India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby nachiket » 24 Oct 2019 05:50

V_Raman wrote:I agree. The joke among my kids high school class "Columbus called this India as he landed at the local Costco!"

The issue is not about H1B. The issue happened due to family getting permission to work and they take up all the other jobs - Costco, Home Depot, Ross, QFC, Fred Meyer, Driving Schools, Landscaping office jobs, dentist office jobs, receptionists - you name it - you have Indians everywhere!

Ah, Indian Americans complaining about there being too many Indians in the US. Quintessentialy Indian thing to do. You rarely see this self-destructive behavior among other ethnic groups. I have always wondered why.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rony » 24 Oct 2019 05:56

nachiket wrote:
V_Raman wrote:I agree. The joke among my kids high school class "Columbus called this India as he landed at the local Costco!"

The issue is not about H1B. The issue happened due to family getting permission to work and they take up all the other jobs - Costco, Home Depot, Ross, QFC, Fred Meyer, Driving Schools, Landscaping office jobs, dentist office jobs, receptionists - you name it - you have Indians everywhere!

Ah, Indian Americans complaining about there being too many Indians in the US. Quintessentialy Indian thing to do. You rarely see this self-destructive behavior among other ethnic groups. I have always wondered why.


+1000 . I never see this mentality among Chinese, muslims (of all countries), Latinos (of all countries). This seems be a unique problem among us. If not Indians, others will migrate (legal and illegal) anyway . So why not Indians who are compared to others law abiding and pay their taxes dutifully ?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Suresh S » 24 Oct 2019 05:58

Looks like the Mongolian is on the roll baby. Whah bhai just like genghis khan . maja aa gaya

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby V_Raman » 24 Oct 2019 06:48

Rony wrote:
nachiket wrote:Ah, Indian Americans complaining about there being too many Indians in the US. Quintessentialy Indian thing to do. You rarely see this self-destructive behavior among other ethnic groups. I have always wondered why.


+1000 . I never see this mentality among Chinese, muslims (of all countries), Latinos (of all countries). This seems be a unique problem among us. If not Indians, others will migrate (legal and illegal) anyway . So why not Indians who are compared to others law abiding and pay their taxes dutifully ?


+1000 myself. I am just documenting what I hear from my "native" colleagues and social circles. My kids are not embarassed about it. But my nephew who came from India for his masters is!
Last edited by V_Raman on 24 Oct 2019 06:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 24 Oct 2019 06:49

A_Gupta wrote:... and the President can’t do an end-run around Congress’s authority, by spending or not spending monies appropriated by Congress where he chooses.


On the flipside, congress also has to give the go-ahead for any war. But not pulling troops out, I presume. How did the Obama admin start the wars - whether they called them wars or not is a different thing - in Libya and Syria without the go-ahead from COTUS?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Oct 2019 07:04

Some actual American opinion about India, rather different from what is portrayed above:
https://paulstaniland.com/2019/10/23/us ... ard-india/

In 2017: “In this measure, we see a partisan divide – Democrats are more pro-India than Republicans by 14-16 percentage points, with “Core Trump Supporters” similar to Republicans. ”

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Oct 2019 07:09

^^^^ Quote:

While the House hearings have had minimal media impact in the US – the spiraling political crisis in Washington has sucked up all the attention, among various other pressing disasters – this is an interesting time for the politics of US-India relations. With all the caveats that come with these kinds of data, it does appear to be the case that Democrats have been more pro-India in recent years. Some of this may be due to Indian-Americans tending toward the Democrats, but they remain only 1% of voters, so it not simply due to that alone.

How might we make sense of this potential change? Put simply, the rise of the BJP as India’s dominant party is not something that most Democrats are likely to view with great enthusiasm, nor any kind of Indian embrace of the staggeringly-unpopular Donald Trump (one can imagine reactions when PM Modi said in Houston that “I admire him [Trump] for something more: his sense of leadership, a passion for America, a concern for every American, a belief in American future, and a strong resolve to make America great again”). India’s justifications for its actions in Kashmir have clearly not persuaded a chunk of Democratic lawmakers, despite Indian diplomatic efforts. The globalized media environment makes other countries’ political systems more legible than in decades past: every campaign speech by Amit Shah is immediately visible to a global audience, as is every report about conditions in the Kashmir Valley.

Blaming the “liberal media” is a standard Republican line that will not get much traction among those Democrats already inclined toward skepticism. Ambassador Shringla arguing that the American media has been peddling “half-truths, untruths, factually incorrect information” similarly may not have been wildly compelling.

As Ashley Tellis has recently argued, Trump’s foreign policy toward India has been “transactional” and characterized by “capriciousness”; the dominant Trumpist wing of the Republican party should not be seen as a source of consistent comfort. In turn, with Democrats putting a greater emphasis on values and human rights in the Trump era, and identifying the spread of global illiberalism as a threat to American democracy (see, for instance, Sitaraman, Wright, Sanders, and Magsamen et al.; it’s worth noting that none of them prominently mention India one way or another), India’s favorable domestic coalition in the US may be facing new strains in the coming years.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 24 Oct 2019 07:19

V_Raman wrote:He can always declare a national emergency and get money.
Fantastic post UBji. Can I use these in my SM circles?

Of course!
**************************
Guptaji, I admire JFK and W.Clinton. Maybe Roosevelt, I don't know. But not the extremists. Back when, the KKK were the extremists. Today it is the leftists and they have taken over the party. Neither was or is good for India, Indians, Indian-Americans or India-US relations. Some of the absolutely worst logic-immune, utterly unethical and plain crooked slime Americans I know are wimmen, AA or both. I don't ask their sexual preferences, but one or two who had obvious u-no-what proclivities on display were even worse racists. No generalizations, but as they say:

Just 'cause yore paranoid don't mean they ain't out to get ya


Nachiketji, without some analysis of what goes on inside America, analysis of "Indian-American Relations" is bound to be superficial at best, more likely nonsensical. ppl sitting in DupliCity writing advice for India are no more asinine that ppl sitting in India giving advice on what will work or why, in Indo-American relations. Please consider the purpose in micro-dividing thread walls, I understand the need to stay off the donkey-elephant mudslinging. I assure you, I have no fixed love or hate for any party. If I had a vote anywhere, I would vote based on my perception of what will be good for me.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby mappunni » 24 Oct 2019 08:02

nachiket wrote:Ah, Indian Americans complaining about there being too many Indians in the US. Quintessentially Indian thing to do. You rarely see this self-destructive behavior among other ethnic groups. I have always wondered why.


Come to the city where I live and you will understand. The school district serves Indian food and Telugu is the second most spoken language at home after English and apparently next year onwards kids will be able to learn Telugu instead of Spanish as a Foreign language.

Hint: This is happening in the fastest growing city in the North Dallas area, and in fact the entire country!

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Kashi » 24 Oct 2019 08:08

mappunni wrote:Come to the city where I live and you will understand. The school district serves Indian food and Telugu is the second most spoken language at home after English and apparently next year onwards kids will be able to learn Telugu instead of Spanish as a Foreign language.

Hint: This is happening in the fastest growing city in the North Dallas area, and in fact the entire country!


Understand what??

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 24 Oct 2019 08:36

It is no different from having say, a large Spanish-speaking population come up in an area where previously everyone spoke say French. Nothing wrong with it, but you can bet that there will be frictions and resentments among the "we were here first" crowd. Happens in India all the time, no surprise that it happens in the US - probably a lot less overt in the US due to fear of repercussions.

Back decades ago I remember standing at a bus depot in the Yoo Ess and this gori old lady got to chatting with me. When she found out I was from (Mongolia which she presumed to be east of Africa I suppose) she was extremely relieved, knowing that I was not a Spanish-speaker from Florida. Told me Florida had become like a phoren country with all dem Spanish types there, etc etc.

The old lady's grandchild may be a voter in the Texas district mentioned above - and may well vote for anyone who will "control" the immigration of dem phoreners. We don't need to agree with her, just understand what happens and why, to devise how to deal with it.

Recognizing that xenophobia lurks beneath the surface in most of us, is essential to understanding policies and attempts to change them. It's not that one agrees or disagrees, just need to understand to deal with it.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Mort Walker » 24 Oct 2019 08:50

A_Gupta wrote:This is disingenuous to say the least, unworthy of a BRFer: “note that the KKK were DEMOCRATS to begin with“. Once the Democrats in the early sixties moved in favor of civil rights, citizenship for people of all nations, not just for whites, the KKK turned Republican.

The basis for there to be an Indian-American audience for Howdy Modi was laid by the Hart-Celler Act of 1965 that was done by the Democrats.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigra ... ct_of_1965
Before that, people of Indian origin could not become naturalized citizens of the US.

The legislation that the Democrats passed empowering “people of color” not only lost the South to the Democrats for a generation, as predicted by Lyndon B Johnson, it has caused a complete realignment with Democrats and Republicans switching their roles relative to pre-1960 on issues of racial equality.


This was the party 55 years ago, but not today. It is the same argument people make in India about the INC. They brought India independence, therefore all Indians must vote for the INC. The Urban Naxal Party of America needs the bhooka-nanga of the world to migrate to the US so that they may have a vote bank in the Islamo-fascists to complete the work of the anarchists. This whole business of universal basic income that they're talking about is much along the lines of MGNREGA. In other words, more failed socialism.

The Indian origin people in the US have exceeded income and education standards of whites and seek to be seated at the same table. Now the Rethuglicans don't necessarily offer that, but some do; however, the vast majority of the Urban Naxals don't except for the rare elements like Tulsi Gabbard.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Mort Walker » 24 Oct 2019 09:03

A_Gupta wrote:Some actual American opinion about India, rather different from what is portrayed above:
https://paulstaniland.com/2019/10/23/us ... ard-india/

In 2017: “In this measure, we see a partisan divide – Democrats are more pro-India than Republicans by 14-16 percentage points, with “Core Trump Supporters” similar to Republicans. ”


That's public opinion of people who identify with a political party or movement in the US. It does not identify elected members of US federal legislators or what key political leaders policy position is. The majority of the Democratic party elected officials and leaders are critical of India as of today in 2019. Period. There is no sugar coating this. They may be sympathetic to all colored people, which is good, but they will always favor an Islamist over an Indian.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby mappunni » 24 Oct 2019 09:34

Kashi wrote:
mappunni wrote:Come to the city where I live and you will understand. The school district serves Indian food and Telugu is the second most spoken language at home after English and apparently next year onwards kids will be able to learn Telugu instead of Spanish as a Foreign language.

Hint: This is happening in the fastest growing city in the North Dallas area, and in fact the entire country!


Understand what??


Read the thread Saar!

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Kashi » 24 Oct 2019 11:13

mappunni wrote:Read the thread Saar!


I am sorry mappunni saar, I didn't quite understand. I believe you posted this in response to nachiket saar's comment about "Indian Americans complaining about there being too many Indians in the US."

I was just wondering how the example you posted would help us understand this behaviour.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby g.sarkar » 24 Oct 2019 11:13

Rony wrote:
nachiket wrote:Ah, Indian Americans complaining about there being too many Indians in the US. Quintessentially Indian thing to do. You rarely see this self-destructive behavior among other ethnic groups. I have always wondered why.

+1000 . I never see this mentality among Chinese, Muslims (of all countries), Latinos (of all countries). This seems be a unique problem among us. If not Indians, others will migrate (legal and illegal) anyway . So why not Indians who are compared to others law abiding and pay their taxes dutifully ?

When I was living in Germany, often a conversation with a complete stranger would go like this: Oh, you speak so good German. How long have you been living here? When I answered, they would ask immediately, so then when are you going home?
But then at the multinational company where I was being trained, there was a slightly unhinged Indian gentleman who had lived in Berlin for decades. In the elevator he would often ask young Indians loudly in English, why are you here? why don't you go back? This amused other Germans present in the lift. If you have lived abroad for a long time, you think of yourself as gora. Then you hate others that remind you that you are not.To them I used to tell story. There were Jews living in Germany for generations. They were assimilated. Spoke the language accent free, had highly paid jobs as doctors, professors and scientists. Some owned large businesses. Many had contributed to German music and literature. But at that time Jews from Poland, Russia and other parts of eastern Europe started coming to Germany as they were seeking opportunities for a better life. The local assimilated German Jews hated these newcomers, and their outlandish clothing and accent. Then came the Nazis to power. They did not discriminate, and sent all of them to the gas-chamber. If you can not hang together, you hang separately.
Gautam

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Karthik S » 24 Oct 2019 11:16

All this stems from inferiority complex fed into brains as youngsters when those early migrant birds were in India. Not only people in US, have seen many parents looking down on their counterparts whose kids are not abroad.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby morem » 24 Oct 2019 11:20

I have personally experienced this. Engineering classmates who when to the US for their MS somehow resented me going there much later with a job in hand. Reason being 'we suffered a lot after coming here' and you came directly with a job'

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Oct 2019 11:27

It used to happen to me in the late 90's early 2000's, I was asked what was I studying by parents with similair aged children who were studying MS in USA. What are you doing, I will say for CA- pat will come a response in a superior tone- But CA has no chance emigrating to the US you know? Apparently feeling superior that their wards were now going to settle in the land of milk and honey and I am loser for planning to stay in the country of my birth.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby habal » 24 Oct 2019 11:36

this actually has nothing to do with USA. Most Indians are tuned socially to find a way to discriminate.

From birth children are taught to be competitive and that too in society divided by region, caste & class.

1. School : competitive.
2. University : competitive
3. Jobs : competitive
4. marriage : competitive
5. post marriage : competitive rat race my child betrer than urs. My job better than urs. My wife better than urs.

So net result of all this is behaviour of nri's like you see in usa.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby chola » 24 Oct 2019 13:07

mappunni wrote:
nachiket wrote:Ah, Indian Americans complaining about there being too many Indians in the US. Quintessentially Indian thing to do. You rarely see this self-destructive behavior among other ethnic groups. I have always wondered why.


Come to the city where I live and you will understand. The school district serves Indian food and Telugu is the second most spoken language at home after English and apparently next year onwards kids will be able to learn Telugu instead of Spanish as a Foreign language.

Hint: This is happening in the fastest growing city in the North Dallas area, and in fact the entire country!


Fffft. We see that everywhere with us desis. And sometimes not without reasons.

My family on both sides have members who followed the British raj to Singapore (and Hong Kong as well.) Singapore had always been Tamil heavy. But in the past decade or so our, ahem, modern brethren have flocked there as tech wallas and high end consultants in everything from trade law and doctors.

Now the Tamils who had been in Singapore and the Malay peninsula for centuries had worked their way up from laborers and field hands and still occupy many of the manual labor markets in a modern city where being a distinct minority came with all of the prejudices and disadvantages that minorities face all over the world.

As you may imagine in the desi attitude, the wealthy newcomers treat those native Indians -- who had been there and who had worked and suffered to build a more accepting Singapore for all desis -- are treated with upturn noses and disparaging remarks by the high falutin new economy wallas. I don't want to touch the "c" word but there is little else to explain this attitude.

To be honest, I love inhabiting areas where there are plenty of desis and cannot imagine living in a lily-white suburb devoid of Indians (or other Asians in fact.)

But I will not buy a house in neighborhood that is more than 30% Indians. I am not white-washed -- otherwise I wouldn't be on this forum for two decades -- but the truth is an overtly Indian dominated 'hood is actually stressful for
Indians. lol

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby syam » 24 Oct 2019 13:46

Insecurities are common in every society. We shouldn't beat ourselves over indian community situation. These things exist only on surface level. Once we get to know any Indian, it will be cool.

watch this funny sketch (NSFW)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EtalOOS-eM

I don't think our situation is this bad.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby pankajs » 24 Oct 2019 13:54

habal wrote:this actually has nothing to do with USA. Most Indians are tuned socially to find a way to discriminate.

From birth children are taught to be competitive and that too in society divided by region, caste & class.

1. School : competitive.
2. University : competitive
3. Jobs : competitive
4. marriage : competitive
5. post marriage : competitive rat race my child betrer than urs. My job better than urs. My wife better than urs.

So net result of all this is behaviour of nri's like you see in usa.

I would be careful on word choice. "Discriminate" is a very loaded term with many negative connotations especially in western/liberal circle where as "competitive" is positive to neutral.

Also, on all parameters of your choice, you've used the word "competitive" so my assumption is that you did mean to say something close to "Indians are socially very competitive" instead.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby habal » 24 Oct 2019 15:24

'discriminate' in this sense should be taken as me, my family vs rest.

Yes, one can also think up various other scenarios with that word.

competitive is positive to neutral and doesn't encapsulate thoroughly the negative effects of competition

along with competition, Indians should also be taught how to work together and as a team during formative years, to inculcate team spirit and trust. Ofcourse one learns this naturally as part of sports but sports are usually frowned upon since it is considered too risky. So most youth do not have positive experiences derived from participating in such activities.

And such positive habits must be inculcated before the social definitions and boundaries are set and defences drawn up. After a certain age doing anything doesn't make much of a difference.

Another reason I can think of is harassment of newcomers in form of ragging and other discriminatory practices although certain old-timers may wish to cast a halo on such, but these can also be severely humiliating and degrading for several students who are about to enter society as workforce or go abroad for higher studies.

In such situations it is possible to have conditions where Indians [u]may[/u] view presence of fellow Indians as a negative.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Karthik S » 24 Oct 2019 15:27

Desis in khan land, how will propaganda such as congressional hearing affect you guys? Will common citizens develop negative opinion about Indians ? I heard few 'hate' directed at desis during khobragade incident.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 24 Oct 2019 20:46

Karthik S wrote:Desis in khan land, how will propaganda such as congressional hearing affect you guys? Will common citizens develop negative opinion about Indians ? I heard few 'hate' directed at desis during khobragade incident.


Directly? IMHO close to no effect. Even those few interested folks watching CSPAN to get an understanding of what is happening in J&K, India will tune out as soon as the foul-mouthed Rep. Ilhan Omar opens her mouth. She has been turned into a caricature by POTUS. Jewish lobby ripped her mask off and showed that she is an anti-semite to the core.

What is her USP, or Rep. AOC's, or Rep. Tlaib's?!!!

But some the people who spearheaded these hearing would surely talk to their constituencies to create FUD against "polytheist idol worshippers". on the other hand, there is a lot of sensitivity among the authorities.

as long as one follows rules, i.e. do the right thing, i.e. be genrous and fair, all is good.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 24 Oct 2019 23:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KLNMurthy » 24 Oct 2019 20:48

Rony wrote:
hgupta wrote:. There are some Democrats that are pro India and they get my votes.


Except for Tulsi, which other democrats are sympathetic to Hindus ? Republicans are not either. and certainly not the evangelicals. But democrats seems to be the worst on the face Hinduphobes of either two and more accommodating of the Islamists. Its a choice between bad and worse and Dems seems to be worse for Hindus or India.

By asking that US congress members be "sympathetic" to Hindus, we may be looking at things from the wrong end of the telescope.

US elected representatives respond to lobbies. In broad policy matters, they get "married" to one lobby or another, and stay more faithful to that lobby than they do to their own spouses. Like labor, gun industry, petrochemical industry, Jewish lobby, farmer lobby, abortion (pro- and anti-) lobby, evanjehadi lobby, LGBTQ lobby, Muslim Brotherhood lobby, etc.

Is rhere a Hindu lobby? Just kidding with that question. There is definitely a Muslim Brotherhood lobby.

There is a tiny Indian lobby that focuses on H1-B, as sub-junior partner with tech industry lobby.

Best way for a startup or wannabe lobby to get Congress to bend your way is to work with an existing lobby. If you and that lobby feel a sense of mutual identification, then it works best. For Cashmere, the ummah is that ahared identity.

Lobbies are serious, passionate things. You can't have just a transactional relationship with them. You have to be all-in. Sometimes, lobbies of equal and proven power co-operate with each other (these days it is called intersectionality).

That means, hypothetically if Hindus want to work with evanjehadi lobby because they are upset with what happened due to MB lobby in Congress, and evanjehadis also are against MB, Hindus have to be either devoted evanjehadis (identification) or they have to be a powerful lobby. Both premises would be absurdly false.

If one or the other premise is to be made true, Hindus would have to ask themselves, what are they passionate about, enough to become that thing? IOW, what is their deep-down, core identity?

(Don't confuse this "identity" with "identity politics" which gets a lot of stick nowadays. Even "gun industry" is an identity, as you have to live and breathe that 24/365/all life. "Identity politics" as pejorative was invented just to confuse and weaken rival lobbies)

I don't think Hindus in America have worked out this last question. I don't think they are even at the point of believing that there is such a thing as identity. Hindus in America "take on" an identity, and don't "become" that or any other identity. Mostly it is White Educated Liberal Americans + Bharatanatyam + Bala vihar. Liberal because Hindu values, Gandhi etc. Doesn't add up to an identity.

Same way, if angry rakshaks want to "take on" white evanjehadi or gun lobby or pollution lobby identities because they are mad at the previous assumed identity not working for them, they are welcome to do so, but I don't think it will work. I certainly hope they will honestly post their experiences so that we will have more data. And maybe they will prove that my model is wrong. Get a Republican congress member to echo the Indian case, and railroad the MBs, similar to the way MB lobby got the Democrats to echo the MB case and railroad Hindu India. Then teach us how you did it.

Can we build a Hindu identity in America? Yes, but like any worthwhile endeavor, it will be a long and arduous process, instant gratification guaranteed to be not there at all.

Again, the only one I see on the horizon who gets any of this is Modi. Look to the Howdy Modi rally as a beginning of the process of stirring of a Hindu identity in US. Realize that this is also motivating the MB lobby. They understand that Hindu India alone has the unique potential to put an end to Islam as a political power that we have known throughout history. Without an all-consuming war. But it is potential only. Enough to scare them into more intense activity, enough to give us hope.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 24 Oct 2019 21:01

wow, great posts by UB ji and KLNM ji. Is it possible to revive the "Good posts" or start one afresh?

all good posts at one place so that we don't miss these in the noise.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KLNMurthy » 24 Oct 2019 21:32

A_Gupta wrote:National emergency, too, in this regard, is a power granted by Congress to President by legislation, and can be rescinded by it. It is not a Constitutional power of the President.

I can now understand some of the antipathy towards immigrants - they do not bother to understand the laws or the history of their new country.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa ... encies_Act
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... ted_States

OTOH I would argue that "not understanding the laws & history of America" is a compulsory prerequisite for being a shuddh asli-ghee Amriki.

Also not knowing English.

So immigrants should be all good with natives on those scores.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Najunamar » 24 Oct 2019 22:16

Also, only desis in Khanland seem obsessed with knowing how long you have lived in Yumrika - seldom see such queries from whites. Some symptom of a colonized mindset...although I have to admit I have my insecurities (am always glad to note Desh is prospering not just out of altruism/bhakthi but as a forever lifeboat should things go south fast in the adopted land). I think some of these insecurities are what manifest in this "competitive" line of actions. Apologies for the piskoanalysis (lurk mode on), would love to hear views on how this impacts Indo US relations both positively and negatively.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby vishvak » 24 Oct 2019 22:24

Like labor, gun industry, petrochemical industry, Jewish lobby, farmer lobby, abortion (pro- and anti-) lobby, evanjehadi lobby, LGBTQ lobby, Muslim Brotherhood lobby, etc.

After totally ignoring hindu rights in some particular discussion (where a particular participant aarti tikkoo was not allowed to speak even to begin with) at least some 'introspection' is must no? Imagine you are living with MB guys around who can't enslave others in India, or Europe and even coming far in US!

The most hassle free lobbyies that Indians can flow with:
1) Jewish : simply to cut crap of exclusivists and avoid getting sucked into giant exclusive shytholes

2) gun lobby : to avoid fear and mobbed in shytload as above

3) tech : obvious choice for international participation in way of tech lobby

4) may be railroad lobby if there is one : to cut crap others throw in the way

Just my 2 cents after going by what happened to aarti tikkoo activist.
Last edited by vishvak on 24 Oct 2019 22:31, edited 1 time in total.

KLNMurthy
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KLNMurthy » 24 Oct 2019 22:26

A_Gupta wrote:This is disingenuous to say the least, unworthy of a BRFer: “note that the KKK were DEMOCRATS to begin with“. Once the Democrats in the early sixties moved in favor of civil rights, citizenship for people of all nations, not just for whites, the KKK turned Republican.

The basis for there to be an Indian-American audience for Howdy Modi was laid by the Hart-Celler Act of 1965 that was done by the Democrats.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigra ... ct_of_1965
Before that, people of Indian origin could not become naturalized citizens of the US.

The legislation that the Democrats passed empowering “people of color” not only lost the South to the Democrats for a generation, as predicted by Lyndon B Johnson, it has caused a complete realignment with Democrats and Republicans switching their roles relative to pre-1960 on issues of racial equality.


Yeah, "KKK" and slaveholders were (gasp) Democrats, so everything you think about politics is 100% wrong, hahaha, is a tired old BS talking point among the lowest of the low dregs, and UB alone can say why he unnecessarily stooped so low in an otherwise mostly thoughtful and thought-provoking post.

I'd put it as follows:

1. We can't understand US without understanding Trump and that can't be done while in the grip of visceral hatred of the man. Most of the media outlets today thrive on promoting exactly the "krodham" that Lord Krishna warned us about. UB's methodical (meaning offering tangible handles for refutation, not just confirmation of biases) laying-out of the case for Trump is a needed contribution in the opposite direction.

2. To UB's points I would add my own re-assessment of the recent Turkey decision by Trump: the outcome is actually shaping up close to where we (on BRF), namely a backing-away from destructive conflict with Russia, end to the regime-change project in Syria, about 80% respect for Syria's sovereignty and territorial integrity (subject to the limits of how much Syria itself can protect those), and apparently limited damage to the Kurds. Revival of ISIS is a question mark, but a re-empowered Damascus and later Baghdad & Mosul could hopefully deal with them.

Maybe the lesson is that just by acting like a Mafia Don, you can get some kind of rational modus vivendi, without the veneer of respectable Foreign Policy Theory & "praxis".

3. My problem with Trump (were I to overlook his lowliness of publicly acting like his daughter is his latest trophy wife or mistress) is the same problem I have with Republicans: their indifference or hostility to concerns about social injustice and inequality, pollution control, and evanjehadism to list a few.

But when it comes to India, I think Trump would be easier for Modi to deal with in a transactional way, in the near term, since, he understands his type very well. Compared to Democrats, who do seem to have gone into the pocket of Muslim Brotherhood. As an academic UB surely knows what he is talking about, when he says University campuses (as bellwethers of society) have gone i to crazy-land in their quest for morality, about which they seem to be clueless and unrooted. And Democrats seem to have given up their sense of vivekam in tandem with the campus.

Republicans OTOH have remained steadfast in the noble Ayn Randian goal of screwing the poor and powerless, so there is no room for disappointment or realignment there.

Again when it comes to India, we should expect nothing but only hostility overall (check WSJ articles on Modi) because Modi gets in the way of their goal of deracination of India and turning it into a plantation of happy, psalm-singing ex-yindoos laboring for the glory of the White Fat Cat. Also, the Republican love of pollution and reckless raping of the planet is not good news for India: the effects are going to hit India early, hard and often.

So, if you are looking for short-term ease of interacting for India, Trump is better for India, but for long-term interests, India should be guiding America in the direction of big Democratic party goals (that are out there somewhere amid the craziness) like social equality, worship of all nature & life etc.

Stop thinking in terms of what US can do to help or hurt India, that's the tail wagging the dog. It is Hindu India that should be driving the US in a sensible direction.

BRF needs to starting doing more than just "raksha."Otherwise, what's the point of all this? What's the end goal? India can't be a peninsula of righteousness in a world gone wrong. We already know from history that's unsustainable.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby nachiket » 24 Oct 2019 22:30

mappunni wrote:Come to the city where I live and you will understand. The school district serves Indian food and Telugu is the second most spoken language at home after English and apparently next year onwards kids will be able to learn Telugu instead of Spanish as a Foreign language.

Hint: This is happening in the fastest growing city in the North Dallas area, and in fact the entire country!

So what? I can understand goras having trouble with this. But why do Indians have trouble with more of their own kind coming there hain jee? Do we hate ourselves so much?

Spanish is taught as a second language in many places in the US because there are so many latin american immigrants there and you might be better off knowing their language. We have no problem learning their language but we have a problem if that is replaced with one of our own? Only remarkable levels of mental colonization in us can trigger such a response.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ShyamSP » 24 Oct 2019 23:22

mappunni wrote:
nachiket wrote:Ah, Indian Americans complaining about there being too many Indians in the US. Quintessentially Indian thing to do. You rarely see this self-destructive behavior among other ethnic groups. I have always wondered why.


Come to the city where I live and you will understand. The school district serves Indian food and Telugu is the second most spoken language at home after English and apparently next year onwards kids will be able to learn Telugu instead of Spanish as a Foreign language.

Hint: This is happening in the fastest growing city in the North Dallas area, and in fact the entire country!


If they did that it is great achievement of Telugus of Texas. When some tried to do for Telugu, Hindi, and Sanskrit in a few districts nearby it was big hassle to do due to laws and bureaucratic hurdles for teachers (qualified esp), certifications/standards for the course, etc.

This is where Indian Government and Universities can help in sponsoring but India is so much colonized and screwed up in terms of getting rid of English and educating in its own Native languages what they can do here.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 24 Oct 2019 23:40

nachiket wrote:
mappunni wrote:The school district serves Indian food and Telugu is the second most spoken language ...

But why do Indians have trouble with more of their own kind coming there hain jee? Do we hate ourselves so much?
...
Spanish is taught as a second language


Saar, my guess is that Telugu is the problem. The thinking goes like this -

/səˈliləkwē/ wrote: Why Telugu, why not Indian? Oh, wait. There is no Indian. Then it has to be Hindi and the oldest language Tamizh. Onlee


Probably this should go into AP, TN, KL thread where all sub-identities are on display in their full glory. :twisted: :mrgreen:

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 25 Oct 2019 00:51

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics

The term identity politics has been applied and misapplied retroactively to varying movements that long predate its coinage. Historian Arthur Schlesinger Jr. discussed identity politics extensively in his 1991 book The Disuniting of America. Schlesinger, a strong supporter of liberal conceptions of civil rights, argues that a liberal democracy requires a common basis for culture and society to function. Rather than seeing civil society as already fractured along lines of power and powerlessness (according to race, ethnicity, sexuality, etc), Schlesinger suggests that basing politics on group marginalization is itself what fractures the civil polity, and that identity politics therefore works against creating real opportunities for ending marginalization.


KLNM ji,

Do we Indian-Americans and my subgroup Hindu-Americans have to ourselves whether we want to play this game?

That is the USP of the "elite left liberals" the prime examples being The Squad. Rep. AOC and POTUS have at least one commonality - both are anti-status quo.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Primus » 25 Oct 2019 00:52

nachiket wrote:
mappunni wrote:Come to the city where I live and you will understand. The school district serves Indian food and Telugu is the second most spoken language at home after English and apparently next year onwards kids will be able to learn Telugu instead of Spanish as a Foreign language.

Hint: This is happening in the fastest growing city in the North Dallas area, and in fact the entire country!

So what? I can understand goras having trouble with this. But why do Indians have trouble with more of their own kind coming there hain jee? Do we hate ourselves so much?

Spanish is taught as a second language in many places in the US because there are so many latin american immigrants there and you might be better off knowing their language. We have no problem learning their language but we have a problem if that is replaced with one of our own? Only remarkable levels of mental colonization in us can trigger such a response.


I am not sure if the problem Mappunni ji has may stem from the fact that it is Telugu people dominating an erstwhile Hispanic second tier status in Texan society. As the old joke goes, where there are four Indians there are five associations - one for each and the fifth for them all.

There is another aspect that is being overlooked here. The rapid 'Americanization' of our second generation. In my own family/friends, the majority of the next gen has married white Americans (or Europeans/Chinese), i.e. have non-Hindu spouses. Most of these couples are raising their kids as 'neutral' for now, but we know how that ends up. So I don't know where we are headed in terms of 'love for India' and a Hindu-American society. It is therefore left up to us, those still around after all these years, to educate our own people. Most important IMHO is to instill a sense of pride in our origins and our ethos. I have never lost an opportunity to proclaim my being a Hindu in any gathering, be it an academic dinner or a parent-teacher meet. Our kids learn by example and if they see their parents being embarrassed of their roots, it is a very quick slide down that slippery slope.

We need to learn from the Jews, who wear their religion with pride and never let the world forget what was done to them. Of course it helps that they look white and have tons of money and have set their own people up positions of vital importance. But other than the first the rest did not happen overnight. My partner is orthodox and both his parents were in the holocaust, father drove a taxicab in NYC to make ends meet. So they too have paid their dues but were smart enough to invest in the future wisely.

Our biggest problem is being ashamed/afraid of being Hindu, that is what makes us want to distance ourselves from our own.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KLNMurthy » 25 Oct 2019 01:31

vishvak wrote:
Like labor, gun industry, petrochemical industry, Jewish lobby, farmer lobby, abortion (pro- and anti-) lobby, evanjehadi lobby, LGBTQ lobby, Muslim Brotherhood lobby, etc.

After totally ignoring hindu rights in some particular discussion (where a particular participant aarti tikkoo was not allowed to speak even to begin with) at least some 'introspection' is must no? Imagine you are living with MB guys around who can't enslave others in India, or Europe and even coming far in US!

The most hassle free lobbyies that Indians can flow with:
1) Jewish : simply to cut crap of exclusivists and avoid getting sucked into giant exclusive shytholes

2) gun lobby : to avoid fear and mobbed in shytload as above

3) tech : obvious choice for international participation in way of tech lobby

4) may be railroad lobby if there is one : to cut crap others throw in the way

Just my 2 cents after going by what happened to aarti tikkoo activist.

Would love to hear your experiences and (hopefully) tales of success after flowing with any of these lobbies.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 25 Oct 2019 01:59

Primus wrote:I am not sure if the problem Mappunni ji has may stem from the fact that it is Telugu people dominating an erstwhile Hispanic second tier status in Texan society.


It may be that I misjudged mappunni ji's post. If so, I apologize to the poster.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby NRao » 25 Oct 2019 05:50

Of tangential relevance:

White House urges federal agencies to cancel Washington Post and New York Times subscriptions

White House press secretary Stephanie Grisham said in a statement Thursday that "not renewing subscriptions across all federal agencies will be a significant cost saving for taxpayers -- hundreds of thousands of dollars."


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