India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

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sanman
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by sanman »

srin wrote:NATO+, if and it is a big IF, it ever happens, will be another form of Major Non-NATO ally. There is no way US will insist on Article 5 equivalent with NATO+. Not because India is going to refuse to take part in every US invasion but because US doesn't want to shed American blood for India's sake (in the event of war with Bakis or chinese).

So, I don't think there will be a %GDP or a collective defense clause.
Neither do they want to shed blood for us, nor do we want their bases on our soil.

NATO+ is just some temporary marketing tool, to bring more countries into the Western orbit. Look at how US has brokered an arms supply agreement between South Korea and Poland. So South Korea is now going to manufacture and export a variety of heavy weapons to Poland (which is of course subsidized by NATO/USA)

I can imagine Russia & China then turning to further support North Korea, in order to put more pressure on South Korea, and even Japan.

And actually, wouldn't even Japan feel a little concerned about a militarily invigorated South Korea? They seem to have buried the hatchet for now, but remember that Japan & China were also supposed to have buried that hatchet following Nixon-Kissinger tilt toward China. And we can see that hatchet got unburied fairly easily once China became strong enough. So I think Japan is always an inevitable loser from America's Atlantic-leaning tendencies.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by disha »

Amber G wrote: Meanwhile: "bin bulaya Mehman" and "Kitne Garcetti Ayae "Kitne Garcetti Gaye"
Amber, you forgot to add
Pyaar se Samjha Denge
The above was stated by none other than Hon. EAM Dr. Jaishankar. You can dig up the you tube video. Its there.

So Eric is indeed "Bin Bulaya Mehman" and we have to deal with Eric Garcetti, like any low level mujahid is dealt with. Diplomatically put: "Pyaar se samjha denge".
ricky_v wrote:i do not get the point of the above post, though i have narrowed it down to the following options:

a) the ambassador of one country met the foreign minister of the host country, shocking!! stop the presses

b) the most platitudinous of platitudes has been mouthed in a diplomatic photo-op session, declare the day as a national holiday, lower the flag to half-mast, distribute sweets and candies
Eric Garcetti even though sings only platitudes and is a bobble-head, sets up the narratives. This are the narratives that the GOI has to spend resources to counter.

US does this to gain leverage. For example, Imperious Obama in his visit to India lectured India on several items, including the GHG emissions. And Modi was put on spot in front of Obama and other dignitaries by both the foreign and Indian press (particularly the rNDTV types) on what will India do with its responsibility.

This was a loaded question, since any answer will tie India as a "responsible for GHGs", something US wants to get out of (being responsible) and put back the onus on India (remember the tripe that India is the 3rd largest producer of CO2 and largest producer of methane). India is working hard to ensure that it is known as a creation of developed world and the cost to be paid by developed world (West, Nordic countries, ANZ and Japan) and help developing nations (or the global south) to implement technologies for energy and mitigate GHGs in the process.

Again, answering the question would definitely shift the responsibility from US (leader of the bhesht) to India (an upcoming leader of the global south) and tied down India as just a "talking" entity if it does not deliver.

The above nuances, will not (and never will be) understood by rose tinted Obama fan club (and by extension Clintonite/Bidet fan club)*

You must see the video of that event. Modi had to master everything he had from within to bring this under control and save India. This is what leaders are made of.

Here is a link to the loaded question:

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/th ... blic-india
And, Mr. Prime Minister, I wanted to go back to climate change. White House officials have said that the recent U.S. -- that they hope that the recent U.S.-China agreement can spur countries like India to make similar commitments to cut emissions. I’m wondering if you feel any pressure to take that kind of action because of the China agreement. And can a Paris climate summit produce a substantial result without that type of commitment from India?
See the way the question is framed and where it ties down India (a. Similar agreement like China b. Paris climate summit etc). I will leave it up to you to dig the article above and how Modi sidestepped the whole thing and actually set a counter-narrative that is helping India even now. In a matter of few seconds (the above qstn. was an excellent googly and Modi hit it out of the stadium)

So Eric Garcetti coming to India is to setup narratives that US State Department will use as leverage on India. This noise is something GOI can do without. If Eric can really help, he can lean on Victoria Nuland to cut down visa appointment times. Something the supporters of the current admin in US has been very silent about. **

* This is where Trump differed. Trump was more transactional. Something India could work with easily and less of behind the backs skullduggery. And being a successful businessman, Trump was more inward looking and the country needed more inward looking assessment. Also Trump nixed the Paris climate summit, for good. Europe needs to step up and pay its share of the cost first. Starting from Nordic countries.

** The visa appointment times runs for a year for a simple visitor visa. This is actually human rights violation of the Indians in US. The delay in business visa appointment is in months. This hurts US-India business and relations (since it is a sore point). The Desis in US who support current Prez should do something about it.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Cyrano »

We should at some point stop hankering for US visas. GoI should do even more to up education and research at home. The current situation is a crude manifestation of power assymetry, and we need to start correcting it.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by williams »

Cyrano wrote:We should at some point stop hankering for US visas. GoI should do even more to up education and research at home. The current situation is a crude manifestation of power asymmetry, and we need to start correcting it.
That and more opportunities for educated youth will help, but it is a long-term thing. Currently, we have a lot of competing priorities
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by KLNMurthy »

Pratyush wrote:Cyrano,

Indian tragectory since 47 has been quite clear. India has never submitted to any one.

Not even when we were dependent on food aid from the US in the 60s. We developed the ability to feed ourselves.

During the most vulnerable period in 90s. When the US was jumping up and down for Kashmir. We did not flinch.

When the US turned a blind eye to PRC proliferation of nuclear weapons. India did not submit.

So why is it the USA doesnt get that India cannot be dominated?
Same reason why Mohd. of Ghori didn’t give up trying after being pushed back.

They only have to break through once, while we have to hold them off every single time.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by yensoy »

Cyrano wrote:We should at some point stop hankering for US visas. GoI should do even more to up education and research at home. The current situation is a crude manifestation of power assymetry, and we need to start correcting it.
Actually the US visa is a very reasonable thing. As painful as it is to get all the documentation in order and line up an appointment, (i) a visitor visa gives you 10 years of almost unrestricted access and (ii) renewals are trivial process as long as you haven't overstayed. I think if the visitor visa holder later goes to the US for any non-visitor purpose on a shorter term (say student) visa, upon expiry of the student visa their original tourist visa still holds. Passport expires, no problem, visa is good. How reasonable is that? Moreover, US is clearly non-racist in requiring visitor visas - its criterion for visa waiver is objective, based on the number of denials and/or number of overstayers. So if they need Indians to get a visa, there is a good, openly stated and data driven reason for doing so.

Try visiting Europe and you will understand the difference.

People go to US for a variety of reasons. It is still the world leader in business and technology, it is a great vacation destination and of course there are millions who have family in the US. To make it less asymmetric, we need more Americans to visit India.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by disha »

Cyrano'ji, people will still need to travel. For Business. As Students. For visiting family. As India grows, there will be lot of travel between two countries. Note that US is 300+ million population and India is 1.4 Billion population. If 1% from US travel to India and 0.25% travel from India to US, we are talking about some 6 million person travels in a year! That is 500k every month and approx. 15000 travels between India/US every day.
yensoy wrote:
Cyrano wrote:We should at some point stop hankering for US visas. GoI should do even more to up education and research at home. The current situation is a crude manifestation of power assymetry, and we need to start correcting it.
Actually the US visa is a very reasonable thing.
Yensoy'ji, it might be reasonable for you. Here is the appointment waiting time at Chennai consulate:
Interview Required Students/Exchange Visitors (F, M, J) 56 Calendar Days
Interview Required Petition-Based Temporary Workers (H, L, O, P, Q) 148 Calendar Days
Interview Required Crew and Transit (C, D, C1/D) 77 Calendar Days
Interview Required Visitors (B1/B2) 340 Calendar Days
Interview Waiver Crew and Transit (C, D, C1/D) 31 Calendar Days
Which one do you think is reasonable? Also US visa wait times should be compared with US visa wait times only across two countries. For example between India and China. Not with EU visa. For example compare with New Delhi consulate with Beijing. Mumbai with Shanghai. Please do.

And do tell me that if you have a loved one in US & is impacted (accident/hospitalization/baby) and you are in India and need to travel for the first time now, and require an interview, that 340 days before you get the appointment is very reasonable thing. For example, in 340 days, a baby can be conceived and delivered. Very reasonably.

This should go into Indian psyche thread, if there is one. We compare apples with oranges and say that since we do not have to peel apples like bananas, eating a pineapple is a very reasonable thing.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Cyrano »

I started my post above with "at some point of time" because I understand all the needs to travel to US to meet friends and family, especially in critical situations.

Some time back I came to know that a H1-B holder who comes back to India has to once again get his passport stamped in India before travelling back to the US. Don't know when this was enforced but some years ago I never heard of it. This is a ridiculous rule. What is the need for this "stamping" when the H1B was issued after extensive documentation was submitted, evaluated and approved by US administration, the person has already travelled to the US and had to R2I for something? Haven't heard of any EU country requiring this.

This is clearly a rule to impose hardship, which is exponentially amplified by very long waiting times.

US, CAN & EU countries ALL use a single service provider VFS (owned by German Kuoni travel industry group) which adds its own arbitrary rules and their constraints or lack of capacity are added to the consulates' processing times to net net extend wait times beyond reasonable. Wholesale outsourcing to VFS was done a few years ago to "reduce consulate staff" and save money. But visa fees have only increased manyfold. Plus some bloody US dept website to register before you travel to get another "stamp" or whatever (not limited to Indians, but still). BTW, many Indian consulates abroad also use the same blighted VFS.

This whole visa business is a financial scam for cashing in on raising income levels of Indians, money sloshing in Indian corporates who simply add it to their service costs. For all I know these consulates are not only able to break even but might actually be turning around some profit.

Indian visitors to US on business travel spend as much as any other for accommodation and local expenses. More and more people do high end shopping in the US & EU sometimes buying an expensive Hermes dress or DNKY jeans that is made in India or China or Turkey, Vietnam etc. Only family visitors may be low spenders.

I believe (havent studied this deeply) that the current visa bottlenecks are the gift of Nuland smarting from her Delhi shafting on Ukraine, and got relayed to EU which has also adopted some of the same methods. Blinken when questioned on this situation blamed it on Covid. But that doesnt explain why the situation has to endure for months and months now.

Bottomline: This visa stuff is some form of putting brown Indians in their place and remind them that they have to stand in line for hours and days and get humiliated even before setting foot on the lands of plenty. Creates pressure and tradeoff points with GoI at no cost. Besides pushing by MEA with their counterparts, there is actually very little GoI can do, when the demand is skyrocketing year after year. Going reciprocal on this will be counter productive given we need FDI ityadi.

The only remedy is to curtail our own urge to go bidesh, and I understand that will take a lot of time, and no one needs to be blamed for it.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Zynda »

Cyrano wrote:What is the need for this "stamping" when the H1B was issued after extensive documentation was submitted, evaluated and approved by US administration, the person has already travelled to the US and had to R2I for something?
Because the H1B work permit is issued by USCIS & actual visa (stamp that goes on passport) is issued by Department of Homeland Security (or State Dept if not DHS)...two different organisations. Also if the person has travelled to US on Student visa and switched over to work permit (H1B), then once that person travel outside of US, they would need a new visa stamp which reflects their current visa status.

But what is screwed up is, since H1B permit is tied to an employer, if your have a H1B stamp with employer 1 name and while in US if you change jobs and then leave US, you would need a fresh visa stamp with employer 2 name on it before you can re-enter US. Convoluted process for sure but thousands do it willingly to get a piece of better life I guess.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Cyrano »

Zynda ji,
Because the H1B work permit is issued by USCIS & actual visa (stamp that goes on passport) is issued by Department of Homeland Security (or State Dept if not DHS)...two different organisations.
Thats normal, its the same in EU countries as well. WP approval and visa issuance to enter territory are issued by 2 different orgs, the second based on the first. And once you enter the territory, you need to furnish proof of address, social security registration etc to get a 1 or X year residence permit and renew it based on continued employment/studies etc.

The second example you give also seems normal to me. In the case where you have gone to US on an H1-B visa, and you return to India and want to go back to US on the same H1B visa, same employer etc, do you still need to get a "stamping" to renter US ? If yes, that's needlessly onerous.

Getting a stamping in case of change of status from student to worker or change of employer and then your R2I does seem reasonable. So if it's not over complicated regulation, then it is mostly due to consular bottle necks which can be fixed if there is a will. Right ?
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by vcsekhar »

Cyrano wrote:I started my post above with "at some point of time" because I understand all the needs to travel to US to meet friends and family, especially in critical situations.
Some time back I came to know that a H1-B holder who comes back to India has to once again get his passport stamped in India before travelling back to the US. Don't know when this was enforced but some years ago I never heard of it. This is a ridiculous rule. What is the need for this "stamping" when the H1B was issued after extensive documentation was submitted, evaluated and approved by US administration, the person has already travelled to the US and had to R2I for something? Haven't heard of any EU country requiring this.
This is clearly a rule to impose hardship, which is exponentially amplified by very long waiting times.
I don't know exactly when this change was made, but, I think it was after 9/11. I was in college at that time and I know a lot of people who would go to Mexico and Canada to get their H1B's stamped on their passport. They later changed the process so that you had to go to your home country for the visa stamping. I do not remember the rational for the change but it was possibly due to "security" reasons :roll:
I remember coming back home after my college and starting my job, got the H1 paperwork and came for a vacation and included getting my visa stamped in 2001. So this is nothing new. It was easy to use this excuse at the time for a longer vacation too :D
Apart from this all your other points can be debated to infinity and beyond, but, the bottom line is that people in india want to go the US and are willing to put up with all the nonsense. But, the US commerce dept also knows how much tourism and education dollars are brought in by Indians and that is why they give a 10 year visa without too much fuss unlike the idiotic visa policies of the Europeans.
cheers...
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by sanman »

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by SSridhar »

Ambitious roadmap': India, US agree to deepen defence ties to counter China - ToI
India and the US on Monday discussed an ambitious five-year roadmap to upgrade defence partnership — with particular focus on identifying ways to strengthen industrial cooperation — as both countries grapple with China’s economic rise and increased belligerence in the Indo-Pacific region and beyond.

US defense secretary Lloyd Austin met his counterpart Rajnath Singh in New Delhi and explored ways of building resilient supply chains and “identify opportunities for the co-development of new technologies and co-production of existing and new systems and facilitate increased collaboration between defense startup ecosystems of the two countries", said a statement by the Indian defence ministry.

They also discussed regional security issues given their shared interest in maintaining peace and stability in the Indo-Pacific region.

Defence contracts

Austin's trip to New Delhi comes ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Washington on June 22, and has fuelled speculation about a possible announcement of defence contracts.

India is looking to buy 18 armed high-altitude long-endurance unmanned aerial vehicles from General Atomics Aeronautical Systems Inc. for an estimated $1.5 billion to $2 billion. The UAVs would likely be deployed along its restive borders with China and Pakistan and in the strategic Indian Ocean region.

Joint production and manufacture of combat aircraft engines, infantry combat vehicles, howitzers and their precision ordnance were also discussed last month in Washington at a meeting of the US-India Defense Policy Group.

India has been looking for manufacturing of jet engines in India under the framework of technology transfer to power its fighter aircraft.
In June 2016, the US designated India a "Major Defence Partner" paving way for sharing of critical military equipment and technology.

This is Austin's second visit to India. His previous trip to India was in March 2021.

Eye on China

The US defense trade with India has risen from near zero in 2008 to over $20 billion in 2020. Major Indian purchases from the US included long-range maritime patrol aircraft, C-130 transport aircraft, missiles and drones.

Ties between India and US have been on an upswing in the last few years amid China's growing assertion in the Indo-Pacific region and along its borders with India.

Both India and US have also signed key defence pacts and have deepened cooperation as part of the QUAD security group, which also include Japan and Australia.

Closer ties

In May last year, PM Modi and President Joe Biden had announced the US-India initiative on Critical and Emerging Technology (iCET) to elevate and expand the strategic technology partnership and defence industrial cooperation between the two countries.

The iCET is expected to forge closer linkages between the government, academia and industry of the two countries in areas such as artificial intelligence, quantum computing, 5G and 6G, biotech, space and semiconductors.

The two countries have inked key defence and security pacts over the past few years, including the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA) in 2016 that allows their militaries to use each other's bases for repair and replenishment of supplies.

India and the US also signed COMCASA (Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement) in 2018 which provides for interoperability between the two militaries and provides for the sale of high-end technology from the US to India. In October 2020, India and the US sealed the BECA (Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement) agreement to further boost bilateral defence ties.

The pact provides for sharing of high-end military technology, logistics and geospatial maps between the two countries.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Cyrano »

Nothing new has been announced it seems...
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by SSridhar »

India, US finalise roadmap for defence-­industrial cooperation - ToI
India and the US on Monday set the stage for clinching the mega project to co-produce fighter jet engines during PM Narendra Modi’s visit to Washington later this month, while also deciding to further strengthen operational military cooperation in the Indo-Pacific with an eye firmly on “the bullying and coercion” by China.

he delegation-level meeting between defence minister Rajnath Singh and US secretary of defence Lloyd Austin here concluded a new ambitious defence-industrial cooperation roadmap to fast-track technology collaboration and co-production of existing as well as futuristic weapon systems and platforms. The areas range from air combat, infantry combat vehicles and ISR (intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance) systems to long-range artillery, smart munitions and underwater domain awareness.

The immediate takeaway will be the inking of the major pact between US company General Electric (GE) and defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics to jointly produce GE-F414 turbofan engines in the 98 Kilonewton thrust class in India.

“There will be virtually 100% ToT (transfer of technology) for the GE-F414 engines, which will power the indigenous Tejas Mark-2 fighters (existing Tejas Mark-1 jets have less powerful GE-F404 engines procured without any ToT). Other projects like the co-production of Stryker armoured fighting vehicles, long-range artillery and ISR systems are in the discussion stage,” a source told TOI.

The roadmap is also likely to facilitate the ToT and setting up of MRO facilities that India is pushing for under the long-pending deal for acquisition of armed Predator or MQ-9B Sea Guardian drones.

During the delegation-level meeting, sources said India briefed the US on the “aggressive intent” shown by China along the 3,488-km Line of Actual Control amid the continuing military confrontation in eastern Ladakh.

“India also underlined the fact that China and Pakistan act in collusion and should be seen as a single entity. Islamabad should not be trusted with western defence equipment,” a source said.

On the bilateral front, India and the US committed to collaborating even more closely in support of their “shared vision” for a free, open and inclusive Indo-Pacific. They also agreed to strengthen operational collaboration across all military services, with the aim to support India’s leading role as a security provider in the Indo-Pacific.

Austin said the deepening India-US partnership shows how technological innovation and growing military cooperation between the two “great powers” can be a force for global good.

“We all face a rapidly changing world. We see bullying and coercion from the People's Republic of China and Russian aggression against Ukraine that seeks to redraw borders and threatens national sovereignty as well as transnational challenges like terrorism and climate change,” he said.
Stressing that the US was not trying to establish a NATO-like structure in the Indo-Pacific, Austin said, “We continue to work with like-minded countries to ensure the region remains free and open so that commerce can prosper and ideas can continue to be exchanged. We will continue that work.”

Singh, in turn, said, “India-US partnership is critical for ensuring a free, open and rules-bound Indo-Pacific region. We look forward to closely working with the US across the domains for capacity-building and further consolidating our strategic partnership.”

The new defence-industrial cooperation roadmap “aims to change the paradigm for cooperation” between the two countries, with a set of specific proposals that could provide India access to cutting-edge technologies and support its defence modernization plans, the US statement said.
The two countries also pledged to review the regulatory hurdles impeding closer industry-to-industry cooperation and to initiate negotiations on a “Security of Supply Arrangement” and a “Reciprocal Defence Procurement Agreement” that will promote long-term stability of supply chains.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by A_Gupta »

Amber G.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Amber G. »

Thanks for posting a sensible post.


Yes, US Defence secretary is India. India's PM will be on a official state visit in US - First such official visit in recent history. (Last such visit AFAIK was in more than 60 years ago).

Among other things, PM is invited to speak at the joint session of Congress.

Image

I know a large number of posters here in Brf has so much negativity (including incredible ignorance and bigotry masquerading as pompous 'we know it all yaar'.. better than GoI.

Coming back to your post.. allow a recent comment by a well known think tank in US . I am paraphrasing:
Aquilino speaking to a Chinese senior colonel.

"when [India's] sovereignty was challenged and they needed assistance the US delivered."

Translation:

"Remember that time you attacked India at the border. We had their back."
Image
(Newitem source:
Last edited by Amber G. on 06 Jun 2023 20:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by SSridhar »

While saying 'Go to Delhi and see for yourself'. John Kirby also hinted that such issues would be brought up in discussions. I am sure that the Indian side would give suitable replies but as a dear friend, it wouldn't also hesitate to bring up issues such as police violence, human-rights violations, deteriorating democratic norms, Hindu-phobia, religious intolerance etc in the US. Last year, Blinken hinted that Jaishankar brought up those issues with him.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Amber G. »

ricky_v wrote:I do not get the point of the above post, [the above post was about US ambassador being welcomed in India] ..
I am sure you don't [get the point] but for anyone with an iota of understanding of India-US relationship will get the point that there is nothing nefarious when a ambassador from one country is welcomed by a friendly country. /sigh/
disha wrote:
Amber G wrote: Meanwhile: "bin bulaya Mehman" and "Kitne Garcetti Ayae "Kitne Garcetti Gaye"
<snip>
So Eric is indeed "Bin Bulaya Mehman" and we have to deal with Eric Garcetti, like any low level mujahid .
<snip>


Wow! I am glad India's PM/EAM has better sense!
But Dishaji - since you graciously offered to help me to do a write-up on Prof. Roddam Narasimha, let me return the favor --
1 - I am as unlikely to ask such help from Dr. Audrey Truschke as from you.
2 - *please* stop such 'analysis' ... not exaggerating ... this is becoming as tiresome as Dr. Audrey's Truschke pearls of wisdom.
Image

Seriously folks - stop mirroring and becoming twin of Dr. Audrey's Truschke .. if you wanted to be taken seriously.. (after a while "US ambassador must resign' becomes as tiresome as 'Modi must resign' /sigh/

I can understand why likes of Truschke and Raquib Hammed types are having heartburn to see closer relationship between US and India .. but so many rakshaks too? /sigh/
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Cyrano »

Arrey Amber G,
Aap itney sensitive kyon ho rahe ho? If not for a bit of banter, humor, a few jingo bravado gupshup talk BRF too boring hojayega.

Seriously we all can read news items but parse differently. All of us want Bharat to keep rising, don't we?

Thoda chill !!
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Y I Patel »

A few years ago, whenever the GE F414 deal came up it was in connection with sale of some F series aircraft. No mention of that sale anymore which is significant.

Has engine deal been delinked from a MMRCA sale?
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Y I Patel »

The USA now has far greater desire than India will allow for it to be involved in India-China dispute.

India’s strategy is to dangle the prospect of greater American involvement with both China and America

Pretty smart approach, if you ask me
Last edited by Y I Patel on 06 Jun 2023 22:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by disha »

Amber G. wrote:Wow! I am glad India's PM/EAM has better sense!
That's why we support the PM and EAM. I think you are johnny come lately on the above bandwagon to support Modi.

There is a search option on this forum and you can go back. As far back as you want. And I had a different nom-de-guerre when the forum was established and when it came to prominence during Kargil days. Anyway, what you do not know, you do not know.

But what you must know is that Garcetti is an idiot and a piece of shyte. He did not even know (or knew but keep his eyes, mouth and ear shut) about the hanky panky going under him. Check it out. It is all over the news.

Amber G. wrote:Seriously folks - stop mirroring and becoming twin of Dr. Audrey's Truschke .. if you wanted to be taken seriously.. (after a while "US ambassador must resign' becomes as tiresome as 'Modi must resign' /sigh/
Of course, US Ambassador must resign. He is an idiot and piece of shyte and supported by all the Desis who love to genuflect and win approval from the establishment. I have seen several such genuflectors in real life, so it is easy to call out one. And while you are at it, can you tell us what is going on with the caste bill?

And the correct terminology is "Mudi must rezine"* (not Modi). And the way it is used is not the way you suggest. You might be great at analyzing equations, but I do not think you understand satire, rhetoric, humour, dark comedy etc.

For example the movie AmericaThon (released in 1979) will be beyond you. It is highly recommended movie. Or even simpler movies like Coneheads. Leave alone this slide https://www.theonion.com/elon-musk-cens ... /slides/12 (
“Censorship isn’t about what you can’t say in India or Turkey, it’s about what my kids tell me I can’t say at my own Thanksgiving table.”
)

So yes, for installing Sengol in India's parliament instead of letting it to be great Lehru's walking stick in Allahabad museum, fascist "mudi must rezine" *

* PS: Do you even know who coined the term, where was it coined, how it is used and how it got popularized? And BTW who was the brain behind 'Operation Sengol'?
AmberG. wrote:I can understand why likes of Truschke and Raquib Hammed types are having heartburn to see closer relationship between US and India .. but so many rakshaks too? /sigh/
Who is Audrey? And Raquib? Are they husband-wife duo? Anyway, I would humbly suggest from what you posted on Audrey that you stay away from Audrey. Audrey seems to be very toxic and must have some parental upbringing issues.

On the other hand, want to join in writing a piece on Rana Ayyub? Her article is on WaPo https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... ncitement/.

Also Rana Ayyub is a celebrated journo, https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 16548.html
WASHINGTON, May 4, 2023 Following is a statement from Eileen O'Reilly president of the National Press Club.

"On World Press Freedom Day, the Club released an interview with Indian journalist Rana Ayyub about the challenges she continues to have working in journalism – including harassment from the public and the government. It was my honor to conduct the interview which you can find here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKLkRgCs8IE

In the interview, I inform Rana that the Press Club is naming her an honorary member. She is the first Indian journalist to receive this honor. In 2022, Rana was named the Club's John Aubuchon honoree. She was also the first Indian journalist to receive that honor. For a democracy to function as intended, a healthy and free press is essential. And the rights of minority press must be respected, in addition to those of the majority. Rana loves her country, even though some of her writing is critical of the government. Despite the significant pressure against her, she continues to write and speak out in ways that are helpful to Indian democracy. She has our admiration for this and our full support. We will continue to monitor her situation including the challenges against her. We wish her all the best for World Press Freedom Day and every day...
https://twitter.com/RanaAyyub/status/16 ... gr%5Etweet

Check Rana's tweet out today

Amber et al, A personal tidbit on Rana. She loves sandwiches.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by RoyG »

She’s smart. Proly minting money with all these contacts.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Y I Patel »

I suspect that G’s goal in becoming Ambassador to India was to affect a political makeover from being a huge China supporter. That is something he shares with a large chunk of American establishment.

Disha unfortunately this exchange with Amber is becoming blue on blue at a personal level. As another resident of LA famously said, can’t we just get along?
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by disha »

Y I Patel wrote:I suspect that G’s goal in becoming Ambassador to India was to affect a political makeover from being a huge China supporter. That is something he shares with a large chunk of American establishment.
Of course local politics is impacting international relations. On G's goal it may be that they are looking at a political makeover from being a China supporter to India supporter, but why? and why now?

My line of thought is contrarian. And several threads are intertwined. Politics, Economics, Strategic alliances and Tactical cooperation.

1. They do not want a small but powerful base shifting to Republicans. Trump started the shift, and in several local areas it is accelerating. Hence the political makeover.

2. Leverage on India. What are the soft and hard options to gain leverage? In any business negotiations, what are your leverage? Similarly, in any geo-political discussions, what are your leverages*?

*What are the soft and hard leverages? How will you affect an outcome that puts you in better negotiating position. Hence the constant drumbeat about "Democracy in danger", "minorities need a voice", "no room for dissent" etc.

2a. The soft leverages are listed above. That include taking all paths to push India into a corner. Show India more of a 3rd world basket case country which needs help, particularly monetary help (and intertwining US NGO army will provide the help at 90% cut and extending the leverage of the establishment locally within US and into India).**

2b. A great hard leverage will be to actually affect political outcomes. Remember the visits by Hillary Clinton and Victoria Nuland. To W.Bengal. TN. Gujarat. Support for Pappu and his PappuGanda (Propaganda).

2c. A spectacular hard leverage will be the ability to actually create and exploit fissures. The question we should ask ourselves is this: Is Pax Americana a zero sum game? Or can it become Pax Indo-Americana?

3. Economic/Business leverage. This is very simple. If Amazons, Teslas, Microsofts, GEs, Boeings etc can sell goods and services to Indians in India without having to make a local effort (zero cost, max profit), then they will strive to do so. What is the leverage that China has on Tesla which India does not have?

4. Strategic alliances. US is slowly coming to the realization that it cannot have a lone ranger "my way or highway" strategy. It needs strategic alliances for the next 30-40 years. But how will you bag an elephant like India on to your corner? Hence the hits on GHGs (methane from cows included)/environment/pollution (see Niki Haley's comments), Gas to europeon gas bags etc.

5. Tactical alliances. What happens if some indonesian renegades with help from cambodia and myanmar rebels supported by Cheen land up in western australia? Not feasible? Remember Maldives? How can Diego Garcia be protected?

*Several of Indian immigrants are first generation techies and not used to the sales bargaining tactics. Few have reached to CEO levels, but we are underrepresented in sales. And that is where the negotiation tactics and strategy are honed. Thankfully, GOI has a master salesperson at helm with a superlative team. Even a billionaire ex-president vouched for him and his team.

** At one point, I was associated with a NGO funded by Ford Foundation. And yes, if you hear the term "5* NGO", moi have coined it. I have seen how 5* NGOs work.
Disha unfortunately this exchange with Amber is becoming blue on blue at a personal level. As another resident of LA famously said, can’t we just get along?
YIP, I need help. I really need help on the following:

1. Raise voice and concern about thousands of Indians stuck in the "waiting for green card" loop. Every time any US politician stands up for illegal immigrant from south, they also need to acknowledge the legal and contributing to US economy positively immigrants and their plight and strive to do something about it. Solutions abound. To start with US politicians need to start talking about it. And for that the Desi base in US needs to show some spine.

1a. It is a mere artifact that the visa appointment times are so long. It might be fine with some, but it is not fine since a very large group is impacted. This has created lot of angst between Indians and Americans.

2. Raise voice and concern about immature hits both locally and internationally. For example, the SB403 caste bill in CA. What does it do? Why no panel of intellectual Indians in high offices came out against that bill? Why no CEO is talking about it? What about the immature hit jobs from NYTimes, WaPo, WSJ?

3. Last thing desis in US must become is a votebank. There are several tactical and strategic areas where a win-win-win outcome actually works (unlike zero sum outcome, my win must be at your loss).

4. Acknowledge that E. G from LA is a Pappu. GOI will definitely entertain him. Too bad that Appu Ghar in Delhi does not exist. GoI could have given him a tour of Appu Ghar. Like it did to Australian Foreign Minister (higher in rank than US Ambassador) post '98.
Last edited by disha on 07 Jun 2023 01:43, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by disha »

RoyG wrote:She’s smart. Proly minting money with all these contacts.
Everyone needs a livelihood. That's not the issue.

People in one of the oldest profession have higher moral scruples than Rana Sandwich :) And that's the tale.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Vayutuvan »

Amber G. wrote:
Aquilino speaking to a Chinese senior colonel.
"when [India's] sovereignty was challenged and they needed assistance the US delivered."
Translation:
"Remember that time you attacked India at the border. We had their back."
@AmberG sir, I have no idea what this has got anything to do with the current situation. A lot of water has flown in Ganga including 1971 7th fleet visiting Bay of Bengal. It is all ancient history. Nobody can deny that there is trust deficit on the part of PM Modi's admin vis a vis American intentions, given that Garcetti came two years too late. Even before that we Americans did intrude into Indian maritime waters claiming that we had the right of the way. This happened without any provocation from India. There is nothing wrong in India trying to drive a hard bargain while talking nice with us. Bon homie, yes. India can throw a welcome (and did too for Obama) as much as Biden admin is trying to do now. That doesn't mean that India or for that matter we should fold and start licking ... nvm.

Indians do remember Sabre jets to Paxistan in addition to we sending arms to them in 1962. Indians remember and today grateful for PL480. I still remember the taste of the midday meal consisting of cornmeal upma and milk made from Amru milk powder. That doesn't mean that I am indebted to Amrus forever. I have done enough for the Amrus and paid back the debt with interest many times over.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by sanman »

A_Gupta wrote:

The "journalist" questioning Indian democracy and calling Modi "authoritarian" was Asma Khalid of NPR (National Public Radio), left-leaning media organization in the US which is largely funded from the coffers of the US Democratic Party.

https://www.npr.org/people/459062304/asma-khalid

Asma Khalid is of course born to immigrants from Pakistan. She wears the headscarf, so she's clearly a religious conservative.
Last edited by sanman on 07 Jun 2023 04:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Najunamar »

Vayutuvan wrote:
Amber G. wrote: AmberG sir, I have no idea what this has got anything to do with the current situation. That doesn't mean that I am indebted to Amrus forever. I have done enough for the Amrus and paid back the debt with interest many times over.
This echoes my sentiments. Neither does India expect America to be grateful for the hydroquinone shipments :rotfl:

It is natural for countries to adopt a wait and see attitude when faced with a history of actions inimical to their interests. Please note the self interest angle has been considered but it is not providing any direct value to US despite which she has lent considerable support to totalitarian regimes selectively while spouting platitudes about democracy and shared values.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Amber G. »

Vayutuvan wrote:
Amber G. wrote:
@AmberG sir, I have no idea what this has got anything to do with the current situation. .
You too Vayutvus!!! you are missing the point..It is just a news item and comment about the current situation /sigh/
(Hint: Just read the link I posted .. fairly clear it is what it is..Situations do not remain the same or just what you of me just imagine.
(Another hint: audience of the comment is NOT india ( and *certainly* not brf " experts" :rotfl: ) but it was told by US to China..in a powerplay between china vs US )
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Amber G. »

Cyrano wrote:Arrey Amber G,
Aap itney sensitive kyon ho rahe ho? If not for a bit of banter, humor, a few jingo bravado gupshup talk BRF too boring hojayega.

Seriously we all can read news items but parse differently. All of us want Bharat to keep rising, don't we?

Thoda chill !!
Arrey Cyanoji. Aap itney obstinate kyon ho rahe ho? if this is bit of banter, humor , and few jingo bavdo , Rahul Gandhi's current US statements are pearl of wisdom..and Rana Ayuub type constat rants are just trying to save the democracy.

Seriously anybody who want Bharat to keep rising do not keep repeating : (a direct quote just repeated *again*)
Of course, US Ambassador must resign. He is an idiot..
Stating obvious - India's PM is is not asking for any resignation, in fact he is coming to US as a state guest.
Seriously should any one has any more respect for such absurd statements.. Do you really think that these guys are any different that Rana Ayuub or Rahul Gandhi? Seriously????

Anyway I take your advice of 'thoda chill.. . but let me post something which is giving lot of heartburn to some...:)
Image
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Vayutuvan »

@AmberG saaru, that is funny. I hope there is no redux of the incident of party-crashing social climbers during Dr. MMS' State Dinner. It would show the US security establishment in a terrible light.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by A_Gupta »

I think the serious point is how much Garcetti is playing to a domestic audience for his future political or think-tank career and how much does he represent US policy that will outlast his tenure as ambassador?

E.g., per someone on youtube (maybe it was Abhijit Iyer-Mitra), the Delhi US embassy staff under the in-charge just prior to Garcetti was telling visiting American businessmen during informal social hour type situations to not invest in India. I don't think that reflects the attitude of highest levels of the US State Department, but what do I know.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by Vayutuvan »

"was telling visiting American businessmen during informal social hour type situations to not invest in India".

If true, these people should be named, shamed, and their names should be dragged through mud by US NRIs. This is a direct hit on a democratic ally of the US.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by NRao »

A_Gupta wrote:I think the serious point is how much Garcetti is playing to a domestic audience for his future political or think-tank career and how much does he represent US policy that will outlast his tenure as ambassador?

E.g., per someone on youtube (maybe it was Abhijit Iyer-Mitra), the Delhi US embassy staff under the in-charge just prior to Garcetti was telling visiting American businessmen during informal social hour type situations to not invest in India. I don't think that reflects the attitude of highest levels of the US State Department, but what do I know.
Meccan Islam, Sir.

There is no way the spots can change.

Modi ji has packed his vagh nakh.

BTW, perhaps a coincidence, but, that picture of Biden ji and Modi ji is very similar to that of Afzal Khan and Shivaji.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by disha »

SSridhar wrote:While saying 'Go to Delhi and see for yourself'. John Kirby also hinted that such issues would be brought up in discussions.

I am sure that the Indian side would give suitable replies but as a dear friend, it wouldn't also hesitate to bring up issues such as police violence, human-rights violations, deteriorating democratic norms, Hindu-phobia, religious intolerance etc in the US. Last year, Blinken hinted that Jaishankar brought up those issues with him.
Precisely on the bolded part and also on the italicized part. However this "friendly banter" does have a tendency to go out of hand. For example, ppl like E.G. They are tools for a purpose. If the current US admin was indeed serious to begin with, a proper ambassador would have been sent right away instead of sending a fool at the sunset of the administration.

The targeting on certain fissures is going to go deeper and going to get dirtier. People are already getting hurt in this "friendly banter".

What is the point in saying soothing platitudes, after doing the hit? Of course the GOI also knows the hit job and as much as EAM mentioned in several forums and several times, that the campaign for 2024 elections has begun outside of India, before it began in India.

To serious observers who do not get impressed by platitudes, it has been very evident that US SD plays the "bad cop" role and US Pentagon/US Defense plays the "good cop" role. There are good reasons for that too.

Anyway, the following banter was at the Shangri-La dialogue happening in S'gapore arranged by IISS. It is interesting that the news source is hidden away in a small link after the quote.
Amber G. wrote:Aquilino speaking to a Chinese senior colonel.

"when [India's] sovereignty was challenged and they needed assistance the US delivered."

Translation:

"Remember that time you attacked India at the border. We had their back."
Here is the source of the above: Tanvi Madan, Senior Fellow at Brookings Institute, Twitter thread https://twitter.com/tanvi_madan/status/ ... 19745?s=20

*Tanvi Madan has an interesting arc. She is the DDM of the analcysts which the foggy bottom produces. At one point, Tanvi Madan claimed that Indian democracy was saved by CIA. And Indians need to be thankful to CIA. In her endeavours, she is ably supported by:
“As tensions between China and India heat up, Madan’s book provides a useful reminder that China has been a key driver that has either separated or conjoined India and the United States.”—Daniel Drezner, The Washington Post
I thought it was Columbus quest for India that conjoined India and the US. And by fanbois of her only book
5.0 out of 5 stars Accessible, Definitive Analysis of Epochal Events
Reviewed in the United States on February 22, 2020
Written by one of the most astute analysts of Indian foreign policy since independence,...
---

Make no mistake, the current US Biden admin is on its last leg and will go out soon. The Biden administration lost the momentum on foreign relations and of course its relations with India built up during the Trump administration and are now working hard to gain back the initiative, lost to various out-of-control vested interests within the US admin.

The only thing that has come out of this visit is Modi's address to the US Congress. And that buries this ghost from the past created by the US State Department

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-narend ... 1399062010
Why Narendra Modi Was Banned From the U.S.
Narendra Modi is the only person ever denied a U.S. visa based on a little-known law on religious freedom.
Now why the US Ambassador to India matters? Oldies on the forum know Kala-Vasihat. Yeah, US ambassador to India. The US Ambassador to India during the Modi Visa drama was David C. Mulford. An interesting tidbit, as vice-chairman of CSFB, he and his group made $90 million (yes that is $90 million in 1994 & $180 million inflation adjusted) during the Argentine finance crisis. And yes, everyone knows about Nancy Powell (US Amb. during the Devyani Khobragade incident).

Does certain forum members know about Atul Keshap? A career diplomat? I would have been very happy if Biden govt. had appointed Nisha Desai Biswal as US ambassador to India.

https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/eri ... sadorship/

And not a moron like E. G. Read his saga here:
Eric Garcetti’s former communications director Naomi Seligman has been telling anyone who will listen—including the U.S. Senate—that the man who would be ambassador to India oversaw a culture of “sexual battery” at City Hall. Does her story hold up? Or is Garcetti the one being victimized?
https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/ins ... -garcetti/

I am just disappointed that a negligent mayor who oversaw a culture of "sexual battery" at LA City Hall is supported by some stalwarts here. And that to as a hosannah to US-India relations!

Garcetti might have done no crime. But his embrace of woke politics and actively seeking to raise "Human rights" issues in India is a serious concern. And this comes at a crucial time between US-India relations.

Biden govt. had to salvage all of this (particularly after the Ukraine pressure and the Gas to gasbags in europe fiasco) by inviting Modi to address the US congress.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by disha »

Vayutuvan wrote:@AmberG saaru, that is funny. I hope there is no redux of the incident of party-crashing social climbers during Dr. MMS' State Dinner. It would show the US security establishment in a terrible light.
^Above is old news. The Joe Biden mention to Modi about how much it is sought after. It was during the G7 summit and on the sidelines of Indo-Pacific summit between India, US, Japan & Aus.

More than showing US Security establishment in terrible light, I do hope that the party-crashing social climbers are not woke and have their own anti-India agenda. And hurt Modi in anyway.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by disha »

NRao wrote:Meccan Islam, Sir.

There is no way the spots can change.

Modi ji has packed his vagh nakh.

BTW, perhaps a coincidence, but, that picture of Biden ji and Modi ji is very similar to that of Afzal Khan and Shivaji.
There is no icon for Dandavat pranaam, NRao'ji :D . But the thought counts. <Pranaam>
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Post by disha »

Vayutuvan wrote:"was telling visiting American businessmen during informal social hour type situations to not invest in India".

If true, these people should be named, shamed, and their names should be dragged through mud by US NRIs. This is a direct hit on a democratic ally of the US.
It is true and one does not go after prawns & minions. The fight has to be done at a bigger level. Hint: SB403.
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