Roots of Chinese boastfulness - history & psyche

[hnair]

To my knowledge, the terrain and logistics supply line heavily favours the Chinese in Aksai Chin.

Please do read up the Shiver or Die thread in the Military forum. The terrain or the altitude favors no one. China's rail lines are for keeping Tibet integrated to their economy, not as a central war-fighting device. Their rail line has quite a few "modern marvels" of bridges, tunnels etc. Problem with modern marvels is that they are difficult to replicate in a few days of war. The first few hours of war will see their rail lines out of action, due to some not-so-easily replaceable bridges etc being taken out. But that is just the central plateau. Towards the rim of Himalayas, their logistics gets stretched. Of the two sides, only India has shown the resolve to man the outer edges of its empire and keep it kitted up by a vast air transport fleet and it has kept training quite a few Tibetans into fighting units.. Shiv has repeatedly posted maps and sat-images, China's side is forlorn

The Chinese economy wont be in any shape to deal with even a Burmese border slap, after dealing with its "eastern issues". Its eastern issues can end only in glassy parking lots, as the euphemism in BRF goes. An attack and overrun by India, if there are eastern issues for China, will have a positive outcome for India

[Suraj]

The Mongols have nothing to do with this Chinese behavior . They've been at each other's throats this way for more than 1000 years before Genghis Khan was born, when the first Chinese dynasty - the Qin Dynasry - was founded much further southeast of Mongol lands.

[hnair]

SriJoy, I dont think you are going to change your line of "china has advantage", regardless of open source evidence. I reached this conclusion from the way you have brushed aside the point about India operating one of the largest and active transport fleets outside of perhaps NATO, since early 80s on the Indian side to deal with winter, heights and remoteness. The India of 80s is most certainly not as capable or rich as India right now, yet this vast logistics network was run with great effectiveness and cost for decades. Also you are not helping your arguments, by mentioning "passes" without names.

Anyways, this is not the thread for such details. Please read the entire thread in military forum and post there.

[chola]

That uber competitiveness is based on simply having too many (carnivorous) people. lol

But it is an agricultural settled civilization at heart. SYRE.

Cheen is banking on its printing press and industrial (over)capacity to change facts on ground and at sea. Without war.

Cheen is not a warrior nation. Not like the US or Japan or Germany. But it is not like Pakistan which is delusional about its "martial" qualities. The PLA assidiously avoided war like chickens for 40 years because they are hard-nosed about its actual capability. In fact, I believe they "unilaterally withdrew" in 1962 because it knew payback was coming and wisely took the prudent path.

Without war, it will take over the SCS by filling it with cutters, corvettes and frigates. Without war, it will stand a chance of infiltrating and influencing every nation between itself and Europe through OBOR. Without war, their CBG will sail freely into the IOR and Persuan Gulf and persuade the sundry muzzies between Gwadar and the Suez that Cheen is a power on par with Unkil and you can throw your muzzie lot with the lizard.

That is the future of our world without war. Cheenie arrogance unchallenged by fire gives full advantage to its printing press and factories.

All this we can make disappear with a nice little war.

[RohitAM]

From what I know and what I've read, after the Japanese, it is the Chinese who are most fearful of "losing face" in any situation, regardless of how they might behave at the high table of nations such as the WTO, because they always keep a clear undercurrent going with the other members that China is foremost in terms of economic and military capability, and it is the de-facto leader. Whether that be at the WTO, BRICS, SCO whatever - it is the Chinese who are supposed to be considered the foremost power at the table.

The primary difference is that while the Japanese usually revert to self-flagellation/remorse/harakiri as the end result of loss of face, the Chinese are more than liable to lash outwards, against the person or entity which caused them to lose face publicly. The hatred towards Vietnam, Japan, even Korea stems from the same sentiment - these were "inferior" races which humiliated them, so they have to be put down at every opportunity. That's why in 1962, China orchestrated its own withdrawal from India before being mauled by the IAF and IA reinforcements arriving in force in the Eastern theatre and showed it as their victory and a means of making India understand that it will always be below China, because China can do whatever it wants.

If we were to ever commit to military action in Tibet or beyond, rest assured, the Chinese will come out fighting, regardless of the degradation of their supply lines at the hands of the IAF or our missile batteries. However, until recently, the Chinese knew that they can, if push comes to shove, "punish" India in a border war by nuking the main Indian cities and keeping the Han core safe from an equivalent Indian reaction. The Agni V and the K-4 change that equation substantially - suddenly, the Han core of Beijing and Shanghai is "fair game" to an overwhelming Indian nuclear response, as spelt out very clearly in our nuclear doctrine. Hence, the constant squealing about the Agni V test - they know they can no longer win a war with India by simply nuking India - they would have nothing left at the end of it either, and that would spell doom for "The Middle Kingdom", because there won't be a kingdom left worth its name to stand amongst the world's elite with its head held high and its dignity/face intact.

[sanjaykumar]

And of course, we are performing for the Han masses, performance art that is lost on them. China's CCP is certainly autistic, as adept at manufacturing a reality as the ghazis to the west.

The delta national power between China and India has peaked-peak delta-China is left with maneuvering for a type of entente cordiale , on its terms, belatedly realising that India may be about to jettison its nonaligned hangover. A US-India+japan axis is a nightmare for China.

It is offensive in the extreme to read China Crimes, or People's Daily (dump), but we need to understand the reasons behind the patronisation, bullying and discourtesy.

[shiv]

To my knowledge, the terrain and logistics supply line heavily favours the Chinese in Aksai Chin.

OT here so my reply is linked below
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7304&p=2149491#p2149491

[shiv]

Another gem from the forum lurker, who is willing to be identified as HayaGreevaPutra

Shiv-ji, can you ask our informative lurker, on why Chinese culture is so dog-eat-dog ? Chinese society evolved in similar fashion as Indian/Mesopotamian/Egyptian : farming society, based on food surprlus. Ie, its a 'land of plenty'. So why do we see such barbarism from such society ? Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Indians, Greeks, etc. were not so barbarous towards one another and that makes sense, given that basic necessities were plentiful in these lands.

I have my own theory, posted on the previous page

going down a philosophical route it appears to me (as has been pointed out by many) that communism and Islam demand strict top down discipline with violent punishment to those who rebel. Looks like Chinese culture was made for this.

The concept of complete individual freedom is more in tune with the Indian ethos - and democracy suits this though democracy actually restricts freedoms of a libertarian society. In other words democratic structures may simply have suited Indian society because of the freedoms associated with it.

Which brings me to the point that individual freedom has never been a feature of some societies which may have over tens of centuries simply weeded out any possible genetic lines of people who sought freedoms in favour of retaining people who either try to dominate or submit. In other words - lack of democracy & individual freedoms may be an innate feature of some human societies.

These societies are not going to "become democratic" anytime soon

[shiv]

Another gem from the forum lurker, who is willing to be identified as HayaGreevaPutra

Shiv-ji, can you ask our informative lurker, on why Chinese culture is so dog-eat-dog ? Chinese society evolved in similar fashion as Indian/Mesopotamian/Egyptian : farming society, based on food surprlus. Ie, its a 'land of plenty'. So why do we see such barbarism from such society ? Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Indians, Greeks, etc. were not so barbarous towards one another and that makes sense, given that basic necessities were plentiful in these lands.

HayaGreevaPutra's response

About SriJoy ji's question. This is one of the enduring puzzles of China that nobody has been able to resolve, Because all the material that is Pre-Qin is lost in the "Burning of books and burying of scholars" by Qin Shi huang. All records before his rule , all books, and all languages and scripts before him were destroyed. Completely. The only doctrine that survived was "LEGALISM". So, because we have no info at all regarding their Pre-Qin history beliefs and Philosophies, save for scattered archaeological evidence but none That is documented. This gap of information makes it very difficult to trace the Sociological evolution of Chinese society and what factors influenced it. My guess is the loss of all that guiding philosophy along with Qin Shi huang's narcissistic grandeur and obsession with "Unification" caught on widely but the moderation influence provided by Pre-Qin beliefs and philosophies was lost. Which caused an escalating cycle of Self-perpetuating vicious cycle of bloody warfare. Sort of Like a Perpetual Motion Machine of Violence with no moderating attenuation provided, because the framework of Beliefs and Philosophies ( and the people who studied them and taught them) that provided that moderation were lost.

https://t.co/ReKq1cVyAL


Chancellor Li Si Said: "I, your servant, propose that all historians' records other than those of Qin's be burned. With the exception of the academics whose duty includes possessing books, if anyone under heaven has copies of the Shi Jing [Classic of Poetry], the Shujing [Classic of History], or the writings of the hundred schools of philosophy, they shall deliver them (the books) to the governor or the commandant for burning. Anyone who dares to discuss the Shi Jing or the Classic of History shall be publicly executed. Anyone who uses history to criticize the present shall have his family executed. Any official who sees the violations but fails to report them is equally guilty. Anyone who has failed to burn the books after thirty days of this announcement shall be subjected to tattooing and be sent to build the Great Wall. The books that have exemption are those on medicine, divination, agriculture, and forestry. Those who have interest in laws shall instead study from officials."[a]
—Shiji Chapter 6. "The Basic Annals of the First Emperor of Qin" thirty-fourth year (213 BC)

Which proves just how ruthlessly all info was purged. Its kind of tragic actually.

Another quote

Three categories of books were viewed by Li Si to be most dangerous politically. These were poetry (particularly the Shi Jing), history (Shujing and especially historical records of other states than Qin), and philosophy. The ancient collection of poetry and historical records contained many stories concerning the ancient virtuous rulers. Li Si believed that if the people were to read these works they were likely to invoke the past and become dissatisfied with the present. The reason for opposing various schools of philosophy was that they advocated political ideas often incompatible with the totalitarian regime

Which proves how paranoid Qin Shi huang was about somebody knowing about an emperor who was better than him and questioning him. Tell me. Do you see any difference between what the CPC is doing now, and what Qin Shi huang did almost 2000 years ago.? Mao's "Cultural revolution" and "Great leap Forward" resulting in death of intellectuals and burning of books, heirlooms, monks and temples doesn't seem so unusual or "revolutionary" now does it? He was just a narcissist with delusions of grandeur following another narcissist with delusions of grandeur from 2200 years ago. History does seem to recur itself doesn't it?

[shiv]

the Han core of Beijing and Shanghai is "fair game" to an overwhelming Indian nuclear response, as spelt out very clearly in our nuclear doctrine. Hence, the constant squealing about the Agni V test - they know they can no longer win a war with India by simply nuking India - they would have nothing left at the end of it either, and that would spell doom for "The Middle Kingdom", because there won't be a kingdom left worth its name to stand amongst the world's elite with its head held high and its dignity/face intact.

The Han core must be kept under threat . The Emperor will be personally hurt and we will help the Chinese along the path to a new and murderous revolution.

[Suraj]

Qin Shi Huang was the prototype of paranoid Chinese despot, the last of which was Mao, though Eleven is showing budding abilities too. He died while on an expedition to find the 'elixir of everlasting life', and his quack, err Imperial Physician, prescribed him mercury to drink. He ruled from 220BC to 210BC as the first emperor of the founding Qin Dynasty. The interesting thing is that his mausoleum had been under construction between 246BC and 208BC. So he had basically plotted his grand resting place from which he expected to wake up and continue ruling, 25 years before he even got done with winning the bloody war of the Warring States Period.

[Atmavik]

Not very boastful here.

After #China's ban on Muslim names like 'Muhammad', this Chinese Deputy Chief of Mission at Chinese Embassy Pakistan deleted the Muslim part

https://twitter.com/Shahid_Qazi1/status ... 6877749248

@Q for the Haram Thread Maulaners. is int this Blasphemy?

[Singha]

A family member who works in a manufacturing mnc with ops in india usa and china with hq in usa casually remarked that of late the cheen unit had become very defiant and doing whatever they wanted and ignoring plans drafted in hq...people are at wits end how to control them politely per traditional norms.

So i asked..what is their share of current topline?
Ans... 30% and growing

I said the defiance is going to increase until...all the i.p. and market insights is done stealing and the big boys move enmasse to a local competitor....across the city

[shiv]

All said and done it appears that Chinese contempt, criticism and boorish behaviour towards Indians is their way of saying " We are greater than you and will say anything we like and you can do nothing about it"

For a minute imagine that you are in China and someone treats you like this.

You have two choices. One is to bow your head and agree. the other is to deny and defy. The latter will earn you punishment.

But we are not in China - and these interactions are on the internet and in the media. So the question of being punished does not exist. Unfortunately I see Indians fall into three groups in reaction to Chinese arrogance and boastfulness
1. The people who agree that China is great, bow their head on the internet and lecture other Indians not to act cocky but learn from the Chinese. Unfortunately this only reinforces the reaction that the Chines want. Too much pseudo-dharma and truthfullness results in this travesty IMO

2. A second group tend to get all logical and say good things about India and bad things about China and expect reasonableness from the Chinese. Turns out they are wrong. No reasonableness can be expected. None will be given

3. That leaves only one possible reaction to a boastful Chinese - treat him with contempt and smear him with all the cultural, dietary and physical insults possible. Words like slanteye, shit eater, etc should be normal terms of endearment to get a conversation level. This appears to be the only way - but it suffers from the drawback that groups 1 and 2 of Indians will get their chaddis in a massive twist. But they can be made to learn no?

[Singha]

huntington was wrong about many things but right on one - the sino-islamic block is a natural alliance and it has formed up. their core memes are in sync so a natural fit.

[manju]

Duplicated- deleted self

[manju]

Qin Shi Huang was the prototype of paranoid Chinese despot, the last of which was Mao, though Eleven is showing budding abilities too. He died while on an expedition to find the 'elixir of everlasting life', and his quack, err Imperial Physician, prescribed him mercury to drink. He ruled from 220BC to 210BC as the first emperor of the founding Qin Dynasty. The interesting thing is that his mausoleum had been under construction between 246BC and 208BC. So he had basically plotted his grand resting place from which he expected to wake up and continue ruling, 25 years before he even got done with winning the bloody war of the Warring States Period.

Contrast this with Chandra Gupta Maurya who kicked the Greeks out of india and then just at the age of 40 y renounced his throne and came down to shravanabelagola and died as a monk (starving to death voluntarily)

Renunciation VS narcissism

[manju]

All said and done it appears that Chinese contempt, criticism and boorish behaviour towards Indians is their way of saying " We are greater than you and will say anything we like and you can do nothing about it"

For a minute imagine that you are in China and someone treats you like this.

You have two choices. One is to bow your head and agree. the other is to deny and defy. The latter will earn you punishment.

But we are not in China - and these interactions are on the internet and in the media. So the question of being punished does not exist. Unfortunately I see Indians fall into three groups in reaction to Chinese arrogance and boastfulness
1. The people who agree that China is great, bow their head on the internet and lecture other Indians not to act cocky but learn from the Chinese. Unfortunately this only reinforces the reaction that the Chines want. Too much pseudo-dharma and truthfullness results in this travesty IMO

2. A second group tend to get all logical and say good things about India and bad things about China and expect reasonableness from the Chinese. Turns out they are wrong. No reasonableness can be expected. None will be given

3. That leaves only one possible reaction to a boastful Chinese - treat him with contempt and smear him with all the cultural, dietary and physical insults possible. Words like slanteye, shit eater, etc should be normal terms of endearment to get a conversation level. This appears to be the only way - but it suffers from the drawback that groups 1 and 2 of Indians will get their chaddis in a massive twist. But they can be made to learn no?

Seems like deja vu!!

But only this time we are dealing with the taller than mountain friends instead of the pakis

If I am not mistaken We transitioned to the current stage where we call pakis the shit they are after going in circles anal lysing paki piskology

[chola]

From what I know and what I've read, after the Japanese, it is the Chinese who are most fearful of "losing face" in any situation, regardless of how they might behave at the high table of nations such as the WTO, because they always keep a clear undercurrent going with the other members that China is foremost in terms of economic and military capability, and it is the de-facto leader. Whether that be at the WTO, BRICS, SCO whatever - it is the Chinese who are supposed to be considered the foremost power at the table.

How do you keep an "undercurrent" of superiority when you are groveling like dogs for every advantage, no every piece of WELFARE, that is supposed to help the poorest of the poor? We need to stop attributing mystical powers to chinis like the fictional Fu Manchu.

I've been involved with negotiations with clients pursuing tie-ups with Cheen that were between major firms on both sides. The Amreeki side were invariably completely floored by the undignified insistence for transfers and advantages to be given to their opposing side: "We are poor. We are underdeveloped. Please give is this and that. And the other thing because we are backwards."
My colleagues said the same in their experience. And this goes all the way to talks between national governments at the WTO. This groveling for every little piece of advantage is universal for PRC. Cheat, steal and lie for the smallest of an advantage. Face my arse.

But that is not to say there is nothing in the background because the reality of the consumption and market numbers are so enormous that most MNCs give into the chini tactics and hand them part of the family jewels. How do you think they've advanced so quickly? (The MNCs grab their pound of flesh later by marking things up. Everything from Iphones to Buicks to baby formula is far more expensive in China than the west but the chinis still lap them up.)

Cheat, lie and steal. Copy, spy or bribe for anything worth manufacturing for a market share or niche, no matter how seemingly insignificant. We hear of major chini textile firms stealing African looming patterns to grab some niche markets in the west. Not an ounce of dignity or face but admirable in a hardnosed business sense.

I say given a choice between continuous warfare over some empty plots at the edge of their empire or a peace so they can continue making money, such people would chose the latter. Very different from the Japanese who might resort to Kamikaze.

[chola]

3. That leaves only one possible reaction to a boastful Chinese - treat him with contempt and smear him with all the cultural, dietary and physical insults possible. Words like slanteye, shit eater, etc should be normal terms of endearment to get a conversation level. This appears to be the only way - but it suffers from the drawback that groups 1 and 2 of Indians will get their chaddis in a massive twist. But they can be made to learn no?

Seriously, Shiv-ji. All of that psych-analyzing and we come down to calling them names as an answer?

We do that already! How many times have we called Liu and David names over the past decade and a half? Did that change their tactics? Or did that enbolden them? Liu acts exactly like racist whites trolling black and American minority forums. The angry and racial responses make him feel superior in the same way a white racist feeds off the angry comments of minorities.

Banning is the best solution in both cases.

But the best way to deal with chini arrogance is the most obvious one but which no one had mentioned so far. Way better than calling them names as funny as that may be.

And that is to ignore them completely. Do not have any thread that mention China in its title. Do not give them prominence of place in our forum. Treat them with disdain like the rich deal with paupers, deny that they even exists in our world.

[Singha]

[Singha]

[Singha]

Valiant workers marching to punish the yindu

[Suraj]

Qin Shi Huang was the prototype of paranoid Chinese despot, the last of which was Mao, though Eleven is showing budding abilities too. He died while on an expedition to find the 'elixir of everlasting life', and his quack, err Imperial Physician, prescribed him mercury to drink. He ruled from 220BC to 210BC as the first emperor of the founding Qin Dynasty. The interesting thing is that his mausoleum had been under construction between 246BC and 208BC. So he had basically plotted his grand resting place from which he expected to wake up and continue ruling, 25 years before he even got done with winning the bloody war of the Warring States Period.

Contrast this with Chandra Gupta Maurya who kicked the Greeks out of india and then just at the age of 40 y renounced his throne and came down to shravanabelagola and died as a monk (starving to death voluntarily)

Renunciation VS narcissism

No please, thats totally not the point of this thread. Don't go with that line of thinking. This thread is not an attempt to show 'Chinese are primitive barbarian and we are civilized enlightened. Yay us!'

The purpose of this thread is to get Indians to understand what drives Chinese to behave like they do. To understand, given a situation of interaction, how will they likely behave . We need to stop thinking in terms of guidelines *we* apply, and learn to think how they think in such a situation .

Posts like the above are a demonstration of judging them by our value systems . By their value system ''Chandragupta Maurya was a fool who instead of building an even larger empire, forgot his job, ran around naked, forgot to eat and died'. So, judging them according to our value system is not the point .

Instead , understanding them to this extent should let us begin to better interpret how they have behaved so far, and more critically, guess better as to their future motives and actions.

[manju]

Contrast this with Chandra Gupta Maurya who kicked the Greeks out of india and then just at the age of 40 y renounced his throne and came down to shravanabelagola and died as a monk (starving to death voluntarily)

Renunciation VS narcissism

No please, thats totally not the point of this thread. Don't go with that line of thinking. This thread is not an attempt to show 'Chinese are primitive barbarian and we are civilized enlightened. Yay us!'

The purpose of this thread is to get Indians to understand what drives Chinese to behave like they do. To understand, given a situation of interaction, how will they likely behave . We need to stop thinking in terms of guidelines *we* apply, and learn to think how they think in such a situation .

Posts like the above are a demonstration of judging them by our value systems . By their value system ''Chandragupta Maurya was a fool who instead of building an even larger empire, forgot his job, ran around naked, forgot to eat and died'. So, judging them according to our value system is not the point .

Instead , understanding them to this extent should let us begin to better interpret how they have behaved so far, and more critically, guess better as to their future motives and actions.

Agree 100%

[anupmisra]

Here's another lie the chinis have been promoting and boasting over the past 70 years.

China Celebrates 70th Anniversary of Big, Fat Li - "its victory in the Chinese People's War of Resistance Against Japanese Aggression"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8hnk0mxaAU

[RCase]

The Cultural Revolution. Narrated by a Chinese. This can give us a better understanding of the thought process of the children of CR. There are lots of parallels with Malsi!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGpmVs0_Dbc

[Suraj]

The most revealing thing about the CR to me is not Mao's ideas themselves. Any idiot can come up with such ideas. What's really revealing is the way in which Chinese themselves screwed each other over so badly during that time, without significant coercion. Or as Facquhar put it 2 pages ago "without direct orders, were so cruel to each other".

There simply was no societal moderating influence reminding people 'what the cluck are you guys thinking ??' And despite not one but two acts of stupidity or deviousness by Mao in the preceding decade, no one had any trouble swallowing his BS a third time around in the CR.

Outsiders look at Chinese and their industriousness and thing 'CPC can tell them to take over the world and they will do so diligently'. But in reality, they are phenomenally inward looking in their acts of violence. The kind of records they wrack up in death tolls reminds me of this video.

[shiv]

A ve-ry interesting blog by a white male expat in China responding to blog posts about expat white men in China by white women

A lot of information about why expat men like to f*ck Chinese women - what's in for them. Why the women are as they are and some information and statistics about China

http://chinabounder.blogspot.in/

[chola]

On Wall Street, one of the most coveted overseas posting is China. A booming economy where an ambitious gora corporate warrior can make his bones is only one of the attractions. lol

A young gora, still an intern, told me that the moment he landed there he felt he was in paradise. "Fvcking hot girls everywhere" that he KNEW were attracted to him. I asked how he was so certain and he said "I don't know but it could be just the vibes they give off from their bodies. But you have to feel it to understand." Then I ask him, "Do you have to be white to feel this?" He said "Probably."

Their "bodies" is a common term you hear from gora chini trade veterans. Seemingly in constant comparison to their own wimmen. Her slim body this, her flat stomach that. It seems hex is everywhere around them. Goddam, I thought the white man really do have a heaven on earth set aside for him.

In all my years of dating and being married to my chini-American SHQ, I never once had to fend off any hostilities from a chini male but I was on constant guard and in constant combat against fvcking goras.

Which made me think of two things when analyzing geo-politics.

One, it is easy as hell to set chini-baited honey traps for gora politicians, military officers, MNC managers and researchers for whatever information and design Beijing desires. It would be dam surprise if they didn't have the plans to the F-35 or a switch that Cisco makes.

Two, chini male culture is exceptionally beta. If you cannot get your dander up to fight a horde of white men fvcking your women with a complete sense of entitlement then I doubt you'll be able to get it up over some oxygen-deprived rocks next to India.

[Deans]

John Keay's excellent though very detailed History of China provides some interesting insights.
The Chinese script has been almost unchanged since the beginning of their recorded history - something written in say 1000 BC has about 50%
similarity with their current script. Coupled with their mania for recording everything their emperor did, it gives the Chinese an excellent understanding of their history (and the ability to re-interpret it) compared to Indian history.
The Chinese view is that they have pretty much always had the biggest empire in History - after all, the Emperor was `master of everything on heaven and earth'. The Mongols and Korean have been co-opted into the current Chinese narrative as being Chinese.

Even when the Chinese world domination story was not true e.g. the Roman empire at its peak was bigger, the rival empires did not last, whereas
the Chinese world dominance (as the chinese interpret it) has been a story across thousands of years. The Chinese humiliation at the hands of the West and the Japanese are short term aberrations. The communist party (supposedly) rid China of those humiliations and has now set up China to take its rightful place as a world leader, with Eleven as master of all on earth, if not heaven.

[ramana]

John Keay's excellent though very detailed History of China provides some interesting insights.
The Chinese script has been almost unchanged since the beginning of their recorded history - something written in say 1000 BC has about 50%
similarity with their current script. Coupled with their mania for recording everything their emperor did, it gives the Chinese an excellent understanding of their history (and the ability to re-interpret it) compared to Indian history.
The Chinese view is that they have pretty much always had the biggest empire in History - after all, the Emperor was `master of everything on heaven and earth'. The Mongols and Korean have been co-opted into the current Chinese narrative as being Chinese.

Even when the Chinese world domination story was not true e.g. the Roman empire at its peak was bigger, the rival empires did not last, whereas
the Chinese world dominance (as the chinese interpret it) has been a story across thousands of years. The Chinese humiliation at the hands of the West and the Japanese are short term aberrations. The communist party (supposedly) rid China of those humiliations and has now set up China to take its rightful place as a world leader, with Eleven as master of all on earth, if not heaven.

It would be a fact check to post the maps of the various dynasties that ruled China. I submit current China is the successor state to the Mongolian dynasty.

If China loses Tibet it will break up into the three states of the warring period which is its natural stable state.

[Atmavik]

It would be a fact check to post the maps of the various dynasties that ruled China. I submit current China is the successor state to the Mongolian dynasty.

If China loses Tibet it will break up into the three states of the warring period which is its natural stable state.

Ramana Garu,

did you mean the three kingdoms period?

[Suraj]

Tibet never was under Chinese suzerainty until the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911), which was founded by Manchu invaders.
Parts of Xinjiang first came under their suzerainty in the Tang Dynasty (618-907) era.
Mongolia came under a Chinese empire the other way around - when the Mongols devastated the Song Dynasty (960-1271) and established the Yuan Dynasty (1271-1368).
What happened between 907 and 960 ? Well after Tang, the second of their three most celebrated dynasties (the others being Han and Ming) the country fell apart as the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period.

Also, Tibet was never a part of Qing Dynasty as a formal province. It was classified as an outer protectorate. This map shows things better. Yellow was China proper of the Qing Empire. Light yellow was protectorates. Orange was the collection of places that paid tribute to Qing at various times. Nepal , Bhutan and Ahom states were all among them. More on this, but shiv's shiver or die laughing thread is a better place for it.

[Prem]

[KLNMurthy]

Shiv-ji, can you ask our informative lurker, on why Chinese culture is so dog-eat-dog ? Chinese society evolved in similar fashion as Indian/Mesopotamian/Egyptian : farming society, based on food surprlus. Ie, its a 'land of plenty'. So why do we see such barbarism from such society ? Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Indians, Greeks, etc. were not so barbarous towards one another and that makes sense, given that basic necessities were plentiful in these lands.

HayaGreevaPutra's response

About SriJoy ji's question. This is one of the enduring puzzles of China that nobody has been able to resolve, Because all the material that is Pre-Qin is lost in the "Burning of books and burying of scholars" by Qin Shi huang. All records before his rule , all books, and all languages and scripts before him were destroyed. Completely. The only doctrine that survived was "LEGALISM". So, because we have no info at all regarding their Pre-Qin history beliefs and Philosophies, save for scattered archaeological evidence but none That is documented. This gap of information makes it very difficult to trace the Sociological evolution of Chinese society and what factors influenced it. My guess is the loss of all that guiding philosophy along with Qin Shi huang's narcissistic grandeur and obsession with "Unification" caught on widely but the moderation influence provided by Pre-Qin beliefs and philosophies was lost. Which caused an escalating cycle of Self-perpetuating vicious cycle of bloody warfare. Sort of Like a Perpetual Motion Machine of Violence with no moderating attenuation provided, because the framework of Beliefs and Philosophies ( and the people who studied them and taught them) that provided that moderation were lost.

What an incredibly fascinating and informative thread. Thanks to all the contributors for sharing their knowledge and insights.

One thought I have is about the role of writing and script versus oral memory in making Chinese culture different. Chinese culture is unique in having a pictographic alphabet instead of an alphabet that is phonetic, the latter being the case for all the cultures besides the Chinese. So it raises two questions? (1) to what extent was Chinese knowledge transmission dependent on written sources versus oral memory? and (2) Did the Chinese specialize in oral memory skills anywhere to the level of the Indians, for example?

To make this concrete, imagine some rakshasa emperor of India like Hiranyakasipu trying to make himself into the one source of Everything, and destroying every source of knowledge of other rulers, like Rama, Sibi, or the ruler and his queen in Silappadikkaaram (who kill themselves when they realize they have committed an injustice), and so on. Would it have been possible for him to do it? We know Hiranyakasipu tried and failed in erasing all knowledge of Vishnu; he couldn't even prevent his son Prahlada from becoming a devotee. Maybe the reason was that his task wasn't as simple as burning every book that was about Vishnu; since all the knowledge about Vishnu resided in the heads of the common people in the form of stories and poems and songs, who could not be monitored 24/7, and of course it wouldn't make sense to kill off all the people.

I hope the gurus on this thread can shed some light on this aspect. If indeed there is a link between the technology and tools of Chinese knowledge transmission and their culture at large, it might be a dramatic illustration of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (which incidentally was--IIRC--developed at the Theosphical Society in Adayaru, Chennai).

[Suraj]

Chinese have a predominantly written record of history, and not oral transmission. This is because imperial history was a very important aspect of imperial rule, and as posted earlier, every new dynasty sought to portray themselves as heroes or avengers. True story: when the Ming Dynasty was overrun by the Manchus who created the Qing Dynasty in 1644, the last Ming ruler, the Chongzhen Emperor ran off into the garden and hung himself from a well known tree there. The Qing turned around to legitimize their rule by asserting that they were 'avenging the emperor' . There's an explicit process of acquiring and asserting the Mandate of Heaven, by each dynasty. This MoH thing is a rugby ball that the Chinese have repeatedly fought incredibly gory wars to gain the power to assert.

Coming back to written vs oral Chinese, the Chinese script is uniform across the country (almost), but pronunciation is widely divergent unless you establish the use of a single dialect . You can give a sentence in Chinese to a dozen people to read, and they'll say the same thing , but in a dozen different sounding ways. The same words when read, are phonetically expressed differently in various dialects. The 'standard Chinese' (Putonghua) is just Beijing dialect, enforced on everyone. There still exists several vibrant local dialects, most notably Cantonese, and Shanghainese.

So the lack of oral uniformity is a barrier to oral transmission. Written records were therefore the predominant way. However, written Chinese is quite impenetrable , especially traditional characters. PRC promulgated a policy of character simplification soon after its founding, since it's quite difficult to write traditional Chinese characters. The complexity also hampered PRC literacy campaigns. A second round of simplification was planned in the late 1970s, but was abandoned.

[Rudradev]

Oral history works for culture, religion, etc. Not for history. This is because, history is a 'social endeavour', not a personal one. My life is quite literally, unaffected by whether i know of Ashoka/Virakamaditya or not.
'

Aiyyo.

"History" is overrated. In India we have itihasa (literally, "it happened here"). It is both a personal and a social endeavour, because dharmic civilization doesn't make this categorical distinction in a lot of ways that the normative restrictions of Western "civilization" compel it to. We aren't a history-centric culture in the sense of "history" that the West relies on to promulgate the authority of its institutions.

"Itihasa" affords the capacity for endless contextual reinterpretation of historical narrative without changing its essence... something the "West" has only discovered through postmodernism, which itself is a barely disguised appropriation from our own knowledge systems. Western conservatives are terrified of reinterpretation or "revisionism" as they call it, because they are neurotically obsessed with the idea that adhering absolutely to one single, unalterable, "authoritative" historical narrative is crucial to maintaining the very core of their identity.

We know better. Just as the polymerases that replicate genetic material allow themselves the making of "errors", and chromosomes themselves afford the capacity for recombination, all the while preserving the essential contours, attributes, and viability of that which is being reproduced... our mechanisms of transmitting knowledge (particularly via oral transmission) are designed to allow for the possible evolution of ideas in response to a changing temporal context. The West clings white-knuckled to the corpse of Abraham for its self definition. You walk hand in hand with your living father and mother, and some day your living son or daughter walk hand in hand with you; and always the eddies of temporary change coexist with the undercurrent of perennial continuity.

It scarcely matters that the Bhils, the Indonesians, the Andhras, the Manipuris, the Gujaratis all weave their folklore into local retellings of the Ramayana or Mahabharata, so that there is no authoritative, single, History-with-a-capital-H version of these epic narratives. We do not lean on our itihasa to define us; rather, we trust ourselves to preserve and enrich our identity by continuing to define and redefine our itihasa as times change.

Again, I'd recommend Rajiv Malhotra, Vamsee Juluri, S.N. Balagangadhara, and Sanjeev Sanyal for starters. I would also look at the Out of India thread at BRF (the current one and its previous avatar) for more discussion on this subject.

For that matter, I'd suggest taking any further discussion of Indian traditions to some other thread and leave this one for discussions focused on China.

[Agnimitra]

If indeed there is a link between the technology and tools of Chinese knowledge transmission and their culture at large, it might be a dramatic illustration of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (which incidentally was--IIRC--developed at the Theosphical Society in Adayaru, Chennai).

To add to what Suraj said:

Chinese imperium used a standardized ideographic writing system to "unify" communication. So at that time, they destroyed all alternative forms of writing, and mass book burnings took place to ensure this. Scholars in different component kingdoms were slaughtered if they tried to preserve the old books. In place of diverse written standards, one pan-Chinese writing system was put into place. However, diverse spoken languages continue to exist, because of the nature of this writing system. The same "character" could be pronounced "house" in one tongue and "ghar" on another. The idea was conveyed uniformly, but the languages differed. It is to be noted that these were not just "dialects", but distinct languages across China. There are various estimates, but recently I spoke with a Chinese scholar and she told me there are/were as many as 75 distinct, mutually unintelligible languages across China. All these were unified via writing system. Thus, an imperial decree could be transmitted across linguistic boundaries.

The complex nature of the writing system also meant that full literacy was limited to a thin aristocratic class only. Thus, for millennia, the average Chinese has been even more conditioned to "knowledge" being limited to an exclusive class, with just functional literacy permeating the masses. [Whereas in India, literacy in the regional languages - not Sanskrit - was far more widespread through various vocational guilds.]

This quasi-bicameral linguistic ecology - many spoken languages, unified by an ideographic writing system - persisted for a long time and worked well to unify and even subsume various cultures into a "Chinese" culture. They tried to subsume other peripheral cultures (like Korean, etc) via their script. So important is the script to Chinese civilizational identity, that in modern times, when there was a debate under the Commies about whether that script was practicable, a nationalist lobby prevailed and kept the script with a simplification, rather than switch to the other alternative - Romanized Pinyin - and then undertook the most massive literacy campaign in history to make the masses fully literate in this script.

There was always some effort to also introduce a uniform spoken language - usually choosing the language around capital regions. e.g., Confucius is supposed to have narrated using a language called Ya Yan as a standard. But it never really worked.

Then, with the arrival of telecommunications, that quasi-bicameral linguistic ecology has been destroyed - because now they have not only standardized script, but also spoken language - with the Beijing language becoming national language, and all other languages left to die. It is a massive death of dozens of distinct languages. Nevertheless, Chinese identity rests heavily on language and script, to distinguish it from the Other.

[anupmisra]

Chinese behaving badly (in Australia)

Chinese diamond talks delegates 'hijack mic' in Taiwan protest

Australia was hosting a Kimberly Process conference on controlling conflict diamonds in Perth on Monday. But the Chinese group were angered by the presence of a Taiwanese delegation, and noisily interrupted the official opening ceremony.

China .. insists that other countries cannot have diplomatic relations with both China and Taiwan, so few countries recognise the island's independence.

the Chinese group "hijacked the microphone" during a traditional Aboriginal welcoming ceremony, as a senior official was introducing Foreign Minister Julie Bishop.They demanded to know whether the Taiwan group - Rough Diamond Trading Entity of Chinese Taipei - had been officially invited.

A discussion session later in the morning was also abandoned because of continual interruptions by officials from African countries in support of China's position.

"The chair had to withdraw the invitation to the Taiwanese following objections from China and several other delegations to the former's presence during the opening session, in order to enable the meeting to continue,"

A spokesman for the Chinese consulate in Perth told the Sydney Morning Herald: "The head of the Chinese delegation expressed high respect for the traditional owners of the land."

Money!!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-39777190