Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby eklavya » 26 May 2018 01:03

^^^^
If you run a CAD, you need someone else’s money to pay for it. Investment income is also part of the current account. Investment income decline is also a issue for the UK CAD.

UK balances its CAD by debt and equity investment from foreigners flowing into UK assets. They are importing capital.

Remittances do indeed fund India’s CAD.

And the biggest beneficiary of skilled India labour in the UK is the UK.

Where your assertions are troublesome is that India should look to finance its CAD through remittances, even if it means exporting our best minds. This is like admitting defeat that we cannot employ them productively in India.

It would be far far far better if our best minds were employed in India and able to export goods and services from India to the rest of the world. Like a TCS or a Infosys. Our best minds employed productively in India should be creating a far greater surplus for India than the share of their savings they send home.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby eklavya » 26 May 2018 01:15

In case anyone was wondering why the UK Government is working against skilled Indian migration, please choose one of the following options:

a) Theresa May is evil
b) Theresa May is stupid
c) Theresa May is racist
d) All of the above

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 26 May 2018 01:19

Suraj wrote:
ashish raval wrote:I dont see why we can be friends with other colonists like Japan, france, germans and spain but not with britain all based on historical baggage. Afterall business is business, betterment of people on fastest possible way should be our aim and to us, it is a big export market nothing else. Once India achieve self sufficiency in technology and production, we can play ball like chinese do.

You are completely wrong here. It is *you* who is asserting historical baggage in favor of UK ties (English language, culture, ties, food yadda yadda). I am the one who's talking business and business alone. You can replace UK with Burkina Faso, and the argument is exactly the same in my case.

When you sit at a table and you know the other guy is busy, stressed out, internally embattled, running a minority government, trying to get time bound deals in place with outsiders, you don't do them a favour. You don't offer freebies. You sit at the table, and assert your most maximalist demands, and offering nothing. You force the concessions out of them first, and give them as little in return as you can for it.

There's nothing personal here. You think this is an act of vengeful pique. No, this is simply how business is done, when one party senses the other has a weak hand and is in a rush. This is why India pays gold plated prices for defence imports in a crunch, too. The party with lesser negotiating space gets scrood. That is entirely business.

No offense, but successive Indian governments on both sides of the political spectrum have demonstrated identical foreign policies wrt UK. Their position matters more than any amount of hot air about the benefits of UK ties that you offer. UK ties don't improve because UK has nothing to bend over and hand us. It's that simple.


I don't represent UK viewpoint and neither am UKfan, I only look at fact and argue on basis of facts. The weakness of the argument comes from the fact that you replace UK with Burkina Faso and business outcome remains same. Most businesses thankfully don't think that way more practical about it. Assumption of game theory does not work quiet the same way and EU found that out cruelly on the day of Brexit. Britain is in no rush and the worst case effect of trading under WTO is 2 percent to businesses which they will easily be given back in form of rebate by government. Without giving deal to Britain they are creating a Singapore on its doorstep which will suck all the business headquarters in London.

I clearly think we should push for businesses ease and utilise deep market to raise funds and use it to make Indian companies presence felt. I don't see anyone talking about single Indian brand or product except Yoga, Bollywood or backoffice work by TCS. The only other know brand is TATA which is by acquiring jaguar and making company turnaround.

I believe you may know the fact that in the globalised world we are 5 clicks away from creating a company in Mauritius or singapore and get all the benefits as a business by having a telephone connection and guy routing phone to somewhere else, so really free trade is just a mask what you really create is perception of being a partner between businesses for long term prosperity of each nation so give and take should be zero sum game in the end.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 26 May 2018 01:24

eklavya wrote:^^^^

And the biggest beneficiary of skilled India labour in the UK is the UK.

The larger picture of the UK's financial situation is irrelevant to the conversation. Indo-UK bilateral discussions have been characterized by two primary things:
* UK wants more access to India for its goods and capital
* India wants more access to UK for its goods and labour.

It does not matter in a nation's economic calculus if the 'biggest gainer' is someone else . The only pertinent question is whether there's a net economic gain in our own actions.

The biggest gainer from China's export machine could be argued as the rest of the world - the Chinese only gain a fraction of the profit margin on an iPhone for example. The Chinese got enormous amounts of pollution, destruction of their prior social fabric due to 100s of millions of migrant labour living in pathetic conditions cranking out goods, etc etc. And yet, they're rich, because their net gains from these actions exceed the costs.

The cost of training Indian labour for export doesn't come anywhere close to our annual gains from exporting labour. Remittances earned us $2 billion in 1990-91. We now do anywhere from $65-75 billion a year. China are the world's largest exporter of goods by value. We are the world's largest exporter of labour by value.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 26 May 2018 01:29

chetak wrote:
rsingh wrote:How degrading. We are asking some country to make it easier for our people to migrate to that country. So we do not need educated educated and qualified people in India? Do we want UK to grant even easier access for our criminals? Ashamed of our babus and their tark-vitark. And nobody is this insult on India? Shame.


The report may be misguided.

The GoI is justifiably asking for better access for Indians to study and work in the UK and the GoI never ever said that they wanted easier migration to the UK for Indians.

The UK is asking for a lot from India in terms of trade, like easier and also preferential market access, based solely on the commonwealth connection and as usual the brits will not give us anything in return. They see our wealth as common to them, a master and slave relationship.

It is the same cunning, tried and tested, east India company gambit all over again but they forgot that a bania Gujarati is now in charge.


This is incorrect. I no longer see master slave attitude mainly because there are plenty of places where Indians are actually masters here. Perception about India has changed radically in last few years because of Indian smartness and ability of working hard and striving to move upwards.

I believe better access to Indian students is seriously being thought about and we shall something coming. Justifiably UK is waiting on how Brexit talks proceed and will lay that card accordingly. We can keep our cards closed too but should work in the background on two scenarios a) if UK has Ei market access as before what am I willing to give away and b) Otherwise. Both draft should be kept ready.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 26 May 2018 01:31

ashish raval wrote:Britain is in no rush and the worst case effect of trading under WTO is 2 percent to businesses which they will easily be given back in form of rebate by government. Without giving deal to Britain they are creating a Singapore on its doorstep which will suck all the business headquarters in London.

That's obvious. Why do you think Indo-UK ties are comatose for 2 decades now ?

Your argument about it being in our interest to offer a deal is demonstrably wrong - 3-4 successive Indian and British administrations comprising ALL ideological permutations (Labour - BJP, Labour - Cong, Tories - BJP, Tories - Cong ) prove otherwise.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby eklavya » 26 May 2018 01:37

India gains from the UK on two fronts:

* India runs a trade surplus with the UK (£4bn in 2016)

* India receives significant remittances from the UK ($3.6bn in 2016)

https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustry ... 2017-02-21

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittances_to_India

Closer trading relations with the UK could allow India to increase its trade surplus even further? What can one make cheaper in the UK than in India after all?

So, I’m open minded about a trade treaty (as it may benefit India). Making trade hostage to immigration may be a lose lose situation for India.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 26 May 2018 01:42

What have we gained by not having a deal? Have we done any cost benefit analysis on this? Show me one paper by any Indian academic on this?

$70 billion a year exporting labour (remittances)


False dawn.
If we have managed to keep 10 sachin bansals per year that would have created conglomerates and I would have seen scores of Indian companies in fortune 500 alas there are still not many had I don't see many coming in next decade either 7 versus more than 100 Chinese firms.
The whole argument about exporting labour is ok for short term but what is worrying I'd our inability to keep talent in India or ability to create any conglomerates or company which has worldwide presence in any field except few IT companies. Rather than turning into intellectual powerhouse we are turning into worldwide whitecollar coolies. Show me one company which manufactures drones in India or is attempting to make one!!! This is after producing million engineers per year of which I was one 15 years back..
Last edited by ashish raval on 26 May 2018 01:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 26 May 2018 01:46

Why exactly would UK want a trade treaty that enhances our trade surplus and worsens the CAD they have, that you've already presented copious data about ? :)

The lack of any traction between successive Indian *and* UK governments should be sufficient indicator that neither side sees a win-win situation in enhanced ties. One can run around claiming otherwise, but reality is quite another matter.

The bilateral issues IMHO are entirely the UK's. Trade in goods is largely stable, within existing WTO regime of interaction. UK wants enhanced access for its capital, and we don't intend to budge without enhanced access to labour. We offer FAR better access to foreign capital than they offer to Indian labour - UK for all its CW bhaichara doesn't even offer visa free transit at LHR, something Indians can get at FRA or AMS or any of the Asian hubs.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Lisa » 26 May 2018 01:48

eklavya wrote:
Suraj wrote:
You have 10 doctors. You can employ them at home, each making Rs.1000, or you can send them abroad, where they earn multiples of that and each send Rs.10,000 home . The local economy gains more from exporting that labour even if arguably that sector has a deficit. It's basic economics.
.


I had mistakenly believed that the Indian government spent huge sums of money on training doctors to provide medical care to Indian people. I stand corrected. It’s an export industry.


Eklavyaji,

IMHO, its even more than that. India as a nation makes an investment in education and training until one is a potentially productive individual and then exports that said individual to a foreign land where he will work and enrich that foreign nation not only with his talent and enterprise but also by paying taxes there, so that the foreign nation can improve itself with an asset in whom it has made absolutely NO investment.

Extrapolate this matter further, if you are then denied a right of settlement, in later life you cannot even make a claim on those taxes, eg a state pension that you have contributed for!

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 26 May 2018 01:50

ashish raval wrote:What have we gained by not having a deal? Have we done any cost benefit analysis on this? Show me one paper by any Indian academic on this?
$70 billion a year exporting labour (remittances)

False dawn.

Sure. Total remittances in 18 years between 2000-01 and 2017-18: approx $705 billion in export gains from labour. Tell us about the true dawn. Your coulda-shoulda-woulda argument needs to credibly add up to, let's say 5x of that figure to be really true.

Export of labour is no different from export of goods or capital. They're all part of the aggregate economic levers. Arguing about false dawns is like berating the Chinese in the early 2000s (which is about where we are) for doing little more that fill Walmart shelves with crap.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby chetak » 26 May 2018 01:55

ashish raval wrote:
chetak wrote:
The report may be misguided.

The GoI is justifiably asking for better access for Indians to study and work in the UK and the GoI never ever said that they wanted easier migration to the UK for Indians.

The UK is asking for a lot from India in terms of trade, like easier and also preferential market access, based solely on the commonwealth connection and as usual the brits will not give us anything in return. They see our wealth as common to them, a master and slave relationship.

It is the same cunning, tried and tested, east India company gambit all over again but they forgot that a bania Gujarati is now in charge.


This is incorrect. I no longer see master slave attitude mainly because there are plenty of places where Indians are actually masters here. Perception about India has changed radically in last few years because of Indian smartness and ability of working hard and striving to move upwards.

I believe better access to Indian students is seriously being thought about and we shall something coming. Justifiably UK is waiting on how Brexit talks proceed and will lay that card accordingly. We can keep our cards closed too but should work in the background on two scenarios a) if UK has Ei market access as before what am I willing to give away and b) Otherwise. Both draft should be kept ready.


Master slave as in when the UK deals with India, We are not now and neither we ever the favorites of the brit baboo(n)s nor their foreign office.

This was not meant in a people to people sort of way. But you might try and recall what the reaction and the feeling about India was in the brit media, both print and electronic and even the diplomatic reaction was remarkable when we chose the french rafale over the eurofighter, was it??

Again, the perceptions of India, are dramatically different when dealing with the well educated brits in the UK than when dealing with those on the lower end of the scale.
Last edited by chetak on 26 May 2018 02:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 26 May 2018 01:55

Lisa wrote:Extrapolate this matter further, if you are then denied a right of settlement, in later life you cannot even make a claim on those taxes, eg a state pension that you have contributed for!

That is a very good point, and India wants a totalization agreement with US and UK. It hasn't gotten one from either. Here are the countries with whom it has one:
List of countries with which India has an effective social security agreement
Country Effective date
Belgium 1 September 2009
Germany 1 October 2009 (Limited)
Switzerland 29 January 2011
Denmark 1 May 2011
Luxembourg 1 June 2011
France 1 July 2011
Korea 1 November 2011
Netherlands 1 December 2011
Hungary 1 April 2013
Sweden 1 August 2014
Finland 1 August 2014
Czech Republic 1 September 2014
Norway 1 January 2015
Austria 1 July 2015
Canada (excl. Quebec) 1 August 2015
Australia 1 January 2016
Japan 1 October 2016

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby nachiket » 26 May 2018 01:58

eklavya wrote:India gains from the UK on two fronts:

* India runs a trade surplus with the UK (£4bn in 2016)

* India receives significant remittances from the UK ($3.6bn in 2016)

https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustry ... 2017-02-21

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittances_to_India

Closer trading relations with the UK could allow India to increase its trade surplus even further? What can one make cheaper in the UK than in India after all?

So, I’m open minded about a trade treaty (as it may benefit India). Making trade hostage to immigration may be a lose lose situation for India.

These figures actually illustrate perfectly why a trade deal between UK and India has gone nowhere. The current situation is in India's favour. The UK wants to change that by getting preferential access to India's market which would allow them to reduce that trade deficit. In addition they are also tightening immigration laws which would translate into a reduction in remittances to India as well in the future. And India is supposed to accept that because..history, commonwealth or some such ridiculous reasons.

It makes far more sense for India to maintain the status quo. Like Suraj said, there is no win-win situation here. Better to keep what we have than lose that as well.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby eklavya » 26 May 2018 02:03

Suraj wrote:Why exactly would UK want a trade treaty that enhances our trade surplus and worsens the CAD they have, that you've already presented copious data about ? :)

The lack of any traction between successive Indian *and* UK governments should be sufficient indicator that neither side sees a win-win situation in enhanced ties. One can run around claiming otherwise, but reality is quite another matter.

The bilateral issues IMHO are entirely the UK's. Trade in goods is largely stable, within existing WTO regime of interaction. UK wants enhanced access for its capital, and we don't intend to budge without enhanced access to labour. We offer FAR better access to foreign capital than they offer to Indian labour - UK for all its CW bhaichara doesn't even offer visa free transit at LHR, something Indians can get at FRA or AMS or any of the Asian hubs.


Suraj, by your logic (why exactly .... ) above, since the British run a CAD, they should stop trading with the world and they will become richer? Right? No, wrong! Trade makes us all better off. Enlightened opinion in Britain firmly reached this conclusion in the 19th century with the opposition to the Corn Laws.

Even Trump has had to back off from his trade war with China because he knows that the US will be a net loser (notwithstanding the huge surplus run by the PRC).

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 26 May 2018 02:05

nachiket wrote:These figures actually illustrate perfectly why a trade deal between UK and India has gone nowhere. The current situation is in India's favour. The UK wants to change that by getting preferential access to India's market which would allow them to reduce that trade deficit. In addition they are also tightening immigration laws which would translate into a reduction in remittances to India as well in the future. And India is supposed to accept that because..history, commonwealth or some such ridiculous reasons.

It makes far more sense for India to maintain the status quo. Like Suraj said, there is no win-win situation here. Better to keep what we have than lose that as well.

Exactly. I don't get why people post reference material that contradicts their own argument and they don't even seem to get that.

The status quo suits India. The status quo under WTO regime remains unchanged for us pre or post Brexit. We already have a goods surplus. We already have access to British capital. When someone comes asking for a deal, the smart choice is to make your most maximalist demands.

Those talking about deals need to spell out the specifics of such a deal, in *detail* .

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 26 May 2018 02:10

eklavya wrote:Suraj, by your logic (why exactly .... ) above, since the British run a CAD, they should stop trading with the world and they will become richer? Right? No, wrong! Trade makes us all better off. Enlightened opinion in Britain firmly reached this conclusion in the 19th century with the opposition to the Corn Laws.

Another logical fallacy: "the trade is running a deficit. So end the trade."

My logic claims nothing about ending anything. That is *your* logic interpreting my position.

See nachiket's post above. You and fellow Brit flag waver ashish haven't really provided any argument for why - if there's an obvious win-win involved for both countries, not a single British or Indian government in 20 years has done so. Like I said, it's covered all permutations: Labour - BJP (NDA1), Labour - Cong (UPA1), Tory - Cong (UPA2) , Tory - BJP (NDA2) . Vague insinuations about historical baggage are irrelevant and no one's going to believe you; both countries are run by rational entities seeking to further their own interests.

There is no win-win here in any deal. Reality proves otherwise. India's terms of engagement pre and post Brexit are unchanged.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby eklavya » 26 May 2018 02:20

^^^^
Suraj,

With respect, you asked why the UK should want a trade treaty that worsens their deficit. The economic fallacy in your argument is that a trade deficit makes you poorer. I hope that is clear. If you want to have a civilised discussion on economics, I am happy to engage. Flag waving is not what I came here for. Good night.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 26 May 2018 02:26

eklavya wrote:^^^^
Suraj,

With respect, you asked why the UK should want a trade treaty that worsens their deficit. The economic fallacy in your argument is that a trade deficit makes you poorer. I hope that is clear. If you want to have a civilised discussion on economics, I am happy to engage. Flag waving is not what I came here for. Good night.

There are no terms for a trade deal between the two countries that benefits both parties equally, within the parameters of what both parties are willing to give each other. That is self-evident from the fact that all 4 permutations of political ruling entities have come to the same conclusion - keep the status quo.

The entire basis of your - and ashish raval's - argument is that there *is* a win-win deal possible. That's your claim to prove. Either:
* two sets of governments comprising both sides of the political spectrum of both countries are wrong , or
* you are wrong

Occam's razor: you are wrong.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 26 May 2018 02:36

Suraj wrote:Why exactly would UK want a trade treaty that enhances our trade surplus and worsens the CAD they have, that you've already presented copious data about ? :)

The lack of any traction between successive Indian *and* UK governments should be sufficient indicator that neither side sees a win-win situation in enhanced ties. One can run around claiming otherwise, but reality is quite another matter.

The bilateral issues IMHO are entirely the UK's. Trade in goods is largely stable, within existing WTO regime of interaction. UK wants enhanced access for its capital, and we don't intend to budge without enhanced access to labour. We offer FAR better access to foreign capital than they offer to Indian labour - UK for all its CW bhaichara doesn't even offer visa free transit at LHR, something Indians can get at FRA or AMS or any of the Asian hubs.


I don't know what is there to gain for India in keeping ties subdued but clearly for UK they can stop Indian labour flowing in by stopping Indian graduates recuperate their investment and propping up their own economy by these individuals paying fees and living expenses. Later in the life these individuals go back work in MNC's mostly and return to UK and now with no settlement availability and no security. As far as investment in India is concerned as I say it is 5 clicks away.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby eklavya » 26 May 2018 02:41

^^^^
I have no problem in being wrong. But why don’t you stick to economics?

For nearly 5 decades Indian governments followed the policy of autarky. Were they right? What did it do to our productivity and competitiveness? Policy consistency does not prove that the policy is effective.

Political failure to reach agreement does not prove that there are no gains from trade to be had. And these gains will also be experienced by the party whose deficit increases.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 26 May 2018 02:42

nachiket wrote:
eklavya wrote:India gains from the UK on two fronts:

* India runs a trade surplus with the UK (£4bn in 2016)

* India receives significant remittances from the UK ($3.6bn in 2016)

https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustry ... 2017-02-21

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittances_to_India

Closer trading relations with the UK could allow India to increase its trade surplus even further? What can one make cheaper in the UK than in India after all?

So, I’m open minded about a trade treaty (as it may benefit India). Making trade hostage to immigration may be a lose lose situation for India.

These figures actually illustrate perfectly why a trade deal between UK and India has gone nowhere. The current situation is in India's favour. The UK wants to change that by getting preferential access to India's market which would allow them to reduce that trade deficit. In addition they are also tightening immigration laws which would translate into a reduction in remittances to India as well in the future. And India is supposed to accept that because..history, commonwealth or some such ridiculous reasons.

It makes far more sense for India to maintain the status quo. Like Suraj said, there is no win-win situation here. Better to keep what we have than lose that as well.

What stops UK on enforcing 2 percent transaction tax on outward remittance? WTO? You bet WtO allows upto 10 percent penalty without blinking a eyelid. It is your assumption that UK is seeking reducing trade deficit whereas the reality is just that they are seeking markets even when it is known that India is a cut throat market to make big returns without scalability.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 26 May 2018 02:49

eklavya wrote:^^^^
For nearly 5 decades Indian governments followed the policy of autarky. Were they right? What did it do to our productivity and competitiveness? Policy consistency does not prove that the policy is effective.

Political failure to reach agreement does not prove that there are no gains from trade to be had. And these gains will also be experienced by the party whose deficit increases.

That's a very good point - demonstrating that a single entity can make the wrong choice. As it turned out, they changed directions as they changed.

India-UK ties have been marshalled by both sides of both countries' political regimes, with exactly the same end result - keep the status quo.

The burden of proof for asserting a mistake in a decision that's already been tested by all political permutations, therefore lies upon you.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 26 May 2018 02:50

eklavya wrote:^^^^
I have no problem in being wrong. But why don’t you stick to economics?

For nearly 5 decades Indian governments followed the policy of autarky. Were they right? What did it do to our productivity and competitiveness? Policy consistency does not prove that the policy is effective.

Political failure to reach agreement does not prove that there are no gains from trade to be had. And these gains will also be experienced by the party whose deficit increases.

Ok. Deficit is working in Indian favour does not mean that we keep trade just about the level it is now forever. These deficit can be easily be an illusion the money a secondary supplier is found read for softwares nearshoring is currently buzzword since last year as they now have 500 million English speaking population at their doorstep which produces equally cheap and competent programmers as us and Africans are growing Bhindi to export and Dubai is killing imported Indian wheat to make wheat flour and undercutting Indian exports everywhere. Trading on larger volumes indeed helps India grow much faster than what we are at now. Being democratic peaceful nation our production over capacity will easily find buyers compared to communist China if we have build good trading relations.
Last edited by ashish raval on 26 May 2018 02:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 26 May 2018 02:54

ashish raval wrote:Ok. Deficit is working in Indian favour does not mean that you keep trade just about the level it is now forever. These defect can be easily be an illusion the money a secondary supplier is found read for softwares nearshoring is currently buzzword since last year as they now have 500 million English speaking population at their doorstep which produces equally cheap and competent programmers as us and Africans are growing Bhindi to export and Dubai is killing imported Indian wheat to make wheat flour and undercutting Indian exports everywhere.

More coulda-woulda-shoulda then ? :)

Latest iteration: "hurry up and give the British a deal or the Africans/Dubaiites/Martians will eat our lunch"

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 26 May 2018 02:57

Suraj wrote:
ashish raval wrote:Ok. Deficit is working in Indian favour does not mean that you keep trade just about the level it is now forever. These defect can be easily be an illusion the money a secondary supplier is found read for softwares nearshoring is currently buzzword since last year as they now have 500 million English speaking population at their doorstep which produces equally cheap and competent programmers as us and Africans are growing Bhindi to export and Dubai is killing imported Indian wheat to make wheat flour and undercutting Indian exports everywhere.

More coulda-woulda-shoulda then ? :)

Latest iteration: "hurry up and give the British a deal or the Africans/Dubaiites/Martians will eat our lunch"

They are already if don't believe me just ask Infosys, TCS management and they will tell you how hard it is to get business out now compared to just 5 years back. It is only going to get worse as world population rises and everyone knows how to make coffee out of beans.

Listen, no need for sarcasm here!! I care hoot about India not giving any deal to Britain now or in 20 years. All I am doing is to not have negative perception of things that does not merit. None of these posts are read by anyone in either pm modi's or pm Mays office so it is a pointless exercise in a way.
Last edited by ashish raval on 26 May 2018 03:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 26 May 2018 03:00

ashish raval wrote:They are already if don't believe me just ask Infosys, TCS management and they will tell you how hard it is to get business out now compared to just 5 years back. It is only going to get worse as world population rises and everyone knows how to make coffee out of beans.

Sounds good. So it's been concluded that we are completely scrood and we should hand over everything to UK by, when ? Tomorrow morning ?

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby eklavya » 26 May 2018 03:04

Suraj wrote:
The burden of proof for asserting a mistake in a decision that's already been tested by all political permutations, therefore lies upon you.


All political permutations failing to make progress proves that there is no progress to be made? That is a logical, political and economic fallacy. Particularly if you know any politicians. :)

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 26 May 2018 03:08

Suraj wrote:
ashish raval wrote:They are already if don't believe me just ask Infosys, TCS management and they will tell you how hard it is to get business out now compared to just 5 years back. It is only going to get worse as world population rises and everyone knows how to make coffee out of beans.

Sounds good. So it's been concluded that we are completely scrood and we should hand over everything to UK by, when ? Tomorrow morning ?

Well no!! But a decade from now? May be ...who can predict ...I certainly don't want India to be in middle income nations and not making to high productivity high income nation before next avatar. Preparation for worse will make a nation survive..ask Russian and German friends on this.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 26 May 2018 03:29

eklavya wrote:
Suraj wrote:The burden of proof for asserting a mistake in a decision that's already been tested by all political permutations, therefore lies upon you.

All political permutations failing to make progress proves that there is no progress to be made? That is a logical, political and economic fallacy. Particularly if you know any politicians. :)

This is the India-UK thread after all, it's all about the politicians on both sides :) Can gains be made ? Sure, anything could be made on paper. But that's all coulda-woulda-shoulda.

The reality is that neither side of the political spectrum on either side has taken any steps. That is a sufficiently complete test of the fact that there is no pair of political groupings in the two countries that can be convinced to act differently. The two countries' governments simply do not offer each other enough for either side to decide to change anything.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 26 May 2018 03:51

Suraj wrote:
eklavya wrote:All political permutations failing to make progress proves that there is no progress to be made? That is a logical, political and economic fallacy. Particularly if you know any politicians. :)

This is the India-UK thread after all, it's all about the politicians on both sides :) Can gains be made ? Sure, anything could be made on paper. But that's all coulda-woulda-shoulda.

The reality is that neither side of the political spectrum on either side has taken any steps. That is a sufficiently complete test of the fact that there is no pair of political groupings in the two countries that can be convinced to act differently. The two countries' governments simply do not offer each other enough for either side to decide to change anything.

Well no!! That is not entirely true, I know few people in high places who has indirectly confirmed cold shoulder by Indian government on each one way offer by UK government in Cleaning Ganges, giving more scholarships to Indian students in the interim as a positive step towards building relationships, participating in smart cities projects in India yada yada. This were all icebreakers proposed to death but none of them going anywhere as somewhere in the beucratic maze of India lies the answer. Sticking point of labour transfer is making this not go anywhere. I don't like labour transfer anyway, we need skilled people in fresh and that includes doctors which can work hard build super speciality hospitals and treat both deshi and videshi clients and earn mullahs too.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 26 May 2018 04:23

While ashish and co continue to blame India with imaginary nonsense about cold shoulders to Ganga cleaning plans:
UK's hostile approach to immigration
Jnanesh, from Maharashtra, arrived in Britain nine years and eight months ago on a full Erasmus scholarship for an MSc in networking and e-commerce. Since then he’s worked for a string of mostly retail companies across Britain, and as an independent e-commerce consultant, earning and paying hundreds of thousands of pounds in taxes.

But in 2016, when he sought to apply for indefinite leave to remain (ILR) in the country (he had been on the Tier 1 Highly Skilled visa Route, which has since been closed), he was dismayed to have his application rejected, as the Home Office pointed to a small discrepancy in his 2010-11 tax filings — the first year when he had started his freelance work, and before he started to use the services of a full-fledged accounting firm.

He quickly made the necessary tax rectifications — which were accepted by HMRC, but the Home Office has stuck to its guns. Last month, his second application for ILR was rejected, and he received a letter demanding that he leave the country within 14 days.

Jnanesh, who has launched an admin appeal — one of the very few avenues open to him to challenge the decision — struggles to comprehend the decision and in particular the use by the Home Office of Section 322 (5) — until recently a little known part of the immigration rules — which are designed to keep terrorists and criminals from settling in Britain.

“It was a genuine mistake…this was the first ever year when I was dealing with tax assessments…and it never happened again in seven years. There is not a single penny of mistake. The Home Office’s own guidelines suggest there needs to be a pattern of deception and I certainly don’t fit into that.”

Jnanesh’s situation could have been seen as an anomaly — an administrative error — save for the fact that with increasing regularity men and women — like Jnanesh — who had been on Britain’s Tier 1 highly skilled workers visa and seeking to settle in Britain after the requisite amount of time, have received refusals on the very same grounds.

The treatment of the highly skilled migrants has provoked much concern in Parliament: earlier this month MPs sought clarity from the government — including new Home Minister Sajid Javid — on the use of Article 322 (5) and whether it was used to meet internal Home Office targets. Naz Shah, a Labour MP compared their treatment to the Windrush generation.

“You don’t apply tools for genuinely illegal migrants and those threatening national security to professionals — people who’ve made a genuine mistake,” says Lord Bilimoria, a cross bench member of the House of Lords and long-standing critic of the government’s approach to immigration.

“This is another indication — the Windrush scandal being the worst manifestation — of the hostile approach to immigration that has been in place since [Prime Minister] Theresa May took charge of the Home Office.”

Theresa May headed the Home Office between 2010 and 2016, before becoming Prime Minister after the Brexit referendum.

“These policies are not just unjust they are economically illiterate,” says Lord Bilimoria, pointing to the fact as Britain prepares to end free movement, the economy would be faced with a double whammy of fewer EU and non-EU migrants to fill key skills gaps and labour shortages in the economy.

The policies are a far cry from the government’s official stance which is that it welcomes the “brightest and the best” from overseas, and that it hopes to forge strong economic ties with non-EU nations (India, of course, included).

Jnanesh, too, has little doubt as to the bigger picture. “It really feels like they are just trying to find something against you.

They want to convert a legal, tax-paying migrant into an illegal migrant,” he says. “They are converting people like me into illegal migrants and then using whatever weapons they have at their disposal against illegal migrants.”

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby JE Menon » 26 May 2018 12:56

There is a huge difference in perceptions on these things, depending on whether one lives in the UK with citizenship or other legal right to stay, or one lives in India. In other words, where one's bread is buttered. It is only natural. One should expect no different, and it would be very Paki were it otherwise.

Europe needs people, young, energetic, hardworking, creative and socially easily integratable. In the UK, from ideological to physiological structure, there are no better people for this than Indians (Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Christians and Muslims - not necessarily in that order) - who come with reasonably good English to start with, and with a naturally conditioned affinity for the UK in particular and Europe in general, thanks in no small measure to an interesting Brit of yesteryear, Thomas Babington Macaulay. The UK should be grateful, and accept the Indian government's offer - which they will find in 20-25 years was the best thing to have happened to their own country after it gave Independence to India.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 26 May 2018 13:17

Suraj wrote:While ashish and co continue to blame India with imaginary nonsense about cold shoulders to Ganga cleaning plans:
UK's hostile approach to immigration
Jnanesh, from Maharashtra, arrived in Britain nine years and eight months ago on a full Erasmus scholarship for an MSc in networking and e-commerce. Since then he’s worked for a string of mostly retail companies across Britain, and as an independent e-commerce consultant, earning and paying hundreds of thousands of pounds in taxes.

But in 2016, when he sought to apply for indefinite leave to remain (ILR) in the country (he had been on the Tier 1 Highly Skilled visa Route, which has since been closed), he was dismayed to have his application rejected, as the Home Office pointed to a small discrepancy in his 2010-11 tax filings — the first year when he had started his freelance work, and before he started to use the services of a full-fledged accounting firm.

He quickly made the necessary tax rectifications — which were accepted by HMRC, but the Home Office has stuck to its guns. Last month, his second application for ILR was rejected, and he received a letter demanding that he leave the country within 14 days.

Jnanesh, who has launched an admin appeal — one of the very few avenues open to him to challenge the decision — struggles to comprehend the decision and in particular the use by the Home Office of Section 322 (5) — until recently a little known part of the immigration rules — which are designed to keep terrorists and criminals from settling in Britain.

“It was a genuine mistake…this was the first ever year when I was dealing with tax assessments…and it never happened again in seven years. There is not a single penny of mistake. The Home Office’s own guidelines suggest there needs to be a pattern of deception and I certainly don’t fit into that.”

Jnanesh’s situation could have been seen as an anomaly — an administrative error — save for the fact that with increasing regularity men and women — like Jnanesh — who had been on Britain’s Tier 1 highly skilled workers visa and seeking to settle in Britain after the requisite amount of time, have received refusals on the very same grounds.

The treatment of the highly skilled migrants has provoked much concern in Parliament: earlier this month MPs sought clarity from the government — including new Home Minister Sajid Javid — on the use of Article 322 (5) and whether it was used to meet internal Home Office targets. Naz Shah, a Labour MP compared their treatment to the Windrush generation.

“You don’t apply tools for genuinely illegal migrants and those threatening national security to professionals — people who’ve made a genuine mistake,” says Lord Bilimoria, a cross bench member of the House of Lords and long-standing critic of the government’s approach to immigration.

“This is another indication — the Windrush scandal being the worst manifestation — of the hostile approach to immigration that has been in place since [Prime Minister] Theresa May took charge of the Home Office.”

Theresa May headed the Home Office between 2010 and 2016, before becoming Prime Minister after the Brexit referendum.

“These policies are not just unjust they are economically illiterate,” says Lord Bilimoria, pointing to the fact as Britain prepares to end free movement, the economy would be faced with a double whammy of fewer EU and non-EU migrants to fill key skills gaps and labour shortages in the economy.

The policies are a far cry from the government’s official stance which is that it welcomes the “brightest and the best” from overseas, and that it hopes to forge strong economic ties with non-EU nations (India, of course, included).

Jnanesh, too, has little doubt as to the bigger picture. “It really feels like they are just trying to find something against you.

They want to convert a legal, tax-paying migrant into an illegal migrant,” he says. “They are converting people like me into illegal migrants and then using whatever weapons they have at their disposal against illegal migrants.”


What do you say about the nation with which we are new bff:
[url]
https://azitalaw.com/2017/05/consequenc ... mmigrants/
[/url]
Try applying for Massa citizenship after 5 years of imprisonment in filing incorrect tax returns and thy shall see how quickly one gets deported. Atleast in UK this guy will get justice and eventually he will stay although after some media push. Most of the time HMRC just fines and leaves the matter but it seems they have started becoming strict. I heard ex mayor of one town who hailed from commenwealth who was "white" and here for 40 years was recently deported on some pretext so it does not only apply to Indians only. Many EU guys AVE also fallen victim to it too.

Other nations have same laws if they choose to apply to.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Zynda » 26 May 2018 14:33

I don't understand some members wanting GoI to fight for Immigration rights for Indians who want to settle in outside India & possibly give up INC in future. I'd agree with GoI demanding easier access to professionals/employees from Indian companies working at client site etc., without which it could have a negative effect on Indian private sector & Indian economy eventually.

Same thing about students who want to go outside & study. It is not the job of GoI to fight for easier provisions to work in a foreign country. I really don't agree with GoI using this as the front line excuse. I'd want GoI to show these Brit$hits their place and there are plenty of genuine excuses like Britain providing shelter for many wanted Indians, that we can use.

A little OT: About a decade ago, when USCIS raided several fake universities in Cali, which were generous in offering F1 visas to students along with CPT/OPT provisions, which made it easier for people who had been laid off to seek employment and the main consumption of the above visas were Indian nationals. During the raid, USCIS had documents listing the students who had availed the services of these univs and there was a possibility that these students could be deported. Many of them (along with their parents here in India) were requesting GoI to "intervene" and save them. I think GoI did exactly that...dunno what compromises/provisions had to be given to GOTUS in order to hold off on mass deportations (few were deported as an eye wash) of affected people. I did not agree with GoI's actions back then as well...

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby siva509 » 26 May 2018 16:38

JE Menon wrote:There is a huge difference in perceptions on these things, depending on whether one lives in the UK with citizenship or other legal right to stay, or one lives in India. In other words, where one's bread is buttered. It is only natural. One should expect no different, and it would be very Paki were it otherwise.

Europe needs people, young, energetic, hardworking, creative and socially easily integratable. In the UK, from ideological to physiological structure, there are no better people for this than Indians (Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Christians and Muslims - not necessarily in that order) - who come with reasonably good English to start with, and with a naturally conditioned affinity for the UK in particular and Europe in general, thanks in no small measure to an interesting Brit of yesteryear, Thomas Babington Macaulay. The UK should be grateful, and accept the Indian government's offer - which they will find in 20-25 years was the best thing to have happened to their own country after it gave Independence to India.

This is my first post, pardon my writing skills.
Je Menon,I fully agree with your views.
The main issue i see here is the ego clash between two deep states, (Newly wealthy and old wealthy).
Having said that we need have to close cooperation with UK, by converting this into opportunity. In the whole of Anglo-saxon or Western world this is going to be the only opening we have to reform our key pillars (Viz. Health, Education, Law and Order). Then comes the others, Town and country planning, Environment, Water managment, Power, Public transport and recycling. The whole of standards and regulation currently in place in India needs revamped, our bureacracy is rustic , compared to their well oiled machine(even though theirs are highly crony capitalist in nature. all utilites ex, BT, BA and all Rail and public transport).
Once there is some motion in these between India and UK, the rest of the issues will iron out naturally. Especially the hand over of economic fugutives, movement of professional people etc.
However we need understand the crack in their society- The demographic crack , well to do old generations vs The debt burdened young without any social mobility. Also there is geographical divide the south vs North. All these cracks are giving crazy outcomes in political environment like the crazy Theresa May becoming PM and Brexit etc.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby JE Menon » 26 May 2018 17:04

>>I don't understand some members wanting GoI to fight for Immigration rights for Indians who want to settle in outside India

This is not about "immigration rights". I am not sure there is such a thing. I am only aware of the regulatory environment surrounding immigration, which starts at a base across the EU, and then varies fairly dramatically (and often whimsically) at the last mile from state to state.

As Suraj has said in post after post, this is about mobility of labour which should be comparable to mobility of capital. What is it that we will get from the UK, in concrete terms? This does not have to be a zero-sum game, as it might appear, but it is a game. And the only difference now is that our hand is a bit stronger in this round. Why should we play as if is weaker?

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Karthik S » 26 May 2018 18:08

ashish raval wrote:
Suraj wrote:While ashish and co continue to blame India with imaginary nonsense about cold shoulders to Ganga cleaning plans:


Try applying for Massa citizenship after 5 years of imprisonment in filing incorrect tax returns and thy shall see how quickly one gets deported. Atleast in UK this guy will get justice and eventually he will stay although after some media push. Most of the time HMRC just fines and leaves the matter but it seems they have started becoming strict. I heard ex mayor of one town who hailed from commenwealth who was "white" and here for 40 years was recently deported on some pretext so it does not only apply to Indians only. Many EU guys AVE also fallen victim to it too.

Other nations have same laws if they choose to apply to.


Sir, you are comparing someone who committed a small mistake (minor discrepancy) in the first year he started freelancing, before he took help of an accounting firm to someone who did 5 years jail time? Nobody does that long jail time unless he or she indulged in serious fraud.
We all know you are more loyal to UK and queen than your prince harry. But this is getting little ridiculous.
Personally, I have no soft corner to the guy in question, he after all wanted to surrender in Indian passport, but Suraj's main point is about the way UQ deals with India.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby rsingh » 26 May 2018 18:27

Gurus, my point was simple. Asking for more Indian to be allowed to immigrate to UK ( by HC) is a shameful act. Have you got any self-respect left? India has to make right conditions at home so that we do not need to plead other countries to let us settle there. And even if you have to make such point then make it privately. This is NOT supposed to be a bargaining chip. Get more important clause of which are important to national interests. This immigration thing will come anyway. Oxbridge is full of Indian students anyway. We have Indian students all over. Even false students are crowding Gurudwaras and Mandirs. What do you want more? Make it like Australia or Newzealand where college graduates end up as cab drivers and earn peanuts?
Secondly as someone said that we get 3 billion USD from UK. So much for big diaspora and "doctors". Again we get most of the remittances from gulf countries where unskilled labour is soul bread earner for family back home. I stand vindicated.
Bajwa Sir, What you say is right. That is what I have been doing since 1987. I am part of First Hindu Mandir in Brussels. We helped Hinduism to be recognised as religion here. It one of the most difficult task to start and maintain a house of worship. Brussels Gurudwara is closed by authorities because of the havoc devotees created in the area . Constant fight in the Gurudwara were common and police used to come inside with shoes. There goes your soft power in one go. I know most of the people here ( who are well established here) and nobody has invested in India. Our biggest problem is to manage the ancestral property because everybody is out there to cheat. I bought an apartment ( they call it flat in India) in Noida and asked one of colse relative to take care of it. Some how he managed to put the property under his name and he does not want to talk about it. So do not have any illusion. Any Indian who is settled abroad and has kids educated in that country, will think twice before investing in India.
I have nothing against anybody on this forum and I am not targeting anybody. I respect honest and qualified criticism. I write as I feel. Thanks

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby rsingh » 26 May 2018 18:41

JE Menon wrote:There is a huge difference in perceptions on these things, depending on whether one lives in the UK with citizenship or other legal right to stay, or one lives in India. In other words, where one's bread is buttered. It is only natural. One should expect no different, and it would be very Paki were it otherwise.

Europe needs people, young, energetic, hardworking, creative and socially easily integratable. In the UK, from ideological to physiological structure, there are no better people for this than Indians (Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Christians and Muslims - not necessarily in that order) - who come with reasonably good English to start with, and with a naturally conditioned affinity for the UK in particular and Europe in general, thanks in no small measure to an interesting Brit of yesteryear, Thomas Babington Macaulay. The UK should be grateful, and accept the Indian government's offer - which they will find in 20-25 years was the best thing to have happened to their own country after it gave Independence to India.


Sir Europe need people and Central and Eastern Europe is solving that problem. It happening right now. Muslims have done great favour by revealing the cards. Mango European is tired of that.


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