India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

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chetak
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by chetak »

Lisa wrote:Such operations are routine. Nothing new, move on.

https://policy.defense.gov/Portals/11/D ... 4749943344
Lisa ji,

what is certainly not routine is for the US to make such a provocative statement after the fact and that too, against a friendly country like India.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Mort Walker »

arshyam wrote:^^ It would be a mistake to equate this to a specific administration.
How many times has this patrolling happened in the past is what must be asked of the Raksha Mantri in parliament. However the opposition parties in India are complete fools.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Lisa »

Chetakji,

I do not deny what you say but such actions have also been made against Japan and South Korea, nations who are even closer to the US than India. One must not read too much into this and not fall prey to those who wish to equate us with China so as to dislocate the proceeds of the Quad, for example.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Punjabi »

We should swing by Diego Garcia and say just checking on dear friends and brought Samosa Chaat and Garam Chai and GupShup! this new POTUS/vPOTUS is not good news for NaMo. They hate him... We should be stern and express our deep concern about attacks on minorities, hate by BLMs against Asians...ask XingBiden and aunti Komala to ask their OmBambi to denounce BLM attacks on ALMs!
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Manish_Sharma »

TWITTER

https://twitter.com/Chellaney/status/13 ... 10913?s=19
@Chellaney:

U.S. Navy loves to unilaterally conduct operations in other countries' EEZs to challenge their allegedly “excessive maritime claims." But how does the U.S. react when a foreign navy conducts military activities inside or near its EEZ? Here's one example: https://t.co/FWs0Pb2zrG
_______________________

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/12/us/r ... FWs0Pb2zrG

Are We Getting Invaded?’ U.S. Boats Faced Russian Aggression Near Alaska

Russia has escalated its provocative encounters in the North Pacific this year, harassing boats in U.S. fishing waters and sending bombers toward Alaska’s shores.

ANCHORAGE — The crew of the Bristol Leader was laying out its long cod-catching line well within U.S. fishing territory in the Bering Sea when a voice crackled over the VHF radio and began issuing commands: The ship was in danger, it said, and needed to move.

The warnings, coming in a mixture of Russian and accented English from a plane buzzing overhead, grew more specific and more urgent. There was a submarine nearby, the voice said. Missiles were being fired. Leave the area.

Other U.S. fishing vessels that were scattered over 100 miles of open sea were getting similar messages. Capt. Steve Elliott stood dumbfounded on the trawler Vesteraalen as three Russian warships came barreling through, barking orders of their own. On the ship Blue North, commands from a Russian plane led Capt. David Anderson to contact the U.S. Coast Guard, wondering how to protect his crew of 27.

“It was frightening, to say the least,” Captain Anderson said. “The Coast Guard’s response was: Just do what they say.”

The Russian military operations in August inside the U.S. economic zone off the coast of Alaska were the latest in a series of escalated encounters across the North Pacific and the Arctic, where the retreat of polar ice continues to draw new commercial and military traffic. This year, the Russian military has driven a new nuclear-powered icebreaker straight to the North Pole, dropped paratroopers into a high-Arctic archipelago to perform a mock battle and repeatedly flown bombers to the edge of U.S. airspace.

As seas warmed by climate change open new opportunities for oil exploration and trade routes, the U.S. Coast Guard now finds itself monitoring a range of new activity: cruise ships promising a voyage through waters few have ever seen, research vessels trying to understand the changing landscape, tankers carrying new gas riches, and shipping vessels testing new passageways that sailors of centuries past could only dream of.

Russia’s operations in the Arctic have meant a growing military presence at America’s northern door. Rear Adm. Matthew T. Bell Jr., the commander of the Coast Guard district that oversees Alaska, said it was not a surprise to see Russian forces operating in the Bering Sea over the summer, but “the surprise was how aggressive they got on our side of the maritime boundary line.”

In the air, U.S. jets in Alaska typically scramble to intercept about a half-dozen approaching Russian aircraft a year, outliers on the long-range nuclear bomber patrols that Russia resumed in 2007. But this year that number has risen to 14 — on pace to set a record since the Cold War era. In the most recent case, last month, the United States responded to the approach of two Russian bombers and two Russian fighters that came within 30 nautical miles of Alaskan shores.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Mort Walker »

The Xiden administration is intent on ruining relations. At this point they should mostly be ignored and focus should be on trade and humoring them on environment. If Russia invades Ukraine, India needs to be quiet and let the US sort out another European war.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Manish_Sharma »

https://tfiglobalnews.com/2021/04/09/to ... ssion=true

To placate China, US violates Indian waters – A grave mistake 


By Sohil Sinha 

The US Navy carried out a Freedom of Navigation Operation (FOPNOP) near India’s Lakshadweep Islands on April 7th. About 130 nautical miles west of the Lakshadweep Islands, the USS John Paul Jones, an Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyer, claimed navigational rights and freedoms.

India has been exercising control of its EEZ since its independence. Therefore, the actions of the Biden administration to intrude into Indian sovereign territory is a huge mistake and could create huge problems for the Quad. While it should be noted that the United States, even during the Trump administration, had been exercising the FONOP’s inside Indian territorial waters, however, the timing of the action and scrutinising India’s claim has been unprecedented. The US navy immediately put out a statement that can cause a diplomatic row between New Delhi and Washington. However, it seems that this is exactly what the Biden administration aims to do.

The sudden urge to highlight an existing yet generally downplayed disagreement with India on ‘Freedom of Navigation’ in Indian waters has sinister connotations. It weakens the Quad, weakens India’s position to resist China and more importantly vindicates China’s position in the South China Sea as Washington has carried out the same manoeuvre in Indian territorial waters. This either means, Indian claims in the Indian ocean are disputed or the US is a belligerent power, either way, the Biden administration has sailed itself right into China’s port.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Mort Walker »

Agree that this has negative impact on bilateral relations and the Quad. The US needs China for keeping consumer prices low and keeping share hold profits high or risk the wrath of the voter. The pieces of the puzzle will be coming together in the next year or two.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by yensoy »

Quad Error Demonstradum
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by hnair »

This FONOP thingy by USS John Paul sounds like something an angry Karen in State Department or DoD would order, as revenge for "Howdy Modi" and the bonhomie with the previous POTUS. Some kind of embarrassment for PM Modi, which will show the PM that Biden's DC wont forget. There are no easy explanations for the gloating publicity around this from the US and the setback it will have for PM Modi in convincing a reluctant Delhi establishment to trust US.

The commanders of USN probably stepped on eggshells, when they quietly did the bare minimum needed to execute the FONOPS - a quiet passthrough with no weapons live etc on their side. If there was some live fire etc that would have given New Delhi even less chance to explain to the Indian public on what is the point of supporting US, even if it is against China.

Dumb timing
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Suraj »

India is getting to the state where it will simply need the means to assert its might, not simply complain and beg for it. China went through a protracted period of this. I think actions like these simply enable resolve in New Delhi to build a maritime strength that has the ability to progressively demonstrate capability, exercise strength, and in the long term, assert dominance. Strength has only ever respected strength, regardless of whether the other party is a buddy or enemy.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Rudradev »

The GOTUS is shot through at ALL levels with pro-Beijing operatives.

This was an inevitable consequence of everything that's been going on since the Nixon era. It was massively reinforced during the Clinton era (with entry of China into the WTO, plus the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act, which paved the way for corporations and financial services firms to acquire FAR more influence over GOTUS policymaking than ever before). It carried on unhindered during the GW Bush and Obama Presidencies.

By the present moment, the pro-China tilt in American babudom has become institutionalized over two generations.

Not only that-- but Beijing has done everything in its power to leverage the situation for more and more advantages. From its patronage of American universities to the profit-making opportunities it affords to various American corporations, especially things like Hollywood and Sports Leagues (NBA etc) which straddle both the commercial and the cultural spheres, the Chinese have seized every opportunity to make and then widen their inroads of influence. Graduates of those universities, who moreover grew up in a culture saturated by Hollywood, television, and sports, now staff multiple positions up and down the hierarchy of US think tanks and government departments.

And all that doesn't even take into account the individuals who have directly been courted and induced by Beijing to serve as its clandestine agents in the GOTUS. Meanwhile the comparable infrastructure supporting Indian interests within the US is Zip, Zero, Nothing. Only what happens at a few think tanks and official/semi-official diplomatic circuits. Maybe we can boast of as much influence in Washington as Poland, Colombia, or Malaysia.

The aftermath of (Trump + COVID) is as anti-China as the US is ever likely to get without an actual hot war. Yet even now there are many people who hark back to the G2 vision of Madeline Halfbright and her ilk. This is the kind of person who itches to sabotage grand ideas like the Quad by throwing spanners into the works from behind the anonymity of a babu's desk. If it is any consolation, they frequently target Japan (particularly when governed by nationalistic leaders like Shinzo Abe) and Taiwan as well. They are also responsible for boosting dovish South Korean leaders (like the present Moon Jae-In) over those more disposed to take a nationalistic, hardened stance against Beijing (such as his predecessor Park Geun-Hye).

It remains to be seen if the US Govt is influenced by these people at top policymaking levels (Biden et al) rather than at the levels of sabotaging existing US-India initiatives from within the works. I guess we will find out when the S400s arrive.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by srikandan »

One possibility is that this the US monkey balancing India and China -- all the fireworks between Blinken and the chinese envoy in Alaska could have been just for show, with back door discussions going a different way.

If Chinese mouthpieces berate India not to side with the US, they are likely to have done the same about India with the US.

By displaying hostility to Indian interests, it indicates to the Chinese that India and the US are not allied, notwithstanding all the QUAD BS which discussed "vaccines", allegedly. This would be in line with what Rudradev stated:
The GOTUS is shot through at ALL levels with pro-Beijing operatives.

By the present moment, the pro-China tilt in American babudom has become institutionalized over two generations.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by g.sarkar »

https://www.rediff.com/news/report/pent ... 210410.htm
Pentagon defends US ship asserting navigational rights in Indian EEZ
By Lalit K Jha, April 10, 2021

The Pentagon has said that its Navy ship conducting navigational rights within India's exclusive economic zone (EEZ) without the permission of New Delhi was consistent with international law.
India has lodged a strong protest against such a move by the United States regarding the passage of US Navy ship John Paul Jones through its EEZ.
"I can tell you is that the USS John Paul Jones, a Navy destroyer, asserted navigational rights and freedoms in the vicinity of the Republic of the Maldives by conducting innocent passage through its territorial sea in normal operations within its exclusive economic zone without requesting prior permission," Pentagon spokesperson John Kirby told reporters on Friday.
......
Gautam
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by srikandan »

Isn't it precious that the US, that has not ratified international treaties like UNCLOS is talking about "being consistent with international law" when it intentionally violates the space of "allies and partners"? The neo-colonial nazis in the US State dept. and DoD must think only white people have brains, and the rest are all morons. The chinese full-body orifice examination of the US diplomats seems to be the right way in dealing with these racist "woke" US oiseaules that want to bring freedom and democracy to the world.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by kit »

srikandan wrote:The chinese full-body orifice examination of the US diplomats seems to be the right way in dealing with these racist "woke" US oiseaules that want to bring freedom and democracy to the world.
Never thought i would say this , but seems like we will cheer the chinese when they do the fonops up the US !!

https://images.staticjw.com/kul/7466/sc ... -49-pm.jpg
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Mort Walker »

Rudradev wrote:The GOTUS is shot through at ALL levels with pro-Beijing operatives.
Not entirely and not all agencies. Most of the US government consists of civil service and the PRC operatives are generally appointed secretaries, under secretaries and their assistants. These people change from administration to administration. Beyond that, Senior Executive Service are also civil service, but they have tow the administration's policy or get fired because they aren't protected by OPM rules. There is enough public information as to who have been appointed as undersecretaries and assistants, but mostly these people are campaign donor or fundraisers.

Agencies which have the most PRC influence are: Agriculture, Commerce, Justice, State, and Treasury. There are also appointed pro PRC persons in Energy and Transportation, but to a lesser extent. However, Defense and Homeland Security have the least of such people. Intelligence agencies, it varies. The CIA, I would say yes, but other intelligence agencies I'm not sure about as these guys are basically battling business units as an analogy to the corporate world. The problem with GOTUS, regardless of administration, is that appointed positions are party fundraisers and insiders who are the least qualified by experience or education. Most of the time liberal arts degrees followed by law school or business school, but never any real world experience. They are full of incompetent duffers, and that is probably what keeps the world safe.

In the case of the USS John Paul near Lakwadeep, more than likely the Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) was instructed to carry out the FONOPS by SECDEF and SECNAV. The decision came about of a committee consisting of at least the SECDEF, NSA and SoS. It isn't clear who else are in the decision making process as Xiden himself is mentally unfit, but a very high probability that the DNI, Avril Haines, and WH Chief of Staff, Ron Klain, were in on this as Klain is running the government. Now this wasn't thought about in great detail (less than 2 minutes), but more than likely, let's teach those "fascists" a lesson. I don't believe Kamala Harris or anyone in the VP's office were involved in this is, as it is a routine operation for POTUS office, but the decision was most likely taken while she was out of town more than a week ago.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by arshyam »

kit wrote:
srikandan wrote:The chinese full-body orifice examination of the US diplomats seems to be the right way in dealing with these racist "woke" US oiseaules that want to bring freedom and democracy to the world.
Never thought i would say this , but seems like we will cheer the chinese when they do the fonops up the US !!
There is a difference between our position and China's, let's not conflate the two and unnecessarily handover a moral boost to the Chinese.

Our EEZ claim is around our own shores (mainland and island territories), which is well understood and not disputed by anybody else. We even settled some disputes with BD under the UNCLOS guidelines, and don't have any issues with other neighbours except the pakis. Whereas the contrast with the Chinese position couldn't be starker - they produced some "old" looking map with nine-dashes around the Indo-China sea and claimed the entire sea all the way up to Indonesia(!) as sovereign Chinese waters. So, in effect, China's position is that any waters east of Singapore is theirs, and allows a narrow 10nm or so sliver of water for the rim states in the area. There is no provision for such a unilateral claim anywhere in the UNCLOS. Naturally, this has got the hackles up of the rim states like Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Philippines, etc., making the entire Indo-China sea (or East Sea, North Nantuna sea, West Philippine sea) disputed. Heck, even the name is disputed!

Net net, FONOPS in disputed waters in support of a bunch of countries against a bully is one thing, whereas the one in Indian waters is an entirely different kettle of fish. Publicly announcing it with a haughty tone basing it on a law they have not signed themselves is something even more.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by a_bharat »

I hope GoI takes steps to at least cause major inconvenience to the gora (Americans in particular) diplomatic staff working in India. After the Devayani Khobragade's incident, GoI took some small steps such as removing barricades and extra security staff at US embassy in Delhi. I am sure these would have been rolled back long ago. Now is the time to take more such steps and not rollback after token gestures from the goras. Be tough with them and make it clear that they don't deserve any extra privileges that are not accorded to Indian diplomatic staff working in their countries. India should make it clear to US that offending India would have consequences for them. I hope GoI's strategy is not "people will forget in a few days".
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by srikandan »

arshyam: Our EEZ claim is around our own shores (mainland and island territories), which is well understood and not disputed by anybody else.
The whole point with the recent US intrusions is precisely because they refuse to acknowledge this claim. Just claiming that India's "good behavior" in following "international laws" that its adversaries like the US and China refuse to follow, makes India a better country, seems a bit silly. Maybe India's lack of hard naval power to match the US means India has no options other than ignore US warmongering targeting India.
THE US Navy’s controversial public statement on its freedom of navigation operation (FONOP) in India’s Exclusive Economic Zone echoes its previous statements as per a new Standard Operating Procedure beginning November 2020
This is all new SOP starting a few days after Mike Pompeo's visit to India, where India signed up agreements with the US. So this was all in the works even as Indian newspaper headlines claimed "India and the US cement defence ties". Defence ties with the US are a bad idea.
The US Navy’s Seventh Fleet issued statements after nine Freedom of Navigation operations in which it challenged “excessive maritime claims” made by allies and adversaries alike — Russia, Japan, China, Vietnam, Philippines, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Maldives and India.
Looks like the US Navy has deliberately violated the EEZ of Srilanka, Maldives, and Sri Lanka, all in the past year -- this all seems like dog whistling to the chinese that the US is not picking on China, because it is picking on all countries in the Indian and Pacific Ocean. Also suggests that there is no reason for India to work with the US in this QUAD or any grouping involving the US, and signing the agreements allowing US Navy to use Indian ports was a mistake. Hopefully one that can be corrected. China and the US seem to be at the same level, when it comes to warmongering belligerence,
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Rudradev »

Mort Walker wrote: Beyond that, Senior Executive Service are also civil service, but they have tow the administration's policy or get fired because they aren't protected by OPM rules
Actually, that reminds me. The OPM was hacked last year by the Chinese. Meaning essentially that the Chinese have a file with the detailed personal information of just about every single employee of any significance working for the GOTUS. All the more reason to believe this could be the work of a GOTUS official compromised by the CPC, or perhaps even a network of them across multiple departments.

I would be more inclined to believe this was a top-level (SoS, SECDEF) policy initiative to "teach the Fascist Modi a lesson"... as opposed to a saboteur move from within the ranks... if there were some obvious rationale for the timing of such a "lesson". It isn't as if we just did a Balakot last week or anything.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by srikandan »

India not assisting hyooman rights in Myanmar is the only recent event that could have raised hackles with the Xiden crowd. It is hilarious that these tools proclaimed loudly as they started their tenure saying shyte like this
The foreign policy of the Joe Biden administration emphasizes repairing the U.S.'s alliances, which had been damaged under the Trump administration, and returning the U.S. to a "position of trusted leadership" among world democracies to counter challenges from Russia and China
They only meant alliances with ex-colonial powers in the EU that are democracies when they meant "trusted leadership among world democracies" seeing as to their belligerence towards non white Asian countries listed in the Indian Express report. And they have not even started their tenure. These racist "woke" shytes want to bring freedom and democracy to everyone who is not white, and they are willing to go warmongering against the democracies that they want to lead. Very droll.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Rudradev »

I had another thought... the Maldives.

The US cannot tolerate India standing up for her interests in her own neighborhood. It never has been able to, and never will.

Rajiv Gandhi, for all his faults, and despite being a member of the die-nasty, got a few things right on regional security. Sumdorong Chu, Op Chequerboard, and numerous critical initiatives in Siachen took shape on his watch. So did an Indian Naval intervention in 1988 to restore the rightfully elected govt after a coup attempt in the Maldives.

Indira Gandhi was also hated by the Americans for her willingness to assert the Pax Indica across the subcontinent. After the Bangladesh war, the US made sure to undo any benefits that might accrue to India. The assassination of Mujib by Zia ur Rehman was the product of a CIA-backed military coup.

Notably, Indira Gandhi also greenlit the original Op Meghdoot deployment to Siachen in April 1984... another key initiative with regard to India's regional interests.

6 months later Indira Gandhi was assassinated. Rajiv Gandhi, likewise, was assassinated in 1991.

From 1991 until 2009, a series of minority coalition governments could do absolutely nothing to secure India's regional interests. With the sole exception of the Pokhran tests, every other security measure India took was entirely reactive and 100% defensive. From Kargil to an endless series of COIN operations, New Delhi made sure never to cross the border... not even a temporary cease-fire line such as the LOC, which our adversaries routinely violated. From J&K to Punjab to the Northeast, to even the Red Corridor in her hinterland states, India was always and invariably fighting on her home turf. Humiliations emanated continuously from our near-abroad... among them IC814, the Parliament Attack, and 26/11, without meeting any response at all.

With UPA2 in 2009 this became worse still. The ongoing paralysis of security policy was compounded by deliberately anti-national initiatives, such as the bartering away of Indian interests at Sharm-el-Shaikh while bogies of 'Saffron Terrorism' were concocted to justify treating jihadis with kid gloves. Ironically this happened under the aegis of Rajiv Gandhi's own wife.

The Americans were perfectly fine with the 1991-2013 state of affairs: an India of hapless coalition governments perpetually on the defensive, with neither the will nor the capability to seek "regional hegemony". But the Chinese were even more delighted. Each step India took in retreat away from her own rightful sphere of influence opened up more space for China to expand into. That's how a string of pearls began to tighten in India's immediate environs.


Then came Modi sarkar-- our first majority GOI since Rajiv Gandhi. And with it came Uri, Doklam, Balakot, the Article 370 revocation, and Galwan. In addition, not quite as headline-grabbing, came many forceful though subtle diplomatic initiatives to firm up Indian interests throughout the neighborhood. For the first time in 25 years, these initiatives began to be pursued with the determination, skill, and alacrity of a nation whose policymaking apparatus was intensely focused on the vital importance of regional security. They spanned from Nepal to Sri Lanka to Bangladesh to... yes... the Maldives.

Remember Abdulla Yameen Gayoom, the Chinese stooge? Sonia Sarkar had been quite happy with his color revolution against President Nasheed in 2012... a coup timed conveniently to coincide with Hillary Clinton's "Arab Spring" experiments, interestingly enough. Yet somehow in 2018, without India sending a single navy ship anywhere near the island chain, Yameen was replaced by Ibrahim Solih... a man far more reasonable and sensitive to our concerns.

The USA was perhaps unhappy about this. It has long been an article of faith among the Clinton Democrats that they can succeed in building other Pakistans to do America's bidding in South Asia... with regard to both India & China. So what if the original Pakistan had been wrecked beyond redemption? It had done just fine from 1947 until 2001. Why couldn't it just be replaced with other enlightened moderate Islamic states under American patronage?

One candidate for this position was of course Bangladesh. Hillary Clinton went out of her way to promote the jihad-pasand Khalida Zia (whose husband's coup in 1975 the Americans had also choreographed) as an alternative to the relatively pro-India Shaikh Hasina.

Another candidate for Alt-Pakistan appears to have been the Maldives. Not very big, but strategically very useful to have under Washington's direct control (rather than dependent on the Hindoo Fascist regime in New Delhi).

Maybe something is being planned there. Another "color revolution" perhaps, the same as in 2012. This time intended to elevate a Yameen Gayoom-type stooge who is more attuned to Washington than to Beijing.

And maybe the John Paul Jones sailed past to warn us away from interfering... as a reminder that although the Maldives may lie in India's back yard, India should not presume to question the supreme dominance of American influence there, now or in the future.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Rudradev »

If it's any consolation, don't take it personally. Under Biden the US is back to living by it's old unspoken dictum of "Vassals first, allies later". Non-white &/or non-Christian states had better govern themselves according to Washington's preferences... I mean, standards of freedom and democracy. Or else.

MBS & the Saudis are feeling even more heat than we are. So is Netanyahu in Israel, whose domestic political opponents the Biden government's mouthpieces openly back. MBZ in UAE is the only fox wily enough to have remained under the radar of Biden's virtue-signaling onslaught. So maybe watching in humble silence while the USS John Paul Jones comes and urinates in India's backyard isn't all that bad when seen in context.

Meanwhile we see Washington blessing righteous color revolutions in Myanmar, engaging in renewed confrontation with Russia in Ukraine, and fawning abjectly over the Iranians. All the while claiming to be "tough on China". Business as usual, folks.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by arshyam »

BAU indeed. Or, as I maintain in my circles, Xi won the US election last year, and we are seeing it play out in real life.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by NRao »

Rudradev wrote:
Mort Walker wrote: Beyond that, Senior Executive Service are also civil service, but they have tow the administration's policy or get fired because they aren't protected by OPM rules
Actually, that reminds me. The OPM was hacked last year by the Chinese. ..............
They hacked it long back (2013). Finger prints, scans, and anything in between - including civilians who scheduled the trips of nuke subs. The free security provided by GOTUS expires in 2023 - for that particular hack.

China has not managed to do much. Institutions in the US have caught up - at cost. So, WRT the hack (any) it does not mean much. The reason is rather simple: Wall Street. If China were to play mischief, US will act, and Wall Street will be at a loss. Wall Street is managing the "relationship" (Trump was an exception, with Biden things are back to normal, predictable).

China is very much aware of the value of Wall Street.
g.sarkar
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by g.sarkar »

Hacking and snooping is going on for a long time:
https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2020/ ... mNewsdog=1
CIA snooped on India, Pak via firm that sold encrypted communication devices: Report
CIA and West German intelligence agency joined hands to spy on 120 nations
Web Desk February 12, 2020

About 120 governments, including India, were snooped on by America's Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) in collaboration with German intelligence agency, BND, over half a century. At the heart of the US deceit, exposed in an investigative report by The Washington Post, is a company named Crypto AG, founded by a Russia-born Swiss national Boris Hagelin in 1940 and headquartered at Steinhausen in Switzerland.
From the 1950s, Crypto AG was the company that provided encrypted devices to governments around the world for safe and unintercepted communication to aid their militaries, diplomats and even spies. Documents indicate that more than 120 countries, including India, its rival Pakistan, Iran, Latin American nations and even Vatican used Crypto AG encryption equipment from the 1950s until the 2000s.
However, it now emerges that while Hagelin remained the face of Crypto for a very long time, the company was "secretly owned by the CIA in a highly classified partnership with West German intelligence". These spy agencies rigged the company’s devices so they could easily break the codes that countries used to send encrypted messages. "The most closely guarded secrets of the Cold War, is laid bare in a classified, comprehensive CIA history of the operation," The Post says in its report. The report was a joined project with ZDF, a German public broadcaster.
.....
Gautam
panduranghari
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by panduranghari »

China has quarrels with its neighbours. US is creating friction with nation states who are not overtly anti US.

Are both trying to say either you are with us or you are against us?

Its bad for the world as this will lead to war. A war which neither US nor China can afford. Its exactly what UQ wants. EU siding with China for commerce does not mean they won't back US.

The high priests of American elites like Larry Summers who opposed furlough payments for struggling businesses due to Chinese Virus as it may spark inflation is speaking exactly what the head of PBoC Yi Gang is saying of rising risk of inflation.

They would both want war to control the inflation as their normal tools are not working. Last throw of dice is negative 5% interest rates.

These seems like war drums to me.
Manish_Sharma
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Rudradev wrote:
If it's any consolation, don't take it personally. Under Biden the US is back to living by it's old unspoken dictum of "Vassals first, allies later". Non-white &/or non-Christian states had better govern themselves according to Washington's preferences... I mean, standards of freedom and democracy. Or else.

MBS & the Saudis are feeling even more heat than we are. So is Netanyahu in Israel, whose domestic political opponents the Biden government's mouthpieces openly back. MBZ in UAE is the only fox wily enough to have remained under the radar of Biden's virtue-signaling onslaught.
https://twitter.com/InsightGL/status/13 ... 14946?s=19

TWITTER
@InsightGL writes:

@desertfox61I #IndianAirForce

-#US govt issues notification for sale of 8 F-16s to #Pakistan
-Unable to buy all 18 due "financing problem"
-I had written in my recent article, how US missteps sending wrong signals to allies
-This is 1 such foolish move
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/trend ... ssion=true

US govt issues notification for sale of F-16s to Pakistan

Total cost 700 million
NRao
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by NRao »

g.sarkar wrote:Hacking and snooping is going on for a long time:
https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2020/ ... mNewsdog=1
CIA snooped on India, Pak via firm that sold encrypted communication devices: Report
CIA and West German intelligence agency joined hands to spy on 120 nations
Web Desk February 12, 2020

About 120 governments, including India, were snooped on by America's Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) in collaboration with German intelligence agency, BND, over half a century. At the heart of the US deceit, exposed in an investigative report by The Washington Post, is a company named Crypto AG, founded by a Russia-born Swiss national Boris Hagelin in 1940 and headquartered at Steinhausen in Switzerland.
From the 1950s, Crypto AG was the company that provided encrypted devices to governments around the world for safe and unintercepted communication to aid their militaries, diplomats and even spies. Documents indicate that more than 120 countries, including India, its rival Pakistan, Iran, Latin American nations and even Vatican used Crypto AG encryption equipment from the 1950s until the 2000s.
However, it now emerges that while Hagelin remained the face of Crypto for a very long time, the company was "secretly owned by the CIA in a highly classified partnership with West German intelligence". These spy agencies rigged the company’s devices so they could easily break the codes that countries used to send encrypted messages. "The most closely guarded secrets of the Cold War, is laid bare in a classified, comprehensive CIA history of the operation," The Post says in its report. The report was a joined project with ZDF, a German public broadcaster.
.....
Gautam
The issue is not about snooping or hacking - that is the past. It is what China has/will do with the data she has on hand.

How China Uses Stolen US Personnel Data

This is not a game. *Your* or the info of your family member is part of the hack. When someone sneezes in some corner of the world and the email inbox has an email - for the rest of your life - it is a very serious matter. China does have the data to alter lives. The cost to counter is enormous, Stealing F-35 info is relatively small.
Cain Marko
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Cain Marko »

Rudradev wrote:Meanwhile we see Washington blessing righteous color revolutions in Myanmar, engaging in renewed confrontation with Russia in Ukraine, and fawning abjectly over the Iranians. All the while claiming to be "tough on China". Business as usual, folks.
If I was a betting man, I'd say that a new friendship deal between the US and China is about to be announced - and backdoor finishing touches are being given. Business as usual indeed - a nice spanking by Wang and Co., made US see the light.
NRao
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by NRao »

Cain Marko wrote:
Rudradev wrote:Meanwhile we see Washington blessing righteous color revolutions in Myanmar, engaging in renewed confrontation with Russia in Ukraine, and fawning abjectly over the Iranians. All the while claiming to be "tough on China". Business as usual, folks.
If I was a betting man, I'd say that a new friendship deal between the US and China is about to be announced - and backdoor finishing touches are being given. Business as usual indeed - a nice spanking by Wang and Co., made US see the light.
In that case, one might as well shut the DoD.

There is a distinct possibility that there is a gap between DoD and whoever is dealing with this friendly whatever.

Like the Intel, the DoD has a life of its own. Ask Trump.

However, given the current eco situation it is possible that China has negotiated a deal with Wall Street, signed off by the WH. After all Dimon has been very active recently. But, DoD is very formidable. They will ask and get their pound of flesh.
Rudradev
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Rudradev »


@desertfox61I #IndianAirForce

-#US govt issues notification for sale of 8 F-16s to #Pakistan
-Unable to buy all 18 due "financing problem"
-I had written in my recent article, how US missteps sending wrong signals to allies
-This is 1 such foolish move
Deleting my earlier observations. This Tweet may not be accurate & seems to reference an outdated article from 2016.
Last edited by Rudradev on 12 Apr 2021 04:46, edited 1 time in total.
arshyam
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by arshyam »

NRao wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:
If I was a betting man, I'd say that a new friendship deal between the US and China is about to be announced - and backdoor finishing touches are being given. Business as usual indeed - a nice spanking by Wang and Co., made US see the light.
In that case, one might as well shut the DoD.

There is a distinct possibility that there is a gap between DoD and whoever is dealing with this friendly whatever.

Like the Intel, the DoD has a life of its own. Ask Trump.

However, given the current eco situation it is possible that China has negotiated a deal with Wall Street, signed off by the WH. After all Dimon has been very active recently. But, DoD is very formidable. They will ask and get their pound of flesh.
It suits the US to have an offensive (in rhetoric and posture, at least) DoD, while Foggy Bottom can, well, kiss the bottoms of the Chinese. That ensures the US does not put all its eggs in one basket - they'll even throw some crumbs at countries like India so as to retain some ascendancy over the Chinese. The latter would of course know that that's the extent of what the US will do, since they have an in into the heart of Washington now, so they'll play along for appearances' sake (after all, Xi has to pander to his image within the party) while making merry and growing their economy. In long run though, the US may come out the loser due to being too clever by half - as most democracies, it is hard to maintain a laser focus on long term initiatives, and sustained market access to US companies and Wall street for another generation would put paid to whatever assertion they tried under Trump. This strategy would also give birth to more half-assed ideas like the FONOPs announcement, pushing friendly countries farther away. In the meantime, the Chinese due to their one-party institutional continuity will keep an eye on the big picture while assiduously trying to become the middle kingdom they perceive themselves to be, and extract their pound of flesh one day.

As for India - be aware and watchful, stay within our own camp. No need to subscribe to anyone else's, we'll be fine by ourselves.
chetak
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by chetak »

Rudradev wrote:

@desertfox61I #IndianAirForce

-#US govt issues notification for sale of 8 F-16s to #Pakistan
-Unable to buy all 18 due "financing problem"
-I had written in my recent article, how US missteps sending wrong signals to allies
-This is 1 such foolish move
Biden sarkar has asked (again) for Pakistan's help to stabilize Afghanistan.

Pakis have agreed on the condition that they can resume terrorist attacks on India in J&K without fear of an Uri or Balakot type retaliation.

Hence the rush by Washington to supply (and finance) PAF's F-16 fleet. We shot one out of the sky in Feb 2019, so they're getting 8 (or perhaps 18) more at US taxpayers' expense. America is making sure the Pakistani terrorist enterprise has an effective deterrent against Indian retaliation.

We would be damn fools to proceed with this Quad nonsense, let alone delay taking delivery of the S400 batteries we've already paid for.
Indeed.

we need to maximize the narrative of our supreme national interest as being of the utmost imperative for India.

Less of QUAD and more of the S-400 is one way to go

QUAD is their narrative and the S-400 is ours.

The conflict, if any, lies only in the ameriki mind.

why mindlessly drink the ameriki cool aid when they are hell bent on exercising their so called options.
Rishi_Tri
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Rishi_Tri »

Storm in a tea cup I would say.

Next time someone is fishing off Lakshadweep, conveniently conduct a 'friendly missile' test close by to test inter forces operability. All shall be good.
Ambar
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Ambar »

Rudradev wrote:

@desertfox61I #IndianAirForce

-#US govt issues notification for sale of 8 F-16s to #Pakistan
-Unable to buy all 18 due "financing problem"
-I had written in my recent article, how US missteps sending wrong signals to allies
-This is 1 such foolish move
Biden sarkar has asked (again) for Pakistan's help to stabilize Afghanistan.

Pakis have agreed on the condition that they can resume terrorist attacks on India in J&K without fear of an Uri or Balakot type retaliation.

Hence the rush by Washington to supply (and finance) PAF's F-16 fleet. We shot one out of the sky in Feb 2019, so they're getting 8 (or perhaps 18) more at US taxpayers' expense. America is making sure the Pakistani terrorist enterprise has an effective deterrent against Indian retaliation.

We would be damn fools to proceed with this Quad nonsense, let alone delay taking delivery of the S400 batteries we've already paid for.
Even to a layman on the street after 20 yrs it must be clear that Afghanistan is ungovernable and Pakistan would love to keep Afghanistan unmanageable, unstable and ungovernable forever . Whatever the political biases of those in US DOS and DOD, if after having spent 20 yrs on the ground in Afghanistan , 2300 deaths and over a trillion dollars spent , if someone still believes Pakistan will usher in peace and stability in the region then they are either incompetent beyond belief or malicious or both.

What purpose does it serve supplying F16s to Pakistan and antagonizing India ?
How will Pakistan help US achieve its policy objectives in Afghanistan by arming Pakistan ?
How will it help a fast sinking Pakistan which spends much of its time borrowing from Paul to pay Peter get better economically by taking on even more debt to buy these jets ?

This decision along with the bizarre decision to freeze arms export to UAE and KSA last month, the strange schoolboyish like bullying tactics in the Alaska conference with the Chinese diplomats gives us a sense of policy paralysis in the new administration. They clearly seem to be overlooking the Iran-Syria-Qatar-Russia and Turkey-Pakistan-Malaysia-China axis and are instead targeting friendly countries just because these countries got along well with the previous administration. It is in a way similar to the shooting oneself in the foot policy adapted in the southern border which is now witnessing unprecedented number of illegal immigrants entering. Interesting times ahead ...
srikandan
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by srikandan »

Ambar: What purpose does it serve supplying F16s to Pakistan and antagonizing India ?
How will Pakistan help US achieve its policy objectives in Afghanistan by arming Pakistan ?

None of it makes sense if you assume US's interest is in stabilizing afghanisthan -- it all makes perfect sense if you assume US's main interest is in keeping Afghanisthan destabilized.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Rohit_K »

Manish_Sharma wrote: TWITTER
@InsightGL writes:
@desertfox61I #IndianAirForce

-#US govt issues notification for sale of 8 F-16s to #Pakistan
-Unable to buy all 18 due "financing problem"
-I had written in my recent article, how US missteps sending wrong signals to allies
-This is 1 such foolish move
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/trend ... ssion=true

US govt issues notification for sale of F-16s to Pakistan

Total cost 700 million
Original tweet has been deleted: https://twitter.com/InsightGL/status/13 ... 2866514946

The money control article was FIRST PUBLISHED: JAN 1, 2016 12:00 AM

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/trend ... ssion=true

Don't know what Twitter handles get from peddling and repackaging old news.
Manish_Sharma
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Manish_Sharma »

TWITTER

@Rajivmessage:

QUAD DISRUPTION? US Navy ships claiming the ocean near Lakshadweep is international waters. Suppose China sends navy there citing the US argument to assert its own rights. What will that do to Quad? Did USA think through? India must ask.

https://twitter.com/RajivMessage/status ... 12773?s=19
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