Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

[eklavya]

The statement below is inaccurate

[What special rules existing that 'govern trade with the EU' ? They're all bound by WTO rules.]

EU (ie currently including UK) gives better access to India (unilaterally) than WTO rules. If anything, Indian access to the UK market will decline after Brexit, whereas UK access will remain the same (without any change in the current rules).

[Kashi]

EU (ie currently including UK) gives better access to India (unilaterally) than WTO rules. If anything, Indian access to the UK market will decline after Brexit, whereas UK access will remain the same (without any change in the current rules).

Whatever does that mean? Do you mean EU market?

[eklavya]

^^^^
It means that post-Brexit, trading under WTO rules will maintain the UK’s current access to the Indian market, while reducing India’s access to the UK market (as the GSP applied by the EU unilaterally will not bind the UK).

[Suraj]

EU (ie currently including UK) gives better access to India (unilaterally) than WTO rules. If anything, Indian access to the UK market will decline after Brexit, whereas UK access will remain the same (without any change in the current rules).

India, along with China and Thailand, are transition countries who are not accorded full GSP benefits. It is provided only for some articles of export. In items like textiles where we ought to benefit, we don't, because SAARC competitors like TSP and BDesh have GSP+ benefits, and no partial GSP unlike our case.

The benefits of GSP to us are overstated. We wouldn't be talking about a FTA with EU if GSP were sufficient.

[panduranghari]

Perhaps you may also want to enlighten me as to why those people chose to have houses in London and not in Hongkong..paying double and triple digit millions..

Please check archives of economic thread.

[ashish raval]

Britain has a very very bad chequred past with is and has nothing to offer to us. If they offer us something like Russians did during '71 why not, but even then they should not be be forgiven for what they did for over 200 years to my nation.

And I am saying that every colonists had bad past and Britain is not exception and that includes bad kings in India who were not exactly saints either and you are conveniently ignoring these facts of atrocities committed by Indian kings on Indian population as well as other non British marauders of last 1000 years. You cannot look at history in isolation.

This is again a british/western argument that british united india and brits were far nicer than french/italians or spaniards. You are bordering on JNU/Aaptard liberal logic. India was never united the way westerners think of unification as a modern nation state. Even the unified india was way ahead of small britain. Not clear what you are trying to say in the underlined part. Keep your brishit sarcasm to yourself. Indians working overseas in this generation is a different breed as compared to that of past. It is going with the intent of coming back and many do come back.

Far from it. I am bemused that you are accusing me of arguing like MANY whereas if you look at posts of my last decade I have been warned for being right leaning arguments. India was not made poor by Britain alone. Industrial revolution and progress of science and mathematics from 15th century onwards in Europe meant that technology requiring people to do work slowly and produce goods was outdated and we and entire non European world declined in their trade contribution. This includes China too. You have to look at entire gamut of factors that led to lose of competitiveness, scientific pursuit and technological lack of competency as factors too as contribution in our decline this included samurai word makers of Japan too in the past. Even today without internet India and computers would not have progressed much beyond its state between 1993-1995 and so does the rest of world who suddenly had access to innovations and ideas as well as technical knowledge which resulted in leapfrog in east read India and China in last twenty years.

Indians who go outside has never returned and arguing that 1-3% comeback is like saying look I got mauled in wrestling but hey my leg is up in the air!! Does not mean anything by any standard. Period!! Heck even those who left to live in Chile, Guyana, Fiji or Mauritius or Africa do not return.

1. It is not my theory, entire branches of mathematics and physics are based on this presumption. If you dont agree to this, then i think you are missing teh recent wave of AI/ML/DL. But anyways not sure if anything material is happening in Britain on that field.

I work in the field which does this day in and day out with stochastic calculus and that very thing failed to predict 2007 crash even in worst case scenario. So you should take this things with a pinch of salt and stress the worst case even further to feel comfortable. The reason why Elon musk warns is because of this. Things can and will go wrong. The very reason you don't know what is happening in Britain in AI and Ml is indicative of how much you know Britain and how much of Britain is being shown to the world. You may perhaps be unaware about range of Jet engine (yes a range) technologies that British companies are working on that will make air travel hypersonic in 25 years any conventional jet engine technology 50 percent cheap and less emmitions..I am sure you don't know that 9/10 mobile chips in the world contains Cambridge based ArM designed chip and Japanese took this company private by paying 25 billion pounds due to their future work of Ai and ml chip design. Perhaps you would conveniently ignore number of noble laureates this nation produces every year being a tiny nation and would really blame noble committee being heavy British influenced too like Oscars. Isn't it? Feel free to do so.

They got huge amounts of money through marshal plan. yes we were not confident, and we were weakend by centuries of brishit kleptocracy and a significant factor was the fact that Nehruvians made 3 generations educate on the history of denouncing everything that was indian and keeping a large portion of nation on subsidy doles and below poverty line. The narrative was india has all the problems. That narrative has been dying its natural death our debate is the result of this.
So please try preaching this liberal gyan about forgetting history to Jews about HItler. I will not forget and ensure that everyone in my next generation of family knows that too.
As for Pukis: their time will come too. They will meet the same fate as austro hugarian empire.
For US:
1. I am not asking to sleep with US.
2. What US or anyeone else has done to india pales in comparison to what brishits did. Malsis came, they destroyed our temples and killed in war, but brishits looted us for 2-3 centuries and beggared us for next 100 years. In case you've forgotten it was brishits who created the boundaries, and brishit generals who caused all the mess in J&K not to forget tharki chicha. Without Indian loot they are gradually falling in their true place.
3. US is not our BFF but we have a common enemy in china & if there is some scope for cooperation why not.
4. In my interaction with Americans even rednecks, their only worry is Indians are taking their jobs and their kids are not getting jobs, but they acknowledge that Indians are hardworking and intelligent. Indian intelligence is considered as an aberration in Britain unless of course it comes with denouncing India and Indian hardwork is considered as an outcome of 'british discipline'. Remember S Chandrashekar's story? he had to leave UK and did wonders in US. Yes there are good folks there too, but I would rather say american individuals are way more appreciative of Indians. That has been my experience. You may have different, I can't help with that. My experience with brishits/yankees has been similar to a very good number of other Indians.

you are welcome to proselytize for brits, but i rather chose to stand tall against brishits and anyone else who is just wooing india without anything ot offer.

The very fact that you are blaming British for everything that is wrong in India without considering every other factors leading to decline of entire non European world saying that you have made up your mind.
Comparing atrocities on Jews with those by British is wrong logic too. I am not saying to forget it but Jews do not cloud their judgement about trade and commerce with Germany or Japanese on Americans after n bum attack in dealing with Americans. Hence we should not take historical baggage in trade talks and be practical and try to seek a good trade deal that should allow us to have a trade advantage.
I am choosing not to reply to your every point because of lack of time on my end and not conveniently ignoring anything.

[Karthik S]

And I am saying that every colonists had bad past and Britain is not exception and that includes bad kings in India who were not exactly saints either and you are conveniently ignoring these facts of atrocities committed by Indian kings on Indian population as well as other non British marauders of last 1000 years. You cannot look at history in isolation.

What nonsense? Do you want Indians to not trade with Indians? English with Scotts? (although this may happen with referendum 2.0)
What kind of sepoyness are you displaying. Because intra hindu kingdom wars happened, we need to forget what all atrocities britshits and islamic invaders did?

Far from it. I am bemused that you are accusing me of arguing like MANY whereas if you look at posts of my last decade I have been warned for being right leaning arguments. India was not made poor by Britain alone. Industrial revolution and progress of science and mathematics from 15th century onwards in Europe meant that technology requiring people to do work slowly and produce goods was outdated and we and entire non European world declined in their trade contribution. This includes China too. You have to look at entire gamut of factors that led to lose of competitiveness, scientific pursuit and technological lack of competency as factors too as contribution in our decline this included samurai word makers of Japan too in the past. Even today without internet India and computers would not have progressed much beyond its state between 1993-1995 and so does the rest of world who suddenly had access to innovations and ideas as well as technical knowledge which resulted in leapfrog in east read India and China in last twenty years.

Indians who go outside has never returned and arguing that 1-3% comeback is like saying look I got mauled in wrestling but hey my leg is up in the air!! Does not mean anything by any standard. Period!! Heck even those who left to live in Chile, Guyana, Fiji or Mauritius or Africa do not return.

Are you so naive to not understand colonialism cost us advancement in science and tech? How many industries your people shut down in India? How can people under occupation and subjugation invest in their own R&D? You think the colonizers will allow colonies to advance in R&D, science and tech?

I work in the field which does this day in and day out with stochastic calculus and that very thing failed to predict 2007 crash even in worst case scenario. So you should take this things with a pinch of salt and stress the worst case even further to feel comfortable. The reason why Elon musk warns is because of this. Things can and will go wrong. The very reason you don't know what is happening in Britain in AI and Ml is indicative of how much you know Britain and how much of Britain is being shown to the world. You may perhaps be unaware about range of Jet engine (yes a range) technologies that British companies are working on that will make air travel hypersonic in 25 years any conventional jet engine technology 50 percent cheap and less emmitions..I am sure you don't know that 9/10 mobile chips in the world contains Cambridge based ArM designed chip and Japanese took this company private by paying 25 billion pounds due to their future work of Ai and ml chip design. Perhaps you would conveniently ignore number of noble laureates this nation produces every year being a tiny nation and would really blame noble committee being heavy British influenced too like Oscars. Isn't it? Feel free to do so.

chacha would be proud that "loyal subjects" are continuing to this day. Do they allow you to take credit for all this there?

The very fact that you are blaming British for everything that is wrong in India without considering every other factors leading to decline of entire non European world saying that you have made up your mind.
Comparing atrocities on Jews with those by British is wrong logic too. I am not saying to forget it but Jews do not cloud their judgement about trade and commerce with Germany or Japanese on Americans after n bum attack in dealing with Americans. Hence we should not take historical baggage in trade talks and be practical and try to seek a good trade deal that should allow us to have a trade advantage.
I am choosing not to reply to your every point because of lack of time on my end and not conveniently ignoring anything.

"What part of UQ doesn't offer what we want" you don't understand? You may be great with all great innovations and all, but if you don't offer what I want, what good are you to me?

PS: you are just parroting "Oh my new country is great, they've accepted me, wow my country is so great in everything, we like to believe we are superior and great in everything, take what we give you and don't ask what you want, just take what we give you, oh we are so great". People like you are no different from people who side with Timur, babur etc. If you can understand what I am trying to say. So better stop indulging, you'll only pi$$ off many people here, because YES we did NOT forget millions of deaths, destruction that happened because of them. Don't you dare ask or suggest us to forget all that.

[ashish raval]

^^ I choose not to stoop to your level and will not reply henceforth. No offence.

[Karthik S]

^^ Don't think anyone here would want to be at your level after all EJ'sing about and absolving GB of their countless crimes, also asking other Indians to do the same. Likewise...

BTW, others can go through "Crimes of Britain" twitter handle to get more idea about their colonial times.

[ArjunPandit]

Thanks for the twitter link.
Karthik/Ashish,
Let's not get personal. Apologies if I did, but let's debate on points. For me Ashish's thought process is something worth debating and understanding because i prefer to lose a debate with one of my own rather than a britard.

[periaswamy]

If India can grab some of the market on one or more sectors over time, and grab trade from other countries that currently goes to Britain, that seems worthwhile. I think Financial Services and Banking was considered one of those, but Indian laws in those sectors may not match the flexbility of those in the UK, so the answer may lie in changing the laws to attract such sectors to India, so that India can compete with UK/London in those sectors over time, and remove food off their table. That would be sweet revenge.

[Virupaksha]

Oh please! ashish's argument at the crux is simple. It has another name as well - "slaves who liked slavery" argument
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainme ... ery/58678/

Karthik's on the other argument is transactinal. UK go and stand in the line - we will come when we have time and you have something we want - other than hotair of the behind.

[Karthik S]

If India can grab some of the market on one or more sectors over time, and grab trade from other countries that currently goes to Britain, that seems worthwhile. I think Financial Services and Banking was considered one of those, but Indian laws in those sectors may not match the flexbility of those in the UK, so the answer may lie in changing the laws to attract such sectors to India, so that India can compete with UK/London in those sectors over time, and remove food off their table. That would be sweet revenge.

+1 if you see SV and Wall Street, you'd find number of desis in similar proportion. I always wondered, IT picked up in India but not BFSI. Most likely because of the laws and probably because Finance is not as preferred line unlike Engineering and especially IT in India.

[ashish raval]

Thanks for the twitter link.
Karthik/Ashish,
Let's not get personal. Apologies if I did, but let's debate on points. For me Ashish's thought process is something worth debating and understanding because i prefer to lose a debate with one of my own rather than a britard.

Arjun it is not about winning or loosing a debate. What I am trying to establish is the path to choose on which we have control and our children's future prosperity lies. No one likes to be away from motherland and accounted with rubbish weather. Yet some choose to do so for career aspirations and reaching some milestones. The fact is
A) British rule was bad - yes. Can you do anything about it at the moment? No..so why worry on that point. When it comes to get even in 20 years time when we achieve self sufficiency in most sector that is when we should start getting even in the ring. I feel now is not the time. In two decades yes. China did the same thing.
whoever the poster about slaves liking slavery was everyone outside India is a slave to whichever country one calls karmabhumi. And if my karmabhumi helps me contribute more to my country in terms to 30/40/50 billion in repatriation per year then fine you can call me a slave. Now if you still to the level of saying me that I want to invest in india because I get double digit returns !! Go fish because I have earned 30 percent per year on average on my pensions portfolio per year in UK for last 10 years now. So the whole tenet that NRI investing India because it has superior returns is all hogwash and complete BS that see being used by many trying to argue. It may to true for uneducated worked working in building trade in dubai but certainly not true for any educated one with eyes and ears open.

I have nothing more to add on this because few people do name-calling without necessarily discussing the topic and think more emotionally than being practical and what is best for people in long run. I have made my point and still feel that we will get best deal in tumultuous times with Britain and if we seek to harp in history and not flexible then we might not achieve what we seek out anyway and yet loose ally who can really we gateway to Europe. It is not a win win for any. As i said if you are after revenge there will be a time and date for it too.

[panduranghari]

Go fish because I have earned 30 percent per year on average on my pensions portfolio per year in UK for last 10 years now.

Heh, thats impossible unless you are a maven. And if you were then you would be known via RVTV to this aam abdul. Only BTC has come close and that too within the last 11 months of the year 2017 - BTC is up 950% this year and 1000% over last 10. Gold up 10% this year, but has gone nowhere in the last 10. European junk debt is trading at a lower yield than AAA US govt bonds so you would have lost money holding to bonds. You known even Jeff Gundlach has not made 30% per year over the last 10. I think you are economical in truth.

[nachiket]

India should just conduct cold, hard business negotiation, which is what is happening. I am sure when the UK makes the necessary trade concessions to India, there will be a resurgence in trade relations between UK and India

This is my friend is what I am trying to talk since yesterday. Nothing more nothing less.

I am confused. Why the argument then? Cold, hard business interests is exactly why India is uninterested in a trade deal with the UK because we don't think they are willing to offer us what we want and they haven't done anything to dispel that notion or offer something else which is equally valuable. Short of that the present trade relations are acceptable to India.

[ArjunPandit]

ok Ashish making fun of you, hope you didnt get total 30% returns in last 10 years? Because if you get 30% return per year for all of 10 years...you are either running a ponzi scheme, drug cartel, or first profession or an deep learning optimized portfolio of all of above.

PS: Loosing or winning is about a debate not a war. I agree with your sentiment. You seem to have fallen in love with Britain nothing wrong with that we had a saying in college (dil aaya gadhi pe to hoor bhi kya cheez hai , take it in right spirit not insulting you in anyway). Having stayed in Singapore, London and NYC I love no city more than the polluted and unsafe Delhi and the pollen/curd raaisa of bangalore and murugan idly of chennai.
I can't change what you love and so cant you what I love. But what we can debate is what leads to betterment of India, we both have same objective but perhaps different path. Like Subhas and Nehru.

[periaswamy]

commentary on FT's oped

As India ups Britain on world stage, sourpuss daily writes obit of our democracy: Did you pick the wrong country, FT?
IndiaSreemoy TalukdarDec, 02 2017 11:33:03 IST

Virginia Woolf is believed to have assessed James Joyce's Ulysses as the "work of a queasy undergraduate scratching his pimples." It would be a little uncharitable, perhaps, to call the venerable Financial Times a queasy undergraduate. The London-based newspaper resembles instead the feudal lord of Satyajit Ray's Jalsaghar (The Music Room) who suffers from delusions of grandeur, trapped in memory of a glorious past while the palace crumbles and world passes him by.

Britannia is now better known as a biscuit. The Empire at last resembles the reality: A few islands squeezed between high seas. Having voted itself out of the European Union, Dame Britain is now undergoing anxiety pangs ahead of a bitter divorce.

Its economy is floundering, society is crumbling to the extent that it distrusts own citizens, its vaunted multiculturalism is facing threats from within and the only thing even remotely interesting emerging out of British shores these days is news of an ex-soldier getting hitched to an American actor.

But trust the wind bag editors of British newspapers to pretend as if it is their prerogative to issue certificates about the efficacy of global political systems. The sense of entitlement in its recent political commentary about impending "demise" of Indian democracy is staggering. It must be bothersome to still lug around the burden of orientalism seven decades after quitting Indian shores. To that extent, we should empathise. But our empathy should not be taken for granted.

The arrogance in the piece, at places, is so glorious that it feels amusing and tragic at the same time — just as in Ray's Jalsaghar where vanity compels the penniless aristocrat to outbid the upstart moneylender with his last few coins.

One can go on. The crux is that we don't need lessons from Britain on how to conduct ourselves any more than we need reparations. The islanders can keep their stolen Kohinoor and mental floss to themselves.

The ICJ vote has caused some severe pain for the brishit ego.

[ashish raval]

ok Ashish making fun of you, hope you didnt get total 30% returns in last 10 years? Because if you get 30% return per year for all of 10 years...you are either running a ponzi scheme, drug cartel, or first profession or an deep learning optimized portfolio of all of above.

PS: Loosing or winning is about a debate not a war. I agree with your sentiment. You seem to have fallen in love with Britain nothing wrong with that we had a saying in college (dil aaya gadhi pe to hoor bhi kya cheez hai , take it in right spirit not insulting you in anyway). Having stayed in Singapore, London and NYC I love no city more than the polluted and unsafe Delhi and the pollen/curd raaisa of bangalore and murugan idly of chennai.
I can't change what you love and so cant you what I love. But what we can debate is what leads to betterment of India, we both have same objective but perhaps different path. Like Subhas and Nehru.

Agreed bit of financial mathematics, portfolio theory, luck goes all the way.for the uninitiated here is a sample return which I used in the mix of risky assets to get these returns. Pound devaluation was a cherry on the cake in last five years.

http://www.hl.co.uk/funds/fund-discount ... ome/charts

There are of funds and you have right risk appetite and in the game you can get returns of type you like without being Ponzi too.

Now I don't have inherent love for Britain. I am just using cold hard facts as I have heard lot of tales and heresey and refuse to believe things which are peddled as facts without rigorous scrutiny. My brain says we should grab opportunity albeit cautiously and learn trick of trade and make India financial powerhouse of the east and world too so that when I retire we have a clock which shows IST in every office of the world and not just Tokyo, London and NYT.

[ashish raval]

Go fish because I have earned 30 percent per year on average on my pensions portfolio per year in UK for last 10 years now.

Heh, thats impossible unless you are a maven. And if you were then you would be known via RVTV to this aam abdul. Only BTC has come close and that too within the last 11 months of the year 2017 - BTC is up 950% this year and 1000% over last 10. Gold up 10% this year, but has gone nowhere in the last 10. European junk debt is trading at a lower yield than AAA US govt bonds so you would have lost money holding to bonds. You known even Jeff Gundlach has not made 30% per year over the last 10. I think you are economical in truth.

Well yeah that is what you are supposed to believe. Wake up and smell the coffee. I hear this talks from lot of mutual fund managers too including in desh. I really don't know what to say:

http://www.hl.co.uk/funds/fund-discount ... ion/charts

There are plenty like this but I am just giving example of average ones and not with highest risk because they might be too risky for some not for the ones who do their research and get lucky.

FANG returns over last five years had been very high too. If one got lucky and dipped at right time it could easily give high returns.

[Avtar Singh]

This thread has really kicked off!! It used to be a place of slumber.

Someone intimated earlier that I may not know what uk can or cannot produce, I know it very well.
Also the usa.

I was alluding to the fact that the FIRE sector far outways anything else in the AS econimies and India should
avoid letting these sectors get a foot hold in its economy. Trojan horses

Those wearing multiple hats are going to get roasted what ever side of the toast they cheer.

If you say something is good in Britain. Indians will say you traitor, it was all stolen (and it probably was).
If you say something is good in India. British will say you native go back home if it is so good.

Just human nature.

[Singha]

Can anyone name 5 big projects that UK private sector has undertaken in india in last 5 years?

Uk is nonexistent here except in scotch market

[Kashi]

Vodafone is UK no? Albeit more than five years.

I wonder what's the status of Cairns and their mega oil field in Rajasthan.

[Karthik S]

Vodafone is UK no? Albeit more than five years.

I wonder what's the status of Cairns and their mega oil field in Rajasthan.

Vodafone acquired Hutch. It wasn't direct investment.

[Singha]

https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201712 ... kids-food/
According to research from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation (JRF), one in five of the population of the UK is now living in poverty — eight million working age adults, four million children and nearly two million pensioners are unable to keep up with the cost of living in Britain.

--
the london elites continue to make huge money, but obviously all that butter does not spread much into other areas.

[A Deshmukh]

I was never comfortable with our presence in "Commonwealth" (actually means Common Loot).
IMHO, we should withdraw or reduce our presence or
we stake bigger claims - ex: start a Commonwealth Bank headquarters in Mumbai.

[rsingh]

^^
It is better to have a seat (and say) at as many as fora possible.

[Peregrine]

Vodafone is UK no? Albeit more than five years.

I wonder what's the status of Cairns and their mega oil field in Rajasthan.

Kashi Ji :

I think that Cairns India is now Owned by Agarwal and his Vedanta Group.

Cheers

[ashish raval]

Can anyone name 5 big projects that UK private sector has undertaken in india in last 5 years?

Uk is nonexistent here except in scotch market

Well this plus countless jobs created in service and IT sectors and back office jobs by big four and British banks might run in thousands.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/1056 ... deals.html

They are more Pharma, oil and Gas, IT, banks, insurance and accounting (big 4) jobs that are transferred to India. I have personally hired and trained two teams of approximately 10 persons each directly. They all were jobs which were highly paid ones in UK (six figures per year in pounds) but we being good at systems made sense to relocate. It took year to get upto speed but it was there because of high level of professionalism and good team workers. Few good ones were located from India to UK so in five years they have leadership built up for sustainable growth in India and transfer skills to offshore teams.
So it is working albeit behind the scenes and not in a big bang way that Japanese or Chinese work.

[Philip]

Will she last out until Christmas? It's "May-day" at No. 10.Despite all her ferevent efforts,"Mrs.T" is as close to a Brexit agreement as is the US and NoKo.
Her Irish partner,the DUP have "Dup-ed" her sabotaging her plan for N.ireland to stay with much of the EU positives.Will "Mrs. T",the pretender to the legendary original Mrs. T. survive the festive season or will she end up on the Christmas table? Frankly,it's past time to put her out of her misery.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 92526.html

Theresa May scrambles to save Brexit deal after DUP refuses to back her
The Prime Minister is briefing her Cabinet ministers and speaking to the DUP today

Joe Watts Political Editor

Arsenal and Liverpool face losing stars as United line up Prem star
Theresa May was scrambling to salvage her Brexit deal on Tuesday after her Northern Irish political partners pulled the plug on her attempt to secure a withdrawal agreement with the EU.

The Prime Minister was set to call the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party to convince her to back her proposals for what should happen with Northern Ireland’s land border after Brexit.

Downing Street indicated Ms May hoped to be back in Brussels before the end of the week to secure the agreement, after the DUP refused to accept plans that could have seen Belfast following a different regulatory regime than London.

READ MORE
Davidson warns against special Brexit deal for Northern Ireland
The Prime Minister was set to brief her Cabinet on Tuesday amid fallout of from the delay, as an ex-senior Foreign Office official said the row had been “damaging” for Ms May.

She has insisted she is still “confident” of securing a withdrawal deal, allowing her to get a green light for trade talks at the European Council summit starting December 14.

Failure to do so would risk throwing the whole Brexit process into crisis, with companies believed to be preparing to activate contingency plans to start moving staff and activities out of the UK if there are no signs of progress by Christmas.

It would also call into question her leadership, with backbenchers setting progress in the talks as a key test Ms May must pass to stay in power.

EU officials are understood to believe that a text of the deal must be thrashed out by the end of the week to allow it to be included in draft summit conclusions and give other leaders time to consult their own governments before convening in Brussels.

Former Foreign Office official Lord Ricketts said the row will leave EU leaders with the impression Ms May lacks the authority to get through Brexit negotiations.

READ MORE
Services sector slows sharply in November
Theresa May's Brexit bubble has been popped by the Irish border

The crossbench peer told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: “I mean, it's pretty extraordinary that this wasn't all stitched up with the DUP beforehand.

“We're used to prime ministers going to Brussels and having a row with the EU and coming back without an agreement, but to go agree with the EU and then have a row on your own side is inconvenient.”

He went on: “It leaves an impression, I think, in Brussels that the Prime Minister hasn't got authority over her own side and that will knock confidence in doing a final deal.”

Former Brexit minister David Jones said that the DUP’s intervention “demonstrates the precise strength of their position”.

Brexit: No deal in Brussels after Theresa May and Jean-Claude Juncker meeting to break deadlock
Ms May had to break off from talks with European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker on Monday for an urgent call with the DUP leader Arelene Foster, who declared her party's opposition to proposals on the table.

The plans would have imposed “regulatory alignment” between Northern Ireland and the Republic to avoid the need for a hard border.

Irish premier Leo Varadkar said that the deal had been agreed by the European Commission, UK and the Republic before the process was thrown into disarray by Ms Foster's eleventh-hour intervention.

Prominent Tory MPs voiced their opposition to any deal which threatened the territorial integrity of the United Kingdom by forcing Northern Ireland to operate under different regulations from the mainland.

Leading Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg said: “I don't think that can possibly happen. The Government doesn't have a majority for that.”

Leaders of devolved administrations in Scotland, Wales and London said they would want the option to adopt in their parts of the UK any special status afforded to Northern Ireland.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said the failure of talks showed Ms May's Government was “completely ill-equipped to negotiate a successful Brexit deal for our country”, while former Ukip leader Nigel Farage said she should “leave office now”.

[Philip]

The way towards a "perfect storm" in the future.Little Britain-istan is heading for abso chaos thanks to its asinine policies of the past and present in mollycoddling the jihadis who in recent times,bit the hand that fed them with multiple terror attacks.

The Brit govt. if it wants Britain to survive as a "Christian" state,must enact a law that limits a household to a max. no. of votes (not more than 4-parents plus two kids) ,with tax and other incentives for those with none or just one child. Those households which have more than 3 children will have their parents lose their voting rights since they are primarily responsible for the mainly Islamic population explosion thanks to decades of jihadi immigration. All new immigrants must never be allowed to vote,only their future children may be allowed to do so,provided the family remains small. The Germans can also follow likewise.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11 ... rd-influx/

Muslim population of the UK could triple to 13m following 'record' influx
Aisha Mosque and Islamic Centre in Walsall CREDIT: JOHN ROBERTSON
Olivia Rudgard, religious affairs correspondent
29 NOVEMBER 2017 • 11:01PM
The Muslim population of the UK is set to triple in 30 years, according to projections from the Pew Research Centre.

Under the model which assumes median migration levels, the number of Muslims in the country would rise from 4.1m in 2016 to 13m in 2050.

The US-based think tank says that the UK has been the major destination for economic migrants coming to Europe, while Germany has been the top destination for refugees.

It said the research followed a "record influx of asylum seekers fleeing conflicts in Syria and other predominantly Muslim countries".

The UK also has one of the largest gaps in fertility rates between Muslims and non-Muslims, with Muslim women having an average of 2.9 children compared to the 1.8 had by non-Muslims.

This means that even if migration were to stop completely, the group's population share would rise by more than 3 per cent in the UK, as well as in France, Italy, and Belgium.

The paper suggests that if migration continues at the same rate but refugee movement stops, the UK will have the highest overall population of Muslims in the EU, at 13m, making up 16.7 per cent of the population.

Currently the country is behind Germany and France in overall population of Muslims.

"Relatively few recent immigrants to the UK (60,000) were refugees, but more than 1.5 million regular migrants arrived there in recent years.

"Overall, an estimated 43 per cent of all migrants to the UK between mid-2010 and mid-2016 were Muslims," the paper said.

Muslim men pray at Baitul Futuh Mosque in Morden on February 18, 2011
The UK has one of the lower levels of hostility toward refugees from Iraq and Syria CREDIT: DAN KITWOOD/GETTY IMAGES
The study also shows that the UK has one of the lower levels of hostility toward refugees from Iraq and Syria.

Just over one in three people see them as a major threat, compared to 39 per cent in France, 42 per cent in Spain and 60 per cent in Poland.

It concluded that people in countries with lower overall numbers of refugees were more likely to believe they were a threat.

According to figures from the Oxford-based Migration Observatory, one in five non-UK born people in the UK is Muslim.

[ramana]

the Irish border question is like this:
- Ireland and North Ireland are an economic unit and need open border as they are one island.
- Ireland got a deal for virtual border with the regulatory alignment phrase which is softer than the earlier phrase.
- This did not please the DUP who seem to be Ulster hotheads. They fear eventual merger down the road as UK goes down.
- EU is backing its member who is most impacted by #Brexit and wont go to phase two of the talks.

All this shows lack of coordination and understanding the drivers by May cabinet....

[Suraj]

A couple of Irish people I know who were previously GC holders are acquiring US citizenship because of a combination of uncertainty about US politics and reflexive concerns about the political and peace situation at home deteriorating in relation to Brexit.

[ashish raval]

the Irish border question is like this:
- Ireland and North Ireland are an economic unit and need open border as they are one island.
- Ireland got a deal for virtual border with the regulatory alignment phrase which is softer than the earlier phrase.
- This did not please the DUP who seem to be Ulster hotheads. They fear eventual merger down the road as UK goes down.
- EU is backing its member who is most impacted by #Brexit and wont go to phase two of the talks.

All this shows lack of coordination and understanding the drivers by May cabinet....

Guru to be fair EU is out there to teach lesson to Britain so that no there nations out there can remotely think about any referendum. It is supranational body which is out there to protect EU nations and not allow any other nations export things other than on their terms.

Indian GoI must have a fair bit of idea if they manage to go through any chapters of trade agreement with them in last decade. Turkey has managed one chapter out if more than 50 out there in twenty five years.

EU wants regulatory convergence with itself for NI because it thinks that all trade business of Dublin will move to NI if Belfast comes up with ultra low taxation regime and NI just dumps all cargo into Ireland, backdoor to migration to Europe, services will just relocate to NI. If they convergence with EU there are less chances of eating a pie.

[Philip]

The beauty is that the Scots have immediately demanded the same open border offered to the irish,which Mrs. "T" the pretender,is unsuccessful in selling to her coalition N.Irish DUP.She;s being "Dup-ed" say the media and the EU hadman,Juncker,wonders whether she will last the week if no Brexit deal is agreed upon from the British side.As I predicted,Mrs.May may be the turkey stuffed for the Christmas table!
I know that the Duke of Wellington said that the "Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton",but the modern day Defeats of the Brits against Daesh and elsewhere could be attributed to Brits "playing with their 'fiddles' in the loos of Eton"!

"Enter the Buffoon".,BoJo the Old Etonian and Bullingdon Club bozo,now the British For. Sec.,who wants to go " back to the future" ,a return of the Raj to do battle in old familiar battlegrounds of its imperial past and let Britain enjoy its sado-macho pleasure of getting its backside ripped open again by the "fuzzy-wuzzies" and Afghanis! A Kipling lover,who recently got his knickers in a twist while in Burma quoting Kip undiplomatically,he perhaps forgot Kip's famous poem about the Young British Soldier.

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

One is sure that the likes of ISIS and the Talibs would give Boris and co. a very warm welcome!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12 ... s-johnson/

Britain must return to war zones in Middle East, says Boris Johnson

Boris Johnson has said Britain can play its part in solving the crises in the Middle East CREDIT: ADRIAN DENNIS/AFP
Peter Foster, europe editor
6 DECEMBER 2017 • 10:30PM
Britain must dare to step back into some of the world’s most intractable conflict zones in the Middle East to avoid decades of further terror and instability, Boris Johnson will say on Thursday.

In a speech setting out his vision for foreign policy after Brexit, the Foreign Secretary argues that the scars left by Western interventions in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya must not paralyse Britain’s willingness to engage.

“British foreign policy is not the problem; it is part of the solution,” he will say, arguing that the troubles in Syria, Yemen and the wider Middle East “have been exacerbated not so much by Western meddling as by our aloofness”.

[JE Menon]

Yeah, definitely. Boris can aid that effort by starting with a haircut and a comb.

[ashish raval]

Lol. Alternatives to May are worse Bojo and right Rees mogg. If UK cannot get a deal with May thrn they will never get it. In which case it will be hard brexit under WTO rules. UK businesses have been told about it already. Banks have been stress testing worst scenarios than hard brexit with unemployment to 15 percent from March this year now and house price crash of 50 percent. They will continue reporting numbers on that basis and BoE will be monitoring their capital based on thrm. So far it looks ok to me. Under WTO german cars will be expensive to buy. With passporting rights gone UK financials services will have to open satellite offices in Dublin or Frankfurt or Luxembourg with a office cleaner and receptionist to route the call to UK.

[Prem]

So this Johal guy confesses the links with UK Khalistani and Paki .

[Karthik S]

Bloomberg‏Verified account
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More
A Brexit deal is reached:

• EU hails this "compromise"
• In our best interests, May says
• Promises no hard Irish border
• EU ready to turn to transition
• Guarantees for EU citizens
• Britain commits financially
• Pound is little changed

[Peregrine]

Cheers