India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5481
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Cyrano »

What exactly is the logic given by US to not buy Russian equipment? I see none. The expectation is that just because Amreeka doesnt like it, or perceives such equipment as a "potential" threat to US' super duper F35, or wants to stifle Russian MIC and generally cause decline in Russian influence over the world, India should comply.

Asking India to ditch Russian equipment is simply overreach. US obviously knows India's ORBAT is full of Russian tanks, aircraft, subs and bunch of other stuff. One of the reasons for US' keen interest in conducting exercises with Indian forces was/is to get to know Russian equipment in near combat situations, and therefore update their doctrines and tactics with the knowledge gained.

By sticking to this demand to cancel S400 purchase, US has painted itself into a corner.

India is buying S-400 to primarily to counter China's already purchased S-400 system to reestablish parity, since more of India's populated regions and cities come under Chinese missile ranges than vice versa. S-400 is not just a fancy gadget but it will become a central component of India's self defence architecture in the future.

GoI simply cannot give in on S400 since it goes to the heart of its security and sovereignty and sets a precedent of letting a foreign power dictate how India should equip its military.

After imposing sanctions on Turkey, the US cannot let India's refusal to obtemperate go by without reaction.

Imposing "sanctions" will reinforce India's lingering suspicion of US intent and will make it move away, thus undoing the rapprochement that both sides have achieved painstakingly over the past 3 decades.

Ultimately, CAATSA is US' internal problem. They have to find some creative way to push a waiver for India in their system, in the interest of the relationship's future growth. The best course of action is to get a (purposefully vague) statement issued on the lines of "India has listened carefully to US' concerns and has shown willingness to find mutually acceptable solutions for the future..." and let this S400 issue fall off the radar.
darshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4018
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 04:16

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by darshan »

GoI urges US to transfer technology so Russians are kept at bay. 25% Indian citizens are requested to be part of US weapons development so Russians aren't in the picture. How do this people even get to the place they are if they lack common sense? Leave diplomacy to diplomats.
vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8785
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by vijayk »

Image

Image
vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8785
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by vijayk »

vijayk wrote:Image

Image

https://twitter.com/iMac_too/status/1373810638112268289
iMac_too @iMac_too
कांग्रेस मिडिया कार्यकर्ता & employee of controversial media org @ndtv
asked US Sec Def about India's internal issues with an aim to draw adverse comments on our democracy. Lloyd Austin refusing to fall into
@vishnundtv 's trap forcefully said, "India is a democratic country"
g.sarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4382
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by g.sarkar »

https://thediplomat.com/2021/03/us-indi ... -to-biden/
US-India Relations: The Shift From Trump to Biden
As Washington and Delhi seek stronger ties, three policy shifts underway in the Biden administration may limit cooperation.
By Emily Ashbridge, March 17, 2021

Against the odds, U.S.-India relations flourished under President Donald Trump. Shared concerns over China and a strong rapport between Trump and Indian Prime Minster Narendra Modi insulated the relationship from much of the chaos other U.S. partners experienced. Nevertheless, India welcomed President Joe Biden’s “spectacular victory.” Enthusiasm for Biden’s win signaled a hope in New Delhi that the new administration would cement the gains made over the past four years and pave the way for a closer U.S.-India partnership. However, though both leaders seek stronger ties, three policy shifts in Washington may limit U.S.-India cooperation.
First, Biden is likely to take a more nuanced approach to China, seeking avenues to cooperate in an otherwise competitive relationship. This multidimensional approach will create a more difficult geopolitical path for New Delhi, pushing India to once again balance relations with its northern neighbor. While Biden’s approach to China will likely be similar to his predecessor’s, even slight improvements in U.S.-China ties may impact India’s strategic calculus.
How the Biden administration approaches Pakistan could also limit U.S.-India cooperation. Biden may warm to Pakistan in hopes of receiving concessions in Afghanistan. Any rapprochement between the United States and Pakistan could elicit contempt from India and undermine Washington’s reliability as a security partner in New Delhi’s eyes.
Second, Biden has promised to place a greater emphasis on values. Since his re-election in 2019, Modi has shown a willingness to transgress the democratic norms that underpin U.S.-India relations. Internet shutdowns, arrests of journalists, and police violence suggest a concerning decline in civil liberties. While the Trump administration was largely silent on these matters, Biden is expected to take a stand. Differences over values could not only impact the tone and pace of the relationship but, if unchecked, could raise doubts in the Biden administration over India’s credibility as a strategic partner in the Indo-Pacific.
Third, U.S.-India defense cooperation will need to effectively navigate the Russia factor. While India’s defense relationship with Russia dates back to the Cold War, the United States fears Russian machinery will complicate interoperability with India. In January, India signaled willingness to risk U.S. sanctions for the purchase of a Russian missile defense system. Biden is expected to be tougher on Russia than Trump, which could cause friction as India seeks to maintain ties that date back to the Cold War.
.....
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
https://www.dailypioneer.com/2021/sunda ... biden.html
New chapter in India-US relations under Biden
Sunday, 21 March 2021 | Manan Dwivedi

The global media has placed the agenda upright and has aptly covered the slew of executive orders signed by US President Joe Biden on the first day of his Presidency.
The “Make America Great” again agenda of former President Donald Trump could not prop him up as a successful candidate as his mishandling of the Covid-19 crisis seemingly did him in if one adheres to the casus belli of a section of American observers.
Still, what seemed akin to being a diplomatic tour de force for Prime Minister Narendra Modi vis-a-vis his American counterpart might turn into a stringent and stern tight ropewalk during the Presidency of Biden. President Trump emphatically declared Modi to be the “true friend” of his during his various negotiations and summitries ranging from the razzmatazz of Howdy Modi in Houston, Texas, to the summitry at the Motera stadium in Ahmedabad. The blitz of the Trump-Modi tango might have been cut short by the mathematics of plain-Jane electoralism in the American homeland but the show must go on, as they contend!
New Delhi is also much relieved with the immigration related executive orders promulgated by President Biden which improve the numerical health of the Indian nationals to reach the shores of the United States as legal immigrants. Seemingly, it might seem like an early bird call but, still, the India America camaraderie along with the insistence on Malabar naval exercises might be good and pious indicators of the larger feel of the India-America relations which have often been referred to as “a special relationship,” since the recent past.
President Biden and the quintessential pet peeve of the traditional Democrats have always been centered on to the narrative of human rights. The American and the Democrat standpoint on Kashmir, the abrogation of Article 370 and the farmers’ agitation in India, have raised disgruntled voices and referee calls from the US. This American standpoint will appear as a grave challenge for the New Delhi denomination where-in India will have to up the ante against its adversarial nation states and several other international actors by attaining the supporting voice of the Americans.
......
Gautam
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5481
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Cyrano »

Obvious points made in these superficial articles. BR folks have better analyses and nuanced arguments than the Diplomat or press articles these days ! LoL !
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Suraj »

Rudradev wrote:Suraj, that is precisely the cause for alarm. If the Senate FRC was concerned about S400, and even wanted Sec. Austin to brandish sanctions in this regard, they could have said just that. Not an India-friendly move, even diplomatically tone-deaf, but if they had kept their missive specifically qua S400 we could have written it off as BAU with Obama era policymakers.

Menendez has carried this into the realm of the actively hostile by deliberately conflating Soros talking-points with the S400 issue: human rights, CAA, 370, farmer protests, "freedom house", you name it. We used to scoff at this 5hit coming out of random municipal councils & university departments. But this is the United States Senate.

Quite unprecedented.
Cause for alarm ? Unprecedented ? The US has been unhinged when it comes to anything to do with Russia for about 3 generations now. It looks like the entire engagement went like :

Austin: I'm supposed to tell you we are very upset about your S400 deal and that we deplore (looks down at paper) yes, hyooman right violations, cashmere, CAA, farmers, (drone)
Rajnath (nods head) : I'm supposed to tell you that we don't care.
Austin: Sounds good. Fist bump ?
Rajnath (smiles): Ok

The whole thing was an anticlimax. In big power circles, power is demonstrated by the steadfast refusal not to be outraged by anything, even if you're bothered. Control and dominance is built on refusal to accept whatever standing the other side claims it has.

Menendez is an idiot, within an administration that's doing quite badly in foreign policy lately. They made a total mess of the Alaska Summit, POTUS resorted to namecalling of the Russian leader and then quietly ran away when Putin suggested a live debate.

This is 2021. India is past the being ignored and being laughed at stage. We're in the being fought against stage. Our behavior needs to reflect great power aspiration and not the touchy sensitivities of an insecure past.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by nam »

Weapon buying is always a strategic deal. Nations always look for strategic gains, when they give large weapon orders.

What exactly is a 3T GDP India gaining by giving large weapons deals to 1.3T GDP Russia? Any Economic benefits? Any technology benefits?
Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10033
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Mort Walker »

This hasn't been the first time India has been threatened with CAATSA. In 2018, India was negotiating a long-term oil and gas contract with Iran and third parties like various former ambassadors and congress critters threatened India with sanctions. There wasn't really anyone in the US administration which was openly threatening India, and similarly there isn't anyone in the current administration openly threatening. Blinken didn't come with Austin for a 2+2 to India, which might have been a way of avoiding being pressed by the leftist-Islamists in congress and the media.

Any sanctions on India will cause a significant deterioration of relations and a permanent setback for decades that will likely make the Quad irrelevant. The executive branch has to file an annual report to congress and POTUS can give a waiver.
hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4635
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by hnair »

If it is in US interest, the POTUS of the day will lie through the teeth and sign all sorts of waivers. Remember the Symmington amendment which caused issues to paki aid flow and its loophole Pressler amendment? The latter is supposed to firm up the former, but actually worked to open a small porthole for the cold warrior types to indulge in suicidal arming of jihadis.

Every President from Reagan to Clinton unabashedly lied when they put their signature on the annual presidential report which said that the pakis and cheenis were good boys when it comes to non-proliferation.

As long as the Chinese act stupid (like they did in Alaska) and not give Biden the space he needs to act “panchayat president of free worlds”, the old man will put down his signature on waivers.

Beyond the S400, it is Russia that needs to rise up to the challenge thrown by the Chinese and not help them out with Su57s, which seem a decent compromise alternative to fifth and Neo-fourth gen that the US is talking about. At some point, India also will consider those craft, due to earliest Su30MKI hitting obsolescence. What is the equivalent bribe that the POTUS of day would need to sign such waivers ?
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Suraj »

The level of posturing and maneuvering at big power interactions is perhaps underestimated. Both parties would naturally aim to maximize gains. The US in fact looks rather amateurish here, bringing in assorted domestic political noise into such a conversation. It reflects poorly on their ability and not ours.

With smaller countries, such detailed lists are superfluous. They're just sanctioned right away. With India at this point, sanctions are a rather stupid approach. Instead they puff their feathers out , wave hands about and make noises. This is how high level big power diplomacy normally works. In the past they'd just slap sanctions on various entities and move on. They don't have the luxury of doing that now.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32283
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by chetak »

nam wrote:Weapon buying is always a strategic deal. Nations always look for strategic gains, when they give large weapon orders.

What exactly is a 3T GDP India gaining by giving large weapons deals to 1.3T GDP Russia? Any Economic benefits? Any technology benefits?
not to mention that we still rely hugely on russia for replenishment stores for our large holding stocks of older weapon and naval systems

russia has had our back for a long time so it would not be wise to cut them off.

If the hans truly wanted to screw us, they would simply tone down the verbal and rhetorical actions in the SCS which would not leave the amerikis much reason to stay in the region and also reduce their reason to back up India.

the aussies would also bugger off in a jiffy.

and the hans would wait a while and then start to work on us again and no white jokers will shed blood for Indians

If the amerikis need to stay in the SCS, they need India for the logistics, just like aussies need us for their own logistics. If the need goes away, both the goras will also vanish so net net this is all that we really mean to the "QUAD"

the rest is merely window dressing, any which way you slice it
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by kit »

chetak wrote:
nam wrote:Weapon buying is always a strategic deal. Nations always look for strategic gains, when they give large weapon orders.

If the hans truly wanted to screw us, they would simply tone down the verbal and rhetorical actions in the SCS which would not leave the amerikis much reason to stay in the region and also reduce their reason to back up India.
The Chinese will., once the SCS is fully under their control and Taiwan "retaken" the Indian ocean is next
srikandan
BRFite
Posts: 590
Joined: 20 Nov 2020 02:51

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by srikandan »

kit: The Chinese will., once the SCS is fully under their control and Taiwan "retaken" the Indian ocean is next
China's trade, almost all of it, passes through the Indian Ocean, so if they raise hostilities in the SCS, i.e., they start warring, then shutting down those shipping lanes (which is allowed if it is war) will destroy their economy. So it is in their best interest to not start warring overtly. QUAD controlling the Indian Ocean waters should put a damper on such moves, assuming that QUAD has the legs and won't buckle due to US or Australia.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32283
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by chetak »

srikandan wrote:
kit: The Chinese will., once the SCS is fully under their control and Taiwan "retaken" the Indian ocean is next
China's trade, almost all of it, passes through the Indian Ocean, so if they raise hostilities in the SCS, i.e., they start warring, then shutting down those shipping lanes (which is allowed if it is war) will destroy their economy. So it is in their best interest to not start warring overtly. QUAD controlling the Indian Ocean waters should put a damper on such moves, assuming that QUAD has the legs and won't buckle due to US or Australia.
china does not have a critical mass on its own so it has tried to leverage the OBOR and the CPEC to attain this mass.

the pandemic is a black swan, even to china, which stands accused of unleashing it because its OBOR clients are badly affected and the pandemic blowback has badly hurt the hans and also their reputation has taken a major hit when India, most unexpectedly stood up to it during doklam and ladakh.

so now, countries which were once very shy of offending china like India, australia etc have turned into full blown adversaries

Bad economics both inside and outside of china have left them short of money. They have effectively created an united opposition working against them which they did not have until a few years ago.

It is in their best interests to stop stirring the pot and poking the bee hive for some years at least, to recharge and recoup assets.
chanakyaa
BRFite
Posts: 1723
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 00:09
Location: Hiding in Karakoram

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by chanakyaa »

Menendez has carried this into the realm of the actively hostile by deliberately conflating Soros talking-points with the S400 issue: human rights, CAA, 370, farmer protests, "freedom house", you name it. We used to scoff at this 5hit coming out of random municipal councils & university departments. But this is the United States Senate.
It took me a while to understand that whenever Abrahamics accuse non-Abrahamics of doing something, you get a true picture by swapping the accused and accuser. Do victims of gun violence have any rights?

(Today)
'Sad day for Boulder': Gunman kills 10 at Colorado supermarket, including police officer, in second US mass shooting in a week

5 Days ago
8 Dead in Atlanta Spa Shootings, With Fears of Anti-Asian Bias
Ambar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3173
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Ambar »

Almost 24 hrs after the Boulder supermarket shooting the scum mainstream media is still hiding the identity and real motive of the shooter. The name of the shooter is Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa, and his motive was jihad. This distortion of truth, bending reality to suit the narrative (how they turned a mentally ill Atlanta shooter's bizarre motive of killing sex workers to cure his sex addiction into racism) will further take US down the same path of no return that Europe has been tumbling down for 30 yrs now.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4226
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Rudradev »

Ambar wrote:\ (how they turned a mentally ill Atlanta shooter's bizarre motive of killing sex workers to cure his sex addiction into racism) \.
It was racism. The guy drove across two counties specifically to kill Asian sex workers. Asians are less than 4% of the population of GA. He couldn't find any other sex workers to kill from 96% of the population and closer to his vicinity?
Ambar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3173
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
Location: Weak meek unkil Sam!

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Ambar »

Two out of 8 Atlanta shooting victims were white & hispanic . He frequented massage parlors which provided sexual services (illegally ofcourse). And since almost all of such illegal massage parlors are owned and operated by Chinese/Vietnamese/Koreans it was inevitable that the majority of his victims would turn out to be Asians.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4226
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Rudradev »

Asian-owned massage parlors are by no means the only type of service available to American sex addicts. It was this person's choice to (illegally) frequent these particular establishments and then to kill the women who worked there.

The very fact that he saw killing these (non-white, Asian) women as an acceptable way of curing his sex addiction is itself evidence of racism.

Most certainly the jihadi nature of the Boulder terrorism incident needs to be trumpeted from the rooftops. But there is no need to provide apologia for white racist murderers in the process. Particularly evangelical Christian Abrahamic fanatics as the Atlanta shooter appears to be.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4226
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Rudradev »

But there are JUICY details emerging around the Boulder Jihadi Shooter, who was a clear exponent of Radical Islamic Terrorism:
Alissa’s now-deleted Facebook page said he was “born in Syria in 1999 came to the USA in 2002,” the Daily Beast reported.

He included postings about Islam, such as its prayers and religious holidays, on his account — and shared another person’s thoughts the day after the mosque massacres in Christchurch, New Zealand, that killed 51 people in 2019.

“The Muslims at the #christchurch mosque were not the victims of a single shooter,” rea the post on Alissa’s page, according to the Daily Beast. “They were the victims of the entire Islamophobia industry that vilified them.”
vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8785
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by vijayk »

Looks like Meena Harris went nuts on this but deleted the tweets... Bet she will derail VP's ultimate throne aspiration
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4226
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Rudradev »

Meena Harris went nuts meaning?

Calling out the Boulder shooter as a jihadi?

Or trying to cover him up as "anti-social", "mentally disturbed" etc (which the Woke Media are already trying to do? See https://www.thedailybeast.com/boulder-c ... a?ref=home :) )
Punjabi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 56
Joined: 25 Mar 2020 05:10

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Punjabi »

Rudradev wrote:Meena Harris went nuts meaning?

Calling out the Boulder shooter as a jihadi?

Or trying to cover him up as "anti-social", "mentally disturbed" etc (which the Woke Media are already trying to do? See https://www.thedailybeast.com/boulder-c ... a?ref=home :) )
Yeah, this is how the BidenXinMu media will cover them...welcome to the apologists dominated 4 years...becharaJihadi, educated, fun loving, quiet, god fearing pappoooooo...pata nahin kya hua, kisne trigger kar diya...oh wait a minute, he visited the SevenEleven where Mr. Patel taunted him....go get those bloody Indians...
vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3986
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by vera_k »

The guns situations is FUBAR. Last year saw a huge spike in gun sales in the run up to the elections. And mental health has suffered a whole lot due to the pandemic.

A lawyer on Twitter with poor impulse control leads to a premature tweet. Far different consequences when a gun is on hand...
darshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4018
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 04:16

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by darshan »

Punjabi wrote:he visited the SevenEleven where Mr. Patel taunted him....go get those bloody Indians...
Except that it's the islamist crowd that's systematical making the push to take over various small businesses including gas stations that are usually associated with desi people. Once they move into your area it's practically impossible to compete with their closed community parallel system where there's no regards for any rules, victim card ready, don't touch them attitude of law system, army of lawyers available to save them or needle the opposition, etc. People forget that every incoming refugee represents one more business joint for the local mosque and parallel economy.
Punjabi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 56
Joined: 25 Mar 2020 05:10

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Punjabi »

darshan wrote:
Punjabi wrote:he visited the SevenEleven where Mr. Patel taunted him....go get those bloody Indians...
Except that it's the islamist crowd that's systematical making the push to take over various small businesses including gas stations that are usually associated with desi people. Once they move into your area it's practically impossible to compete with their closed community parallel system where there's no regards for any rules, victim card ready, don't touch them attitude of law system, army of lawyers available to save them or needle the opposition, etc. People forget that every incoming refugee represents one more business joint for the local mosque and parallel economy.
Sirji, I was just being sarcastic... of course, I concur with what you said above...I have seen that 1st hand in NJ. Problem is we are full of fools who melt at their lies and 'IndoPak' and other crap...when they get their footing, they stab us right back...laughing all the way to the bank...
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4226
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Rudradev »

Punjabi wrote:
darshan wrote: Except that it's the islamist crowd that's systematical making the push to take over various small businesses including gas stations that are usually associated with desi people. Once they move into your area it's practically impossible to compete with their closed community parallel system where there's no regards for any rules, victim card ready, don't touch them attitude of law system, army of lawyers available to save them or needle the opposition, etc. People forget that every incoming refugee represents one more business joint for the local mosque and parallel economy.
Sirji, I was just being sarcastic... of course, I concur with what you said above...I have seen that 1st hand in NJ. Problem is we are full of fools who melt at their lies and 'IndoPak' and other crap...when they get their footing, they stab us right back...laughing all the way to the bank...

Exactly correct: both Darshan's observations about the systematic Muslim takeover of the small business sector, district by district, and Punjabi's observations that this has for the most part already happened in NJ.

Which is why Suraj's characterization of Senator Robert Menendez as an "idiot" is completely off the mark. He is not an idiot. He knows precisely who can mobilize to deliver him the votes & the funds his campaign will need. He knows it is not the lemming "South-Asianised" NJ Hindus, for all their numbers, and for all the net worth &/or degrees they might flaunt in their individual households.
Last edited by Rudradev on 24 Mar 2021 21:08, edited 1 time in total.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Philip »

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2021/03 ... rahma.html

THE QUAD: HYPE VS REALITY: BRAHMA CHELLANEY
TUESDAY, MARCH 23, 2021 BY INDIAN DEFENCE NEWS
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by kit »

Cyrano wrote:What exactly is the logic given by US to not buy Russian equipment? I see none.

After imposing sanctions on Turkey, the US cannot let India's refusal to obtemperate go by without reaction.

Ultimately, CAATSA is US' internal problem. They have to find some creative way to push a waiver for India in their system, in the interest of the relationship's future growth. The best course of action is to get a (purposefully vague) statement issued on the lines of "India has listened carefully to US' concerns and has shown willingness to find mutually acceptable solutions for the future..." and let this S400 issue fall off the radar.
The logic of CAATSA is seen as a "problem" .It is not. Rather it is one of the tools of American policy making. It is there to "balance" views inside the policy making establishment.

In giving an exemption to such an act America can in effect create a sort of " we did you a favour" and now "you owe us one".

Thus, it would create a favourable situation for them WITHOUT any tangible giveaways.

It has nothing to do with other countries military requirements /capacities/ allied status.

The above effect would come into place in dealing with countries of "allied" status.

For countries that need to be made an example of , the act would be fully enforced.

CAATSA is thus a brilliant invention of American foreign policy
Last edited by kit on 25 Mar 2021 01:13, edited 1 time in total.
m_saini
BRFite
Posts: 767
Joined: 23 May 2020 20:25

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by m_saini »

kit wrote: In giving an exemption to such an act America can in effect create a sort of " we did you a favour" and now "you owe us one".
I think this would only work for countries who believe that America indeed is the land of the free and protector of the free world. Besides they actually did sanction turkey so it's not all empty threats.

Hopefully, in our meetings with them, we act offended that US threaten sanctions, dares to dictate where we spend our money and demand concessions elsewhere. Let them know that we don't see Russia as a mortal enemy of US so the sanctions are stupid. Just like the Americans would no doubt be offended and shout hindoo nationalism if India sanctions american companies operating in pakiland.
chanakyaa
BRFite
Posts: 1723
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 00:09
Location: Hiding in Karakoram

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by chanakyaa »

Rudradev wrote:...
...He knows precisely who can mobilize to deliver him the votes & the funds his campaign will need. He knows it is not the lemming "South-Asianised" NJ Hindus, for all their numbers, and for all the net worth &/or degrees they might flaunt in their individual households.
He definitely knows his constituency well...

#titter
@SenatorMenendez
NJ has the highest percentage of Muslims in the US.

https://twitter.com/SenatorMenendez/sta ... 9980461056
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5352
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Cain Marko »

In the meanwhile, don't somewhat better in Chicagoland,
https://www.change.org/p/lori-lightfoot ... tm_term=cs
darshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4018
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 04:16

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by darshan »

Ah let's see if they move to singing songs attributed to Bhagat Singh. Or from 1962 war movies. Not sure what exactly US is trying to convey here. Bharatiya people do have actual war songs and cries. Put in the full effort.
Watch: US Navy sings Hindi song from hit Bollywood movie Swades
https://www.wionews.com/india-news/watc ... des-373878
nvishal
BRFite
Posts: 992
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:03

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by nvishal »

darshan wrote:Not sure what exactly US is trying to convey here
youtu dot be/9etUEqaMucw

It's the same thing which missionaries try to achieve in a tribal society before they proceed to the next step. The defence walls were erected by our ancestors.
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Suraj »

Rudradev wrote:Exactly correct: both Darshan's observations about the systematic Muslim takeover of the small business sector, district by district, and Punjabi's observations that this has for the most part already happened in NJ.

Which is why Suraj's characterization of Senator Robert Menendez as an "idiot" is completely off the mark. He is not an idiot. He knows precisely who can mobilize to deliver him the votes & the funds his campaign will need. He knows it is not the lemming "South-Asianised" NJ Hindus, for all their numbers, and for all the net worth &/or degrees they might flaunt in their individual households.
You're conflating domestic US (including diaspora) imperatives with Indo-US national imperatives here. The Indian diaspora has historically translated to very little in terms of converting their demographic size, economic capability or even participation in the US political process, into benefits in the context of Indo-US ties. Some feel good actions here and there, but nothing like another well off small diaspora like the Israeli one or even the Japanese one.

The purpose of this thread should not confuse domestic US political imperatives with Indo-US ones. Historically, the likes of Menendez are the norm, not the glaring and dangerous exception. Amongst US elected representatives, there have been far more 'India baiters' than the opposite kind.

What does Menendez' actions do in terms of the benefits or lack of it accruing to Indians, in India ? There's often a tendency to color Indo-US ties with diaspora views and concerns. The two are not the same thing - this has been stated by hnair multiple times too.

In strategic interactions, grandstanding over domestic political imperatives is a great way to get oneself humiliated, if not at least viewed as unprofessional. The India that talks to the US today at the strategic high level does not sit there chastised with its head bowed. It might lack the theatrics of the China-US summit, but the response from our end is functionally the same - "none of your business".

That's why someone like Menendez is an idiot. He's misusing a strategic conversation to push his domestic politics. The US can continue doing that, at the cost of pissing off everyone they interact with, and progressively make everyone look at them as a bunch of preachy w*nkers who think too highly of themselves. The US gains nothing by dumbing its political process to such a level - they're doing the INC-style appeasement politics upon themselves and it'll cost them .
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4826
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by KLNMurthy »

Rudradev wrote:
Ambar wrote:\ (how they turned a mentally ill Atlanta shooter's bizarre motive of killing sex workers to cure his sex addiction into racism) \.
It was racism. The guy drove across two counties specifically to kill Asian sex workers. Asians are less than 4% of the population of GA. He couldn't find any other sex workers to kill from 96% of the population and closer to his vicinity?
I don’t know that the Atlanta killer intentionally set out to kill southeast asians in so many words so to speak. It could be said that his motive was primarily sexual and secondarily has a racial component.

A lot of white guys apparently harbor sexual objectification fantasies about east-southeast Asian women. They somehow see them as soft, docile and compliant. “Massage parlor” businesses intentionally cater to those fantasies. Usually the women there are severely exploited.

It seems that this particular white guy was in the grip of such fantasies and was indulging them at these massage parlors. At the same time his Christian brainwashing made him ashamed of it. Instead of just accepting his nature, or stopping his behavior or somehow punishing himself, he decided it would be more convenient to just kill the massage parlor women because he racially stereotyped them as non-humans, just sexual objects.

To tie it back to the thread, I have been thinking that a lot of the attitudes and behavior of USians and my fellow NRIs towards India is strikingly like the behavior of this guy towards the massage parlor women, minus the sexual element. They have a fantasy-image of India—docile, but also colorful, and maybe a passive receptacle for their charitable impulses; something on which to project their personal fantasies without cost or risk. When that fantasy is disrupted because of the reality of India, they lash out in frustration and rage. It could be very normal things like India taking care of its national security, or doing a more decent job than US in managing covid. Those things become “wrongs” that need to be “righted.”

That makes the India-bashers dangerous, like the Atlanta guy.
Skanda
BRFite
Posts: 327
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 02:19

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Skanda »

KLNMurthy wrote: A lot of white guys apparently harbor sexual objectification fantasies about east-southeast Asian women. They somehow see them as soft, docile and compliant. “Massage parlor” businesses intentionally cater to those fantasies. Usually the women there are severely exploited.
KLNM, not to take anything away from your post. But this stereotyping of a race is racism. Racism is about stereotypes and prejudices towards a race.
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6095
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by sanjaykumar »

Just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not out to get you.


Or, whatever that means.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4226
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Rudradev »

KLNMurthy wrote:
To tie it back to the thread, I have been thinking that a lot of the attitudes and behavior of USians and my fellow NRIs towards India is strikingly like the behavior of this guy towards the massage parlor women, minus the sexual element. They have a fantasy-image of India—docile, but also colorful, and maybe a passive receptacle for their charitable impulses; something on which to project their personal fantasies without cost or risk. When that fantasy is disrupted because of the reality of India, they lash out in frustration and rage. It could be very normal things like India taking care of its national security, or doing a more decent job than US in managing covid. Those things become “wrongs” that need to be “righted.”

That makes the India-bashers dangerous, like the Atlanta guy.
You nailed it.

Here's the guy's thought process: "I am sex-addicted. I am not to blame, because God loves me and Jesus forgives me. I must do something about my sex-addiction because I am a good Christian. What shall I do?

Well a junkie might flush his oxycontin down the toilet. A drunk might smash his liquor bottles. So I'm just going to go over there and destroy the *objects* to which I am compulsively addicted."

The keyword being "objects".

That's why it's racism.
Post Reply