India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5339
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Supratik » 17 Mar 2018 20:18

US is just one destination. 2017 figures for emigrants is 31 million. We need at least 100 million more. I say spread the curry around.

csaurabh
BRFite
Posts: 710
Joined: 07 Apr 2008 15:07

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby csaurabh » 17 Mar 2018 21:31

We don't need more migration to the US, especially high tech/skilled people. We need them to stay back at home and develop our industries- which are genuinely ours, not MNC outsourcing. Yes, GOI and Indian society need to step up to it but we are moving in right direction.

Quite apart from anything else, the fact that all our top tier people choose to leave and settle abroad is a huge psychological and morale problem for those folks staying back in India. I don't think there could be anything more insulting to the Indian nation or the Indian people.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5339
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Supratik » 17 Mar 2018 22:22

Only 5% to at most 10% of those leaving can be called brain-drain. The rest are just skilled labor who form a small percent of Indians.

hanumadu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3976
Joined: 11 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby hanumadu » 18 Mar 2018 05:33

Agree. If only we could educate those remaining in India property ...

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 62476
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Singha » 18 Mar 2018 08:06

And what is the effect on india of losing the top10% annually for a few decades? The top 1% have a disproportionate impact on anything so it has had its impact.... murica knows this very well and the welcome mat is always out for such people who typically never return. We can find scores of them in the highest levels of academia and r&d there. To argue that it benefits india is a false argument

VKumar
BRFite
Posts: 409
Joined: 15 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Mumbai,India

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby VKumar » 18 Mar 2018 08:07

hanumadu wrote:Agree. If only we could educate those remaining in India property ...


Not only educating properly ( for example, such that students can attempt exams without need to copy, diverse streams of education and
qualification ) but also providing suitable employment or suitable entrepreneurial ecosystem, which means better ease of business, less of bureaucracy and easier access to finance/risk capital especially for micro enterprises. Better Law & Order, protection to property both tangible and intangible. Easier commute to work, health systems and so on.

In other words create an environment where the citizens find work & living conditions of their choice within India and so are not tempted to go overseas, unless for great benefit.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6957
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby JE Menon » 18 Mar 2018 11:03

I am for full unfettered emigration to all corners of the world. First, there is no way on earth such numbers (i.e. those wanting to emigrate) will be accepted by other countries. Second, even if 300 million are accepted in other countries (about 25% of our population), there will still be enough brain and brawn at home to take care of matters.

Further, can someone point out to me an actual verifiable problem caused by this so called "brain-drain"?

Now imagine the world 30 years after those 300 million have emigrated, or much more realistically even 15 million.

Serendipitous bonus: The parasitically-employed and already-fattened Lutyens and the better-connected leftist elites will probably go with them as well, and will dissipate their negative energies uselessly amidst an unwelcoming and dismissive society - while the intellectual stables at home will be auto-cleansed.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5339
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Supratik » 18 Mar 2018 13:49

Singha, IMO 95% of those emigrating are skilled or unskilled labor. They are actually doing Indians a favour by minimizing competition for jobs at home. Sure it is a loss with skilled labor but it can be easily compensated by creating more skilled labor at home. Those that are migrating are only a fraction of those staying back. The real brain drain is the top 5%. I read somewhere that Hargobind Khorana had come back to India but could not find a job and returned to I believe Cambridge with a fellowship. This story clearly points out that problem i.e. there are not enough opportunities to retain the top 5%. They have ideas which need an ecosystem and if you cannot provide it they will migrate to where they can implement their ideas. Till recently R&D environment in India was pathetic. So unless you improve the system just crying over brain drain is a waste of energy. If you provide the right ecosystem those who don't have an attraction for western lands will stay back. Classic example is Japan. Most of my Japanese colleagues would come to the US, learn whatever they wanted to learn and then go back to Japan because in Japan they have the ecosystem where they can implement their ideas. Only a fraction would stay back. If you create similar system in India some will come back.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5339
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Supratik » 18 Mar 2018 14:00

A classic example of brain retention is ISRO. Due to restrictions most Indian space scientists and technologists do not have the right opportunities in US or Europe. So the majority of the best brains stay back in India. ISRO provides them with an ecosystem comparable with the best in the world. This has propelled ISRO and India to be a leading power in space. You need to create similar ecosystems in other fields.

ashish raval
BRFite
Posts: 1365
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 00:49
Location: London
Contact:

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ashish raval » 18 Mar 2018 16:20

What ecosystem do you need to start a)Google b) Facebook c) Whatsapp and d)Twitter e) Microsoft ?

Ecosystem = Garage !!

Ecosystem is only required when ideas require large capital to implement e.g. Amazon, Apple, Qualcomm or Broadcom. There are ideas which can start from nothing and builds ecosystem around it. The fact is we need ecosystem to breed ideas which is lacking in India because people are pessimistic that they dont work.

schinnas
BRFite
Posts: 1283
Joined: 11 Jun 2009 09:44

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby schinnas » 18 Mar 2018 16:37

Amazon was also pretty much started in garage selling only limited selection of books to begin with.

It takes courage, apetite for risk and perseverance with the vision.

schinnas
BRFite
Posts: 1283
Joined: 11 Jun 2009 09:44

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby schinnas » 18 Mar 2018 16:47

There is a strong ecosystem in India now to pursue research in all aspects of fundemental sciences and engineering areas.

In fact, many PhD students in IISc are sponsor3d by industry and given a stipend of RS 75,000 to 1 lakh per month, allowances for attending conferences, top of the line laptops, and other research materials and high paying internship opportunities.

With the recent budget, govt is also making this available to qualified PhD students in all top research institutions in India.

The fact is there is enough industry demand for researchers and quality PhDs in India. The only reason brain drain happens now is because of craze for living in a foreign land. Hopefully, the best and braightest in the upcoming generations will shed our colonial inferiority complex and choose to remain in India out of choice.

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4377
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Neshant » 18 Mar 2018 20:05

schinnas wrote:There is a strong ecosystem in India now to pursue research in all aspects of fundemental sciences and engineering areas.

In fact, many PhD students in IISc are sponsor3d by industry and given a stipend of RS 75,000 to 1 lakh per month, allowances for attending conferences, top of the line laptops, and other research materials and high paying internship opportunities.

With the recent budget, govt is also making this available to qualified PhD students in all top research institutions in India.

The fact is there is enough industry demand for researchers and quality PhDs in India. The only reason brain drain happens now is because of craze for living in a foreign land. Hopefully, the best and braightest in the upcoming generations will shed our colonial inferiority complex and choose to remain in India out of choice.


Unless there is opportunity for R&D within India, the brain drain will continue.

Western countries basis for R&D has been their military industrial complex, aerospace..etc industries.

But since IAF, Army insist on purchasing foreign made weapons designed by foreign scientists and engineers at huge cost to the country, effectively India subsidizes foreign R&D at it's own expense.

Why would any local company be stupid enough to invest in military aerospace when they have seen how difficult it has been to get the IAF to induct the Tejas in even modest numbers e.g 350 aircraft. (which barely covers program costs).

Keep up this trend of endless foreign purchases and India will fall even further behind technologically.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5339
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Supratik » 18 Mar 2018 20:34

I am talking about R&D not google/whatsapp. Without basic and applied science these things won't work. Things are much better in India now but nowhere close to advanced countries. It will take time.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2170
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby abhik » 18 Mar 2018 23:50

Supratik wrote:A classic example of brain retention is ISRO. Due to restrictions most Indian space scientists and technologists do not have the right opportunities in US or Europe. So the majority of the best brains stay back in India. ISRO provides them with an ecosystem comparable with the best in the world. This has propelled ISRO and India to be a leading power in space. You need to create similar ecosystems in other fields.

I hope you are aware that ISRO gets only a negligible % of their people from the IITs, which is allegedly where the best engineering/science minds are trained.

csaurabh
BRFite
Posts: 710
Joined: 07 Apr 2008 15:07

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby csaurabh » 19 Mar 2018 07:24

Neshant wrote:
Unless there is opportunity for R&D within India, the brain drain will continue.

Western countries basis for R&D has been their military industrial complex, aerospace..etc industries.

But since IAF, Army insist on purchasing foreign made weapons designed by foreign scientists and engineers at huge cost to the country, effectively India subsidizes foreign R&D at it's own expense.

Why would any local company be stupid enough to invest in military aerospace when they have seen how difficult it has been to get the IAF to induct the Tejas in even modest numbers e.g 350 aircraft. (which barely covers program costs).

Keep up this trend of endless foreign purchases and India will fall even further behind technologically.


You hit the nail on the head!
Keep in mind it is not only the design and manufacturing of the aeroplane or weapon system. There is an entire ecosystem/supply chain for all the components/tools/utilities required for doing it which also need to be designed and engineered ( Unless you are importing kit and doing screwdriver assembly ).

panduranghari
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3724
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby panduranghari » 19 Mar 2018 14:42

Neshant wrote:
Unless there is opportunity for R&D within India, the brain drain will continue.

Western countries basis for R&D has been their military industrial complex, aerospace..etc industries.


Another anecdotal observation - My SHQ doing her PhD. commented that the people doing PhD. or post doctoral fellows in the university in the UQ where she is based, are usually 2nd or 3rd class students. Even in the UQ, the faculties like Medicine, Engineering tend to attract the cream almost akin to India. The difference is made by those better students who also want to later pursue research opportunities which the universities make available. Many such students eventually find openings in teaching which helps generate a new ideas and better quality research. The money spent is quite sizeable. I think this can be replicated and will hopefully be replicated in India is many other faculties just like ISRO has done it as mentioned earlier.

Image

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5339
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Supratik » 19 Mar 2018 20:46

Yes, "allegedly" but I think there is data somewhere that 70% of IITians are staying back.


Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6023
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Amber G. » 20 Mar 2018 00:14

abhik wrote:
Supratik wrote:.... ISRO provides them with an ecosystem comparable with the best in the world. This has propelled ISRO and India to be a leading power in space. You need to create similar ecosystems in other fields.

I hope you are aware that ISRO gets only a negligible % of their people from the IITs, which is allegedly where the best engineering/science minds are trained.

I think this [negligible % of IITians in ISRO"] is incorrect. I just attended a "reunion" where I visited my IIT 50 years later and interacted with students/faculty/administration .. one of the student (doing PhD in Aeronautical Engineering ) asked the panel about his future choices and virtually every panelist suggested ISRO as one of the choice, and yes ISRO has quite a presence of IITians there and is attracting good students from IIT as well as other good institutes. [ The Mars mission, for example,showed, if any proof is needed, that talent there is top notch by any standard]

(Interestingly 75% of the people who attended the "reunion" were in India, and about 25% came from US)

Avarachan
BRFite
Posts: 499
Joined: 04 Jul 2006 21:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Avarachan » 20 Mar 2018 08:24

Rudradev wrote:This is a whole other category of "interests" being advanced right here. Let's emphasize the universal Dharmic principle of "do unto others" over all else. Because the Bangladeshis are doing "chain migration" into India, therefore (on principle) we should oppose "chain migration" that Indians use to immigrate into US. Prioritize self-righteousness at the cost of self-interest, that makes a lot of sense :roll:

No thanks, I prefer that Indian-Americans (and Indians) should have their kheer and eat it too, wherever possible. End chain migration in India, preserve it in the US. Nobody else beats themselves up over self-serving double-standards like we do. Others just grab with both hands and justify it later.


The greatest defeat is becoming like the enemy you despise. In general, in life, there is always a way to win while nonetheless holding on to truth and righteousness.

Avarachan
BRFite
Posts: 499
Joined: 04 Jul 2006 21:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Avarachan » 20 Mar 2018 08:28

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 578855.cms

January 16, 2017
"India’s brain gain: Fewer than 200 IIT graduates went abroad last year"

Not even 200 of the approximate 10,000 students from the Indian Institutes of Technology took up positions outside India last year .... "Compared to 20 years ago, a very small percentage of students go abroad today. This is contrary to the general perception+ ," says IIT-Delhi director V Ramgopal Rao. "Twenty years ago, 80% of the BTech class used to go abroad. Now these numbers are insignificant." .... Deepak Phatak, chair professor at IIT-Bombay, said that the real question is how many IITians applied for international jobs. "A large number of our students are not seeking jobs outside India," he said.
In fact Phatak was concerned about the quality of graduates when international offers started dwindling a few years ago. "So I conducted exit interviews and found that students perceive that the land of opportunity is here," he said.

Avarachan
BRFite
Posts: 499
Joined: 04 Jul 2006 21:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Avarachan » 20 Mar 2018 08:51

csaurabh wrote:We don't need more migration to the US, especially high tech/skilled people. We need them to stay back at home and develop our industries- which are genuinely ours, not MNC outsourcing. Yes, GOI and Indian society need to step up to it but we are moving in right direction.

Quite apart from anything else, the fact that all our top tier people choose to leave and settle abroad is a huge psychological and morale problem for those folks staying back in India. I don't think there could be anything more insulting to the Indian nation or the Indian people.


+1. I was born in the U.S.; my parents immigrated to the U.S. from Kerala. Nonetheless, I've never felt at home here and I'm in the process of moving to India and settling down there. My dream is to build an institution of higher learning founded on traditional Indian lines. The reaction of my Caucasian-American acquaintances has been fascinating ... It's often been one of anger and disbelief. The fact that someone would choose to leave the U.S. for India is a rebuke to Americanist notions of cultural superiority.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 62476
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Singha » 20 Mar 2018 09:31

what has happened is
- its tough to get a H1 after OPT expiry these days. it was already tough in non-IT industries without a Phd in hand, but now even in IT the cos are asked to favour local candidates which they do. getting in as a Phd is tough due to limited seats and limited people have aptitude.
- financial aid for MS has totally dried up.... 20 years ago in my era, almost every IIT btech got tuition waiver and quite a few (top GPA) got the coveted "full schol". you can take a loan and go, but if you have no guarantee of a job there to repay it, doubts arise esp for middle class students who form the bulk of iit/nit/"good college" intake. most of the earlier ones easily dropped at MS and got a job thereafter.

if these factors go away, again a lot of the top stem talent will start applying abroad for higher studies as a route to permanent residency in massa. I am not sure what % were doing it for "better work" and what % for "better life" - its impossible to separate the two anyway in any human and unfair also to judge people who are trying to do good for their own future. but the net binary we can track is a permanent emigration from india or retained in india permanently.

there is also a large floating pop of indian phd/post docs in EU, trying to get residency or eventually their goal is massa. this is more in pure sciences.

another out of band channel is that for kids of top officials and lutyens elites who have the money and contacts to either pay their way or get schols to pursue liberals arts in top massa univs on east coast. one section remains there, one section is recycled back to form the next echelon of the deep state.

I am involved in hiring for my BU and have been for a number of years . our observations are across BUs of a large co.
- we recruit freshers from a set of 25 top instts incl many of the NITs. 80% of them disappear after 2 yrs whether for higher studies (used to, not so now!) or into mba or other cash rich cos in new sectors
- the band of 4 yr exp to 10 yr exp suffers from a lack of quality candidates - we often have to interview 30 people to get 1 who is "good enough" and "will accept our payscale" :shock: the quality candidates were no longer in this field but in web development, payments, UI, databases, analytics and other new fields funded by cash rich mncs and startups.
- the seniors 10+ yrs exp are from good institutes and capable .... so the tail was becoming thinner and weaker maybe tide will turn now with MS route drying up.

what happened between around 2005 to 2015 was a explosion in the number of students going for MS and then getting to H1. the top talent from iit and nit and all good state / pvt colleges all disappeared into this rabbit hole. many also boldly took edu loans from here.

demand was what gave rise to fraud visa mill MS schools there...then a chain of small consulting cos would sweep them into system and file for GC.

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4377
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Neshant » 20 Mar 2018 10:46

Avarachan wrote:+1. I was born in the U.S.; my parents immigrated to the U.S. from Kerala. Nonetheless, I've never felt at home here and I'm in the process of moving to India and settling down there. My dream is to build an institution of higher learning founded on traditional Indian lines. The reaction of my Caucasian-American acquaintances has been fascinating ... It's often been one of anger and disbelief. The fact that someone would choose to leave the U.S. for India is a rebuke to Americanist notions of cultural superiority.


I would not disparage the U.S. It is a land of opportunity and as much as people complain, it does its best to offer non-white folks a fair shot at success. What more can one ask? Its unrealistic to ask for a perfect utopia as there is no perfect utopian country. US has largely succeeded in building an egalitarian society where if you work hard and have some brains, you can live the American dream.

That is until banksters and other con men started showing up with their crony capitalism....

Since you were born in the U.S, your social ties to India don't exist. Are you sure you can adapt to life in India or is your vision of the place romanticized? Have you lived in India for 3 to 6 months and worked there perhaps for a few months? I'd suggest trying that before making any major decisions. As with everything, there are pluses and minuses.

That being said, I was in a board room meeting when one CEO mentioned that a certain Indian engineer was leaving the company and moving to India because he wanted to raise his daughter there. Immediately one gora asked "What's wrong with raising his daughter here ??" in a somewhat irate tone. The reaction thereafter ranged from disbelief to comedic as one gora after another struggled to comprehend why a guy would be moving from a first world to a third world country. It was torture sitting in that chair not being able to laugh out loud at the bewilderment on everyone's face.

Zynda
BRFite
Posts: 1442
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 00:37
Location: J4

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Zynda » 20 Mar 2018 18:06

One metric is to track how many people are renouncing their Indian citizenships each year. I think GoI does not release the numbers...

ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5182
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ShauryaT » 20 Mar 2018 19:41

Avarachan: Let the gods bless you and be in touch. Good Luck.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5339
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Supratik » 20 Mar 2018 19:59

Zynda, check wiki (PIO). For India's size those giving up Indian citizenship are small around 2 lakh per year.

ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5182
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ShauryaT » 20 Mar 2018 20:09

Supratik wrote:Zynda, check wiki (PIO). For India's size those giving up Indian citizenship are small around 2 lakh per year.
I do not think we will have any reliable numbers for these. But let me share my anecdotal evidence. In the town I live in, most PIO's are fairly well settled. Meaning a house, professional jobs, kids in school etc. Most have advanced degrees Masters or higher. In this crowd, 90% would be either already citizens or in process of becoming one. The simple fact is as time passes, and emotional links to India decreases due to parents passing away, kids not interested/integrated, there is less and less attachment to India and with zero practical benefits. The ONLY thing that will keep one from not becoming a citizen, is this pledge of allegiance and 99% do not factor this as a reason. Even in other towns where there is a high H1 crowd, the move towards residency and Citizenship is only a matter of time.

Traditional American averages for people retaining the heritage country's citizenship is less than 2% and in my experience the PIO's are no exception. The American assimilative paradigm will eventually win.

Zynda
BRFite
Posts: 1442
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 00:37
Location: J4

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Zynda » 20 Mar 2018 20:31

ShauryaT wrote:kids not interested/integrated, there is less and less attachment to India and with zero practical benefits.

Thats why I am not sold on the premise that more Indians settled outside India is "good" for India at least in a tangible way.

Although to be fair, a few years ago, I did meet quite a few US born Indian origin kids (mainly youngsters in mid to late 20s) in BLR who were here to capitalise on Indian market potential via either running their own startups (also probably cheaper to run a startup here than in Amreeka) or working for one...almost all of them were in IT-Vity.

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3118
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rudradev » 20 Mar 2018 22:10

Avarachan wrote:
The greatest defeat is becoming like the enemy you despise. In general, in life, there is always a way to win while nonetheless holding on to truth and righteousness.


Thanks for the lecture.

To my mind it is truthful and righteous that the American supercontinent should not be regarded, within the Indic worldview, as the exclusive property-in-perpetuity of white Christians who stole it from its natives and extracted its resources using African slave labour. Such self-debasement in fact is reflective of a despicable, colonized mentality.

There is no reason why this land and its riches should not belong to Dharmics of Bharatiya origin. It has belonged to enough different peoples before. It will belong in future to those with the strength, intelligence, and will to take it.

It is those Indians who side with White Christian supremacists, the sort of people who want to keep the USA a white-majority country by placing curbs on immigration, who are adopting the attitudes of a despised enemy.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5339
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Supratik » 20 Mar 2018 22:19

That data in wiki is from MEA, is updated yearly and is therefore pretty reliable.

panduranghari
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3724
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby panduranghari » 21 Mar 2018 00:51

Singha wrote:there is also a large floating pop of indian phd/post docs in EU, trying to get residency or eventually their goal is massa.


It's not. Many waiting green card/naturalisation queues of US, find European 5 years stay and then Permanent residency and citizenship more appealing

Avarachan
BRFite
Posts: 499
Joined: 04 Jul 2006 21:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Avarachan » 24 Mar 2018 10:40

Rudradev wrote:There is no reason why this land and its riches should not belong to Dharmics of Bharatiya origin. It has belonged to enough different peoples before. It will belong in future to those with the strength, intelligence, and will to take it.


This is exactly what the British imperialists said to justify their rape of India. I reject this mentality entirely. I have no desire to be like them, regardless of how much money is at stake. By the way, as always happens, rapacity destroys any community which embraces it. All of the Anglosphere countries have tremendous social problems related to their cultures of genocide. They're so used to murder, theft, and deception as a business strategy they simply don't know how to create free, healthy, harmonious societies. As is well known, Auntystan--their mother "civilization"--is on the verge of imploding.

Obviously, there's nothing wrong with Indian-Americans wanting to be treated fairly and rewarded justly for their labor. But imitating Anglo-imperialist greed and sociopathy is not the right path to take, in my opinion.
Last edited by Avarachan on 24 Mar 2018 11:00, edited 1 time in total.

Avarachan
BRFite
Posts: 499
Joined: 04 Jul 2006 21:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Avarachan » 24 Mar 2018 10:44

ShauryaT wrote:Avarachan: Let the gods bless you and be in touch. Good Luck.


ShauryaT, thank you for your good wishes.

Avarachan
BRFite
Posts: 499
Joined: 04 Jul 2006 21:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Avarachan » 24 Mar 2018 10:59

Neshant wrote:Since you were born in the U.S, your social ties to India don't exist. Are you sure you can adapt to life in India or is your vision of the place romanticized? Have you lived in India for 3 to 6 months and worked there perhaps for a few months? I'd suggest trying that before making any major decisions. As with everything, there are pluses and minuses.


Thank you for your concern. I recently lived in India for two years for precisely this purpose. Indian youth have tremendous potential: they're patriotic, hard-working, creative, genuine, morally upright, and friendly. However, the current educational system is less than ideal. I would like to make a contribution in this area.

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4377
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Neshant » 24 Mar 2018 14:03

Avarachan wrote:Thank you for your concern. I recently lived in India for two years for precisely this purpose. Indian youth have tremendous potential: they're patriotic, hard-working, creative, genuine, morally upright, and friendly. However, the current educational system is less than ideal. I would like to make a contribution in this area.


In that case, go for it.

What kind of school or institute are you planning on setting up and how will it be funded?

Avarachan
BRFite
Posts: 499
Joined: 04 Jul 2006 21:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Avarachan » 25 Mar 2018 07:32

Neshant wrote:
Avarachan wrote:Thank you for your concern. I recently lived in India for two years for precisely this purpose. Indian youth have tremendous potential: they're patriotic, hard-working, creative, genuine, morally upright, and friendly. However, the current educational system is less than ideal. I would like to make a contribution in this area.


In that case, go for it.

What kind of school or institute are you planning on setting up and how will it be funded?


I'm both a writer and teacher. One of my areas of interest is religion and national-security issues. For instance, I've studied how to counteract jihadist propaganda. There was significant interest in India in my work ... Retired Indian Navy officers were particularly interested. So, I plan to publish and from that, attract supporters who believe in my approach. I'm not naive ... I understand that building a high-quality school/university will take many years.

Thanks again for your kind words.

Avarachan
BRFite
Posts: 499
Joined: 04 Jul 2006 21:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Avarachan » 25 Mar 2018 08:21

As a side-note, I notice many commenters stating that Indian-Americans should look to Jews as a model. I respectfully disagree with this. For instance, in 2010, Israeli Rabbi Ovadia Yosef said that non-Jews "were born only to serve us." It is true that certain Jewish organizations condemned his remark. Nonetheless, it is also true that his 2013 funeral was the largest in Israel's history, with an estimated 700,000 in attendance. This scorn and condescension from a minority towards the majority is bound to cause resentment. For Indian-Americans to adopt this sort of attitude will lead to disaster, as it has so often for various Jewish communities around the world.

If Indian-Americans are looking for ideas, they might want to study what Armenians have done ... Armenian communities are present throughout the world. They've generally flourished (with the tragic exception of the genocide under the Turkish jihadists) without engendering the animosity that Jews frequently have.

Kati
BRFite
Posts: 1071
Joined: 27 Jun 1999 11:31
Location: The planet Earth

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Kati » 25 Mar 2018 10:49

Grad students from India to US universities are declining, and more paisa-wallah undergrads are filling the slots.
Shortage of "outstanding" Indian grad students, perhaps except the Computer Science/Engg, in other fields are being felt in US schools,
and the heydays of eighties and nineties are over. Those who are coming are mostly mediocre, and Bharat shouldn't mind if they leave
the country. However, One should keep an wide eye toward China which is supplying bulk of the int'al students to the US schools. Some
interesting trends are worth noticing with the chinese students. (1) It appears that the chinese govt is deliberately pushing their students
as a state policy to capture Aaaamreeka by their sheer numbers. (2) The GRE+TOEFL/IELTS have become a joke for the chinese students.
It appears that coaching centers with leaked question papers and/or fraudulant reco letters have become a billion dollar business in China,
and the US grad schools are scratching their heads and giving up on this. (A lot on this matter have been discussed in the Chrinicles of Higher
Education already. Many US schools are doing away with the GRE requirements now. It seems that the Chinese govt has a direct hand in pushing
their students into the US schools. (3) What is more interesting is that the Chinese students, both male and female ones, are now flooding all
disciplines - from psychology to biology, from sociology to computer science. (4) It is no surprise that all proprietary scientific softwares / codes /packages are finding their ways into China whereby US companies are losing billions of $$ royalties. (5) Now comes the effect of this heavy
chinese demographic weight - given any faculty vacancy in US university / college, if there are 100 applicants (which is typical in STEM areas),
50 will be chinese applicants, and may be only 10 Indians. The US schools are grudgingly employing Chinese fresh doctorates since they are the
only ones available. Till about 20 years ago the communication skills of the Chinese grad students were mostly poor. But in late nineties Chinese
government took an ambitious plan to pump about 6 billion dollars to a list of top Chinese schools, and started instructions in english medium also.
(At that time it was thought that they wanted to compete with Indian IT professionals only, but their plan was much deeper.) For that, they offered fat juicy packages to native US/UK/ Auzz/NZ faculty members for 2-5 year stints in Chinese schools. At the same time, they signed MoUs with various US universities so that Chinese students can spend 2 years in China, and another 2 years in the US (at the undergrad level). Many of these studentshave very good english communication skills, and this also feeds the graduate school enrollments. (6) Now we see the effect of heavy Chinese concentration in the US academics: - US agencies like NSF, NIH, USDA, NASA, etc are now forced to recruit the Chinese scientists (who are now GC holders / US citizens) into their administrative ranks. They are now calling shots on which researcher in which university would get how much research funding.
(7) At the same time, many Chinese scholars are now joining US drug companies, agro research companies, etc. (all high value targets). The tell-tale signs of a hidden Chinese govt is hard to miss. (Only lately, alarmed GOTUS started cracking down on industrial espionage by the chinese schietists, and record number of arrests are being made. But these are mostly for defense industries. Pretty much all agencies, all energy companies, all utility companies have been hollowed out of their intellectual properties.) (8) To hasten up the process of capturing Aaamreeka there is a new ploy - to short-cut the undergrad - grad school step, China is now sending their post-docs and/or other scholars already with doctoral degrees through their National Science Council with generous financial support. They latch on to existing chinese faculty members to undertake "joint research". Since they are not asking for financial support, and may help research publications, almost all schools don't mind their stay. However, they use the high performance computing facilities to run heavy simulations which can have dual use, including defense and space research. (9) At the same time, Chinese universities are hosting int'al conferences - from machine learning to material science, from computational math to cell biology, and inviting top non-chinese scholars from the west. These conferences are like huge vacuum cleaners. They absorb all presentations, and methodically check their useage. (10) The shrewdest of all ploys is the presence of large numbers of female chinese scholars ... some blame it for honey-trap.... Least said the better.....

Sorry,...this long post became a chinese bashing ...... By the way, if you get a chance read the book 'Tiger trap'.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: anupmisra, ramdas, RoyG and 22 guests