India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13064
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Oct 2019 21:34

Should take a "get educated or buzz off" campaign. I am tired of seeing these so-called Political Leaders who are less knowledgeable about foreign affairs than a kindergartner. No tolerance needed for such stupidity - call them out as stupid like the Hon POTUS does.

About 20 years ago someone took a poll and showed that the Majority Opinion in the United States Congress was that Indiapakistan was a country somewhere in the middle east. But in 2019 to be such cretins?

Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2772
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rony » 11 Oct 2019 06:01

On S 386 from acting director of USCIS


Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20150
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Philip » 14 Oct 2019 17:22

Indo-US relations are in general good, but the chaotic political situ in the US right now with the Democrats and establishment, including intel entities, want Trump impeached, at the very least so disgraced as to lose the pres. election and a second term.The chief teason is that
Trump has not started new wars around the globe, which the oil/ arms lobby want, and is actually v.sensibly pulling back US troops from the chaos across the globe created bh his predecessors in the House of the Whiteman.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53475
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ramana » 14 Oct 2019 23:50

Rony, What is S 386 about?

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12872
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Suraj » 15 Oct 2019 00:22

ramana wrote:Rony, What is S 386 about?

In the original:
S.386 - Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act of 2019
This bill increases the per-country cap on family-based immigrant visas from 7% of the total number of such visas available that year to 15%, and eliminates the 7% cap for employment-based immigrant visas. It also removes an offset that reduced the number of visas for individuals from China.

The bill also establishes transition rules for employment-based visas from FY2020-FY2022, by reserving a percentage of EB-2 (workers with advanced degrees or exceptional ability) and EB-3 (skilled and other workers) visas for individuals not from the two countries with the largest number of recipients of such visas. Of the unreserved visas, not more than 85% shall be allotted to immigrants from any single country.

This is the Senate bill. The corresponding House bill is H.R.1044 - Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act of 2019, which passed in July 2019.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53475
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ramana » 15 Oct 2019 02:17

Thanks. This is the paradox.
When it comes to highly skilled immigrants all rhetoric breaks down.

HSI will take away jobs of the urbans and cause voter support meltdown.

Hence Republican Senate is sitting on the S 386 in Senate.

We are at a crux on the matter.

As Democrats have passed the bill in Congress we can hope a Democrat President if elected could seek to have the bill passed in new Senate.
If Republicans win 2020, also can seek to have the bill passed.

Fund raisers will raise this topic when candidates come with the hat.

V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 536
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby V_Raman » 15 Oct 2019 02:24

if it cause urban vote confusion - woudnt republicans pass it as that affects dems more?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53475
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ramana » 15 Oct 2019 02:34

I said meltdown not confusion.
HSI visas will take away the urban educated jobs aka rice bowl.
However LSI visas will take away farm labor and reduce farmers to penury.
Democrats want to give LSI visas which will benefit the farmers who are mostly Republicans.

Democrats want Indian American funds.
Republicans so far have their own sources.

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3028
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ArjunPandit » 15 Oct 2019 02:34

^^not sure if we discussed this ..
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/01/us/h ... wsuit.html
Harvard Does Not Discriminate Against Asian-Americans in Admissions, Judge Rules (But India has caste system) i know many indian
wannabe bibis who quoted as indian girl, triumphing against all society odds kind of crap in their SOPs or whatever..

Harvard Does Not Discriminate Against Asian-Americans in Admissions, Judge Rules

A federal judge on Tuesday rejected claims that Harvard had intentionally discriminated against Asian-American applicants, in a closely watched case that presented one of the biggest legal challenges to affirmative action in years.

The lawsuit against the university came from a group hoping to overturn a longstanding Supreme Court precedent that allows race to be considered as one factor among many in admissions, but prohibits universities from using racial quotas.

The group argued that Harvard had favored black and Hispanic applicants at the expense of another minority group — a strategic reversal of past affirmative action lawsuits in which the plaintiff complained that white students had been treated unfairly.

The judge, Allison D. Burroughs, rejected the plaintiff’s argument, and said that the university met the strict constitutional standard for considering race in its admissions process.

In her decision, Judge Burroughs defended the benefits of diversity, saying it was not yet time to look beyond race in college admissions. “Diversity,” she wrote, “will foster the tolerance, acceptance and understanding that will ultimately make race conscious admissions obsolete.”

The case drew widespread scrutiny, including from dozens of other top-ranked colleges that expressed their support in court filings, and from the Justice Department, which backed the plaintiff and is pursuing its own investigation. The decision will be appealed and is widely expected to reach the Supreme Court.

The plaintiff, Students for Fair Admissions, represents a group of Asian-American students rejected by Harvard. Led by Edward Blum, a conservative activist who waged previous battles against affirmative action, the students accused the college of violating federal civil rights law by holding Asian-Americans, who as a group get better test scores and grades than other races, to a higher standard. Harvard did this, they said, in part by downgrading applications from Asian-Americans based on a subjective rating system that was vulnerable to stereotyping.

[Read five takeaways from the 130-page ruling.]

Students for Fair Admissions made four interrelated claims: that Harvard intentionally discriminated against Asian-Americans; that it used race as a predominant factor in admissions decisions; that it racially balanced its classes; and that it had considered applicants’ race without first exhausting race-neutral alternatives to create diversity. Judge Burroughs cleared the university of all four claims.

Still, she said that Harvard’s admissions process was “not perfect.”

The judge suggested that Harvard could do more to guard against the unconscious biases of admissions officers, echoing an argument that the plaintiff made at trial. She noted more explicit guidelines on using race that were developed for the officers during the litigation, and said the officers could also be made aware of significant statistical disparities related to race.

These criticisms are likely to drive a review of admissions at schools across the country, to make sure they are not vulnerable to the same suggestions.

Despite the imperfections, she said, the court would not tear down “a very fine admissions program that passes constitutional muster, solely because it could do better.”

Students for Fair Admissions, a nonprofit representing a group of Asian-American students who were rejected by Harvard, accused the college of violating federal civil rights law by holding Asian-Americans to a higher standard. A judge ruled in Harvard’s favor.

In an email, Larry Bacow, Harvard’s president, credited Harvard students who testified during the trial with vividly making the case for diversity through their own stories. “The power of American higher education stems from a devotion to learning from our differences,” he said. “Affirming that promise will make our colleges, and our society, stronger still.”

Other universities breathed sighs of relief when the decision came out. “We are gratified that this decision unambiguously respects more than four decades of U.S. Supreme Court precedent,” Ted Mitchell, president of the American Council on Education, a trade group, said in a statement on Tuesday.

But they also recognized that the federal court ruling, while important, is just a step along the way and is far from the final say in the case.

Mr. Blum has filed additional challenges to affirmative action against the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in federal court and the University of Texas at Austin in state court.


The Harvard case raised powerful issues of class, race and power in American society. Critics of the university admissions process said it showed how the white establishment was afraid of losing its dominance to another racial group. Defenders said that while it might be flawed, the Harvard system tried to forge a more perfect society.

Harvard admissions officers pointed out that they could fill the freshman class with students with perfect test scores if they wanted to, and that figuring out which apparently highly qualified students to reject was a delicate, difficult balance.

Judge Burroughs, who was appointed by President Barack Obama, noted in her ruling that Asian-American applicants were accepted to Harvard at the same rate as other applicants and now made up more than 20 percent of the admitted class, even though Asian-Americans made up about 6 percent of the United States population.

Some students on Harvard’s campus said they were pleased with the decision, although they said they were apprehensive about what would happen if the case made it to the Supreme Court.

“Honestly for me, the overwhelming feeling is fear or a little bit of anxiety,” said Andrew Ham, 19, a sophomore from South Korea. “What I’m afraid of is affirmative action or race-conscious admissions being struck down nationwide.”

Zeel Patel, a sophomore who is Indian-Canadian, said that he disagreed with the judge’s decision, and that he hoped the Supreme Court would ultimately put a check on Harvard’s use of race in admissions.

“We all agree that diversity is important, but it’s more so like the means by which we actually get to the diversity,” he said.

The trial unveiled many secrets of Harvard’s arcane admissions process. There was testimony about a “Dean’s List” of students who were earmarked for special consideration because of their wealth and connections; about lowering the SAT requirements for white students in “sparse country,” rural areas where few applicants applied to Harvard; about how recruited athletes and the children of alumni and faculty received large preferences, and about how admissions officers from Ivy League schools got together every year to compare notes on admissions by race.

The Harvard trial contributed to a populist backlash against elite colleges that snowballed in the spring, when federal prosecutors accused 50 people of participating in a scheme by wealthy families to bribe their children’s way into schools like Stanford and Yale.

The trial was steeped in statistical evidence and terminology that spectators often struggled to understand. In the end, the judge’s 130-page decision was not overly seduced by statistics. But she sided more often than not with Harvard’s expert, David Card, an economist at the University of California, Berkeley.

She rejected the argument that “tips,” or admissions advantages, received by some black and Hispanic students were unfair. While some racial groups did receive tips, she said, “most Harvard students from every racial group have a roughly similar level of academic potential” despite significant differences in their SAT scores and grades.

The plaintiff had failed, she said, to counter Harvard’s argument that race-neutral admissions schemes, like admitting students based on where they lived, would lead to a decline in qualified black and Hispanic students.

The trial was painful for many Asian-Americans, a group that overwhelmingly supports affirmative action but includes many people who feel they have been stereotyped in admissions.

Lee C. Cheng, a founder and director of the Asian American Legal Foundation, said he was concerned and surprised by the extent of the judge’s support for Harvard’s policy, which he viewed as racist.

“I think the data showed Harvard racially stereotyped a group of Americans who are supposed to have the same rights to be free from the stigma of racial classification,” Mr. Cheng said.

Others disagreed, and denounced the plaintiff’s efforts. Bhargavi Garimella, 18, a freshman from California who applauded the judge’s decision, said she was upset by how Mr. Blum had involved Asian-Americans in his quest to end affirmative action. (same kind of wannabe bibi i was talking about)

“I was really uncomfortable with the idea of Asian-Americans as a whole being used,” she said, adding, “Taking down affirmative action would be detrimental to all people of color.”

In her decision, Judge Burroughs imagined a future in which race would no longer be needed in admissions. She quoted the novelist Toni Morrison, who died in August, saying that “race is the least reliable information you can have about someone.”

But Ms. Morrison’s words, the judge said, had to “become accepted and understood before we close the curtain on race conscious admissions policies.”

this coupled with the fact that SAT score fudging/manipulation also happened here.
A few years back, I had a very heated discussion with an ABCD who was trying to make me drink american kooler that here in US everything goes by merit and when I pointed her that India has ~30-40K high quality engineering college seats coming out every year from IIT and NITs, of which majority are hungry, hard working and competitive, unlike many i came across from NYU, Ithaca and Rutgers in my consulting experience.
After some point i backed off with a smile in deference of the respect for her grandparents who were super nice and friendly

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53475
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ramana » 15 Oct 2019 02:37

Was the judge from harvard?

In Santa Clara, Ca there was a judge who presided over a rape trial by a Stanford sports team member.
And the judge was formerly on that team!!!!

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3028
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ArjunPandit » 15 Oct 2019 02:44

Not very far, if i am not mistaken UPenn,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_Dale_Burroughs

Code: Select all

She received a Bachelor of Arts degree, cum laude, from Middlebury College. She received a Juris Doctor, cum laude, in 1988 from the University of Pennsylvania Law School. She began her legal career as a law clerk for Judge Norma L. Shapiro of the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania from 1988 to 1989. She served as an Assistant United States Attorney in the Eastern District of Pennsylvania from 1989 to 1995 and in the District of Massachusetts from 1995 to 2005. From 2005 to 2014 she was a partner at Nutter McClennen & Fish where she represented individuals and corporations in criminal and civil proceedings primarily before Federal Courts

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11603
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby A_Gupta » 15 Oct 2019 03:20

AFAIK, S386 is held up by in the Senate by Dick Durbin (Democrat) and also has opposition from Trump.
https://www.am22tech.com/hr1044-s386-vo ... ate-floor/

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12872
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Suraj » 15 Oct 2019 03:27

ramana wrote:I said meltdown not confusion.
HSI visas will take away the urban educated jobs aka rice bowl.
However LSI visas will take away farm labor and reduce farmers to penury.
Democrats want to give LSI visas which will benefit the farmers who are mostly Republicans.

Democrats want Indian American funds.
Republicans so far have their own sources.

I don't have USCIS figures, but the proposal doesn't really impact jobs that way, though that's how the political arguments would tend to portray it. Right now, up to 7% of the 140K green cards (technically, the immigrant visa, which leads to a green card) in the employer-sponsored category can be allocated to one country. That means up to 9800 employment based green cards to Chinese or Indian nationals. Assuming these are both fully subscribed, this leaves behind 120400 visas for rest of world. Typically (I don't have USCIS data, just recollection) these 140K visas are not used up fully. The bill seeks to capture these unused visas, but it's caught up in politics. Family based immigrant visas in any case significantly exceeds employment based green cards.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7913
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Mort Walker » 15 Oct 2019 04:36

ramana wrote:Was the judge from harvard?

In Santa Clara, Ca there was a judge who presided over a rape trial by a Stanford sports team member.
And the judge was formerly on that team!!!!


Apparently another Ivy Leaguer from UPenn.

The rule should be that anyone who holds a degree in law, business or the humanities (social sciences) from an Ivy League should be BANNED from any and all public service positions. These 8 Ivy League institutions have created the most trouble in US government and industry.

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10253
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 15 Oct 2019 05:10

ramana wrote:Hence Republican Senate is sitting on the S 386 in Senate.

It seems Sen. Rand Paul and his 7 cohorts - Libertarians - of the GOP are the ones who are fighting tooth and nail against this bill. Libertarians are against immigration in general. Old BRF archives would yield gnyaan on Ron Paul, F/O of Rand Paul, who had a xenophobic streak unparalleled in recent times.

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10253
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 15 Oct 2019 05:23

ArjunPandit wrote:^^not sure if we discussed this ..
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/01/us/h ... wsuit.html
The judge, Allison D. Burroughs, rejected the plaintiff’s argument, ...


Allison Burroughs Wikipedia page

Judge Burroughs has also presided over several class actions ... and cases against each of Nestle, The Hershey Company, and Mars alleging that the companies violated Massachusetts law by failing to disclose the use of slave labor in their cocoa bean supply lines. Judge Burroughs dismissed the complaints against the chocolate bar companies in January 2019, and the cases are now on appeal.[13] In September 2019, Burroughs also dismissed a class action suit that claimed the packaging of Honey Bunches of Oats cereal was misleading given the cereal’s limited honey content.


Hmm... Is she in the pockets of big corps., hain jee? One wonders.

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3028
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ArjunPandit » 15 Oct 2019 19:16

Mort Walker wrote:
ramana wrote:Was the judge from harvard?

In Santa Clara, Ca there was a judge who presided over a rape trial by a Stanford sports team member.
And the judge was formerly on that team!!!!


Apparently another Ivy Leaguer from UPenn.

The rule should be that anyone who holds a degree in law, business or the humanities (social sciences) from an Ivy League should be BANNED from any and all public service positions. These 8 Ivy League institutions have created the most trouble in US government and industry.

why law??I can still understand about it.but it is inhuman to subject tender humanity grads to humane work of corproate world

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11603
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby A_Gupta » 16 Oct 2019 16:36

http://indiafacts.org/india-needs-to-re ... -and-icon/
India Needs to Re-assess Donald Trump as a Suitable Partner and Icon

Therefore, it would be a good idea at this stage to give a simple bullet-point presentation why India, the Modi administration and the Indic forces should adopt a very careful and nuanced stance on Trump and his regime now and in the near future, particularly in the run-up to the American Presidential elections and its fall-out.

ʘ Trump’s litany of offences is getting longer and longer. Earlier, they were confined to tax dodges, inappropriate behavior with women etc.

ʘ Now, they extend to very questionable conduct in international affairs, including involving foreign countries and their leaders in the domestic political affairs of the U.S.

ʘ Babu Trump has also displayed most convoluted political stances, the latest being his despicable sell-out of the Syrian Kurds to the abominable Turks under Erdogan. This ranks near the Munich episode of 1938 on the scale of infamy. If the fellow can do this to the Kurds, what is the assurance he will not do it to India?

ʘ Trump’s continuous waffling on Indo-Pakistani relations, specifically his harrumphing on mediation in Kashmir, is an ominous red flag for Raisina Hill. There are no surprises for guessing who will do the mediation. The man shows disturbing indications of paranoia of the most uncontrolled variety.

ʘ The saffron forces in Nagpur and Delhi will be making a big mistake if they think that the Indian Diaspora in America is clearly on the side of Donald Duck. Most of the Indians in professional positions in universities and in Silicon Valley make no effort to hide their disdain for the man.

ʘ The Democrats do not, by any standards, have a squeaky-clean record in Indo-American relations. Nevertheless, it would be a gross mistake for South Block to neglect the Democrats in the next few months. One never knows what the composition of the next administration will be. Therefore, India must not burn its bridges with the Democrats. To allow the 7-11 shop owners and owners of motels to formulate New Delhi’s policies with the world’s only super-power would be folly of the highest order.

America is an extremely complicated animal by any standards. According to one of the jokes the French crack about the country that they helped to create, America is the greatest country in the United States. And then, of course, there is a wisecrack that will enable the State Department to deny you a visa for a few lifetimes: what’s the difference between the US and yogurt? If you leave yogurt alone for 300 years, it develops a culture. Are South Block and Nagpur listening?

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13064
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 16 Oct 2019 17:02

Disappointingly stupid article for IndiaFacts. Missed the opportunity to complete the CNN slavery of the author by attacking Tulsi Gabbard (see CNN todin: "a record of supporting DICTATOR Assad and Russia")

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53475
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2019 22:15

That article is sitting in Delhi and imagining things about Silicon Valley etc.
and the mention of 'saffron forces' indicates the point of view of the author.
Quite green.
Basically bokwas to snipe at GOI while pretending to understand US.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53475
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2019 22:17

Does that writer recall Trueman and Gen. George Marshall, had stopped support of KMT Chang Kai Shek and that led toe Communist China and ended the long Chinese Civil war going on since Sun Yat Sun died.

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3510
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rudradev » 16 Oct 2019 23:47

I completely agree with the article in India Facts. Indian-Americans who continue supporting the Republican Party are simply too numb in the mind to recognize the feeling of spit trickling off their faces.

Modi leveraged considerable capital to gift-wrap Indian-American votes and political support, and virtually hand them to Trump in Houston last month. Trump threw the gift in the gutter.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7226
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby nachiket » 17 Oct 2019 00:14

Rudradev wrote:I completely agree with the article in India Facts. Indian-Americans who continue supporting the Republican Party are simply too numb in the mind to recognize the feeling of spit trickling off their faces.

Modi leveraged considerable capital to gift-wrap Indian-American votes and political support, and virtually hand them to Trump in Houston last month. Trump threw the gift in the gutter.

Well it's not like they're spoilt for choice anyway. Neither the donkeys nor the elephants care for them. The elephants because of their racist and Christian Fundamentalist proclivities and the donkeys because of the loony left and its warped view of India and Hindus. All of this could have been overcome if the size of the Indian-American vote-bank was large enough to matter. But aside from some areas of New Jersey and SIlicon Valley it really isn't, compared to the hispanic, african-american and even the Muslim vote-bank (they arrive from multiple countries, usually with Family green cards from the start and Citizenship very quickly unlike the Indians who have to wait decades to get green cards these days).

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3510
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rudradev » 17 Oct 2019 01:01

The thing is both Elephants and Donkeys have constituencies that Indian (specifically Hindu) Americans can tap into and gain traction with.

On the Democratic side, look at Bill Maher. On the Republican side, consider David Frum. We just haven't been very clever about identifying our target constituencies and cultivating them.

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3510
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rudradev » 17 Oct 2019 01:14

nachiket wrote: All of this could have been overcome if the size of the Indian-American vote-bank was large enough to matter. But aside from some areas of New Jersey and SIlicon Valley it really isn't, compared to the hispanic, african-american and even the Muslim vote-bank (they arrive from multiple countries, usually with Family green cards from the start and Citizenship very quickly unlike the Indians who have to wait decades to get green cards these days).


Ummm the 2016 election was decided by some 70000 votes. Since 2000 this has been an era of extremely close elections in the US. No vote bank is too small to matter, especially if it has the kind of cash we do.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7226
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby nachiket » 17 Oct 2019 02:31

Rudradev wrote:Ummm the 2016 election was decided by some 70000 votes. Since 2000 this has been an era of extremely close elections in the US. No vote bank is too small to matter, especially if it has the kind of cash we do.

Yes, 70000 votes in a few key battleground states. The locations are as important as the number. There are large numbers (relatively) of Indian American voters in states which are solidly behind one party (usually donkeys) where elections can be -predicted way before they happen. I am happy to be shown wrong. Nothing would please me more than Indian-Americans becoming a vote-bank that gets talked about in US elections. But they never really have been and that usually comes down to numbers. Chinese Americans are present in much larger numbers but they too suffer from the same location issues IMHO and usually get lumped together with the all-encompassing "Asian" community. But they are very active politically in local and state elections where they can make their numbers count. We are starting to see this in the Indian community as well in places like NJ etc. But this does not translate to presidential elections.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7226
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby nachiket » 17 Oct 2019 02:47

Rudradev wrote:On the Democratic side, look at Bill Maher. On the Republican side, consider David Frum. We just haven't been very clever about identifying our target constituencies and cultivating them.

Bill Maher is refreshingly different from the usual leftist cabal when it comes to calling a spade a spade about Islamism and the Left's propensity to make common cause with it. He is also critical of unchecked political-correctness and "wokeness" stifling free speech.

To my knowledge he hasn't talked about India and Hinduism much either good or bad. But I would be hesitant to expect anything different from him compared to other western liberal intellectuals for the simple reason that these guys get most of their information about India from our own leftist journalists and intellectuals who as we know present an extremely distorted and disingenuous picture to them which they swallow hook line and sinker. Christopher Hitchens for example was even more scathing and acerbic than Bill Maher or Sam Harris when it came to criticism of the excesses of both major Abrahamic religions. Yet he fell into the same trap of "Sanghis and Hindu Nationalist - Bad!!" when it came to India. I remember a wonderful video of him taking his friend Shashi Tharoor apart in a debate and exposing his hypocrisy of pandering to Muslims. In the same video he referred to Sanghis and Hindu Nationalists as well.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7913
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Mort Walker » 17 Oct 2019 05:30

A_Gupta wrote:http://indiafacts.org/india-needs-to-re-assess-donald-trump-as-a-suitable-partner-and-icon/
India Needs to Re-assess Donald Trump as a Suitable Partner and Icon

Therefore, it would be a good idea at this stage to give a simple bullet-point presentation why India, the Modi administration and the Indic forces should adopt a very careful and nuanced stance on Trump and his regime now and in the near future, particularly in the run-up to the American Presidential elections and its fall-out.

ʘ Trump’s litany of offences is getting longer and longer. Earlier, they were confined to tax dodges, inappropriate behavior with women etc.

ʘ Now, they extend to very questionable conduct in international affairs, including involving foreign countries and their leaders in the domestic political affairs of the U.S.

ʘ Babu Trump has also displayed most convoluted political stances, the latest being his despicable sell-out of the Syrian Kurds to the abominable Turks under Erdogan. This ranks near the Munich episode of 1938 on the scale of infamy. If the fellow can do this to the Kurds, what is the assurance he will not do it to India?

ʘ Trump’s continuous waffling on Indo-Pakistani relations, specifically his harrumphing on mediation in Kashmir, is an ominous red flag for Raisina Hill. There are no surprises for guessing who will do the mediation. The man shows disturbing indications of paranoia of the most uncontrolled variety.

ʘ The saffron forces in Nagpur and Delhi will be making a big mistake if they think that the Indian Diaspora in America is clearly on the side of Donald Duck. Most of the Indians in professional positions in universities and in Silicon Valley make no effort to hide their disdain for the man.

ʘ The Democrats do not, by any standards, have a squeaky-clean record in Indo-American relations. Nevertheless, it would be a gross mistake for South Block to neglect the Democrats in the next few months. One never knows what the composition of the next administration will be. Therefore, India must not burn its bridges with the Democrats. To allow the 7-11 shop owners and owners of motels to formulate New Delhi’s policies with the world’s only super-power would be folly of the highest order.

America is an extremely complicated animal by any standards. According to one of the jokes the French crack about the country that they helped to create, America is the greatest country in the United States. And then, of course, there is a wisecrack that will enable the State Department to deny you a visa for a few lifetimes: what’s the difference between the US and yogurt? If you leave yogurt alone for 300 years, it develops a culture. Are South Block and Nagpur listening?


This is a very flawed analysis. Just the bolded portion indicates the author doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. "Saffron forces" phrase is one of a complete dumb fukc. The Modi government knows full well that Trump throws friends and allies under the bus regularly. They know the relationship is transactional. Trump is entirely tribal much along the same lines as Laloo Yadav and his clan. Note that at the Howdy Modi event, that Modi not only invited Trump to India, but the entire Trump parivaar. That right there indicated that MSD knows how the orangeutan works. Give them some credit.

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3879
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KLNMurthy » 17 Oct 2019 07:31

A_Gupta wrote:http://indiafacts.org/india-needs-to-re-assess-donald-trump-as-a-suitable-partner-and-icon/
India Needs to Re-assess Donald Trump as a Suitable Partner and Icon

Therefore, it would be a good idea at this stage to give a simple bullet-point presentation why India, the Modi administration and the Indic forces should adopt a very careful and nuanced stance on Trump and his regime now and in the near future, particularly in the run-up to the American Presidential elections and its fall-out.

ʘ Trump’s litany of offences is getting longer and longer. Earlier, they were confined to tax dodges, inappropriate behavior with women etc.

ʘ Now, they extend to very questionable conduct in international affairs, including involving foreign countries and their leaders in the domestic political affairs of the U.S.

ʘ Babu Trump has also displayed most convoluted political stances, the latest being his despicable sell-out of the Syrian Kurds to the abominable Turks under Erdogan. This ranks near the Munich episode of 1938 on the scale of infamy. If the fellow can do this to the Kurds, what is the assurance he will not do it to India?

ʘ Trump’s continuous waffling on Indo-Pakistani relations, specifically his harrumphing on mediation in Kashmir, is an ominous red flag for Raisina Hill. There are no surprises for guessing who will do the mediation. The man shows disturbing indications of paranoia of the most uncontrolled variety.

ʘ The saffron forces in Nagpur and Delhi will be making a big mistake if they think that the Indian Diaspora in America is clearly on the side of Donald Duck. Most of the Indians in professional positions in universities and in Silicon Valley make no effort to hide their disdain for the man.

ʘ The Democrats do not, by any standards, have a squeaky-clean record in Indo-American relations. Nevertheless, it would be a gross mistake for South Block to neglect the Democrats in the next few months. One never knows what the composition of the next administration will be. Therefore, India must not burn its bridges with the Democrats. To allow the 7-11 shop owners and owners of motels to formulate New Delhi’s policies with the world’s only super-power would be folly of the highest order.

America is an extremely complicated animal by any standards. According to one of the jokes the French crack about the country that they helped to create, America is the greatest country in the United States. And then, of course, there is a wisecrack that will enable the State Department to deny you a visa for a few lifetimes: what’s the difference between the US and yogurt? If you leave yogurt alone for 300 years, it develops a culture. Are South Block and Nagpur listening?

It's not that complicated. India under Modi will try to have friendly and advantageous relations with the US, no matter who is President. If Modi put aside the gross personal insults delivered to him under Baby Bush and Obama, and became buddy-buddy with Barack, and, without blinking, became best pals with Barack's sworn enemy Donald, you can bet he is going to hug to death Lizzie behenji, or Biden bhaiya, or Brother Bernie, should any of them become President tomorrow. All same-same only, India First.

KL Dubey
BRFite
Posts: 607
Joined: 16 Dec 2016 22:34

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KL Dubey » 17 Oct 2019 07:38

Rudradev wrote:Bill Maher is refreshingly different from the usual leftist cabal when it comes to calling a spade a spade about Islamism and the Left's propensity to make common cause with it. He is also critical of unchecked political-correctness and "wokeness" stifling free speech.


He belongs to the same caste (Mahar/Maher) as Dr Ambedkar. Good to see people wearing their identity on their sleeve instead of hiding it.

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3879
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KLNMurthy » 17 Oct 2019 07:46

Rudradev wrote:The thing is both Elephants and Donkeys have constituencies that Indian (specifically Hindu) Americans can tap into and gain traction with.

On the Democratic side, look at Bill Maher. On the Republican side, consider David Frum. We just haven't been very clever about identifying our target constituencies and cultivating them.

Bill Maher and David Frum are both articulate, mostly coherent, and when it comes to political effectiveness for their respective affiliations, ciphers. No Democrat is trying to get votes by taking Bill Maher's line, and no Republican is trying to win by taking Frum's line. Both offer some (I stress, only "some") semblance of political principle, which can be an island of intellectual clarity in the murky world of US politics, but both are politically irrelevant. There is no traction of any kind to be had from either of these "factions", since these guys don't have faction, IMHO.

FWIW, I feel the same way about the angst-ridden "anyadha saraNam naasti, Trump-eva SaraNaM mama" election-time desperation of rakshak-jingos. It's all same-same. Neither Trump nor Bernie/Warren/Tulsi/Biden can pull India's fat out of the fire, nor damage India any more or less than India is willing and able do for itself. I suspect Modi knows this better than anyone, and is much more of an equanimous sthita-prajna than any of us can be, or perhaps even imagine.

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3879
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KLNMurthy » 17 Oct 2019 07:48

KL Dubey wrote:
Rudradev wrote:Bill Maher is refreshingly different from the usual leftist cabal when it comes to calling a spade a spade about Islamism and the Left's propensity to make common cause with it. He is also critical of unchecked political-correctness and "wokeness" stifling free speech.


He belongs to the same caste (Mahar/Maher) as Dr Ambedkar. Good to see people wearing their identity on their sleeve instead of hiding it.

He represents both SC and ST leadership, he is Bhil Mahar.

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3879
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KLNMurthy » 17 Oct 2019 07:50

nachiket wrote:
Rudradev wrote:Ummm the 2016 election was decided by some 70000 votes. Since 2000 this has been an era of extremely close elections in the US. No vote bank is too small to matter, especially if it has the kind of cash we do.

Yes, 70000 votes in a few key battleground states. The locations are as important as the number. There are large numbers (relatively) of Indian American voters in states which are solidly behind one party (usually donkeys) where elections can be -predicted way before they happen. I am happy to be shown wrong. Nothing would please me more than Indian-Americans becoming a vote-bank that gets talked about in US elections. But they never really have been and that usually comes down to numbers. Chinese Americans are present in much larger numbers but they too suffer from the same location issues IMHO and usually get lumped together with the all-encompassing "Asian" community. But they are very active politically in local and state elections where they can make their numbers count. We are starting to see this in the Indian community as well in places like NJ etc. But this does not translate to presidential elections.

There is a small chance that Indian-American vote-bank (if there is such a thing) will make a difference in Texas.

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3879
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KLNMurthy » 17 Oct 2019 07:52

nachiket wrote:
Rudradev wrote:On the Democratic side, look at Bill Maher. On the Republican side, consider David Frum. We just haven't been very clever about identifying our target constituencies and cultivating them.

Bill Maher is refreshingly different from the usual leftist cabal when it comes to calling a spade a spade about Islamism and the Left's propensity to make common cause with it. He is also critical of unchecked political-correctness and "wokeness" stifling free speech.

To my knowledge he hasn't talked about India and Hinduism much either good or bad. But I would be hesitant to expect anything different from him compared to other western liberal intellectuals for the simple reason that these guys get most of their information about India from our own leftist journalists and intellectuals who as we know present an extremely distorted and disingenuous picture to them which they swallow hook line and sinker. Christopher Hitchens for example was even more scathing and acerbic than Bill Maher or Sam Harris when it came to criticism of the excesses of both major Abrahamic religions. Yet he fell into the same trap of "Sanghis and Hindu Nationalist - Bad!!" when it came to India. I remember a wonderful video of him taking his friend Shashi Tharoor apart in a debate and exposing his hypocrisy of pandering to Muslims. In the same video he referred to Sanghis and Hindu Nationalists as well.

I suspect Maher gets most of his understanding of India from salman rushdie who frequently appears on his show. Rushdie is an out-and-out Modi-hater & Cashmere-wailer.

sivab
BRFite
Posts: 935
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby sivab » 17 Oct 2019 08:11

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... cs/599554/

Naturalized citizens are at particular risk of losing their citizenship under the Trump administration, as Baljinder Singh recently discovered. Singh has lived in the United States for nearly three decades, married a U.S. citizen, and became a naturalized citizen more than 10 years ago. Nonetheless, last year the government revoked his citizenship. Why? Because when he arrived in the United States as a teenager, the government recorded his first name as “Davinder” rather than “Baljinder”—quite possibly due to an interpreter’s error—and he never received the notice to appear in immigration court under that different name.

Singh is among the first targets in a denaturalization campaign launched by the Trump administration, which opened a new office in Los Angeles last summer, staffed by dozens and dedicated to investigating the citizenship files of 700,000 naturalized Americans.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13064
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 17 Oct 2019 08:37

All else aside, the IndiaFacts article author is 404 about the realities of dealing with the "saffron Nagpurwalas". He seriously thinks they don't know the fine art of throwing friends under a bus etc? :rotfl:

His contempt for the store owners etc, and his reliance on "Silicon Valley" experts, is also clear proof of stupidity. Silicon Valley, if you look carefully, is located in ONE state: which is probably beyond reach of the elephants anyway for the next couple of years. OK, there may be a concentration as well in New York and one in Massachussetts. Both out of reach of the elephants. So they can vote donkey en masse, and it makes not a bit of difference.

But the 7/11 and motel owners whom he sneers at, are hard-working, and VERY successful, very wealthy, and in fact very powerful entities spread out over the entire nation. Maybe he doesn't realize that the Indian-American retail shop owners association had 114,000+ members. And most of those are probably millionaires though they may pretend to be borderline penniless, and live apparently simple lives. They probably donate to both parties, to hedge their bets, but very quietly they can and do make things happen.

I can't figure out why IndiaFacts published such tripe. Are they trying to get in bed with Darka Butt & undieTV? **shudder**. Metaphorically speaking of course, but even that gives the shudders.

Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2772
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rony » 17 Oct 2019 17:16

Are America’s Mass Shootings Really All About Guns ? Is Hinduism the Answer for Universal Peace ?

Let's take a look at India’s gun control. A firearm is used in no more than 10% of homicides in India, against 60% in the U.S, according to the National Crime Records Bureau. Americans are 12 times vulnerable to gun violence than Indians, according to an ‘India Spend’ analysis of data collated by Gun Policy. It is a database managed by the niversity of Sydney and funded by the United Nations.

Amongst 170 countries, India ranked 105 against America, which ranked 1. This is implausible, but still, the mainstream international media mainly shows and talks about the dark side of India, making it appears as though India is dangerous. Can you see the hypocrisy by the media, implanting in the minds of the masses that India is dangerous, and the U.S. is safe ?

In India, with 1.4 billion populations, you never hear about the mass shooting incidents like we have here in the U.S., even though their population is much greater than the U.S. My personal opinion is that it is their culture, their upbringing, their spirituality, their non-violent approach to all humanity, including animals which offers better morals and respect for humanity.

With a huge population like India, with virtually no mass shooting incidents, says a a lot about the spirituality of India regardless of the mendacities the mainstream media conveys about India being a dangerous country and America safe.

As a frequent traveler to India, I feel safer in India than in America. I have always stated that Hinduism is the only choice for world peace and humanity. One of the main tenets of Hinduism is a nonviolent approach and vegetarianism, respecting all aspects of life. I believe this has a big impact on growing up and valuing human life.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2235
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vips » 17 Oct 2019 17:16

India, USA track 1.5 dialogue next week to push ties after PM visit.

The US-India Strategic Partnership Forum (USISPF) will convene one of largest gathering of over 300 private sector executives, global CEOs, and the U.S. and Indian government leaders at the second Annual Leadership Summit in New Delhi on October 21. The theme of the summit - ' Partners For Growth' will be a full spectrum discussion on the current state of play and the growth trajectory of the U.S.-India bilateral ties. This summit is
significant in the backdrop of PM Narendra Modi's recent US visit and prospective IndoUS trade deal.

Speakers at the summit will include Minister of External Affairs, Dr. S. Jaishankar; Minister for Petroleum & Natural Gas & Steel, Dharmendra Pradhan; Minister of Commerce and Industry & Railways, Piyush Goyal; Minister of State for Finance & Corporate Affairs, Anurag Thakur; Ram Madhav, National General Secretary of the BJP; Former US Secretary of State, Dr. Condoleezza Rice; Former US Secretary of State, Dr. Henry
Kissinger
; Technical Advisor of Alphabet Inc. and former Google CEO Eric Schmidt; President & CEO, Bank of the West, Nandita Bakhshi; Chairman of PwC Global Bob Moritz; President of Emerson Mike Train, Chief Legal & Policy Officer, Netflix, David Hyman, among many others.

In a recent report, USISPF estimates that by 2025, bilateral trade could range between $283 billion to $327 billion, at an annual average growth rate of 10%-12.5% (as witnessed in 2017 and 2018). The assessment underscores a roadmap for growth and economic opportunity in the bilateral ties by highlighting current trends. Sectors such as defense trade, commercial aviation, oil and LNG, coal, machinery and electronics are areas of potential growth in U.S. investments into India. Similarly, Indian industry has an opportunity to promote key sectors including automotive, pharmaceuticals, seafood, IT and travel services to the U.S. market.

John Chambers, Chairman of USISPF, said, "The USISPF annual summit is an opportunity for effective champions of the U.S.-India relationship tocome together. Participants will use the momentum built after Prime Minister’s re-election to continue finding opportunities to strengthen the most strategic country partnership in the world. My challenge to them is to specifically explorepathways to achieve $327 billion in bilateral tradeand promote innovative thinking to address pressing regional and global issues."

USISPF President& CEO, Dr. Mukesh Aghi said, "The theme of the summit - 'Partners for Growth' highlights the deep convergence between the United States and India, both in terms of geo-politics and geo-economics.An economically strong India is necessary for advancing the US-India commercial partnership. The Modi 2.0 government has initiated a steady stream of economic reforms within a short period of time. One of the industry’s top asks that was included in our 100 day recommendations to the Government was to lower corporate tax rates— and we are delighted to see its implementation and also closer collaboration between government and industry."

The US-India Strategic Partnership Forum is committed to creating the most powerful strategic partnership between the U.S. and India.
Headquartered in Washington, D.C., USISPF has offices in New York, Silicon Valley, Mumbai, and New Delhi.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3450
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby kit » 17 Oct 2019 17:34

Mort Walker wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:http://indiafacts.org/india-needs-to-re-assess-donald-trump-as-a-suitable-partner-and-icon/
India Needs to Re-assess Donald Trump as a Suitable Partner and Icon



This is a very flawed analysis. Just the bolded portion indicates the author doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. "Saffron forces" phrase is one of a complete dumb fukc. The Modi government knows full well that Trump throws friends and allies under the bus regularly. They know the relationship is transactional. Trump is entirely tribal much along the same lines as Laloo Yadav and his clan. Note that at the Howdy Modi event, that Modi not only invited Trump to India, but the entire Trump parivaar. That right there indicated that MSD knows how the orangeutan works. Give them some credit.


Trump may not be a reliable partner, but he is the President of the United States., sometimes you will need to work with an unreliable partner whether you like it or not., some time and energy will need to be wasted on how to deal with such a situation, and this is something that has to be done, no way around it.

hanumadu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4444
Joined: 11 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby hanumadu » 17 Oct 2019 17:47

KLNMurthy wrote:
nachiket wrote:Yes, 70000 votes in a few key battleground states. The locations are as important as the number. There are large numbers (relatively) of Indian American voters in states which are solidly behind one party (usually donkeys) where elections can be -predicted way before they happen. I am happy to be shown wrong. Nothing would please me more than Indian-Americans becoming a vote-bank that gets talked about in US elections. But they never really have been and that usually comes down to numbers. Chinese Americans are present in much larger numbers but they too suffer from the same location issues IMHO and usually get lumped together with the all-encompassing "Asian" community. But they are very active politically in local and state elections where they can make their numbers count. We are starting to see this in the Indian community as well in places like NJ etc. But this does not translate to presidential elections.

There is a small chance that Indian-American vote-bank (if there is such a thing) will make a difference in Texas.


Texas is a 'non hispanic white' minority state. The mid term elections were pretty close in 2018. Indians were 1% in 2010 census. They will be slightly more today but most won't be citizens yet. If there is a recession, things will get close. If economy is doing good, Trump will win.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ambar, punitrpatel, Thakur_B and 66 guests