then the leader is replaced. So it's not a question of being meek or not meek. As gamblers and risk takers they will be with their leadership in the pursuit of those high risk ventures. The Great Leap forward did not work out, the Cultural Revolution was a disaster with millions of Chinese dead as a result. In more recent times China has pursued high risk geopolitical moves with nuclear supplies to North Korea and Pakistan. On the economic front it has created more credit domestically since 2008 than the US and EU combined with all of the attendant risks.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby chola » 27 Apr 2017 19:36

JayS wrote:
shiv wrote:Another gem from the anonymous lurker: These are supremely valuable insights - I'm learning a lot


Couldn't agree more to the part where he says China will respect India only when it sees us powerful enough. Once I read a bit on Chinese attitude and how they deliberately keep things always confusing in diplomatic talks. I read an article how Chacha Nehru fell for these tricks due to his naivety. Can't remember exact things but it was on the road they built in Aksaichin. Lesson was never take Chinese at face value and never ever take implied meaning from what they say either. Will try to find the article and post if possible.

But one important thing I learnt from that reading sessions (only related to geo-political posturing and not so much as personal behaviour of typical Chinese, can't comment on that since I do not have experience there), that Chinese only value Power. They are like those aggressive Rams which will keep pushing on and on and on until they hit strong resistance that they cannot breach. If you show them soft side they would just laugh at you and will make a punch bag out of you. So if you want to face them dig in the heels and hit them hard head to head when they come charging towards you.

Dalai Lama visits AP Chinese renames AP cities. China building CPEC in our land in PoK and thinking of taking entire GB on lease from paki pigs. What did we do..?? Nothing. With that kind of meekness, let alone Chinese even Bangladeshis don't respect us.



So the best policy for Cheen is open warfare!

I advocate an attack all along the chini border since they have arrogantly left them undermanned and underequipped.

We'll show them "meek" -- by punching them in the back of their f:cking heads!

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby chola » 27 Apr 2017 19:47

Though I can relate a parable concerning the above:

I told my chini-amreeki SHQ (then GHQ) that I wanted to try a "donkey punch." This being a college sex prank going around the gora frat boys circles that involved punching the back of your hex partner's head during climax while doing doggy style so the shock causes her to involuntarily contract and clamp down on your mijjile.

So with that in mind, she replied:

"You better knock me the f:ck out because I'm tearing your f:cking sack off if I'm not."

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sanjaykumar » 27 Apr 2017 21:36

I admit my Asian GHQ's small feet make for premature missile detonations but that description of foot binding is some of the most revolting text I have read.

What to make of such a barbarous people?

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Suraj » 27 Apr 2017 21:37

nam wrote:From the content here, it looks like being bully is the thing in Chinese society? So if the Commies were not in power, any alternate power would still be a bully.

Communism seems to have given a name to a behaviour which was already prevalent. This explains the fallout with the Soviet Union as well.

So the Chinese are not "being suppressed under the commie boots"... it is the government they want. An emperor, a bully.

Correct. Mainland people are not stifled and dying for democracy while under the yoke of CPC. Rather, CPC is simply the current emperor to whom they ascribe the Mandate of Heaven.

The emperor MUST show that he's strong, in charge, has big brass testimonials the size of jackfruits , etc. Any cute 'pehle aap' politeness is pansy wimp behavior that will see the emperor dangling from a tree, like the Chongzhen Emperor - the last Ming ruler - did (he ran from the Imperial Palace and hung himself in the garden as the Manchus overran Beijing. That tree used to be around until they cut it down during CR).

China will never seek a mutually respectful solution to anything or anybody. It will either dominate, or show respectful deference. Anyone notionally equal or potentially capable of equality is someone to be hampered and sabotaged by any and all means necessary. If they're not doing anything actively, it's not that they've agreed to status quo, but that they're biding their time for better circumstances for themselves.

To seek status quo with China is stupid. Their mindset never favors status quo. They always seek even marginal gains that will accumulate in their favor long term.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby JayS » 27 Apr 2017 21:39

chola wrote:

So the best policy for Cheen is open warfare!

I advocate an attack all along the chini border since they have arrogantly left them undermanned and underequipped.

We'll show them "meek" -- by punching them in the back of their f:cking heads!


LOL. But there are many types of warfares. Economic, diplomatic, sub-conventional, unconventional, covert etc apart from going on all out war. I hoped it was clear enough from my "figure of speech" that showing them assertiveness and giving back in the same coin is what is important. But apparently not. Anyway.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby bharotshontan » 27 Apr 2017 21:45

Chinese seem to have been quick to adopt white supremacism into the older/traditional/subtler paler=better colorism in the modern era. It seemed to evolve in front of my eyes in the keyboard wars in online forums in the early to mid 2000s, where all of a sudden the Chinese realized they are at par with whites while Indians and sub-Saharan Africans are basically the same. I have no idea if this is actually taking root among Chinese, I've never experienced open racial hostility from Chinese or Chinese-Americans in real life. But this might be something that is taking deeper root in their culture as we speak, resulting in extra innate pressure not to be seen as weak vs Indians while concessions can be tolerated vs Japan or US or Russia. The era of Indian dharmagurus of Chinese is long gone and so has the respect that came with it, color differential notwithstanding.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Suraj » 27 Apr 2017 21:50

shiv wrote:
Suraj wrote:The pictures themselves are a very vivid image of how a shame based society functions.

Absolutely. What fascinates me is that the people being shamed have been beaten into "playing a role" as it were. They must stand bowing their heads down before the people while being accused/lampooned/whatever. If you look at ISIS?Taliban executions - that "bowing head" thing is not demaded. they are simply shot.

In China there was no guarantee that they could not be killed but humiliation while alive is a strong meme.

In many instances, the public humiliation was a precursor to being taken to the field away from the platform and summarily shot. There are some quite brutal stories, like sons accusing their mothers of spying and having them lynched:
China's Cultural Revolution: son's guilt over the mother he sent to her death
They beat her, bound her and led her from home. She knelt before the crowds as they denounced her. Then they loaded her on to a truck, drove her to the outskirts of town and shot her.

Fang Zhongmou's execution for political crimes during the Cultural Revolution was commonplace in its brutality but more shocking to outsiders in one regard: her accusers were her husband and their 16-year-old child.

...
One evening, her zealous son accused her of tacitly criticising Mao. The family row spiralled rapidly: Fang called for the return of purged leaders and attacked Mao for his personality cult. "I warned her: 'If you go against our dear Chairman Mao I will smash your dog head,'" Zhang said, at times reading from his father's testimony. "I felt this wasn't my mother. This wasn't a person. She suddenly became a monster … She had become a class enemy and opened her bloody mouth."

Fang's brother begged her to take her words back, warning she would be killed. "I'm not scared," Fang replied. She tore down and burned Mao's picture.

When her husband and son ran to denounce her, "I understood it meant death," Zhang said. In fact, he added, he called for her to be shot as a counter-revolutionary. He last saw her as she knelt on stage in the hours before her death.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Karthik S » 27 Apr 2017 21:57

^^^ WTH? This sounds similar to a news that a woman was shot by her son in Syria.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 28 Apr 2017 00:31

Pathik wrote:^ No, because the nicest and soulful people i know are atheists, not religious people. - thats a very broad generalization. its like saying my non-vegetarian eating friends are better humans than my vegan friends. Its a vague statement. And who are the noble atheist souls in history to have changed the world and passed the message of peace and harmony?


You will find there have been plenty of atheists who've improved the world with their ideas of peace and harmony. Epicurus sticks out as an immediate example.
My anecdote was in counter to your anecdote - that Godlessness is to blame in case of the Chinese poor behaviour. And since i know my anecdote won't suffice, i also said that you will find a direct correlation between lessening of belief in God and lessening of crime in those societies. Places like Canada, Scandinavia, Germany are at an all-time low in both 'Godlessness' and crime. Hardly think that is a coincidence, because as i said, atheists who have morality are far more aligned with golden-rule than theists, due to the fact that any moral system designed by the self is going to be more oriented to the golden rule than an arbitrary moral system commanded by scriptures.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby ShauryaT » 28 Apr 2017 00:54

Suraj wrote:In many instances, the public humiliation was a precursor to being taken to the field away from the platform and summarily shot. There are some quite brutal stories, like sons accusing their mothers of spying and having them lynched:
China's Cultural Revolution: son's guilt over the mother he sent to her death
On Mao's rule and what it meant for the Chinese people, I have read this account and the heart goes out to the Chinese people.
https://www.amazon.com/Wild-Swans-Three ... 0743246985

According to the book, Mao responsible for untimely death of 70 million during his rule, some say 20 million. Some say, this is the cost of societal reform on a mass scale. As an Indian, it is mind boggling that this type of blood churning is the norm in many societies.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby ramana » 28 Apr 2017 01:13

nam wrote:Probably the reason why China was quite until their economy grew to start needling us on AP.

The 71 wiping of Pakis showed the Chinese we can defend AP.



No Sum DrongChu and Operation Falcon

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby ramana » 28 Apr 2017 01:21

While all the above reflects on Mainland Chinese political society, individually I have heard the most heart warming ones too.

One of my friend's wife parents are from mainland China. The father evacuated as a refugee to US from Shanghai, after Communist takeover leaving behind his wife. He waited for over 20 years till the thaw in the 1970s and went back and brought his wife to San Francisco and started his family. They were brought up as Buddhists.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 28 Apr 2017 01:29

bharotshontan wrote:Chinese seem to have been quick to adopt white supremacism into the older/traditional/subtler paler=better colorism in the modern era. It seemed to evolve in front of my eyes in the keyboard wars in online forums in the early to mid 2000s, where all of a sudden the Chinese realized they are at par with whites while Indians and sub-Saharan Africans are basically the same. I have no idea if this is actually taking root among Chinese, I've never experienced open racial hostility from Chinese or Chinese-Americans in real life. But this might be something that is taking deeper root in their culture as we speak, resulting in extra innate pressure not to be seen as weak vs Indians while concessions can be tolerated vs Japan or US or Russia. The era of Indian dharmagurus of Chinese is long gone and so has the respect that came with it, color differential notwithstanding.


Chinese racial hostility is a very different beast to Caucasian/Arab racial hostility.
The latter group, focuses on boisterousness, rubbing your face into it, making you feel inferior, aggressive language/gestures that they want you to escalate by giving a reaction. Ie, classic 'high school bully = your average Caucasian/Arab racist'.

Chinese racial hostility manifests itself as cold hostility. They will treat you like as if you are a hooker invited as a +1 to their son's wedding : scowling, short sharp words to other Chinese folks to beware of you, refusing to engage with you, ignoring you but committing aggressive body language gestures, etc. They will treat you like you are a fly on the wall - irrelevant, insignificant and inconsequential. They will not goad you or engage with you- they will straight up aggressively mess up your interest with no 'preface/declaration of hostilities' etc.

Most common example to demonstrate this, is when i am trying to catch the last subway(skytrain here) and rush on to the platform at 1:30 am, not knowing if the last train has left.
Case 1:
Me: " excuse me, do you know if the last train has left yet ?"
Racist (and usually drunk) white guy : Whaa what ? Hey, mr Poon-jab( I am not Punjabi, i don't look Punjabi to any other Desis, i don't wear a turban either) wants to know if the last train has left. What, we are standing here for fun, mr Poon-jab ? *puts on the Apu- accent from Simpsons* Well why don't you wait and find out ? This isn't Poon-jab, things run here by the rules. So stand and find out. Blahblahblah.

Case 2:
Me: " excuse me, do you know if the last train has left yet?"
Racist (and usually old, i.e., 60+) Chinese man/woman: < no response, no movement. keep staring across the track>
Me: " excuse me...do..."
Racist Chinese man/woman: <snaps head sideways as if forced to do so, with glaring eyes to look at me, mutters in Mandarin, looks at their feet, walks 5-10 feet AWAY from me, assumes serene look and goes back to staring across the track>

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sanjaykumar » 28 Apr 2017 02:52

If you are in Vancouver, the older Chinese often speak no English benefit of the doubt and all that.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 28 Apr 2017 02:59

sanjaykumar wrote:If you are in Vancouver, the older Chinese often speak no English benefit of the doubt and all that.


I have travelled through Africa. Backwaters of Bolivia. Middle of nowhere India where i don't speak the local language. I only speak English, Hindi and Bengali. I've had plenty of occasions where i cannot communicate with a local. Every single time, when its not a Chinese person, they make the hand gestures and head shake to convey they don't understand. Some even use hand signals to ask 'u ok?'. Only the Chinese pretend you didnt even utter a word or don't exist.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sanjaykumar » 28 Apr 2017 03:11

Point is valid enough; what is the said China man's interaction with random White asking the train time?

I don't find this standoffishness, at least in the females, they are in fact curious and not necessarily in an innocent way?

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby hanumadu » 28 Apr 2017 03:19

The chinese look down on the other SE Asians. The rest of the SE Asians have no problem mixing among them selves and being friends with each other like the vietnamese, phillippinos, thais etc. But the chinese seem to make it a point to let others know they are chinese and openly indicate they are not se asians and hence better than them.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Suraj » 28 Apr 2017 03:26

hnair wrote:suraj,no right or wrong judgements, please! We all are posting this based on our personal observations. I am saying they are being meek, if they agree to any crap that is thrown at them by their leadership, even if couched in divinity.

Hi hnair, I missed this post earlier, but I want to acknowledge that I agree with you :)

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Suraj » 28 Apr 2017 06:44

hanumadu wrote:The chinese look down on the other SE Asians. The rest of the SE Asians have no problem mixing among them selves and being friends with each other like the vietnamese, phillippinos, thais etc. But the chinese seem to make it a point to let others know they are chinese and openly indicate they are not se asians and hence better than them.

Looking back at the Cultural Revolution and their inter-dynasty violence, my view is that they are a... strange people. They're probably the only people who's greatest historical violence is not towards an outsider, but towards each other. There isn't even an ethno/religious/linguistic distinction, except to a very limited extent (e.g. persecution of Hakkas, though they're quite successful - Sun Yat-sen and Deng Xiaoping were Hakka). Essentially just clans of people clawing at each other viciously in competition, and running up incredible death tolls while fighting. Everywhere else it was some other religion, race or other artifact that was a motivator. So, while Chinese may be crude towards others, they've historically been cruelest towards one another, not others, and that too, without any specific basis. This is quite different from European colonialist mindset or their own notions of supremacy.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 28 Apr 2017 07:13

Suraj wrote:
hanumadu wrote:The chinese look down on the other SE Asians. The rest of the SE Asians have no problem mixing among them selves and being friends with each other like the vietnamese, phillippinos, thais etc. But the chinese seem to make it a point to let others know they are chinese and openly indicate they are not se asians and hence better than them.

Looking back at the Cultural Revolution and their inter-dynasty violence, my view is that they are a... strange people. They're probably the only people who's greatest historical violence is not towards an outsider, but towards each other. There isn't even an ethno/religious/linguistic distinction, except to a very limited extent (e.g. persecution of Hakkas, though they're quite successful - Sun Yat-sen and Deng Xiaoping were Hakka). Essentially just clans of people clawing at each other viciously in competition, and running up incredible death tolls while fighting. Everywhere else it was some other religion, race or other artifact that was a motivator. So, while Chinese may be crude towards others, they've historically been cruelest towards one another, not others, and that too, without any specific basis. This is quite different from European colonialist mindset or their own notions of supremacy.

Well - going down a philosophical route it appears to me (as has been pointed out by many) that communism and Islam demand strict top down discipline with violent punishment to those who rebel. Looks like Chinese culture was made for this.

The concept of complete individual freedom is more in tune with the Indian ethos - and democracy suits this though democracy actually restricts freedoms of a libertarian society. In other words democratic structures may simply have suited Indian society because of the freedoms associated with it.

Which brings me to the point that individual freedom has never been a feature of some societies which may have over tens of centuries simply weeded out any possible genetic lines of people who sought freedoms in favour of retaining people who either try to dominate or submit. In other words - lack of democracy & individual freedoms may be an innate feature of some human societies.

But I digress - the Chinese need to be dealt with in a manner that they understand by behaving in ways hat they do not see as submission. To us the behaviour seems boorish and impolite - but if that is what the Chinese understand - that is what they must get. I am (still) reading Kunal Verma's book on the 1962 war. Many Indian soldiers in those days used to refer to the Chinese as "afeemchis" - or Opium addicts and the Chinese too knew that the Indian army had vast combat experience in WW 2. That contemptuous reference is essential. Nowadays we have to much fake liberalism where we say "We must consider everyone the same and treat everyone with politeness. respect the other person's capabilities and uniqueness" and all that crap. Nonsense. Chinese need to be greeted with a welcome that says "Bugger off cockroach eater"

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 28 Apr 2017 07:18

Another gem from the forum lurker, who is willing to be identified as HayaGreevaPutra
The next one is about Family/Clan dynamics in Chinese stories. But first imagine an Indian Family. A joint family of three generations. The youngest gen all hang out together, they are brilliant, and successful in life. But one brother/cousin is different. He is average, and not very remarkable. How would his family treat him? Would they throw him out.? No, typically the family takes care of him the most. And his brothers/cousins will try to help him 'settle' in life. Not in Chinese clans/ families. Everything is a competition between the younger generation. EVERYTHING. Your value to the family lies in not you being part of the family and sharing the same blood but in your utility to the family. The moment you lose your utility, you lose your value. This is the reason why the Chinese are so stuck-up about face and posturing and being seen wearing expensive stuff. Its a signal of their utility as well as their indispensability. A typical staring point for Chinese fantasy stories is to show a Useless guy, who has no talent and no future and how everybody insults him, and suddenly he acquires some secret art or treasure that allows him to "Leap over the dragon gate" Become powerful. Then everybody starts sucking up to him and he takes his revenge on those who wronged and bullied him when he was weak. This point is extremely popular among Chinese readers, which points out the deep insecurity they harbor about their place in society. The most horrible thing is to become a 'useless' person, who can not have a place at any table. So the reason Chinese blindly follow their CPC is not because they think they are telling the truth.

The secret is to understand the fact that to a typical Chinese, it doesn't matter if the govt is lying, as long as listening to the CPC and nodding their heads gives them a sense of belonging to a larger whole. So expecting to convince a Chinese to hate the CPC by proving they are lying is moot, because that's no the reason he follows them. The reason he follows them is because they are Strong and give the Chinese a feeling of belonging to a mythical larger 'Chinese people' where he is part of something important. So the only reason a Chinese will have to lose faith in the CPC is if either they lose their sense of belonging foisted by the CPC or they have doubts regarding the Strength, Power of the CPC. Which is the reason why the CPC has bombarded them with Hyper Nationalism while being paranoid about 'losing face' internationally for it erodes their aura of Strength. For If they lose it, the now fawning masses will eat them alive. SO the Chinese will take any amount of abuse from their CPC, any amount of humiliation, as long as they are convinced of the absolute strength of The CPC. The only time a Chinese will rebel is when he perceives the authority here(CPC) as not being strong. Otherwise when suppressed by absolute strength,like they are now with the CPC, they will go to any lengths to justify their own oppression and will never rebel. That's why those talking of a 'democratic' revolution without weakening the CPC are smoking pot. As long as the CPC is strong, the Chinese will take any amount of suffering.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Kashi » 28 Apr 2017 07:50

Fascinating points Shiv. Just curious to know if the forum lurker would be able to shed more light on a line of thought I was pursuing.

He states that "Otherwise when suppressed by absolute strength,like they are now with the CPC, they will go to any lengths to justify their own oppression and will never rebel."

So, is this abuse and oppression is only accepted when done by Han Chinese? Shouldn't they have behaved the same way when the Japanese gave it to them in the early 2th century..

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 28 Apr 2017 07:52

^^I am sure he will read your question. I will point him to it if he does not.

But he did say he will write more about attitudes to the Japanese with the following note
I will organise my thoughts with some notes and get back. But I will give you a hint. In all the stories I read, apart from all the powerful factions There is one Super faction that terrifies everyone. It has some basic characteristics. It's across the ocean, and is typically an Island or an Archipelago. One guess who they must be imagining subconsciously.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 28 Apr 2017 07:57

Here is a note from lurker HayaGreevaPutra that I think I missed posting earlier
Next is a Sect/University/Place of learning. We in India are used to a place of learning as a place where everybody is equal and ego has no place. The typical description of a Sect in Chinese stories is that of a sealed can of worms who must eat each other to survive.Everybody is your competitor, and they must be your stepping stones, people whom you trample to increase your own standing. The disparity in resources enjoyed is also blatant and unapologetic. Typically 95% of resources are monopolized by 5% of people, and this is thought to be natural as it differentiates "Mediocre" people from "Heaven's Chosen" This blatant discrimination is rationalized by saying that the resources would be wasted on the 'mediocre' ones while the 'Chosen' would use it to its full potential. Another argument is the phrase "Worship the strong and despise the Weak" Even if the weak are innocent. Because who told them to offend the strong when they cannot afford to?

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2017 09:22

The sense of finding satisfaction in belonging to a greater whole and cause is probably how radical islam is able to mobilize across vast areas..the horde..the kabila..the qaum..the mob...it gives power to the weak and a chance of grabbing something they cannot do alone.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Baikul » 28 Apr 2017 10:37

shiv wrote:Another gem from the forum lurker, who is willing to be identified as HayaGreevaPutra
.............. Everything is a competition between the younger generation. EVERYTHING. Your value to the family lies in not you being part of the family and sharing the same blood but in your utility to the family. The moment you lose your utility, you lose your value. This is the reason why the Chinese are so stuck-up about face and posturing and being seen wearing expensive stuff. Its a signal of their utility as well as their indispensability. ............Then everybody starts sucking up to him and he takes his revenge on those who wronged and bullied him when he was weak. This point is extremely popular among Chinese readers, which points out the deep insecurity they harbor about their place in society. The most horrible thing is to become a 'useless' person, who can not have a place at any table. ...................


I wonder if this characteristic helps to power the Chinese style of capitalism. There needs to be a more concerted attempt to link various aspects of their national psyche to the pace and characteristics of economic development, and how their businesses function.

As a side note, I have a former classmate who went on to run a European MNC's business venture in China. He came back with incredible stories of rampant state driven snooping, outright theft of proprietary industrial blueprints /designs and corporate information by Chinese employees at the behest of the local government. The jv is close to being terminated.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2017 15:13

Well that psyche of deadly competition at each rung perhaps explains their jungle capitalist mode. Each year someone rules the smartphone hill there only to be pulled down.
I think they have had a upsc type exam for some 2000 years now (barring periods of anarchy) ...said to be very competitive then as now.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2017 15:39


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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2017 15:42

Image

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2017 19:08

how such a massive country and population can get into violent convulsions is hard to understand for a indian. the most hysteria we see here is at state level over the deaths of beloved leaders like NTR, Amma or MGR and there too, maybe a dozen people kill themselves in sorrow at most.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

Other aspects of the Red Guard onslaught were far more destructive, particularly in the realms of culture and religion. Historical sites in every part of the country were ransacked and destroyed. The damage was particularly pronounced in the capital, Beijing, a city rich in history and full of cultural relics, where thousands of designated sites of historical interest were destroyed. Red Guards also laid siege to the Temple of Confucius in Qufu, Shandong province.[39]

During these months of iconoclasm, Red Guards from Beijing Normal University desecrated and badly damaged the burial place of Confucius himself and numerous other historically significant tombs and artifacts. :shock: [40] The corpse of the 76th-generation Duke Yansheng was removed from its grave and hung naked from a tree in front of the palace during the desecration of the cemetery in the Cultural Revolution. :roll:

Libraries full of historical and foreign texts were destroyed; books were burned. Temples, churches, mosques, monasteries, and cemeteries were closed down and sometimes converted to other uses, looted, and destroyed.[42] Marxist propaganda depicted Buddhism as superstition, and religion was looked upon as a means of hostile foreign infiltration :roll: , as well as an instrument of the 'ruling class'.[43] Clergy were arrested and sent to camps; many Tibetan Buddhists were forced to participate in the destruction of their monasteries at gunpoint.[43]

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2017 19:09

based on what I read, chinese are just another form of the radical islam/plunderer kabila 'horde' concept....always needing resources to keep expanding to survive else the system will fall back and eat itself.


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