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Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 29 Nov 2017 21:13

sanjaykumar wrote:London isWAS the greatest city in the world. BRISHITS Need to face reality.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 30 Nov 2017 07:10

sanjaykumar wrote:London is the greatest city in the world. Need to face reality.


london is the center of a international shadow financial system stretching in rings into offshore territories, tax havens, channel islands
london is the preferred home for all the worlds financial fugitives and their money - russian oligarchs, indian runaways, congolese warlords all find a good home there
london is the preferred home for all indian fugitives. only 1 has been extradited (because he did not contest it) despite a treaty being in place since 1992.
london is the preferred 2nd home / kids parking lot / shopping haunt for our korrupt elites and carpetbaggers

other than that, I dont see what 'strategic value' it brings to the table over say paris or berlin or chicago or tokyo - atleast these nations can help us in manufacturing and high tech. UK is not anymore that big in such depts.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 30 Nov 2017 07:15

<POOF>

in a rare case, a scottish khalistani type visiting india to marry was picked up on charges of funding the murder of hindu leaders in punjab...proceedings are on ...
Last edited by hnair on 30 Nov 2017 10:15, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please be careful in spreading biased Khalistan-pasand articles and their URLs

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby hnair » 30 Nov 2017 10:19

singha, Here is a more balanced view on story, with Indian POVs

Why diaspora Sikhs are fighting to ‘Free Jaggi’


What is Punjab Police saying?
Declining to be quoted on record, Punjab Police officers questioned the “double standards” of UK and Canada on terrorism. “If there is any terror act in their country, they will talk big against terrorism. But, if terror acts are plotted from those countries to target Punjab, they shift the goal posts,” said a senior Punjab police officer.

How is the issue is playing out in Punjab politics?
While the Congress government is unfazed over the mounting pressure from UK and Canada and maintains it has enough proof against Johal, opposition parties Shiromani Akali Dal and Aam Aadmi Party have sought clarification and asked the government to make public the exact role of Johal in the alleged terror plot and targeted killings. SAD’s alliance partner BJP had taken a divergent view, justifying the arrest of Johal, but later a joint delegation of SAD-BJP submitted a memorandum to Vidhan Sabha Speaker seeking a discussion in the Assembly and making public the exact role of Johal that led to his arrest.


Looks like a HM approved gent, probably a MyrShishyan, judging from the loud noises

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Manish_P » 30 Nov 2017 12:03

Singha wrote:[

london is the center of a international shadow financial system stretching in rings into offshore territories, tax havens, channel islands
london is the preferred home for all the worlds financial fugitives and their money - russian oligarchs, indian runaways, congolese warlords all find a good home there
london is the preferred home for all indian fugitives. only 1 has been extradited (because he did not contest it) despite a treaty being in place since 1992.
london is the preferred 2nd home / kids parking lot / shopping haunt for our korrupt elites and carpetbaggers



London is the headquarters of all the political parties of Jihadistan

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Lisa » 30 Nov 2017 14:54

Singha wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:London is the greatest city in the world. Need to face reality.


london is the center of a international shadow financial system stretching in rings into offshore territories, tax havens, channel islands
london is the preferred home for all the worlds financial fugitives and their money - russian oligarchs, indian runaways, congolese warlords all find a good home there
london is the preferred home for all indian fugitives. only 1 has been extradited (because he did not contest it) despite a treaty being in place since 1992.
london is the preferred 2nd home / kids parking lot / shopping haunt for our korrupt elites and carpetbaggers

other than that, I dont see what 'strategic value' it brings to the table over say paris or berlin or chicago or tokyo - atleast these nations can help us in manufacturing and high tech. UK is not anymore that big in such depts.


They do what they need to do to feed, clothe, house and protect their people. They have been and continue to be extraordinarily successful in this endeavor. Visit London some day and you will see what I mean.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby rsingh » 30 Nov 2017 18:26

UK ready to pay up to 40 billion euros to leave EU: Sunday Telegraph: oooops

A country destroyed by tabloids and elusions of grandeur. Brits thought they they can simply say good -by and do separate trade deal with 27 countries. Tabloids and politicians were full of BS. Now they are ready to pay 40 billion but EU bill is almost 50 billion. Not that easy....even Latvia is not ready to do deal.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Lisa » 01 Dec 2017 00:35

The UK pays on average over 13 billion net every year anyway, so what's the big deal with 40 billion? Latvia can go to hell. If its a hard exit UK pays nothing. What will Latvia do then, file a suit, and where? The elephant in the room is the EU budget. UK pays almost 20% of it. What happens when the 40 billion runs out? Latvia will carry the load!

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Dec 2017 01:22

Lisa wrote:They do what they need to do to feed, clothe, house and [b]protect their people[/b]. They have been and continue to be extraordinarily successful in this endeavor. Visit London some day and you will see what I mean.

Picking upon the secure thing: the rape crisis (53% increase as highlighted by googleshwara) is good to prove. Yours truly just missed a mugging in Zone 2 late at night just because the cold was too much to accompany his smoker friend in frigid winter a couple of years back. Agreed such things happen everywhere. But are these the only success critiria? That ways i would say Salt Lake City Utah is most successful city :wink:

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Lisa » 01 Dec 2017 01:32

What other criteria do you have in mind?

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 01 Dec 2017 03:56

Singha wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:London is the greatest city in the world. Need to face reality.


london is the center of a international shadow financial system stretching in rings into offshore territories, tax havens, channel islands
london is the preferred home for all the worlds financial fugitives and their money - russian oligarchs, indian runaways, congolese warlords all find a good home there
london is the preferred home for all indian fugitives. only 1 has been extradited (because he did not contest it) despite a treaty being in place since 1992.
london is the preferred 2nd home / kids parking lot / shopping haunt for our korrupt elites and carpetbaggers

other than that, I dont see what 'strategic value' it brings to the table over say paris or berlin or chicago or tokyo - atleast these nations can help us in manufacturing and high tech. UK is not anymore that big in such depts.

I am posting this as a neutral observer and not because I live here since last decade.
There are number of criterion that makes a good city great. It is not a coincidence that London is no 1 financial centre with more than 600 billion £ trade passing through its wires on a daily basis. Try getting me a fresh russian beluga cavier in any city outside Russia!! If you order that before lunch time, they will have that delivered on your boat moored on Monte Carlo before midnight for party and agents who has this capacity and contacts are only found in London. There is everything that you can think of in terms of eating, drinking, boating on Thames, sky diving, indoor skiing and cultural activities from bhajans to rock concert that you can do. Right from pub where beer is flowing for last 400 years to newest trend in craft wine, beer or whisky or toddy too. Best french food is actually found in London. Transportation to anywhere in the world is few clicks away. There is absolutely no food that you will not find in London or no language which not spoken in London. No sports activities or clubs you can think about that are not present including being a biohacker messing the DNA of a frog to have bioluminescence in its eyes or visiting a library which has oldest books in the world to greatest paintings and science museums. You think of an activity and you will find people doing it and places where to go for it (all sorts exotic including).

I am also surprised by comment on shadow banking system because it is of tiny value to Uk banking system in tune of may be 300 million pound in its contribution to economy and many trading team make this much money on their books every year here.

I actually know hedge fund guys who shifted to zurich and Frankfurt and returned within first 9 months saying those places as dead man's land. It has taken 2000 years for London to be what it is today. I have visited numerous cities in the world but has only probably found New York and Mumbai to match dynamism of London and long term rivals in a way. All others are way too behind.

Fact is all ingredients to make this place great is already present in 100 miles of London 4 out of top 10 universities in the world through to companies which designs processors which are used in 9/10 phones in the world and perhaps best free healthcare in the world - it is dfferent thing that they spend quite a lot and is mismanaged. Most of this is however very well hidden from the world and Britain provides a very blur picture of things and it looks chaotic many times to the outside world.

American presidential candidate at time of London Olympics was appalled that British was in chaos in organising things a week before start date and yet at the time of Olympics till the finish of Paralympics world saw one of the best Olympic organisation to my mind in one third of budget of what Beijing spend four years earlier. He actually commented that it is going to beat Atlanta Olympics in terms of mismanagement and chaos only to be ridiculed by American press and channels who found things completely fine and orderly on the day with clockwork precision.

So as a observer i could say it is a great city not sure about britain as a power but I certainly don't see them disappearing from world scene any sooner however bad they may be doing certain things or you may want to believe so.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Avtar Singh » 01 Dec 2017 04:35

I am a big fan of Britaain, but rest assured I have never drunk anyones or any institutions KoolAid

Britain has nothing to offer India apart from helping america pull the door open and holding it ajar whilst america sneaks into India and establishes East India mk2 via sh#ty of london and balls street.

They have given up all engineering/technical abilities for the FIRE (finacial, insurance, real estate sectors).

why would India give a damn about Londinium being the greatest city on earth, it has nothing to offer India
India should be very careful of the ASE (Anglo Saxon Elites).

India is better off looking to Germany/South Korea/Japan people who still value making hard products

compared to CDS products TBTF and Scosbornes beloved SIFIs...
debt based ever rising stock markets and house prices. 2 things can never be allowed to go down uk house prices and us stock prices (Trump, by his statements, now owns the us stock market).
This is not the kind of sh#t India needs


There was mention of empire 2.0 somewhere...... Forget about Britain,
it is usa that is the bigger danger............
since there seems to be many on here that are, what I would call AKDs (American Koolaid Drinkers).

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Kashi » 01 Dec 2017 05:43

Regardless of merits and demerits of London, we must be only concerned with how any India-UK trade deal benefits India. We must ask ourselves, what is it that we gain out of this trade with UK and is that what we are looking for?

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 01 Dec 2017 06:30

Avtar Singh wrote:I am a big fan of Britaain, but rest assured I have never drunk anyones or any institutions KoolAid

Britain has nothing to offer India apart from helping america pull the door open and holding it ajar whilst america sneaks into India and establishes East India mk2 via sh#ty of london and balls street.

They have given up all engineering/technical abilities for the FIRE (finacial, insurance, real estate sectors).

why would India give a damn about Londinium being the greatest city on earth, it has nothing to offer India
India should be very careful of the ASE (Anglo Saxon Elites).

India is better off looking to Germany/South Korea/Japan people who still value making hard products

compared to CDS products TBTF and Scosbornes beloved SIFIs...
debt based ever rising stock markets and house prices. 2 things can never be allowed to go down uk house prices and us stock prices (Trump, by his statements, now owns the us stock market).
This is not the kind of sh#t India needs


There was mention of empire 2.0 somewhere...... Forget about Britain,
it is usa that is the bigger danger............
since there seems to be many on here that are, what I would call AKDs (American Koolaid Drinkers).

Well this is exactly what Britain wants you to believe that it cannot make hard products.
Whereas it makes all aircraft, submarine, aircraft carrier, missiles, trains, steel in-house not to mention formula one cars, luxury brands like Aston Martin and passenger jet engines like rolls Royce Trent. It has 4 best science and technical educational institutions of top ten in the world and more than 20 in top 500. So thinking that british do not have engineering talent is utter foolishness because everyone else from the world comes here to study them. I also don't know the fetish of making hard products Vs having a company like Facebook which can suck revenue from all over the world in your nation and pay taxes equivalent to 50 forging companies!!! You don't seemingly get the idea that 5 top guys writing code in garage resulting in Google forming a trillion dollar company are more important than Maruti Suzuki employing half a million people. For you Maruti Suzuki is more valuable than Google it seems. Just like that the guy inventing graphene and university holding patent for revenue generated from every product made from graphene being less valuable than companies producing it. It takes a massive dose of optimism to believe that a nation which built, concorde, channel tunnel and builds biggest wind turbines in the world has suddenly lost technical edge simply because it channelled it's talent into FIRE for two decades. I can guarantee if there is a hard brexit it will take less than 5 year for Britain to roll out its first passenger jet to compete with airbus and Boeing in world markets. It has designs in place and it is already good in engines so it should not be huge effort anyway. I guess you might not believe in GCHQ prowess either who are the only agency to had technical capabilities to break voip encryption which not even nsa did. They send out challenge every year if anyone who can solve their computing and numerical puzzle gets a job. Not many people I believe are able to solve it and those who do are working in their cyber defense with room full of these nerds around. European union is dreading this because Theresa may did mention that security cooperation is vital to hint that EU capacity to counter terrorism will be greatly diminished if uk pulls plug out of power in the field.

Why do people choose London to raise money then from international money market including Indian rupee denominated bonds if they don't believe in UK law system? Fact is London money market is deepest in the world and everyone in the trade knows about it. Rather than dismissing things it is better to have a relationship where India will be winner than looking back at history and fuming about it. It was past and so was other 84 nations including parts of America which were once British colony too. Everyone has moved past and we should too and embrace things which are better for our next generation.

Well perhaps you are free to think whatever you like but India will be beneficiary in brexit and we should approach this with open mind. We will loose pie because whatever India can export to Britain can be easily replaced by any other nations on earth. On the other hand there is nothing that India can really import from uk because it will be way to expensive anyway and we can offer to make them in India. Only thing Britain is interested in is markets of India in 20 years time when we will be much more developed nation and deep pockets go buy anything UK can offer.

Japanese and Germans are simply investing in India so that they can pay for their rapidly ageing population and nothing out of love for our culture. It is hard calculation but fact is there are no friends or enemies just national interests. I rest my case here because otherwise I shall be branded British advocate whereas I am just trying to clear some misconceptions.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Kashi » 01 Dec 2017 07:01

Likewise, what Britain can offer to India can be easily obtained from elsewhere
Steel tech? Japan and Korea do it as well if not better.
Aircraft? France, Germany and US and even Japan and Korea and Russia make them now and not "will do so after Brexit".
Aircraft carrier? We are making our own.
Cars? Once again Japanese and Germans and even Koreans do it far better. What are we going to do with Aston Martins when we already have Jaguar and Land Rover and yet it's difficult to assess how these acquisitions have helped Tata build better cars.
Railways? Japan is far ahead of UK in the train, so much so that Hitachi is supplying the trainsets for UKs proposed HS2 and also the existing Javelins. More importantly, Japanese have been willing to help out with our Railway infrastructural projects. What has UK offered?
Universities? UK has outstanding ones, so do US, Japan and Germany among others.

On top of it, countries such as Japan and Korea (to an extent even the French) do not suffer from the preachiness, condescension and verbal diarrhoea that inflicts British Politicos and elite, especially when it comes to India (Germans do to an extent).

So what is it that Britain exclusively offers us that we cannot get from elsewhere?

As you said, they are only interested in our markets and on the other hand you say that it's too expensive for us to import from them. And they surely will not part with their technological crown jewels. Nor have they shown any inclination to fund and invest in our infrastructure projects like Japan and Korea have.

The question is what should we aim for when we do agree to this trade deal- what can we realistically get out of Britain?

Ashish Raval your views would be most welcome.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Arjun » 01 Dec 2017 07:13

Simple...any trade negotiations are to be based on how big of a potential market they are to us and how much immigration they will allow! And that is the current stance on all negotiations anyway.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 01 Dec 2017 07:18

I agree with ashish raval about the question of truly understanding London. They, London in particular, are a center of capitalism . They have 500 years of accumulated wealth that’s been compounding and growing . Together with that, they have a system that pragmatically lets them grow that wealth and maintain their influence by being a source of capital and business influence. Until Brexit, they parlayed that well to be the gateway to Europe .

Even if businesses move out, there aren’t too many good alternatives . The French really don’t have a system to make it work . Neither do the Germans . The Dutch come closest . But all are still more heavily stakeholder driven (ie worker friendly) rather than shareholder driven - the Anglo-Saxon approach of US and UK.

What do they offer India ? Well, there are three things associated with capitalism - capital, goods and labor . What we need are:
- inbound capital
- outbound labor
What they seek is
- outbound goods

There’s a fundamental disconnect as a result . We would like them to put their money here and accept our workforce . Neither is their priority . They want access to our market for their goods . In this regard they’re not so interesting . Last time I checked, UK was the 18th or 20th largest trading partner of India . Even Singapore, Kuwait and Belgium rank higher .

So I expect nothing to happen . They are useful to us if we can parlay the deal to squeeze capital - most of which was ours simply being grabbed back - out of them , and force our labor down their throat .

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 01 Dec 2017 08:02

acid test is if they will invest in the blr-mumbai industrial corridor as was touted a while ago. japan is investing in 2 corridors.

baki they can take their caviar and wine and return to the chalk cliffs.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 01 Dec 2017 08:45

Its unlikely to happen because their capital plays are short term equity moves in the typical Anglo-Saxon shareholder focused manner chasing quarterly gains . Not long term investments sunk into fixed assets, as we want . Our task is to force that out of them , the way China forced western capital to be sunk into fixed assets at home.

On labor, well post Brexit UK is reflexively anti-immigrant .

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Karthik S » 01 Dec 2017 08:58

ashish raval wrote:
Avtar Singh wrote:I am a big fan of Britaain, but rest assured I have never drunk anyones or any institutions KoolAid

Britain has nothing to offer India apart from helping america pull the door open and holding it ajar whilst america sneaks into India and establishes East India mk2 via sh#ty of london and balls street.

They have given up all engineering/technical abilities for the FIRE (finacial, insurance, real estate sectors).

why would India give a damn about Londinium being the greatest city on earth, it has nothing to offer India
India should be very careful of the ASE (Anglo Saxon Elites).

India is better off looking to Germany/South Korea/Japan people who still value making hard products

compared to CDS products TBTF and Scosbornes beloved SIFIs...
debt based ever rising stock markets and house prices. 2 things can never be allowed to go down uk house prices and us stock prices (Trump, by his statements, now owns the us stock market).
This is not the kind of sh#t India needs


There was mention of empire 2.0 somewhere...... Forget about Britain,
it is usa that is the bigger danger............
since there seems to be many on here that are, what I would call AKDs (American Koolaid Drinkers).

Well this is exactly what Britain wants you to believe that it cannot make hard products.
Whereas it makes all aircraft, submarine, aircraft carrier, missiles, trains, steel in-house not to mention formula one cars, luxury brands like Aston Martin and passenger jet engines like rolls Royce Trent. It has 4 best science and technical educational institutions of top ten in the world and more than 20 in top 500. So thinking that british do not have engineering talent is utter foolishness because everyone else from the world comes here to study them. I also don't know the fetish of making hard products Vs having a company like Facebook which can suck revenue from all over the world in your nation and pay taxes equivalent to 50 forging companies!!! You don't seemingly get the idea that 5 top guys writing code in garage resulting in Google forming a trillion dollar company are more important than Maruti Suzuki employing half a million people. For you Maruti Suzuki is more valuable than Google it seems. Just like that the guy inventing graphene and university holding patent for revenue generated from every product made from graphene being less valuable than companies producing it. It takes a massive dose of optimism to believe that a nation which built, concorde, channel tunnel and builds biggest wind turbines in the world has suddenly lost technical edge simply because it channelled it's talent into FIRE for two decades. I can guarantee if there is a hard brexit it will take less than 5 year for Britain to roll out its first passenger jet to compete with airbus and Boeing in world markets. It has designs in place and it is already good in engines so it should not be huge effort anyway. I guess you might not believe in GCHQ prowess either who are the only agency to had technical capabilities to break voip encryption which not even nsa did. They send out challenge every year if anyone who can solve their computing and numerical puzzle gets a job. Not many people I believe are able to solve it and those who do are working in their cyber defense with room full of these nerds around. European union is dreading this because Theresa may did mention that security cooperation is vital to hint that EU capacity to counter terrorism will be greatly diminished if uk pulls plug out of power in the field.

Why do people choose London to raise money then from international money market including Indian rupee denominated bonds if they don't believe in UK law system? Fact is London money market is deepest in the world and everyone in the trade knows about it. Rather than dismissing things it is better to have a relationship where India will be winner than looking back at history and fuming about it. It was past and so was other 84 nations including parts of America which were once British colony too. Everyone has moved past and we should too and embrace things which are better for our next generation.

Well perhaps you are free to think whatever you like but India will be beneficiary in brexit and we should approach this with open mind. We will loose pie because whatever India can export to Britain can be easily replaced by any other nations on earth. On the other hand there is nothing that India can really import from uk because it will be way to expensive anyway and we can offer to make them in India. Only thing Britain is interested in is markets of India in 20 years time when we will be much more developed nation and deep pockets go buy anything UK can offer.

Japanese and Germans are simply investing in India so that they can pay for their rapidly ageing population and nothing out of love for our culture. It is hard calculation but fact is there are no friends or enemies just national interests. I rest my case here because otherwise I shall be branded British advocate whereas I am just trying to clear some misconceptions.


What's with this deep admiration of past invaders and colonizers. How many of London's landmarks were built using Indian money? How India is talked about in BBC? How much Indian students are welcomed in those top univs? I know how we are treated in UQ, why creamy layer from India prefers US univs? All shady people seek refuge there, quarter of London is owned by the Arabs anyway, as one of my prof said, they let rich come to London to keep it's glory high.
FYKI, Germans and Japanese invest 3 times the money that your dear UQ does, but they don't preach us on anything, with I was your past "lord" kinda attitude. Their investment is far more efficient in creating jobs.

All your post is about how UQ is great, we know that's why it's called "Great" Britain. But what do we get from all those greatness is the question here, and I don't see an answer. In 20 years time, all those you mentioned that UQ has to offer would probably be made in India itself, except may be aerospace industry.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Karthik S » 01 Dec 2017 09:03

Singha wrote:acid test is if they will invest in the blr-mumbai industrial corridor as was touted a while ago. japan is investing in 2 corridors.

baki they can take their caviar and wine and return to the chalk cliffs.


As Suraj said, US and UK are more into quick returns, basically it has to do with cultures, Japan and Germany are mostly bank based economies whereas US and UK are market based. Therefore, the former will be happy to invest in long term projects that will have steady cash flow. I don't see any country giving the loan that Japanese gave us for the HSR.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Hari Seldon » 01 Dec 2017 09:51

Seems FoE in UKstan is under attack. A female right-leaning wannabe politico got charged & arrested for 'criticizing islam'. She appealed on twiter to Trump for help.

Trump actually responded by retweeting 3 of her 'offending' tweets. Theresa May jumped into the fray finger-waggin' sayig doing such was 'wrong'. Lol, like the Trumpanzee cares. Here's what he said:
Image

And there's a lot more. Seems:
The cold reality is that May's country is indeed -- per an official statement from her administration, even -- overrun with tens of thousands of radical Islamists and hundreds of former ISIS fighters. The stunning admission came recently from British intelligence, and was then confirmed by UK Home Secretary Amber Rudd. They had identified a staggering 23,000 radical Islamists in the UK who could potentially conduct terror attacks.

Col. Richard Kemp, former chairman of the Cobra Intelligence Group that briefed the British government on secret intelligence, told BBC Newsnight that the 23,000 jihadists MI5 officials have publicly admitted to living in the UK "may be the tip of the iceberg"...


Well, the jihardons and the brishits totally deserve each other. Couldn't happen to nicer people, besides. Lol.

More here.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby sanjaykumar » 01 Dec 2017 10:43

Some clear headed posts on Londinium. Good to see such analysis. Last but certainly not least, London has adapted to the deluge of immigrants from empire and east Europe. This adaptability can only be appreciated when one is acquainted with Enoch Powell or the Southall police actions of the eighties. That is there is an effort evident to inclusivity. No doubt made easier for the British to swallow post-empire, loss of relative national standing etc.

And again it is London that is the world’s greatest city, not to be conflated with Britain being the world’s greatest nation.

London probably boasts more resident Nobel laureates than any other. I have seen 5000 year old cuneiform tablets and the oldest printed book (a Buddhist text) as well as Newton’s tomb and Darwin’s walking stick all in the same day. Much of the artefacts looted no doubt. But you can buy Captain Cook’s 18 th century voyages as well as an exquite samosa in the same neighbourhood.

A man who is tired of London is indeed tired of life.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Mort Walker » 01 Dec 2017 11:25

In most recent times the UK has documented ripping off India during WWII at the rate 1 million pound sterling a day for 6 years. They owe India reparations with interest and inflation. It is with schadenfreude pleasure to watch Trump tell the Britshits off.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Hari Seldon » 01 Dec 2017 13:21

^ I love the contempt the PRC reserves for UKstan.

It comes from being well-studied in history and every cheeni schoolchild there knows about the opium wars and the 'Chinese century of humiliation'.

The Brits were never our friends. I'm amazed even today at Indians quoting that genocidal maniac Churchill like he's A-OK. Chaps have no clue about the Bengal famine Churchillum engineered on our people.

Unless our history books show the warts and all of the Brishit empire - those haunting B&W photographs of starving Indian families - just like we have all cigarette packets in India nowadays plastered with grotesque oral cancer pictures, the younger generation would go on believing the Brishits were A-OK and all. Only. Sigh.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 01 Dec 2017 14:51

Karthik S wrote:
ashish raval wrote:Well this is exactly what Britain wants you to believe that it cannot make hard products.
Whereas it makes all aircraft, submarine, aircraft carrier, missiles, trains, steel in-house not to mention formula one cars, luxury brands like Aston Martin and passenger jet engines like rolls Royce Trent. It has 4 best science and technical educational institutions of top ten in the world and more than 20 in top 500. So thinking that british do not have engineering talent is utter foolishness because everyone else from the world comes here to study them. I also don't know the fetish of making hard products Vs having a company like Facebook which can suck revenue from all over the world in your nation and pay taxes equivalent to 50 forging companies!!! You don't seemingly get the idea that 5 top guys writing code in garage resulting in Google forming a trillion dollar company are more important than Maruti Suzuki employing half a million people. For you Maruti Suzuki is more valuable than Google it seems. Just like that the guy inventing graphene and university holding patent for revenue generated from every product made from graphene being less valuable than companies producing it. It takes a massive dose of optimism to believe that a nation which built, concorde, channel tunnel and builds biggest wind turbines in the world has suddenly lost technical edge simply because it channelled it's talent into FIRE for two decades. I can guarantee if there is a hard brexit it will take less than 5 year for Britain to roll out its first passenger jet to compete with airbus and Boeing in world markets. It has designs in place and it is already good in engines so it should not be huge effort anyway. I guess you might not believe in GCHQ prowess either who are the only agency to had technical capabilities to break voip encryption which not even nsa did. They send out challenge every year if anyone who can solve their computing and numerical puzzle gets a job. Not many people I believe are able to solve it and those who do are working in their cyber defense with room full of these nerds around. European union is dreading this because Theresa may did mention that security cooperation is vital to hint that EU capacity to counter terrorism will be greatly diminished if uk pulls plug out of power in the field.

Why do people choose London to raise money then from international money market including Indian rupee denominated bonds if they don't believe in UK law system? Fact is London money market is deepest in the world and everyone in the trade knows about it. Rather than dismissing things it is better to have a relationship where India will be winner than looking back at history and fuming about it. It was past and so was other 84 nations including parts of America which were once British colony too. Everyone has moved past and we should too and embrace things which are better for our next generation.

Well perhaps you are free to think whatever you like but India will be beneficiary in brexit and we should approach this with open mind. We will loose pie because whatever India can export to Britain can be easily replaced by any other nations on earth. On the other hand there is nothing that India can really import from uk because it will be way to expensive anyway and we can offer to make them in India. Only thing Britain is interested in is markets of India in 20 years time when we will be much more developed nation and deep pockets go buy anything UK can offer.

Japanese and Germans are simply investing in India so that they can pay for their rapidly ageing population and nothing out of love for our culture. It is hard calculation but fact is there are no friends or enemies just national interests. I rest my case here because otherwise I shall be branded British advocate whereas I am just trying to clear some misconceptions.


What's with this deep admiration of past invaders and colonizers. How many of London's landmarks were built using Indian money? How India is talked about in BBC? How much Indian students are welcomed in those top univs? I know how we are treated in UQ, why creamy layer from India prefers US univs? All shady people seek refuge there, quarter of London is owned by the Arabs anyway, as one of my prof said, they let rich come to London to keep it's glory high.
FYKI, Germans and Japanese invest 3 times the money that your dear UQ does, but they don't preach us on anything, with I was your past "lord" kinda attitude. Their investment is far more efficient in creating jobs.

All your post is about how UQ is great, we know that's why it's called "Great" Britain. But what do we get from all those greatness is the question here, and I don't see an answer. In 20 years time, all those you mentioned that UQ has to offer would probably be made in India itself, except may be aerospace industry.


This was precisely the type of argument I was trying to avoid, being branded colonial admirer and make it clear that I am writing down what I have seen over last 10 years being in UK and observed.
London landmarks were built using money from all of its colonies and India being crown jewel among them from where they sucked the most - everyone knows that but you have to move on from 1950's. French sucked from Africa, Spain from central and south America, German from Africa with brutal world wars and killing jews, dutch in east Asia, Japanese for their atrocities to Chinese and east Asia yada yada. If you are talking about moral high ground then if Britain is considered naked then others were just short of hiding their nipples with the leaves and equally bad too. Now no one in the world holds a hang up against them? Not even those who were suppressed equally by their respective colonists. So why should we be holding up the history and not move on?
BBC is that of old have and leftists who will hold anti India bias anyway. So why worry and I don't see India being reported favourably in any western or Eastern media read China except perhaps Russia which chooses to highlight positive things about indica rather than negatives. Arabs owning quarter of London is like saying Arabs own half of Manhatten - total myths and heresey without any facts on the ground.

Now coming to your facts:
German investment in India in last 20 years: 9.5 billion euros
UK investment in India in last 20 years: 24.5 billion (2.5x times German companies did)
Talking about Japanese investment? You have to be ready for this too:

[url]https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/nissan-sues-india-over-outstanding-dues-seeks-over-770-milllion/articleshow/61874305.cms
[/url]

Plus Japan has lot of debt and large economy which it has to reinvest around the world to cater for its ageing population, defense and strategic aim in the region. India really is the only nation with whom they don't have bad blood in the history. South Korea does not invest as much in India as you would like to believe and they do so to gain access to Indian market too and not out of deep love for India!! They just want their foot in India first so that they are not left behind when India becomes a rich nation in 20 years time.

I do not glorify UK and still debate with my British colleagues and make them aware about what they really did in India. It seems that most educated ones know that however choose to be ignorant because truth is bitter pill everyone wants to avoid.

India will certainly benefit from wind technology, financial services, aerospace and security services tie ups with UK in long run. Plus I have seen UK being least racist towards Indians and I have travelled across more than 40 nations to come to this conclusion.

All I am saying is that we have to keep eyes, ears and mind open when seeking a better nation for our children without allowing past prejudices to cloud present decisions in long term I of our nation. Ideally we should be self sufficient but we are far from it.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 01 Dec 2017 14:55

Mort Walker wrote:In most recent times the UK has documented ripping off India during WWII at the rate 1 million pound sterling a day for 6 years. They owe India reparations with interest and inflation. It is with schadenfreude pleasure to watch Trump tell the Britshits off.

This applies to all colonists of the past including Arabs who looted Somnath temple number of times in the past of its gold and Iranians who hod peacock throne too..atleast they cared about documenting how much they ripped India off. Try finding anything related to how much Spaniards and Portuguese ripped from North and south American gold mines!! No one knows exactly how much entire set of rich nations has looted but that is fact and we have to live with.heck we don't even know how much Indian gold adores mosques of Constantinople to Mecca after being looted for 500 years. All those who looted India reserve equal contempt and not just recent ones.
Last edited by ashish raval on 01 Dec 2017 15:16, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 01 Dec 2017 15:02

Suraj wrote:I agree with ashish raval about the question of truly understanding London. They, London in particular, are a center of capitalism . They have 500 years of accumulated wealth that’s been compounding and growing . Together with that, they have a system that pragmatically lets them grow that wealth and maintain their influence by being a source of capital and business influence. Until Brexit, they parlayed that well to be the gateway to Europe .

Even if businesses move out, there aren’t too many good alternatives . The French really don’t have a system to make it work . Neither do the Germans . The Dutch come closest . But all are still more heavily stakeholder driven (ie worker friendly) rather than shareholder driven - the Anglo-Saxon approach of US and UK.

What do they offer India ? Well, there are three things associated with capitalism - capital, goods and labor . What we need are:
- inbound capital
- outbound labor
What they seek is
- outbound goods we

There’s a fundamental disconnect as a result . We would like them to put their money here and accept our workforce . Neither is their priority . They want access to our market for their goods . In this regard they’re not so interesting . Last time I checked, UK was the 18th or 20th largest trading partner of India . Even Singapore, Kuwait and Belgium rank higher .

So I expect nothing to happen . They are useful to us if we can parlay the deal to squeeze capital - most of which was ours simply being grabbed back - out of them , and force our labor down their throat .


Agree yet what is their rank in being favourable partner in trade to India? --> Rank 4. Nation to which we export more than we import from. I don't care any other figures except net trade balance. What should be our priority as developing nation? Trying to trade more with Chinese who sucks 50 billion more per year from us or trade more with nation with which we hold 5 billion advantage?

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 01 Dec 2017 15:08

Kashi wrote:Regardless of merits and demerits of London, we must be only concerned with how any India-UK trade deal benefits India. We must ask ourselves, what is it that we gain out of this trade with UK and is that what we are looking for?

This is what we should focus upon. There was a place for other things in nukkad which his unfortunately no longer available to us to rant about things.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 01 Dec 2017 20:39

ashish raval wrote:Agree yet what is their rank in being favourable partner in trade to India? --> Rank 4. Nation to which we export more than we import from. I don't care any other figures except net trade balance. What should be our priority as developing nation? Trying to trade more with Chinese who sucks 50 billion more per year from us or trade more with nation with which we hold 5 billion advantage?

*They* are not looking for greater exports from us. They're seeking the opposite - greater imports from them. Further, they aren't open to either of what we really need - long term capital inflows (FDI, not FII) and free movement of labour.

There's nothing in their public utterances favoring a greater opening up of the British market for Indian goods, just a desire to have greater access to the Indian market. There's absolutely pin drop silence on anything to do with Indian professionals, students or even visitors to UK .

My earlier post is really quite clear on where the disconnect it. The two countries are talking past each other as far as priorities go, that's all.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 01 Dec 2017 21:04

Suraj wrote:
ashish raval wrote:Agree yet what is their rank in being favourable partner in trade to India? --> Rank 4. Nation to which we export more than we import from. I don't care any other figures except net trade balance. What should be our priority as developing nation? Trying to trade more with Chinese who sucks 50 billion more per year from us or trade more with nation with which we hold 5 billion advantage?

*They* are not looking for greater exports from us. They're seeking the opposite - greater imports from them. Further, they aren't open to either of what we really need - long term capital inflows (FDI, not FII) and free movement of labour.

There's nothing in their public utterances favoring a greater opening up of the British market for Indian goods, just a desire to have greater access to the Indian market. There's absolutely pin drop silence on anything to do with Indian professionals, students or even visitors to UK .

My earlier post is really quite clear on where the disconnect it. The two countries are talking past each other as far as priorities go, that's all.


Even if I take your assertion literally which other country is exactly opening up their market for Indian exports and giving red carpet welcome to Indian students professionals to settle in their countries. Can you name exactly 1 country which fulfilled criterion you just listed above as a benchmark for a free trade deal now a days?

Trade goes both ways to link movement of people is absolutely bad attitude to have in any trade negotiations. It leads to nowhere.

By this assertion even African nations can ask for free movement of people and are we prepared to give African nations such privilege that we are seeking with western nations ?

With regard to students UK had to close graduate study visa for all non Europeans because European migration practically was unlimited leading to severe strain on UK public services otherwise they would not have liked to stop cash cow students to be here and those who are good to stay here. They are seriously thinking about reopening it after brexit to meet industry expectations.
What they will not allow what happened in labour days when 1000 English teaching colleges pop up allowing hundreds of thousands of fake students to come here and take up restaurant jobs.

Visitors can get visa very easily for UK. Much more easily than USA gives to us.

As I said earlier there is absolutely nothing that Indians will really but from Britain made so there is no point for them to access more markets for their products unless there are people who are suing up to buy Aston Martin or overpriced Eurofighter typhoons. They would rather produce things in India which has large English speaking population with good education system.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby periaswamy » 01 Dec 2017 22:27

ashish_raval: Trade goes both ways to link movement of people is absolutely bad attitude to have in any trade negotiations. It leads to nowhere.


So why would you say this unless you want to deny India's service industry access to british markets? If UK does not like India's attitude re: free movement of labour, and considering that equivalent to free movement of goods, then UK can f*** right off. India does not need commercial relations with the UK when it is doing commerce with countries in the EU that can easily provide the same basket of good the UK does. If UK wants to pretend that India's demands are "bad attitude", that is the UK's problem.

As others have pointed out, there is *nothing* that the UK can provide than cannot be traded at a competitive price with some other supplier in the EU/USA/Asia.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ramana » 01 Dec 2017 22:30

ashish raval, Thanks for your other side perspective.

To me I want the capital market to shift from Londonistan to Mumbai(after cleaning up the underworld)

At first for Africa and Asia economies.


Are you in finance?

Do you UK members get together?
there are quite a few folks from there and nearby countries.

periswamy, I would have London shift their capital firms to Mumbai.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby periaswamy » 01 Dec 2017 22:35

ramanaji, I am not sure trade relations with the UK will have an effect on private financial companies choosing India over other EU countries, at least in the short to medium term.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 02 Dec 2017 00:56

ashish raval wrote:Can you name exactly 1 country which fulfilled criterion you just listed above as a benchmark for a free trade deal now a days?

My point of view has nothing to do with idealism in trade deals. That is a strawman I've no desire to waste time on.

Here are basic facts:
* The driver of a specialized trade deal is UK, not India. This has been true since Brexit. In other words, it matters what they offer upfront, before we agree what they desire. What do they offer upfront ? Nothing that we find important.
* The current GoI has not made interaction with UK a priority. UK was excluded from the early state visit to EU capitals Paris and Berlin, and the first and only state visit was 1.5 years into the current administration. The Nov 2015 visit is the only state visit by Modi. All other major countries have been visited before UK, and again since 2015. No further visits are planned in 2018, and 2019 is an election year for India.
* May's Nov 2016 state visit was a failure and a essentially a foreign policy disaster for May.
* India has specialized trade deal agreements beyond the general WTO framework in the works with some countries.
* UK is not among the list of countries with which a FTA exists, is under negotiation, or planned. They *were* (subsumed within EU) but no longer, due to Brexit.
* UK is not and has not been a major trade partner of India for a few decades now. The dynamics of trade with other countries are separate dynamics in themselves, not a qualitative comparison between countries. They've been outside the top 10 for a long time, and are almost out of the top 20.
* Despite the last 2 UK PMs claiming the contrary, UK has fallen further down the list of countries by volume of trade with India, from 14th-16th largest in Cameron's time, to 18th largest now.
* India seeks long term capital investments via FDI, not short term equity. Even debt market is preferable. We already get these from a range of sources. See the economy thread for more. Local g-sec offerings are chronically oversubscribed by foreign investors.
* The Masala Bond offshore market primarily based in London is much smaller than the rupee-denominated onshore bond market. RBI of course prefers the onshore market.

As for UK visa, I'll provide my own experience as opinion: having applied for one (business though, not visitor) within the last year. When the FCO later emailed me for feedback on the process I responded that their paperwork for a simple business visa is absurdly long and complex, way too costly, and I'd never dream of applying for one if it wasn't company business paid for entirely by company. That's my opinion, not just offered here, but to UK Govt on their request. The original email from my work account makes for hilarious reading; I copied it to several colleagues for their amusement.

The UK is subjectively worse than US in immigration ease, because they are expected to make it way easier for the most powerful nation in the Commonwealth (the C in FCO is commonwealth after all), but they do not. India ought to have preferential entry travel access to UK on part with the white commonwealth countries at the very minimum, if the UK seek favors from us. As it stands, the UK is the entity driving the push for something from/with us.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Mort Walker » 02 Dec 2017 01:18

ashish raval wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:In most recent times the UK has documented ripping off India during WWII at the rate 1 million pound sterling a day for 6 years. They owe India reparations with interest and inflation. It is with schadenfreude pleasure to watch Trump tell the Britshits off.

This applies to all colonists of the past including Arabs who looted Somnath temple number of times in the past of its gold and Iranians who hod peacock throne too..atleast they cared about documenting how much they ripped India off. Try finding anything related to how much Spaniards and Portuguese ripped from North and south American gold mines!! No one knows exactly how much entire set of rich nations has looted but that is fact and we have to live with.heck we don't even know how much Indian gold adores mosques of Constantinople to Mecca after being looted for 500 years. All those who looted India reserve equal contempt and not just recent ones.


This is in the last 75-80 years. The survivors of this are still around as they may be some BRF members, our parents and grand parents. This is not something which happened over 500 years ago. The security situation of India is clearly the results of most recent British enforced partition of the sub continent. We don’t care what others did where and when in history, but those who committed genocide by starvation and theft of India most recently. The people impacted by this are still alive and are due reparations.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby eklavya » 02 Dec 2017 02:36

ramana wrote:To me I want the capital market to shift from Londonistan to Mumbai(after cleaning up the underworld)

At first for Africa and Asia economies.

periswamy, I would have London shift their capital firms to Mumbai.


When you look at the world’s leading international financial centres (NYC, London, Dubai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo), what do you find:
- a trusted and efficient legal system
- a trusted taxation system
- capital account convertibility
- a hinterland of capital providers and capital users
- infrastructure

It also tends to help if the city is livable i.e. do fund managers, accountants, bankers and lawyers from all over the world want to live and raise their families there.

Mumbai has many of the key attributes, but some are still WIP.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby eklavya » 02 Dec 2017 02:57

Suraj wrote:Further, they aren't open to either of what we really need - long term capital inflows (FDI, not FII) and free movement of labour.


FDI: BP is spending billions on developing the Krishna-Godavari basin (along with its partner RIL); Vodafone is one of the biggest investors in the Indian telecoms market; Cairn Energy discovered and developed the Mangala field in Rajasthan; HSBC and Standard Chartered have a huge presence in India; etc.

Free movement of labour: Apart from the countries in the EU, which of the G20 states have “free movement of labour” with each other?

Britain’s most popular export remains: :mrgreen:

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby sanjaykumar » 02 Dec 2017 03:31

Hey, what’s my wife doing here?

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 02 Dec 2017 04:02

eklavya wrote:Free movement of labour: Apart from the countries in the EU, which of the G20 states have “free movement of labour” with each other?

You're missing the point. The UK wants something from us quite keenly. It's been repeated in the British press very keenly. 'Trade deal with big countries like India'. It's a talisman almost. Scroll a few pages back and they justify giving up their ICJ seat as 'not offending India so they give us a good trade deal'. The Indian view of the same episode is WAY different - 'finally we kicked a P5 member out of something we want'. There's absolutely no reference to any quid pro quo in our case - we're grabbing what's ours to take.

In a negotiation position where one party is very keen on something, it's *their* (UK's) job to convince the other (us) why we should give them that . Particularly when - as pointed out in the earlier post - there's very little GoI interest in furthering UK ties. Modi has done multiple visits to US, China, Germany/France, Russia, China and SE Asia, and just one trip more than 2 years ago to UK, after he was done visiting all other major and near neighbor countries. The bottomline is that the UK seeks a good deal urgently with a country whose corresponding level of interest in offering them that is lukewarm at best.

What EU or anyone else offers is irrelevant. They're not the ones urgently seeking a trade deal with India. India has a very clear list of demands of the UK if they need something from us. This isn't a question of two equal parties negotiating with equal enthusiasm. It's a case of a weaker entity seeking to make up for a disastrous geopolitical decision they inflicted upon themselves, by hoping for a deals elsewhere to make up for it. India has no political desire today to seek better ties with UK. They're quite happy to simply default to standard WTO regime without any special bilateral FTA. Under those circumstances, when the UK is keen on something, it's their job to lay out sufficient sweeteners on the plate for us first.


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