Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 21 May 2018 18:10

The CBI is likely to approach Interpol for a Red Corner Notice against absconding billionaire jewellers Nirav Modi and Mehul Choksi who are allegedly the brains behind the over $2 billion scam in Punjab National Bank, agency sources said. http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/c ... 941656.ece

why was this not done so far?

habal · Post by **habal** » 21 May 2018 20:43

Unlike what we would like to believe, those NRIs sitting in London are sitting there because the GoI allowed them to move out. If the govt were serious and said nothing doing and cracked the whip on British authorities, they would have handed over these characters within hours.

Ottavio Quattrochi was a case in point, the cong-led govts always watered down the case and sent 2 sorry looking cbi officers to London where they would present purposefully inadequate documents on hope that British do not hand over quattrochi even by mistake. The cbi idiots went to London with such sorry face that british authorities would take pity and provide loophole in documentation as excuse not to hand over quattrochi. This was how the game was played.

Same case for Mallya, what they say in media is not what happens in reality. Requisitions are never sent on time or sent at all, warrants are never issued nor faxed to British authorities. Interpol is never alerted or alerted too late only after suspect has reached a destination with strong witness protection laws. Only in media arnab makes a hue & cry but on ground level no action has been initiated against choksi, mallya, niravmodi or the jain jeweller by govt of india.

In case of terrorists like khalistanis and nadeem-types they are allowed to flee from India with warning never to return. Canadian & British govt do a wink & nod and keep these vile characters with a view to using them as leverage at a later date. Just in case a syria or iraq type operation is planned for subcon, all these characters will come tumbling out of closet.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 May 2018 21:33

have to mostly agree with you on that. life is not made tough for these characters.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 21 May 2018 23:03

I think unnecessary speculation and whining about the intents of the government are not helpful here. I'd like to point out some simple facts:
* Mallya's passport has been cancelled. He cannot travel out of UK, since he has no government issued travel document (left India March 2016, passport canceled April 2016).
* Mallya has not only been declared a fugitive in UK, but his creditors have been permitted to go after his British assets.
* All banks have been instructed to obtain passport details for commercial lending in excess of Rs.50 crore (March 2018, right after the PNB scam came to light)
* The Fugutive Economic Offender Bill 2018 was introduced on March 12 2018 (FEO Bill 2018) . Simply put, it confiscates properties of all economic fugitives. Rs. 170 crore of Nirav Modi's assets were attached hours ago.

Unattributed stories about 'sad looking CBI officers' are not useful discussion here.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 May 2018 23:14

nothing prevents mallya, modi or anyone from getting paid passport of malta, cyprus, st kitts etc as I posted here.
these countries offer visa free travel to 150+ nations and do not have any restrictions of double triple quadruple citizenship
its all cash and carry. I bet they already have such passports.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-cheap ... zenship-in

Dominica - $100,000 (donation fund) or $200,000 real estate
St Kitts and Nevis - $250,000 (donation fund) or $400,000 real estate ,
Antigua and Barbuda - $200,000 (donation fund) or $400,000 real estate
Grenada - $200,000 (donation fund) or $350,000 (real estate)
St Lucia - $100,000 (donation fund) or $300,000 (real estate)

If you are lucky to have millions, you can get EU citizenship within months..

Cyprus - 2,500,000 euros (6 months)
Malta - 900,000 euros (13- 15 months)
Austria - 10,000,000 euros (not guaranteed)

You have to understand that just money alone cannot buy citizenships and these countries have stringent rules. When you apply for their citizenship by investment programs (CIP), you have to undergo strict background and due diligence checks done by these Governments. So criminals, terrorists or offenders can never get their hands on these citizenships.

Besides, these CIP schemes, there are residency (a.k.a golden visa schemes) offered by several countries in Europe against a business or real estate investment. You will be given residency, but have to live for 5 or more years to naturalize for Citizenship. Portugal is the most popular one.

Belgium - 350,000 euros (5 years for citizenship)
United Kingdom - 2,000,000 pounds (5 years for british passport)
Portugal - 500,000 euros (6 years for citizenship)
Switzerland - 1,000,000 swiss francs (12 years for citizenship)
Greece - 250,000 euros (7 years for citizenship)
Netherlands - 500,000 euros (5 years for citizenship)
Ireland - 500,000 euros (5 years for citizenship)
United States - 500,000 dollars (5 years for citizenship)
Canada - C$800,000 (3 years for citizenship)
Hungary - 300,000 euros (8 years for citizenship)
Latvia - 275,000 euros (10 years)
Bulgaria - 500,000 euros (5 years)
Australia - 1,500,000 AUD (5 years)

Before you jump to applying for such citizenship schemes, you may want to investigate the issue of Dual passports. I am not sure about your nationality but your home country may not allow you hold a second citizenship (eg. China, India, UAE, Russia).

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 22 May 2018 04:18

Look how west uses regulators to screw nations
https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2018 ... stigations

We should learn and apply the technique. After all it is regulators who are bad not the government lol..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 May 2018 08:27

kuch nahi hone wala hai .... too much indian dirty money and political slush funds are probably in UK from all sides - that how UK exercises "leverage" it has money from all sides and can rat on them to opposite parties

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 056_1.html

The suspects were apprehended in 40 countries and regions: 104 were arrested by the police and 76 returned to China to give themselves up. The number surpassed that of last year, Xinhua quoted the ministry as saying.

---
China does not have extradition treaties with the United States and Canada - the two most popular destinations for suspected economic criminals. State media said last year that China is looking at signing an agreement with the United States to target assets illegally taken out of China by corrupt officials.

nirav and mallya need to be dragged out of planes to send a message or "arrest them on nepal border"

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 May 2018 08:29

since the plane is canadian, this fellow must have returned to give himself up because they caught and thrashed his family.
our desi fugitives seem to have obtained foreign passports for the entire family to guard against such weak points in the chain.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 May 2018 09:19

UK's N-subs programme may face 6B GBP shortfall in the coming 10 years which could cripple the programme.

Billionaire Roman Abromanovich , owner of Chelsea football club denied entry into the UK...until he shows where his billions are coming from.The UK's revenge against Russian billionaires who are allegedly Putin's friends.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 22 May 2018 21:22

Suraj wrote: * Mallya's passport has been cancelled. He cannot travel out of UK, since he has no government issued travel document (left India March 2016, passport canceled April 2016).

He attended Monaco Grand Prix this year. He certainly has a second passport which allowed him entry into Monaco.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 23 May 2018 00:09

panduranghari wrote:
Suraj wrote: * Mallya's passport has been cancelled. He cannot travel out of UK, since he has no government issued travel document (left India March 2016, passport canceled April 2016).
He attended Monaco Grand Prix this year. He certainly has a second passport which allowed him entry into Monaco.

What the cluck ? I haven't seen that he's actually left UK to the GP. Any press reports about it ? There's clearly more that needs to be done to establish whether people have another passport and don't report this to GoI so that their citizenship can be formally renounced.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 23 May 2018 01:02

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 256487.cms
UK committee says dirty Russian money threatens security

LONDON: The British Parliament's foreign affairs committee has slammed the government for "turning a blind eye" to the role London's financial centre plays in laundering the proceeds of Russian corruption, saying it helps the Kremlin finance its aggressive foreign policy.
The committee says in a report published today that despite the tough rhetoric over the nerve agent attack on a former spy in Britain earlier this year, President Vladimir Putin's allies were able to continue "business as usual" in the UK.
The committee says "the use of London as a base for the corrupt assets of Kremlin-connected individuals is now linked to a wider Russia strategy with implications for the UK's national security."
It adds that failing to act signals that "the UK is not serious about confronting the full spectrum of President Putin's offensive measures."

saip · Post by **saip** » 23 May 2018 01:18

If the Passport is cancelled by India, will it be confiscated by other countries if used for travel (India may do it if it is ever presented in India or to Indian consulates)?

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 23 May 2018 02:48

panduranghari wrote:
Suraj wrote: * Mallya's passport has been cancelled. He cannot travel out of UK, since he has no government issued travel document (left India March 2016, passport canceled April 2016).
He attended Monaco Grand Prix this year. He certainly has a second passport which allowed him entry into Monaco.

IIRC, he has had a virtual pit stop built with latest audio/video/communication gadgets in his mansion in UK from and he communicate's with his F1 team in real time during the races.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 24 May 2018 21:03

http://uk.businessinsider.com/india-in- ... ?r=US&IR=T

LONDON — India is no rush to do a post-Brexit trade deal with Britain and will demand easier access for Indians to migrate to Britain as part of a future trade relationship, the country's high commissioner has said.

Many Brexiteers, including Trade Secretary Liam Fox, argue leaving the European Union will allow Britain to sign prosperous new trade deals with global economic powerhouses, including India, the USA and China.

Speaking to Politico, Yashvardhan Sinha, the Indian High Commission in London, said India would like to the "best deal possible" with Britain, however, it is not a priority for its prime minister, Narendra Modi.

"I don’t think India is in a rush. I think India would like certainly, and I’m sure the U.K. would too … to get the best deal possible," Sinha said.

Sinha also reiterated previous warnings that India will want a trade deal with post-Brexit Britain to make it easier for Indian nationals to travel to and work the UK.

"I think for us it is very important that if we need to step up our engagement we need to have that easier access, the ease of travel has to be looked into," he said.

In November, Sinha told The Telegraph that Britain must be prepared to accept more Indian migrants as a price of any free trade deal agreed between London and New Delhi.

"You’ve all read about issues of freer mobility of professions. That is something right up there as far as India is concerned," he said.

"I’m not talking about unfettered access or unrestricted travel, I’m talking about movement of professionals, movement of doctors, technicians, engineers. I think both sides will benefit from this exchange."

That could be dangerous political ground for Theresa May, who remains committed to bringing net migration to the UK down to below 100,000 and has vowed to "respect" the Brexit vote by "taking back control" of national borders.

Britain currently cannot sign its own free trade deals as part of the EU's customs union. It will be able to sign new deals during the proposed transition period, but these cannot be implemented until the transition is over.

Writing for Business Insider on Thursday, trade expert Sam Lowe warned that countries will make tricky and in some cases unacceptable demands in free trade deal negotiations with post-Brexit Britain.

"When it comes down to it, I wouldn’t be surprised if the most valuable lesson we learn from our first post-Brexit forays into the world is that, when lofty free trade ambition runs up against domestic political reality, the UK is really quite 'European' after all," the Centre for European Reform research fellow wrote.

Sinha also expressed disappointment with the "very dated or very incomplete" knowledge of Indian culture and history he has encountered in Britain.

“I don’t know whether it is what is taught in schools here … what is taught about India for instance, whether it is the old Raj-based history, or whether anything at all," he told Politico.

"As a people we are so close and there is so much interaction, so we need to do something there in terms of reaching out to the youth, to important decision-makers in the country."

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 24 May 2018 22:10

IndraD wrote:http://uk.businessinsider.com/india-in- ... ?r=US&IR=T

LONDON — India is no rush to do a post-Brexit trade deal with Britain and will demand easier access for Indians to migrate to Britain as part of a future trade relationship, the country's high commissioner has said.

Many Brexiteers, including Trade Secretary Liam Fox, argue leaving the European Union will allow Britain to sign prosperous new trade deals with global economic powerhouses, including India, the USA and China.

Speaking to Politico, Yashvardhan Sinha, the Indian High Commission in London, said India would like to the "best deal possible" with Britain, however, it is not a priority for its prime minister, Narendra Modi.

"I don’t think India is in a rush. I think India would like certainly, and I’m sure the U.K. would too … to get the best deal possible," Sinha said.

Sinha also reiterated previous warnings that India will want a trade deal with post-Brexit Britain to make it easier for Indian nationals to travel to and work the UK.

Thank you. I've stated this many times here in the past few months - India is not going to give post-Brexit UK the deal it would like. We're going to get the deal they're compelled to give us due to the circumstances they've placed themselves in. Despite what the UK fans here post, the Indian government (and this is not party specific) does not value enhanced ties with the UK. The UK has put itself in a precarious position due to Brexit. One does not offer lifelines to desperate parties - one extracts the most they can out of their circumstances, and gives out the least required in return.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 25 May 2018 03:20

I am really surprised how people view Brexit as a negative thing when in reality none of those crap doomsday scenario has even close to materialisation and conversely UK has been growing steadily even in such a bumpy scenario. Ombaba even came down as preacher to advice People how to vote..lol. People were loftily claiming London is dead Frankfurt is new London and how bankers will be seeping champagne in moulin rouge in 6 months time. Instead Google, Apple and Facebook are making London their European headquarters. 400+ sky scrapers are under development in London surely there are no more than 20 russian billionaires which are supposedly making London run, funnily enough as claimed by some posters, Japanese raise the money and build their next generation electric vehicles. UK is still overflowing with migrants arriving busloads on a daily basis from Europe everyday and I don't see any sign of slowing down of its service sector and students still flock to three of top world 5 places in the world to study.

As far as I know every UK banks and businesses has been running every scenario and not a single company has left UK despite Brexit being less than a year away minus the transition period. If I was british business worried enough I would have packed the bag and left for Paris but hey try firing an employee in France and thy shall see the consequence!!! Why do you think TCS do not hire people from Berlin or Paris?

I still think migrants should not be made sticking point as it creates brain drain but instead we should ask for thousands of scholarships for Indian students who should return back to India after studying and contribute to Indian growth story. We can get argue for better business access that would fetch 10x times more growth in India than sending few migrants to earn piddly sum in these nations and wasting their lives settling in a foreign land. If there are 10 Facebook like organisations opened after students returning back to India, it would have contributed enough to Indian growth story that zillions of NRI ever did by staying outside results.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 25 May 2018 04:51

All of that is moot. You may claim so, and others may disagree.

From an India-UK perspective, particularly an intergovernmental one which is what really matters, what Brexit has done is :
a) cause a sitting UK PM with an interest in furthering India ties, who had a strong electoral mandate (higher in 2015 than in 2010), to resign.
b) elevation of a hardliner with a controversial anti-immigrant background - May - to lead an unstable regime in charge of implementing a contentious ballot result.
c) constant political chaos and noise from the ongoing Brexit talks

That India doesn't particularly care for UK ties even during Cameron's era, was clear. It particularly does not have any interest in doing business with a hardliner like May. We have the luxury to wait for the UK to feel compelled to give us the terms we demand of them, in return for anything we feel like offering. They on the other hand, have a politically unstable regime of anti-immigrant hardliners - the sitting PM presided over a plan to destroy immigrant records to meet deportation goals - trying to quickly do deals.

India's fundamental demand is greater access to UK for Indian labour and students. A regime of anti-immigrant hardliners in UK will never work out in improving these ties. The bar they need to clear to win favour with India is VERY high - one cannot even transit Heathrow airport without a transit visa, an incredibly stupid requirement from them of us. I've never transited using LHR as a result.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 25 May 2018 06:17

ashish raval wrote:I still think migrants should not be made sticking point as it creates brain drain but instead we should ask for thousands of scholarships for Indian students who should return back to India after studying and contribute to Indian growth story. We can get argue for better business access that would fetch 10x times more growth in India than sending few migrants to earn piddly sum in these nations and wasting their lives settling in a foreign land. If there are 10 Facebook like organisations opened after students returning back to India, it would have contributed enough to Indian growth story that zillions of NRI ever did by staying outside results.

So when are you returning to India?

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 25 May 2018 08:10

ashish raval wrote:I am really surprised how people view Brexit as a negative thing when in reality none of those crap doomsday scenario has even close to materialisation and conversely UK has been growing steadily even in such a bumpy scenario. Ombaba even came down as preacher to advice People how to vote..lol. People were loftily claiming London is dead Frankfurt is new London and how bankers will be seeping champagne in moulin rouge in 6 months time. Instead Google, Apple and Facebook are making London their European headquarters. 400+ sky scrapers are under development in London surely there are no more than 20 russian billionaires which are supposedly making London run, funnily enough as claimed by some posters, Japanese raise the money and build their next generation electric vehicles. UK is still overflowing with migrants arriving busloads on a daily basis from Europe everyday and I don't see any sign of slowing down of its service sector and students still flock to three of top world 5 places in the world to study.

As far as I know every UK banks and businesses has been running every scenario and not a single company has left UK despite Brexit being less than a year away minus the transition period. If I was british business worried enough I would have packed the bag and left for Paris but hey try firing an employee in France and thy shall see the consequence!!! Why do you think TCS do not hire people from Berlin or Paris?
...

Nothing about India-UK relations, but some of your points on labor laws are legitimate.

YES, none of those doomsday scenarios have materialized because everyone ("businesses" especially) knows that UK want to leave EU common market "without actually leaving" the common market. Name of this fancy "scheme" is called Brexit. In less than a year UK will leave EU common market "on paper", but not really leave the common market by giving a clever name to this "excuse" by calling it a "transition period", which may last through 2021/22 who knows. I'm sure those clever brits will coin another term after transition years are over; just in time for next general election...perhaps clearing the throne for Bubba Johnson.

Good to see Indian beuraucracy has shown great deal of depth and understanding by sidelining UK/Brexit distractions...

On a side note, numbers below are very small but legit
Surge in Britons becoming Germans

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 25 May 2018 13:02

Suraj wrote: India's fundamental demand is greater access to UK for Indian labour and students. A regime of anti-immigrant hardliners in UK will never work out in improving these ties. The bar they need to clear to win favour with India is VERY high - one cannot even transit Heathrow airport without a transit visa, an incredibly stupid requirement from them of us. I've never transited using LHR as a result.

Ok. I understand the point about transit visa and that is something we as a country can take it up in greater business access and exchange forums. Alternatively, India can replicate what they do to Indian business concerns. The whole purpose of brexit was to stop free movement of labour from continent to UK and stop undercutting UK labour and distort minimum wage market. We can push for scheme allowing graduate to work here for couple of years before they can transition to work visa as company knows their capability well enough. More often than not, I have felt that people who has stayed here after studies could have made much more difference in India. I can cite few examples eho returned to India and are principal investigators or pharma laboratory heads now whereas here they could have made less difference here compared to back home. In this context, I believe pushing for people making their livelihood here is basically bleeding Indian talent who can make more difference in India and become famous. This is precisely I am dont see labour movement being a sticky point. Business access, student staying after graduation to learn the ropes & experience yes, transit facilities yes.
I dont see why we can be friends with other colonists like Japan, france, germans and spain but not with britain all based on historical baggage. Afterall business is business, betterment of people on fastest possible way should be our aim and to us, it is a big export market nothing else. Once India achieve self sufficiency in technology and production, we can play ball like chinese do.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 25 May 2018 13:14

ashish raval wrote:I dont see why we can be friends with other colonists like Japan, france, germans and spain but not with britain all based on historical baggage. Afterall business is business, betterment of people on fastest possible way should be our aim and to us, it is a big export market nothing else. Once India achieve self sufficiency in technology and production, we can play ball like chinese do.

You are completely wrong here. It is *you* who is asserting historical baggage in favor of UK ties (English language, culture, ties, food yadda yadda). I am the one who's talking business and business alone. You can replace UK with Burkina Faso, and the argument is exactly the same in my case.

When you sit at a table and you know the other guy is busy, stressed out, internally embattled, running a minority government, trying to get time bound deals in place with outsiders, you don't do them a favour. You don't offer freebies. You sit at the table, and assert your most maximalist demands, and offering nothing. You force the concessions out of them first, and give them as little in return as you can for it.

There's nothing personal here. You think this is an act of vengeful pique. No, this is simply how business is done, when one party senses the other has a weak hand and is in a rush. This is why India pays gold plated prices for defence imports in a crunch, too. The party with lesser negotiating space gets scrood. That is entirely business.

No offense, but successive Indian governments on both sides of the political spectrum have demonstrated identical foreign policies wrt UK. Their position matters more than any amount of hot air about the benefits of UK ties that you offer. UK ties don't improve because UK has nothing to bend over and hand us. It's that simple.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 25 May 2018 15:09

ashish raval wrote:
Suraj wrote: India's fundamental demand is greater access to UK for Indian labour and students. A regime of anti-immigrant hardliners in UK will never work out in improving these ties. The bar they need to clear to win favour with India is VERY high - one cannot even transit Heathrow airport without a transit visa, an incredibly stupid requirement from them of us. I've never transited using LHR as a result.
Ok. I understand the point about transit visa and that is something we as a country can take it up in greater business access and exchange forums. Alternatively, India can replicate what they do to Indian business concerns. The whole purpose of brexit was to stop free movement of labour from continent to UK and stop undercutting UK labour and distort minimum wage market. We can push for scheme allowing graduate to work here for couple of years before they can transition to work visa as company knows their capability well enough. More often than not, I have felt that people who has stayed here after studies could have made much more difference in India. I can cite few examples eho returned to India and are principal investigators or pharma laboratory heads now whereas here they could have made less difference here compared to back home. In this context, I believe pushing for people making their livelihood here is basically bleeding Indian talent who can make more difference in India and become famous. This is precisely I am dont see labour movement being a sticky point. Business access, student staying after graduation to learn the ropes & experience yes, transit facilities yes.
I dont see why we can be friends with other colonists like Japan, france, germans and spain but not with britain all based on historical baggage. Afterall business is business, betterment of people on fastest possible way should be our aim and to us, it is a big export market nothing else. Once India achieve self sufficiency in technology and production, we can play ball like chinese do.

It's not about students alone, its about work visas for Indian companies like Infosys, TCS etc. There is no comparison between immigration from the rest of Europe or Gulf countries to immigration from India. Indian immigration is mostly high tech. We don't care what UK policies are with respect to the other countries. We wan't better access to Indian high tech workers.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 25 May 2018 19:23

LONDON — India is no rush to do a post-Brexit trade deal with Britain and will demand easier access for Indians to migrate to Britain as part of a future trade relationship, the country's high commissioner has said.

How degrading. We are asking some country to make it easier for our people to migrate to that country. So we do not need educated educated and qualified people in India? Do we want UK to grant even easier access for our criminals? Ashamed of our babus and their tark-vitark. And nobody is this insult on India? Shame.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 25 May 2018 19:28

rsingh wrote:
LONDON — India is no rush to do a post-Brexit trade deal with Britain and will demand easier access for Indians to migrate to Britain as part of a future trade relationship, the country's high commissioner has said.
How degrading. We are asking some country to make it easier for our people to migrate to that country. So we do not need educated educated and qualified people in India? Do we want UK to grant even easier access for our criminals? Ashamed of our babus and their tark-vitark. And nobody is this insult on India? Shame.

The report may be misguided.

The GoI is justifiably asking for better access for Indians to study and work in the UK and the GoI never ever said that they wanted easier migration to the UK for Indians.

The UK is asking for a lot from India in terms of trade, like easier and also preferential market access, based solely on the commonwealth connection and as usual the brits will not give us anything in return. They see our wealth as common to them, a master and slave relationship.

It is the same cunning, tried and tested, east India company gambit all over again but they forgot that a bania Gujarati is now in charge.

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 25 May 2018 20:10

^^ Free movement of people and Free movement of goods have been long standing demands of GoI. IMO totally justified. If you want to profit from my market then you must allow my professionals to compete for jobs in your land.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 25 May 2018 20:42

rsingh wrote:
LONDON — India is no rush to do a post-Brexit trade deal with Britain and will demand easier access for Indians to migrate to Britain as part of a future trade relationship, the country's high commissioner has said.
How degrading. We are asking some country to make it easier for our people to migrate to that country. So we do not need educated educated and qualified people in India? Do we want UK to grant even easier access for our criminals? Ashamed of our babus and their tark-vitark. And nobody is this insult on India? Shame.

It's not degrading. There are three aspects to capitalism - goods, capital and labour. The west once wanted free movement of goods to suit their mercantilism. Now that they're flush with wealth, they want easy movement of capital so that they can gain from the growth in developing countries. But labour ? They are richer, and don't want cheaper labour moving in and depressing wages.

Sorry, they can't have it both ways - access to goods and capital for their benefit, but no access to labour for our benefit. The UK is capital surplus and labour deficit, India is labour surplus and capital deficit. We're going to seek freedom of movement of labour. Nothing degrading about it. It's just business sense.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 25 May 2018 23:09

^^^^
India has 0.8 physicians per 1,000 people. The UK has 2.8 physicians per 1,000 people.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.PHYS.ZS

So, who is “labour surplus” in the medical sector, UK or India?

Should the Indian government demand access for Indian doctors to work in the UK? How does that benefit India?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 25 May 2018 23:18

Your argument is a logical fallacy that asserts that "labour" == "physician" , and as such, meaningless.

Cost arbitrage of sending skilled labour abroad where they earn and send back foreign currency is a completely normal and legitimate economic paradigm. The entire Gulf employment sector is about it. India is the world's largest labour exporter. Our entire 'remittances' figure is essentially earnings from exported labour, and we have continuously ranked as the nation with the largest or second largest annual remittance earnings for quite some time now.

You have 10 doctors. You can employ them at home, each making Rs.1000, or you can send them abroad, where they earn multiples of that and each send Rs.10,000 home . The local economy gains more from exporting that labour even if arguably that sector has a deficit. It's basic economics.

India earns:
* $300 billion a year exporting goods
* $130-140 billion a year exporting services
* $70 billion a year exporting labour (remittances)

These are all legitimate avenues of economic gain. As the world's biggest earner of remittances, i.e. the nation with the largest labour export earnings, it's entirely our business to insist that access to our labour be priority in any bilateral discussions.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 25 May 2018 23:18

^^^
Suraj San, point taken. Free movement of labour is one thing (mutual). Have you seen any other country speaking such language? This issue is not even bargaining chip. We have to play tough and bargain with REAL issues like. We are talking about something very thing for such a big deal. This is not supposed to be leverage. It will come naturally given good reputation of Indians. We can bargain such issue on smaller issues like giving state welcome to newly married Royal Monkey. Giving them special treatment on their visits. But for India's Shake do not waste time on this, talk serious things.
I have noticed same stuff with US. Just before some visits where strategic issues were to be discussed, we see trial balloons in Indian paid media about HB xyz Visa to be the most pressing issue. WTF. How many of Indians will benefit from this. and those who benefit from it, what india gets out of them? Most of the time they try to stick themselves there and climb their own ladder. Have you noticed one tradition? just before any India,US intractions, US spreads rumour about changes in VISA regime.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 25 May 2018 23:22

Suraj wrote:
You have 10 doctors. You can employ them at home, each making Rs.1000, or you can send them abroad, where they earn multiples of that and each send Rs.10,000 home . The local economy gains more from exporting that labour even if arguably that sector has a deficit. It's basic economics.
.

I had mistakenly believed that the Indian government spent huge sums of money on training doctors to provide medical care to Indian people. I stand corrected. It’s an export industry.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 25 May 2018 23:27

Suraj wrote:Your argument is a logical fallacy that asserts that "labour" == "physician" , and as such, meaningless.

Cost arbitrage of sending skilled labour abroad where they earn and send back foreign currency is a completely normal and legitimate economic paradigm. The entire Gulf employment sector is about it. India is the world's largest labour exporter. Our entire 'remittances' figure is essentially earnings from exported labour, and we have continuously ranked as the nation with the largest or second largest annual remittance earnings for quite some time now.

You have 10 doctors. You can employ them at home, each making Rs.1000, or you can send them abroad, where they earn multiples of that and each send Rs.10,000 home . The local economy gains more from exporting that labour even if arguably that sector has a deficit. It's basic economics.

India earns:
* $300 billion a year exporting goods
* $130-140 billion a year exporting services
* $70 billion a year exporting labour (remittances)

These are all legitimate avenues of economic gain. As the world's biggest earner of remittances, i.e. the nation with the largest labour export earnings, it's entirely our business to insist that access to our labour be priority in any bilateral discussions.

Just a small intervention from my part. Do you think those doctors send money to home? First thing they do is try to stay for ever. Buy a lil apartment or cottage. And that is it. AT Delhi Airport Departure there is a big line of UK Indians trying to change their unspent Rupees back to pounds. Most of the remittences come from unskilled or semiskilled workers. Once you start doing hamstring race ( work to pay for car and need car to go to work), You can't save much.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 25 May 2018 23:39

The acts of individuals are irrelevant noise . The economic calculus only stops making sense when the economic loss of exporting labour exceeds the gains from it . We gain $70 billion a year - equal to about 25-30% of the budget .

As long as the Rupee is worth what it is vs dollar , pound or dirham, we gain from exporting labour . It’s the economically valid thing to do .

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 25 May 2018 23:45

eklavya wrote:
Suraj wrote:
You have 10 doctors. You can employ them at home, each making Rs.1000, or you can send them abroad, where they earn multiples of that and each send Rs.10,000 home . The local economy gains more from exporting that labour even if arguably that sector has a deficit. It's basic economics.
.
I had mistakenly believed that the Indian government spent huge sums of money on training doctors to provide medical care to Indian people. I stand corrected. It’s an export industry.

The cost of training labour needs to exceed $70 billion a year for there to be an economic deficit . The central budget is $200 billion odd . Training of all labour combined , doesn’t even come close to $70 billion . We run a surplus .

The sarcasm is entirely unwarranted . If it earns more to export something than sell it domestically, it should be exported . Applies to goods, services , capital and labour . We export labour for the same reason UK exports capital - it just earns more . The UK has run down hinterlands and that doesn’t stop UK capital from going to emerging markets instead of being spent on the poor at home . Why ? Because returns are higher .

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 25 May 2018 23:52

rsingh wrote:
Suraj wrote:Your argument is a logical fallacy that asserts that "labour" == "physician" , and as such, meaningless.

Cost arbitrage of sending skilled labour abroad where they earn and send back foreign currency is a completely normal and legitimate economic paradigm. The entire Gulf employment sector is about it. India is the world's largest labour exporter. Our entire 'remittances' figure is essentially earnings from exported labour, and we have continuously ranked as the nation with the largest or second largest annual remittance earnings for quite some time now.

You have 10 doctors. You can employ them at home, each making Rs.1000, or you can send them abroad, where they earn multiples of that and each send Rs.10,000 home . The local economy gains more from exporting that labour even if arguably that sector has a deficit. It's basic economics.

India earns:
* $300 billion a year exporting goods
* $130-140 billion a year exporting services
* $70 billion a year exporting labour (remittances)

These are all legitimate avenues of economic gain. As the world's biggest earner of remittances, i.e. the nation with the largest labour export earnings, it's entirely our business to insist that access to our labour be priority in any bilateral discussions.
Just a small intervention from my part. Do you think those doctors send money to home? First thing they do is try to stay for ever. Buy a lil apartment or cottage. And that is it. AT Delhi Airport Departure there is a big line of UK Indians trying to change their unspent Rupees back to pounds. Most of the remittences come from unskilled or semiskilled workers. Once you start doing hamstring race ( work to pay for car and need car to go to work), You can't save much.

Not only skilled indian labor sends money back home but they also start doing these things in their adopted land

1. open up temples, gurudwaras, etc.
2. Create communities like Gujrat Samaj, Karnatka Sabha, Punjabi, etc in cities.
3. The Indian stores start getting imports from India for Indian groceries.
4. The indian restaurants and other stuff.

Check out this chef Vikas khanna who introduced Indian food to top. He was chef when Modi visited White house

He is from Amritsar and has introduced Amritsar food to world.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 25 May 2018 23:54

^^^^^
The UK does not export capital. It runs a huge current account deficit, which is balanced by a capital account surplus. The UK imports capital. Fact.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 26 May 2018 00:03

eklavya wrote:^^^^^
The UK does not export capital. It runs a huge current account deficit, which is balanced by a capital account surplus. The UK imports capital. Fact.

And the dekhonomonist says:
Britains biggest export : wealth

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 26 May 2018 00:19

^^^^
Britain does have huge overseas holdings of capital. But these are obviously running down if it runs a current account deficit. As of today, with Britain running a persistent current account deficit, capital is flowing into Britain, not out of Britain.

Explained here:

https://www.economist.com/the-economist ... nt-deficit

ECONOMISTS often worry about a country’s current-account deficit. Turkey’s is around 4% of GDP. Last year Britain’s was around 4.5% of GDP. America has also run a large current-account deficit for years. What does this mean, and should people worry about it?

At its simplest, a country running a current-account deficit is a net borrower from abroad. Think of it as a measure of the flow of a country’s assets from residents to non-residents. If Britain is running a current-account deficit, for instance, it means that non-British residents are accumulating British assets. A deficit usually arises when a country is importing more than it is exporting (ie, it is running a trade deficit). But it can also arise when overseas investors’ returns on assets held in the domestic economy exceed the returns held by domestic investors in overseas economies.

A current-account deficit is not necessarily a bad thing. The main reason Britain has run a large current-account deficit in recent years is because its investments abroad, largely in Europe, have performed badly (hardly a surprise given the weak economic performance of Europe in recent years). So the flow of investment income back to Britain has been low. But overseas investors in Britain have seen fairly decent returns. With Britain generally a stable, well-run place, it is not surprising that foreign investors choose to park money in Britain each year. Their investments prop up the value of the pound, and thus allow Britons to enjoy cheaper imports. Their capital can also be put to good use, in the form of investment.

Yet a big deficit is a vulnerability. If investors decide that they don’t much like the look of a country, they can refuse to finance the deficit, sending the currency plunging. (The worry is that precisely this may happen to Britain, if it falls out of investors’ good books.) And to finance a current-account deficit can require selling off assets, such as factories and firms, which can ultimately damage the economy’s productive potential. So although a big current-account deficit does not necessarily set alarm bells ringing, it is worth keeping an eye on.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 26 May 2018 00:45

According to the ONS:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/national ... pdf#page17

The financial account is the counterpart to the current account, showing how the UK is financing its borrowing from the rest of the world. Despite the economic uncertainties surrounding the EU referendum result in 2016, the UK remained attractive to outside investors and the UK was able to fund its current account deficit with investments into the UK.

The net inflow of investments into the UK rose to £119.6 billion in 2016, the highest recorded in the series history which started in 1946. The UK continued to attract inward investment after the EU referendum, with Quarter 2 (April to June) 2016 registering £171.0 billion of inward investments (the highest in just under six years). Most of this amount was attributable to direct investments and portfolio investments made in the UK (see Figure 17). Direct investments are frequently characterised by stable and long-lasting economic links, as well as the provision of technology and management, therefore the financing of the current account deficit with direct investment inflows could be seen as a more sustainable approach for the UK economy.

Also, the UK has a negative net International Investment Position, notwithstanding the significant depreciation of GBP since the Brexit vote.

However, the net IIP liability position narrowed substantially from 18.4% of nominal gross domestic product (GDP) in 2015 to 1.1% of nominal GDP in 2016 (see Figure 18), which was a result of total assets increasing by £1,356.7 billion to £10,944.7 billion, the highest value of assets held in five years. However, due to the make up of the IIP as explained previously, the increase in total assets is not necessarily driven by an increase in investment abroad.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 26 May 2018 00:47

Boss, I know UK runs a CAD . That is from their trade in goods and services . They run a capital account surplus by either gaining from investments or sale of assets . They try to balance their CAD by exporting capital . We balance our CAD by exporting labour .

None of this is in conflict with any of my prior assertions .