Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

[Suresh S]

chetak ,s analysis is on the money. my thoughts exactly. mallya is coming before the election

[ArjunPandit]

UK has too much on their plate to care about mallya. They would not expend any capital with this guy. They will see who benefits them most. This guy doesnt. Anyways he was expendable.

[Singha]

problem is even if the high court rejects his appeal, he can still approach the supreme court i think. he is counting on delaying this for a few months to get a friendlier sultanate back in delhi.

[chetak]

problem is even if the high court rejects his appeal, he can still approach the supreme court i think. he is counting on delaying this for a few months to get a friendlier sultanate back in delhi.

the court has to give him permission to appeal further.

it is not like our courts where endless appeals will go on for generations

the mafia queen will be even more vicious, as she will have a point to prove, as will any coalition govt that comes to power.

mallaya has a solid in with a humble farmers party in KAR only

[Haresh]

Indians exploiting Indians in London

https://www.facebook.com/vinesh.vaswani ... 157/?t=500

[Suraj]

In recent years, the UK has overturned extradition orders signed by the Home Office (US was the requesting country each time) at either district or high court levels for what appears to be two broad reasons:
1. the alleged activity primarily occured in the UK and not the country requesting extradition. Does not apply to Mallya
2. ECHR Article 5 (right to safety and security, no indefinite detention), Article 6(fair trial) and Article 10(freedom of expression) violations.

My guess is his lawyers will use one or more of what's in the second in their appeal. Will they win ? I don't know and don't think so - the last time it was successfully used, the person involved had committed a crime that might cause him lifetime imprisonment / death penalty in US. Mallya might be hard pressed to prove an ECHR Art 5/6/10 case because the Home Secretary's decision also checks the same. Rather interesting too since Brexit is 2 months away and hanging his hat upon ECHR articles is rather interesting. What happens when Brexit comes along and UK isn't tied to ECHR anymore ?

[Singha]

Uk has to choose wisely now
Either with usbor against us
No more hiding under eu rules

[Kashi]

UK will continue to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds, especially when it comes to India.

Recent proclamation of "non-interference" in "Kashmir/Khalistan/day/referendum" is a clear example of that. Not to emotion the fake EVM hackacircus that was hosted in The Cesspool recently.

[Singha]

with most influential indian elites having 'investments' in london, (actually all elites around the world have a nest egg/planB/kids in london), they have undue punching weight for their value to the world. and they know how to exploit that.

[nandakumar]

In recent years, the UK has overturned extradition orders signed by the Home Office (US was the requesting country each time) at either district or high court levels for what appears to be two broad reasons:
1. the alleged activity primarily occured in the UK and not the country requesting extradition. Does not apply to Mallya
2. ECHR Article 5 (right to safety and security, no indefinite detention), Article 6(fair trial) and Article 10(freedom of expression) violations.

My guess is his lawyers will use one or more of what's in the second in their appeal. Will they win ? I don't know and don't think so - the last time it was successfully used, the person involved had committed a crime that might cause him lifetime imprisonment / death penalty in US. Mallya might be hard pressed to prove an ECHR Art 5/6/10 case because the Home Secretary's decision also checks the same. Rather interesting too since Brexit is 2 months away and hanging his hat upon ECHR articles is rather interesting. What happens when Brexit comes along and UK isn't tied to ECHR anymore ?

I thought all those defences were tried in the lower and were rejected. They constitute aspects 'facts' of the case. Hence no longer applicable as grounds of appeal.

[Suraj]

I thought all those defences were tried in the lower and were rejected. They constitute aspects 'facts' of the case. Hence no longer applicable as grounds of appeal.

He had to wait until the Home Secretary made a decision before he could appeal it. Can't appeal before a determination is made.

The Magistrates Court on Dec 10 handed out a decision agreeing that Mallya had indeed made false representations, committed fraud etc. The next step was for Home Office to decide what to do, which they had 2 months to do. They just decided that he would be extradited.

I don't know whether UK law permits Mallya to appeal the determination that he committed fraud, or whether he can only appeal the decision to extradite him . Courts don't generally reverse a decision without new basis, so I'm guessing his legal team would emphasis the hyooman rights angle of why king of good times cannot be subjected to not particularly good times.

Edit: corrected terminology. He's being extradited and not deported. Very different things.

[Vips]

UK to invite India to co-develop sixth-generation fighter aircraft Tempest.

[chetak]

UK to invite India to co-develop sixth-generation fighter aircraft Tempest.

And so it begins again, another east India type ops, Indian money, britshit IP.

[Singha]

but as i noted in another thread, where is the 50-100b USD of basic r&d needed to funnel into deliverables for a 6th gen fighter base ?
we dont have it, neither does UK, or japan alone.

if we join together, in a carefully managed contract wrt design and workshare, it is feasible. else i dont think Tempest may see light of day.

[Kashi]

Japan already has their own next-gen fighter project, the Mitsubishi X-2, that's already flown as a demonstrator and they are seeking participation from global majors. Why would they join a project that's not even on the drawing board yet?

[Singha]

they have had some talks with the british/EF people. they too need numbers , tech and funds to make it viable. a sub scale empty TD is not going to hack it. for that matter even south korea has some TD either flying or planned.
so even japan which has decades of high class manufacturing , F1 & F2 fighters in service and makes a lot of parts for Boeing, apart from building some of its own engines , cargo and transport planes feels it unviable to go it alone.

and we expect little HAL and ADA to deliver AMCA and make no mistake IAF will not accept it unless its atleast 80% as good as a JSF. swadeshi projects - we need to setup a separate non-fighting PLAAF type "force in being" AF in parallel

time x cost x complexity x reinventing it all will kill AMCA.

from the shinshin wiki itself.

By July 2018, Japan had gleaned sufficient information from flight tests for a determination, and decided that it would need to bring on-board international partners to complete this project. Several companies have responded. Lockheed Martin is reportedly offering an updated version of the F-22 Raptor. British based BAE Systems also entered talks about which little is yet reported. Third to enter the competition is Northrop Grumman and there is speculation that it will offer a modernized version of the YF-23 to Japan.

[V_Raman]

UK to invite India to co-develop sixth-generation fighter aircraft Tempest.

And so it begins again, another east India type ops, Indian money, britshit IP.

Maybe this is the reason May visited India. She might have discussed Mallya too. AMCA is 5th gen, not 6th gen. More things might fall out of the closet in due course...

[Karan M]

Doing everything in isolation is fine, but remember this is stealth and co-operation and access to the best BAe can offer is a good thing. Just accept the deal after seeing our core needs are met and go-ahead. Accelerate the AMCA, dont make it a Plan B to get better terms for Plan A which is what the IAF often uses local projects as.

[Singha]

these projects seem to be families of product using shared comps and core architectures. atleast the franco-german one clearly is.

having missed the bus badly on UAVs, we need to put our paws into the UCAV and HALE bus before that one flies away too.

germany it seems spend 500 mil Euros on a huge drone called Euro Hawk, before cancelling it

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... to-canada/
https://www.dw.com/en/sky-high-costs-fo ... a-18596366

now they are spending 2.5b USD to get just 4 Triton drones and some base stations
https://www.dw.com/en/us-approves-25b-d ... a-43289530

this is a price tag we simply cannot afford. we really are in the dumps with Rustom2 nowhere in sight and nirbhay also probably cancelled with nothing COTS.

[chetak]

Doing everything in isolation is fine, but remember this is stealth and co-operation and access to the best BAe can offer is a good thing. Just accept the deal after seeing our core needs are met and go-ahead. Accelerate the AMCA, dont make it a Plan B to get better terms for Plan A which is what the IAF often uses local projects as.

the britshits see us as the primary cause of their diminished influence and the sorry state of affairs they find themselves in and they will never give us anything especially when we are on the verge of exceeding their GDP. In PPP terms we are already far ahead of them.

It is like rubbing salt on their gaping wounds and we bounced back in just 70 odd years in spite of the deliberate mess they left us in.

The amerikis were responsible, in a significant measure, to their leaving India rather reluctantly.

Both deep states look at us with a visceral hatred. Think nixon, kissinger and churchill, if ever in doubt.

The amerikis helped out cheen by letting/getting the britshits export RR Spey engines to them in very significant numbers during nixon's outreach.

Both have consistently blocked engine tech from getting to India, among many other things, and continue to do so even now.

[chetak]

these projects seem to be families of product using shared comps and core architectures. atleast the franco-german one clearly is.

having missed the bus badly on UAVs, we need to put our paws into the UCAV and HALE bus before that one flies away too.

germany it seems spend 500 mil Euros on a huge drone called Euro Hawk, before cancelling it

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... to-canada/
https://www.dw.com/en/sky-high-costs-fo ... a-18596366

now they are spending 2.5b USD to get just 4 Triton drones and some base stations
https://www.dw.com/en/us-approves-25b-d ... a-43289530

this is a price tag we simply cannot afford. we really are in the dumps with Rustom2 nowhere in sight and nirbhay also probably cancelled with nothing COTS.

we were offered the dornier 328 design, plant and machinery, for a song and we refused because of some very bloated egos, both in the research as well as the psu community.

We are naturally very limber and flexible and so we can and do screw ourselves successfully each and every time in unique ways not yet discovered.

If some organisations do produce consistent results over years and years, with the very same kalu Indians working there, why do some others fail consistently over years and years with similar kalu Indians working there too??

as per one great mahatma director working and heading a so called, well reputed organisation, it took over 22 years for them to produce the first UAV.

[Karan M]

Money talks, and as they say, the Brits will do anything for funding.

BAe did send folks across to assist with the LCA for the right dinero. No reason they wont take our coins to get Tempest up and running.

Nobody hates their master more than the brown-noser. The Brits are surely chafing at buying the F-35 and how many hoops they have had to jump through to get it.

the britshits see us as the primary cause of their diminished influence and the sorry state of affairs they find themselves in and they will never give us anything especially when we are on the verge of exceeding their GDP. In PPP terms we are already far ahead of them.

It is like rubbing salt on their gaping wounds and we bounced back in just 70 odd years in spite of the deliberate mess they left us in.

The amerikis were responsible, in a significant measure, to their leaving India rather reluctantly.

Both deep states look at us with a visceral hatred. Think nixon, kissinger and churchill, if ever in doubt.

The amerikis helped out cheen by letting/getting the britshits export RR Spey engines to them in very significant numbers during nixon's outreach.

Both have consistently blocked engine tech from getting to India, among many other things, and continue to do so even now.

[Suresh S]

If anybody thinks that anglo americans will give you something like this or anything significant it is height of stupidity. having spent my life working with these people my only advice is do not under any circumstances. They have broken every promise to everyone through centuries. If having been completely destroyed by these same people if we still think they will give you stealth tech then whatever happens to us we deserve it fully and I am pretty sure it wont be anything good.

[Neela]

Doing everything in isolation is fine, but remember this is stealth and co-operation and access to the best BAe can offer is a good thing. Just accept the deal after seeing our core needs are met and go-ahead. Accelerate the AMCA, dont make it a Plan B to get better terms for Plan A which is what the IAF often uses local projects as.

Do they still have the skills Karan? Surely pensions and Spain are more tempting .

[Karan M]

Suresh S, before displaying your stupidity by informing all of us otherwise politely discussing the topic that we are stupid, perhaps you may do the following.

Look at the Tejas FBW & who assisted in its development post sanctions from LockMart
Look at this aircraft called the Jaguar, and see where it came from and where it was made
This aircraft called the Hawk, and likewise
This aircraft called the Hawker Hunter and who sold it to India
This aircraft called the Folland Gnat and when did the HAL Ajeet get developed
This tank called the Vijayanta..

etc etc.

Perhaps, before engaging in verbal histrionics, can you get off the soapbox and actually think things through?

[nachiket]

This tank called the Vijayanta..

The Centurion as well! Without which the victory at Asal Uttar may not have been possible.

[Karan M]

Doing everything in isolation is fine, but remember this is stealth and co-operation and access to the best BAe can offer is a good thing. Just accept the deal after seeing our core needs are met and go-ahead. Accelerate the AMCA, dont make it a Plan B to get better terms for Plan A which is what the IAF often uses local projects as.

Do they still have the skills Karan? Surely pensions and Spain are more tempting .

As much as I may not enjoy saying this, BAe remains an industrial powerhouse.
When it comes to aircraft design and even RF, i would still state they can definitely assist ADA (provided the price is right). Plus there is RR on the propulsion side.
BAe is deeply involved along with EADS in the EF program and they did have the EAP before hand, and this nifty testbed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Replica) which has led to this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Taranis).
BAe also has a very comprehensive RF practice, FCS expertise.. its basically a one-stop house for many systems and technologies.

We will never get anything from the US due to ITAR and the reluctance of the US to create a near peer competitor. France and the UK remain our best bets.

[Karan M]

Russia has simply fallen too far behind in the short term to give us the kind of stuff we need without us having to finance a lot of their baseline infra and research, which we simply cannot afford (and should not either, we should spend it in our own country).
France & the UK both have some credible 5G programs going on, and both have (via the Rafale and EF respectively), technology development continuing for fighter aircraft. We have really got some good programs underway with France, but we should always seek to diversify our sources of tech. IMHO, the private sector has already shown they can work with and even acquire Brit firms. No reason why ADA et al, with some liberal management/MOD support can't do likewise.

[Suresh S]

Anybody will sell you anything for a price. You tell me which significant tech they gave to us . I am not talking about them selling us tanks and aircrafts. Did we develop the fly by wire on our own on Tejas or according to you we received significant help from Britain .No body is calling you or anyone else stupid it is a generic statement.

[Kashi]

I would be interested to see what significant tech ANYONE has given us, without charging an arm or a leg or without backing off on their commitment afterwards.

[Singha]

vikas engine of isro ? SE200 semi cryo engine of yuzhnoye ukraine ? arihant propulsion plant and design ? PL480 foodgrain from massa

HM ambassador and the 3 wheeled abomination known as Reliant Robin

[chetak]

If anybody thinks that anglo americans will give you something like this or anything significant it is height of stupidity. having spent my life working with these people my only advice is do not under any circumstances. They have broken every promise to everyone through centuries. If having been completely destroyed by these same people if we still think they will give you stealth tech then whatever happens to us we deserve it fully and I am pretty sure it wont be anything good.

nobody is going to give us anything.

they played ball willingly with the cheenis because of some imagined benefits. They have been right royally screwed by the hans and so now the whites imagine that they have learned some lesson from the experience which they will try to implement with India and screw us in the bargain.

[chetak]

Russia has simply fallen too far behind in the short term to give us the kind of stuff we need without us having to finance a lot of their baseline infra and research, which we simply cannot afford (and should not either, we should spend it in our own country).
France & the UK both have some credible 5G programs going on, and both have (via the Rafale and EF respectively), technology development continuing for fighter aircraft. We have really got some good programs underway with France, but we should always seek to diversify our sources of tech. IMHO, the private sector has already shown they can work with and even acquire Brit firms. No reason why ADA et al, with some liberal management/MOD support can't do likewise.

Do not confuse private sector with the govt sector. They are two very different birds, especially in India.

Tata JLR cannot use UK tech outside the UK even though they own the company. IP is very strictly compartmentalized and rigidly enforced by the britshit govt with very harsh penalties.

France will go so far but no further. They, just like the britshits and the amerikis are racist.

On payment, our best bets are the russkies and the israelis.

Sure, it will cost an arm and a leg but both are workable and doable.

[chetak]

vikas engine of isro ? SE200 semi cryo engine of yuzhnoye ukraine ? arihant propulsion plant and design ? PL480 foodgrain from massa

HM ambassador and the 3 wheeled abomination known as Reliant Robin

vikas engine went through a very hellish phase because of deliberately misleading and vague drawings and crucially missing vital details.

we spent much time and treasure sorting through these issues but we prevailed and also learned. Even for transfer of tech, we just do not have guys knowledgable enough to separate the wheat from the chaff.

If we had such guys, we wouldn't need the gora tech in the first place. ISRO and the nuclear guys have got up to speed quite fast and are able to discriminate. Others are dismally behind.

moreover, for each of the above, we have paid very heavily, in one way or the other.

[hnair]

This is an opening shot in a grand game, which is pretty much targeted at Russia and China.

Hence this offer from BAe is interesting, nothing more nothing less. IIRC, the LCA and Gripen's basic layout and concepts were first based out of initial BAe studies for a single-engined fighter as is Vikrant class? So it is not like we haven't talked with them before. As it is, most of the brit projects like Gnat to Avros to Jag have been run with far less tantrums than the Russian ones. Obviously due to the ToT level being much higher than the Russian ones. So no point in comparing them to PAKFA or 29K saga. As Karan M and brar_w has pointed out, BAe still retains a very significant IP space in the tech sector and is as much a big player as Franco-German ones.

Plus if you look at Khan ecosystem it is like Khan > Brit > Israeli > Japanese, when it comes to their tech partnerships. So maybe this is khan signaling that he can part with more serious tech via BAe, like engine mat-science etc much beyond what the Israelis can help us out with.

It is upto us to be losers and let them repeat EIC or think that we can never do the EIC back to them. We have gently prised off the very lucrative cricket ecosystem from their hands, using our market clout. We can do that with other areas too.

This program must be for a single-seater can be fed into the AMCA program. That is the key challenge

vikas engine went through a very hellish phase because of deliberately misleading and vague drawings and crucially missing vital details.

moreover, for each of the above, we have paid very heavily, in one way or the other.

chetak, please! That is not really true. The period they spend in Vernon for the vikas is much cherished by the very serious folks who went there to learn something new (and learned!). I remember posting an article of about a reunion of such folks. I kind of know some of them around here. There was not any deliberate misleading as you are implying, even with the Russian CAB project. For both consultancies, there were issues with tech absorption, as well as calibrating for Indian design parameters and manufacturing conditions. A batch-mate of mine was laisoning for years with CNES till two years back and he has not said anything bad about the stint there. Nambi-sir too talks fondly of this


Class of 1974: Rocket science & reminiscences

[chetak]

@hnair

saar,

I am not just blowing smoke. The number of locally made vikas engines that failed tests, not in ISRO but at other facilities is very high. It took a while for them to figure out many things but in the end they got it done.

Many bitter lessons were learned during local manufacture.

BTW, you are talking french side and I am talking Indian side, its like chalk and cheese.

The french are very very hospitable guys, especially where money is concerned.

I have worked long enough with these goras to know what's what.

They cost the "hospitality" in the proposal itself by distributing it under other heads so it is not noticeable and eventually it gets billed back to you.

[Singha]

BaE systems has many khan linkages, so it might be another way of getting the fruits of the khan ecosystem just as israel is our other route. I am sure the Elta/Elop/Rafale gear we use has khan parts or some output of khan funds for israeli activity.

>> This is an opening shot in a grand game, which is pretty much targeted at Russia and China.

I agree, this is a time for us to get our elephant trunk, and perhaps part of our belly inside tent to feast on the fruit n honey .... its all about radiating less threat and being a friendly hathi to grab a seat at the table. Agnee7 will continue to have a miserable range of 5000km only (with a 5 ton warhead)

[pankajs]

Instead of Agony7 .. we continue to develop Agni5 with a range of 5k-8k with a warhead of 5 ton.

[chetak]

Instead of Agony7 .. we continue to develop Agni5 with a range of 5k-8k with a warhead of 5 ton.

sirji,

what makes you believe the published ranges??

Would the hans be so upset if the published ranges were actually true??

Its when you do to the hans exactly what they do unto you that they get really upset.

[pankajs]

No one has to believe the punished range but 5k-8k is enough to give China the shivers. I am just pointing out that nomenclature does not / should not have any impact on future development or the actual range/capability.