Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

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Suresh S
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suresh S » 09 Jan 2019 06:10

I have no respect for indian soldiers(nor should any thinking Indian) who died in the first or second world wars or other wars for the britshit. At best they were mercenaries at worst traitors to mother India. Only soldiers that deserve our respect and remembrance are the unsung soldiers of the Indian National army under Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose or soldiers who died in 1857 and countless heroes like Bhagat singh, chandersekhar Azad who sacrificed their lives for our independence.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Kashi » 09 Jan 2019 06:44

Suresh S wrote:soldiers who died in 1857


By most accounts they fought to restore the Mughal King, not quite the same as fighting for independence.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 09 Jan 2019 07:27

In centuries of 1% gdp growth and destruction of native industry, i figure many joined simply for steady employment and paycheque

Same as all branches made a beeline to join itvity cos

Either that or eke our a living under the whip of the zamindar or migrate to mumbai or kolkata

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby yensoy » 09 Jan 2019 07:43

Suresh S wrote:I have no respect for indian soldiers(nor should any thinking Indian) who died in the first or second world wars or other wars for the britshit. At best they were mercenaries at worst traitors to mother India...


Things don't quite work this way in practice. These were Indian nationals who did their dharma, albeit in allegiance to a foreign power (as has been the case for several centuries in the past). In a manner, the worst offenders should have been the local police who often were tasked with the tasks of anti-revolutionary activity including torture and execution. For many it was either starvation or working under the crown, since most recruits didn't have ancestral lands to fall back on. The rest of the economy was tiny with industries like textiles decimated by the same overlords, and even the civilian sectors of the economy were basically for the purpose of fattening the crown (e.g. railways).

Yet, at the time of independence/1950, GoI issued commemorative medals to a wide section of the now Indian police/military to earn their loyalty and buy-in. Outreach and acceptance was very much needed for an orderly and peaceful transition to a different leadership and to ensure authority. If you get a chance please see the movie "Invictus" where Nelson Mandela co-opts the Afrikaaner/white people, the same ones who imposed apartheid and held him in captivity, to keep his country's economy, military, civil administration, judiciary and sports from falling apart into chaos.

BTW don't discount the Indian Navy mutiny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Indian_Navy_mutiny in the steps towards freedom. That incident underlined the internal tensions within the military establishment and circumscribed the brits ability to impose their will.

It's easy to pass judgement sitting in your air conditioned cubicle today about people from a hundred years ago. Instead why not point fingers at the various "martial castes" who had taken on the self-appointed role of "kshatriyas" or "warriors", and instead of defending the country, were busy fighting against each other, often by treacherous means in consortium with foreign powers?

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Karan M » 09 Jan 2019 08:51

Suraj wrote:Our memorials of WW2 will remain as it is because of the ambiguity of the cause we were fighting for. What were we fighting for ? 'liberty' ? 'freedom from tyranny' ? By fighting on the side of the colonial oppressor ? The same entity who's supposed to show gratitude for our contributions subsequently, which of course they don't give a crap about ? I'm afraid we first need a narrative of our own that legitimizes our presence there as a force for good, while simultaneously delegitimizing the colonial force who conscripted us as their cannon fodder.


Well said.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 09 Jan 2019 09:27

Singha wrote:In centuries of 1% gdp growth and destruction of native industry, i figure many joined simply for steady employment and paycheque

Same as all branches made a beeline to join itvity cos

Either that or eke our a living under the whip of the zamindar or migrate to mumbai or kolkata


For same economic reasons a few mil people from bihar and up and tn took their chances as indentured labour to fiji, south africa, malaya, mauritius and west indies.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Yagnasri » 09 Jan 2019 10:16

During the WW2 people like Savarkar asked Indians to join army so that they can learn warfare etc and can fight Brits when the time comes. INA saga proved that right. So all is not black and white.

What we need is changes to regimental names and other such things and remove all pre 1950 era identities from armed forces. Maybe start calling IA as INA first.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Vayutuvan » 09 Jan 2019 10:45

yagnasri, same with israel founding fathers. they did encourage people to fight on the side of the British to learn war tactics and strategy. IDF was peopled from groups which terrorized the British during the Palestine mandate.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 09 Jan 2019 11:11

^^ macabees and such all took names from ancient militant yahudi sects in that region. some of the first israeli political elites were veterans of these freedom fighter units.

its a good idea to change the name of IA to INA, remove all british names like looteras and mass murderers of various stripes like skinner or hodson having a regiment(!) and restore the INA to a honoured place in the pantheon.

this is long overdue. IA cannot bury its head in the sand anymore. more british than british is not going to fly in a new demographic.

IA exists to serve the people of india, not keep up some old traditions and names.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Karan M » 09 Jan 2019 15:03

Yagnasri wrote:During the WW2 people like Savarkar asked Indians to join army so that they can learn warfare etc and can fight Brits when the time comes. INA saga proved that right. So all is not black and white.

What we need is changes to regimental names and other such things and remove all pre 1950 era identities from armed forces. Maybe start calling IA as INA first.


Yes it's a disgrace to continue to fete the names of gora sahabs via Skinner's Horse and similar stuff. INA may be a stretch too far.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Yagnasri » 09 Jan 2019 15:20

Why? It is the army fought for the independence of our nation. Other nations would not have hesitated to make such a change. One more thing we need to get out of the British Commonwealth asap. I do not understand why we are in that colonial entity.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 09 Jan 2019 15:26

Yagnasri wrote:Why? It is the army fought for the independence of our nation. Other nations would not have hesitated to make such a change. One more thing we need to get out of the British Commonwealth asap. I do not understand why we are in that colonial entity.

My only hope is to show these hypocritic nations someday that despite of your looting we have progressed leaps and bounds and you have fallen down.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Karan M » 09 Jan 2019 17:55

Yagnasri wrote:Why? It is the army fought for the independence of our nation. Other nations would not have hesitated to make such a change. One more thing we need to get out of the British Commonwealth asap. I do not understand why we are in that colonial entity.


Pushback from IA stating it doesnt want its history to be complete subsumed into that of the INA which it fought against.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby krisna » 09 Jan 2019 20:21

Suresh S wrote:I have no respect for indian soldiers(nor should any thinking Indian) who died in the first or second world wars or other wars for the britshit. At best they were mercenaries at worst traitors to mother India. Only soldiers that deserve our respect and remembrance are the unsung soldiers of the Indian National army under Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose or soldiers who died in 1857 and countless heroes like Bhagat singh, chandersekhar Azad who sacrificed their lives for our independence.



may be OT. But need to respond. :(

very poor commentary in this post without understanding the deeper issue involved.

1) Indians at that time and for that matter for centuries had only cultural unity but no geographical unity.

2) Indians during 190-1930 had no idea of independence. Yes fights rebellions were ongoing. But never colaesced into mass movement until later.

3) MKG and other congress leaders were initially of the view that britshit should rule over India and give it dominion status. Later they changed their views.


4) MKG made Indians to commit itself to fight for britshit.

6) Indian soldiers were just following the orders as the britshit were rulers of the land with congress and mass leaders like MKG negotiating on their behalf.

5) post ww2, british though on victor side, was devastated. Mutiny and other aspects of non coopertaion made them think to leave India. they did it hurreidly and caused mayhem. Also search why britshit did it on august 15 and not any other day for leaving. Also learn about what usa said to britshit at that time.

Request posters to not talk nonsense - learn history- avoid mistakes done- so that we have teach our children for better future.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby yantra » 09 Jan 2019 20:32

Suresh S wrote:I have no respect for indian soldiers(nor should any thinking Indian) who died in the first or second world wars or other wars for the britshit. At best they were mercenaries at worst traitors to mother India. Only soldiers that deserve our respect and remembrance are the unsung soldiers of the Indian National army under Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose or soldiers who died in 1857 and countless heroes like Bhagat singh, chandersekhar Azad who sacrificed their lives for our independence.


:oops: I hardly respond.. but this idiotic comment made me. I have just one recommendation for the author - since you know English - please read The Case for India by Will Durant

Write such comments after you read such books, if your soul still permits!

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby krisna » 09 Jan 2019 20:33

Suraj wrote:Our memorials of WW2 will remain as it is because of the ambiguity of the cause we were fighting for. What were we fighting for ? 'liberty' ? 'freedom from tyranny' ? By fighting on the side of the colonial oppressor ? The same entity who's supposed to show gratitude for our contributions subsequently, which of course they don't give a crap about ? I'm afraid we first need a narrative of our own that legitimizes our presence there as a force for good, while simultaneously delegitimizing the colonial force who conscripted us as their cannon fodder.


1) we can easily we are fighting for liberty and tyranny of colonialism. yes there are plenty of evidences . Example-Shashi Tharoor book of "age of darkness- british emprie in India". it is just a compilation of all british recordings in one complete book format. easy referneces. There are many others also.

2) we fought for britshit- yes we did to prevent another form of tyranny. to remove thorn we need another sharp instrument like a surgical knife we can argue easily.

3) we need to create a Indian narrative which is absolutely vital and important.

4) school educaion should include excerpts from Shashi Tharror book (or other similar books) including british caste system and caste.

In this aspect we have lost lot of ground because of our 1947 rulers. we can still regain it if we start doing it today . This will happen in the next few years if done earnestly. britshit will have nothing but just watch with :(( :((

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby krisna » 09 Jan 2019 20:38

Singha wrote:^^ macabees and such all took names from ancient militant yahudi sects in that region. some of the first israeli political elites were veterans of these freedom fighter units.

its a good idea to change the name of IA to INA, remove all british names like looteras and mass murderers of various stripes like skinner or hodson having a regiment(!) and restore the INA to a honoured place in the pantheon.

this is long overdue. IA cannot bury its head in the sand anymore. more british than british is not going to fly in a new demographic.

IA exists to serve the people of india, not keep up some old traditions and names.


Absolutely agree.

1) name of IA can be changed to INA if political leaders want it. IA is a disciplined force- may make some noise but will agree . No major hassles.

2) Remove all british names- yes should be done and replaced withoriginal Indian names. Also mention britshit atrocites on a plaque in an imoportant place in that area. History learning is important

3) unless my understanding is mistaken-INA was not given due recognition by 1947 rulers of free India. very sad story.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby chola » 09 Jan 2019 20:48

Suraj wrote:IMHO we are being chumps if we expect others to give us credit for something we were cannon fodder for them in. Being a good boy and hoping for a pat on the head is not how geopolitics works. We were condoms for use and discarding, and that's exactly how they view and treat us since then. If we want better, it's up to us to define why we were there, and write our own history over their view of us, which currently predominates.


Suresh S wrote:I have no respect for indian soldiers(nor should any thinking Indian) who died in the first or second world wars or other wars for the britshit. At best they were mercenaries at worst traitors to mother India. Only soldiers that deserve our respect and remembrance are the unsung soldiers of the Indian National army under Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose or soldiers who died in 1857 and countless heroes like Bhagat singh, chandersekhar Azad who sacrificed their lives for our independence.



Good or bad, Indians fighting for the Britshits is part of our history and heritage. We cannot ignore it. The men who fought there were Indians and it behooves us to remember them and sure others do too.

Our armed forces today has an elan and a tradition that comes in great part from those days. The professionalism, the spirit and the effectiveness of our forces are, let’s face it, far above than the other institutions of desi society. The gora effect, like English as our second language, does good at time.

But I totally agree the Bose and the INA be given greater weight in our nation’s narrative.

I agree in principle with all that Suraj and Suresh say. But
I also believe we cannot judge people from that time to what we see today in hindsight.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby SBajwa » 09 Jan 2019 20:54

Suresh S wrote:I have no respect for indian soldiers(nor should any thinking Indian) who died in the first or second world wars or other wars for the britshit. At best they were mercenaries at worst traitors to mother India. Only soldiers that deserve our respect and remembrance are the unsung soldiers of the Indian National army under Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose or soldiers who died in 1857 and countless heroes like Bhagat singh, chandersekhar Azad who sacrificed their lives for our independence.



Sir! You do not know!! Mohandas Gandhi and Congress party had called people to join British Indian army supporting the allies so that India gets freedom. They thought that British would give them freedom after both first and second world war. The various agitations by Mohandas gandhi were stopped in favor of British when wars started!
Please read history! You might be juvenile!

This forum was started when Internet started back in 1990s. So many of the people in this forum are familiar with each other!!!

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby SBajwa » 09 Jan 2019 20:59

chola wrote:
Suraj wrote:IMHO we are being chumps if we expect others to give us credit for something we were cannon fodder for them in. Being a good boy and hoping for a pat on the head is not how geopolitics works. We were condoms for use and discarding, and that's exactly how they view and treat us since then. If we want better, it's up to us to define why we were there, and write our own history over their view of us, which currently predominates.


Suresh S wrote:I have no respect for indian soldiers(nor should any thinking Indian) who died in the first or second world wars or other wars for the britshit. At best they were mercenaries at worst traitors to mother India. Only soldiers that deserve our respect and remembrance are the unsung soldiers of the Indian National army under Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose or soldiers who died in 1857 and countless heroes like Bhagat singh, chandersekhar Azad who sacrificed their lives for our independence.



Good or bad, Indians fighting for the Britshits is part of our history and heritage. We cannot ignore it. The men who fought there were Indians and it behooves us to remember them and sure others do too.

Our armed forces today has an elan and a tradition that comes in great part from those days. The professionalism, the spirit and the effectiveness of our forces are, let’s face it, far above than the other institutions of desi society. The gora effect, like English as our second language, does good at time.

But I totally agree the Bose and the INA be given greater weight in our nation’s narrative.

I agree in principle with all that Suraj and Suresh say. But
I also believe we cannot judge people from that time to what we see today in hindsight.



We should have Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose portrait on currency along with Shaheed Bhagat Singh, Sarabha, Rajguru, Sukhdev, Chandra Sekhar Azad, Ram Prasad Bismil, Ashfaq, Udham singh, Lala Hardyal, Harnam Singh Tundilat, Rash bihari Bose, Sohan Singh Bhakna, etc.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby yensoy » 09 Jan 2019 21:55

SBajwa wrote:We should have Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose portrait on currency along with Shaheed Bhagat Singh, Sarabha, Rajguru, Sukhdev, Chandra Sekhar Azad, Ram Prasad Bismil, Ashfaq, Udham singh, Lala Hardyal, Harnam Singh Tundilat, Rash bihari Bose, Sohan Singh Bhakna, etc.


There is one important reason currencies tend to have one or a limited set of persons portraits (one per denomination, for instance). It is recognizability and potential for counterfeiting. If currency has the kind of diversity that postage stamps do, tomorrow ISI will print a note with my face on it and people might be fooled into accepting it as genuine.

These greats you mention should absolutely be honoured in every other way possible sir.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 09 Jan 2019 23:51

Crossposted from economy thread:
Image
That's ~150 years of 0% per capita income growth, up to independence. Population grew ~0.5% a year during that time, which means annual GDP growth was 0.5% for 1.5 centuries.

The graph positively flatters our growth during the Nehruvian socialist era. As of present day, the number reads ~$8500 as current GDP PPP is $10.5-11 trillion.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby ramana » 10 Jan 2019 00:07

Before bolivating folks need to understand the Indian Army is not the British Indian Army.
It includes all the States forces of pre-Independent India.
Second all battle honors have been reviewed and thos considered repugnant have been retired. What this means is if BIA was awarded Battle Honor Coregaum for victory against Marathas, this has been retired.
Only battle honors for victories abroad are still honored. E.g.. Tehran, Haifa, etc.
So suggest learn the history before bolivating.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Suraj » 10 Jan 2019 00:15

chola wrote:I agree in principle with all that Suraj and Suresh say. But
I also believe we cannot judge people from that time to what we see today in hindsight.

My posts weren't a judgement of the soldiers. My argument is that India as a country doesn't have a clear narrative of its own regarding our presence in WW1 and WW2 . It was a war between two sets of European powers trying to sort out issues dating back to prior wars between them. To quote Muhammed Ali, "I ain't got no quarrel with the Viet Cong. No Viet Cong ever called me a n***er" . In other words, there's no clear reason why one side was better than the other, beside justification after the fact because the allies won.

Even the Chinese have the same dissonance. They weren't fighting on the allied side as much as they were fighting each other. They just happened to help the allies because the Japanese took advantage of their turmoil and barged their way in.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby nachiket » 10 Jan 2019 00:43

I understand wanting to change the names of regiments like Skinner's Horse and Hodson's horse. But what exactly is to be gained by changing IA's name to INA? The IA already had a name change from the BIA to IA after WW2. It did not remain the same.

Let's not forget that the real colonial holdovers in need of reform are the IPS and IAS rather than the IA which is working fine.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Karan M » 10 Jan 2019 01:06

I agree. IA to INA achieves nothing.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby sanjaykumar » 10 Jan 2019 02:00

What's with the compulsive renaming? Does changing Skinner's horse mean that the siege of Bharatpur never happened?

I don't mind renaming to restore the uncorrupted nomenclature, get rid of Allahabad and restore Prayag(raj). But was there an Indian Skinner's horse or Indian Victoria terminus? This is shades of the USSR where history was unpredictable.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 10 Jan 2019 07:34

Is there any book by indian writer piecing together the units and actions of bia abroad like crimea, boxer, ww1/2 ... infact indians were everywhere the british army fought in asia africa there would be lot more sites. Sikh units were involved in relief of western chancery in peking during boxer

Without such books from indians there is no hope their stories will be truly told. We need names, detailed accounts, maps , dates

Must be in some musty IA archives somewhere with no avcess to lay public writers

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 10 Jan 2019 07:45

I dont know if skinners horse played a role in the brutal massacres the white british english unleashed in 1857 but looks like hodsons horse was raised expressly to put down the revolt

Fairly inglorious of “loyal” sikhs and gurkhas fighting purbiya units who revolted in the united provinces

Why keep the name of the “leaders” who led the madsacre of the revolutionaries. Its hardly documented how many alleged camp followers were also shot out of hand when delhi fell. It is known the old city of delhi became depopulated for monthsand people fled to countryside. Bahadur zafars young sons were executed in cold blood after being arrested. Dalrymple and many others have written of it

Who was doing all this? Only white british units or indian units also participated ?

The truth must be found and told

Wiki

It was raised by Brevet Major William Stephen Raikes Hodson during the Indian Rebellion of 1857, and exists today as the 4th Horse Regiment in the Indian Army. The first risala or troop was raised by Risaldar-Major Man Singh.

The force was raised as an irregular cavalry regiment to assist with putting down the rebellion, and continued as part of the British Indian Army.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 10 Jan 2019 07:58

And one cannot use the stick of oh they onlee wanted to put the old mughal king in power. Who else had a brand name in north india for people to rally around? There were no democracies in india, the last ones has been 2000 years ago. Only kings all cowed down or defeated/killed by EiC guns. France and usa were about the only democracies in 1857 and usa was on verge of a civil war on the issue of secession and state rights. England had no elected pm then.

They need a few brand recall leaders and got the nearest

With no easy means of electrical communication i can understand why south remained cut off. Even the american revolutionary war had a core area much smaller than india along the coast.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby nandakumar » 10 Jan 2019 09:02

The new visa proposal that UK plans to formally submit to the Indian Govt, are they really going to put Indian at part with EU residents? This news report seems to imply that. But the examples quoted suggests that Polish plumbers and Portugese nannies would still get a preference over their Indian counterparts post Brexit.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/internati ... 952871.ece

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Kashi » 10 Jan 2019 09:12

Singha wrote:And one cannot use the stick of oh they onlee wanted to put the old mughal king in power. Who else had a brand name in north india for people to rally around?


Mughals were toast by that point, decimated by Marathas and Persian invasions. Bahadur Shah Zafar's diktat barely extended beyond Mehrauli, so to suggest that North India would willingly rally around an inglorious regime is stretching it.

In fact it's not spoken much, but one of the reasons that 1857 fizzled out was because of mass apathy, especially in the Northern hinterland. Neither the common folk nor the Maharajas showed much of an interest.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Karan M » 10 Jan 2019 10:11

Sanjaykumar, there is a file with a proposal to rename you as well on Yogi's desk. After all, what's in a name. :mrgreen:

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby chola » 10 Jan 2019 13:29

Singha wrote:I dont know if skinners horse played a role in the brutal massacres the white british english unleashed in 1857 but looks like hodsons horse was raised expressly to put down the revolt

Fairly inglorious of “loyal” sikhs and gurkhas fighting purbiya units who revolted in the united provinces

Why keep the name of the “leaders” who led the madsacre of the revolutionaries. Its hardly documented how many alleged camp followers were also shot out of hand when delhi fell. It is known the old city of delhi became depopulated for monthsand people fled to countryside. Bahadur zafars young sons were executed in cold blood after being arrested. Dalrymple and many others have written of it

Who was doing all this? Only white british units or indian units also participated ?

The truth must be found and told

Wiki

It was raised by Brevet Major William Stephen Raikes Hodson during the Indian Rebellion of 1857, and exists today as the 4th Horse Regiment in the Indian Army. The first risala or troop was raised by Risaldar-Major Man Singh.

The force was raised as an irregular cavalry regiment to assist with putting down the rebellion, and continued as part of the British Indian Army.


Singha ji. I for one did not know. That is a good find. It should be discussed.

chetak
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby chetak » 10 Jan 2019 14:05

chola wrote:
Singha wrote:I dont know if skinners horse played a role in the brutal massacres the white british english unleashed in 1857 but looks like hodsons horse was raised expressly to put down the revolt

Fairly inglorious of “loyal” sikhs and gurkhas fighting purbiya units who revolted in the united provinces

Why keep the name of the “leaders” who led the madsacre of the revolutionaries. Its hardly documented how many alleged camp followers were also shot out of hand when delhi fell. It is known the old city of delhi became depopulated for monthsand people fled to countryside. Bahadur zafars young sons were executed in cold blood after being arrested. Dalrymple and many others have written of it

Who was doing all this? Only white british units or indian units also participated ?

The truth must be found and told

Wiki

It was raised by Brevet Major William Stephen Raikes Hodson during the Indian Rebellion of 1857, and exists today as the 4th Horse Regiment in the Indian Army. The first risala or troop was raised by Risaldar-Major Man Singh.

The force was raised as an irregular cavalry regiment to assist with putting down the rebellion, and continued as part of the British Indian Army.


Singha ji. I for one did not know. That is a good find. It should be discussed.


dalrymple is unreliable and also a biased source. he is a colonial toady with a very pronounced racist mentality.

The units you refer to were all officered by white britshits and had native Indian elements who were paid, fed, trained and led by the above mentioned britshits. Also, they lived very segregated lives in specific and exclusive military cantonments where the influence of the "natives" upon their lives was almost negligent to nil.

Furthermore, were sikhs really led by the britshits against other sikhs or the marathas led against other marathas?? I really do not know but it seems unlikely that the britshits would risk rebellion in their own ranks by doing such things.

The soldiers, as ordered and deployed, went to any country, or any part of their country that they were sent to and fought whoever they were deployed against there. The penalty for desertion or disobedience was death, meted out brutally and in very short order.

Coming to the great wars, the traitorous and seditious role of effete and obsequious Indian politicos who "fought" the britshits for Indian "freedom" needs to be thoroughly exposed. The prominent ones among such servile "leaders" are well known to all and do not bear repeating again and again. They were the real traitors, they never objected nor rebelled against such misuse of Indian origin troops and AFAIK, the britshits deployed the Indian origin soldiers to war zones even without the permission of the then govt of India, granted that such a govt was part of the britshit empire but still, no permission was obtained from the then govt of India.

HOW COME THEIR DUBIOUS ROLE IS NEVER DISCUSSED BUT THE RANK AND FILE SOLDIERS WHO NEVER DETERMINED or could even determine THEIR OWN FUTURES ARE BLAMED FOR FIGHTING FOR FOREIGNERS?? ARE THESE POLITICO, FREEDOM FIGHTER SCOUNDRELS NOT RESPONSIBLE??

How would ordinary soldiers deployed abroad on "UN missions" be viewed by future generations?? Would they be blamed as well??
Last edited by chetak on 10 Jan 2019 14:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 10 Jan 2019 14:26

i have heard the white units were dominated by scots (who were jobless back home) and did all/most of the atrocities.
the indian units may have been kept away from such activity fearing they would mutiny against such orders.
a gora colonel of sorts killed zafar's sons on the street when confronted by a hostile crowd afair.

i hope to locate more online materials if i can.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 10 Jan 2019 14:32

if we consider "only" 100,000 indian soldiers killed in reprisals and battles, 1857 its more than the number in WW2(87000) and WW1(lower than WW2) and certainly much more than all our post-1947 wars combined.
a through documentation and a national memorial ought to be built in delhi outside the british consulate to remember these fighters.
the chinese will never let the japanese forget what they did in nanking.
brits were good in hiding and destroying official records of lawlessness. they have done this in malaysia and kenya also, among known places.

a fuller record of what took place in the months after the fall of delhi in 1857 ought to be written and put up for the nation to read.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/ ... deepramesh

India's secret history: 'A holocaust, one where millions disappeared...'
Author says British reprisals involved the killing of 10m, spread over 10 years
Randeep Ramesh in New Delhi

Fri 24 Aug 2007 14.29 BST First published on Fri 24 Aug 2007 14.29 BST



A controversial new history of the Indian Mutiny, which broke out 150 years ago and is acknowledged to have been the greatest challenge to any European power in the 19th century, claims that the British pursued a murderous decade-long campaign to wipe out millions of people who dared rise up against them.

In War of Civilisations: India AD 1857, Amaresh Misra, a writer and historian based in Mumbai, argues that there was an "untold holocaust" which caused the deaths of almost 10 million people over 10 years beginning in 1857. Britain was then the world's superpower but, says Misra, came perilously close to losing its most prized possession: India.

Conventional histories have counted only 100,000 Indian soldiers who were slaughtered in savage reprisals, but none have tallied the number of rebels and civilians killed by British forces desperate to impose order, claims Misra.


The author says he was surprised to find that the "balance book of history" could not say how many Indians were killed in the aftermath of 1857. This is remarkable, he says, given that in an age of empires, nothing less than the fate of the world hung in the balance.

"It was a holocaust, one where millions disappeared. It was a necessary holocaust in the British view because they thought the only way to win was to destroy entire populations in towns and villages. It was simple and brutal. Indians who stood in their way were killed. But its scale has been kept a secret," Misra told the Guardian.

His calculations rest on three principal sources. Two are records pertaining to the number of religious resistance fighters killed - either Islamic mujahideen or Hindu warrior ascetics committed to driving out the British.

The third source involves British labour force records, which show a drop in manpower of between a fifth and a third across vast swaths of India, which as one British official records was "on account of the undisputed display of British power, necessary during those terrible and wretched days - millions of wretches seemed to have died."

There is a macabre undercurrent in much of the correspondence. In one incident Misra recounts how 2m letters lay unopened in government warehouses, which, according to civil servants, showed "the kind of vengeance our boys must have wreaked on the abject Hindoos and Mohammadens, who killed our women and children."

Misra's casualty claims have been challenged in India and Britain. "It is very difficult to assess the extent of the reprisals simply because we cannot say for sure if some of these populations did not just leave a conflict zone rather than being killed," said Shabi Ahmad, head of the 1857 project at the Indian Council of Historical Research. "It could have been migration rather than murder that depopulated areas."

Many view exaggeration rather than deceit in Misra's calculations. A British historian, Saul David, author of The Indian Mutiny, said it was valid to count the death toll but reckoned that it ran into "hundreds of thousands".

"It looks like an overestimate. There were definitely famines that cost millions of lives, which were exacerbated by British ruthlessness. You don't need these figures or talk of holocausts to hammer imperialism. It has a pretty bad track record."

Others say Misra has done well to unearth anything in that period, when the British assiduously snuffed out Indian versions of history. "There appears a prolonged silence between 1860 and the end of the century where no native voices are heard. It is only now that these stories are being found and there is another side to the story," said Amar Farooqui, history professor at Delhi University. "In many ways books like Misra's and those of [William] Dalrymple show there is lots of material around. But you have to look for it."

What is not in doubt is that in 1857 Britain ruled much of the subcontinent in the name of the Bahadur Shah Zafar, the powerless poet-king improbably descended from Genghis Khan.

Neither is there much dispute over how events began: on May 10 Indian soldiers, both Muslim and Hindu, who were stationed in the central Indian town of Meerut revolted and killed their British officers before marching south to Delhi. The rebels proclaimed Zafar, then 82, emperor of Hindustan and hoisted a saffron flag above the Red Fort.

What follows in Misra's view was nothing short of the first war of Indian independence, a story of a people rising to throw off the imperial yoke. Critics say the intentions and motives were more muddled: a few sepoys misled into thinking the officers were threatening their religious traditions. In the end British rule prevailed for another 90 years.

Misra's analysis breaks new ground by claiming the fighting stretched across India rather than accepting it was localised around northern India. Misra says there were outbreaks of anti-British violence in southern Tamil Nadu, near the Himalayas, and bordering Burma. "It was a pan-Indian thing. No doubt."

Misra also claims that the uprisings did not die out until years after the original mutiny had fizzled away, countering the widely held view that the recapture of Delhi was the last important battle.

For many the fact that Indian historians debate 1857 from all angles is in itself a sign of a historical maturity. "You have to see this in the context of a new, more confident India," said Jon E Wilson, lecturer in south Asian history at King's College London. "India has a new relationship with 1857. In the 40s and 50s the rebellions were seen as an embarrassment. All that fighting, when Nehru and Gandhi preached nonviolence. But today 1857 is becoming part of the Indian national story. That is a big change."

What they said

Charles Dickens: "I wish I were commander-in-chief in India ... I should proclaim to them that I considered my holding that appointment by the leave of God, to mean that I should do my utmost to exterminate the race."

Karl Marx: "The question is not whether the English had a right to conquer India, but whether we are to prefer India conquered by the Turk, by the Persian, by the Russian, to India conquered by the Briton."


L'Estaffette, French newspaper: "Intervene in favour of the Indians, launch all our squadrons on the seas, join our efforts with those of Russia against British India ...such is the only policy truly worthy of the glorious traditions of France."

The Guardian: "We sincerely hope that the terrible lesson thus taught will never be forgotten ... We may rely on native bayonets, but they must be officered by Europeans."

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby atamjeetsingh » 10 Jan 2019 18:46

Singha wrote:I dont know if skinners horse played a role in the brutal massacres the white british english unleashed in 1857 but looks like hodsons horse was raised expressly to put down the revolt

Fairly inglorious of “loyal” sikhs and gurkhas fighting purbiya units who revolted in the united provinces

Why keep the name of the “leaders” who led the madsacre of the revolutionaries. Its hardly documented how many alleged camp followers were also shot out of hand when delhi fell. It is known the old city of delhi became depopulated for monthsand people fled to countryside. Bahadur zafars young sons were executed in cold blood after being arrested. Dalrymple and many others have written of it

Who was doing all this? Only white british units or indian units also participated ?

The truth must be found and told

Wiki

It was raised by Brevet Major William Stephen Raikes Hodson during the Indian Rebellion of 1857, and exists today as the 4th Horse Regiment in the Indian Army. The first risala or troop was raised by Risaldar-Major Man Singh.

The force was raised as an irregular cavalry regiment to assist with putting down the rebellion, and continued as part of the British Indian Army.

There is a book by Hodsons brother which has extracts of letter written by Hodson to his family. Twelve years of soldiers life in India. It gives a good detials of events during 1857.

SBajwa
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby SBajwa » 10 Jan 2019 19:58

nachiket wrote:I understand wanting to change the names of regiments like Skinner's Horse and Hodson's horse. But what exactly is to be gained by changing IA's name to INA? The IA already had a name change from the BIA to IA after WW2. It did not remain the same.

Let's not forget that the real colonial holdovers in need of reform are the IPS and IAS rather than the IA which is working fine.


Skinner's horse and Hodson Horse were made of the former soldiers of the Maharaja Ranjit singh Army that was disbanded in 1849 and then back these regiments created in 1857 due to revolt.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby SBajwa » 10 Jan 2019 20:03

chetak wrote:
chola wrote:
Singha ji. I for one did not know. That is a good find. It should be discussed.


dalrymple is unreliable and also a biased source. he is a colonial toady with a very pronounced racist mentality.

The units you refer to were all officered by white britshits and had native Indian elements who were paid, fed, trained and led by the above mentioned britshits. Also, they lived very segregated lives in specific and exclusive military cantonments where the influence of the "natives" upon their lives was almost negligent to nil.

Furthermore, were sikhs really led by the britshits against other sikhs or the marathas led against other marathas?? I really do not know but it seems unlikely that the britshits would risk rebellion in their own ranks by doing such things.

The soldiers, as ordered and deployed, went to any country, or any part of their country that they were sent to and fought whoever they were deployed against there. The penalty for desertion or disobedience was death, meted out brutally and in very short order.

Coming to the great wars, the traitorous and seditious role of effete and obsequious Indian politicos who "fought" the britshits for Indian "freedom" needs to be thoroughly exposed. The prominent ones among such servile "leaders" are well known to all and do not bear repeating again and again. They were the real traitors, they never objected nor rebelled against such misuse of Indian origin troops and AFAIK, the britshits deployed the Indian origin soldiers to war zones even without the permission of the then govt of India, granted that such a govt was part of the britshit empire but still, no permission was obtained from the then govt of India.

HOW COME THEIR DUBIOUS ROLE IS NEVER DISCUSSED BUT THE RANK AND FILE SOLDIERS WHO NEVER DETERMINED or could even determine THEIR OWN FUTURES ARE BLAMED FOR FIGHTING FOR FOREIGNERS?? ARE THESE POLITICO, FREEDOM FIGHTER SCOUNDRELS NOT RESPONSIBLE??

How would ordinary soldiers deployed abroad on "UN missions" be viewed by future generations?? Would they be blamed as well??



Sikh soldiers who were in Hodson's horse believed that the Purbiya soldiers of British army had defeated them in 1849 and thus enlisted with British to defeat Purbiya soldiers revolting against British in 1857., solely for revenge purposes. They had no clue about what India/Bharat is!!!


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