India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

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vish_mulay
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby vish_mulay » 01 Apr 2018 08:04

Primus for us the most expensive cost was roof and education in a decent school for 2 boys. Area I looked was suburbs like Kandivali. Nothing fancy but was stumped with cost of living including monthly groceries. Grains milk and meat were more expensive than Australia. Greens were cheap. Fruits were surprisingly more expensive. Spend 5 weeks in India to have a feel and felt that cost of living was not much different however if I look for same quality of goods, it was more expensive in Mumbai.
Mort we are missing our family and friends. I completely agree that my boys are not getting best of their culture and traditions.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Hari Seldon » 01 Apr 2018 12:16

Image

I don;t expect even a peep from those opposing aadhaar in the name of privacy or something.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Avarachan » 01 Apr 2018 13:03

A continuation of my previous post:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7355&p=2261836&sid=b255b69c99a62b28ec6388e3d0659dee#p2261836

Regarding Indian history, Indian Orthodox and Hindus allied together against jihadist aggression ... The best-known example of this is Tipu Sultan's 1789-1790 invasion of Travancore (today, part of Kerala). Tipu Sultan was a vicious man, known for slaughtering non-Muslims (both Hindus and Christians). Many Orthodox Christians served in the army of the Maharaja of Travancore. They were known for their toughness and their expertise with muskets. When Tipu Sultan invaded, he had to breach the Nedumkotta, which was a fortified defensive line about 48 km long (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nedumkotta). In December 1789, his army tried to fill the trench so as to cross. (The defense ditch is described as being from 12-20 feet deep). However, his soldiers couldn't succeed due to heavy gunfire. So, Tipu ordered his soldiers to march forward through a narrow passage. This led to disaster because a small group of elite Nair (Hindu) soldiers ambushed them. In Kerala, this is a legendary event to this day, because about two dozen commandos turned back an invading force of many thousands. The commanders of this elite unit were Vaikom Padmanabha Pillai and Kunji Kutty Pillai.

In March-April 1790, Tipu Sultan resumed the invasion. This time, he succeeded in breaching the Nedumkotta. He probably would have succeeded in destroying and Islamicizing Travancore it if not for the heroism, once again, of Vaikom Padmanabha Pillai and Kunji Kutty Pillai. Tipu Sultan's army camped along the banks of the Periyar River at Aluva (Alwaye). Vaikom Padmanabha Pillai and Kunji Kutty Pillai led a small group of soldiers who went upstream and broke open a dam at Bhoothathankettu. That caused a massive flash flood which destroyed Tipu's force. The surviving jihadists were rendered ineffective because their gunpowder had been soaked (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysorean_ ... Travancore).

In the Indian Orthodox community, the defeat of Tipu's invasion is seen as miraculous and an answer to prayer. The Fast before the Nativity of St. Mary commemorates that to this day (http://mosc.in/the_church/spirituality/ ... abstinence). Also, we have never forgotten that Hindu soldiers saved us. By the way, Padmanabha Pillai and Kunji Kutty Pillai were executed by the British in 1809, which is one of many reasons I loathe the British imperialists
(http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 628907.ece).

I heard the story about the drowning of Tipu's army in the Periyar River when I was a boy. Our closest family friends were Hindu. Also, because of the way he protected Hindu and Christian refugees of the jihad, the Maharaja of Travancore at that time, Rama Varma, is honored as "Dharma Raja," by Hindus and Christians, to this day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_Raja).

All of this is to say that those who group Orthodox Christianity and Islam together as "Abrahamic religions" against the "dharmic religions" are ignorant of how Indian Orthodox Christians and Hindus have interacted with each other for two thousand years.

This is all I have time for tonight ... I won't be able to write more for some time because this upcoming week is Holy Week for Orthodox Christians. Writing these posts is taking more time than I had anticipated.
Last edited by Avarachan on 01 Apr 2018 21:24, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Arun.prabhu » 01 Apr 2018 13:42

It’s their country. If one opposes this policy, as a foreigner, one need not visit America. No such option with Aadhar as an Indian citizen, is there?

Hari Seldon wrote:Image

I don;t expect even a peep from those opposing aadhaar in the name of privacy or something.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby panduranghari » 01 Apr 2018 14:12

Mort Walker wrote:^^^Aside from cost there is a higher cost you may pay living outside of India. That is that no one lives forever. You may miss key life events of your family, particularly of parents and siblings. What values and culture do you wish instill in your children? At some point the west will digest your children or grandchildren. Be prepared for that as many of us will have children who marry non-Indians (many of whom may be good people) but they will not share the same ethos.


Agreed Saar.

The only reason for Indians to immigrate to the west predominantly is for education and making more money, thus hoping for better quality of life in India( because relatively speaking you could save a lot of surplus income as living expenses were lower). Human behaviour is narrative driven. And this narrative is broken and is unravelling right before our eyes. Very few Indians migrate specifically for permanent migration. It happens secondary to the relative poverty in India for doing the same job.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Primus » 01 Apr 2018 21:11

kiranA wrote:
Primus wrote:There are too many variables in this situation.

All depends on where in Sydney and where in Mumbai, or where in NY vs where in Delhi.

Here is a comparative analysis of cost of living in major metros around the world.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Mumbai

I don't agree with the figures for NYC, they are quite a bit higher - I ought to know. So cannot vouch for accuracy of other cities. But according to this, Sydney ranks 47th in the world, Mumbai 533rd and Delhi 537th out of 577 surveyed.

From my own experience over the years, human labor is still inexpensive in India compared to the West, while cost of finished Industrial goods is still somewhat higher, although that gap is closing rapidly. Eating out is much cheaper of course, although with PPP it may not be entirely so.


The largest mandatory expenses for any family is rent, education, commuting and travel, utility and groceries. Apart from rent, in everything else west is cheaper. Top quality school education is free while very expensive in India. Excellent quality cars can be had very cheap (esp if used) in west. And if you account for traffic jams and pollution both are far higher in India , transportation is cheaper in west. Eating out is also cheaper in USA if you control for confidence in hygiene,quality of produce etc.



Education: I paid almost $750,000 to put my two kids through college, basic undergrad course, not even medicine or law. This is when my son had won a scholarship. Of course these fees were in 'ivy-league' schools but then if your kids manage to get in, would you not want them to study there? Imagine if your kids make into IIT in India you would move heaven and earth to send them there.

Apart from college, school taxes where I live are over $20,000 per year, and I have to pay this even when my kids are long out of school. It is just the cost or living where I do. Then of course there are other property taxes, but not going to discuss that here.

Commuting:

Cost of car - In India, you can get a cheap car for less than $5000, in the US, it costs over $12,500, realistically you pay closer to $15,000. Granted it may be bigger than what you can buy in India and with more features, but the point is availability.

Car Insurance: I pay over $1000 a year in car insurance, 3rd party is absolutely mandatory and anybody with any income needs at least a 1 million policy.

Tolls and such: Each trip into New York costs $15 in bridge/tunnel tolls

Of course you can save by going by train/bus on a monthly pass, but it is highly inconvenient in most places in the US.

Travel: Domestic airfares and train-fares in the US are much higher than in India. Won't go into details.

Utilities and Groceries:

Definitely much higher in the US. A typical television and internet is at least $100 per month, if you want select channels and other features, expect to pay much more. If you want Indian shows, cricket, add even more.

I pay much more for my cell phone per month than I would in India, incoming calls are NOT free in the US.

Won't go into groceries, but refer to the website I quoted earlier.

Eating out is way more expensive in the US, and not always safe, I ought to know, see people suffering from food poisoning all the time.

Traffic jams can be just as bad though not always. I do agree that overall pollution is way less here.

The only thing India offers is cheap human costs. Having a maid around or helper around when in old age can be invaluable. Also India offers for most indians a sense of community and someone you can count on for emergencies in india which may not be available to all indians in west. Another massive help in India is most upper middle class may get around legal issues whereas the book is thrown to the faces of many indians in the west.

In the end it is very complex and each individual has to decide for himself. But for a westerners in west, same quality of life is much cheaper than an indian in india.


Agree with you, human labor is so much cheaper in India. In the US, a full-time human companion for an elderly person can cost over $100,000 per year.

This is a topic I've been discussing with family/friends and on internet forums for over 30 years, it is too complicated. Bottom-line, live where you are happy, and happiness is where the heart is.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Primus » 02 Apr 2018 03:53

vish_mulay wrote:Primus for us the most expensive cost was roof and education in a decent school for 2 boys. Area I looked was suburbs like Kandivali. Nothing fancy but was stumped with cost of living including monthly groceries. Grains milk and meat were more expensive than Australia. Greens were cheap. Fruits were surprisingly more expensive. Spend 5 weeks in India to have a feel and felt that cost of living was not much different however if I look for same quality of goods, it was more expensive in Mumbai.
Mort we are missing our family and friends. I completely agree that my boys are not getting best of their culture and traditions.


Refer to the website I posted earlier. Unfortunately, meat is heavily subsidized in the US, costs less than vegetables. In India meat costs what it should in any society.

I have several family members in Delhi, living in posh neighborhoods, enjoying all the comforts of modern living, taking trips abroad at least once a year (to the US and elsewhere). Some of them are government employees, both husband and wife working and I know they are not corrupt (jobs do not allow it anyway). I don't know how much they earn, but it is likely to be less than 2 lakhs each per month.

Everything is relative. Things look very rosy from a distance. I suppose that applies to all of us.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby vish_mulay » 02 Apr 2018 05:24

Primus I think as far as US is concern, health care and higher education are more expensive vis a vis Australia. Schooling and 4 yrs degree is relatively free here (university expenses are going up but no where near cost you posted,~15k per year plus living). Medical cost are very low due to Medicare as of now but am not sure how long we will get it. What really surprised me was food prices (not restaurant but grocery for daily meal) and schooling (anywhere between 80 k to 250 k INR per child per year for decent non convent schools). If you have ancestral property, I think you can still live comfortably in India. However, if you are without residence it can get very tight budget even for double income families. I am looking for an excel sheet I prepared with actual expenses comparison, I will post it if I find it in my backup. We are doing lot of equity and assets investments now with the intention of living off returns in 10 yrs time in India at my native place. Let’s see how it pans out.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Hari Seldon » 02 Apr 2018 08:44

Had to imagine how someone who has lived and worked outside in 'em emerged economies, particularly those in 'em balmy temperate climes, could even contemplate returning to the heat, grime and dust of India.

My humble salutes to those who do.

P.S. I returned too, a decade off ago. Sometimes wonder if staying on there would not have been better. But with each passing year, the regret lessens some more. Now its turned net negative (negative regret == gratitude) only, glad to say. Only.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby vera_k » 02 Apr 2018 09:37

Re - the cost discussion

From experience, expecting that a middle class lifestyle in the USA translates to a wealthy lifestyle in India does not work. For instance, sending the kids to a government school in the USA, and then wanting them to go to a private school in India does not pencil out.

However, if you're wealthy in the USA, India will seem cheap. But then most everywhere will seem cheap.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby arshyam » 02 Apr 2018 11:03

When in Rome, be a Roman. The mistake many NRIs make when trying to R2I is to carry along their NRI lifestyle - large houses, multiple cars (can't drive in India, so need drivers), shopping, fine dining, etc. - a lifestyle reflective of what they left behind. Schooling has to be international so the kids could go back one day. But is naturally very expensive. Schools they attended themselves are now out of the question, which despite whatever shortcomings, did deliver and help them learn skills to settle and thrive so far away from home. Invariably, given a combination of the above, many of them don't make it and turn tail and go "back home". It is surprising to see this of people whose childhood was middle middle-class, but now cannot fathom such a lifestyle. A few years in "phoren" does that, I suppose. Of course, this is one's personal preference, but I find maintaining a middle class lifestyle on a larger income actually works out best.

Another factor is the social expectations in India - being far away in US/Aus means having relatives/social obligations on one's own terms, and time makes one accustomed to that. Coming back brings all that in full flow and not many are able to adjust, especially the ladies, whose workload does increase. Many people I know who want to come back are stuck back in massa due to this factor onlee :lol:. So it is important to have the right expectations and not have a rose-tinted view from outside and expect it to be easy.

Hari Seldon wrote:P.S. I returned too, a decade off ago. Sometimes wonder if staying on there would not have been better. But with each passing year, the regret lessens some more. Now its turned net negative (negative regret == gratitude) only, glad to say. Only.
+100. Been close to two years for me, couldn't have been happier, though there have been challenges and frustrations. But these are easier to face since the reward is "being home", so it works out in the end.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Philip » 02 Apr 2018 14:17

I know what it is to be an NRI. It takes a while to become 'local".When you first arrive,you become more "Indian" than you were back home, if that underscoring of identity gives you a sense of security and sometimes superiority in certain situations.Those who do adjust quickly succeed faster.Those who stay for decades will find that their children will not be desi and some first-gen immigrants will bemoan the fact!

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vikas » 02 Apr 2018 14:36

Phoren is no longer what it used to be hence the lure is gone to some extent. There are days of reminisce but heart no longer tugs to get one more stamping on my passport. R2I is not for everyone and first year is truly hard to live thru.
Crowd, Heat, grime and dust is horrible in Desh, but then these are the choices we need to make. I know few of the folks in my social circle who went back to cooler climates of Europe and USA after few years in B'lore.

Vish_mulay ji, Mumbai is expensive (except for local trains) irrespective of where you are coming from.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Supratik » 02 Apr 2018 23:28

Correction to the demographics data. From US Census Bureau. Figures for 2016. Chinese alone or mixed 4.9 million. Indian alone or mixed 4.1 million. If you believe wiki more than half a million mixed race (i.e. Indian and some other race).

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby panduranghari » 03 Apr 2018 01:34

Hari Seldon wrote:Had to imagine how someone who has lived and worked outside in 'em emerged economies, particularly those in 'em balmy temperate climes, could even contemplate returning to the heat, grime and dust..
P.S. I returned too, a decade off ago. Sometimes wonder if staying on there would not have been better. But with each passing year, the regret lessens some more. Now its turned net negative (negative regret == gratitude) only, glad to say. Only.


Mini-max regret. A good way to decrease uncertainty and be more fulfilling. Not as easy as it seems. I am glad you got there Saar.


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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rudradev » 04 Apr 2018 11:27

More than 80% of Hindu American marriages are now Interracial or Interfaith (compare to 40% ten years ago, and only 15% 20 years ago).

Unless we replenish our stock from the homeland, we will go extinct.

http://indianewengland.com/2018/03/almo ... ter-faith/

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Kati » 04 Apr 2018 12:27

May be this is not the right thread, but wanted to continue with what I posted earlier about Chinku deep 'penetration' into Unkil's system......

While Chunkus are in a maddening rush to grab all western, especially unkil's know-hows, from satellite tech to latest psychological research
(did you know that psyc depts are seeing a spike in chinku grad students?), unkil seems to be more relaxed mode, and apparently using this
opportunity to make 'contacts' in chinku-land through these chinku students/scholars. Two specific tools, somewhat working in tandem, are
coming very handy. Anyone having some knowledge of US universities knows that each campus has a plethora of christian churches - Campus
catholics,'first batpists', united methodists, etc etc. which are doing overtime to attract international students, and their main goal is to attract
more 'oriental students'. Interestingly, there is a subtle racial undertone here. These campus ministries are not that interested in desi / south
asian crowd; and even if some desis get attached to these campus churches, they get a look of pity, or a look of disdain from the gora office
bearers. But if somehow, a whitish / yellowish small-eyed person crosses their door, then boy, oh boy, they will go head over heals to make that
person welcome. One thing has probably gone into the campus ministries' heads that desis are not easy to crack, and they might gravitate back
to their ethno-religious cultural roots after the initial necessary helps, from logistics to daily coffee-donuts consumption, are done. Among the
oriental crowds, the first 'pasand' is the people from aethist Pee-Aar-See, followed by Vietnam. However, lately these campus ministries are
giving a huge push to attract students from Indonesia, Malayasia and Bangladesh - all predominantly muslim countries. These campus ministries
work as eyes and ears of unkil's agencies. Some of the campus ministries have direct link with the major churches outside the campus. The campus
ministries' main job is the grab the fish, and then pass them on to bigger churches outside the campus to avoid any controversies. Once the link
is established with the off-campus churches, then the bigger game starts. These oriental students are wined and dined lavishly, they are
assigned to specific 'host families' to take care of their needs, sometimes it may cross the limit of decency. A small minority of the oritental
students/scholars broke off their contacts with the churches after they flt that these church people were too much into their personal life.
Anyway, many off-campus churches have hired pastors or office-bearers who are ethnic oriental and/or fluent mandarin, cantonese, korean and
vietnamese. In building the contacts with the oriental students, another tool comes handy, - that is the various foreign language departments,
in general, but specifically the department in charge of intensive english teaching to oriental students. As such officially these departments do not
deal with the campus ministries, but the campus ministries have implants in these departments. Once the contacts solidify, then these
oritental students / scholars are used to find out what their relatives are doing in their native lands. People from off-campus will go on visits
as "tourists" to visit their native lands, often stay with them, bring expensive gifts, and cement the contacts even further. Interestingly, these
foreign "tourists" have close contacts with unkil's 'aid-office', and many of them have been visiting one innocuous place - that is nepal.
Surprising, isn't it? Another interesting fact has emerged. After nine-11, there was a spike of gora grad students in various STEM programs
in universities. Later it came to be known, based on partial info, anecdotal evidence, that these 'students' came from various agencies of
unkil, and were fluent in many asian languages. However, they tended to keep a low profile while they continued their 'studies'.
Both Chinku-land and unkil are using one common tool to to size up each other - that is the route through marriage. ... That will be another
episode for another day. But one thing is concerning: Some gora aadmi have married some ethnic nepali ladies from Darjeeling to uttaranchal,
and living in the sensitive border region of Bharat. Apparently they have built close contacts with local 'kotwals' by gifting them booze and
other goodies generously. People in the know must keep a close watch on this matter.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Primus » 04 Apr 2018 16:45

Rudradev wrote:More than 80% of Hindu American marriages are now Interracial or Interfaith (compare to 40% ten years ago, and only 15% 20 years ago).

Unless we replenish our stock from the homeland, we will go extinct.

http://indianewengland.com/2018/03/almo ... ter-faith/


Within my own extended family and friend circle, it is around 55% at present, looking at over 40 such marriages so far.

In contrast, within the large circle of Jewish friends and colleagues, almost 80% are married to Jews, especially the Orthodox ones. These are again kids who were born here and grew up in a mixed culture. My business partner is Observant and of his four kids, two are married. Both had 'arranged' marriages within the Orthodox community and he is now a grandfather four times already.

Our problem I believe stems from relative apathy, lack of rigid religious programming (even the reform Jewish children I know have gone to attend Hebrew school at some time in their lives) and absolute freedom of choice that we give our children. But IMHO that is the beauty of Hinduism, even if we lose it as a faith, it is difficult to become like the muslims.

In the homeland too, Hinduism is often just lip-service, else we would not be seeing the political fissures in society we do. So I don't know if bringing people from India would help. In more than 40 marriages here among the Indian community I know of, only two have been where the girl was from India. It is much harder for kids brought up here to accept somebody 'FOB'.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Supratik » 04 Apr 2018 18:04

This will be mainly 2 or 3 generation. The answer is in bringing the spouse into the culture. For that you have to disseminate your culture and religion to 2 or 3 generation. Hindus do a bad job of it. In one of RM videos he shows that both Hindu parents and gurus/priests are reluctant to do so or don't know how to do it even when the spouses are interested. They go for a sham Hindu wedding sometimes in addition to a non-Hindu ceremony and that's it. More non-Hindus get interested in the culture/religion than Hindu parents successfully passing on the culture/religion to 2 or 3 generation.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Supratik » 04 Apr 2018 18:25

From personal observations. Three things gets Hinduism going in general. Personal habits, personal observation and community observation. Many Hindus who come over start eating beef, stop observing religion in personal space (usually women in India will have some kind of religious activity at home) or stop visiting temples and stop observing community festivals e.g. Diwali and Holi (but they will have a Christmas tree). So the kids grow up in a vaccum. Sometimes even religious parents fail to pass it on e.g. the parents of Bobby Jindal who were observing Hindus. The idea that people can convert to Hinduism is alien to most Hindus which is not the case with religious Christians, Muslims or Jews. You will find mostly elderly people and kids in temples. The young adults are missing. My personal observations. May differ with others. All this is having a cumulative effect. I am not sure if importing more people from India will help if the trend in USA stays. You need to go back to the 2 and 3 generation first.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Primus » 04 Apr 2018 20:02

I think the population needs to be at a critical mass.

When lived in the mid-west, it was hard to know who was Jewish and who wasn't, unless you were familiar with the names. There were almost no orthodox families. Thus, many of the Jews there (including my own mentor) were very liberal, ate pork and some were married to Gentiles. In New York, there is a huge presence and the Jewish community here is very powerful. Hence they are more cohesive, can dictate terms to the rest of the society and keep their own flock in line.

Same applies to the Hindus. If we have enough people observing Diwali/Holi in public space, enough Hindu centers and enough clout in the community, things will start to change. For example, our local schools now have a holiday on Diwali and also have Holi and other festivals on the school calendars. This has never happened before.

A lot also depends on the individual. A good friend, married to an Englishwoman, has brought up his two boys in the Hindu tradition, celebrated their Upanayan ceremonies with great pomp and both his boys (and therefore the father too) gave up eating beef after the events. This is a man who used to love steak. I too gave up beef over 20 yrs ago, though ate it in India and for several years after leaving the mother country.

Garv se kaho ham Hindu hain. Unless we can all stand up and say it openly in any public space we will always be apologizing for our faith and culture.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ShauryaT » 04 Apr 2018 20:35

Supratik wrote:From personal observations. Three things gets Hinduism going in general. Personal habits, personal observation and community observation. Many Hindus who come over start eating beef, stop observing religion in personal space (usually women in India will have some kind of religious activity at home) or stop visiting temples and stop observing community festivals e.g. Diwali and Holi (but they will have a Christmas tree). So the kids grow up in a vaccum. Sometimes even religious parents fail to pass it on e.g. the parents of Bobby Jindal who were observing Hindus. The idea that people can convert to Hinduism is alien to most Hindus which is not the case with religious Christians, Muslims or Jews. You will find mostly elderly people and kids in temples. The young adults are missing. My personal observations. May differ with others. All this is having a cumulative effect. I am not sure if importing more people from India will help if the trend in USA stays. You need to go back to the 2 and 3 generation first.

Catch them young and give your time and knowledge to your own kids and the community. Some great things happening in the area we live in but critical mass is not a bad thing. One thing missing is a coherent theological view of Dharma principles and the ability to differ with known accepted current fads in US society and its social mores and be comfortable in one's own skin, literally and figuratively. Raise your kids with this confidence that SD's rewards are true and sweet, teach them about the "teachings" of our heritage and you will raise far more secure and hopefully a sustained model to pass on across multiple generations. I am directly involved at the grassroots, seen successes and failures and quite frankly limitations - largely self-inflicted and the results of a colonized society we have come from.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Supratik » 04 Apr 2018 20:56

It depends e.g. in Mauritius it helped that Hindus were the majority and most remained so and they are into their religion/culture with gusto. In Trinidad even though at one point Hindus were a majority they declined with now only 18% Hindu. Pressure and persecution may have played a role in the latter.

Often due diligence in inter-racial or inter-community marraiges are crucial. I will describe two cases of guys who were dating white girl. In both cases the girls were practicing Christians. Both guys were not known to be religious Hindus. One guy was adament that he was not interested in compromising his culture/religion. So the relationship was called off. In the other case the guy got married and the daughter-in-law was threatening to throw away all pictures and murtis of Hindus gods/godesses in his mother's house as they were worshipping the devil. In India when people get married compatibility of the families is often a key requirement. In the west it is physical attraction plus financial plus general compatibility. Other things are overlooked.So finding the right match in the west is important. Often parengts compromise for the "happiness" or "insistence" of their kids. But it is quite quixotic to find young Hindu adults missing from temples while you see people of non-Hindu background jumping up and down in ISKCON temples or flooding venues to get a hug from Mata Amritanandamayi or other meeting other gurus.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Primus » 04 Apr 2018 21:01

I think the problem is ourselves - I am as guilty as anybody else. Too caught up in the rat race, the need to succeed in a new world when faced with overwhelming odds, religion takes a back seat. The daily grind gets you down in ways you do not realize. You continue with the usual festivities on special days, but there is no 'teaching' the rest of the year. By the time you 'settle down' and have the time to talk to your kids about Dharma, it is usually too late. This is especially an issue if you live in an area where there is no temple to go to and your community is very small. If there are no other brown kids with funny names in class, your kids never get to know themselves.

The solution is to put aside time on a regular schedule, say every Sunday evening after dinner, simply to discuss Dharma and do some basic prayers together. We started this, but a bit late when the kids had already developed their own idea of faith and what it meant to them. Not being rigid about it means they don't particularly feel the need to follow Hindu practices in daily life, although we have been able to inculcate a sense of pride so that they don't end up converting to another religion simply to get married - happens more often than one realizes.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Supratik » 04 Apr 2018 21:28

Books are a great way to teach. Most of my understanding came from them right from the teens. That is how one can understand the culture/religion/practices even if you don't really practice rituals or visit a temple. As RM says the core of Hinduism and other dharmic faiths are universal i.e. anyone from any race or country or background can follow it.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Primus » 05 Apr 2018 00:58

Supratik wrote:Books are a great way to teach. Most of my understanding came from them right from the teens. That is how one can understand the culture/religion/practices even if you don't really practice rituals or visit a temple. As RM says the core of Hinduism and other dharmic faiths are universal i.e. anyone from any race or country or background can follow it.


Agree. However, try getting youngsters to read books these days is like making them eat their vegetables or worse.

In your two specific cases, the problem is of poor communication and perhaps incomplete disclosure between the boy and girl regarding these seemingly trivial but really vital issues. Sometimes the marriage goes fine, but the real trouble starts when the kids come, which religion will they follow? Not surprisingly, it is the Hindu who gives in, though not always.

I know so many Hindus of the next generation who are in interfaith marriages where they still do Diwali pujas and such, if not at their own home, they attend with family/friends. Interestingly, many of the the children born in these marriages have Hindu names, not sure if they will be Hindus just in name or not.

Given that many Hindus today do not know anything about Dharma, simply do a few rituals now and then, how does it matter if they continue to do the same after marrying somebody of another faith? Where does the Hindu stop being a Hindu if he does not actually convert to Islam or Christianity?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Apr 2018 01:33

^^Is there a forum to discuss hinduism or that too died along with GDF?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Apr 2018 07:58

^Feeling the weight of your sins, hain? I knew it! Disrespect for one's elders, for innocent humble yak-herders etc. can be baaad, baad, on ur Karma rap sheet. # of Indus-Valley-rebirth sentences mounting by the second. Repent! Repent! be Born Again! :mrgreen:

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Pulikeshi » 05 Apr 2018 11:00

Primus wrote:I think the problem is ourselves - I am as guilty as anybody else. Too caught up in the rat race, the need to succeed in a new world when faced with overwhelming odds, religion takes a back seat.


You captured some of the complexities and connundrums - some suggestions that is still work in progress among several to share and feedback:

0. Start with the WHY: If you do not protect Dharma it will not protect you - this tautology is how it all began!
0.a Compare and contrast Dharma which is a relationship based system to social contract theory based on individuality.
0.b Leadership, solutions, happiness, comprehensive living and changing the world comes from being immersed in Dharma
0.c You belong to the oldest living civilization on the planet, you survived because of it, it is your job to protect it!

How?

1. Parents need to read up and be aware of Culture, Dharma and context themselves. Much of what I have learnt has been to disseminate.
I know several American Church going parents who inculcate their sense of Culture, Morality and Values very effectively. Hinduism in its current form is lacking on this front. There is a lot of effort needed on the part of any parent who cares... this can be fixed. Needs all of us to do more here...
2. There is no set time or day to tell stories - one can do it every night: This has been the traditional and indeed the modern way to weave the fabric of civilization into the yong one’s heart and soul. There are several not so great options - Amar Chitra Katha, Chandamama, etc. needs new work here... It never takes more than 15mins to tell a good story at bed time :-)
3. Find common value families and share festivals and functions - Temples in the US should learn to target ‘others’ - one that I go to, does Archana for example for western practitioners using “Shiva or Vishnu” gotra and their “star sign” for Nakshatra - this is an awesome evolution.
4. Teach the teachers - celebrate - Ugadi, Holi, Deepavali etc. in public and other schools. Educate the teachers - they have been very receptive.
5. Educate the community & work place - again these festivals can and have been celebrated in High Tech work places.
6. Mixed communities - Similar to Jews, there is an opportunity to create shared common space - simpler rituals (lighting the lamps - many Mayors/Governors/Presidents do it now), reading of particular passages from Veda, Upanishads or Gita, etc. Yoga camps and parties, Meditation retreats and Minute Mindful Meditation breaks in gatherings between swigs of Bourbon, so many ideas :mrgreen:

Perhaps, I need to write a book on this :-)
Last, but not least, important point - it is important to answer the “WHY” - there are many stories and experiences in our civilization that provide solutions & guidance in leadership. I’ve been able to use several Hindu and non CXO’s personal tales of their foundations, upbringing and stories/experiences rooted in India that gave them strength and ideas to overcome challenges and just get through the dark night...
Not under estimating the problem, but first step is simple actions! Enough rambling! Happy to share more if there’s a thread...

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby panduranghari » 05 Apr 2018 18:10

Primus wrote:I think the problem is ourselves - I am as guilty as anybody else. Too caught up in the rat race, the need to succeed in a new world when faced with overwhelming odds, religion takes a back seat. The daily grind gets you down in ways you do not realize. You continue with the usual festivities on special days, but there is no 'teaching' the rest of the year. By the time you 'settle down' and have the time to talk to your kids about Dharma, it is usually too late. This is especially an issue if you live in an area where there is no temple to go to and your community is very small. If there are no other brown kids with funny names in class, your kids never get to know themselves.

The solution is to put aside time on a regular schedule, say every Sunday evening after dinner, simply to discuss Dharma and do some basic prayers together. We started this, but a bit late when the kids had already developed their own idea of faith and what it meant to them. Not being rigid about it means they don't particularly feel the need to follow Hindu practices in daily life, although we have been able to inculcate a sense of pride so that they don't end up converting to another religion simply to get married - happens more often than one realizes.


I have very religiously (!) read my children stories from itihaas. So much so that at a recent temple gathering, my 7 year old was able to tell the 3 adults, who were teaching them about Ramayana, more about it than they themselves knew. Celebrating Christmas is all ok IMO, but instead of giving greeting cards to your non Hindu friends for Christmas, would it not be better if you give them cards for Deepawali? Garva Se Kahon Hum Hindu Hai.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby panduranghari » 05 Apr 2018 18:17

Pulikeshi wrote:
Primus wrote:I think the problem is ourselves - I am as guilty as anybody else. Too caught up in the rat race, the need to succeed in a new world when faced with overwhelming odds, religion takes a back seat.


You captured some of the complexities and connundrums - some suggestions that is still work in progress among several to share and feedback:

0. Start with the WHY: If you do not protect Dharma it will not protect you - this tautology is how it all began!
0.a Compare and contrast Dharma which is a relationship based system to social contract theory based on individuality.
0.b Leadership, solutions, happiness, comprehensive living and changing the world comes from being immersed in Dharma
0.c You belong to the oldest living civilization on the planet, you survived because of it, it is your job to protect it!

How?

1. Parents need to read up and be aware of Culture, Dharma and context themselves. Much of what I have learnt has been to disseminate.
I know several American Church going parents who inculcate their sense of Culture, Morality and Values very effectively. Hinduism in its current form is lacking on this front. There is a lot of effort needed on the part of any parent who cares... this can be fixed. Needs all of us to do more here...
2. There is no set time or day to tell stories - one can do it every night: This has been the traditional and indeed the modern way to weave the fabric of civilization into the yong one’s heart and soul. There are several not so great options - Amar Chitra Katha, Chandamama, etc. needs new work here... It never takes more than 15mins to tell a good story at bed time :-)
3. Find common value families and share festivals and functions - Temples in the US should learn to target ‘others’ - one that I go to, does Archana for example for western practitioners using “Shiva or Vishnu” gotra and their “star sign” for Nakshatra - this is an awesome evolution.
4. Teach the teachers - celebrate - Ugadi, Holi, Deepavali etc. in public and other schools. Educate the teachers - they have been very receptive.
5. Educate the community & work place - again these festivals can and have been celebrated in High Tech work places.
6. Mixed communities - Similar to Jews, there is an opportunity to create shared common space - simpler rituals (lighting the lamps - many Mayors/Governors/Presidents do it now), reading of particular passages from Veda, Upanishads or Gita, etc. Yoga camps and parties, Meditation retreats and Minute Mindful Meditation breaks in gatherings between swigs of Bourbon, so many ideas :mrgreen:

Perhaps, I need to write a book on this :-)
Last, but not least, important point - it is important to answer the “WHY” - there are many stories and experiences in our civilization that provide solutions & guidance in leadership. I’ve been able to use several Hindu and non CXO’s personal tales of their foundations, upbringing and stories/experiences rooted in India that gave them strength and ideas to overcome challenges and just get through the dark night...
Not under estimating the problem, but first step is simple actions! Enough rambling! Happy to share more if there’s a thread...


Pulkeshi ji,

I am stealing this post and will desseminate amongst some friends. I hope you do not mind.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Supratik » 05 Apr 2018 18:46

Start simple before you go into complex things. I started with abridged versions of Ramayana and Mahabharata which are also available in English. Then go onto abridged versions of Puranas and Panchatantras which are also available in English. This will create initial interest for teens.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ShauryaT » 05 Apr 2018 18:59

Supratik wrote:Start simple before you go into complex things. I started with abridged versions of Ramayana and Mahabharata which are also available in English. Then go onto abridged versions of Puranas and Panchatantras which are also available in English. This will create initial interest for teens.

Caution on Panchatantra. They are not in the same set of literature class and "design" as the itihaas or puraans.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Apr 2018 19:45

When I was 10, (3 saal b4 "teens", hain?) I used to see the tattered comics in the Nehru ("Children's") Park Library in Bangalore, Kerala, on days when it was raining too hard to be out on the playground for krikit.

Didn't impress me as very deep religgious instruction, but more like silly pictures of what I had in mind from stories learned at home. Are todin's Teens impressed by such stuff, or are (we) imagining that? Let's see:

Should I watch Bugs Bunny and The Terminators, or my smuggled DVD of Debbie Does Dallas, or read the Panchatantra Comics where people dressed in ridiculous shiny and heavy-looking pointy hats and standing on very poorly-design but ornate chariots address each other like:
"O Great-Great-Grand-Son of the Nephew of Pandu The Conqueror Of Kishkindha on Day When the Sun Was 2/3 covered by Clouds, As the Sun Shines Through said Dark Clouds, your VIP is showing: would you mind zipping up your fly?"


There was no D^3 in the Children's Park Library, but there were such classics as "Mutiny on The Bounty" and "Uncle Tom's Cabin" which were simply more attention-demanding. Not to mention the evil Yankee propaganda of Richie Rich Million$$$ and Archie and his teenaged houris. The houris in the 5-tantra comics were quite competitive in looks and exposure but the text was mind-numbing booooooooring.

Yes, there is a Cultural Assimilation described there, but that is mostly because "our" versions of children's books/serials, shall we say, are a bit thought/professionalism -challenged, isn't it?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ShauryaT » 05 Apr 2018 20:10

UlanBatori wrote:Yes, there is a Cultural Assimilation described there, but that is mostly because "our" versions of children's books/serials, shall we say, are a bit thought/professionalism -challenged, isn't it?
New materials and modes are always welcome. Being involved on the ground my biggest competition for mind space is Nintendo and Harry Potter! Depending on the age group new material is welcome and needed!! I would not mind someone writing a new puraan with language suited to the mass ADD world we live in but with the design intent largely intact (like Tulsidas did with Valmikis Ramayan). Maybe someone can start a puraan on twitter (160 characters only!!). With some middle school kids, I have introduced them to the Shiva trilogy by Amish Tripathi - a new take. My biggest challenge is to create some new exciting stories to impart the das lakshanas. The Himalayan Academy folks have done a credible job here. So instead of focusing too much on the visuals and the extremely boring and slow way the itiahaas and puraans is depicted on TV, completely missing some of the main lessons, I focus on the key lessons. For eg: Rama describing the flora and fauna of the land and his emotions describing how badly he misses Sita. Makes me and my class cry. Also, use the Ramayan as a Geography book. Yudhishtara getting his ass whipped by a Yaksha and gets a lesson in Dharma, similar exploration by Narad before his Rajasuya yagnaya. Making a point of NOT being same-same and being comfortable with differences. E.g: Who is superior Vishnu or Shiva. Well, depends on the sources one reads - you will never get this from ACK. Is there one god or multiple. How about No god or no one knows and that it is OK to have these varied answers. Not a system of believers but a system for seekers, ok to have questions.

As these kids grow into teenagers, important to plug them into practical aspects of Pancha Maha yajnas (volunteering). Plugging into higher academia is also happening and have some great local resources in universities. What I do not have time for is to write my own stuff.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ricky_v » 05 Apr 2018 21:51

The point of having a fantasy-industrial-complex is to serve as more than a medium for societal and cultural constructs rather than religion purposes for communicating with newer initiates. The age of the initiate is unimportant to the people in charge of peddling the particular fantasy; though it must serve as something that the consumer strives to attain, that he may feel is particularly lacking in his daily life. There must be some sort of payoff for the layman, either spiritual,artistic or scholarly, and this is where our own FIC lacks.

Why do desis discuss almost feverishly about the avengers, or any other random made up fantasy world, when they can do the same with our own hero worshiping chronicles.Do you know of any younger populace who would discuss the physical construct of Kishkinda or even any of the Janapadas rather than say that of Asgard or Rivendell? The problems are many in following our current FIC productions, they are tacky, they have no enlightenment for the viewer and worst of all, they instill repugnant aspirations in the watchers. Why are there no fantasy books that are set in our supposed golden ages, that serve as a template to our societal proclivities during that time? Flooding markets vernacular and all with such a scheme would revitalize many of us, what are LOTR and ASOIAF but europe of a bygone era, with their views on society,hierarchy, race etc. The success of even mediocre books like Meluha Chronicles clearly attest to the vast market for such.(The author should have made up characters, reading a text where your God cusses freely turned me and many others off the text.)
At the end of the day, we are all hero-worshipers, but our own current FIC produces no hero worth emulating and the older manuals are tampered with to such an extent that their consumption in modern form promotes secularism more ,than a pride in the past, whereas the foreign FIC with their plethora of inter-sectional new age heroes for all and sundry peddle their fantasy more successfully.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Supratik » 05 Apr 2018 22:00

If your kid is not reading books you have a more serious problem than anything to do with Hinduism. Visual medium does not lead to as much intellectual development as reading stuff. Also I am not sure if making a Harry Potter of Puranas or Mahabharata is either going to help your kid to think deeply about things - let alone have an understanding of anything Hindu.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ramana » 06 Apr 2018 01:06

Why don't you guys start a thread "Living out side India Cultural ramifications"

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Avarachan » 06 Apr 2018 01:16

Avarachan wrote:
Rudradev wrote:There is no reason why this land and its riches should not belong to Dharmics of Bharatiya origin. It has belonged to enough different peoples before. It will belong in future to those with the strength, intelligence, and will to take it.


This is exactly what the British imperialists said to justify their rape of India. I reject this mentality entirely. I have no desire to be like them, regardless of how much money is at stake. By the way, as always happens, rapacity destroys any community which embraces it. All of the Anglosphere countries have tremendous social problems related to their cultures of genocide. Their elites are so used to murder, theft, and deception as a business strategy they simply don't know how to create free, healthy, harmonious societies. (For instance, one can study the CIA's involvement in drug trafficking to the African-American community. Read the articles of Gary Webb. http://www.consortiumnews.com/2004/121304.html)

As is well known, Auntystan--their mother "civilization"--is on the verge of imploding.

Obviously, there's nothing wrong with Indian-Americans wanting to be treated fairly and rewarded justly for their labor. But imitating Anglo-imperialist greed and sociopathy is not the right path to take, in my opinion.


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