India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

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chola
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby chola » 13 Oct 2018 13:31

Y. Kanan wrote:
Austin wrote:India's decision on buying oil from Iran, defence system from Iran, defence system from Russia not helpful: US

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst



Outrageous hypocrisy. F*ck these people, seriously. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've had it with this bullying. It's humiliating.

Enough is enough with this "relationship". It's a one-sided affair where we get battered daily and keep coming back for more. This is Stockholm Syndrome on a national level.


Iran and Russia are their enemies so what is Unkil to do? And what exactly are those nations doing for us?

Both Iran and Russia enhance chini power while the US is single-handedly challenging the PRC across the board. A single port at Chabahar means chit when the whole of Iran is open to chini OBOR infrastructure. Russia sells us S-400 that it already sold to Cheen.

We need to stop these delusions about Russia and Iran. Relations with them does NOTHING to enhance our position in the world.

There are times when history is in the making and you need to get off the fence. We sat on the fence with Nehru pandering to the USSR and were left behind by the Four Tigers and then Cheen. Lest we forget, the PRC was poorer than we were in the 1970s when they embraced the United States under Nixon and they are now five times our GDP.

The world is changing again under the US. So are we going to sit once more like we did with NAM? Those supply chains fleeing Cheen in the coming decade can land anywhere the US deems fit.

They will create the next Tigers. Are we going to sit on that fence playing “non-aligned” and watching them grow just like we did with the first four Tigers?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Prasad » 13 Oct 2018 13:54

Chola,
We are not fighting just Winnie the Pooh. Everybody is out to get us. Just because Winnie is next door doesn't discount threat from others or them trying to gain an advantage from us citing the big bad bear. Tomorrow if the Chinese play nice n do taqqiyaa by burying the MIC program and Democrats get reelected, guess who is going to get the shaft?

We cannot give long term concessions in the name of tactical thinking. To get the business that may flee china, we need to create the conditions necessary here. That needs political will, not kowtowing to the Americans/beg. The Chinese market & strategic that to the Russians that they posed were useful to the Americans/Nixon. Now when they're threatening the superiority of the Americans in the future, they're getting targeted. Dems may not even do that. So it isn't that cut n dried. We need to hedge, like Modi is doing currently. But not cede anything long-term for sure.

chola
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby chola » 13 Oct 2018 14:24

Prasad wrote:Chola,
We are not fighting just Winnie the Pooh. Everybody is out to get us. Just because Winnie is next door doesn't discount threat from others or them trying to gain an advantage from us citing the big bad bear. Tomorrow if the Chinese play nice n do taqqiyaa by burying the MIC program and Democrats get reelected, guess who is going to get the shaft?

We cannot give long term concessions in the name of tactical thinking. To get the business that may flee china, we need to create the conditions necessary here. That needs political will, not kowtowing to the Americans/beg. The Chinese market & strategic that to the Russians that they posed were useful to the Americans/Nixon. Now when they're threatening the superiority of the Americans in the future, they're getting targeted. Dems may not even do that. So it isn't that cut n dried. We need to hedge, like Modi is doing currently. But not cede anything long-term for sure.


Prasadji, everyone is out to get everyone else in this world.

Hedging with poor stocks like Iran and Russia is not hedging at all. It is akin to hedging against blue chips with junk bonds. It is taking on unnecessary risks with little upside to give an illusion of balance.

And I already wrote about what would happen if Cheen caves in to Trump and be a good number 2 that doesn’t challenge Unkil at One. It would be just as bad for us as it will lock the global hierarchy in place for decades.

So I wish for a long drawn out conflict where Cheen is slowly ground down. This would allow India to grow without being targeted at least during the initial phase.

But if you do not want to be targeted then you can simply not grow much at all. Nobody targets Nigeria or Brazil because they’ll never challenge for the pole position.

Cheen threw its hat with Unkil in the 1970s and grew to its current position as number two (number one in PPP) while the US dealt with the USSR. Cutting off two derelict “friends” in Iran and Russia can afford us the same in this new epic game.

Saar, I rather we’d be a Cheen than a Nigeria.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Prasad » 13 Oct 2018 14:34

Iran & Russia aren't hedging. They're our necessity that should be beyond negotiation/used as negotiating pawns. Do we see prc or china using porkistan as negotiation points? No. Every single move in UN to get porki terrorist groups banned gets shot down by PRC. Certain things shouldn't be up for debate at all. Like our energy security. US is driving up our inflation and directly affecting our internal politics simply by talking about bombing Iran. Unless the US can assure us of lower prices crude, why would we entertain that's to our energy sources given their track record with Iraq wmd that resulted in $100/barrel over years!
Winnie is threatening Americans because they've grown that big. We need another ten years atleast of increasing growth and until then we hedge, without giving away any strategic advantage. That's all.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Karthik S » 13 Oct 2018 14:53

chola wrote:
Prasad wrote:Chola,
We are not fighting just Winnie the Pooh. Everybody is out to get us. Just because Winnie is next door doesn't discount threat from others or them trying to gain an advantage from us citing the big bad bear. Tomorrow if the Chinese play nice n do taqqiyaa by burying the MIC program and Democrats get reelected, guess who is going to get the shaft?

We cannot give long term concessions in the name of tactical thinking. To get the business that may flee china, we need to create the conditions necessary here. That needs political will, not kowtowing to the Americans/beg. The Chinese market & strategic that to the Russians that they posed were useful to the Americans/Nixon. Now when they're threatening the superiority of the Americans in the future, they're getting targeted. Dems may not even do that. So it isn't that cut n dried. We need to hedge, like Modi is doing currently. But not cede anything long-term for sure.


Prasadji, everyone is out to get everyone else in this world.

Hedging with poor stocks like Iran and Russia is not hedging at all. It is akin to hedging against blue chips with junk bonds. It is taking on unnecessary risks with little upside to give an illusion of balance.

And I already wrote about what would happen if Cheen caves in to Trump and be a good number 2 that doesn’t challenge Unkil at One. It would be just as bad for us as it will lock the global hierarchy in place for decades.

So I wish for a long drawn out conflict where Cheen is slowly ground down. This would allow India to grow without being targeted at least during the initial phase.

But if you do not want to be targeted then you can simply not grow much at all. Nobody targets Nigeria or Brazil because they’ll never challenge for the pole position.

Cheen threw its hat with Unkil in the 1970s and grew to its current position as number two (number one in PPP) while the US dealt with the USSR. Cutting off two derelict “friends” in Iran and Russia can afford us the same in this new epic game.

Saar, I rather we’d be a Cheen than a Nigeria.



You suggesting India do what DT wants? Let's not be Cheen or Nigeria, let's be India. Looks like you want India to submit to the Khan's wishes.
China's GDP is 5 times ours, what was their GDP 10 years back? Also, they had 13 years head start in terms of opening up their economy. They were ruled by people who despite everything put their heads down where it mattered. You know the political situation of India last 20 years, expect brief period of NDA 1.
Nobody is hedging anything bud, It's not that Iran or Russia are "doing" anything for us. We are doing business with countries on our terms. What's your fetish for cheen to ground down while your mama sam has to retain pole position? Everyone from Homi Bhaha to Nambi Narayanan would you laughing at your strategic and geopolitical thinking.
The day the US is willing to sell oil for rice or in Rupees, stops EJ funding, stops propping up pakis, come back to this thread.Till then I can only smell a sepoy.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby nam » 13 Oct 2018 15:06

We need to learn to make deals. If US wants us to dump Iran, sure. There is nothing worth while in Iran. if it is about the port, it is pointless fighting US for a port, which frankly is no real value. We are planning to sell stuff to Afghanistan, which cannot buy anything worthwhile and CIS which I really don't know what we sell.

Tell the Iranians, we cannot down with them for some "standing up to the Satan" dream. They have China and Russia and really don't need us.

Make a deal with US. The reality, it is the superpower. Dump Iran, in return ask US to let us deal with Russia for weapons and stop supporting Pak financially and weapons. We will buy some F35 and other American kit.

Every goes home happy. Our objective is growing economics and technology. Not some grand delusional moral standing. If Iran is needed for oil, then invest in non-fossil technology, instead of being in this situation. Someone in US will be coming up with some anti-Iran plans once every decade.

If we continue our nonsense Ghandian goodie goodie objective of being friends, even with the Paks, with 20 trillion GDP we will not be thumbing nose at any one.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby chola » 13 Oct 2018 16:08

Karthik S wrote:
chola wrote:
Prasadji, everyone is out to get everyone else in this world.

Hedging with poor stocks like Iran and Russia is not hedging at all. It is akin to hedging against blue chips with junk bonds. It is taking on unnecessary risks with little upside to give an illusion of balance.

And I already wrote about what would happen if Cheen caves in to Trump and be a good number 2 that doesn’t challenge Unkil at One. It would be just as bad for us as it will lock the global hierarchy in place for decades.

So I wish for a long drawn out conflict where Cheen is slowly ground down. This would allow India to grow without being targeted at least during the initial phase.

But if you do not want to be targeted then you can simply not grow much at all. Nobody targets Nigeria or Brazil because they’ll never challenge for the pole position.

Cheen threw its hat with Unkil in the 1970s and grew to its current position as number two (number one in PPP) while the US dealt with the USSR. Cutting off two derelict “friends” in Iran and Russia can afford us the same in this new epic game.

Saar, I rather we’d be a Cheen than a Nigeria.



You suggesting India do what DT wants? Let's not be Cheen or Nigeria, let's be India. Looks like you want India to submit to the Khan's wishes.
China's GDP is 5 times ours, what was their GDP 10 years back? Also, they had 13 years head start in terms of opening up their economy. They were ruled by people who despite everything put their heads down where it mattered. You know the political situation of India last 20 years, expect brief period of NDA 1.
Nobody is hedging anything bud, It's not that Iran or Russia are "doing" anything for us. We are doing business with countries on our terms. What's your fetish for cheen to ground down while your mama sam has to retain pole position? Everyone from Homi Bhaha to Nambi Narayanan would you laughing at your strategic and geopolitical thinking.
The day the US is willing to sell oil for rice or in Rupees, stops EJ funding, stops propping up pakis, come back to this thread.Till then I can only smell a sepoy.


To start off with, India was never colonized by the United States so throwing in Bhabha and the offensive sepoy tag made no real sense.

Two, looking at situations pragmatically and accessing with a cool head is not just “submitting” to someone’s else wishes. Unkil is in the pole position right now. You cannot argue that unless delusional. Iran and Russia give us no advantages except imaginary sops to our pride in “sticking it” to the big guy on top.

Three, Cheen got to its current size by fully aligning itself to the US in the 1970s. We are in a similar growth stage that if we fall on the wrong side of Unkil we could see us going back to Congress in 1960s/70s never mind NDA1 if economy goes south under amreeki pressure. So why risk it now?

Four, I want us to challenge for the pole position. We can’t do that by picking meaningless fights we can’t win right now. Again, if you don’t grow to the point you challenge for the top position then you won’t be targeted. So if your ambition is to have Unkil cut India’s growth NOW so they won’t have to target us in the future then your point of keeping Russia and Iran is valid.

Five, read Namji’s reply, Karthik saar. I made the same points but evidently I anger you so perhaps his presentation of them are less incendiary.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby nam » 13 Oct 2018 16:27

The reason why Pak is able to thumb our nose, because they are cold blood rationalist when making allies. Their objective is continue war with us.

They used US as their godfather against us, even when killing their servicemen. Have China as their godfather now and currently s**cking up to Russia despite killing thousands of Russian service men.

Even being down in the sink, they are doing all these moves.They haven't lost focused on their objective.

Here we want to stand up against a superpower who is best placed to help us and go in a camp where two of them are our adversary!

I don't even know if we can call it delusional..

No wonder Paks run rings around us.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Karthik S » 13 Oct 2018 16:52

chola wrote:
Karthik S wrote:

You suggesting India do what DT wants? Let's not be Cheen or Nigeria, let's be India. Looks like you want India to submit to the Khan's wishes.
China's GDP is 5 times ours, what was their GDP 10 years back? Also, they had 13 years head start in terms of opening up their economy. They were ruled by people who despite everything put their heads down where it mattered. You know the political situation of India last 20 years, expect brief period of NDA 1.
Nobody is hedging anything bud, It's not that Iran or Russia are "doing" anything for us. We are doing business with countries on our terms. What's your fetish for cheen to ground down while your mama sam has to retain pole position? Everyone from Homi Bhaha to Nambi Narayanan would you laughing at your strategic and geopolitical thinking.
The day the US is willing to sell oil for rice or in Rupees, stops EJ funding, stops propping up pakis, come back to this thread.Till then I can only smell a sepoy.


To start off with, India was never colonized by the United States so throwing in Bhabha and the offensive sepoy tag made no real sense.

Two, looking at situations pragmatically and accessing with a cool head is not just “submitting” to someone’s else wishes. Unkil is in the pole position right now. You cannot argue that unless delusional. Iran and Russia give us no advantages except imaginary sops to our pride in “sticking it” to the big guy on top.

Three, Cheen got to its current size by fully aligning itself to the US in the 1970s. We are in a similar growth stage that if we fall on the wrong side of Unkil we could see us going back to Congress in 1960s/70s never mind NDA1 if economy goes south under amreeki pressure. So why risk it now?

Four, I want us to challenge for the pole position. We can’t do that by picking meaningless fights we can’t win right now. Again, if you don’t grow to the point you challenge for the top position then you won’t be targeted. So if your ambition is to have Unkil cut India’s growth NOW so they won’t have to target us in the future then your point of keeping Russia and Iran is valid.

Five, read Namji’s reply, Karthik saar. I made the same points but evidently I anger you so perhaps his presentation of them are less incendiary.


You are still not getting it do you? We are not doing business with Russia or Iran to pride in "sticking it" to the "big guy". India being sovereign country will do business with whomsoever it wishes, whoever offers a good 'deal'.
If khan has problem with it, it needs to offer a better deal. Otherwise it's just the case of a bully and I don't know any country developing after submitting to a bully.

BTW you really need to jot down that exactly you mean "chinese aligned in 1970", based on which you are asking India to submit to khan as it will help us develop and grow you say. Because without facts, that statement is just a rhetoric that has no value.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Karthik S » 13 Oct 2018 17:02

nam wrote:The reason why Pak is able to thumb our nose, because they are cold blood rationalist when making allies. Their objective is continue war with us.

They used US as their godfather against us, even when killing their servicemen. Have China as their godfather now and currently s**cking up to Russia despite killing thousands of Russian service men.

Even being down in the sink, they are doing all these moves.They haven't lost focused on their objective.

Here we want to stand up against a superpower who is best placed to help us and go in a camp where two of them are our adversary!

I don't even know if we can call it delusional..

No wonder Paks run rings around us.


And how is pakistan today? Did all that selling up of sovereignty helped them become a developed country?
How much mental acuity one must have to look for a takeaway from pakis. :lol:

Pakis prob would have been solved but for Morarji Desai who instead of doing Operation Opera on pakis, did qtiyapa. And we needed
someone like Putin to handle them. So pak is altogether different story.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby nam » 13 Oct 2018 17:15

Karthik S wrote:And how is pakistan today? Did all that selling up of sovereignty helped them become a developed country?
How much mental acuity one must have to look for a takeaway from pakis. :lol:

Pakis prob would have been solved buy for Moraji Desai who instead of doing Operation Opera on pakis, did qtiyapa. And we needed
someone like Putin to handle them. So pak is altogether different story.


Sure it is in doldrums, however is it necessary we have to take their follies as well? As I said, their objective is continue the war with us. Using resources and tech from US first, now China and probably Russia. Even being in the pits, it is able to continue this. What have we been doing?

If Moraji Desai did not solve the Pak problem, because he was weak, what stopped the strong Indira Gandhi?

Pak problem cannot be solved. It would be folly to think, defeating PA and invading Pak would solve the problem. Paks understand this and are laser focused on continuing the war. Even under US bullying they dream of getting more F16 and attack choppers. They dream of getting SU35 from Russia!

For all we know they might Su-35.

Common sense would tell me, we need to do everything possible to deny them the resources to continue the war. We cannot do this with ideas of confronting US.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby chetak » 13 Oct 2018 17:58

nam wrote:The reason why Pak is able to thumb our nose, because they are cold blood rationalist when making allies. Their objective is continue war with us.

They used US as their godfather against us, even when killing their servicemen. Have China as their godfather now and currently s**cking up to Russia despite killing thousands of Russian service men.

Even being down in the sink, they are doing all these moves.They haven't lost focused on their objective.

Here we want to stand up against a superpower who is best placed to help us and go in a camp where two of them are our adversary!

I don't even know if we can call it delusional..

No wonder Paks run rings around us.


the pakis run rings around us because their decision making and publicity management team is small, focused and alert to every opportunity to show up India.

Whereas in India there are multiple agencies within the govt itself who don't see eye to eye, with the biggest and most stupid one being the MEA, also there are multiple interests and the media and the minorities and the lootyens liberandus with a long and seditious reach to plant news items, control anchors and prop up the paki point of view.

This is not a democracy, its plain anarchy.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vips » 13 Oct 2018 22:15

nam wrote:The reason why Pak is able to thumb our nose, because they are cold blood rationalist when making allies. Their objective is continue war with us.

They used US as their godfather against us, even when killing their servicemen. Have China as their godfather now and currently s**cking up to Russia despite killing thousands of Russian service men.

Even being down in the sink, they are doing all these moves.They haven't lost focused on their objective.

Here we want to stand up against a superpower who is best placed to help us and go in a camp where two of them are our adversary!

I don't even know if we can call it delusional..

No wonder Paks run rings around us.


+108, Sirji.

It is plain stupid to give legitimacy to SCO or any other grouping (against the US), where China with support of Russia will be try to use us and at the same time manage or box us in by leveraging Pakistan.

A super loose loose proposition for India.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Oct 2018 22:52

Ppl here must be aware of this long since: Canadastan becomes new destination for phoren jaab, races to grab top talent from Trumpistan

This is the real power play hit-back for Tariffs, Sanctions etc: "V vill get ur best ppl". Silicon chips minus intelligence are just that: sand.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Oct 2018 00:54

Austin wrote:India's decision on buying oil from Iran, defence system from Iran, defence system from Russia not helpful: US

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst

What defence system is being bought from Iran? Oil purchase can't be helped when elections are just around the corner and the price is trending upwards...

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Y. Kanan » 14 Oct 2018 01:12

nam wrote:We need to learn to make deals. If US wants us to dump Iran, sure. There is nothing worth while in Iran. if it is about the port, it is pointless fighting US for a port, which frankly is no real value. We are planning to sell stuff to Afghanistan, which cannot buy anything worthwhile and CIS which I really don't know what we sell.

Tell the Iranians, we cannot down with them for some "standing up to the Satan" dream. They have China and Russia and really don't need us.

Make a deal with US. The reality, it is the superpower. Dump Iran, in return ask US to let us deal with Russia for weapons and stop supporting Pak financially and weapons. We will buy some F35 and other American kit.

Every goes home happy. Our objective is growing economics and technology. Not some grand delusional moral standing. If Iran is needed for oil, then invest in non-fossil technology, instead of being in this situation. Someone in US will be coming up with some anti-Iran plans once every decade.

If we continue our nonsense Ghandian goodie goodie objective of being friends, even with the Paks, with 20 trillion GDP we will not be thumbing nose at any one.


So basically India dumps Iran in return for US dumping Pak? Sure, that’s a deal I could get behind, but it’s pure fantasy and you well know this. It will NEVER happen. Here’s the actual deal we get partnering with Uncle:

India dumps Iran
India dumps Russia
India buys lots of US weapons
US continues supporting Pakistan
US continues supporting Saudi and Sunni terrorists worldwide
US continues driving up price of oil hurting India
US says some nice things about us occasionally

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby g.sarkar » 14 Oct 2018 02:09

Kananji,
To go with the US, India has to completely accept a subordinate role. The examples are the UK, Germany, Japan, South Korea and even France. It has to be entrenched in the US camp completely. Allow US companies a free role in the Indian economy, abandon an independent foreign policy, look to US for guidance in foreign policy, and accept US arms and military concepts completely. Above all, India must supply Indians to fight for US interests’ world-wide. This means getting entangled with wars such as in Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. In practical terms it means going back to the pre 1947 era, where decisions were made in London and not in Delhi. Now after 1947, India could have gone with the US. Many countries did in Asia. These countries were poor and backward. US did help to bring industrialization to them. They became the emerging tigers in Asian economy. At that time India, in spite of being poor and weak, chose to go an independent road. Today the US is weaker and India much stronger. What can the US offer to India so that it abandons its independent policy and becomes a lackey? If India chooses not to accept a subordinate role, then all this talk about being natural allies is just taquia.
Gautam

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby disha » 14 Oct 2018 07:55

Trump's blow hot "sanctions" over India purchasing S-400 from Russia is 3-day old news now and in "trump's news cycle" it is already old and stale. And quite forgotten. In reality Trump will look for a face saver and probably a wrist slap on India so that it does not appear to biased or overtly inimical to China. Unless of course our pak-pasand or cheen-pasand journos play it up, particularly after doing a bing translation. Most of the 'sanction news' is carried out by Indian media.

As for Iranians., well they also need to find common ground with India. When did they ever support India in any manner, including Chabahar? India can as well make do with US or any other countries oil as long as it is unencumbered. Iran can go and shop its Chabahar to ISI and Cheen.

In US, the focus has shifted back to S. Barbaria and the missing journalist. Here Trump seems to be caught between supporting S. Barbaria and paying lip service to human rights (or the rights of a legal resident of the US).

In the meantime, do read this: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/magazine/the-democrats-have-an-immigration-problem.html

It was the kind of substantive, forward-thinking meeting Jayapal had been craving. No sooner did she leave it, however, than there was yet another fire to put out. The House was set to vote at 1:30 that afternoon on a series of measures under “closed rule,” in which no amendments could be offered. Among them was a resolution offered by Kevin McCarthy, the majority leader.

Like his July countermeasure to support ICE, this new resolution bore all the telltale imprints of an election-year ploy. Taking note of the fact that the City of San Francisco permits undocumented residents to vote in local school board elections, the resolution declared that “allowing illegal immigrants the right to vote devalues the franchise and diminishes the voting power of United States citizens.” McCarthy’s resolution seemed designed to put Democrats in a corner. Either they would be voting against the liberal policy of a city that happened to be represented by Nancy Pelosi, or they would be voting to let undocumented immigrants cast ballots in an American election.

Just before the vote, I asked Luis Gutiérrez what he intended to do. “I’m gonna tell them to kiss my Puerto Rican ass,” he replied. But, he acknowledged, the bill was a wily strategic move. The Democrats had complained for months about Russia’s interference in the 2016 election; now they were ushering illegal immigrants into the polling booths? “The trap has been sprung,” he said. “It’s like ‘I Love Lucy’: We’ve got some ’splaining to do. Which is what the Republicans want. What’s the adage? If you’re explaining, you’re losing.”


What India needs to do is start advising the India-Caucus on immigration reforms. Particularly US can bring in some sort of 'skilled visa act' and put a method to the madness in which the dumbocrats are embroiled.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby nam » 14 Oct 2018 14:45

Y. Kanan wrote:So basically India dumps Iran in return for US dumping Pak? Sure, that’s a deal I could get behind, but it’s pure fantasy and you well know this. It will NEVER happen. Here’s the actual deal we get partnering with Uncle:

India dumps Iran
India dumps Russia
India buys lots of US weapons
US continues supporting Pakistan
US continues supporting Saudi and Sunni terrorists worldwide
US continues driving up price of oil hurting India
US says some nice things about us occasionally


Ofcourse it is not black and white. And US will not give up on Pak. It is a given. Yes US will drive the oil price, support all terror regime.

US can do whatever it wants to do, as long as we have our piece of the pie. Aren't we being hypocritical to one of our closest ally Israel, when dealing with Iran?

Let's look objectivity. Our money comes from US, Europe, Saudi, UAE & Arab worlds. what money do we make out of Iran? What money do we make out of Russia? I agree we need to keep Russia in our camp to balance out China.

Russia brought India in to SCO to balance out China. US wants India to be a counter balance. So in this aspect both the countries agree. Would it difficult to make a deal?

Regarding buying US stuff, we get close to 100 billion per year in IT revenue from US and have a trade surplus. What is wrong in buying US weapons? If there are fears of US sanction, then we should use our common sense and invest in R&D. Buy stuff from US which has a alternative or which we can do quite easily. We have C17,C130,P8, Apache, Chinooks. Are we being a US slave?

For example: If we can sort our jet engine, I would really want us to buy F35. With AMCA we will have all that is needed to build a 5th gen in house. Keeps the big bull happy and we are sanction proofed.

Regarding oil, it is our stupidity not having invested in alternate energy source. Why blame US or Saudis or Russians.
Last edited by nam on 14 Oct 2018 14:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby nam » 14 Oct 2018 14:53

Regarding being a US lackney, Egpyt receives US aid yet buys French & Russian kit. Singapore is a total US ally, yet not involved in any US bush wars. South Korea? Japan? Have tons of US kit, yet are technological competent.

It is test of our deal making skill.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby chola » 14 Oct 2018 16:37

Karthik S wrote:
chola wrote:
To start off with, India was never colonized by the United States so throwing in Bhabha and the offensive sepoy tag made no real sense.

Two, looking at situations pragmatically and accessing with a cool head is not just “submitting” to someone’s else wishes. Unkil is in the pole position right now. You cannot argue that unless delusional. Iran and Russia give us no advantages except imaginary sops to our pride in “sticking it” to the big guy on top.

Three, Cheen got to its current size by fully aligning itself to the US in the 1970s. We are in a similar growth stage that if we fall on the wrong side of Unkil we could see us going back to Congress in 1960s/70s never mind NDA1 if economy goes south under amreeki pressure. So why risk it now?

Four, I want us to challenge for the pole position. We can’t do that by picking meaningless fights we can’t win right now. Again, if you don’t grow to the point you challenge for the top position then you won’t be targeted. So if your ambition is to have Unkil cut India’s growth NOW so they won’t have to target us in the future then your point of keeping Russia and Iran is valid.

Five, read Namji’s reply, Karthik saar. I made the same points but evidently I anger you so perhaps his presentation of them are less incendiary.


You are still not getting it do you? We are not doing business with Russia or Iran to pride in "sticking it" to the "big guy". India being sovereign country will do business with whomsoever it wishes, whoever offers a good 'deal'.
If khan has problem with it, it needs to offer a better deal. Otherwise it's just the case of a bully and I don't know any country developing after submitting to a bully.

BTW you really need to jot down that exactly you mean "chinese aligned in 1970", based on which you are asking India to submit to khan as it will help us develop and grow you say. Because without facts, that statement is just a rhetoric that has no value.


Every country in the world is sovereign and can do whatever the hell it wants. And every other country can see those acts as inimical to its interest and react. It is always a balance. How these things turn out depends on the relative power of the nations involved. Cheen in 1972 knew the balance of power with Unkil. We in 2018 seemingly don’t.

China did in 1972 after the Nixon visit what Japan, South Korea and Taiwan did in the decades previous. They gave into American standards and followed American policies but connived in ways that benefited themselves at the expense of some principals. It is called pragmatism. The lizard adopted an pro-American stance on the USSR, of course, but also on Cuba, Vietnam and Eastern Europe. They allowed the CIA to set up posts in China itself to spy on neighboring nations. They junked indigenous programs like the Y-10 airliner under American advice. Their nuke building program slowed down during this period which is why Cheen only has a few hundred instead of thousands. They put on ice active claims against Taiwan and Japan. They opened up their trade and commercial regimes so that foreigners (who were outright enemies) can take stake in the chini economy.

Cheen “lost” degree of their sovereignty on North Korea, Vietnam and Taiwan during that period. Those were and are far more important to them than Russia and Iran are to us. People forgotten that communist world turned on Cheen abruptedly in the 1970s and ‘80s (as US, UK and France poured in Blackhawks, Rolls Royce engines and Dauphin helocopters.)

In return, they got a massive economy that is now a threat to the US as American, Japanese, Korean and Taiwanese companies flooded into the country. This would never have happened if they didn’t make hard choices with Unkil and bargained.

Here we are making some moral stance on Iran and Russia? What really have those countries given us? Tell me. No one can tell me the benefits except that we can’t be “bullied” into dropping relations with derelict friends.

Our growth cycle is not assured, friend. This road is fraught with danger. Just look at the goddam rupee in the past month.

So yes I do get it. Just like Nehru and Indira versus Zhou and Deng we like a “principal” stance over hard-edged pragmatism. This is why on the eve of the Nixon visit, India and the chinis had the same sized economies but today we are only a fifth.
Last edited by chola on 14 Oct 2018 16:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Singha » 14 Oct 2018 16:44

2 US congressmen have written to PM Modi, asking him to reconsider the data localization requirement imposed by RBI/Govt on internet apps recently.

this is a deadline to ensure all data on indian consumers is stored in india and accessible to GOI if a warrant is issued.

some providers do not want to follow
some providers want to store it abroad as now, but mirror it to a indian server - so that phoren govts can continue to have full access :D

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby uskumar » 14 Oct 2018 19:07

Singha wrote:2 US congressmen have written to PM Modi, asking him to reconsider the data localization requirement imposed by RBI/Govt on internet apps recently.


Data localisation directive as of now is from RBI and only applies to payment companies. I hope this is extended to all apps which handle personal data. It makes no sense that data of Indians are stored abroad especially after Snowden revelation

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby nam » 14 Oct 2018 19:11

Singha wrote:some providers want to store it abroad as now, but mirror it to a indian server - so that phoren govts can continue to have full access :D


GoI can reply back with a reciprocal deal. Companies can store US citizen data in India, in return we allow Indian citizen data in US.

Ofcourse the same set of laws would apply on this data. If US government has a right of investigation on any data on US soil.. so would Indian gov on Indian soil.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Prasad » 14 Oct 2018 20:58

Chola,
Again, China did a porkistan with the us due to call in relations with the Soviets. Taiwan issue happened right after ww2 and us supported Taiwan only to drop support laterand d restart it after China turned truculent. Lesson here is, do enough trade/ contact but give nothing away. Despite all these years China still had the Taiwan needle, and hasn't given Americans full blown market access. Japan, Soko haven't stated any intent to challenge for no1 status. If they did, they would shut down in an instant. We haven't either but everyone knows we're just as capable as China and hence all the attempts to stifle us.

Data protection is part of the communication policy which aims to up our manufacturing prowess. That is dangerous. Read up on all the objections by all the European and American chambers and trade groups. They all say the same thing, don't insist on local mfg, let us import components and assemble here and no transfer of tech or anything. But give us full market access because free markets onlee.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Oct 2018 04:04

I think Trump will play hard ball but waive sanctions, India will probly land up announcing deals on large amounts of US hardware like MPAs, drones, c130, nasams etc. Possibly, although unlikely, a few teens as well. And everyone will be happy except the Dems.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Karthik S » 15 Oct 2018 07:57

Only settlement I'd be happy with is reducing tariffs on any Made in USA items such as harley davidson, this will make US workers happy, DT can boast about it everywhere and we wouldn't have to depend on US military hardware that we may buy just for the sake of it.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Gyan » 15 Oct 2018 08:52

Business has to be done with practical approach and mutual benefit. India has huge benefit of trade and service surplus with USA of almost USD 100 Billion dollars. USA knows it. Our trade deficit is primarily due to oil, gold and Chinese crap.

We should go out of way to give unilateral benefits to US manufactured goods. I suggest that all US manufactured good with 75 % Value edition in USA should be given benefit of 0% custom duty while duty on Chinese good should be escalated across the board to forty percent.

No benefit is achieved by biting the hand that helps us and trying to cosy up to Chinese.

Multinational companies and multinational media is trying condition and brainwash us to keep low duties on Chinese crap which is destroying our economy and this policy has to be reversed

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2018 14:02

True. Every economic ally of the usa has benefitted over the decades while china is ripping everyone in zero sum game

Whether its marshall plan, nafta, east asian tigers all have benefitted

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby nam » 15 Oct 2018 16:14

In military terms, the areas where US can hit us is jet engines, ge turbine engines and large body aircraft. Sort our jet & turbine engines and we are pretty good.

US cannot cripple us once the engine department are sorted. Keep it transactional as we have with the Russians. We don't get involved with Russian adventures.

I am all for F35 as the MMRCA2.0. Ask the US what can they provide in return, we will be ready to buy 200 of them.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby chola » 15 Oct 2018 16:44

Gyan wrote:Business has to be done with practical approach and mutual benefit. India has huge benefit of trade and service surplus with USA of almost USD 100 Billion dollars. USA knows it. Our trade deficit is primarily due to oil, gold and Chinese crap.

We should go out of way to give unilateral benefits to US manufactured goods. I suggest that all US manufactured good with 75 % Value edition in USA should be given benefit of 0% custom duty while duty on Chinese good should be escalated across the board to forty percent.

No benefit is achieved by biting the hand that helps us and trying to cosy up to Chinese.

Multinational companies and multinational media is trying condition and brainwash us to keep low duties on Chinese crap which is destroying our economy and this policy has to be reversed


We don’t buy enough from the US which is why the bargaining must be done on our relations with Unkil’s enemies like Russia and Iran.

The reason why we buy chini crap is because of infracture equipment, chemicals and electronics (not the day to day chit like toilet paper and puji idols which amounts to less than 10% of our trade with cheen.)

The US makes none of these things in affordable fashion. We go taxing everything from Cheen and it is not as simple as losing some fireworks and toys. What will be hit are our telecom, transportation and energy companies, our generic pharmacy industry and our nascent cell phone manufacturing base. In fact, they will be crippled. The components for pharmacy and mobiles are 90% sourced from Cheen.

If we sourced from elsewhere like the Far East or Europe then our bill doubles or triples and our forex drain will become dangerously critical when we need to import energy too.

And we would STILL need to make concession to the US over Russia and Iran because we simply can’t buy those components from the US.

Singha wrote:True. Every economic ally of the usa has benefitted over the decades while china is ripping everyone in zero sum game

Whether its marshall plan, nafta, east asian tigers all have benefitted


No, it is a zero-sum game for Cheen only with the US (nominally) and a select few mostly from the West. Taiwan, SoKo, Japan and practically all of ASEAN and most of commodity producing turd world run big surpluses with the PRC. Australia too.

That is what makes Cheen an exceptional challenge. If they were zero-summing everyone then they would have no partners a long time ago. The world is not stupid. It is always quid pro quo.

The reason we buy lots of chit from cheen is what I explained above in telecom, infrastructure, energy, pharmacy and electronics.

Aye. Cheen and the East Asian Tigers ALL rode the US trade system to prominence by bargaining. If Cheen didn’t acquiesce to the US in the 1970s then they would never be in the position to pull in those supply chains and create a challenge to the US 40 years later.

Those supply chains are on the move again. We shouldn’t pick fights that jeopardize our chances. We have a lot of growing yet to do. We can challenge more when we are five times larger.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Amber G. » 16 Oct 2018 01:12


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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rudradev » 16 Oct 2018 04:11

Moving the conversation away from geopolitics for a moment, and back to my favourite obsession ("Hindu Lives Matter", or the destiny of Indian-- specifically Hindu-- immigrants to the USA).

One learns that the great state of North Dakota has a grand total of 750,000 inhabitants.

In the current domestic political climate of the United States, it is estimated that a senator (for example) can win North Dakota with 150,000 votes. Indeed, even 15,000 votes could be enough to swing an election. (Source: https://www.politico.com/newsletters/mo ... day-370031)

In addition, the great state of Wyoming has altogether 600,000 residents.

Applying the same ratio of estimates, one could conclude that ~120,000 votes en bloc will deliver a senatorial, gubernatorial, etc. seat to a candidate. And a bloc of ~10-to-12000 votes would be of substantial consequence.

Consider what this means. North Dakota and Wyoming each have two senators. In Presidential elections, they each send three delegates to the electoral college.

This is more than enough to permanently secure the interests of any community that lives in these states and votes, en bloc, in substantial numbers. Also to ensure a substantial level of influence over foreign policy (comparable to that wielded by Jewish Americans).

Muslims in America are already increasing their political clout by their substantial concentrations in certain areas, notably some counties of the swing state Michigan. One Rashida Tlaib is running virtually unopposed, for Congress, from such a district. Chinese, similarly, have large concentrations particularly on the West Coast and some areas of New England.

Indians meanwhile (particularly Hindus) are tucked away in huge urban/suburban conglomerations: NY metro area, SF bay area, Chicago area etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Am ... opulations Our numbers in any of those areas are easily enough to decide a WY or ND election; but in their current locations, they are of relatively little consequence.

Is it a pipe dream to imagine Make North Dakota/Wyoming Indian Again? :mrgreen: What would it take to settle these regions?

Is it really as unthinkable as it appears at first glance? These days, the internet makes remote work a possibility for many professionals. Quality of life, schools, access to services in these states is not horrible (yes, ND, can get cold, but that doesn't stop Desis from flocking to Boston or Chicago). And of course, there is always a snowball effect once any community gains critical mass: enough desis in one location needing turmeric powder means someone will come along to open a Patel Brothers, and that in turn will make the location yet more attractive to more desis, and so on. That's how all the US' "Little Indias" were populated.

Also, the vast size and rarefied populations of ND, WY etc. mean that migration could take place without potentially-resentful locals obviously noticing anything. It's different if even 50 Indian families suddenly turn up in a white suburb of relatively-crowded Massachusetts or Ohio (the whites will feel under siege immediately). In the wide open spaces of the west, however...

Also note that another thing the information age affords, at least for people who don't (yet) have phemilys, is greater mobility. One doesn't have to move permanently to a state in order to register to vote there. Only long enough to establish residency, which varies from state to state but is usually on the order of a few months before elections. So for example if a Sadhguru or Sri Sri (type) set up an ashram (or five) somewhere in a state, and people went to stay there on say 6-month remote-working rotations, or sabbaticals from academia, or taking time to write up a Peechidee thesis... such processes could pave the way for a transitory phase before Yindoos begin moving hearth-and-home to these places.

Again, I strongly advise people to watch the Netflix documentary series "Wild Wild Country". Rajneesh, many people don't realize, almost succeeded in taking over the state of Oregon via Rajneeshpuram. He failed because he was just too in-your-face, too noticeable, took too many pangas too early with the locals (and thus united them in a massive, multi-pronged political and legal effort against him).

A slower, gentler, more persistent effort could really pay dividends.

At the very least, it's worth doing a serious feasibility study over.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Misra » 16 Oct 2018 09:35

having binge watched it myself i also recommend wild wild country on netflix. rajneesh’s era and methods were very different and he serves as a great foil to what, for example, someone like sadhguru is attempting today here in the US. sadhguru has indeed set up an institute of inner sciences in mcminneville, TN of all places. his isha foundation is also selling studios and homes near the ashram/institute. and he has hundreds of volunteer led programs going on all over the US. its really quite phenomenal but the success is not surprising. the thirst for the spiritual often begins once a certain level of comfort/affluence is attained by a society—you can’t talk spirituality to a starving person. and the US has been ripe for it for some time now. there are countless little temples and shrines dedicated to indian/hindu deities in kinds of places in the US—like a hanuman temple in taos, NM set up by followers of neem karoli baba

like i mentioned before on this forum, yoga/spirituality is the best way to ensure a certain kind of indianization closer to us here in the US. the approach of the rajneeshees in oregon was eventually confrontational and stemmed from an impulse to conquer. what is required is an approach that stems from an impulse to embrace—hence yoga. perhaps not fully compatible with your apparent desire to conquer america as well :)

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby g.sarkar » 16 Oct 2018 09:53

Rudradevji,
I am not sure what you are saying. Do you mean to say that I should leave liberal California and settle down in god forsaken and cold North Dakota? or Wyoming (or Montana or Idaho)? Do you think I will like being surrounded by pot smoking and Church going incestuous Rednecks? Do you know that they welcome you by burning a cross in your front lawn?
No way Jose.
Gautam

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ArjunPandit » 16 Oct 2018 10:08

Rdji, I was coming to gautams point. Indian migrants to West have largely been educated and soft Indians except may be Sikhs who anyways are at best neutral towards India, the ones politically active are just the leftovers of kps Gil's purge. Based on my limited sample search keeping weapons at home is a big no, comes even stronger than pre martial hex

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Mort Walker » 16 Oct 2018 10:20

g.sarkar wrote:Rudradevji,
I am not sure what you are saying. Do you mean to say that I should leave liberal California and settle down in god forsaken and cold North Dakota? or Wyoming (or Montana or Idaho)? Do you think I will like being surrounded by pot smoking and Church going incestuous Rednecks? Do you know that they welcome you by burning a cross in your front lawn?
No way Jose.
Gautam


A good chunk of Wyoming's population is in the Cheyenne area which is commuting distance to the Denver, CO area. It really isn't like you describe it and is somewhat pleasant - though not coastal California. What you're thinking of are parts of east Texas, Arkansas, northern Louisiana going east into Alabama, parts of Georgia and going up into South and North Carolina.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby g.sarkar » 16 Oct 2018 11:08

Mortji,
A good friend of mine, who happens to be African-american, worked with me in Corrections. He retired as a parole agent and is now with Child Protective Agency in Houston, TX. He tells me that there are still counties in Texas where blacks are not allowed to stay after sun-down. As an ex Californian, he has to be very careful about where he goes. Houston is OK, but the neighboring counties could be dangerous for him.
Arjunji, as ex-peace officers we all keep fire-arms at home, no permission is required.
Gautam

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby TKiran » 16 Oct 2018 12:29

Misra wrote:having binge watched it myself i also recommend wild wild country on netflix. rajneesh’s era and methods were very different and he serves as a great foil to what, for example, someone like sadhguru is attempting today here in the US. sadhguru has indeed set up an institute of inner sciences in mcminneville, TN of all places. his isha foundation is also selling studios and homes near the ashram/institute. and he has hundreds of volunteer led programs going on all over the US. its really quite phenomenal but the success is not surprising. the thirst for the spiritual often begins once a certain level of comfort/affluence is attained by a society—you can’t talk spirituality to a starving person. and the US has been ripe for it for some time now. there are countless little temples and shrines dedicated to indian/hindu deities in kinds of places in the US—like a hanuman temple in taos, NM set up by followers of neem karoli baba

like i mentioned before on this forum, yoga/spirituality is the best way to ensure a certain kind of indianization closer to us here in the US. the approach of the rajneeshees in oregon was eventually confrontational and stemmed from an impulse to conquer. what is required is an approach that stems from an impulse to embrace—hence yoga. perhaps not fully compatible with your apparent desire to conquer america as well :)


Actually, Yoga is American and Christian

Watch it...

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby pankajs » 16 Oct 2018 12:44

TKiran wrote:Actually, Yoga is American and Christian

Watch it...

Dosn't matter what any one person claims. The records are clear enough and has been stamped at the UN, in US courts and world over. There are folks who call Moon landing as Hoax and 911 as an inside job, etc, etc. That doesn't change facts or the world memory.

In earlier eras, the past records would be wiped off but not anymore. The US courts in California went to the extent of calling Yoga "Hindu" not just "Indian".

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/school_l ... e_cou.html
California State Appellate Court Upholds Public School Yoga Program
A California school district's use of yoga in its physical education classes does not impermissibly advance religion, despite yoga's roots in Hinduism, a state appellate court has ruled. [See what the court has stated ... Yoga's root is in Hinduism .. of course it can be practiced in a "secular" way and thus permissible to be taught in school. Now that is on record in a US court if that is the only thing that will convince you.]

A three-judge panel of California's 4th District Court of Appeal, based in San Diego, ruled unanimously on April 3 that the yoga program of the 6,500-student Encinitas Union School District does not violate the state constitution's prohibition against government establishment of religion.

"The record in this case contains abundant evidence that contemporary yoga is commonly practiced in the United States for reasons that are entirely distinct from religious ideology," the court said.


BTW TKiran, why are so many Christians in the US fighting to get Yoga off the school menu or prevent it from being added to the menu if Yoga is "Christian".


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