Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

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Lisa
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Lisa » 05 Nov 2019 16:56

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 911496.cms

BJP support group bats for Tories in 48 key UK seats

“We are not supporting them because some of them have a Khalistani tag, they are not doing anything for us or looking at India as a sovereign nation. Some of them have signed letters against India. We will happily support anyone who supports India as a sovereign nation, including non-Indian origin candidates, against these candidates,” Shekhawat said.

“If the entire Indian community in the UK votes Tory, we will see a swing of around 40 seats to the Tories. This will swing the actual election result,” he declared.

Until now the Indian community in Britain has not voted en bloc — unlike the Pakistan community, which is directed by imams on how to vote. But now the OFBJP is approaching temples, social groups, and hundreds of Asian community bodies to tell them not to vote Labour. “We have met 37 groups so far and organised meetings in all the possible temples,” Shekhawat said.

He said they were supporting just one Labour PIO MP, Virendra Sharma, who represents Ealing Southall, as “he had stood up for the community”.

“Not a single Hindu will vote for Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi this time,” said Shekhawat. “Hindu voters think he is working closely with the Pakistani community. He is always seen with Pakistanis and goes to the Pakistan high commission. He is a vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group (APPG) on Britain-Pakistan Trade and Tourism and was vice-chair of the APPG Kashmir group. Why is that? The Indian community in Slough are annoyed and have decided to vote for the Tory candidate,” Shekhawat said.

“We have a team in each constituency which is going round with the Tory candidate leafleting, speaking to people and persuading them to vote Tory. The teams are organised by the BJP and Friends of India Society International (FISI),” the OFBJP UK president said.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Kashi » 05 Nov 2019 17:19

Primus wrote:when our adopted land is attacked in any manner anywhere, we stand up in defense of it.


Admirable sentiments PrimusJi. But how about when your adopted land is doing the attacking? Especially against India?

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby komal » 05 Nov 2019 19:02

^
Would nominate for post of the year

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Haresh » 05 Nov 2019 20:29

Labour party is institutionally racist against Indians and India.

https://twitter.com/FISI_UK/status/1191659218593554432

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Primus » 05 Nov 2019 20:46

Kashi wrote:
Primus wrote:when our adopted land is attacked in any manner anywhere, we stand up in defense of it.


Admirable sentiments PrimusJi. But how about when your adopted land is doing the attacking? Especially against India?


Great question Kashi Ji.

Let me reverse it and ask you what would YOU do in my situation? You were born in one country but have spent a longer time living in another, which has fed you, given you the clothes on your back and a roof over your head. Your children have grown up here and know no other life. What would you do under the circumstances?

What does your conscience and Dharma require of you? Would you consider Karna a traitor to the Pandavas for fighting on the side of the Kauravas?

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby nandakumar » 05 Nov 2019 21:18

Primus wrote:
Kashi wrote:
Admirable sentiments PrimusJi. But how about when your adopted land is doing the attacking? Especially against India?


Great question Kashi Ji.

Let me reverse it and ask you what would YOU do in my situation? You were born in one country but have spent a longer time living in another, which has fed you, given you the clothes on your back and a roof over your head. Your children have grown up here and know no other life. What would you do under the circumstances?

What does your conscience and Dharma require of you? Would you consider Karna a traitor to the Pandavas for fighting on the side of the Kauravas?

A very good counterpoint!

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Haresh » 05 Nov 2019 23:02

Primus wrote:Let me reverse it and ask you what would YOU do in my situation? You were born in one country but have spent a longer time living in another, which has fed you, given you the clothes on your back and a roof over your head. Your children have grown up here and know no other life. What would you do under the circumstances?

What does your conscience and Dharma require of you? Would you consider Karna a traitor to the Pandavas for fighting on the side of the Kauravas?


I am in the same situation, although I was born here, as was my wife and my kids.
Indians are not like the peacefuls, we are and have to be loyal to the country we live in. We cannot be like the paks/other peacefulls.

Sure Britain is involved in all sorts of attacking, however this is I believe more the media, left wing politicians and the tabloid media.

How would Indian citizens in India feel if pakistan was (as it does) appeal to moslems to put that identity and loyalty above their citizenship of India?

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby vijayk » 05 Nov 2019 23:52

Haresh wrote:
Primus wrote:Let me reverse it and ask you what would YOU do in my situation? You were born in one country but have spent a longer time living in another, which has fed you, given you the clothes on your back and a roof over your head. Your children have grown up here and know no other life. What would you do under the circumstances?

What does your conscience and Dharma require of you? Would you consider Karna a traitor to the Pandavas for fighting on the side of the Kauravas?


I am in the same situation, although I was born here, as was my wife and my kids.
Indians are not like the peacefuls, we are and have to be loyal to the country we live in. We cannot be like the paks/other peacefulls.

Sure Britain is involved in all sorts of attacking, however this is I believe more the media, left wing politicians and the tabloid media.

How would Indian citizens in India feel if pakistan was (as it does) appeal to moslems to put that identity and loyalty above their citizenship of India?



No body asked you to put your identity and loyalty above the nation.

You learn the truth, understand the propaganda of racist/left media and disseminate the truth as much as you. Above all, keep yourself updated and don't fall for propaganda and help friends/families/relatives/acquaintances to understand.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Primus » 06 Nov 2019 04:48

vijayk wrote:
Haresh wrote:
I am in the same situation, although I was born here, as was my wife and my kids.
Indians are not like the peacefuls, we are and have to be loyal to the country we live in. We cannot be like the paks/other peacefulls.

Sure Britain is involved in all sorts of attacking, however this is I believe more the media, left wing politicians and the tabloid media.

How would Indian citizens in India feel if pakistan was (as it does) appeal to moslems to put that identity and loyalty above their citizenship of India?



No body asked you to put your identity and loyalty above the nation.

You learn the truth, understand the propaganda of racist/left media and disseminate the truth as much as you. Above all, keep yourself updated and don't fall for propaganda and help friends/families/relatives/acquaintances to understand.


This is the eternal question every one of us faces at some point in life. How do you balance your economic/material interests against your conscience and the voice of Dharma. The question is even more difficult for those of us who have left Desh years ago and now call another country our home. Perhaps for us Americans it maybe a little easier since there has never been direct conflict between the country of our birth and that of our adoption. However, there is a large Indian diaspora that is living in places where the host nation is, to put it bluntly, hostile towards India.

I love the definitions of our various spheres of existence and influence as outlined by the venerated writer and philosopher Sita Ram Goel. I have always recommended his book, 'How I Became a Hindu' to everyone, since we will all find ourselves reflected in it somewhere. He does not spare himself in this autobiographical journey and it is worth spending the time, worth revisiting if you have read it already.

Thus, the land(s) of our birth would be our Pitrabhumi i.e. the land of our ancestors. This is the same as when Tarek Fateh talks about 'dariya-e-Sindh' being his birthplace and even honest muslims like Aslam Gora accept they are 'Hindu' by birth. This is the place where our language, our customs, our culture, our heritage comes from.

The sphere of our spirituality, the Dharma that we follow is not a geographical location, but an ever-shifting, yet permanent influence in our lives that defines our character and who we are, it is the voice of our conscience - i.e. our Punyabhumi

Finally, the land that we are settled in, where we find solace, where we live, work and raise our children, whose ethos we have now become a part of, that is our 'Karmabhumi'.

Every morning I recite the following:

समुद्रवसने देवि पर्वतस्तनमण्डले ।
विष्णुपत्नि नमस्तुभ्यं पादस्पर्शं क्षमस्वमे ॥

To me it matters not that it is the soil of the United States I am addressing this to. To me it is the same mother earth.

Dharma requires, nay, demands loyalty to the Karmabhumi before anything else. At least that is how I see it.

This is now OT for this thread.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Rony » 06 Nov 2019 19:55

The British Did Not "Invent" India

Do you know what this is?

Image

Its a coin, alright…but do you recognize the logo?

No?

Let’s turn the coin over

Image

It is issued by the East India company in 1835.

Even before the Brits set foot in India a group of them founded The East India Company in 1600

It was called East India Company, not East Jodhpur Company, East Travancore Company, Mysore Company, East Maratha Company or Junagadh Company or Punjab Company, CoochBehar Company or any of the 400 princely states that were present.

Unless the idea of India existed, why would they name it as East India Company?

If you go back further into the Mughal empire, still we find reference to the term Hindustan in Ain-i-Akbari

"Another name for the empire was Hindustan, which was documented in the Ain-i-Akbari, and which has been described as the closest to an official name for the empire".[1]

Let’s go back further and then we have this villain Christopher Columbus born in the 15th century(why he is a villain is for another answer)

Image

He set out to discover a westerly sea route to India. So much so, that when he discovered the Americas, he thought he had landed on the islands of India. And therefore the present day name of West Indies.

And then if you go further back to the time of Chandragupta Maurya, we have Megasthenes (from 3rd Century BC) the Greek ambassador sent by Seleucus Nicator. Megasthenes widely traveled all over this land and came up with his magnum opus which was called guess what Indica!! not Magadhaca (technically he had come to the kingdom of Magadha, remember?)

"Megasthenes (/mɪˈɡæsθɪniːz/ mi-GAS-thi-neez; Ancient Greek: Μεγασθένης, c. 350 – c. 290 BC) was an ancient Greek historian, diplomat and Indian ethnographer and explorer in the Hellenistic period. He described India in his book Indika, which is now lost, but has been partially reconstructed from the writings of the later authors".[2]

So this concept of India like you see has been existing way before the British came to India.

Sure enough, there were different princely states ruling the land of India. But there was a common sense of identity of belonging to the land of Bharatavarsha

The next time you organize a pooja at your home, listen carefully to the initial mantras that the priest chants

It will be something in the lines of “jambudweepe, bharatha khande, bharatha varshe (historic name of your city, village) …<name of the year>, <the phase of the moon>,<date>,<gotra family lineage>,<name of the person organizing the pooja> is doing so and so pooja”

"ॐ विष्णुर्विष्णुर्विष्णु:, ॐ अद्य ब्रह्मणोऽह्नि द्वितीय परार्धे श्री श्वेतवाराहकल्पे वैवस्वतमन्वन्तरे, अष्टाविंशतितमे कलियुगे, कलिप्रथम चरणे------- जम्बूद्वीपे भरतखण्डे भारतवर्षे ---------(अपने नगर/गांव का नाम लें) पुण्य क्षेत्रे बौद्धावतारे वीर विक्रमादित्यनृपते : 2068, तमेऽब्दे क्रोधी नाम संवत्सरे उत्तरायणे बसंत ऋतो महामंगल्यप्रदे मासानां मासोत्तमे चैत्र मासे शुक्ल पक्षे प्रतिपदायां तिथौ सोम वासरे (गोत्र का नाम लें) गोत्रोत्पन्नोऽहं अमुकनामा (अपना नाम लें) सकलपापक्षयपूर्वकं सर्वारिष्ट शांतिनिमित्तं सर्वमंगलकामनया- श्रुतिस्मृत्योक्तफलप्राप्त्यर्थं मनेप्सित कार्य सिद्धयर्थं श्री दुर्गा पूजनं च अहं करिष्ये। तत्पूर्वागंत्वेन निर्विघ्नतापूर्वक कार्य सिद्धयर्थं यथामिलितोपचारे गणपति पूजनं करिष्ये"

So did this Shloka get created after the British united us and gave it the name of India?

This shloka and many other such shlokas in Hinduism are thousands of years old. So naturally, the idea of India/ Bharatha has been existing from thousands of years.

The land of Bharatha has been named after emperor Bharatha who is the descendant of Rishabhadeva. There is a fine description of Emperor Bharatha in Bhagavatham canto 5 chapter 7 to 13. [3]

This land of India has had diversity in terms of the language, the attire, the features, the food habits, kingdoms.

Yet, there always has been a common thread which is connecting the people of this land - and that is the philosophy, the culture, the religion.

Irrespective of the number of rulers, the Vedas, the epics like Ramayana, Mahabharatha, Upanishads, Gita, Bhagavatham, are revered throughout the land of India. The Bhagavad Gita shlokas recited by a Kashmiri pandit are the same as the shlokas recited by a Sreevaishnava in Tamilnadu
Irrespective of the number of princely states, the idea of Dharma (righteous duties), Artha (prosperity), Kaama(satisfying the desires), Moksha (attaining one’s real spiritual identity) has been the guiding principles of the people.

Mathura, Vrindavan, Dwarka, Puri, Kasi, Haridwar, Badarinath, Kedarnath, Amarnath, Rameswaram had been revered across India, irrespective of the king ruling it.

Cauvery originates in and flows through what was previously the Mysore kingdom. Did only the people of Mysore kingdom revere Cauvery? Irrespective of whether the person was in the kingdom of Junagadh or in Travancore or in Kashmir, they used to chant the below shloka while taking bath.

"गंगे च यमुने चैव गोदावरि सरस्वति ।
नर्मदे सिंधु कावेरि जलेऽस्मिन् सन्निधिं कुरु - Briha

O rivers Ganga, Yamuna, Godavari, Saraswati, Narmada, Sindhu and Kaveri, please enrich the water I am bathing with, with your presence

Kingdoms might come and go. States might unify or split. But the idea of a nation is not just the political structure, but the culture and the philosophy of the land - that is a greater unifier than the lines drawn by kings and politicians.

So India has existed long before the British stepped unto it. India has existed as an entity for thousands of years because of the people following the common culture of the land. So the idea of the British unifying India is simply out of the picture.

The credit for the political unification of India should go not to the British but to the iron man Sardar Vallabh Bhai Patel.

Edit 1: Added the reference to Christopher Columbus. thanks MEENU RAJPUT (मीनू राजपूत)

Added the reference to Megasthenes and his book Indica.

Edit 2: Corrected Megasthenes’s visit from Gupta period to Chandragupta Maurya as correctly pointed out by Harsha Kanekal.

Edit 3. Added the reference to Chinna Jeeyar Swami’s explanation on the origin of the term Bharathavarsha

Edit 4: A few were responding that in the lines that at least politically the British created India. I do not subscribe to this view either.

When the British decided to leave, they gave the option to the princely states either to join India, or Pakistan or even remain independent. While some fell in line quickly, there were tough nuts to crack like the Nizam who refused to join the Indian union. Sardar Patel had to use the tricks of saam, daam, dand, bhed to persuade the princes to join the Indian union. So why would we want to give credit to the Britishers for having “created India”.

Footnotes

[1] Mughal Empire - Wikipedia

[2] Megasthenes - Wikipedia

[3] ‘Why is our land called ‘Bharatha Khanda’ and not ‘Rama Khanda’?


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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Kashi » 07 Nov 2019 10:45

Primus wrote:Great question Kashi Ji.

Let me reverse it and ask you what would YOU do in my situation? You were born in one country but have spent a longer time living in another, which has fed you, given you the clothes on your back and a roof over your head. Your children have grown up here and know no other life. What would you do under the circumstances?

What does your conscience and Dharma require of you? Would you consider Karna a traitor to the Pandavas for fighting on the side of the Kauravas?


First of all PrimusJi (and other members who chipped in with their thoughts), thanks very much for replying to my query.

I would like to say, it's difficult for me to imagine what I would do in YOUR situation, because I do not find myself in such a situation. I am an Indian citizen with an Indian passport so such conflicting feelings perhaps do not arise.

Invoking the situation of Karna is not quite ingenuous in this case, because the two situations are not even remotely comparable.

Unlike, Karna, folks in your situation did not grow up without the knowledge of your true heritage or your true lineage. As far as Karna knew, he was a soot-putra and he like his Pandav brothers were completely unaware of the relationship between them. He was mocked for his status and Duryodhan stood up for him and embraced him as an equal.

Karna told Kunti as much when he berated her for discarding him "to humiliation, without family, class, and honour, and without a mother’s eye over [him]". He went on to say "Mother, I am the son of a charioteer, and Radha is my mother. There is no greater glory for me than this."

He went on to add "If I sever the ties that bind me to the lord of the Kurus and run towards the sovereign throne then shame on me!"

He rightly pointed out that the only ties he ever knew, were to the parents who raised him, his aacharya Parushram who taught him (and cursed him) and to the Kurus.

Can you truly claim that YOUR situation is anyway similar to Karna? Were you and your discarded by Mother India "to humiliation, without family, class, and honour, and without a mother’s eye" over you?

I am sorry, but this is a case of false equivalence.

Dharma requires, nay, demands loyalty to the Karmabhumi before anything else. At least that is how I see it.


I always thought Dharma required you to hold Dharma above everything else. Even if it meant standing upto your kith and kin when you perceive that they have strayed from the path of Dharma.

Didn't many Americans fight against fellow Americans and sacrificed themselves during the civil war?

Didn't many Germans fight against the Nazis and gave up their lives?

Didn't many Indians rise against despots and rulers time and time again, despite inhabiting the same Karmabhoomi?

You said

Perhaps for us Americans it maybe a little easier since there has never been direct conflict between the country of our birth and that of our adoption.


I believe each and every one of us is familiar with the Task Force 74 incident during the Bangladesh liberation war of 1971. Now let me ask you a question. Now allow me ask you a question. What would YOU do in such a situation when your "adopted land", your Karmabhoomi is on the brink of waging a war against your Pitrabhoomi? Does your understanding of Dharma still require you to display absolute and unquestioned loyalty to your Karmabhoomi in this case?

Thanks very much for your consideration.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Manish_P » 07 Nov 2019 11:26

Kashi wrote:I always thought Dharma required you to hold Dharma above everything else. Even if it meant standing upto your kith and kin when you perceive that they have strayed from the path of Dharma.


Such a clear cut definition and yet so tough for most of us to comprehend and tougher still to live up to.

So many of us, either in ignorance or in arrogance, mistake Karma to be Dharma.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Nov 2019 16:45

I feel that everyone should be loyal to the country whose Citizen they are, but should also stick to the truth.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Primus » 07 Nov 2019 18:12

Kashi Ji, this will be my last on this as I will be unable to use the internet for a few days.

I agree, it is very difficult for you to put yourself in my shoes but only when you are in my shoes could you truthfully understand where I am coming from and be able to answer my question.

In my own view, my Dharma is as I said, loyalty to the country that has fed me and and my family for the major portion of my life. Karna was unaware of his birth, yes, but even when he was made aware, he continued to side with those that had nurtured him. It does not matter whether one leaves his country of birth voluntarily or involuntarily (as in if your parents take you with them when you are young and unable to make the decision yourself), or whether your 'pitrabhumi' has treated you well or not. One could argue that I did not find the 'right job' in India or that I was discriminated against due to caste issues and so on, but I will not use those excuses.

What is Dharma? IMHO, it is do what one feels deep in your heart is the right thing, the fair thing, to listen to the voice of your conscience - to do your Duty if you will, that is how I have tried to live my life. I have not read any books on philosophy or had a guru to tell me what it is. Yes, Dharma may mean upholding Dharma, but in my situation what exactly is that? That is the question I asked of you but you conveniently excused yourself by saying you are an Indian citizen. Which is my point exactly, it is easy for you to avoid the question but the only way we can have an honest discussion is for you to put yourself in my place and see it from my point of view. Before I left India, I too looked upon those who had left the shores as 'betrayers' in a way. It is only when you see it from the other side that you realize things are not so black and white in life.

As far as America and India are concerned I still maintain that the US has never attacked India directly as a government policy. And yes, I too am aware of the Seventh Fleet. I was a young adult then, remember Dhol Ki Pol on Doordharshan Delhi where they would give us updates every day on the war. One famous jingle, if you recall was:

'और अमरीका का सातवाँ बेड़ा जिस पर पाकिस्तान इतना अकड़ रहा है, वो बंगाल की खाड़ी में मछलियाँ पकड़ रहा है''

Your examples of people rising up against oppression within their own land is not applicable here. The situations are completely different. It is not a fight between karmabhumi and pitrabhumi but a fight between factions within the pitrabhumi itself which happens to be one's karmabhumi as well. That is a totally different scenario. You could argue that the naxals or the Khalistanis in India too are fighting against the government for their version of what is right, but I won't go into that now. Americans who fought in the Civil war believed their own Dharrma dictated their actions, many in the South still believe their cause was just.

Do you honestly believe every German soldier who fought for the Fatherland was a Nazi? For him, at the time, Dharma dictated his loyalty be to his own country and its leaders, even if it was the wrong fight. Was every soldier in the Kaurava army an adharrmi because he was not fighting for the right cause?

Pardon me, but it is easy to claim your own version of truth is supreme and your way is the right way, but life is not always that easily defined. I know, have lived long enough. My version of what I perceive to be my Duty (Dharma) is very obvious to me, even though I may not have the ability to explain it clearly here.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Manish_P » 07 Nov 2019 18:43

Primus ji. Tying 'Dharma' to (or within) geographical boundaries and personal perceptions is where it will always create confusion. You yourself mentioned that inner conscience let's one know what is right and what is wrong.

It is when one knowingly sides with the wrong because of your loyalty/obligations/debt of gratitude (which you mistakenly attribute as 'personal dharma') to the wrong doer, that one fails to uphold Dharma.

Karma (ones actions/deeds) is personal.

Dharma is never personal. It transcends boundaries and is universal.

I have not read any books on philosophy as such nor had any teachers/guru. My old grandmother told me once when I tried to read the Mahabharata as a story book, to understand first what is right and what is wrong otherwise the Mahabharata will be just a story about the property dispute of a family.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Haresh » 07 Nov 2019 19:09

Manish_P wrote:My old grandmother told me once when I tried to read the Mahabharata as a story book, to understand first what is right and what is wrong otherwise the Mahabharata will be just a story about the property dispute of a family.


I have just started reading it.
I can tell you it is one of the most facsinating books I have ever read. I had to spend about 3-5 months researching before I actually started reading it.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Primus » 07 Nov 2019 19:15

I have about half an hour more I'm told....

Manish Ji, I quite understand what you are saying. However, the definition of right and wrong is never so easy. In my case, my conscience tells me to fight for the country that I am now a Citizen of and that is what is upholding my Dharma IMHO. It is not a geographical boundary or a personal perception. Again, coming back to 'loyalty', would you believe all Kaurava soldiers were adharmi? They were on the wrong side in terms of fairness, no? Were all the great ones on the Kaurava side - Bhishma and all adharmi? What if Krishna had seen Duryodhana first instead of Arjun when he woke up and agreed to be on his side? Would that make him a sinner too?

And yes, I too take the Mahabharata as not just a story but a lesson in life - in so many ways.

And no, I am not confused at all about what my Duty is. Like I said, you have to be in my shoes to understand this.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Zynda » 07 Nov 2019 19:23

Be true to your citizenship...either the natural one or acquired intentionally. No use torturing one self about the sense of dual loyalties. I always say that treat your former country of birth as a distant cousin i.e. keep tabs on it with well intention but allegiance & loyalties should be towards your current nation.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Manish_P » 07 Nov 2019 19:26

^^ Sincerely wish you the best, Haresh Ji.

I read it the first time 25 years ago. Since then i have read it (in parts) several times. I am still doing my best to understand it. As i went through my life, i felt that different parts of it were more relatable to me. But every time i jus couldnt let go of a nagging feeling that what i just read was illusory or that something deeper was being missed by me. It was only when i removed the personas (the 'characters' if you will) and looked only at the actions that i realized just how much out of my depth i was (and still am).

Anyway for me it has been as much a journey of self-discovery as of a search of righteousness. I hope it will be a good enlightening and enriching experience for you too.

</OT>

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Rsatchi » 07 Nov 2019 19:34

Kashi wrote:
Primus wrote:Great question Kashi Ji.

Let me reverse it and ask you what would YOU do in my situation? You were born in one country but have spent a longer time living in another, which has fed you, given you the clothes on your back and a roof over your head. Your children have grown up here and know no other life. What would you do under the circumstances?

What does your conscience and Dharma require of you? Would you consider Karna a traitor to the Pandavas for fighting on the side of the Kauravas?


First of all PrimusJi (and other members who chipped in with their thoughts), thanks very much for replying to my query.

I would like to say, it's difficult for me to imagine what I would do in YOUR situation, because I do not find myself in such a situation. I am an Indian citizen with an Indian passport so such conflicting feelings perhaps do not arise.

Invoking the situation of Karna is not quite ingenuous in this case, because the two situations are not even remotely comparable.

Unlike, Karna, folks in your situation did not grow up without the knowledge of your true heritage or your true lineage. As far as Karna knew, he was a soot-putra and he like his Pandav brothers were completely unaware of the relationship between them. He was mocked for his status and Duryodhan stood up for him and embraced him as an equal.

Karna told Kunti as much when he berated her for discarding him "to humiliation, without family, class, and honour, and without a mother’s eye over [him]". He went on to say "Mother, I am the son of a charioteer, and Radha is my mother. There is no greater glory for me than this."

He went on to add "If I sever the ties that bind me to the lord of the Kurus and run towards the sovereign throne then shame on me!"

He rightly pointed out that the only ties he ever knew, were to the parents who raised him, his aacharya Parushram who taught him (and cursed him) and to the Kurus.

Can you truly claim that YOUR situation is anyway similar to Karna? Were you and your discarded by Mother India "to humiliation, without family, class, and honour, and without a mother’s eye" over you?

I am sorry, but this is a case of false equivalence.

Dharma requires, nay, demands loyalty to the Karmabhumi before anything else. At least that is how I see it.


I always thought Dharma required you to hold Dharma above everything else. Even if it meant standing upto your kith and kin when you perceive that they have strayed from the path of Dharma.

Didn't many Americans fight against fellow Americans and sacrificed themselves during the civil war?

Didn't many Germans fight against the Nazis and gave up their lives?

Didn't many Indians rise against despots and rulers time and time again, despite inhabiting the same Karmabhoomi?

You said

Perhaps for us Americans it maybe a little easier since there has never been direct conflict between the country of our birth and that of our adoption.


I believe each and every one of us is familiar with the Task Force 74 incident during the Bangladesh liberation war of 1971. Now let me ask you a question. Now allow me ask you a question. What would YOU do in such a situation when your "adopted land", your Karmabhoomi is on the brink of waging a war against your Pitrabhoomi? Does your understanding of Dharma still require you to display absolute and unquestioned loyalty to your Karmabhoomi in this case?

Thanks very much for your consideration.

Kashiji and Primusji
I just wanted to bring your attention to the incarceration/internment of Jap-Americans during the second world war
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... JP9FKpsUZV
And also what the Brishits did to the Eyetalians
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... y4Trtmwm0n
It is also during these times what the majority/state feels about the minority
Yes no direct conflict between US of A and Bharatmata but what if there is?? and what would happen to all the Doctor-log in US of A

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Manish_P » 07 Nov 2019 19:42

Primus wrote:I have about half an hour more I'm told....

Manish Ji, I quite understand what you are saying. However, the definition of right and wrong is never so easy. In my case, my conscience tells me to fight for the country that I am now a Citizen of and that is what is upholding my Dharma IMHO. It is not a geographical boundary or a personal perception. Again, coming back to 'loyalty', would you believe all Kaurava soldiers were adharmi? They were on the wrong side in terms of fairness, no? Were all the great ones on the Kaurava side - Bhishma and all adharmi? What if Krishna had seen Duryodhana first instead of Arjun when he woke up and agreed to be on his side? Would that make him a sinner too?

And yes, I too take the Mahabharata as not just a story but a lesson in life - in so many ways.

And no, I am not confused at all about what my Duty is. Like I said, you have to be in my shoes to understand this.


I do not claim in any way to be right (let alone righteous)

Just that every one naturally/instinctively prioritizes his 'kartavya' viz Duty.

The problem arises when one perceives his own 'Kartavya' as 'Dharma'

I cannot (and since it is OT to this thread) explain it more. Thank you.

zynda wrote:Be true to your citizenship...either the natural one or acquired intentionally. No use torturing one self about the sense of dual loyalties.


That is the easier and convenient (not to mention practical) way - of not getting into personal trouble.
I am not the judge one way or the other. However i am equally aware that this forum is named 'Bharat-Rakshak'. :)

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby vishvak » 07 Nov 2019 20:08

In practical terms wrt wars Indian community viz NRI population would come at lower end of aggression, even for information warfare. Hence not possible for dharmic community to be a threat.

As far as Karna is concerned, there is an entire episode of Mahabharata serial where krishna tries to convince karna about changing side to dharmic and his past misdeeds, and nothing else, comes in the way.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby zoverian » 07 Nov 2019 21:57

I am a NRI living in Singapore. For me as of now Singapore is my Karmbhumi! My Matrbhumi is my beloved country “Bharat”. . “I always thought Dharma required you to hold Dharma above everything else” This is so true. Dharma is eternal. All karmas should be directed towards eternal Dharma. People who do not do that would end up like Karna, Dron, or Bhisma”. If any given day if the conflict situation arises then will simply stand with my Matarbhumi.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby sanjaykumar » 08 Nov 2019 05:17

Image


The great master of tiresome prolix gibberish, Churchill, perhaps meant to refer to the past of the British in India, or perhaps the future of the British in Britain.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby mmasand » 08 Nov 2019 07:14

This is absolute gold! Jezza is dangerous for the country and its foreign policy, he flirts with the Hamas and Hezbollah, parrots the Kremlin line in the aftermath of Salisbury.


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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Vips » 08 Nov 2019 22:19

Looks like Philby had many b a s t a r d s from multiple women who have now all joined Labor Party in Englishstan.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Rsatchi » 08 Nov 2019 22:41

Vips wrote:Looks like Philby had many b a s t a r d s from multiple women who have now all joined Labor Party in Englishstan.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Vipsji
There is used to be a saying that in Oxbride you joined : Hallelujah Gang/Buggery Gang/Sport team/Leftist gang
Now was he and the other(Burgess, Maclean et al) belonged to the Buggery gang in the days when it was considered crime to be a rear engine driver!!! :lol: :lol:

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Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Peregrine » 13 Nov 2019 02:23

X Posted on the Terroristan Thread

Kashmir: Labour shifts policy after backlash by Indian-heritage voters - Patrick Wintour Diplomatic editor

Move comes after some Indian groups in UK urged supporters to vote Conservative

Labour has responded to a backlash among voters of Indian heritage in the UK by shifting its stance on the Kashmir dispute and insisting it is a bilateral matter between India and Pakistan in which Labour will not interfere.

The clarification has been made in a letter sent by the Labour party chairman, Ian Lavery, in which he admits an emergency motion on Kashmir passed by Labour at its annual conference had caused offence to some British Indians and India itself.

The motion said there was a humanitarian crisis in the disputed territory and that the people of Kashmir should be given the right of self-determination. It also called for international monitors to be allowed into the region.

The motion has led some Indian groups in the UK to call on their community to vote Conservative.

More than 100 Indian groups wrote to Jeremy Corbyn in protest, and more recently the criticism of Labour has spread to social media. There have also been complaints that only one candidate of Indian heritage has been selected in a safe Labour seat, and none in a target seat.


In his letter Lavery promises “the Labour party will not take a pro-Indian or pro-Pakistan stance on Kashmir”.

The latest controversy follows India’s decision in August to revoke the special status of Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir, bringing it under direct rule from Delhi.

India and Pakistan both claim Kashmir, but control only parts of it.

Since August political activity in Indian-administered Kashmir has been repressed, journalists have been refused free access, and NGOs have reported human rights abuses, claims denied by India.

The former UK national security adviser Mark Lyall Grant has predicted rising extremism in the UK unless the issue is settled.

Lyall Grant told a meeting at the security thinktank Chatham House, organised by strategic advisory firm CTD Advisors, that India’s decision to revoke Kashmir’s special status was likely to lead to greater extremism in the region. He said the temptation for the Pakistan intelligence services would be once again to support cross-border militancy, even if the Pakistan civilian authorities opposed such a move.

He said greater extremism in Kashmir would have a direct impact on the UK, adding that 60-70% of British Pakistanis had origins in the Mirpur district in Kashmir. “Therefore there is a risk of radicalisation in this country of British Kashmiris. We all know that diasporas tend to be more radical than communities left behind and I do not see why this should be any different.”

In his letter Lavery wrote: “We are adamant that the deeply felt and genuinely held differences on the issue of Kashmir must not be allowed to divide communities against each other here in the UK.

“Kashmir is a bilateral matter for India and Pakistan to resolve together by means of a peaceful solution, which protects the human rights of the Kashmiri people and respects their right to have a say in their own future.”

Attention will now turn to how Labour words its election manifesto on this issue.

In a sign of the controversy the issue creates inside Labour, the former foreign secretary Jack Straw called on Pakistan to withdraw its claim to Kashmir. Speaking at the same Chatham House event as Lyall Grant, Straw said he was “extremely sympathetic” to the plight of Muslim people in Jammu and Kashmir, and said the actions of India’s prime minister, Narendra Modi, in revoking the state’s special status were “outrageous, preposterous, a complete breach of human rights and without any strategy attached”.

But he continued: “The thing I am clearest about is the way in which the whole of Pakistan’s politics and economics has become distorted in this vain search or attempt to redraw the boundaries of Kashmir and to take Jammu Kashmir into the Pakistan Republic.

“That is completely unobtainable, impossible, but that goal has led to Pakistan sponsoring terrorism across the line of control – without any question, we all know that – and it has also led to a bloated defence spending and disproportionate power to the defence forces of Pakistan.”

He said Pakistan needed to reflect on why its economy had not grown at the same rate as India’s, adding that Pakistan’s state sponsoring of terrorism reduced the country’s diplomatic traction.

He added: “If the ISI [Pakistan’s intelligence services] think the answer to the situation is a bit more terrorism they will be gravely mistaken.”

Under the new arrangement, Jammu and Kashmir is designated one territory, and Ladakh, which borders China, is separate. Almost 98% of the state’s population will be in the territory of Jammu and Kashmir, comprising two regions – the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley, which has about 8 million people, and the Hindu-majority Jammu, which has about 6 million.

Cheers Image

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Rsatchi » 13 Nov 2019 02:35

^^In the same vein should not the BJP or Congress or better still CPI/CPI-M in the National meeting pass a resolution on reuniting NI with the Republic of Ireland
That will cause some serious rethinking wouldn’t it

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Amber G. » 13 Nov 2019 02:58

Peregrine wrote:X Posted on the Terroristan Thread

Kashmir: Labour shifts policy after backlash by Indian-heritage voters - Patrick Wintour Diplomatic editor

Move comes after some Indian groups in UK urged supporters to vote Conservative

[b]Labour has responded to a backlash among voters of Indian heritage in the UK by shifting its stance on the Kashmir dispute and insisting it is a bilateral matter between India and Pakistan in which Labour will not interfere.
<snip>
Image

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Image

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Kashi » 13 Nov 2019 05:05

Dimwits be those who fall for this chicanery.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Bart S » 13 Nov 2019 06:26

Kashi wrote:Dimwits be those who fall for this chicanery.


Yes, it looks like the Paki lady who sponsored the vile labour resolution has been given a big role in the party, a promotion of sorts. So there is clearly no change in direction.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Nov 2019 06:34

That is the most vile equal-equal garbage I have read, and that is saying something because I read HiC's mouthings as well. :twisted: Desis should make 100% sure that the Labor Party is sent to the pakistan.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby mmasand » 13 Nov 2019 07:01

Bart S wrote:
Kashi wrote:Dimwits be those who fall for this chicanery.


Yes, it looks like the Paki lady who sponsored the vile labour resolution has been given a big role in the party, a promotion of sorts. So there is clearly no change in direction.


Let's be realistic here, how many marginal constituencies hold a swing strong enough for Indians to play spoilt sport for Labour.
And expecting Indians to switch from Labour to Tory over an issue they are emotive about, but doesn't have any change in ground realities?

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Kashi » 13 Nov 2019 07:06

UlanBatori wrote:That is the most vile equal-equal garbage I have read, and that is saying something because I read HiC's mouthings as well. :twisted: Desis should make 100% sure that the Labor Party is sent to the pakistan.


That is called wishful thinking. Only the other day the same reports that spoke of some Indian-origin folks canvassing against New Labour, also spoke of others who spoke about Brexit (that New Labour is also supporting), among others as their main priority and how the Labour stand on J&K and India didn't really matter to them. So expecting UK-desis to unite en masse against Labour on this issue would be living in a fool's paradise. Do remember, the INC Overseas wing drawn from the same desis happily called upon and posed for photo-op with Jeremy Corbyn.

We are also witnessing attempts to downplay these actions, either by labelling them as election rhetoric and money-driven or by lip-service (such as the "letter" above).

As we've seen with Indian-American viewpoints expressed in the US thread, UK-desis have their own world-view, concerns and priorities and it should be accepted that India, Indian interests and Indo-UK relations may not necessarily feature in the upper echelons of those.

A case in example.

mmasand wrote:Let's be realistic here, how many marginal constituencies hold a swing strong enough for Indians to play spoilt sport for Labour.
And expecting Indians to switch from Labour to Tory over an issue they are emotive about, but doesn't have any change in ground realities?

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Kashi » 13 Nov 2019 07:40

And right on cue

British Indians warn Hindu nationalist party not to meddle in UK elections

[T]he Guardian visited the north-west London suburb of Harrow on Monday, home to the highest density of Gujarati Hindus in the UK, people criticised the BJP’s involvement.

“They don’t have to interfere in the politics here,” said Suresh Morjaria, a 67-year-old shopkeeper. “They can do what they want in India. I am happy for them to do what they want with [Indian prime minister Narendra] Modi, but this is a different country.”


Funny, how the same does not (or should not) apply to New Labour.

Harrow is an obvious target for the BJP, given that 26.4% of the population in the area are British Indians, according to the 2011 census, second only to Leicester. But none of those the Guardian spoke to said they would cast their vote based on UK policy towards India and all rejected BJP interference.

“It’s wrong,” said 34-year-old hairdresser Kamlesh Nayee. He shook his head when it was suggested the BJP were angry over Labour’s stance on the disputed territory of Kashmir. “Labour is good,” he said. “I got my [British] passport under Labour. They helped me, they understand.”

He was not the only one to cite other issues as being closer to his heart. Jemma, 25, a youth worker who did not wish to give her second name, said: “Education is important. I’ve got a lot of young people [I’m working with] from the EU who are being penalised [by Brexit uncertainty].”

She also worried about the impact of the BJP support group’s WhatsApp messages . “Everyone in my family from the old generation doesn’t understand it and they’re very affected by what they received so I have tried to block them on my mum’s phone.”


It does seem that some feathers have been ruffled.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Nov 2019 07:53

The Labor cretin's thesis is that 90% of Paki-Brishits are "Mirpuri" and they are getting more extremistized. Well... beat the crap out of them, hain? Why harass peaceful, law-abiding people to appease these terrorists?

So the point is that in the UQ, the Chamberlain Lobby is dominant. Appease the Pakis. Appease the ISIS. Wonder why they don't move to Paris so they can join the Frogs in surrendering to every 2-bit thug. Like the Royal Marines had to surrender to the Lollipop Boys in Sierra Leone. :lol:

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby A_Gupta » 13 Nov 2019 09:20

^^^ winning elections has become more important than any principles.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Deans » 13 Nov 2019 11:06

The debate with Primus ji, is not really about conflicted loyalties. it about choosing between supporting India or Pak, while being an Indian citizen in the UK - it would be a conflict if the choice was between India and the UK.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby kvraghav » 13 Nov 2019 11:36

Regarding NRI supporting labor, i think it is time to prevent them from buying land in india till they return and settle for more than a year. Such cut in high return investment may win back support to india.


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