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Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2017 19:14

during the great leap forward, producing steel by any means was a prime goal...

Image

Image

the parents of todays early middle age chinese had to survive through these huge convulsions that killed tens of millions. it would surely impact their worldview and the upbringing of their kid.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2017 19:18

Public criticism sessions were often used to intimidate the peasants into obeying local cadres; they increased the death rate of the famine in several ways, according to Thaxton. "In the first case, blows to the body caused internal injuries that, in combination with physical emaciation and acute hunger, could induce death." In one case, after a peasant stole two cabbages from the common fields, the thief was publicly criticized for half a day. He collapsed, fell ill, and never recovered. Others were sent to labor camps.[28]

Frank Dikötter writes that beatings with sticks was the most common method used by local cadres and roughly half of all cadres regularly pummeled or caned people. Other cadres devised harsher means to humiliate and torture those who failed to keep up. As mass starvation set in, ever greater violence had to be inflicted in order to coerce malnourished people to labor in the fields. Victims were buried alive, thrown bound into ponds, stripped naked and forced to labor in the middle of winter, doused in boiling water, forced to ingest excrement and urine, and subjected to mutilation (hair ripped out, noses and ears lopped off). In Guangdong, some cadres injected salt water into their victims with needles normally reserved for cattle.[29] Around 6 to 8 percent of those who died during the Great Leap Forward were tortured to death or summarily killed.[30]

Benjamin Valentino notes that "communist officials sometimes tortured and killed those accused of failing to meet their grain quota.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2017 19:22

chairman mao in total between the cultural revolution + great leap forward + civil war vs KMT killed or destroyed the lives of around 100 million people.

and hitler is held as a devil for starting a war that killed some 20 million + 6 million jews. a small fry.

other famous tyrants even less.

Stalinji no sure whats his tally - high for sure.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby JayS » 28 Apr 2017 19:41

Singha wrote:
the parents of todays early middle age chinese had to survive through these huge convulsions that killed tens of millions. it would surely impact their worldview and the upbringing of their kid.


On that topic I once read a blog (tried but couldn't find it, was many years ago) which was meant to give some insight into the generation gap of CR generations and post CR generations. Since it was a blog and hence personal opinion from personal experiences it should be taken as such. But basically it tried to impress with many examples how "living on the edge" was considered living by the older generations and how they would consider new post CR generations who have not seen any of that, particularly the generations post 1990s, to be "pu$$ies". He gave many examples ranging from as trivial as road crossing to that famous dangerous trek of one Chinese Temple on Mount Huasan. Fir example, An old guy would walk as casually on the trail at Mount Huasan as he would cross the road without much looking around (Not his exact words or even meaning, I am paraphrasing the essence). And he would constantly taunt his grandson, who is more fearful and more careful while doing the same things, how weak he is and how he doesn't know to live life. The unnecessary bravado or risk taking was kind of mixture of both bravado and also a kind of disregard to dangers (you know, "jyada se jyada kya hoga" kind of attitude), perhaps due to the awful years through which they survived during CR and all. Or maybe it was like that for centuries in Chinese societies.

But on the other hand it seems the one child policy was a boon for younger generation, who would have had much harsher upbringing, if not for being single kid. Even then the parents are highly forceful with the kids, it seems. I have seem some documentaries on sports training where they put the kids in training schools at very young age of 3 and then basically beat them into shape by quite harsh training for 4-5yrs so they can one day get Olympic medal. (Wasn;t there some issue regarding underage Chinese gymnasts from Beijing Olympics?). This thing is quite evident from Chinese cinema as well.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby chola » 28 Apr 2017 20:06

I still say the best method of dealing with their boasting is attacking them and punching them in the back of their f:cking heads. All this psycho stuff (sorry, psycho"logy" is pseudo-science if you ask me) won't change the world they live in.

Delusional people don't suffer from their delusions unless someone force feed them the real world. In fact, it is probably a benefit to their mental health and well-being if someone is deluded enough to fully believe in their own greatness and superiority.

Day after day, OBOR, Olympics, AIIB, top trading title, Korea-Japan and EU competing for ugly Chinaman tourist, etc. all contribute to their well-being. It would be great if we can, as Shiv suggests, tell them to "Bugger off, roach-eater" when they approach us. But other than a few paid 50-cents operatives like Liu, they do not live in our world.

So how do we force feed them the real world and get rid of their delusions of superiority and arrogance? By kinetic force! See how arrogant you are with a Brahmos up your arse! It is time we reverse 1962 anyways.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 28 Apr 2017 20:23

chola wrote:I still say the best method of dealing with their boasting is attacking them and punching them in the back of their f:cking heads. All this psycho stuff (sorry, psycho"logy" is pseudo-science if you ask me) won't change the world they live in.

Delusional people don't suffer from their delusions unless someone force feed them the real world. In fact, it is probably a benefit to their mental health and well-being if someone is deluded enough to fully believe in their own greatness and superiority.

Day after day, OBOR, Olympics, AIIB, top trading title, Korea-Japan and EU competing for ugly Chinaman tourist, etc. all contribute to their well-being. It would be great if we can, as Shiv suggests, tell them to "Bugger off, roach-eater" when they approach us. But other than a few paid 50-cents operatives like Liu, they do not live in our world.

So how do we force feed them the real world and get rid of their delusions of superiority and arrogance? By kinetic force! See how arrogant you are with a Brahmos up your arse! It is time we reverse 1962 anyways.


The thing with China is, they care more about losing face than anyone else on this planet. Translated into warfare, it means they will fight not just for strategic and tactical goals, but also to save face. So 'sticking BRAHMOS up their hiney' will work to teach them a lesson, if and only if, we are prepared to escalate to full-scale war or atleast, have a strong enough conventional force to deter them from doing so. Because unlike PAK or other nations, it won't just be a border skirmish with finger-pointing. It will escalate, as the Chinese have the need to deliver 'the last blow' due to psychological reasons.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 28 Apr 2017 20:57

Kashi wrote:Fascinating points Shiv. Just curious to know if the forum lurker would be able to shed more light on a line of thought I was pursuing.

He states that "Otherwise when suppressed by absolute strength,like they are now with the CPC, they will go to any lengths to justify their own oppression and will never rebel."

So, is this abuse and oppression is only accepted when done by Han Chinese? Shouldn't they have behaved the same way when the Japanese gave it to them in the early 2th century..

Answers to your questions from HayagreevaPutra
There are many assumptions in this question.

Assumption 1. That somehow the Japanese were a "special case" in terms of the no of atrocities, their cruelty and suffering inflicted on the Chinese. That what the Japanese did was somehow far worse than anything the Chinese ever experienced. That there was no comparison. Wrong. What the Chinese did to their own people and what their Dynasties and Emperors inflicted is FAR worse. As an example, how did the Japanese punish rebellion.? Summary execution. Maybe a little dramatic with beheading by Katana, but that was it. How did the Chinese emperor punish "rebellion"? (Which btw could include anything from farting in presence to looking at him in a way he thought was funny). Nine familial extermination/annihilation. What does this mean.? It means to kill nine generations of the criminal's family,The criminal's living parents, The criminal's living grandparents, Any children the criminal may have and if married their spouses, Any grandchildren the criminal may have and if married their spouses, Siblings and siblings-in-law, Uncles and aunts of the criminal, as well as their spouses, The criminal's cousins, The criminal's spouse , The criminal's spouse's parents , and finally after watching all of their executions, the criminal was executed by dismemberment. Such joy. Nanjing festivities? When the Manchu fell, all of Manchu women were forced to marry and have children with non-Manchus, so as to destroy bloodlines and Kinship groups. The same happened with any defeated group. So, comparing what the Chinese did to themselves via their dynasties etc, the Japanese for all their bad rep would not even reach middle tier in terms of Historical cruelty and atrocities done by Chinese themselves. So, this claim that what the Japanese did some how scarred China is a piece of Chinese propaganda. What the Chinese did to themselves was far worse. The reason people fall for this is because they are unfamiliar with Chinese history and their obscene bodycount in internal warfare. So, what an Indian or a European might consider to be very high bodycount, is not even a big blip on the Chinese historical radar. This myth serves to paint themselves as victims and to " avenge the century of humiliation ", Nevermind they were humiliated many times before, but by their own people, so blaming them wouldn't serve to consolidate power now would it?

Assumption 2. Why don't the Chinese hate their own dynasties but hate the Japanese.?

What makes you think they don't hate their own dynasties? But it is a very special and unique way of hating that a non-Chinese won't get. Let's take an example. There is a dynasty A, which was overthrown after bloody warfare and obscene bodycount. Dynasty B is now in charge. What they will do is proclaim they have the " Mandate of Heaven" and blame Dynasty A for all evils and atrocities. So, A becomes the scapegoat for B to consolidate power. Then B falls and after another time of bloody warfare C is now in charge. They will push all the blame onto B and say how Dynasty A was falsely accused when they were actually righteous and Just. Now, B becomes the scapegoat and A's " Mandate of Heaven" is inherited by C, who "cleared his name" and "Avenged the injustice done to them". So, whenever a new dynasty takes power in China they will blame their immediate predecessors for all evils and proclaim themselves as the inheritors of all the Good things done by everybody before these predecessors. So, who ever came before becomes a hate object. Who came before the CPC? The Japanese. So, the Japanese are the hate objects. Interestingly both the Nationalists and Communists (Who both claimed separately their right to rule China) Promoted hatred against the Japanese for their " Atrocities" as a means to consolidate their power and proclaim their right to the new " Mandate of heaven". So, If the CPC falls in the future, they will become the scapegoats who will be the incarnation of the devil. We have already seen a "Mini" version of this in how the "Gang of Four" were purged and eventually blamed for all the Pre-Deng mistakes, there by allowing the CPC to consolidate it's base with a new "Mandate of Heaven" . So, this promotion of the hatred of the predecessor dynasty by the current dynasty is a regular feature of Chinese history and The Japanese are the latest victims of this.

So, hate the immediate Predecessor dynasty but love everybody before them. Which is the reason why the Chinese seem to be okay with Atrocities committed by their own, When it's because those who came before the current crop of leaders were Japanese. If they were Chinese, you would see that particular faction demonized and not the Japanese.

Assumption 3. That hatred towards the Japanese is somehow a spontaneous natural Chinese reaction that the CPC is now hijacking for its own ends.

Wrong again. Both the Chinese nationalists and Communists in CPC used the Japanese as scapegoats and hate objects, in an effort to legitimize their hold on power. The hatred towards the Japanese is artificially maintained and Channelized by the CPC into legitimizing their hold on power, by using Education to brainwash the Chinese people. By stating that the CPC is the one who has the "Heavenly right" to rule because they are the ones who are going "Avenge" them. Which is why this artificial hared causes a cognitive dissonance in the Chinese where they hate the Japanese politically, but love EVERYTHING Japanese culturally, down to Japanese po*nography. Because Historically speaking, the Chinese have more reason to hate their own people than the Japanese. They know this subconsciously, But the current political/power dynamics will not allow their minds to consciously accept it. Which is why they will go apeshit the moment you point fingers at their own Historical blunders and inadequacies, because acknowledging them will bring the whole mental " House of Cards" down. They would much rather blame the Japanese in daytime and go back to Jacking off to Japanese p*rn at night. Anything else is harmful to their mental health.

I hope that answers the question by both you and Kashi ji about the Japanese.


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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby chola » 28 Apr 2017 21:06

SriJoy wrote:
chola wrote:I still say the best method of dealing with their boasting is attacking them and punching them in the back of their f:cking heads. All this psycho stuff (sorry, psycho"logy" is pseudo-science if you ask me) won't change the world they live in.

Delusional people don't suffer from their delusions unless someone force feed them the real world. In fact, it is probably a benefit to their mental health and well-being if someone is deluded enough to fully believe in their own greatness and superiority.

Day after day, OBOR, Olympics, AIIB, top trading title, Korea-Japan and EU competing for ugly Chinaman tourist, etc. all contribute to their well-being. It would be great if we can, as Shiv suggests, tell them to "Bugger off, roach-eater" when they approach us. But other than a few paid 50-cents operatives like Liu, they do not live in our world.

So how do we force feed them the real world and get rid of their delusions of superiority and arrogance? By kinetic force! See how arrogant you are with a Brahmos up your arse! It is time we reverse 1962 anyways.


The thing with China is, they care more about losing face than anyone else on this planet. Translated into warfare, it means they will fight not just for strategic and tactical goals, but also to save face. So 'sticking BRAHMOS up their hiney' will work to teach them a lesson, if and only if, we are prepared to escalate to full-scale war or atleast, have a strong enough conventional force to deter them from doing so. Because unlike PAK or other nations, it won't just be a border skirmish with finger-pointing. It will escalate, as the Chinese have the need to deliver 'the last blow' due to psychological reasons.



I think the face thing is bullshit if you ever had to deal PRC (not just chini) businessmen. It is far more important for the Chini diaspora than for the PRC. Face is a lever that keeps a Taiwanese or Hongkie or a Han Singaporean from screwing you on an agreement based simply on a handshake. Try trusting face to for with someone from the PRC.

The same goes for WTO and trade negotiatons as well as tech transfers. They will debase themselves to lowest level ("we're 3rd world, we need the same deal as Somalia", "we're poor and backwards, we need you to give this chip design") if it means gaining an advantage.

Being considered an untrustworthy cheat and a pauper needing special treatment wouldn't give them much face whatever their criteria are.

So a nice little attack with gains just to the 1962 borders -- maybe a wee bit more -- while they are engaged with more critical (to them) stuff in the East? It might not necessarily result in an all out nuclear war. Unlike the diaspora chinis they might not let face or pride or whatever intangibles get in the way of survival.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 28 Apr 2017 21:23

chola wrote:

I think the face thing is bullshit if you ever had to deal PRC (not just chini) businessmen. It is far more important for the Chini diaspora than for the PRC. Face is a lever that keeps a Taiwanese or Hongkie or a Han Singaporean from screwing you on an agreement based simply on a handshake. Try trusting face to for with someone from the PRC.

The same goes for WTO and trade negotiatons as well as tech transfers. They will debase themselves to lowest level ("we're 3rd world, we need the same deal as Somalia", "we're poor and backwards, we need you to give this chip design") if it means gaining an advantage.

Being considered an untrustworthy cheat and a pauper needing special treatment wouldn't give them much face whatever their criteria are.

So a nice little attack with gains just to the 1962 borders -- maybe a wee bit more -- while they are engaged with more critical (to them) stuff in the East? It might not necessarily result in an all out nuclear war. Unlike the diaspora chinis they might not let face or pride or whatever intangibles get in the way of survival.


Well i don't think it will be a 'little war' if we try to take over Aksai Chin. I feel like you are under-estimating the Chinese. If they were willing to go to full scale war over Aksai Chin in the 60s, they will, 100% guarantee, come back and engage in full-scale war to reclaim Aksai Chin once their 'eastern issues' are resolved, given that China is far richer and more powerful now than in the 60s.
Either way, do you think India has the proper logistics and infrastructure in place to actually hold Aksai Chin, even if we capture it ? To my knowledge, the terrain and logistics supply line heavily favours the Chinese in Aksai Chin.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Suraj » 28 Apr 2017 21:49

Sounds like HayagreevaPutra is saying the same things I am :) Would be nice if he (re)joined but let's respect his anonymity for now...

As I mentioned multiple times across multiple threads recently, the Chinese have been most cruel and vicious towards themselves. Most of the world simply doesn't know or realize the import of the ridiculous killing stats they've generated essentially every dynastic switch . At the start of Common Era, as the Han dynasty fell apart, 4 million died . But back then the *world* population was what, 150 million ?

They've been almost literally decimating their population at the end of every dynastic epoch . No other civilization comes close . We make a big deal of the 1857 War of Independence, a history altering conflict . By their standards that was a minor skirmish .

They will be predisposed to tenaciously grab any little advantage they can . It's a survival instinct. They also don't seek status quo because really, look at it like a Chinese - what is 'status quo' ? They need to keep moving because they could get killed in a future epochal war . Their intent will always be to grab as much as they can , when they can, because the unspoken insecurity behind it is that they know they can lose it just as quickly .

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2017 22:09

vast economic system of prison camps

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 28 Apr 2017 22:14

So basically the impression is, Chinese history is that of ultra-survivalism and their mainstream society glorifies/objectifies the ultimate survivalist traits.
I wonder how it got that way.
It'd be easy to blame the Mongols/Mongol ancestors for continuous brutalizing of the Chinese to the point they are a society of psychopaths. But one sees through chinese history that the chinese were just as bloodthirsty towards each other during the Spring and Autumn period, long before the 'ancestors of Mongols/Turks' posed anything more than minor raiding threats to the border cities.

So what would explain such a brutal, psychopathic, hunger-games-esque mentality in the Chinese society ? They are, after all, like India, Egypt and Mesopotamia, a society based on farming surpluses and by historic standards, one of the 'lands of plenty'.
So why is their society more competitive and heinous-minded than even the Turks/Mongols who lived in far less plentiful circumstances, translating to far more favouritism of 'dog-eat-dog' mentality ?

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby hnair » 28 Apr 2017 22:22

SriJoy wrote:To my knowledge, the terrain and logistics supply line heavily favours the Chinese in Aksai Chin.


Please do read up the Shiver or Die thread in the Military forum. The terrain or the altitude favors no one. China's rail lines are for keeping Tibet integrated to their economy, not as a central war-fighting device. Their rail line has quite a few "modern marvels" of bridges, tunnels etc. Problem with modern marvels is that they are difficult to replicate in a few days of war. The first few hours of war will see their rail lines out of action, due to some not-so-easily replaceable bridges etc being taken out. But that is just the central plateau. Towards the rim of Himalayas, their logistics gets stretched. Of the two sides, only India has shown the resolve to man the outer edges of its empire and keep it kitted up by a vast air transport fleet and it has kept training quite a few Tibetans into fighting units.. Shiv has repeatedly posted maps and sat-images, China's side is forlorn

The Chinese economy wont be in any shape to deal with even a Burmese border slap, after dealing with its "eastern issues". Its eastern issues can end only in glassy parking lots, as the euphemism in BRF goes. An attack and overrun by India, if there are eastern issues for China, will have a positive outcome for India

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 28 Apr 2017 22:25

^
Yes but don't the Chinese have year-round access to Aksai Chin, due to their passes in the KunLun and we are stuck on the south side of the Karakoram, with no passage in the winter months to Aksai Chin ? That would make just Aksai Chin logistically hard to hold, no ?

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Suraj » 28 Apr 2017 22:28

The Mongols have nothing to do with this Chinese behavior . They've been at each other's throats this way for more than 1000 years before Genghis Khan was born, when the first Chinese dynasty - the Qin Dynasry - was founded much further southeast of Mongol lands.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby hnair » 28 Apr 2017 22:39

SriJoy, I dont think you are going to change your line of "china has advantage", regardless of open source evidence. I reached this conclusion from the way you have brushed aside the point about India operating one of the largest and active transport fleets outside of perhaps NATO, since early 80s on the Indian side to deal with winter, heights and remoteness. The India of 80s is most certainly not as capable or rich as India right now, yet this vast logistics network was run with great effectiveness and cost for decades. Also you are not helping your arguments, by mentioning "passes" without names.

Anyways, this is not the thread for such details. Please read the entire thread in military forum and post there.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 28 Apr 2017 22:52

Suraj wrote:The Mongols have nothing to do with this Chinese behavior . They've been at each other's throats this way for more than 1000 years before Genghis Khan was born, when the first Chinese dynasty - the Qin Dynasry - was founded much further southeast of Mongol lands.


Thats why i said 'mongols/mongol ancestors'. The Xiongnu were the ancestors to Mongols, Turks and most likely the Huns and look up Modo Chanyu. He put a beat-down on the Han empire that the Chinese are not keen to talk about. Took Chinese royal princesses into his harem as well.

I am simply perplexed by this phenomena of Chinese uber-ruthlessness inbuilt into their society, because this is unique, coming from a people from 'lands of plenty and built on food surplus'. Such ruthlessness is seen in medieval northern europe or the steppes, where those societies were not lands of plenty and it fostered intercene violence.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby chola » 28 Apr 2017 23:07

That uber competitiveness is based on simply having too many (carnivorous) people. lol

But it is an agricultural settled civilization at heart. SYRE.

Cheen is banking on its printing press and industrial (over)capacity to change facts on ground and at sea. Without war.

Cheen is not a warrior nation. Not like the US or Japan or Germany. But it is not like Pakistan which is delusional about its "martial" qualities. The PLA assidiously avoided war like chickens for 40 years because they are hard-nosed about its actual capability. In fact, I believe they "unilaterally withdrew" in 1962 because it knew payback was coming and wisely took the prudent path.

Without war, it will take over the SCS by filling it with cutters, corvettes and frigates. Without war, it will stand a chance of infiltrating and influencing every nation between itself and Europe through OBOR. Without war, their CBG will sail freely into the IOR and Persuan Gulf and persuade the sundry muzzies between Gwadar and the Suez that Cheen is a power on par with Unkil and you can throw your muzzie lot with the lizard.

That is the future of our world without war. Cheenie arrogance unchallenged by fire gives full advantage to its printing press and factories.

All this we can make disappear with a nice little war.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 28 Apr 2017 23:31

shiv wrote:Another gem from the forum lurker, who is willing to be identified as HayaGreevaPutra


Shiv-ji, can you ask our informative lurker, on why Chinese culture is so dog-eat-dog ? Chinese society evolved in similar fashion as Indian/Mesopotamian/Egyptian : farming society, based on food surprlus. Ie, its a 'land of plenty'. So why do we see such barbarism from such society ? Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Indians, Greeks, etc. were not so barbarous towards one another and that makes sense, given that basic necessities were plentiful in these lands.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 28 Apr 2017 23:41

Deleted
Last edited by Suraj on 28 Apr 2017 23:48, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: This isn't an India-China thread.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby RohitAM » 29 Apr 2017 00:29

From what I know and what I've read, after the Japanese, it is the Chinese who are most fearful of "losing face" in any situation, regardless of how they might behave at the high table of nations such as the WTO, because they always keep a clear undercurrent going with the other members that China is foremost in terms of economic and military capability, and it is the de-facto leader. Whether that be at the WTO, BRICS, SCO whatever - it is the Chinese who are supposed to be considered the foremost power at the table.

The primary difference is that while the Japanese usually revert to self-flagellation/remorse/harakiri as the end result of loss of face, the Chinese are more than liable to lash outwards, against the person or entity which caused them to lose face publicly. The hatred towards Vietnam, Japan, even Korea stems from the same sentiment - these were "inferior" races which humiliated them, so they have to be put down at every opportunity. That's why in 1962, China orchestrated its own withdrawal from India before being mauled by the IAF and IA reinforcements arriving in force in the Eastern theatre and showed it as their victory and a means of making India understand that it will always be below China, because China can do whatever it wants.

If we were to ever commit to military action in Tibet or beyond, rest assured, the Chinese will come out fighting, regardless of the degradation of their supply lines at the hands of the IAF or our missile batteries. However, until recently, the Chinese knew that they can, if push comes to shove, "punish" India in a border war by nuking the main Indian cities and keeping the Han core safe from an equivalent Indian reaction. The Agni V and the K-4 change that equation substantially - suddenly, the Han core of Beijing and Shanghai is "fair game" to an overwhelming Indian nuclear response, as spelt out very clearly in our nuclear doctrine. Hence, the constant squealing about the Agni V test - they know they can no longer win a war with India by simply nuking India - they would have nothing left at the end of it either, and that would spell doom for "The Middle Kingdom", because there won't be a kingdom left worth its name to stand amongst the world's elite with its head held high and its dignity/face intact.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby sanjaykumar » 29 Apr 2017 00:39

And of course, we are performing for the Han masses, performance art that is lost on them. China's CCP is certainly autistic, as adept at manufacturing a reality as the ghazis to the west.

The delta national power between China and India has peaked-peak delta-China is left with maneuvering for a type of entente cordiale , on its terms, belatedly realising that India may be about to jettison its nonaligned hangover. A US-India+japan axis is a nightmare for China.

It is offensive in the extreme to read China Crimes, or People's Daily (dump), but we need to understand the reasons behind the patronisation, bullying and discourtesy.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 29 Apr 2017 01:04

sanjaykumar wrote:And of course, we are performing for the Han masses, performance art that is lost on them. China's CCP is certainly autistic, as adept at manufacturing a reality as the ghazis to the west.

The delta national power between China and India has peaked-peak delta-China is left with maneuvering for a type of entente cordiale , on its terms, belatedly realising that India may be about to jettison its nonaligned hangover. A US-India+japan axis is a nightmare for China.

It is offensive in the extreme to read China Crimes, or People's Daily (dump), but we need to understand the reasons behind the patronisation, bullying and discourtesy.


I think China, as pointed out in this thread, is a gambler-mentality nation. Therefore, i see them blocking a potential US-India-Japan-SoKo alliance by threatening at top of their voice to militarize the South China sea and bar transit.
I am not sure how 'avoidable' is South China sea for Japan and SoKo for transit. The alternative is to re-route through Celebes sea and Java sea, before re-emerging at Singapore. That adds an extra 2000 kms of transit. So i expect this militarization of SCS is going to be used as a Chinese preening-bluff game to deter India-Japan-US to form an alliance akin to NATO.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 29 Apr 2017 06:07

SriJoy wrote:To my knowledge, the terrain and logistics supply line heavily favours the Chinese in Aksai Chin.

OT here so my reply is linked below
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7304&p=2149491#p2149491

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 29 Apr 2017 06:17

SriJoy wrote:
shiv wrote:Another gem from the forum lurker, who is willing to be identified as HayaGreevaPutra


Shiv-ji, can you ask our informative lurker, on why Chinese culture is so dog-eat-dog ? Chinese society evolved in similar fashion as Indian/Mesopotamian/Egyptian : farming society, based on food surprlus. Ie, its a 'land of plenty'. So why do we see such barbarism from such society ? Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Indians, Greeks, etc. were not so barbarous towards one another and that makes sense, given that basic necessities were plentiful in these lands.

I have my own theory, posted on the previous page
going down a philosophical route it appears to me (as has been pointed out by many) that communism and Islam demand strict top down discipline with violent punishment to those who rebel. Looks like Chinese culture was made for this.

The concept of complete individual freedom is more in tune with the Indian ethos - and democracy suits this though democracy actually restricts freedoms of a libertarian society. In other words democratic structures may simply have suited Indian society because of the freedoms associated with it.

Which brings me to the point that individual freedom has never been a feature of some societies which may have over tens of centuries simply weeded out any possible genetic lines of people who sought freedoms in favour of retaining people who either try to dominate or submit. In other words - lack of democracy & individual freedoms may be an innate feature of some human societies.

These societies are not going to "become democratic" anytime soon

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 29 Apr 2017 06:41

SriJoy wrote:
shiv wrote:Another gem from the forum lurker, who is willing to be identified as HayaGreevaPutra


Shiv-ji, can you ask our informative lurker, on why Chinese culture is so dog-eat-dog ? Chinese society evolved in similar fashion as Indian/Mesopotamian/Egyptian : farming society, based on food surprlus. Ie, its a 'land of plenty'. So why do we see such barbarism from such society ? Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Indians, Greeks, etc. were not so barbarous towards one another and that makes sense, given that basic necessities were plentiful in these lands.

HayaGreevaPutra's response
About SriJoy ji's question. This is one of the enduring puzzles of China that nobody has been able to resolve, Because all the material that is Pre-Qin is lost in the "Burning of books and burying of scholars" by Qin Shi huang. All records before his rule , all books, and all languages and scripts before him were destroyed. Completely. The only doctrine that survived was "LEGALISM". So, because we have no info at all regarding their Pre-Qin history beliefs and Philosophies, save for scattered archaeological evidence but none That is documented. This gap of information makes it very difficult to trace the Sociological evolution of Chinese society and what factors influenced it. My guess is the loss of all that guiding philosophy along with Qin Shi huang's narcissistic grandeur and obsession with "Unification" caught on widely but the moderation influence provided by Pre-Qin beliefs and philosophies was lost. Which caused an escalating cycle of Self-perpetuating vicious cycle of bloody warfare. Sort of Like a Perpetual Motion Machine of Violence with no moderating attenuation provided, because the framework of Beliefs and Philosophies ( and the people who studied them and taught them) that provided that moderation were lost.

https://t.co/ReKq1cVyAL


Chancellor Li Si Said: "I, your servant, propose that all historians' records other than those of Qin's be burned. With the exception of the academics whose duty includes possessing books, if anyone under heaven has copies of the Shi Jing [Classic of Poetry], the Shujing [Classic of History], or the writings of the hundred schools of philosophy, they shall deliver them (the books) to the governor or the commandant for burning. Anyone who dares to discuss the Shi Jing or the Classic of History shall be publicly executed. Anyone who uses history to criticize the present shall have his family executed. Any official who sees the violations but fails to report them is equally guilty. Anyone who has failed to burn the books after thirty days of this announcement shall be subjected to tattooing and be sent to build the Great Wall. The books that have exemption are those on medicine, divination, agriculture, and forestry. Those who have interest in laws shall instead study from officials."[a]
—Shiji Chapter 6. "The Basic Annals of the First Emperor of Qin" thirty-fourth year (213 BC)

Which proves just how ruthlessly all info was purged. Its kind of tragic actually.

Another quote

Three categories of books were viewed by Li Si to be most dangerous politically. These were poetry (particularly the Shi Jing), history (Shujing and especially historical records of other states than Qin), and philosophy. The ancient collection of poetry and historical records contained many stories concerning the ancient virtuous rulers. Li Si believed that if the people were to read these works they were likely to invoke the past and become dissatisfied with the present. The reason for opposing various schools of philosophy was that they advocated political ideas often incompatible with the totalitarian regime

Which proves how paranoid Qin Shi huang was about somebody knowing about an emperor who was better than him and questioning him. Tell me. Do you see any difference between what the CPC is doing now, and what Qin Shi huang did almost 2000 years ago.? Mao's "Cultural revolution" and "Great leap Forward" resulting in death of intellectuals and burning of books, heirlooms, monks and temples doesn't seem so unusual or "revolutionary" now does it? He was just a narcissist with delusions of grandeur following another narcissist with delusions of grandeur from 2200 years ago. History does seem to recur itself doesn't it?

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 29 Apr 2017 06:46

RohitAM wrote:the Han core of Beijing and Shanghai is "fair game" to an overwhelming Indian nuclear response, as spelt out very clearly in our nuclear doctrine. Hence, the constant squealing about the Agni V test - they know they can no longer win a war with India by simply nuking India - they would have nothing left at the end of it either, and that would spell doom for "The Middle Kingdom", because there won't be a kingdom left worth its name to stand amongst the world's elite with its head held high and its dignity/face intact.

The Han core must be kept under threat . The Emperor will be personally hurt and we will help the Chinese along the path to a new and murderous revolution.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Suraj » 29 Apr 2017 06:57

Qin Shi Huang was the prototype of paranoid Chinese despot, the last of which was Mao, though Eleven is showing budding abilities too. He died while on an expedition to find the 'elixir of everlasting life', and his quack, err Imperial Physician, prescribed him mercury to drink. He ruled from 220BC to 210BC as the first emperor of the founding Qin Dynasty. The interesting thing is that his mausoleum had been under construction between 246BC and 208BC. So he had basically plotted his grand resting place from which he expected to wake up and continue ruling, 25 years before he even got done with winning the bloody war of the Warring States Period.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Atmavik » 29 Apr 2017 08:52

Not very boastful here.

After #China's ban on Muslim names like 'Muhammad', this Chinese Deputy Chief of Mission at Chinese Embassy Pakistan deleted the Muslim part

https://twitter.com/Shahid_Qazi1/status/857637686877749248

@Q for the Haram Thread Maulaners. is int this Blasphemy?

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2017 09:17

A family member who works in a manufacturing mnc with ops in india usa and china with hq in usa casually remarked that of late the cheen unit had become very defiant and doing whatever they wanted and ignoring plans drafted in hq...people are at wits end how to control them politely per traditional norms.

So i asked..what is their share of current topline?
Ans... 30% :twisted: and growing

I said the defiance is going to increase until...all the i.p. and market insights is done stealing and the big boys move enmasse to a local competitor....across the city

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby shiv » 29 Apr 2017 09:31

All said and done it appears that Chinese contempt, criticism and boorish behaviour towards Indians is their way of saying " We are greater than you and will say anything we like and you can do nothing about it"

For a minute imagine that you are in China and someone treats you like this.

You have two choices. One is to bow your head and agree. the other is to deny and defy. The latter will earn you punishment.

But we are not in China - and these interactions are on the internet and in the media. So the question of being punished does not exist. Unfortunately I see Indians fall into three groups in reaction to Chinese arrogance and boastfulness
1. The people who agree that China is great, bow their head on the internet and lecture other Indians not to act cocky but learn from the Chinese. Unfortunately this only reinforces the reaction that the Chines want. Too much pseudo-dharma and truthfullness results in this travesty IMO

2. A second group tend to get all logical and say good things about India and bad things about China and expect reasonableness from the Chinese. Turns out they are wrong. No reasonableness can be expected. None will be given

3. That leaves only one possible reaction to a boastful Chinese - treat him with contempt and smear him with all the cultural, dietary and physical insults possible. Words like slanteye, shit eater, etc should be normal terms of endearment to get a conversation level. This appears to be the only way - but it suffers from the drawback that groups 1 and 2 of Indians will get their chaddis in a massive twist. But they can be made to learn no?

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 29 Apr 2017 10:25

Suraj wrote:Qin Shi Huang was the prototype of paranoid Chinese despot, the last of which was Mao, though Eleven is showing budding abilities too. He died while on an expedition to find the 'elixir of everlasting life', and his quack, err Imperial Physician, prescribed him mercury to drink. He ruled from 220BC to 210BC as the first emperor of the founding Qin Dynasty. The interesting thing is that his mausoleum had been under construction between 246BC and 208BC. So he had basically plotted his grand resting place from which he expected to wake up and continue ruling, 25 years before he even got done with winning the bloody war of the Warring States Period.


The best of the 'seemingly authentic Qin Shi Huang' tale, atleast IIRC, in the official records, is that of a 'quack' who assured the great emperor that elixir of mortality exists in the 'eastern isles' (possibly Japan), got him to give him several pounds of silver to finance an expedition to Japan and fecked off there, never to be heard from again!!
I hope the guy made it and had a nice life in Japan at the despot's expense!

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby SriJoy » 29 Apr 2017 13:07

shiv wrote:All said and done it appears that Chinese contempt, criticism and boorish behaviour towards Indians is their way of saying " We are greater than you and will say anything we like and you can do nothing about it"

For a minute imagine that you are in China and someone treats you like this.

You have two choices. One is to bow your head and agree. the other is to deny and defy. The latter will earn you punishment.

But we are not in China - and these interactions are on the internet and in the media. So the question of being punished does not exist. Unfortunately I see Indians fall into three groups in reaction to Chinese arrogance and boastfulness
1. The people who agree that China is great, bow their head on the internet and lecture other Indians not to act cocky but learn from the Chinese. Unfortunately this only reinforces the reaction that the Chines want. Too much pseudo-dharma and truthfullness results in this travesty IMO

2. A second group tend to get all logical and say good things about India and bad things about China and expect reasonableness from the Chinese. Turns out they are wrong. No reasonableness can be expected. None will be given

3. That leaves only one possible reaction to a boastful Chinese - treat him with contempt and smear him with all the cultural, dietary and physical insults possible. Words like slanteye, shit eater, etc should be normal terms of endearment to get a conversation level. This appears to be the only way - but it suffers from the drawback that groups 1 and 2 of Indians will get their chaddis in a massive twist. But they can be made to learn no?



The bolded part is where I'd disagree.
For two reasons:
a) racism, in and of itself, is dying a quick-ish death in most parts of the world. Indulging in it, will only serve to our detriment in the eyes of the ones who matter to us internationally. The Japanese or Koreans are also 'slant eyes' and won't kindly to racially derogatory terms that they also fit under. Just like how we Indians also get riled by Goras throwing 'brown scum' type epithets, even if it is to an Arab.

b) We have 'slant eyes' of our own in the North East. They are not exactly super-happy with the rest of India either. They also have legitimate gripes of racism from the 'mainlanders' as they call us. This will only alienate them further. I agree, dismissiveness is the way, but we must find a way that both offends the Chinese commoner but doesn't offend our Japanese/Korean friends or North-Eastern brothers.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2017 14:26

huntington was wrong about many things but right on one - the sino-islamic block is a natural alliance and it has formed up. their core memes are in sync so a natural fit.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby manju » 29 Apr 2017 15:28

Duplicated- deleted self
Last edited by manju on 29 Apr 2017 15:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby manju » 29 Apr 2017 15:30

Suraj wrote:Qin Shi Huang was the prototype of paranoid Chinese despot, the last of which was Mao, though Eleven is showing budding abilities too. He died while on an expedition to find the 'elixir of everlasting life', and his quack, err Imperial Physician, prescribed him mercury to drink. He ruled from 220BC to 210BC as the first emperor of the founding Qin Dynasty. The interesting thing is that his mausoleum had been under construction between 246BC and 208BC. So he had basically plotted his grand resting place from which he expected to wake up and continue ruling, 25 years before he even got done with winning the bloody war of the Warring States Period.


Contrast this with Chandra Gupta Maurya who kicked the Greeks out of india and then just at the age of 40 y renounced his throne and came down to shravanabelagola and died as a monk (starving to death voluntarily)

Renunciation VS narcissism
Last edited by manju on 29 Apr 2017 15:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby manju » 29 Apr 2017 15:37

shiv wrote:All said and done it appears that Chinese contempt, criticism and boorish behaviour towards Indians is their way of saying " We are greater than you and will say anything we like and you can do nothing about it"

For a minute imagine that you are in China and someone treats you like this.

You have two choices. One is to bow your head and agree. the other is to deny and defy. The latter will earn you punishment.

But we are not in China - and these interactions are on the internet and in the media. So the question of being punished does not exist. Unfortunately I see Indians fall into three groups in reaction to Chinese arrogance and boastfulness
1. The people who agree that China is great, bow their head on the internet and lecture other Indians not to act cocky but learn from the Chinese. Unfortunately this only reinforces the reaction that the Chines want. Too much pseudo-dharma and truthfullness results in this travesty IMO

2. A second group tend to get all logical and say good things about India and bad things about China and expect reasonableness from the Chinese. Turns out they are wrong. No reasonableness can be expected. None will be given

3. That leaves only one possible reaction to a boastful Chinese - treat him with contempt and smear him with all the cultural, dietary and physical insults possible. Words like slanteye, shit eater, etc should be normal terms of endearment to get a conversation level. This appears to be the only way - but it suffers from the drawback that groups 1 and 2 of Indians will get their chaddis in a massive twist. But they can be made to learn no?



Seems like deja vu!!

But only this time we are dealing with the taller than mountain friends instead of the pakis

If I am not mistaken We transitioned to the current stage where we call pakis the shit they are after going in circles anal lysing paki piskology

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby chola » 29 Apr 2017 17:02

RohitAM wrote:From what I know and what I've read, after the Japanese, it is the Chinese who are most fearful of "losing face" in any situation, regardless of how they might behave at the high table of nations such as the WTO, because they always keep a clear undercurrent going with the other members that China is foremost in terms of economic and military capability, and it is the de-facto leader. Whether that be at the WTO, BRICS, SCO whatever - it is the Chinese who are supposed to be considered the foremost power at the table.



How do you keep an "undercurrent" of superiority when you are groveling like dogs for every advantage, no every piece of WELFARE, that is supposed to help the poorest of the poor? We need to stop attributing mystical powers to chinis like the fictional Fu Manchu.

I've been involved with negotiations with clients pursuing tie-ups with Cheen that were between major firms on both sides. The Amreeki side were invariably completely floored by the undignified insistence for transfers and advantages to be given to their opposing side: "We are poor. We are underdeveloped. Please give is this and that. And the other thing because we are backwards."
My colleagues said the same in their experience. And this goes all the way to talks between national governments at the WTO. This groveling for every little piece of advantage is universal for PRC. Cheat, steal and lie for the smallest of an advantage. Face my arse.

But that is not to say there is nothing in the background because the reality of the consumption and market numbers are so enormous that most MNCs give into the chini tactics and hand them part of the family jewels. How do you think they've advanced so quickly? (The MNCs grab their pound of flesh later by marking things up. Everything from Iphones to Buicks to baby formula is far more expensive in China than the west but the chinis still lap them up.)

Cheat, lie and steal. Copy, spy or bribe for anything worth manufacturing for a market share or niche, no matter how seemingly insignificant. We hear of major chini textile firms stealing African looming patterns to grab some niche markets in the west. Not an ounce of dignity or face but admirable in a hardnosed business sense.

I say given a choice between continuous warfare over some empty plots at the edge of their empire or a peace so they can continue making money, such people would chose the latter. Very different from the Japanese who might resort to Kamikaze.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby chola » 29 Apr 2017 17:29

3. That leaves only one possible reaction to a boastful Chinese - treat him with contempt and smear him with all the cultural, dietary and physical insults possible. Words like slanteye, shit eater, etc should be normal terms of endearment to get a conversation level. This appears to be the only way - but it suffers from the drawback that groups 1 and 2 of Indians will get their chaddis in a massive twist. But they can be made to learn no?


Seriously, Shiv-ji. All of that psych-analyzing and we come down to calling them names as an answer?

We do that already! How many times have we called Liu and David names over the past decade and a half? Did that change their tactics? Or did that enbolden them? Liu acts exactly like racist whites trolling black and American minority forums. The angry and racial responses make him feel superior in the same way a white racist feeds off the angry comments of minorities.

Banning is the best solution in both cases.

But the best way to deal with chini arrogance is the most obvious one but which no one had mentioned so far. Way better than calling them names as funny as that may be.

And that is to ignore them completely. Do not have any thread that mention China in its title. Do not give them prominence of place in our forum. Treat them with disdain like the rich deal with paupers, deny that they even exists in our world.

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Re: Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2017 19:04



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