India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

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UlanBatori
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 28 Oct 2019 17:51

Prem wrote:https://twitter.com/RepRoKhanna/status/ ... 22720?s=20
#Diwali is all about reflecting on our lives, learning from our mistakes, and growing in the coming year. It’s also about good sweets, new clothes, and time with family and friends. Forgiveness, reflection, + cooperation are essential year round, especially in a moment like this.


Clearly US-educated. The above is his understanding from the Alabama textbook on Hinduism:

My name is Dilip and I am from Dallas. I am a Hindu. Hindus celebrate Holi and Diwali and eat lots of sweets and let off fireworks and throw colored water on each other.
That's before Section 2, which is about Dalits being allowed only in one job: cleaning toilets. Oh wait! Hindus don't HAVE toilets so I am confused.

The einsten bin Californi has not even learned that Diwali is "Deepavali". Festival of lights. Depending on whether u r Naarth or South, the lamps were (a) equivalent sentiments of the Yellow Ribbons used in the US during the Iran Hostage Crisis or the "keep a lamp in the window for me" of soldiers off to war. Or it is the lamp-lighting to celebrate the pest-e-sha'eed of the terrorist Rakshasa.

So this "Diwali" is special. It is the lamplighting to celebrate the exit of the Art370 Asura.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Primus » 28 Oct 2019 17:54

BPSingh wrote:I certainly hit a nerve I see. Thanks for the responses and "education" from everyone. It was actually not nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be. You guys must be getting soft :)

I won't address all the wide ranging assumptions made about my upbringing or lack of knowledge about the Indian and Hindi culture etc. They are what they are and all of you are entitled to your opinions.I have been coming to this forum for years now but usually sticking to military technology type discussions and of course Vivek's military scenarios. Only recently did I wander into this topic. The points about Hinduphobia in US are fair and I point that to general ignorance most people have about things foreign to them. Americans are on average ignorant of the wider world around them. They have been spoiled by the position of their country in world affairs and most of them don't pay attention beyond their day to day lives. Growing up in India, I saw the same thing. All kinds of misconceptions about Christians, Muslims or Sikhs or even more granular, about people from different castes or states. Saw it all day from different parts of the society and I would argue that they were rarely justified and most often stem from ignorance. Just like the Hinduphobia in US!

The only thing I will challenge is the centrality of religion in all these arguments. In my short time on this planet, I have seen very little good come from religion, at least at the level of a community or a nation. Whether that is some Mullah fanning the flames for Jihad or a Pastor calling for Crusades or a Swami calling for Rath Yatras etc., it is often used to fan flames of division or hatred towards others. That's why I am surprised to find it so central to the discussion on this forum. Broad general statements about millions or people just because they belong to some faith or a geography. I thought we were past that. Now, religion has helped people at the personal level and having faith can be a deeply meaningful thing. That has an important place in the world. I equate that to more of a spiritual belief, similar to Sanatan Dharm etc. However, when that gets extrapolated into expectations of behavior for the entire community or state, I see a strong problem with that. When it comes down to "all muslims are jihadis and therefore should be mistrusted" or "all hindus are devil worshippers and therefore should be kicked out of US", that is when I rather just stay away from religion. I know plenty of practicing muslims and christians who don't take the Koran or the Bible literally because they realize that a lot of the stuff in there is bat shit crazy! To me, religion is a very private thing and I don't agree when someone states that as a Hindu, I need to "fit in and behave a certain way."
Those are my two cents. I will go back to lurker mode.

Happy Diwali everyone!


Yes, Happy Diwali to you as well BP Singh Ji.

It is unfortunate that you claim to have 'seen it all - growing up in India' yet you stated in one of your first posts here that you came to the US as a teenager. Hardly enough experience in life to make that claim then.

I am assuming you went to school in India in the 80s or later. I am probably a generation older than you and even I never knew anything about the true history of India as it was all white-washed by the post-independence historians, particularly those that came to power with the Gandhi clan. It took me a very long time to understand what was done to the Hindus of India over a millennium. And it took an equally long time to even begin to scrape the surface of what Advaitism and Sanatan Dharma really is.

As I suggested to you in my first response, I highly recommend you do some serious study yourself, if you are really interested in learning the truth. Of course you are free to continue in your ignorance and spew false equivalence on this board but we are so used to that from the MSM everywhere that it won't change any of us. In all honesty, I doubt any of us here can say anything to change your perspective either, from my experience with others like you it is usually too late by the time you start saying the things you are. However, there is always hope. Because you see, I too was like you until my mid-30s. Always felt Hindus were the villains in our history, never went to temples or offered puja, for I was 'an agnostic' (was damn proud of that word too), ridiculed our own itihaas and our own holy scriptures - how can a monkey fly with a mountain? Looked down in disdain upon anybody who did not speak good English, especially the fat bania or the choti-dhaari brahmin types.

It took a major event to change my life, I suddenly became very curious about discovering our real past and that blew me away.

So maybe you too can open your eyes if you really want to. Or you could continue as you are, for
Indian-Americans care a lot more about their everyday lives than the US-India relationship, because frankly, it has little impact on their lives. They have issues like every other American, putting food on the table, looking after their families, enjoying life and meeting their goals and ambitions. It is just strange for me to read these posts because I find them so detached from the reality of most Indian-Americans.


The choice is yours. However, please do not come here and tell us how we should think and behave, stay in lurker mode, for we would rather conserve our energies for better discussions.

Regards.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 29 Oct 2019 00:27

I am with BPSinghji. Everything I ever learned or feel that I need to know, I learned by Age 3.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby vimal » 29 Oct 2019 00:58

I cannot help but notice the stark differences between Tulsi’s Diwali message vs Ro Khan’s Diwali message. Tulsi mentioned the homecoming of Shri Ramchandra, mentioned Shri Krishna and her deep faith in Hinduism. She is not even an Indian and seems to have deep grounding in Santan dharm. Ro comes off as ABCD jhollachap.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby shyamd » 29 Oct 2019 01:07

Philip wrote:We shouldn't aim to claim Pak's rent- boy status in the sub- continent! By the way, is the US policy in Afg. helpful to us when it covertly engages with the Taliban? It has for decades deliberately kept us out of the Afg. picture, only looking after its own interests.I am sceptical in the extreme studying the history of US betrayals of its so- called allies over the last century. I will be proven right, just wait and watch.

India and US can't agree on everything but yes this peace deal will suddenly rise from the ashes soon - wait and see. Trump only called it off because of timing with 9/11. Trump is trying to do what he can to meet some of GOI requests - which is annoying TSPA. Trump will do what is in his political interests for his election and so will India.

TSPA is trying to move resources to focus on J&K whilst some sort of ceasefire is agreed - What GOI has been prep'ing for 6+ years..

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby dsreedhar » 29 Oct 2019 03:18

Thanks Primus ji for taking time to educate BPSingh. Several of our folks are in BPsingh shoes. Its frustrating in the prevailing situation and takes time, but it is essential to guide and give them right pointers to ponder on, instead of calling names. It is not totally their fault but the whole environment.
Myself coming from commie/naxal belt of Telangana, growing up was fed only one side of the story which on the surface appears true and is to an extent. That did not make me anti-hindu but blinded in looking the bigger picture of whats going on and the serious implications of continuing it long term. The situation of India and hindus is complex and serious.
It is not just about standing for the right but prevent devastating consequences in future. Only those who dig a couple of layers deep and look further out will understand.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Najunamar » 29 Oct 2019 22:48

UlanBatori wrote:I am with BPSinghji. Everything I ever learned or feel that I need to know, I learned by Age 3.


:rotfl: Classic Mongolian sarcasmji! Need to create standard FAQ for these waves of same queries along similar lines. We can then use either proactively or whenever a new person raises the same (yawn!) line of questions. After all, we need to use technology to fight ignorance right?!

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Haresh » 29 Oct 2019 23:06

Primus wrote:Thus, the fault really lies with us Indians/Hindus. We have dropped the ball in a big way. It is a slow, painstaking process, must be gradually inculcated into the minds of our young, at an age when they really cannot see for themselves. Gradually they begin to absorb. The key is to be proud of your own people and that, IMHO is our single biggest failing - we are so sheepish and defensive about ourselves.


I totally agree with this. I write this as someone who is not religious in a religious way, more cultural. I will not make any claim of being religious.
In fact many on this board if they met me in person would regard me as a totally deracinated coconut.

Fact is us Indians are too dammed nice, we are sheepish and defensive.

I will not hesitate to bark back at a xtian nutcase when asked about my beliefs, my response is aggressive "why are you so concerned about my beliefs, what's it to you?"
"do you get your so called information/facts from Indiana Jones and the temple of doom?"
"let's talk about sexual abuse in churches and how it is covered up"
"Let's discuss the Doctrine of Discovery and mass murder of non christians"

Etc, etc

There is no point being polite, tell the 8astards straight and be aggressive. I used to know one nut case who would e mail me links of murders rapes etc in India, I started emailing him back same sorts of stories back about church abuse.

I have just read through the link: https://medium.com/@induv/colonizerboar ... 3584032dee

We are too nice. All it would have taken is one Indian, an aggressive one, who knew his historical facts, not just with regards to India but also with regards to xtianity/the west.

From the article:
"Congressman Lieu asks Bencosme, of Amnesty International, “And, would you say, the current government has intentions of essentially having India be one religion?” (Part II: 1:45:00). The Government of India has neither declared nor demonstrated an intention for every Indian to be Hindu"

Is that any different to wanting to make the entire world christian?
Just imagine if an Indian had said that and stated where are your christian beliefs with regards to "the one true god etc"

"Brad Sherman referred to the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits, who are the indigenous population to the region, at the hands of Kashmiri jihadists, as “when the Pandits left the region”. Kashmiri Pandits are living as refugees in India and throughout the world. On what progressive planet is an ethnic cleansing referred to as “they left”? This is a violent and dangerous erasure."

This would have been a prime cause for showing them to be the hypocrites they are. Remember the out cry when Ilhan Omar said words to the effect "Some people did something on 9/11"

I live in London and was born in England as were my children. I take my son (my daughter is not really interested) to temples, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist to remind him of his heritage and to be proud of it. He doesn't have to be religious but he has to be proud of his Indian heritage.

We have to be more aggressive and assertive.
Politeness is regarded as weakness and bullies despise the weak.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 29 Oct 2019 23:21

Moi? Sarcasm? :((
But let me put it in simple terms. Ignorance is not an excuse. Esp. when information and knowledge are all around you, and free. Indians born after say 1990 were born into a Free India that was also racing up in the global pecking order. A massive superpower of humanity. No excuse to sit around claiming that one is so innocent and ignorant and meek. As they say:
Ignorance can be fixed.

Fix it, time is a-wasting. U won't live forever. When you get Up there or Down there, don't be having to say:
I DIDN'T KNOW!!!

U may be sent to the Bugger-e-Hind Madarssa at Muridke in ur next incarnation. :eek:

If you wait for the promise of
The Meek Shall Inherit The Earth

it is only after all the freshwater, oil, nutrients, minerals and esp. uranium have been stolen.

To put it in the forum context, this forum IIRC was set up among other things for Indian defence ppl to chit-chat. Try telling them about how it's someone else's fault that one is not well-informed and thoughtful. In their daily existence, the penalty for not knowing, say, where the Yellow Sea is, is death or dismemberment or death after horrible torture. Here the worst is that one gets one's tender feelings bruised. No problem, I get beaten up every day. :((
Last edited by UlanBatori on 30 Oct 2019 03:00, edited 1 time in total.

Haresh
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Haresh » 30 Oct 2019 02:09

A good source of ammunition against these self rightous evangelical hypocrites.

Plenty of stories here.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressi ... ting-teen/?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby BPSingh » 30 Oct 2019 06:20

Troll post deleted.

Poster warned.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Oct 2019 06:43

Hate to burst a rising balloon, but the call to kill Sikhs came from those OPPOSED to the Saffronization. IOW, it was the Secular Defenders of Socialism who did that. But history is such a waste of time to learn in school....

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby sudarshan » 30 Oct 2019 07:02

BPSingh wrote:Is that clear enough for you?


Perfectly :). Thank you so much, your stance was clear enough from the beginning, but it's good to have it in the open. Just something to think about (whenever you get around to it) - army people are the ones who see the harsh realities of the world. If so many army people hold a particular stance, that should tell you something about practicalities right there. I see you're gung-ho for another round of name-calling, but please do it in some other thread, all this is OT here. Peace :).

UB ji, let's not continue the OT discussion. Any sane thinking person can now see where our friend is coming from, that's good enough. The things our friend said are the things that India is waking up from, and each passing day sees more and more people in India waking up from that nightmare. Our friend is anyway out of India, what goes anybody's father onlee.

As and when all of the above gets discredited even in the MSM in India (let's hope for the day), such nonsense will die a natural death.

Humble request to all: please don't respond to the bigotry above and get banned. That's how they do it, bait, switch, and ban.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 30 Oct 2019 09:33

BP yes jee, Gujurat? Really?

It is a such a give away for a paki. I am a little (lot!!) surprised that BRF mods are giving you more leeway than they gave to folks like RamaY who were/are Indic to the core.

I will leave it to the chankiyanness of our mods. If I say more, I will get the boot.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rony » 30 Oct 2019 10:29

BPSingh wrote: Given the audience here, I was trying to be polite but since you point it out, let me make it more explicit. Calls for Rath Yatras equals calls for saffronization, calls for bringing down Babri Masjid, calls for killing thousands on Sikhs in 1984, calls for killings thousands of muslims in Gujurat, and even today calls for killing people for eating Beef!
That is what I mean by Rath Yatras. Is that clear enough for you? .


Blaming BJP/RSS for 1984 Sikh riots is a Khalistani thing and a regular propaganda trope among their ilk. Dont know if you learnt it from them but just saying.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby bhavani » 30 Oct 2019 11:12

Primus wrote:
Prem wrote:
https://twitter.com/RepRoKhanna/status/ ... 22720?s=20
#Diwali is all about reflecting on our lives, learning from our mistakes, and growing in the coming year. It’s also about good sweets, new clothes, and time with family and friends. Forgiveness, reflection, + cooperation are essential year round, especially in a moment like this.


Tulsi will never make it :(

America is not ready for a woman POTUS, and certainly not a Hindu at that.


Tulsi will never make it neither will the extreme left liberal ones like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth warrens.

The democrats have a tendency to destroy each other. 99% Joe Biden who is the establishment candidate will contest against Trump and lose.

Liberals act all uber intelligent and lecture othert,but they tend to lose elections. Democrats are busy running to the edge of the leftist rainbow. They will tear down each other on some minor issue that one candidate is not pansexual or not adequately gender fluid.

Republicans tend to stick together, look at all the church folks voting for Trump, Trump probably has never seen the inside of a church and will go up in flames if he touched a bible. But the evangelicals will adjust and vote for him

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby bhavani » 30 Oct 2019 11:25

hgupta wrote:
mappunni wrote:
Come to the city where I live and you will understand. The school district serves Indian food and Telugu is the second most spoken language at home after English and apparently next year onwards kids will be able to learn Telugu instead of Spanish as a Foreign language.

Hint: This is happening in the fastest growing city in the North Dallas area, and in fact the entire country!


Why is that a bad thing?


mr Mappunni, If kids learn telugu, will hell fall on our heads or if they eat Indian food will their tongues catch fire. i am from rural east part of Andhra.

I dont understand or get you point. IN what way is spanish greater than Telugu or any language greater than any other one.

Most Telugu folks i met are so enamoured with some pristine idea of US. DO they think they will sorrounded by tall blond females only in US.

Indians in general in US tend to have deep inferiority complex, Indian managers will tend to push/torment their Indian member but will treat their Gora team members in a different manner.

Telugu People have this inferiority complex in a very deep manner and a level higher than other folks.. They feel as if they own US or have some deep bonding with US. They will generally avoid other telugu people, except their friends.

The funny thing is every Telugu guy feels that other telugu folks are spoiling US. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Oct 2019 13:13

KLNMurthy wrote:Yeah, "KKK" and slaveholders were (gasp) Democrats, so everything you think about politics is 100% wrong, hahaha, is a tired old BS talking point among the lowest of the low dregs, and UB alone can say why he unnecessarily stooped so low in an otherwise mostly thoughtful and thought-provoking post.

I'd put it as follows:

1. We can't understand US without understanding Trump and that can't be done while in the grip of visceral hatred of the man. Most of the media outlets today thrive on promoting exactly the "krodham" that Lord Krishna warned us about. UB's methodical (meaning offering tangible handles for refutation, not just confirmation of biases) laying-out of the case for Trump is a needed contribution in the opposite direction.


1. You can't understand the US without understanding their racial and economic divides.
2. Trump is a symptom of and not the direct cause of these divides.
3. "Yeah, "KKK" and slaveholders were (gasp) Democrats, so everything you think about politics is 100% wrong" -- no, it is as I said, it is a disingenuous statement. I could have justifiably called it an ignorant statement as well.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby pankajs » 30 Oct 2019 14:07

BPSingh wrote:I certainly hit a nerve I see. Thanks for the responses and "education" from everyone. It was actually not nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be. You guys must be getting soft :) {I can certainly read that in your post the way you ran away from very pertinent questions raised about your understanding. :) }

I won't address all the wide ranging assumptions made about my upbringing or lack of knowledge about the Indian and Hindi culture etc. They are what they are and all of you are entitled to your opinions.I have been coming to this forum for years now but usually sticking to military technology type discussions and of course Vivek's military scenarios. Only recently did I wander into this topic. The points about Hinduphobia in US are fair and I point that to general ignorance most people have about things foreign to them. Americans are on average ignorant of the wider world around them. They have been spoiled by the position of their country in world affairs and most of them don't pay attention beyond their day to day lives. Growing up in India, I saw the same thing. All kinds of misconceptions about Christians, Muslims or Sikhs or even more granular, about people from different castes or states. Saw it all day from different parts of the society and I would argue that they were rarely justified and most often stem from ignorance. Just like the Hinduphobia in US! {I can also see you won't be addressing the many questions raised by you own brain farts. Understandable. :) }

The only thing I will challenge is the centrality of religion in all these arguments. In my short time on this planet, I have seen very little good come from religion, at least at the level of a community or a nation. Whether that is some Mullah fanning the flames for Jihad or a Pastor calling for Crusades or a Swami calling for Rath Yatras etc., it is often used to fan flames of division or hatred towards others. That's why I am surprised to find it so central to the discussion on this forum. Broad general statements about millions or people just because they belong to some faith or a geography. I thought we were past that. Now, religion has helped people at the personal level and having faith can be a deeply meaningful thing. That has an important place in the world. I equate that to more of a spiritual belief, similar to Sanatan Dharm etc. However, when that gets extrapolated into expectations of behavior for the entire community or state, I see a strong problem with that. When it comes down to "all muslims are jihadis and therefore should be mistrusted" or "all hindus are devil worshippers and therefore should be kicked out of US", that is when I rather just stay away from religion. I know plenty of practicing muslims and christians who don't take the Koran or the Bible literally because they realize that a lot of the stuff in there is bat shit crazy! To me, religion is a very private thing and I don't agree when someone states that as a Hindu, I need to "fit in and behave a certain way."
Those are my two cents. I will go back to lurker mode.

Happy Diwali everyone!

Ah .. the genius of comparing Rath yatra to Jihad and Crusades rather than to celebrations like St. Patrick's Day parade, etc for Christians, Tazia processions on Muharram taken out by Muslims or Sikh Day Parade taken out by Sikhs. Why does it not surprise me? 8) The anti-Hindu slat was evident for your first post. The least you could have done is made the right comparisons. That way it wouldn't be so easy to call you out but I guess when Hindu hate is overflowing one tends to loose all sense of judgement/balance. Theek hai.

BTW, while you were protesting "Broad general statements about millions" irony just died seeing you do the same to the Hindus with the "Rath Yatras" broad generalization. But then when your Hindu hate is overflowing one tends to loose all sense.

Please ...pleez .. pleez .. pleez .. don't go back to lurker mode ... it is so much fun reading your brain farts! :rotfl:
Last edited by pankajs on 30 Oct 2019 15:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Oct 2019 20:41

KLNMurthy wrote:2. To UB's points I would add my own re-assessment of the recent Turkey decision by Trump: the outcome is actually shaping up close to where we (on BRF), namely a backing-away from destructive conflict with Russia, end to the regime-change project in Syria, about 80% respect for Syria's sovereignty and territorial integrity (subject to the limits of how much Syria itself can protect those), and apparently limited damage to the Kurds. Revival of ISIS is a question mark, but a re-empowered Damascus and later Baghdad & Mosul could hopefully deal with them.

Maybe the lesson is that just by acting like a Mafia Don, you can get some kind of rational modus vivendi, without the veneer of respectable Foreign Policy Theory & "praxis".


Close to where we on BRF want it?
:eek:

Twitter exchange below.

https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status ... 32833?s=20
Tulsi Gabbard @TulsiGabbard · 2h
Erdogan has been helping ISIS/AQ for years. He has denied this but is now openly using militias of "former" ISIS/AQ terrorists, exposing him for what he really is: a radical Islamist megalomaniac who wants to establish a caliphate with himself as the Caliph — the supreme ruler.

https://twitter.com/JamesLinkin/status/ ... 30016?s=20
James Linkin @JamesLinkin
Is she wrong, @stephenkinzer?

https://twitter.com/stephenkinzer/statu ... 71425?s=20
Stephen Kinzer
@stephenkinzer
In 2016 I saw how Turkey's border with Syria had become part of the "jihadi highway"--foreign fighters would arrive in #Istanbul and be brought into #Syria. The wounded were treated at clinics inside Turkey. Reporters who filmed Turkish arms convoys entering Syria were arrested.

----

Tulsi Gabbard you know.

We can also happily agree that Tulsi Gabbard has become deranged by Hillary Clinton's comments - another deep state conspiracy -- and is no longer thinking clearly.

Stephen Kinzer is : Author & journalist. Former NY Times foreign correspondent. Boston Globe columnist. Senior Fellow @WatsonInstitute for Intl. and Public Affairs @Brownuniversity

I suppose for the sake of harmony on BRF we can dismiss him as part of the anti-Trump deep state. Thus we can happily say, yes, this is what we on BRF wanted.

PS: I'm all for peace and harmony on BRF, who cares what is happening in the so-called real world?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Oct 2019 21:02

Exactly what was wrong with TG's assessment of Turkey-ISIS-US identity (I mean identity as in math) please?
Could someone pls go revisit the Levant Crisish thread (I know it is 300 pages..)

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Primus » 31 Oct 2019 02:59

Something that I was meaning to post earlier but forgot. Here is Francois Gautier's post on his page about WaPo and the double standards we are all aware of. I have enormous respect for Gautier and have met him in person. Wish there were more people like him.

https://www.facebook.com/19650748711481 ... e=scwspnss

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Nikhil T » 31 Oct 2019 03:40

In other news .... US State Deptt expressed support for "India's sovereignty" on Twitter while commenting on US Ambassador's recent visit to Tawang. I don't ever recall US weighing in on Arunachal Pradesh like this, but it is sure to invite Chinese ire.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... O7WNJ.html

US State Deptt on Twitter wrote:.
@USAmbIndia's #Tawang visit highlights resolute U.S. support for Indian sovereignty and commitment to local partnerships. U.S. funding supports joint public health and social sciences work in #Arunachal by
@USouthFlorida
and Rajiv Gandhi University. AGW

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Karan M » 31 Oct 2019 06:27

Guys, cleaned up the thread. Dont respond to obvious trolling meant to provoke, instead alert the admins. Dont want thread locked due to a flame war from posters 15 posts old and taking down oldies with them.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KLNMurthy » 01 Nov 2019 03:50

Mods: I'm afraid this this is OT for this thread, would you please move it to the right thread?

A_Gupta wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:2. To UB's points I would add my own re-assessment of the recent Turkey decision by Trump: the outcome is actually shaping up close to where we (on BRF), namely a backing-away from destructive conflict with Russia, end to the regime-change project in Syria, about 80% respect for Syria's sovereignty and territorial integrity (subject to the limits of how much Syria itself can protect those), and apparently limited damage to the Kurds. Revival of ISIS is a question mark, but a re-empowered Damascus and later Baghdad & Mosul could hopefully deal with them.

Maybe the lesson is that just by acting like a Mafia Don, you can get some kind of rational modus vivendi, without the veneer of respectable Foreign Policy Theory & "praxis".


Close to where we on BRF want it?
:eek:


I granted readily that that Trump made a mafia-style decision in allowing Turkey to invade Syria. The larger point (about which I believe BRF is mostly in agreement) is that silly and vicious US policy of "Assad must go" in Syria caused a deep & involved mess with multiple players, and the tangle had to be undone somehow to bring stability and peace, and most importantly to stem the rise of Caliphate, and the flow of Islamist refugees into Europe.

I think it is reasonable to assume that given the level of the mess, there probably never was a way to untangle the mess without hurting someone or other in the near-term. I would have preferred that Turkey be the one to get hurt instead of the Kurds, but realpolitik dictated that the weakest party, the one with the least ability to generate a backlash, takes the hit. So the Kurds and the valiant Peshmarga / YPG paid the price. I grieve for their tragedy, but I suggest that even a systematic non-Trumpy approach to settling Syria would have produced much the same outcome.

Twitter exchange below.

https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status ... 32833?s=20
Tulsi Gabbard @TulsiGabbard · 2h
Erdogan has been helping ISIS/AQ for years. He has denied this but is now openly using militias of "former" ISIS/AQ terrorists, exposing him for what he really is: a radical Islamist megalomaniac who wants to establish a caliphate with himself as the Caliph — the supreme ruler.

https://twitter.com/JamesLinkin/status/ ... 30016?s=20
James Linkin @JamesLinkin
Is she wrong, @stephenkinzer?

https://twitter.com/stephenkinzer/statu ... 71425?s=20
Stephen Kinzer
@stephenkinzer
In 2016 I saw how Turkey's border with Syria had become part of the "jihadi highway"--foreign fighters would arrive in #Istanbul and be brought into #Syria. The wounded were treated at clinics inside Turkey. Reporters who filmed Turkish arms convoys entering Syria were arrested.

----

Tulsi Gabbard you know.

We can also happily agree that Tulsi Gabbard has become deranged by Hillary Clinton's comments - another deep state conspiracy -- and is no longer thinking clearly.


Are you being sarcastic here? I can't tell.

I certainly don't agree with anything of the kind. TG hit back hard because any sniveling weasel-worded response to Hillary wouldn't have got her the attention she is getting, which she sorely needed.

Stephen Kinzer is : Author & journalist. Former NY Times foreign correspondent. Boston Globe columnist. Senior Fellow @WatsonInstitute for Intl. and Public Affairs @Brownuniversity

I suppose for the sake of harmony on BRF we can dismiss him as part of the anti-Trump deep state. Thus we can happily say, yes, this is what we on BRF wanted.

PS: I'm all for peace and harmony on BRF, who cares what is happening in the so-called real world?

I don't know much about Kinzer, I have come across the name.

Looks like you thought that I was implying Turks are righteous and Kurds deserved what they got? If so, nothing could be farther from the truth.

I repeat, disentangling from a dirty messy situation doesn't happen smoothly or painlessly. There is always a price to pay, and usually it's the weakest party that pays it, and the party with maximum troublemaking potential that gets appeased, but hopefully with some checks & balances. That's some of what I see happening with Turkey: Putin "allies" with Erdogan, which could mean anything, including P holds E's hair in his hand for friendly reassurance. 33% of US government gives Turkey carte blanche (with some ambiguity in the form of a later Kindergarten letter from 33% US to Erdogan), and 16.6% of US government passes Armenian Genocide resolution. Old American trick of giving with one hand and taking away some of it with the other hand, to show that the giving could quickly change to something else. Woe unto the fools who don't recognize the trick, and here's hoping Erdogan is one of those fools.

We (on BRF) have known that, for stability,

1. US needed to co-operate with Russia over Syria.

2. Likewise, Russia needed to come to terms with Turkey.

For these two things to happen, Kurds were thrown to the Turks by Trump. There is now an understanding (to my eyes) that the Russians will handle Turkey and US is happy to let them do so.

What is left is for Turkey to come to terms with Syria. We may see Russia pushing for a resolution there, or it may be that Putin would like to keep the pot boiling there indefinitely, while keeping both Syria and Turkey in his grip, keeping things quasi-stable as a hedge against more US tricks & games.

Kurds are nowhere in this picture, their best bet is to take the offer for YPG to join Syrian Army IMO.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 01 Nov 2019 04:12, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KLNMurthy » 01 Nov 2019 03:56

A_Gupta wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:Yeah, "KKK" and slaveholders were (gasp) Democrats, so everything you think about politics is 100% wrong, hahaha, is a tired old BS talking point among the lowest of the low dregs, and UB alone can say why he unnecessarily stooped so low in an otherwise mostly thoughtful and thought-provoking post.

I'd put it as follows:

1. We can't understand US without understanding Trump and that can't be done while in the grip of visceral hatred of the man. Most of the media outlets today thrive on promoting exactly the "krodham" that Lord Krishna warned us about. UB's methodical (meaning offering tangible handles for refutation, not just confirmation of biases) laying-out of the case for Trump is a needed contribution in the opposite direction.


1. You can't understand the US without understanding their racial and economic divides.
2. Trump is a symptom of and not the direct cause of these divides.
3. "Yeah, "KKK" and slaveholders were (gasp) Democrats, so everything you think about politics is 100% wrong" -- no, it is as I said, it is a disingenuous statement. I could have justifiably called it an ignorant statement as well.


I was agreeing with you on 3 above--UB's repetition of a half-witted Republican media trope about KKK being Democrats is hard to understand.

Mostly agree with 1 & 2 as well; point about "understanding Trump" is that he is an emergent phenomenon and studying Trump offers a way to quantify and gauge the underlying factors which include 1. Allowing contempt for Trump to overtake dispassionate understanding of what he represents (most of which is what the generic Republicans represent, minus the crudeness) has been a huge misdirection in the public discourse.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 01 Nov 2019 04:33

Allowing contempt for Trump to overtake dispassionate understanding of what he represents (most of which is what the generic Republicans represent, minus the crudeness) has been a huge misdirection in the public discourse.

Hmm! I have to agree with that. What some see as "non-crudeness" others call "weasel-words". Trump definitely ain't no weasel-worder. He calls it like he sees it that microsecond. Or so it seems until you see what is behind the mask of Trumpiness.
I tell you there is a very sophisticated operator beneath the mask, and those who do not understand that are bound to find out the hard way.

Then again, sooner or later the Deep State may "get" him. One man cannot fight "City Hall" indefinitely. The "v r there 4 da oil" is what alerted me most recently. There MUST be a reason for repeating that garbage: he is laying out in public the Deep State agenda, to cause them at least some ulcers.

The more I read about the "Imbeachment" the more it sounds like a lynchmob. Years after he is "impeached", people will ask "huh?" when someone tries to explain for what crime.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rony » 03 Nov 2019 22:27

US Congress hearing on Kashmir: India falls prey to American political polarisation

As bipartisanship on US foreign policy fractures, New Delhi risks becoming a partisan sticking point.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby pankajs » 03 Nov 2019 22:59

Rony wrote:US Congress hearing on Kashmir: India falls prey to American political polarisation

As bipartisanship on US foreign policy fractures, New Delhi risks becoming a partisan sticking point.

This gives me ideas ... Does Modi mind? What if Modi welcomes this polarization? I will leave it at that for now.

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India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Peregrine » 06 Nov 2019 02:30

In strategic shift, India mulls a trade agreement with US -TNN

HIGHLIGHTS

- For years, India has shot down suggestions of a free trade agreement with the US

- Piyush Goyal, however, said the government was in no rush and would only sign a trade agreement which safeguarded its interests

NEW DELHI: A day after opting out of the China-backed RCEP (Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership), the government said on Tuesday it was exploring an agreement with the US, a move many see as a strategic shift.

"At present, India is exploring trade agreements with the USA and the European Union, where Indian industry and services will be competitive and benefit from access to large developed markets, " commerce and industry minister Piyush Goyal said.

For years, India has shot down suggestions of a free trade agreement with the US and had denied that there was any move when President Trump hinted at it in a tweet a few months ago.

Goyal, however, said the government was in no rush and would only sign a trade agreement which safeguarded its interests.

The statement comes at a time when India and the US are seeking to cover the gap that separates the two sides on high tariffs on several products-ranging from Harley-Davidsons to fruits-and a possible restoration of a part of the preferential duty benefits for Indian exports under the generalised system of preferences (GSP) scheme.

"We should look at an FTA with the US. We have a trade surplus with them," an official source told TOI.

India has always sought access for its software and other professionals in return for opening up its market by lowering import duties and offering other concessions. But given the sensitivities on the visa regime, it is unlikely that the US will ease H-1B or other rules, something that Indian officials are conscious of.

"Every country has its sensitivities, which should be factored in," said a source.

The US is India's largest trade partner with imports and exports adding up to $88 billion in 2018-19. With exports of $52.4 billion, India had a trade surplus of $16.8 billion.

Another source said India was pitching for restoration of the entire GSP benefit, although the Trump administration has so far indicated a partial reinstatement of the concessional duty regime.

In recent years, the US has emerged as a crucial ally for India though differences over trade issues often cast a shadow on the burgeoning partnership. A trade deal with the US, at a time when worries over Chinese imports flooding the local market saw India walk away from RCEP, will underscore the growing convergence with the US as well as suspicions of the giant across the border.

In the past, lobby groups such as the US-India Strategic Partnership Forum have suggested that an FTA could hold the key to resolving disputes.

A forward movement for the same will signal a major change of stand, considering the old wariness about the US stand on intellectual property rights, especially the patents regime for pharmaceuticals, as well as other areas of interest such as investment, where the US wants the same treatment for its companies as Indian entities even before they invest in the country. In bilateral trade agreements, too, the US has usually sought a tighter regime for state-owned enterprises, which limits the space for governments to offer preferential treatment.

Cheers Image

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Nov 2019 21:57


VenkataS
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby VenkataS » 07 Nov 2019 01:06

Indians in USA, those who do not yet have their green cards are looking at a decades long wait in the green card backlog. This affects all Indian applicants in the US including those working for big companies such as Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon etc and not just those working for desi IT companies. Any India born applicant who has applied after 2010 in EB2/Eb3 category will not get their green cards for another 10 years at least. Infact new India born applicants in the EB2 category are looking at a potential wait time of 70 years before they get their green card. Most would die before they get their green cards and many are dying every month leaving their widows/spouses having to grieve and also uproot their families and self deport themselves.

Indian software engineer in Green Card backlog dies suddenly, leaving pregnant wife out of status
https://www.americanbazaaronline.com/20 ... us-439189/

This situation is because of per country limits in employment green cards. Employment based green cards (140,000 annually) constitute a small fraction of the total number of green cards issued every year (about 14%). However they discriminate an applicant based on where they are born. As a result a person not yet born practically anywhere else on earth will have a better chance of getting a green card sooner than an Indian applicant already in the US with a US Masters degree or higher and in the green card backlog for the past 5 years.

A solution here is to eliminate per country limits and make the situation fairer as has been proposed with the S386 "Fairness for high skilled immigrants act of 2019" introduced in the senate. A companion bill in the House HR 1044 passed with a 365 - 65 vote margin. However this bill has been blocked by Democratic Senator Durbin (Illinois) not allowing it to be brought to the Senate floor for a vote through unanimous consent.
However the way that Senator Durbin mocks Indians egged on by Iranian supporters is what is most disturbing.

US senator Richard J Durbin under attack for mocking Indians
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne ... KuLPK.html

Look at the following video where an Iranian immigrant mocks Indians by presenting the Senator a green index card and Senator playing along with him.
https://twitter.com/psyinfeld/status/11 ... 9877427200

Here is a first hand account of what happened at the above townhall by an Indian immigrant:
Senator Durbin’s Non-Constituent Coffee
https://medium.com/@jdjs.121118/senator ... 723b536625

One of the reasons that this bill hasn't progressed on the Senate floor is a lack of empathy for the situation of Indian immigrants even from Indian Americans let alone people like Democrat RO Khanna who goes ahead and joins Pakistani caucus.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rony » 07 Nov 2019 07:29

VenkataS wrote: One of the reasons that this bill hasn't progressed on the Senate floor is a lack of empathy for the situation of Indian immigrants even from Indian Americans let alone people like Democrat RO Khanna who goes ahead and joins Pakistani caucus.


Lack of empathy from fellow Indian-Americans is so true. Just look at the comments in the below article you posted . It could also be that those are Iranians/Chinese/Pakis/EJ "ambedkarites"/Khalistanis/Deracinated "Hindus in name only"/or Anyone else with fake Indian names

Indian software engineer in Green Card backlog dies suddenly, leaving pregnant wife out of status
https://www.americanbazaaronline.com/20 ... us-439189/

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Nov 2019 07:48

Durbin is a Paki-funded slime as bad as Burton and Pakin Harkin.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Zynda » 07 Nov 2019 19:29

Shouldn't the above be in Understanding US Thread?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby VenkataS » 08 Nov 2019 01:37

Zynda - Rudradev cross posted it there.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ramana » 08 Nov 2019 02:12

But is valid here too, to understand the big picture.
The reality is both Democrats and Republicans don't like/ highly conflicted about immigration but US needs it.

Democrats want Hispanic immigrants for vote banks but not Indian American high tech workers who hurt their vote base.

Republicans don't want Hispanic immigrants as they are the Democrat vote base but their farm base wants cheap labor.

They want Indian American immigration as they know the industrial base is eroded with baby boomer retirements and too few replacements in the high technology areas.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby A_Gupta » 08 Nov 2019 02:39

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... an-groups/
Mike Pence’s Office Pushed to Reroute Foreign Aid to Favored Christian Groups

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 08 Nov 2019 03:22

VenkataS wrote:Look at the following video where an Iranian immigrant mocks Indians by presenting the Senator a green index card and Senator playing along with him.
https://twitter.com/psyinfeld/status/11 ... 9877427200


I can't get to the video as that account has become private. Is that video available elsewhere? I have gone through the writeup on medium. Dick Durbin is a di*k.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 08 Nov 2019 03:30

ramana wrote:Republicans don't want Hispanic immigrants as they are the Democrat vote base but their farm base wants cheap labor.


Added to that, Hispanics are catholic and conservative. Many (but not a majority) vote GOP.


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