Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 12 Jun 2018 22:00

Stamps can be easily faked by any printing shop

Immi database is next problem but we know railway touts and some officials corner a chunk of tickets by writing the database from inside...

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby chetak » 13 Jun 2018 12:05

Return of illegal immigrants: Sushma Swaraj stopped Narendra Modi from signing pact with U.K.



Return of illegal immigrants: Sushma Swaraj stopped Narendra Modi from signing pact with U.K.

Suhasini Haidar
Vijaita Singh
New Delhi,
June 13, 2018



The decision by the government to pull out of the agreement just three months after Minister of State for Home Kiren Rijiju had signed an MoU on the return of illegal immigrants has led to growing tensions between Britain and India.

A last-minute intervention by External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj was responsible for ensuring that Prime Minister Narendra Modi did not sign a key agreement on taking back illegal immigrants when he visited the U.K. in April, senior officials in New Delhi and London confirmed to The Hindu.

The decision by the government to pull out of the agreement just three months after Minister of State for Home Kiren Rijiju had signed a Memorandum of Understanding on the return of undocumented Indian migrants has led to growing tensions between Britain and India. The pending issue was raised by U.K. officials during the Home Affairs dialogue last month, said a statement by the British High Commission, and was also raised by visiting British Minister Susan Williams when she met Mr. Rijiju in Delhi on Monday.

“On May 30, U.K. and Indian government officials held constructive talks on a range of home affairs issues, including returns. We continue to discuss finalising an MoU on returns and hope that this will be ratified and implemented as soon as possible,” the British High Commission spokesperson said in reply to a specific query from The Hindu, adding that the agreement would “pave the way for a quicker and more efficient process for documenting and returning Indian nationals who are in the U.K. illegally”.

A senior government official said the MoU was signed in January by Mr. Rijiju after due approval from the Union Cabinet and going back on the “sovereign assurance” had put India in an embarrassing position. Ahead of Mr. Modi’s visit to the U.K. (April 17-20), an MEA official briefing journalists had flagged the returns agreements as a key outcome. However on April 18, the agreement was not among the 25 MoUs and Agreements signed after the meeting between Mr. Modi and his counterpart Theresa May.

The official said the agreement was pulled from the list because Ms. Swaraj had reservations about a key provision in the pact that gave Indian agencies around 15 days to verify the antecedents of an undocumented migrant. “The 15-day duration was for those Indians who had been caught living illegally in the U.K. but were in possession of valid documents. So the 15-day limit was to verify their credentials. This was not agreed to by the Foreign Minister,” said another official.

During her maiden visit to India on November 7, 2016, Ms. May had said that the U.K. would consider an improved visa deal “if at the same time we can step up the speed and volume of returns of Indians with no right to remain in the U.K.”

As per the original MoU, the security agencies in India were to verify the antecedents of documentless illegal immigrants in the U.K. within 72 days. If no report was given within the time frame, the illegal immigrant would be deported automatically.

A senior MEA official said the government decided to take a fresh look at the agreement after the Cabinet clearance as the National Security Adviser’s office conveyed to the MEA that the 15-day limit was “unworkable” for security officials.

“At the same time the Indian High Commission had sent a file with suggestions that we only sign with the U.K. if they give us concessions on visas for professionals and extensions which the Chinese get. Ms. Swaraj then ordered that the agreement be revaluated and renegotiated if necessary,” said the official

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby srin » 13 Jun 2018 13:46

In the face of Windrush scandal, the automatic deportation would be unthinkable.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby souravB » 14 Jun 2018 06:41

found this article, it seems copy pasted from some other source.
http://idrw.org/make-operation-bluestar-files-public-uk-judge-to-british-govt/#more-172586
A UK judge has ordered the declassification of documents that are expected to shed further light on Britain’s involvement in Operation Bluestar in 1984, dismissing the government’s argument that the move could damage diplomatic ties with India.

A new pandora's box? if any Guru can teach this noob.. :mrgreen:

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 14 Jun 2018 08:23

The discussion topics of this thread reveal the total irrelevance of uk to indias strategic future

Immigration , fugitives , vacation spot ... nothing we really need is sourced from the uk as a single source or best priced item.

As a thorn under our butt it exists but it really has no big cards to play expect modulate how much of a thorn they want to be

Theresa may came and went without any ripple like the jayanagar mla paying goodwill visit to bellandur

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Philip » 14 Jun 2018 10:02

UK thrown out of an EU $13B defence programme.With Brexit the UK is being shown the door by its EU partners no more in strat. defence programmes.This one, a multi- nation prof. for advanced UCAVs.Therefore the UK has little option but to become a vassal province of the US and try and plead with its former colonies of the Commonwealth to buy British! This is a good time for India to try and strike some hard deals for defence TOT like engine tech from RR and other tech in aerospace and defence as it has major global leaders still like BAe encompassing aerospace tech and missile tech too, shipbuilding,etc.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby chetak » 14 Jun 2018 10:52

Philip wrote:UK thrown out of an EU $13B defence programme.With Brexit the UK is being shown the door by its EU partners no more in strat. defence programmes.This one, a multi- nation prof. for advanced UCAVs.Therefore the UK has little option but to become a vassal province of the US and try and plead with its former colonies of the Commonwealth to buy British! This is a good time for India to try and strike some hard deals for defence TOT like engine tech from RR and other tech in aerospace and defence as it has major global leaders still like BAe encompassing aerospace tech and missile tech too, shipbuilding,etc.


wait until the bones have been picked dry. EU is doing a very good job of it. US is not too interested because a much weakened britshit is not in their interest to ally with. They don't want another hanger on type parasite.

The UK is very conversant with "marketing" strategies used to secure business in this part of the world. Fully expect them to try all their wiles, sacrifice some loser local company to bring about a more conducive "environment" for themselves to operate in India like in the days of yore. That means only one set of guys who understand their westland tactics.

Do not open the doors now. Most of what they want to preserve in their MIC or the big ticket items for sale have very few countries as targets like India on their radar.

They have started to take deliveries of the F35 and it remains to be seen how much they are able to support the US MIC in the way that the US is used to when dealing with "friendly" countries.

The US push for alternate MIC markets away from the EU and the UK has already begun.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ashish raval » 14 Jun 2018 12:20

Some cheer to Indian medics awaiting visa
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-44477095

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby rsingh » 14 Jun 2018 13:56

RR anounces 4000 job cuts. Very low hanging fruit. Specially when there are not enough planes. It tells something about poor management. Loha garam hei, maar do hathoda.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby IndraD » 14 Jun 2018 17:52

As if St Kitts / Belgian / Indian passport was not enough. UK has apparently informed India that Nirav Modi has Singapore passport.
He has fled UK & now hiding in Belgium https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... ign=iOSapp

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby chetak » 14 Jun 2018 18:38

rsingh wrote:RR anounces 4000 job cuts. Very low hanging fruit. Specially when there are not enough planes. It tells something about poor management. Loha garam hei, maar do hathoda.


If anyone thinks that RR is up for sale or even equity dilution, please remember that the UK govt has absolute say in this matter. It matters not a whit that RR may be privately owned but it is a company dealing with matters of national security/technology leadership and it is vital for the company to remain in brit control.

Didn't trump stop the sale of an amreki chip company to china??

The deal, which would have seen China-backed Canyon Bridge Capital Partners acquire Lattice Semiconductors, was blocked over national security concerns.

"Today, consistent with the administration's commitment to take all actions necessary to ensure the protection of U.S. national security, the president issued an order prohibiting the acquisition," Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin said in a statement Wednesday.

The national security risk included "the potential transfer of intellectual property" to the Chinese-backed company and the "Chinese government's role in supporting this transaction," according to Mnuchin's statement.

India, and especially India, will not be allowed anywhere near RR (MIL or Aero) under any circumstances.

RR the car is really chicken shit as far as technology is concerned, especially when there is almost nil demand for the cars in India or the capacity of India to adapt such technology into its cars or even its markets is non existent.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 Jun 2018 19:13

but can individuals be targetted with fat packages. It will be far cheap and easy to get individuals rather than buying the company. may be if we get say 10-20 people experienced. While they might have luxury of data. They might still be able to set the ball rolling for us. In these matters we really need to be scavenger. Hunt if you can, else rely on leftovers. That's how US or russians accelerated their rocket programs.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby chetak » 14 Jun 2018 20:44

ArjunPandit wrote:but can individuals be targetted with fat packages. It will be far cheap and easy to get individuals rather than buying the company. may be if we get say 10-20 people experienced. While they might have luxury of data. They might still be able to set the ball rolling for us. In these matters we really need to be scavenger. Hunt if you can, else rely on leftovers. That's how US or russians accelerated their rocket programs.


They may have let go low level guys.

They will never let go the cream.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby siva509 » 14 Jun 2018 21:11

ArjunPandit wrote:but can individuals be targetted with fat packages. It will be far cheap and easy to get individuals rather than buying the company. may be if we get say 10-20 people experienced. While they might have luxury of data. They might still be able to set the ball rolling for us. In these matters we really need to be scavenger. Hunt if you can, else rely on leftovers. That's how US or russians accelerated their rocket programs.

The logic is good, but a company as big as RR wont keep their IP in such a loose fashion.
Our private sector is good in getting tie-ups and get the IP at throw away prices on opportune time without loosing their mutual trust.
A case in point is a British company called Narcros, which had tie up with Indian company since late 90's. During the financial crisis, the British company needed to sell something to keep them alive (Their Pension liabilities are far higher proportion than their balance sheet, 10k are retired with final salary scheme and less than a 1k are in current payroll with interest rate dived their reserves cannot cope with the liabilities) So they sold their JV to their Indian partner, and this is now a major Indian brand.(Hint: H&R Johnson Tiles). There are lots and lots of IP in automation(AB dynamics), Robotics (ex. Ocado) present in UK, which can be grabbed at opportune time but we need to keep ours open minded to getting tie-ups.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby rsingh » 14 Jun 2018 23:08

Check saar as you know elections won and lost over 1000th of supermarket jobs. These are more than 4000 high tech jobs. Enter plus Britishit. So headmistress is in for rough time.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby anupmisra » 15 Jun 2018 00:12

Extradition treaty between UK and India, circa 1992. Read Articles 2, 3, 4, and, in particular, 5.

http://treaties.fco.gov.uk/docs/pdf/1994/TS0013.pdf

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 15 Jun 2018 00:50

IndraD wrote:As if St Kitts / Belgian / Indian passport was not enough. UK has apparently informed India that Nirav Modi has Singapore passport.
He has fled UK & now hiding in Belgium https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... ign=iOSapp

Singapore does not permit dual citizenship in adults. More specifically, you cannot hold a Singapore passport and another. Singapore nationals can have latent citizenship with another country, but you can't claim it. GoI should talk to Singapore - their MoFA will invalidate his passport once the facts are presented to them.

That cuts it down to Belgium and St.Kitts, both of which permit dual citizenship. The latter is a boutique passport one can buy their way into, and quite a powerful one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requ ... s_citizens

The extradition treaty , and probably for that matter any extradition treaty more than a few years old, probably does not treat economic crimes effectively. It leaves open a lot of scope to redefine economic crimes as political witchhunts.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby chetak » 15 Jun 2018 01:27

Suraj wrote:
IndraD wrote:As if St Kitts / Belgian / Indian passport was not enough. UK has apparently informed India that Nirav Modi has Singapore passport.
He has fled UK & now hiding in Belgium https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... ign=iOSapp

Singapore does not permit dual citizenship in adults. More specifically, you cannot hold a Singapore passport and another. Singapore nationals can have latent citizenship with another country, but you can't claim it. GoI should talk to Singapore - their MoFA will invalidate his passport once the facts are presented to them.

That cuts it down to Belgium and St.Kitts, both of which permit dual citizenship. The latter is a boutique passport one can buy their way into, and quite a powerful one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requ ... s_citizens

The extradition treaty , and probably for that matter any extradition treaty more than a few years old, probably does not treat economic crimes effectively. It leaves open a lot of scope to redefine economic crimes as political witchhunts.


Nirav Modi seems to have intelligently gamed it and meticulously planned the bank scam as well as the escape.

How did he get so many passports issued on his name from different countries?? Maybe having more than what had been identified. He would have burned baboo(n)s in many counteries by now as each country homes in on who issued the passports

He seems to be running rings around the GoI.

I am sure that his contacts in India at many levels would have already been identified and hope that suitable screws are being turned and some fingernails are being pulled.
Last edited by chetak on 15 Jun 2018 01:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 15 Jun 2018 01:35

I don't really see it that way. In general, it's extremely hard to police the question of dual citizenship. These are two separate issues, and it's not clear which bucket the guy fits into:
* Has an Indian passport and Singapore/Belgium/St Kitts.
* OCI with the other passports.

Either way, once it's been established that he entered Belgium on another passport, Singapore can void their passport. Now for the other two. I know from my own eligibility experience (to UK nationality that I've had eligibility from birth but never obtained) that their law acknowledges multiple citizenships , but that they require you to declare all your foreign passports.

It's still a complex task to work out the process of extraditing someone like that back. It depends not as much on what internal passport or citizenship rules we have, but what kind of danda we can wield internationally.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby anupmisra » 15 Jun 2018 02:10

Suraj wrote:it's not clear which bucket the guy fits into:
* Indian/Singapore/Belgium/St Kitts.
It's still a complex task to work out the process of extraditing someone like that back.


The question to pose to the Indian police is "which country's law has Nirav Modi broken".

If he voluntarily and legally gave up his Indian citizenship (which is doubtful) and acquired another's, ask that country to extradite him from yUK. Hopefully, Singapore, Belgium and St. Kitts have similar treaties with yUK and hopefully India has extradition treaties with those nations to prevent such financial frauds. It would have to be a trilateral arrangement.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby nachiket » 15 Jun 2018 02:15

St. Kitts does not have an extradition treaty with India. I don't know if they have one with the UK. Even if they do, the Brits will not ask for extradition since Nirav Modi hasn't broken the law in Britain that we are aware of. In any event, the Brits have one Indian fugitive already living there that they aren't extraditing. No reason to think they might go the extra mile for this fellow.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Prem » 15 Jun 2018 02:35

chetak wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:but can individuals be targetted with fat packages. It will be far cheap and easy to get individuals rather than buying the company. may be if we get say 10-20 people experienced. While they might have luxury of data. They might still be able to set the ball rolling for us. In these matters we really need to be scavenger. Hunt if you can, else rely on leftovers. That's how US or russians accelerated their rocket programs.They may have let go low level guys.
They will never let go the cream.


There was documentary last year showing only 3rd or 4th generation white Brits are hired by RR to work with Core technologies.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 15 Jun 2018 02:36

anupmisra wrote:
Suraj wrote:it's not clear which bucket the guy fits into:
* Indian/Singapore/Belgium/St Kitts.
It's still a complex task to work out the process of extraditing someone like that back.


The question to pose to the Indian police is "which country's law has Nirav Modi broken".

If he voluntarily and legally gave up his Indian citizenship (which is doubtful) and acquired another's, ask that country to extradite him from yUK. Hopefully, Singapore, Belgium and St. Kitts have similar treaties with yUK and hopefully India has extradition treaties with those nations to prevent such financial frauds. It would have to be a trilateral arrangement.

Isn't it self evident at this point ? He's a fugitive from justice in an economic crime in India. He tried to use the Section V of the extradition treaty to help gain asylum in UK, but clearly they told him he's not 'politically persecuted' but just a crook. So now he's back in Belgium, where he apparently has a passport.

The question at this point is, does he also have an Indian passport ? He can't be deported from Belgium if he has a passport (nationality assures right of return so no deportation) but he can be extradited. However, the EU laws make that painful. There's not enough known about this Indian nationality status, or when/how he acquired Belgian nationality. His St.Kitts passport is just purchased freedom of movement. He can only use it realistically to move, not to stay.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby IndraD » 15 Jun 2018 03:40

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/has-ni ... ssion=true
Nirav has ILR? travelled many times in & out of UK in March on revoked Indian passport
a source said it was contemplating filing extradition requests with multiple countries since the diamantaire was constantly switching locations.

Both fled the country with their family members just before PNB filed a case against them with the CBI. Immediately after, the ED registered a money laundering case against them under Prevention of Money Laundering Act.
The ED has received information that Modi travelled to the UK multiple times using his revoked Indian passport in March. The ED had given details of Modi’s six passports to the foreign ministry. However, it could not be ascertained how he travelled on a revoked passport.
The ED has also approached Interpol through the CBI for a red corner notice against Modi. The agency has seized assets worth over Rs 3,000 crore belonging to Modi and his associates. A source said Mehul Choksi is currently in the US and a similar extradition request against him will be filed after the ED files a chargesheet against him.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby anupmisra » 15 Jun 2018 05:00

nachiket wrote:the Brits will not ask for extradition since Nirav Modi hasn't broken the law in Britain that we are aware of.


That is exactly what the extradition treaty states. He does not have to break the law in UK. If he broke the law in the requesting country (in this case the passport of the country modi holds), Britain is obligated to return him to that country. Articles 2-5.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 15 Jun 2018 08:34

yes
extradition is a pull
deportation is a push

brits can deport on their own
brits can extradite based on some request

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 15 Jun 2018 08:37

in other news a retired SC judge will lead a internal enquiry into the chanda kocchar matter.

dont know if its a home team whitewash arranged by a chummy board or fair

in parallel the CBI, IT and ED must form their own JSOC team and investigate

cannot have the CEO of the 2nd largest bank being on the take - if the evidence is credible enough

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 15 Jun 2018 09:23

Singha wrote:yes
extradition is a pull
deportation is a push

brits can deport on their own
brits can extradite based on some request

Citizens cannot be deported from their home countries. Only resident aliens can be deported. The only exception is when citizenship is stripped. Deportation is a process of removal due to immigration laws; therefore it cannot apply to citizens because citizenship guarantees right of return.

Extradition yes, one can extradite their own citizens to face trial elsewhere. This is not worldwide, though. Some countries will extradite their own citizens out, but most don't . It's listed here:
Laws on extradition of citizens
As a PDF world map
In summary:
India: allows extradition of citizens
UK: allows extradition of citizens
Belgium: allows within EU framework and standards applied, but sentence must be served in Belgium
St Kitts: no idea

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby chetak » 15 Jun 2018 10:47

Prem wrote:
chetak wrote:


There was documentary last year showing only 3rd or 4th generation white Brits are hired by RR to work with Core technologies.


Whatever the pay, no brit is going to work for you.

They and others like them around the world are protecting and will continue to protect core technologies. Such technologies are the new national crown jewels.

is it a mere coincidence that even some country like russia has consistently denied India access to such technology??.

Just like we are fighting our way through the technology denial maze in space technology, we have to do something similar here. Quietly find, attract, induce, compensate and use such people by mirroring and adapting techniques employed by somebody like AQ khan, for example.

There is no low hanging fruit for us to pluck.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby rsingh » 15 Jun 2018 19:36

RR guy arrested for spying for China.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby chetak » 15 Jun 2018 19:59

rsingh wrote:RR guy arrested for spying for China.



That's one way to go. :)

It works sometimes and produces good results for the hans.

Now, to find ourselves some cooperative chinese.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Neshant » 15 Jun 2018 20:46

It will be interesting either way it goes to see what the outcome is.

I predict they will claim he has now left the country and stash him in a third country.

But any country that shelters this guy is one India will remember in all future diplomatic and economic dealings.

------

Has Nirav Modi got Mallya-like stay permit, India asks UK

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 594092.cms

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 15 Jun 2018 20:56

Nirav Modi supposedly has an EU (Belgium) passport. That gives him freedom of movement, at least until Brexit. He doesn't need an ILR like Mallya does.

What I do not know is how does Mallya get to Monaco this year. Is there pictoral proof of it ? If he just has an Indian passport (now revoked) with ILR, they he can only remain (i.e. indefinite leave to remain - ILR) in UK, not travel .

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby souravB » 15 Jun 2018 20:57

chetak wrote:
Whatever the pay, no brit is going to work for you.

They and others like them around the world are protecting and will continue to protect core technologies. Such technologies are the new national crown jewels.

is it a mere coincidence that even some country like russia has consistently denied India access to such technology??.

Just like we are fighting our way through the technology denial maze in space technology, we have to do something similar here. Quietly find, attract, induce, compensate and use such people by mirroring and adapting techniques employed by somebody like AQ khan, for example.

There is no low hanging fruit for us to pluck.

I would like to differ from that. A British engineer would just be another engineer working for providing family. Properly compensated will absolutely work unless there is any physical or psychological constraint for him.
Our problem is we ask Governments to give us their complete existing technology which nobody will give, instead of hiring key individual people to target the specific problem.
one example would be the designing of Marut by the German guy, we lacked expertise on that front and we took help. May be a top production engineer now would help us identify the problem areas in LCA or other defense equipment production line faster churning of finished product.
We need to identify the problem area on the nano level and take/buy help from people who have done it before. No shame in that.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 15 Jun 2018 22:41

he setup a vr room in uk for monaco gp

Suraj
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 15 Jun 2018 22:43

Singha wrote:he setup a vr room in uk for monaco gp

Thanks, that makes sense. If he has just a revoked Indian passport, and British ILR, he cannot leave UK since he has no valid travel document. Probably he will petition for citizenship like Nadeem did in the past. I'm guessing his status as a recognized fugitive may impact his naturalization. But then, the Brits have not shown as yet that it even hurts his ILR.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby g.sarkar » 16 Jun 2018 03:29

souravB wrote:I would like to differ from that. A British engineer would just be another engineer working for providing family. Properly compensated will absolutely work unless there is any physical or psychological constraint for him.
Our problem is we ask Governments to give us their complete existing technology which nobody will give, instead of hiring key individual people to target the specific problem.
one example would be the designing of Marut by the German guy, we lacked expertise on that front and we took help. May be a top production engineer now would help us identify the problem areas in LCA or other defense equipment production line faster churning of finished product.
We need to identify the problem area on the nano level and take/buy help from people who have done it before. No shame in that.

I remember a German engineer that spent a long time in India installing and commissioning steel plants. I think it was 18 months once and 7 months another time during the late 60s. He did have to take the permission of the German government and get a medical clearance. I think you are talking of Kurt Tank who designed aircraft for India. But that was after 1945 and the end of WWII. There were many unemployed specialists then looking to leave Germany. The German government had collapsed and most well known people went to USA or USSR. Mr. Trunk himself tried other countries before India. Things are different now. India may still get experts in the former USSR nations that may be willing to allow people to leave. But if you want someone from USA, Germany or Western Europe, I am sure there will be obstacles that will prevent them to come to India and divulge secrets that has taken decades to develop.
Gautam

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby chetak » 16 Jun 2018 09:33

g.sarkar wrote:
souravB wrote:I would like to differ from that. A British engineer would just be another engineer working for providing family. Properly compensated will absolutely work unless there is any physical or psychological constraint for him.
Our problem is we ask Governments to give us their complete existing technology which nobody will give, instead of hiring key individual people to target the specific problem.
one example would be the designing of Marut by the German guy, we lacked expertise on that front and we took help. May be a top production engineer now would help us identify the problem areas in LCA or other defense equipment production line faster churning of finished product.
We need to identify the problem area on the nano level and take/buy help from people who have done it before. No shame in that.

I remember a German engineer that spent a long time in India installing and commissioning steel plants. I think it was 18 months once and 7 months another time during the late 60s. He did have to take the permission of the German government and get a medical clearance. I think you are talking of Kurt Tank who designed aircraft for India. But that was after 1945 and the end of WWII. There were many unemployed specialists then looking to leave Germany. The German government had collapsed and most well known people went to USA or USSR. Mr. Trunk himself tried other countries before India. Things are different now. India may still get experts in the former USSR nations that may be willing to allow people to leave. But if you want someone from USA, Germany or Western Europe, I am sure there will be obstacles that will prevent them to come to India and divulge secrets that has taken decades to develop.
Gautam


I know people who went to school with Kurt Tank's son in Bangalore.

Those days were very different. Germany had collapsed and the US, USSR and the UK along with many countries had legitimized the poaching of german engineers simply because they forced many such engineers to work for them under threat of life or liberty.

Literally, to the victor, the spoils.

I don't care how those very countries would justify their actions today.

If the same has to be done today, it may have to be done quietly and secretly.

A lot of the latterday advances in aeronautical and space technology can be traced back to their stolen german roots.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby dinesh_kimar » 16 Jun 2018 13:45

Getting foreign experts to work in one's own country is still possible. This has been seen in various Iraqi, French, Japanese and other National programs.

The main two factors are:
1. Political will to develop the technology in- house.
2. Budget set aside to see this through.

Japan with Oyashio submarine in 1960s (hull welding, special steel, propulsion plant,etc.).- German specialists for all the above.

France with ATAR engine for various Mirages from 1950-1977 used German specialists .

Iraq used German specialists from DLR for nose cone tech, and also Centrifuge tech and high speed bearings from MAN AG. The sarin and vx gas plant commissioning and adding gas to artillery shells was also done.I think , from memory, a German company named Mannesmann helped with all this .

These guys are available , and willing.

As JayS said in one of earlier posts, it doesn't matter what the guy on the street thinks, the decision maker on the top is all that matters.

I wish MP had asked for a flying Kaveri , " whatever it takes" , in 2014 itself, with 2500 cr budget, along with going for deep negotiations with some US dude named Ashton Carter. IMHO, the naughty scenes in Nick Carter is preferable to naughty demands by Ashton Carter.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby chetak » 16 Jun 2018 13:55

dinesh_kimar wrote:Getting foreign experts to work in one's own country is still possible. This has been seen in various Iraqi, French, Japanese and other National programs.

The main two factors are:
1. Political will to develop the technology in- house.
2. Budget set aside to see this through.

Japan with Oyashio submarine in 1960s (hull welding, special steel, propulsion plant,etc.).- German specialists for all the above.

France with ATAR engine for various Mirages from 1950-1977 used German specialists .

Iraq used German specialists from DLR for nose cone tech, and also Centrifuge tech and high speed bearings from MAN AG. The sarin and vx gas plant commissioning and adding gas to artillery shells was also done.I think , from memory, a German company named Mannesmann helped with all this .

These guys are available , and willing.

As JayS said in one of earlier posts, it doesn't matter what the guy on the street thinks, the decision maker on the top is all that matters.

I wish MP had asked for a flying Kaveri , " whatever it takes" , in 2014 itself, with 2500 cr budget, along with going for deep negotiations with some US dude named Ashton Carter. IMHO, the naughty scenes in Nick Carter is preferable to naughty demands by Ashton Carter.


There is some unwritten protocol that a consultant will not be paid more than a certain amount, relative to the salary of the top man in the lab or department.

I remember when my clients used to send me business class tickets, my "boss" couldn't contain his jealousy and would invariably grab them for himself.

These are the types of SOBs who scuttle any worthwhile effort and they are present in every organisation.


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