India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

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disha
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by disha »

Haresh wrote: And yet these are the sorts of people who right letters to American presidents concerning religious freedom in India.
Are racist, redneck bigots qualified to do this? Do they have any moral high ground?
These people are full of $hit
And several of our Desis encourage them.

I know of one USCIRF member (in his 80s) and a Buddhist (white), who is totally scared of Fascist Hindutva. Of course, when he mentioned that in a small (2-3) group of desis, one of the desis called Modi as Nazi/Hitler. And of course castigated rest for even saying the word T R U M P (remember the Modi/T r u m p meeting in Ahmedabad and T R U M P addressing the crowd?)

Maybe Amber you know this USCIRF chap I am talking about.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by sanman »

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by ShauryaT »

Takshashila Discussion Document - Assessing Arguments Against Closer India-US Ties

Our own Yusuf ji sets 12 points of view with references in this well written paper, to set his basis for conclusions.
India’s goal is to become a developed country with a capable military and a great power. It requires partners who are willing to assist in this endeavour. India’s relations with the US are on an upward trajectory. However, there will inevitably be disagreements on some issues because India is a large and proud country that pursues its own interests. But both countries will likely address the divergences pragmatically, keeping their overall interests in mind. The US remains the world’s premier power with global interests. When it intersects with India’s interests, New Delhi will cooperate. Where they do not, India will take a position based on its national interests. The United States is becoming accustomed to this, especially as its power is contested and stretched.
Those who oppose the US get carried away by what it does or does not do in other parts of the world and use it as an example or precedent to apply to India without taking into account the realities of India’s growing power and the strength of its bilateral ties. One cannot think and act like the India of
46
Assessing Arguments Against Closer India-US Ties
the previous century, which was impoverished and lacking in capacity, but rather think like a $3.5 trillion and growing economy. India sits at the table as an equal. Foreign policy must be driven by the cold pursuit of national interests, not emotions and ideology.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Cyrano »

One cannot think and act like the India of
One cannot think and act like the India of the previous century
A straw man argument. One need not go that far back. In the last 5 decades the US has repeatedly demonstrated it's propensity to harm India's interests if they happen to be in the way of American interests, however ill conceived and unjustifiable the latter may be.

Support for military dictators next door which lasted for decades is proof enough of how the US functions.

That said, India can and should engage the US as required in the pursuit of it's own national interests, with eyes open and mind alert, and with plans B and C where possible to not get into technological or security dependencies which are in reality vulnerabilities.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Amber G. »

Where is Ohio?
For those, who do not know - Ohio is a state in USA.
It is also a place, where unlike Delhi or Karnataka , one can legally discharge fireworks on Diwali to celebrate.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Amber G. »

I find that there is so much disinformation and some really bizarre narratives going on here so it may not be fruitful but FWIW allow me to comment on a few points. If interested, please read. Hope this is helpful.
chetak wrote: Amber ji,

california passed by 34-1 vote, the bill – SB 403, which would make it the first US state to add caste as a protected category in its anti-discrimination laws.

<snip> ...garcetti has not come to India to push for India's benefits, he has been sent to sow dissention and strife in the ranks...his slick and slithery mannerism is reminiscent of a snake oil salesman in the wild west
To be clear: few points -
*1> 34-1 vote was in California senate. SB403 has not passed in 'California', it still needs to be cleared in the Assembly. Even if it passes in the Assembly in *all* likelihood it is NOT going to survive the legal challenge as the SB403 will be *unlawful*.
(For example: [ur=https://verdict.justia.com/2023/05/16/p ... iminationl] see this from a top constitutional Lawyer [/url]
or see this legal letter to Senate Judiciary.)

*2 > Not to minimize the seriousness of danger od SB403 - but all the *tactical* brilliance of cabal like Aisha Wahab & Equality labs - their Kalistani/Pakistani (and unfortunately even some Indian political parties) connection got exposed like never before. The amount of awareness and danger of them among *majority* of voters surprised many -- even people like Ro khanna who are extremely quiet and peddling back to keep some support.

*3> Humiliating legal defeat of equality labs (Cisco case) removes *any* basis for many of their arguments/rationals of 'caste discrimination' existing in California - and they know it that they are not going to win the legal challenge.

*4> Meanwhile in California it self - Eg in Fremont in spite of despicable disturbance by equality labs and their cohorts, they passed proclamation against Hinduphobia..

*5> People started realizing that Caste Bill (and similar tactics by these guys) has less to do with caste and everything to do with hindu bashing.. It's encouraging to see increasing number of states and localities in US are passing resolutions/laws to discourage hinduphobia etc to designate, say Diwali as holiday..
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Amber G. »

Here is an ad in support of SB403 ..Not kidding, distributed by SB403 supporters. "Wow. Just wow! Epic movement song from India to the US. Energy like this will power the organizing for #SB403 and help end caste discrimination in California. #JaiBhim".



(IMO, it is beyond silly to put all (or even majority) Americans on the side of supporters of SB403 or drag it in every conversation as main-stream American viewpoint)
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by chetak »

Amber G. wrote:Here is an ad in support of SB403 ..Not kidding, distributed by SB403 supporters. "Wow. Just wow! Epic movement song from India to the US. Energy like this will power the organizing for #SB403 and help end caste discrimination in California. #JaiBhim".

this is the classic means of exploitation of a perceived fault line

This has legs way beyond california but they are using front men to test the waters and maybe an overton window is being setup
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by chetak »

Amber G. wrote:I find that there is so much disinformation and some really bizarre narratives going on here so it may not be fruitful but FWIW allow me to comment on a few points. If interested, please read. Hope this is helpful.
chetak wrote: Amber ji,

california passed by 34-1 vote, the bill – SB 403, which would make it the first US state to add caste as a protected category in its anti-discrimination laws.

<snip> ...garcetti has not come to India to push for India's benefits, he has been sent to sow dissention and strife in the ranks...his slick and slithery mannerism is reminiscent of a snake oil salesman in the wild west
To be clear: few points -
*1> 34-1 vote was in California senate. SB403 has not passed in 'California', it still needs to be cleared in the Assembly. Even if it passes in the Assembly in *all* likelihood it is NOT going to survive the legal challenge as the SB403 will be *unlawful*.
(For example: [ur=https://verdict.justia.com/2023/05/16/p ... iminationl] see this from a top constitutional Lawyer [/url]
or see this legal letter to Senate Judiciary.)

*2 > Not to minimize the seriousness of danger od SB403 - but all the *tactical* brilliance of cabal like Aisha Wahab & Equality labs - their Kalistani/Pakistani (and unfortunately even some Indian political parties) connection got exposed like never before. The amount of awareness and danger of them among *majority* of voters surprised many -- even people like Ro khanna who are extremely quiet and peddling back to keep some support.

*3> Humiliating legal defeat of equality labs (Cisco case) removes *any* basis for many of their arguments/rationals of 'caste discrimination' existing in California - and they know it that they are not going to win the legal challenge.

*4> Meanwhile in California it self - Eg in Fremont in spite of despicable disturbance by equality labs and their cohorts, they passed proclamation against Hinduphobia..

*5> People started realizing that Caste Bill (and similar tactics by these guys) has less to do with caste and everything to do with hindu bashing.. It's encouraging to see increasing number of states and localities in US are passing resolutions/laws to discourage hinduphobia etc to designate, say Diwali as holiday..
Amber ji,

Many thanks for the clarity.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by NRao »

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by ricky_v »

podcast of tellis on ind-us relationship
dt. 16.05.23
https://www.cfr.org/podcasts/us-india-r ... y-j-tellis
portion of the transcript
And there was a particular irritation in India with U.S. support for Pakistan, correct?


That was a major element. So I think there were two or three dimensions why India felt alienated from the United States. First, I think it looked at the U.S. primarily as the successor state to Great Britain in terms of the management of the international system. The U.S. was of course not a colonial power in the subcontinent, but it took over Great Britain's responsibilities and how it managed the system. And India, which was a post-colonial state, did not particularly warm up to the idea that it was moving from a colonial era now to an era of great power competition where countries like itself would have no voice or have a limited voice. So I think that was the first dimension.
It didn't want to be part of either bloc.And then the third was that because of bloc politics, the United States ended up in an awkward position of being allied with Pakistan, not because Washington actually thought about Pakistan as a serious partner, but because the Pakistanis were smart enough to exploit block politics through the mechanism of joining an alliance as opposed to India, which attempted to exploit block politics by essentially sitting out of alliances. But Pakistan's choices exploiting bloc politics by joining the alliance meant that the United States could provide Pakistan with both significant economic and military assistance. And guess what? You know that military assistance was obviously used by the Pakistanis against India. And that colored New Delhi's perceptions of Washington in ways that were not particularly conducive to building the relationship that both sides wanted in the abstract.
So there were two of the three big impediments that disappeared post 1991, but there was a third, and the third impediment sort of is rooted in India's 1974 decision to test a nuclear weapon.

And that test alarmed the United States because it woke us up to the challenges of nuclear proliferation. And after that 1974 test, the United States responded by creating an ever tightening sanction regime of which India was a principle target because we were trying to prevent India from becoming a full-blown nuclear weapons power. Now, India tested nuclear weapons again in 1998, during which time the Clinton administration, which was then in office again piled on a further set of sanctions on India. So by the time George Bush comes into office, the one big impediment structurally that still prevents the full transformation of the relationship was India's nuclear status. And Bill Clinton attempted to resolve that problem by trying to put the genie back in the bottle and telling India that although it tested nuclear weapons, it must not deploy nuclear forces. That was the essence of the bargain that he thought would be palatable.



Needless to say, the Indians wanted no part of that kind solution. What President Bush did was that he recognized that our extent not proliferation policy towards India failed, ditto for Pakistan, and they needed to change course. And throughout the first term... And this is really a tribute to Bob's leadership at the embassy actually in Delhi. Throughout the first term of the Bush administration, Bob led a campaign to create a rapprochement between India and the United States on nuclear matters. And we really were advocating some sort of a deal. The precise contours of the deal are not pertinent at this point, but we were advocating a deal. In the second term, after Bush got reelected, he made this very bold decision to then move forward with the deal.
And so he offered India something that we have not offered to any non-NPT signatory. The NPT being the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. We gave India the privilege of maintaining its nuclear weapons program and doing whatever it wanted with this nuclear weapons program while still offering it full opportunities for nuclear cooperation, as well as cooperation in other areas of advanced high technology. So in other words, India, although not being an NPT signatory, could maintain its weapons program while still having a new and very productive relationship with the United States.
But precisely because India does not want to become a confederate of the United States, does not want to sacrifice its independence even as it is assisted by the United States. It's very cautious and always very conscious about the limits of its partnership. And that's the point that I think we need to remember because sometimes Americans tend to be excessively romantic. We think of our partnerships as partnerships between friends.
But they're simply not eager to behave as other U.S. allies might. And the two classic opposing cases would be Japan and Australia, where Japan and Australia clearly see working with the United States, even in the context of conflict as being central to their national security interests. And that's what AUKUS means in one instance, and that's what the Japanese redefinition of its national strategy means in a different instance. Both of them see working with the United States sort of hand in glove as being very important for success vis-a-vis China.

I think India has a much more restrained perception of what managing China requires. It requires competing with China in terms of providing alternatives to other Asian states. And that's why it's working through the Quad, working in Southeast Asia, and so on and so forth. It requires creating diversification options in the area of economics so that China does not become the sole monopoly provider of goods, especially high-end goods to the world. That's something it wants to work with. It wants to work with the United States in terms of exercising, in terms of building up the capabilities to signal to China that it has powerful friends. But I think it looks at America's conflicts with China as America's conflicts with China, and does not want to make any decisions that prejudge or pre-commit it to working with the United States in the context of a geopolitical meltdown. And from an Indian point of view, it is an entirely irrational calculation on the part of New Delhi. It's not something that should surprise us.
The point that I constantly make is that India wants capabilities that enable it to stand on its own even vis-a-vis a superior power like China. But it does not imagine that coalition defense operations against China are anywhere on its menu of options. Now remember, there's a very important historical anecdote. In 1962, during the height of the Sino-Indian War, Prime Minister Nehru then appealed to President Kennedy for assistance. And President Kennedy responded fulsomely by authorizing transfers of equipment and so on and so forth. He also authorized that the United States take responsibility for the air defense of India, and that would require, of course, American aircrafts, American pilots, American surface-to-air missiles, et cetera, et cetera, to operate out of Indian soil. Prime Minister Nehru did not exercise, did not accept that offer, even though we signed an agreement, which I think is still on the books for an air defense vis-a-vis China, but that would've been a bridge too far.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Cyrano »

Tellis is saying all this and still writes inane articles in MSM press ? Just to make a few bucks from multiple pay masters ?
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Bart S »

What he said above was equally inane and patronizing and cleverly misrepresents things to make it all look like India's fault and paints the picture that India is an unreliable partner.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by chetak »

The US has openly entered the Indian toolkit market and their target is the 2024 elections

why did we welcome garcetti, the snake oil salesman.... was it for this creep to abuse our hospitality

are they recruiting a new army of trolls.......

read the deceptive tweet and the wording


Image


Image


https://sundayguardianlive.com/news/ant ... se-pm-modi

The US has openly entered the Indian toolkit market and their target is the 2024 elections

why did we welcome garcetti, the snake oil salesman.... was it for this creep to abuse our hospitality

are they recruiting a new army of trolls.......

read the deceptive tweet and the wording


Image


Image


https://sundayguardianlive.com/news/ant ... se-pm-modi


Image
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by disha »

Amber G. wrote:
Where is Ohio?
For those, who do not know - Ohio is a state in USA.
It is also a place, where unlike Delhi or Karnataka , one can legally discharge fireworks on Diwali to celebrate.
Amber, What do I know? I am from Bengalore, Kerala only. You do not need to show your size to prove your point*!

And I do support prohibition of fireworks in dense cities like Bengalore, Kerala until the reptilian and monkey brain of the one-chromosome different from the chimp who in all its wisdom calls the self-ape as sapien gets wise with the dangers to others. Diwali or no Diwali.

And like Bengalore, Kerala several cities and states across US West has banned (prohibited) fireworks. Diwali or no diwali. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... y-portland

This is another aspect of US-India relationship and the role of sarkari desis. The sarkari desis who like jews in germany initially supported nazis going after fellow jews, just so that they can flaunt their superiority. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... EC566FE979.

This sarkari desis look down upon the rest of the desis. are satisfied with tokenism like Diwali greetings and collaborate with their masters, mostly out of colonial inferiority, to cause serious injury to the American Hindu and by extension to Indo-American community.

The sarkari desis love to flaunt their connections, their economic status and their material wealth so that they can feel better and fill the gnawing ennui in their hearts, and towards that they become what I call as Pelosi Bitches or Hillary Bitches or Bidet toadies. For example, this sarkari desis support Comma,La just because she is "South Asian Woman" and do more harm to the Hindus and Indians in US .

For example, Aisha wahab is a Democrat, Hayward and several Hindu desis supported her because she represents progressive woman and of course a democrat party candidate and for several desis, it is no matter who vote blue in Kahlifornia.

I will list the failures of the Sarkari Desis after the following.

Coming to US Prez Bidet, the US SD and Garcetti and all the hangar ons in the current establishment:

1. The Indo-US (India/Japan/Aus/US) meet is cancelled and a damp squib since Bidet will meet Modi for the same in Japan itself. I do not think Bidet has the physical and mental capacity currently to take on the challenges at home due to Debt cieling talks collapsing, war with Russia, the failing economy and the upcoming elections.

2. Modi visit to US and meeting Biden is just a photo-op to show that US-India strategic partnership is on even keel. Nothing substantive will come out of it.

3. 2024 is going to be the watershed year for the human civilization. Two prominent democracies will be going for elections. The next decade will be defined by who comes to power where. Bidet and team are most likely to lose 2024 presidential bid and Modi & team are most likely to win 2024 elections.

In case Bidet comes back again as US Prez, he will be a lamest duck president in US history and the trajectory of US will go down. Indo-US relations will be frosty with morons like Garcetti doing their woke damage and US SD doing its nonsense. China will want this. Sarkari desis will suck their thumb and support this (remember they belong to no matter who vote establishment blue)

In case Trump comes back again as US Prez, the Indo-US trajectory will be on an altogether different keel. This is something China will not want. The Sarkari desis will try to become more woke than woke.

And in case Bob Kennedy Jr. comes to fore OR Ron DeSantis, it is a gray zone where the focus of the incumbent will be to try to get into seat and figure out what to do with the economy.

The failures of the Sarkari Desis are several. As they believe in tokenisms like Diwali in Ohio (again where is it?), but turn a blind eye to this Diwali **

https://abc7.com/oakland-car-on-fire-vi ... /13222542/

Sarkari desis have failed:

1. To provide any help to several Indians laid off in the tech recession. In fact, sarkari desis went ahead and dumped on them.
2. What happened to removal of country based quota for GC?

The sarkari desis will dance up and down and kiss arse of the democrats and support removing the "wall" from the border state and allow illegal immigration. But never they have given a strong voice for removing country quotas. Why? Since the former is fashionable and later is not.

And of course, Diwali celebration on paper in Ohio is something to flaunt at.

3. SB 403 is dangerous. Very dangerous.

SB403 means US Hindus has to start carrying caste certificate in California. Next step is what? Hang caste certificates from the neck?

SB 403 is locked and loaded. Passed in CA Senate by 34-1 and will likely pass in house as well. It is waiting for delivery and cannot be aborted.

To state that "if it passes in House, it will face legal challenges" is like stating that after the baby is born, we will ensure that it will be aborted.

4. SB-403 I suspect has US SD support. This is like a leverage to be gained on Modi during his visit to US. If anyone in the team visiting US speaks against SB403, the Indian government will be castigated as supporting caste. If they do not speak or mention it, it will be twisted as Modi failing indo-americans. Heads I win, tails you lose scenario.


* Point size or font size. In case it is not clear.
** Members are encouraged to see the video about the fireworks in Oakland. It is a stones throw away from Hayward. The news URL is above.

On a personal note, Amber. You need to use your contacts and call up each and every one in the democratic establishment and put both Aisha Wahab and SB403 in a corner. Here is my point, all your wealth, contacts and superior economic status will *not* prevent you from growing old and dying. The same goes for everyone.

So use your contacts now. Since you will not be able to use them in after life. Having put the likes of Aisha Wahab in power, at the very least get her SB403 to stop.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by disha »

chetak wrote:The US has openly entered the Indian toolkit market and their target is the 2024 elections

why did we welcome garcetti, the snake oil salesman.... was it for this creep to abuse our hospitality

are they recruiting a new army of trolls.......

read the deceptive tweet and the wording
Garcetti is "Bin bulaya mehman", someone who shows up your doorstep and misuses your social protocol to gain advantage. Of course 2024 is the target.

And GOI will do what it needs to do.

Qstn is what will US Sarkari desis do? Vote blue no matter who?
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Pratyush »

SB 403 will quietly be diluted. Once the company's employing Indians realise how damaging it is to there survival.

Just as DEI initiatives are being rolled back accross the US.

But before that happens. It will be quite damaging to the desi community.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by krithivas »

^^^ From Cohna https://cohna.org/sb-403/
FOUR REASONS WHY THIS BILL IS PROBLEMATIC
- It will lead to religious profiling and stereotyping based on last names, dietary habits (e.g. vegetarian), religious markers, etc.
- It will lead to automatic presumption of guilt and fault when it comes to Indian Americans.
- It will deny us equal protection and due process under California law.
- Existing California laws around national origin and ancestry already provide sufficient protection against any such discrimination.
CA is very vibrant with many Hindu Temples and cultural activities, Each one of them will unethically but legally profiled. The Evangelicals are targeting those aspects of "our way of life" besides the social mobility of Hindus.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Cyrano »

why did we welcome garcetti, the snake oil salesman...
Allow me to draw a parallel here from the Ukr conflict. The more weapons the west uses, the more opportunities for Ru to decrypt and develop counter measures, ultimately strengthening Ru. And the west has fewer and fewer surprise cards to throw.

Same goes for toolkit jihad or garcetti jihad. Bring it on. Please unfurl your tail, jangle your testimonials and we will do the needed katna ! Thank you.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by SSridhar »

ShauryaT wrote:Takshashila Discussion Document - Assessing Arguments Against Closer India-US Ties

Our own Yusuf ji sets 12 points of view with references in this well written paper, to set his basis for conclusions.
I completely agree with Yusuf Unjhawala.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Amber G. »

Wow! Frankly, seeing some some comments, trolling, narratives, ad hominem insults, and display of shocking ignorance of even the most basic facts is making this thread useless to visit. Sorry not responding to some of the posts addressed to me...

Meanwhile let me just post a 18 second video clip: Indian PM Modi, US President Biden hug at G7 outreach summit in Hiroshima.

For US/India relationship - just one photograph (and newspaper stories accompanying this ) like this says more that all the "analysis" shown by rags of NYT/Dawn (or lot of posts in this thread by Brfites)...
"INDIAUS Prez Joe Biden walks upto PM Modi, both share a hug at G7 Summit in Japan"
Image



... May be it is time to stop visiting this thread... but it may well be amusing to see how this gets spun here .../sigh/
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Najunamar »

Namasthe AmberGji, While I like your perspicacious comments and posts, I do believe you have rose-tinted glasses with expect to the US. And I say this after spending 3 decades in the US, while conceding that your experience here in the US has been longer. This however does not detract from others’ views which my be quite different. I do believe asking rhetorical questions such as where is Ohio also is quite beneath your normal level of discourse. The other posters will mirror such attitudes which is unfortunate. May I request both sides to desist? I like looking at your posts as well as those of Chetakji and Dishaji.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by RoyG »

Najunamar wrote:Namasthe AmberGji, While I like your perspicacious comments and posts, I do believe you have rose-tinted glasses with expect to the US. And I say this after spending 3 decades in the US, while conceding that your experience here in the US has been longer. This however does not detract from others’ views which my be quite different. I do believe asking rhetorical questions such as where is Ohio also is quite beneath your normal level of discourse. The other posters will mirror such attitudes which is unfortunate. May I request both sides to desist? I like looking at your posts as well as those of Chetakji and Dishaji.
US is a symptom of the problem.

Can you guess what the problem is?
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by NRao »

FYI. A thread. There is an article associated with each tweet!!

https://twitter.com/sreemoytalukdar/sta ... 0891514880
Biden admin's 'dual' strategy of intensifying strategic partnership with India, while pressing Modi govt on 'values' through disinformation campaigns, is unsustainable. US may think it's a clever strategy, we think it's duplicity.
A thread on my latest. (1/8)
US State Dept's latest report on 'religious freedom' in India is based on data sourced from advocacy groups such as Indian American Muslim Council, a radical Islamist organization, and Christian evangelist groups. Conflict of interest is clear. (2/8)
A State Dept official has said Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindu Dalits are all under attack in India, and chances of "mass killings" are high. This baseless slander inflicts reputational damage on India. But that's not the only concern. (3/8)
The issue is the implicit threat that these dubious reports carry, and the basis that these may provide for future action against India when convergences may fade, and differences become greater due to a shift in India’s development curve. (4/8)
If a rising India ‘concerns’ the US enough for it to issue dubious 'reports', a more powerful, strategically autonomous India, the world’s most populous nation and the largest democracy, may make the US even more insecure. (5/8)
The activist impulse that is woven into America’s pursuit of liberal hegemony creates the basis for its social engineering and interventionist policies in other countries as a legitimate instrument of statecraft. (6/8)
For e.g., as soon as US envoy to India Eric Garcetti, a 'human rights activist', landed in India, the US embassy initiated a programme in partnership with IREX, a Soros front, also supported by Ford Foundation, to “teach" Indian youths to “think critically”. (7/8)
Unless Washington treads carefully, it may end up jeopardising a bilateral relationship that, according to Kurt Campbell, a key official in the Joe Biden administration, “is the most important partnership in the 21st century.” (8/8)
End.
Najunamar
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Najunamar »

RoyG wrote:
US is a symptom of the problem.

Can you guess what the problem is?
There are multiple causal factors- main problem is there is no disincentive perceived by the other players either bilaterally or multilaterally till now for misconduct or malicious interference into Indian internal affairs. The only way out is to repeatedly administer some knuckle sandwiches as it is known in these parts and Pavlovian conditioning will happen.
Cyrano
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Cyrano »

Some of our esteemed posters here, whose contributions are valued, might want to consider taking a more "realist" approach to evaluating India-US relations. And take into account that US' (or any country's) benevolence is not charity or some "random act of senseless kindness". Its driven by some cold calculation, self interest and furthering of its goals in that direction. And that is perfectly fine if US or someone else is doing it. Increasingly, India is doing it too, without self inflicted stigma or diffidence.

What some of us are saying is that US' past history wrt India and its affairs has been chequered to say the least. Perhaps because India didn't matter much in the past and we could not impose any costs on the US for doing what it did. Today, India's rise has been significant and our interests have grown in size and global spread. And so has our influence and reach. India's rise has come out of its own hardwork and not at the expense of someone else's well being or some other's largesse.

While from a broad perspective India and US have several areas of convergence; it is important to recognise that structurally, philosophically and civilisationally, India aims at self sufficiency and as much as possible tries to take others along in its journey. Success or dominance achieved at the expense of others will always seen by us as a failure and a weakness. Thats how we are and we strongly believe our way or the "India Way" is the right path to tread for us, and that the world will be a better place if many others did the same.

We must be clear eyed to realise that the above IS NOT the ideological or philosophical underpinning of the US. Its prides itself on its success, and ignores the fact that it has come at significant cost to others. It continues to nurture ambitions of eternal domination as a self given right, and pursues policies in that direction with any and all means it has.

This is fundamental un-brigeable chasm between India and US, and given the way the US constitution, laws, state, its organs and politics, its business are structured, it will remain that way.

Despite this chasm, there will be many points of tactical, even strategic convergence between India and US. IMO we should go ahead and make the best of it by engaging with the US in those spheres. However, given the existential chasm between the two countries, divergences will also co exist along with convergences. As long as these divergences have zero or little impact on either, we can dance along. When they become important, even central - then what ?

That is the concern may posters here share. This concern may get expressed as criticism, derision, mistrust towards US depending on the topic and what we see the US do. And we wish that were not the case. And when we see the US govt bodies, its state dept or its funded stooges indulge in baseless anti-india stuff, we are right to question US' motivations and sincerity in this relationship, because we are very clear about India's.

Hope this clears the air, and posters here holding different view points can still discuss, learn and do their bit from either side, who I believe are not separated by a chasm. Thanks.
RoyG
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by RoyG »

Najunamar wrote:
RoyG wrote:
US is a symptom of the problem.

Can you guess what the problem is?
There are multiple causal factors- main problem is there is no disincentive perceived by the other players either bilaterally or multilaterally till now for misconduct or malicious interference into Indian internal affairs. The only way out is to repeatedly administer some knuckle sandwiches as it is known in these parts and Pavlovian conditioning will happen.
To answer this question you have to ask more critical questions:

Why are we in this position to get army twisted to begin with?

Why is their an exodus of Indian talent leaving for the country arm twisting?

Why is applied science/humanities research taking place in US being driven by this talent?

Why do almost all civil servants and top gov officials have close family/money parked in US?

Why are we still not punching at or above our weight diplomatically?

In other words, what I'm trying to get at is this: if it's not US or China it will be someone else interfering. We can't stop that. What we can do is get the fundamentals right. Blaming countries for acting in their own interests is a losing battle. We need to conduct a root cause analysis and go to the source of the problem. More often than not it is domestic.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Amber G. »

From US SOS Secretary Antony Blinken:
I had a great discussion with Indian Minister of External Affairs @DrSJaishankar on the sidelines of the G7 in Hiroshima. We look forward to hosting Indian Prime Minister @NarendraModi in June, whose visit will celebrate the deep partnership between the United States and India.

Image
Meanwhile from Biden to Modi:
"You have made a fundamental shift in climate issues, you have influence in Indo Pacific, you are making a difference", US President Biden told PM Modi
sanman
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by sanman »

Najunamar wrote:
RoyG wrote:
US is a symptom of the problem.

Can you guess what the problem is?
There are multiple causal factors- main problem is there is no disincentive perceived by the other players either bilaterally or multilaterally till now for misconduct or malicious interference into Indian internal affairs. The only way out is to repeatedly administer some knuckle sandwiches as it is known in these parts and Pavlovian conditioning will happen.
You are talking about Westphalianism -- it's the Treaty of Westphalia which is supposed to have given rise to the West, in the form of Western Europe.
That treaty was about non-interference in each others' affairs.

We can dish out the knuckle sandwiches by calling out the sepoys and the 5th-columnists with appropriately cogent arguments, to discredit their shallow pretexts and motivations.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by titash »

I think Amber G-ji, the fundamental disconnect is “what you say” versus “what you do”

Most people who grew up in India and knew how people are generally treated will certify that the USCIRF and IAMC reports / statements are full of BS and in general have hostility towards the Hindu community. Perhaps the feeling that Hindus are children of a lesser God has permeated their thought process

Why else would these entities turn a blind eye towards the **real** persecution of Hindus in Pakistan, Bangladesh, and v Kashmir while actively focusing and acting on the **alleged** persecution of Abrahamics in India

The Chinese are a good example to emulate in terms of how to build national strength and respect for your nation. In spite of their **genuine** atrocities on the Uighur community, not a single “Muslim world” nation has the ball$ to say anything.

Jiski Lathi Uski Bhais- that is the takeaway irrespective of all the chumma-chaati statements
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Suresh S »

some great posts above especially from cyranoji and dishaji . Agree with those comments. USA is not the symptom it is the disease . And since we are at it I absolutely despise these american desis of a certain kind ( african americans have a nice name for them, it is called uncle sam niggers).pardon my french.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by KL Dubey »

titash wrote:I think Amber G-ji, the fundamental disconnect is “what you say” versus “what you do”
I find myself agreeing more with the poster "Amber G" on these things. I never cease to be surprised by the number of posters who think they are the first to uncover/understand/figure out various "deep and sinister plots" that the US including its deep state apparatus is hatching along with the BIFs to destabilize Bharat.

Time to get a reality check. First of all, the Bharat sarkar has much more knowledge, data, and information sources. EAM Jaishankar and other officials have regularly acknowledged the role of foreign forces. They know it. As EAM has clearly said, the rise of Bharat will not be comfortable for many, and they will try to slow it down. So all this stuff is simply par for the course and will be dealt with as needed. I'm not sure what is the agenda of the posters seeking to continually spread negative information without balanced discussion.

We cannot afford to expend our strength in running after every issue. The key challenge is to maintain a clean and accountable administration/government that is not compromised to foreign interests. The way forward is to keep strengthening our institutions. Everything else flows from that. It's a full time job.

Regarding "brain drain"/"talent drain" - the simple fact is that in a free country like India, talent will tend to go where the opportunities are, including the US. Create more opportunities and better quality of life, and more of that talent will stay in India/work for India. Or, create an explicit system to regulate export of our human resources. I've already posted on that 2-3 times, but I don't keep harping on the same thing.

There is a difference between meaningful discussion, nuisance spam, and negative propaganda/self goals.
Last edited by KL Dubey on 22 May 2023 01:03, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by KL Dubey »

RoyG wrote: Why do almost all civil servants and top gov officials have close family/money parked in US?
Instead of floating random trial balloons to generate aimless argument, let's try something else:

Here is the complete directory of all India government officials. https://www.india.gov.in/my-government/ ... -directory

1. For a start, name just 5 "civil servants and top gov officials" who have "money parked" in the US. Define what "money parked" means in each case. Let's ask these questions to the government (forward your posts).

2. Is it somehow illegal/undesirable/prohibited for "close family" of "civil servants and top gov officials" to have family that emigrated to the US ? For example EAM Jaishankar's 3 children all live/study in the US.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Y I Patel »

World affairs are changing so fast right now that a lot of people have trouble adjusting their outlook. India today is not the India of 5 years ago, neither are USA, China or Europe. The folks closest to geopolitical reality, with the greatest responsibility, are doing things that are generating a lot of mental discomfort.

This is a time of great opportunity for India, but also one where its rapid progress will cause a lot of latent anti-India sentiment to become overt. India and Indians will have to exercise great discipline in pushing back - it's going to be very seductive to use new-found power and influence to counter punch at the worst offenders, but great care will need to be taken to avoid collateral damage.

Trillions of Western dollars and attendant technological capacities are going to flow out of China in the coming decade, that's beyond doubt now. A significant chunk will be in-shored, but there's plenty available for a country that's seen as stable and friendly to US/Western interests. India stands to capture a lot more of of this flow by avoiding emotionally satisfying pissing contests with those that wish it ill.

Hide your ambition, bide your time, seize the moment. It won't come again for several lifetimes.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by vera_k »

Been mulling this over. I can only say that Indian Americans must be severely disadvantaged and some of that experience shows on this board.

Note how Indian Americans politically look like any other disadvantaged minority in the USA. Regardless of the talking points of high income and successful individuals. Those exist, but there's a much larger group that's not doing so well.

Indian-Americans Lean Left, So Why Are So Many Joining The Trump Administration?
Seventy-seven percent of Indian-Americans voted for Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton, while only 16 percent voted for Trump, according to the National Asian American Survey.
However, these disadvantages are backward looking. Like the financial advisors disclaim "Past performance is no guarantee of future returns.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Suresh S »

There are a lot of people who think that since western companies are getting out of china this is our opportunity to attract these. Nothing wrong with that thinking. But understand this if u do not respect yourself no one else will. A country must stand for itself and it,s self respect and it,s interest unapologetically only than the world will respect u sir. No one wants to get into a quarrel with any other country list of all India which does not have a history of doing this kind of thing.

Apple is coming to India not because we are a good muna who is nice and well behaved but because they see a huge market opportunity and engineering talent in the country.

If someone wants to sell to me and come to the front of my shop he is welcome but if that same person few minutes later goes behind my back and lights a fire in the back of the same shop should I just suck it up and say I will bide my time and get rich and strong first than I will respond. No totally disagree if that someone is not booted out with his legs broken that someone will not learn and respect u sir.

We welcome anyone that wants to do business with us with open arms but anyone that in the same breadth tries to harm us we should retaliate openly against such forces and countries without hesitation and throw away this colonial slave mentality. Our time has arrived and no western and eastern power can stop this.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by titash »

KL Dubey wrote:
titash wrote:I think Amber G-ji, the fundamental disconnect is “what you say” versus “what you do”
I find myself agreeing more with the poster "Amber G" on these things. I never cease to be surprised by the number of posters who think they are the first to uncover/understand/figure out various "deep and sinister plots" that the US including its deep state apparatus is hatching along with the BIFs to destabilize Bharat.
KL Dubey-ji...Amber G-ji is entitled to his viewpoint, and that is not up for debate. The question is not how the US should perceive India - that decision has already been taken and is simply being enacted. There is no "deep and sinister plots" that posters are uncovering. It is simply a recognition of the facts that the US establishment has certain things in motion, not all of which are conducive to India and by extension India's Hindu majority population
KL Dubey wrote:Time to get a reality check. First of all, the Bharat sarkar has much more knowledge, data, and information sources. EAM Jaishankar and other officials have regularly acknowledged the role of foreign forces. They know it. As EAM has clearly said, the rise of Bharat will not be comfortable for many, and they will try to slow it down. So all this stuff is simply par for the course and will be dealt with as needed. I'm not sure what is the agenda of the posters seeking to continually spread negative information without balanced discussion.
Not sure what you are offering as a reality check. We are aware that GoI has knowledge/data/other friends etc. We are also aware of EAM's statements. But your statement that "I'm not sure what is the agenda of the posters seeking to continually spread negative information without balanced discussion" is quite inappropriate. Just because others think and express a viewpoint different to yours doesn't mean they're spreading negative information and neither does it mean there's no balanced discussion.
KL Dubey wrote:We cannot afford to expend our strength in running after every issue. The key challenge is to maintain a clean and accountable administration/government that is not compromised to foreign interests. The way forward is to keep strengthening our institutions. Everything else flows from that. It's a full time job.
Foreign propaganda has a real and tangible impact - whether it's employment opportunities abroad, remittances, threat perceptions, sovereign bond interest rates, etc. It cannot and should not be ignored. If the people slandering you can do it as a full-time job, surely as a country of 1.4 Billion people you can find a couple of Mass Comm. graduates to write Op. Eds., give interviews, and point out instances of hypocritical behavior in real-time. And that is irrespective of what you do with your industrial capabilities and/or institutions.
KL Dubey wrote:Regarding "brain drain"/"talent drain" - the simple fact is that in a free country like India, talent will tend to go where the opportunities are, including the US. Create more opportunities and better quality of life, and more of that talent will stay in India/work for India. Or, create an explicit system to regulate export of our human resources. I've already posted on that 2-3 times, but I don't keep harping on the same thing.
People will do what's in their best interests and what they feel passionately about. If economic wellbeing and lifestyle is a priority then by all means you should leave India and go abroad. If your family, religion, culture, and loyalty to your place of birth mean anything to you then you should stay in India and contribute towards industrial and/or institutional capability development. Both are very legitimate approaches.
KL Dubey wrote:There is a difference between meaningful discussion, nuisance spam, and negative propaganda/self goals.
Of course there is, but it's quite unclear which of these you're contributing to :mrgreen:

No offence intended KL Dubey-ji - no more from my side
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Suresh S »

In his penultimate line Titashji has hit a full toss for a six :D
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Najunamar »

I agree the mere fact someone has family/interests in US or Europe is not going to influence thinking of GOI leaders any more than the growing presence of Indian Americans with money and more recently some power will counterbalance State department's thinkingvwhich is still shaped by cold war legacies. No one is suggesting we use disproportionate response, but only what is deserved for acts of commission and omission by such inimical foreign forces.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by SSridhar »

Y I Patel wrote:World affairs are changing so fast right now that a lot of people have trouble adjusting their outlook.
<snip>
Hide your ambition, bide your time, seize the moment. It won't come again for several lifetimes.
YIP, a great post. Completely agree with you.

As I too have been saying, the histories of post-1979 China & Meiji Japan are in front of us, from which we should learn and act.
. . . Indians will have to exercise great discipline in pushing back - it's going to be very seductive to use new-found power and influence to counter punch at the worst offenders, but great care will need to be taken to avoid collateral damage.
Very true. As an ex-Commerce secretary of GoI used to say, 'In India we assume that a project is over as soon as it is announced'. We have a long, long way to go. If we do not seize this time, we may forever not achieve the goals we have set for ourselves.
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