India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Mar 2018 20:47

Folks what are the India US trade numbers? Exports Imports and deficits? Facts not guesses.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 07 Mar 2018 20:53

Per census dot gov site

https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5330.html

For 2017

US Exports to India $25,700.5 M
US Imports from India $48,631.3 M
US Trade Deficit vis-a-vis India $-22,930.8 M

Figures for earlier years and YTD for 2018 are also given at that link.

Edited: that is "goods" only.

A more complete picture is here

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/sout ... asia/india

But less up-to-date as the most recent year is 2016.

U.S. goods and services trade with India totaled an estimated $114.8 billion in 2016. Exports were $42.0 billion; imports were $72.8 billion. The U.S. goods and services trade deficit with India was $30.8 billion in 2016.

India is currently our 9th largest goods trading partner with $67.7 billion in total (two way) goods trade during 2016. Goods exports totaled $21.7 billion; goods imports totaled $46.0 billion. The U.S. goods trade deficit with India was $24.3 billion in 2016.

Trade in services with India (exports and imports) totaled an estimated $47.2 billion in 2016. Services exports were $20.3 billion; services imports were $26.8 billion. The U.S. services trade deficit with India was $6.5 billion in 2016.

According to the Department of Commerce, U.S. exports of Goods and Services to India supported an estimated 197 thousand jobs in 2015 (latest data available) (82 thousand supported by goods exports and 116 thousand supported by services exports).

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 07 Mar 2018 21:27

Rudradev wrote: Indian Americans who vote Republican betray the exact same Ambhi Raja-Jaichand- Mir Jafar - Rammohun Roy - Jawaharlal Nehru mentality that has kept our people subjugated by foreigners for millennia.

They are more than happy to support a party whose policies throw vast numbers of fellow Indian H1Bs under the bus (not to mention their own non-citizen family members)... just to gain the approval of conservative white Americans (who will always despise them anyway). Hack thoo.

RD: Do not think it is fair to be this hard on Americans voting Republican. 1. The Democrats may appear to be pro-immigration but having lived here for some time, both parties play their game on immigration. 2. What party is beneficial for India as you know is not a party question in the US. US interests dominate when these decisions are taken and one can argue that Democrats indeed have no spine and on a whole host of foreign policy issues from their policy on Pakistan to Nuclear issues, human rights, etc the democrats have equally acted against Indian interests. 3. The Americans of Indian origin and 2nd gen vote as Americans first, unfair to expect them to cater to Indian interests and vote accordingly. I do not think Indians should expect Americans to supercede their pledge of Allegiance an oath they undertake. If it comes to it, I indeed expect them to vote for American interests first - as they see them, even if it directly is against India's interests.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 07 Mar 2018 21:56

Shaurya you are conflating three different things here.

1) The interests of the United States as a nation. There is room for a variety of opinions on what constitutes this.
2) The interests of the Republic of India as a nation.
3) The interests of the specific, ethnically and culturally identified group of US citizens known as Indian Americans, especially Hindu Americans.

Note that 2 and 3 need not be the same, and in fact, could be quite opposite.

Take the case of H1-Bs. Someone with the Republic of India's ultimate interest at heart might say, let the H1-B quota from India be cut down. More of our educated young professionals will stay in India and that will be to India's benefit (2). An Indian-American who is thinking strategically might very well say: our numbers here are small and we want more of our kind in the US to increase our social and political clout... so we oppose H1-B/H4-B restrictions and in fact ANY kind of restrictions on current paths of immigration from India to the US (3).

Similarly of course (1) and (3) can conflict with each other in a way that has nothing to do with (2). The Trumpians (1) say they want an end to "chain migration" where an immigrant can sponsor many extended family members for green cards... a system that has been used by many, many Indian-Americans to bring family groups over. The interests of Republic of India (2) are in fact neutral where this is concerned. But many Indian-Americans (3) may oppose an end to chain migration for a number of reasons specific to the Indian-American community... for example, the joint family system is part of our traditional social fabric and it strengthens Indian-American communities (and by extension, wider American communities around them) when groups bonded by blood or marital ties are present together. Conversely, nuclear families (which the new proposed chain-migration limits would impose) are less likely to have strong cultural moorings and social values, to the detriment of their psychological health, particularly of the next generation. The Irish, Italians, Jews, Latinos all have had a chance to build and reinforce their communities in this way, so why should Indian-Americans be denied the same?

In fact the Italian-Americans are a great example of how the interests of the USA-immigrant community can be completely contrary to the interests of the mother country, yet utterly united in terms of advancing their interests as an ethnic/cultural immigrant group. When they came to Ellis Island in the early 1900s they were mostly impoverished, uneducated labourers and agricultural workers; but they arrived in progressive joint-family clusters exactly as "chain-migrating" Patels and Telugus did later. During WW2, more Italian-Americans than ANY other US community joined the armed forces to fight against an axis which included the mother country of Italy! Surely that is proof that they put the interests of America (the nation) over Italy (the nation).

Yet in social, ethnic, linguistic and cultural terms the Italian-Americans stuck together and advanced as a community, ensuring that the next generations were educated and best equipped to take advantage of every opportunity, and yet never dropping their united front. By the mid-to-late 20th century they had mayors like Fiorello La Guardia, state governors like Mario Cuomo, large-scale representation at the highest levels of US legislative, governmental, and financial decision making. This would not have been possible unless they had consistently prioritized the interests of Italian-Americans FIRST, then the interests of the USA, then the interests of the mother country (Italy) in that order.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Mar 2018 22:05

Thank you Shaurya T
As a representative of the intel agencies of the US, your response above has been noted and your patriotism has also been noted in your file
Well done ji!

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 07 Mar 2018 22:11

To supplement Rudradev's post about Italian Americans author Mario Puzo wrote a powerful novel on the Italian Americans titled The Fortunate Pilgrim before he became famous for his novel, Godfather. The novel is a poignant tale of the struggle of an Italian woman to bring up his three children in the US. Ironically, the most successful is the one who becomes a foot soldier in the Italian mafia.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 07 Mar 2018 23:22

That logic will seem dear to Bdeshi illegals in India. Whole villages have migrated in "chain migration". Only difference is legal versus illegal. Chain migration without proper validation is going to do to US what is happening to UK and western Europe and will happen to Canada in near future. A bunch of yahoos have immigrated who can neither earn a living nor assimilate in the host society. Every country has the right to determine what type of immigrants it wants. Immigration is a privilege not a right. If Trump moves to a merit based system for immigration but make it easier to become permanent residents/citizens the US is going to benefit and will be spared the yahoos. Since Indians immigrate to the US largely based on merit it will indirectly benefit Indians. No country is going to make laws specifically for only one community. It is still early days to judge Trump's immigration policies but so far he clearly wants to reduce yahoos from migrating. And Indian-Americans should not put all their eggs in the Democratic basket and become a ghetto community. Since thaw of relations Republican regimes have been better for India than Democrats e.g. Bush junior nuclear deal versus malafide intents of Clinton's and hectoring of Obama. A model minority should be able to work with regimes in a bipartisan manner.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 07 Mar 2018 23:28

Many of my family have migrated simply based on merit and some help here and there. Indians don't need chain migration. Only yahoos need chain migration.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 08 Mar 2018 00:08

This is a whole other category of "interests" being advanced right here. Let's emphasize the universal Dharmic principle of "do unto others" over all else. Because the Bangladeshis are doing "chain migration" into India, therefore (on principle) we should oppose "chain migration" that Indians use to immigrate into US. Prioritize self-righteousness at the cost of self-interest, that makes a lot of sense

No thanks, I prefer that Indian-Americans (and Indians) should have their kheer and eat it too, wherever possible. End chain migration in India, preserve it in the US. Nobody else beats themselves up over self-serving double-standards like we do. Others just grab with both hands and justify it later.

I would like to see some hard evidence (other than the anecdotal "my family did XYZ") to establish that in general, more Indians migrate to the US "on merit" than through a family connection. What does that even mean? If the assertion is that more Indian Americans were naturalized through O-1 visas or EB-1 GCs (specifically merit-based categories) than other routes, I find that hard to believe.

Indeed, even if true thus far, it hardly matters. Indians, specifically Hindus, will benefit from larger numbers in the USA... period. If you rely on educational, professional and financial achievement alone, you are perpetually a miniscule "model minority" sitting on the white man's lap and hoping for crumbs rather than seizing the demographic initiative as other minorities (yes, including yahoos) are already doing. What happens when the whites are no longer a majority themselves? Pinning all our hopes on the good graces of an ethnic group that is itself declining in influence over the long term, is hardly advisable.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 08 Mar 2018 00:34

I don't have statistics off-hand but I literally know of none of the Indian people that I know in the US who have migrated through chain migration not counting wives/husbands/children. I am not counting help with college fees, connections, admissions, etc. I think some of the more toxic proposals of Trump's H1B policies will not see light of the day due to pressure from within and from tech industry. But Obama made the same campaign pitch and did some modest changes. I believe H1B numbers have come down from the historical peak of early 2000s and Trump will be forced to do only modest changes. I think without checks and balances US will face the same problems with immigration that western Europe is facing today and it will not particularly benefit Hindus. I also think Indians should be bi-partisan in the US. Perhaps this comes from events in the US in th early 90s when the US left aligned with Democrats gave and still give India a hard time. Indians should have leverage with Republicans as well.

If I were to make a neutral observation. Modi made a promise to Indians in 2014 to solve the Bdeshi illegal problem and people are going to hold him accountable to it. Both Obama and Trump made immigration an issue in their election campaign and the electorate will want some action from them. So some action is expected. How bad or good it is going to be needs to be seen?

Indians are already 1.5% of US population at 4.5 million (the largest diaspora in any country) and Hindus don't migrate as much as Sikhs, Christians and Muslims. Just FYI.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Mar 2018 00:41

Interesting carry on.

Same discussion were there in 1980 at Rutgers about immigration and viability of the immigrant community.

Conclusion was a steady stream of immigrants is needed to ensure viability of the immigrant community to avoid East Africa situation.

Early immigration was on merit due to 1965 Immigration act during Johnson Administration.
The criterion was bachelor's in Engineering or masters in any field.
Then the family quota kicked in. Spouse (P-2), children (P-2), parents (P-3), and then siblings (P-5) Don't recall P-4 was.
US consulate would not give the F1s to those with potential to settle down in the 70s.
H1B was created as a halfway house for green cards which were limited by country quota system of which family quota was dominant.
Huge waiting lists and scan India Abroad to see visa status every week.

By the late 90s the need for IT workers created a tidal wave of H1Bs.
H1Bs were then used by both US and Indian IT companies to get workers into US.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Mar 2018 00:49

Rudradev wrote:Per census dot gov site

https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5330.html

For 2017

US Exports to India $25,700.5 M
US Imports from India $48,631.3 M
US Trade Deficit vis-a-vis India $-22,930.8 M

Figures for earlier years and YTD for 2018 are also given at that link.

Edited: that is "goods" only.

A more complete picture is here

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/sout ... asia/india

But less up-to-date as the most recent year is 2016.

U.S. goods and services trade with India totaled an estimated $114.8 billion in 2016. Exports were $42.0 billion; imports were $72.8 billion. The U.S. goods and services trade deficit with India was $30.8 billion in 2016.

India is currently our 9th largest goods trading partner with $67.7 billion in total (two way) goods trade during 2016. Goods exports totaled $21.7 billion; goods imports totaled $46.0 billion. The U.S. goods trade deficit with India was $24.3 billion in 2016.

Trade in services with India (exports and imports) totaled an estimated $47.2 billion in 2016. Services exports were $20.3 billion; services imports were $26.8 billion. The U.S. services trade deficit with India was $6.5 billion in 2016.

According to the Department of Commerce, U.S. exports of Goods and Services to India supported an estimated 197 thousand jobs in 2015 (latest data available) (82 thousand supported by goods exports and 116 thousand supported by services exports).

Thanks. Very illuminative.
So the Goods, Services, and Trade (GST) deficit is running at < $30B
China runs at $800B by Trump's admission.

Yet Bloomberg was mentioning India alongside China in every other sentence today morning.
The China deficit is ~ 27 times bigger than India GST deficit.
Will now rebut on Twitter.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 08 Mar 2018 01:15

Interesting discussion. The first category. Historically when immigration laws were changed in the early 1960s, Indian graduate students, engineers, doctors, professors and well professionally accredited individuals migrated to the US. Second category. The Patels and Telgus came later under chain migration along with extended family members of the professionals. What this did was create Indian restaurants, grocers, and Indian retail shopping across the US. For those who have been in the US for over 40 years will recall the dearth of Indian cultural activities and shopping. No longer are the days where you packed kilos of pickles and spices in your suitcase on return from India. Third category. Next came the IT professionals to fulfill the need of companies in the US where IT services aren’t their core business. It makes all the sense in the world to outsource this necessary back office work.

There are a few people in the first category who still come to the US and worked their butts off that resent some people in the second and third categories. This is that they see it as these folks got it easy and green cards and citizenship was handed to them. I think it is time to acknowledge the hard work of all the categories where any Indian origin person shouldn’t disparage another.

That said, those of us who did vote for Trump know full well he is a racist, but the alternative was worse. We see it as Trump is good (so far) for India strategically, but bad for Indians individually. Life is about compromises and we make. In any case Indians individually have to deal with the Trumpians until January 2025.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 08 Mar 2018 01:17

Ramana,

Just read WSJ article about Mahindra manufacturing in Michigan potentially suffering from tariffs. This is about vehicles imported from India as CKD kits assembled in the US.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Mar 2018 02:00

Look, once you become a Yanqui citizen and take the oath of loyalty to the flag you are no longer an " Indian" ...national.You must put US interests first despite your immigrant background. So it is unfair of us to expect brownie Yanquis to bat for us.They might have cultural affinity for all things Indian despite being US citizens, but that's a lifestyle not loyalty.

More disturbing though is the massive trade deficit between India and China.Our Lutyens establishment are eunuchs when dealing with China.Perhaps we may acquire some dutch courage thanks to Trump's protectionist trade policies in the pipeline.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 08 Mar 2018 02:24

Supratik wrote:
Indians are already 1.5% of US population at 4.5 million (the largest diaspora in any country) and Hindus don't migrate as much as Sikhs, Christians and Muslims. Just FYI.

Supratik ji,

Thanks. While I don't dispute those stats, I do think they merit further digging around to investigate what's really going on there.

Per Wiki

According to 2012 Pew Research Center, 51% consider themselves Hindus, 18% as Christians (Protestant 11%, Catholic 5%, other Christian 3%), 10% as Unaffiliated, 10% as Muslims, 5% as Sikh, 2% as Jain.

So a few points:

1) Right off the bat the immigration, as you say, does not appear proportional to respective community strengths in India. Christians (by nearly 6 to 7X) and Sikhs (by about 2X) are way over-represented. Jains are about proportional to Indian population. Muslims are slightly under-represented and Hindus, way under-represented.

2) However, this is making the assumption that those numbers directly reflect the proportions of emigres who LEFT from India. This may not be so. Christians, for example, may find it easier than others to get US visas when leaving from India. This may be because of the prejudices of US consular staff specifically towards Christianity, OR it may be a function of the fact that Christians are over-represented among the middle-class, well-educated, English-speaking elite who seek to emigrate from India in the first place. But STILL... a 7X factor??

3) Another important finding is the "Unaffiliated". Were they "unaffiliated" when they left India? I doubt it. 99.99% of Indians in India, no matter how personally irreligious, will identify with some religious community or other as a matter of caste/tribe/ethnic identity if asked. Only the negligible number of JNU types may say "atheist" or whatever.

It follows that these "unaffiliated" Indian-Americans are those who have consciously, perhaps as 2nd/later-generation US citizens, decided to give up their cultural affiliation to the belief system of their parents and grandparents.

While I have no evidence to support this (maybe Hindu American Foundation or others do)... my gut tells me that the VAST majority of these "Unaffiliateds" come from Hindu families. Maybe some from Sikh or Muslim families.

Why? Well, I can point to the continuous and ubiquitous assault, in overt discourse and as covert subtext, via academic, journalistic and pop-culture channels, upon Hindu self-esteem in American society. Caste, cows, curry, poverty, corruption... which other religious or cultural group has to put up with that? It is hard enough being a visibly different ethnicity and speaking a different mother language. At some point it must become totally exhausting to have to shoulder the burden of "monkey gods" and "elephant gods" too, so at least becoming "Unaffiliated" provides some degree of relief.

Muslims and Sikhs may suffer this to some extent, but unlike Hindus, have organized social systems to discourage entropic disintegration via deracination.

4) What happens to the Unaffiliateds? Do they remain Unaffiliated? Hard to say, of course. By marriage outside the community (another thing that increasingly happens with 2nd + generation Indian-Americans) it is possible that Unaffiliated individuals either adopt the religious identity of spouse/in-laws, or have children who eventually do (or are otherwise too far-removed from their Hindu roots to rediscover them). In many cases these individuals may end up as contributors to the vast subsection of Indian-Americans who identify as "Christians". At nearly 1/5 of Indian Americans that's nearly a million people. By contrast,self-identifying Hindu Indian-Americans are 2.2 million.

5) Finally there is the combination of elements that drives Indian-Americans directly to convert to Christianity from whatever original faith they profess. This may be driven by the urge to assimilate, the hope of increased social acceptance, the promise of economic/professional/immigration-related incentives, or simply overt solicitation by missionary groups.

The vector sum of these dynamics is to effect a population shift from Hindu Indian American >> Unaffiliated Indian American >> Christian Indian American. In fact, for all that Indian Americans pride themselves on their hard-earned professional and economic achievements, the widely unspoken truth of the Indian-American situation (for reasons of social inhibition and inherited attitudes of "secular" compulsion) is that Hindu Indian Americans are a very vulnerable minority indeed.

Consider the Indian Americans in Congress. How Hindu are Ro Khanna, Ami Bera, Pramila Jayapal and the rest? Do they identify as such or are they within a fingernail's breadth of "Unaffiliated"? Higher-level officials like Kamala Harris and Nikki Haley, of course, are Baptists. Mofo Jindal is a Hindu-hating Catholic. Ironically the ONLY unapologetic Hindu in Congress is not Indian at all, but white/Pacific-Islander Tulsi Gabbard.

So what can be done to stop the bleed?

Only one thing comes to mind. We need more, and more, and more Hindus from the motherland emigrating to the USA. We need young Hindus who have grown up in the era of Modi, have little or no memory of the decades of enforced secular deracination, no sense of feeling ashamed of their traditions... but rather a strong and committed pride in their cultural and civilizational identity, an unshakable confidence in themselves as individuals and in their heritage as a people. We need them to establish themselves in the USA as torchbearers and pillars of American Hindu communities, which are currently overachieving in terms of social indices and going extinct in terms of numbers. We need these people coming here via F-1s, H-1s, chain migration, every single avenue in the book exploited to the maximum possible extent. And we need to do whatever we can to make sure every one of those avenues remains open to them.

Otherwise, we end up like that other "model minority"... Korean Americans. With their small, overachieving and relatively-wealthy numbers, they've been cavalierly dumping Buddhism, turning "spiritual but not religious", finding Jesus, and before you know it Jesus has taken over the mother country as well.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 08 Mar 2018 02:47

RD: I share your concerns and a large part of your views, minus the political stuff. Just thought you went overboard in expressing the partisan issue. Stay warm

Added: If you get a chance, read Huntington's "Who we are". It is a masterpiece to understand the assimilative culture rooted in the Calvinists. The experiences of the Italians and their integration into the American milleu is well documented. But I do think there is one community, who balance the pulls of integration and need to retain one's own cultural roots fairly well. It is the Jews. Our community can learn from them.

IF the Hindus do not learn to value the teachings of their Dharma, and limit it to only pooja / paath and celebration of Diwali / Holi, our fate to be integrated completely and eventually discard the root culture is inevitable. The Caribbean nations, south Africa, where large communities did emigrate earlier and their use case should serve as a warning to those of us, who care care about this issue.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Mar 2018 02:55

ST, The first two are I know personally.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 08 Mar 2018 03:22

Shaurya the partisanship is based on the immigration issue alone. As discussed above it has huge implications, especially for Hindu Indian Americans in the long term. It is also a policy no Republican administration has adopted before (in our lifetimes) so it's not a party-line thing but a phenomenon unique to the new Trumpistani Republicans.

This is where the (2) and (3) categories in my reply to you earlier... Republic of India's interests vs. Indian-American interests... actually come into direct conflict (as a result of avowed Trumpistani policies).

The motivation behind (2) was keeping out Hillary, who would have been bad for Republic of India in many ways. We also fondly imagined that Trump would be GOOD for India, but that side of the coin has not really shown itself.

(3) is the issue I'm talking about.

Everyone has to decide for themselves which is more important. I think Republic of India can take care of itself (and manage its relations with USA) quite well these days; it is the Hindu Indian Americans who are vulnerable and have virtually no recourse.

The Jews, unlike us, have systemic socio-cultural safeguards that protect their small numbers from leaching away to "unaffiliated" and then "Christian" categories. In this regard they are more like the Sikhs or Muslims. You will find plenty of Jews who are openly critical of the Judaic faith and clergy, who don't keep kosher or observe most holidays, who happily eat pork etc. Yet at some core level their identification with Jewishness is unalterable. Some of them may even marry Christians but will never, ever convert or allow their children to be raised as churchgoers. One trope amongst these guys is going to Chinese restaurants on Christmas, while all the Christians are huddled around trees opening presents and having family dinners at home... Jews regard this as a passive-aggressive gesture of showing their defiance/indifference to Christianity! And when pressed, the vast majority of even these "irreligious" Jews will support Israel to the hilt.

Hindu Indian Americans don't have anything like that. We will never have it with the old blood (born and bred in Nehruvian India and having sent their children to liberal American campuses). New blood, in large transfusions, is an absolute must for such institutions and safeguards to develop. There's no way around it.

P.S. Oh yes. Sigdi Jalao!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Mar 2018 07:45

IF the Hindus do not learn to value the teachings of their Dharma, and limit it to only pooja / paath and celebration of Diwali / Holi, our fate to be integrated completely and eventually discard the root culture is inevitable. The Caribbean nations, south Africa, where large communities did emigrate earlier and their use case should serve as a warning to those of us, who care care about this issue.

^^^ one exception i have noted is mauritius where the mostly bihari immigrants have retained their faith completely, every village has multiple neat temples and right in center of the island has a huge temple complex. they also speak french day to day. the other two segments - the whites mainly french (both resident and tourists) and africans are both christian.

search for "ganga talao" in google images. most or all of these people have lost all contact with their native places and most have not even visited india yet somehow they have kept the flame burning across generations which our annual flight USA PIOs are unable to.

the first gen anglosphere PIO usually has "some" mooring, the 2nd gen has a superficial one in bollywood/music/tourism (complain loudly of heat/dust/flies/smells on enforced trips here with parents..feel apologetic about caste/cow/curry....suffer periods of rejection of their parents culture), 3rd gen intermarry into others/casually convert(?) and are effectively lost to indic cause ...

I guess the absence of a "cooler/bigger" gora constituency to "try and fit into" and the indifference of the old brit/french elites to try and convert the heathens allowed these initial sugarcane farmers to keep the faith but full marks for continuing to do it generation after generation....i would give anglosphere PIOs 1/10 for cultural ferocity vs 9/10 to the jewish diaspora.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Mar 2018 07:53

Singha In SF Bay Area there are about 30 temples and more coming up. In fact one enterprising tour bus operator takes a chakkar that takes people on a luxury bus to do their own pilgrimage on Saturday and Sunday.

Mario Puzo writes that its the third generation that searches for roots and goes back to the traditions of the immigrant grand parents in the melting pot US.

The first generation is the immigrant generation.
Second is the assimilating generation.
Third is the revisionist generation.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Mar 2018 07:55

i am not plugged into the scene, but what on avg is the religion of the children when a PIO man or woman marries into xtian/jew there?
my parental uncle who married into goradom in UK in 1970s quickly abandoned the faith and started celebrating xmas only

not a overt church goer but never seen celebrating any yindu festivals. both his daughters are officially xtian and have no interest in desh. one retains some ties to cousins here, one not even that.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Mar 2018 09:13

even among pukka christians here are the levels the elites go to...
from dailymail.co.uk

The intimate baptism was conducted by the Archbishop of Canterbury (bottom right) at the Chapel Royal (centre and inset) on Tuesday evening. Both Prince Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall (top right) were in attendance, but neither Prince William nor the Queen were present. Miss Markle’s baptism, which formally introduces her into the Anglican faith ahead of her wedding to Harry in two months, marks an important step on her transformation from divorced American actress to future granddaughter-in-law to the Queen. The ceremony was a closely-guarded secret with only a handful of royal aides involved. Miss Markle, 36 (left with Prince Harry), had asked the 62-year-old Archbishop, Justin Welby, to lead the service after forming a close bond with him in recent weeks as he instructed her on the rites and sacraments of the Church. Her baptism was followed immediately by her confirmation, which means she will be able to join Harry, 33, at Holy Communion.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 08 Mar 2018 09:16

If the intent is to increase the overall number of Indian Americans in the US, its fairly obvious as to which route would achieve this purpose faster:

Immigration Pathways for Indians in the US

After Mexico and China, India was the third largest country of origin for new lawful permanent residents (LPRs) in FY 2015. More than 64,000 new LPRs, 6 percent of the 1,051,000 total, were from India. Indians who obtained green cards were much more likely to use employment-based preferences than new LPRs overall: Forty-three percent compared to 14 percent, respectively (see Figure 6). Meanwhile, Indian immigrants were less likely than new LPRs overall to obtain green cards as immediate relatives of U.S. citizens (32 percent, compared to 44 percent).
Notably, there were significant backlogs for Indian citizens applying for LPR status through employment-based and family-sponsored channels, due to the annual per-country quota of immigrant visas available for these categories. According to the most recent visa issuance data, in August 2017 the State Department was processing visa applications filed by Indians in September 2003 for some family and employment preferences.

Increase the employment-based (merit) based preferences and allow immediate family (since that cannot be humanly avoided) and reduce all others including family sponsored, diversity and the rest.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Mar 2018 09:17

diversity is a vote bank/psyops scheme .... it will never go away

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Mar 2018 20:43

Arjun, Now you know why Mort supports Trump.....

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Mar 2018 20:50

X-Posting....

Rakesh wrote:With F-16 sale on hold, US-India ‘2+2 Ministerial’ meet to be ‘stormy’
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 936109.ece

The first round of the US-India ‘2+2 Ministerial’ meet is expected to be “stormy one” with New Delhi putting on hold the deal to acquire F-16 fighter warplanes indefinitely even as Washington continues to berate India over steep import tariff on Harley-Davidson motorbikes. “The 2+2 meet is surely going to be a stormy one. We cannot expect both sides to just smile at each other when so much is going on,” a top official, involved in forming the agenda of the talks, told Business Line requesting anonymity. The US has been eyeing the F-16 programme to bridge its trade deficit with India. US President Donald Trump is also keen on expanding US defence exports to India. In fact, despite his flagship slogan of ‘America First’ and ‘Make America Great Again’, the US President has not stopped Lockheed Martin from investing in India for setting up a manufacturing plant for building the F-16 fighter planes.

Defence Ties Zoom

India-US defence ties have reached $15 billion in 2017 from almost nil in 2001. The Trump administration is pushing India to buy the single-engine F-16 fighter jets from Lockheed Martin which would significantly boost bilateral trade between the countries. Earlier this month, top-level officials from Lockheed Martin met Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman to push the deal again under ‘Make in India’ with a commitment to set up a production line of the fighters with promises of export from the country, added sources. But last week, Sitharaman made it clear that for now the government will only focus on acquiring its indigenously built Tejas aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

Trade Focus

While focus of the 2+2 meeting is going to be defence and strategic, issues concerning trade are also expected to dominate the agenda on both sides, sources said. The ‘2+2 Ministerial’ meet is going to be a new dialogue mechanism between India and the US which will be co-chaired by External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj and Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman with their American counterparts Secretary of State and Defence Rex Tillerson and James Mattis respectively. This is likely to be held on April 19 in Washington, according to sources.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 08 Mar 2018 23:25

Rudra, a couple of points on my disagreements with you before I reply to the other points you raised. Some of the most diabolical anti-Hindu elements in the US come from the Democratic left not much different from evangelicals like Billy Graham aligned with the Republicans. E.g. When they pursued the visa denial to Modi both the evangelicals and the left were involved. So not much to choose between the two as pro- or anti-Hindu except that the Democrats believe in diversity. In the US I prefer supporting parties based on issues and what benefits the community. It is purely transactional. The second point of disagreement is that there cannot be immigration policies for Hindus or Indians only and western Europe is headed for internal strife as they chose the wrong kind and criteria of immigration. Sure if certain immigration policies are enacted they will affect Hindus or Indians to a certain degree but that is a price one should be able to pay for a better living space as those who have settled down have mostly done so permanently and it is now their own country.

Now coming back to your other points I will make some points on what I have gathered both from anecdotes and information. According to Pew Hindus have the highest retention rates among religions at 80%. Jews are at 77%, Muslims at 75%. The general trend in the west is towards unaffiliation. Various people have given various explanations. Some of these are unable to come to terms with religion specially Christianity, materialism, it being cool to not have a spiritual or value system or being religious specially among the youth. So there is spiritual vaccum in the west. But these are not atheists but those that are dissatisfied for one or the other reasons. So Hindu kids are growing up in a society where the move away from religion is the trend and many imbibe it. This is specially true for 2 and 3 generation where they are unable to "connect". In my experience this is for three reasons 1) parents do not themselves practice or know or are able to explain the religion, 2) pressure to assimilate and 3) marrying out without specifying religion. Only 1-2% of Hindus have converted to Christianity so that is not the answer. The thing about marrying out. Indians have a very high rate of "marrying in" at 91%. And the practice of marrying out is more prevalent in 2 and 3 generation. But even this is higher than in UK or Canada. The reason is that in the UK and Canada the community is very concentrated and it is easier to find a Hindu or Indian partner. In the US the population is more disperse till recently in NY-NJ, CA or other urban areas where the chances of meeting a Hindu/Indian that you like are less. The Jews also marry out heavily but they are compensated by the high birth rate of conservative and orthodox Jews. In the Carribean and south Africa conversion to Christianity started during colonial era but thereafter it was mostly pressure from black Africans. Wherever there was no pressure people have remained largely Hindu e.g. Malaysia, Fiji, Mauritius, Suriname. The good trend in the US is the large number of converts to Hinduism. In my estimate there may be a million converts to Hinduism in the US. In general Indian minorities form a higher percentage of migrants than Hindus. In certain communities you will find very few migrants e.g. Marathis, Haryanvi, Rajasthani, etc. In certain communities you will find higher rates of migration e.g. Punjabis, Gujratis, Telegus, etc. Christians are migrating in large number to the west. There are now about a million in the US alone. Sikhs have migrated heavily to UK and Canada. Muslims migrate to the Gulf but that is mostly temporary.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 09 Mar 2018 00:10

Jains and Sikhs are highly overrepresented compared to their Indian population share - both of which are understandable given the dynamics within the two communities.

Christians, if one gives credence to the PEW survey, are as high as 18% - broken up as 11% Protestant, 5% Catholic and 3% others. Catholic and Others (I presume mostly Orthodox Christians) I can understand again - probably being predominantly Goans / Mangaloreans and Kerala Syrian Christians. Its the 11% Protestant that is eye-catching....I would put my money on a large part of that being Hindus who have converted in the US.

However this is certainly at odds with another PEW survey that says that Hindu Americans have 80% retention rates and that most of those who switch land up as unaffiliated.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 09 Mar 2018 20:30

Rakesh wrote:With F-16 sale on hold, US-India ‘2+2 Ministerial’ meet to be ‘stormy’

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 936109.ece

Many of these pro-US journalists writing in the Indian media talk straight out of their ass

They think that India should be greatful that India was offered f16 by the Americans. These idiots don't even bother to Google and understand that the f16 is plane from the 70s that is nearing its end of life.

India cannot afford to stop it's engagements with the US. It is India's official policy to placate the Americans. We HAVE to engage them in these meeting when they propose it, and decline their offers nicely.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 09 Mar 2018 21:37

Arjun, that proportion of Catholic and Protestant Christians is in line to their proportion in India. According to Pew only 1-2% of Hindus in US have converted to Christianity. 10% Indians are unaffiliated predominantly of Hindu origin.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 09 Mar 2018 22:55

Supratik, 70% of Indian Christians are Catholic whereas the situation is the reverse in the case of Indian Americans.

Also, while Goan / Mangalorean Catholics and Syrian Christians are known to be enterprising communities, there are no equivalents I can think of in the Protestant case (possibly Christian Nadars but numbers would be much smaller)

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Mar 2018 00:50

Do we know yet if the tariffs affect Indian steel and companies? I can’t find any information from the NYT or WSJ. Other Indian news sources don’t say anything yet.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 10 Mar 2018 01:10

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 232274.cms

CHENNAI: The United States' move to impose tariffs on certain steel and aluminium imports is likely to impact India's shipments of engineering items to America, exporters' body EEPC said today.

Engineering Export Promotion Council (EEPC) Chairman Ravi Sehgal said protectionist measures taken by countries like the US would provoke other regions such as Europe and China into taking retaliatory steps, which would further dent exports from India.

India's exports of steel items to the US are estimated at about USD 500 million per year. The country's share in prime steel imports in the US is 1.28 per cent, while in aluminium it is 1.12 per cent.

"Certainly the move by the US would impact India's engineering exports, maybe not directly but indirectly. The price movement of products would become volatile now," Sehgal told PTI.

It looks like the world is going back to the era of Cold War, raising trade barriers and protectionist steps, he added.

US President Donald Trump has imposed heavy tariffs on imported steel and aluminium which he said were necessary to boost the American industry suffering from "unfair" business practices. The move has sparked fears of a global trade war.

Trump signed two proclamations that levied a 25 per cent tariff on steel and 10 per cent tariff on aluminium imported from all countries except Canada and Mexico. The contentious tariffs will come into effect in 15 days.

The import tariffs are likely to face retaliation from America's top trading partners, especially the European Union and China.

So we have 1-1.3% of US import market on these items. China has about 2% of it.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 10 Mar 2018 01:12

Rudradev wrote: New blood, in large transfusions, is an absolute must for such institutions and safeguards to develop. There's no way around it.

Indeed Saar. Demographics is destiny. The right type of demographics will lead to the desirable destiny.

However, this immigration into the US from India in the foreseeable future is unlikely to materialise. Blame it on the decimation of the American dream.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Mar 2018 01:22

So we have 1-1.3% of US import market on these items. China has about 2% of it.

So tis more about kowtowing to Harley Davis motorbike imports.

mappunni · Post by **mappunni** » 10 Mar 2018 01:23

Arjun wrote:Supratik, 70% of Indian Christians are Catholic whereas the situation is the reverse in the case of Indian Americans.

Also, while Goan / Mangalorean Catholics and Syrian Christians are known to be enterprising communities, there are no equivalents I can think of in the Protestant case (possibly Christian Nadars but numbers would be much smaller)

At least in DFW area or for that matter Texas, Florida and NJ/NY area most of the Indian Christians are from Kerala. Mostly Syrian Christians and a few Catholics. In DFW area there are about 13 Mallu churches belonging to Syrian Christians. Most of these folks from Kerala migrated thru visa for Nurses since the 70s. The folks from Kerala like who arrived in the mid to late 90s are mostly Hindus thru the IT route.

There about 7 or more Hindu temples in DFW area with different groups having their own temples with at least one each for Telugu and Mallu folks.

saip · Post by **saip** » 10 Mar 2018 01:49

ramana wrote:
So we have 1-1.3% of US import market on these items. China has about 2% of it.
So tis more about kowtowing to Harley Davis motorbike imports.

Most of the Harley Davidsons are assembled in India and so do not pay tariff. Indian steel already has anti-dumping and countervailing duties on it.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 10 Mar 2018 02:18

CKD and semi knocked down also have tariff and I think they get some relief if there's some percentage of local sourcing.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Mar 2018 03:19

ramana wrote:
So we have 1-1.3% of US import market on these items. China has about 2% of it.
So tis more about kowtowing to Harley Davis motorbike imports.

WSJ says 2.4% of of US imported steel comes from India and 2.2% from China.