Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV
Posted: 16 Oct 2018 13:37
^^^^ I know it's difficult for you to watch the video complete, but there's answer to all your questions in the video
Consortium of Indian Defence Websites
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This is what the court said, the moment you say Yoga is not for religious purposes, you lost your case."The record in this case contains abundant evidence that contemporary yoga is commonly practiced in the United States for reasons that are entirely distinct from religious ideology," the court said.
V/STKiran wrote:Actually, Yoga is American and Christian
An "American Christian" practicing "secular" yoga does not make it "American and Christian" ... OTOH, him/her practicing "goat or dog" yoga makes no difference to me/Hindus/India/Indians.TKiran wrote:This is what the court said, the moment you say Yoga is not for religious purposes, you lost your case.
Yoga is Hindu tradition whose only aim is moksha. The moment you say otherwise, you lost Yoga.
Sure you satire is so powerful that it fools you too. All one has to do is read your posts.TKiran wrote:^^^you have comprehension problem unable to decode the satire... I feel sorry for your problem. I sure could have helped you, if I could, but I can't.
Misra ji,Misra wrote:having binge watched it myself i also recommend wild wild country on netflix. rajneesh’s era and methods were very different and he serves as a great foil to what, for example, someone like sadhguru is attempting today here in the US. sadhguru has indeed set up an institute of inner sciences in mcminneville, TN of all places. his isha foundation is also selling studios and homes near the ashram/institute. and he has hundreds of volunteer led programs going on all over the US. its really quite phenomenal but the success is not surprising. the thirst for the spiritual often begins once a certain level of comfort/affluence is attained by a society—you can’t talk spirituality to a starving person. and the US has been ripe for it for some time now. there are countless little temples and shrines dedicated to indian/hindu deities in kinds of places in the US—like a hanuman temple in taos, NM set up by followers of neem karoli baba
like i mentioned before on this forum, yoga/spirituality is the best way to ensure a certain kind of indianization closer to us here in the US. the approach of the rajneeshees in oregon was eventually confrontational and stemmed from an impulse to conquer. what is required is an approach that stems from an impulse to embrace—hence yoga. perhaps not fully compatible with your apparent desire to conquer america as well
If history has thought us anything, it is that these kind of polite, soft approach to anything will be taken lightly, nobody will respect that. You are right dharmics will never think in terms of dar ul harb or dar ul islam, but our "boy next door" will not get us any influence in any senate.Rudradev wrote:I would like to get back to the conversation I began here: viewtopic.php?p=2300324#p2300324
Misra ji,Misra wrote:having binge watched it myself i also recommend wild wild country on netflix. rajneesh’s era and methods were very different and he serves as a great foil to what, for example, someone like sadhguru is attempting today here in the US. sadhguru has indeed set up an institute of inner sciences in mcminneville, TN of all places. his isha foundation is also selling studios and homes near the ashram/institute. and he has hundreds of volunteer led programs going on all over the US. its really quite phenomenal but the success is not surprising. the thirst for the spiritual often begins once a certain level of comfort/affluence is attained by a society—you can’t talk spirituality to a starving person. and the US has been ripe for it for some time now. there are countless little temples and shrines dedicated to indian/hindu deities in kinds of places in the US—like a hanuman temple in taos, NM set up by followers of neem karoli baba
like i mentioned before on this forum, yoga/spirituality is the best way to ensure a certain kind of indianization closer to us here in the US. the approach of the rajneeshees in oregon was eventually confrontational and stemmed from an impulse to conquer. what is required is an approach that stems from an impulse to embrace—hence yoga. perhaps not fully compatible with your apparent desire to conquer america as well
Why must we think in terms of "conquer"? It is the Mzzlmz who have two and only two modes: Dhimmitude (victimhood) and Conquest (domination). We are capable of many other ways of thinking and acting as a dharmic community.
Here is what I am proposing. Hindus moving to ND or WY will, true to our dharmic traditions, endeavour to be the best, most loyal, most productive North Dakotans and Wyomingites possible.
We will contribute our education, our penchant for hard work, our talents, our sense of financial responsibility to enhance the economic health of those states. We will be for the most part middle-class professionals, and our spending will invigorate their economies. Many of us may actually start businesses and support local job growth.
Gautam ji,g.sarkar wrote:Rudradevji,
I am not sure what you are saying. Do you mean to say that I should leave liberal California and settle down in god forsaken and cold North Dakota? or Wyoming (or Montana or Idaho)? Do you think I will like being surrounded by pot smoking and Church going incestuous Rednecks? Do you know that they welcome you by burning a cross in your front lawn?
No way Jose.
Gautam
Karthik S wrote:If history has thought us anything, it is that these kind of polite, soft approach to anything will be taken lightly, nobody will respect that. You are right dharmics will never think in terms of dar ul harb or dar ul islam, but our "boy next door" will not get us any influence in any senate.Rudradev wrote:I would like to get back to the conversation I began here: viewtopic.php?p=2300324#p2300324
Misra ji,
Why must we think in terms of "conquer"? It is the Mzzlmz who have two and only two modes: Dhimmitude (victimhood) and Conquest (domination). We are capable of many other ways of thinking and acting as a dharmic community.
Here is what I am proposing. Hindus moving to ND or WY will, true to our dharmic traditions, endeavour to be the best, most loyal, most productive North Dakotans and Wyomingites possible.
We will contribute our education, our penchant for hard work, our talents, our sense of financial responsibility to enhance the economic health of those states. We will be for the most part middle-class professionals, and our spending will invigorate their economies. Many of us may actually start businesses and support local job growth.
PS: Not saying we have to change ourselves, but simply that the kind of people we are, we'll never wield any influence outside bharat's political spectrum, which itself is proving difficult.
This is the same thing I said, for us, the kind of people we are i.e. hard working and other attributes you mentioned, political assertiveness isn't possible and isn't going to happen.Rudradev wrote:Karthik S wrote:
If history has thought us anything, it is that these kind of polite, soft approach to anything will be taken lightly, nobody will respect that. You are right dharmics will never think in terms of dar ul harb or dar ul islam, but our "boy next door" will not get us any influence in any senate.
PS: Not saying we have to change ourselves, but simply that the kind of people we are, we'll never wield any influence outside bharat's political spectrum, which itself is proving difficult.
Please read my entire post before you take one thing out of context and claim it to be my whole prescription. I am saying we will contribute to our states, we will not alienate the locals, AND we will assert ourselves politically through active measures. Only a Mzzlm would not be able to comprehend that all these things are possible at the same time.
rudradev ji,Rudradev wrote:I would like to get back to the conversation I began here: viewtopic.php?p=2300324#p2300324
Misra ji,Misra wrote: ...
like i mentioned before on this forum, yoga/spirituality is the best way to ensure a certain kind of indianization closer to us here in the US. the approach of the rajneeshees in oregon was eventually confrontational and stemmed from an impulse to conquer. what is required is an approach that stems from an impulse to embrace—hence yoga. perhaps not fully compatible with your apparent desire to conquer america as well
Why must we think in terms of "conquer"? It is the Mzzlmz who have two and only two modes: Dhimmitude (victimhood) and Conquest (domination). We are capable of many other ways of thinking and acting as a dharmic community.
Here is what I am proposing.
...
That's my vision! Feel free to rip apart
Having traveled by road through state highways from eastern Colorado all the way through Georgia, I will say that your friend describes what it was through the 1970s. Most of Texas is now experiencing urban or suburban sprawl. Economic growth has been the mantra in Texas. The governor, a Republican, Greg Abott in the last year has visited India and even met with Modji to push India-Texas commercial ties. Everything from oil and gas to Mahindra’s North American headquarters in Texas, to welcoming Infosys. He’s been on record to welcome immigrants from India.g.sarkar wrote:Mortji,
A good friend of mine, who happens to be African-american, worked with me in Corrections. He retired as a parole agent and is now with Child Protective Agency in Houston, TX. He tells me that there are still counties in Texas where blacks are not allowed to stay after sun-down. As an ex Californian, he has to be very careful about where he goes. Houston is OK, but the neighboring counties could be dangerous for him.
Arjunji, as ex-peace officers we all keep fire-arms at home, no permission is required.
Gautam
Mortji,Mort Walker wrote: Having traveled by road through state highways from eastern Colorado all the way through Georgia, I will say that your friend describes what it was through the 1970s. Most of Texas is now experiencing urban or suburban sprawl. Economic growth has been the mantra in Texas. The governor, a Republican, Greg Abott in the last year has visited India and even met with Modji to push India-Texas commercial ties. Everything from oil and gas to Mahindra’s North American headquarters in Texas, to welcoming Infosys. He’s been on record to welcome immigrants from India.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/texas-p ... lds-mumbai
Gautamji,Mort Walker wrote:g.sarkar wrote:Mortji,
A good friend of mine, who happens to be African-american, worked with me in Corrections. He retired as a parole agent and is now with Child Protective Agency in Houston, TX. He tells me that there are still counties in Texas where blacks are not allowed to stay after sun-down. As an ex Californian, he has to be very careful about where he goes. Houston is OK, but the neighboring counties could be dangerous for him.
Arjunji, as ex-peace officers we all keep fire-arms at home, no permission is required.
Gautam
Mappunniji,mappunni wrote:Mortji,
The city where I live Frisco TX, after English speakers, next comes Telugu speakers and then Spanish speakers. And Frisco TX is the fastest growing city in the US.
Governor Abott has high regards for Indians as good folks contributing towards a vibrant Texas.
Mappunniji,mappunni wrote:Gautamji,Mort Walker wrote:
Have lived in Texas for over a decade plus. The sun down laws are you talking about is from the Jim Crow era. During my drives to visit family in San Antonio or Houston, I avoid interstate highways and take state highway weaving thru small town Texas and even have stayed at B&B in small Hill county towns. No form of overt racism exists. Most of the convenience stores and gas stations are owned and operated by Indians, mind you I am talking about really small towns.
You might have been told wrong information about Sun down laws.
Philip Mason in his work on the history of the British Indian Army, ""A Matter of Honour - An Account of the Indian Army, its officers & men" notes an episode where sailors were recruited from some community in (what is now) Tamil Nadu for a campaign in the Bay of Bengal. Conditions were horrible and many sickened and died. The next time the British tried to recruit from that community, they were politely told that no one would sign up, it was against their religion.ArjunPandit wrote:^^in this conversation my question may be slightly OT, but does anyone know of the origins of soft proscription of sea travel in hinduism. There are many mainstream stories, e.g., about ramanujam and vivekanad talk about it. I have always countered it using
1. Ramayan stories of sea travel of shriram and hanuman
2. historical sea travel from days of harrappa and continuity
3. sparsity of veg food, which was common for brahmins
rdji, interesting post.Rudradev wrote:You are wrong, sir. Read UlanBatori's post in the "Understanding the US Thread" about the Rapid Response Team, organized by Ram Narayanan of Buffalo, NY during the Kargil War era. I was part of it too. We did not fix everything, but we achieved more than we could have expected by being politically assertive. We definitely achieved more than we would have if we never tried.
Mortji,Mort Walker wrote:
Mappunniji,
Living nearby I eat at Chennai cafe every few months and visit your Hanuman temple. So I know exactly what you talk about. My wife and I will probably retire near Frisco in the next decade. I have seen your town grow up since the late 1980s. What Gautam is talking about has been in the past of in parts of east Texas. I also visit down near south Austin to Salt Lick BBQ next to Barsanadham Asharam!
BTW, Abbott was trying to get American Airlines and Air India to get direct non stop flights from DFW to DEL in order to push India Texas commerce.
The United States believed that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, a new Russia could be brought to its knees by economic pressures and political manoeuvres. Washington sought to see that Moscow’s leadership remained in the hands of individuals like the occasionally sober President Boris Yeltsin. They had not counted on a young former KGB agent Vladimir Putin assuming leadership, determined to restore Russia’s influence in the emerging world order.
Putin thwarted US backed initiatives to undermine Russian influence in neighbouring former Soviet Republics, like Georgia and Ukraine, where Russia annexed its erstwhile naval base in Crimea. He thereafter used military assistance to successfully back the secular Syrian Government of Bashar al Assad, against American backed Islamic fundamentalists.
Successive governments in India have wisely not made the mistake of underestimating the power and influence of a new Russia, emerging from the ashes of the Soviet Union. While trade and investment ties with Russia have been limited in recent years, the Russians have remained reliable suppliers of frontline defence equipment to India, at competitive prices.
India has also joined forums like BRICS and the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, where it can exchange views with both Russia and China, on issues of security and economic cooperation, particularly across the Eurasian land mass. Moreover, given the rise of an aggressive and assertive China, our economic, diplomatic and military ties with the US, Japan and the EU have been significantly strengthened.
But, things have now come to a head, with the passing of American legislation “CAATSA,” to impose sanctions against countries that buy sophisticated weapons systems from Russia. This is as much to “punish” Russia as to “enrich” the American arms industry! American officials have testified in the US Congress confirming that one of the main aims of CAATSA is to wean countries away from Russian arms purchases and turn to the US.
Long-standing friend
Russia has remained a major partner for five decades now, as a reliable supplier of defence equipment and diplomatic support, especially in difficult times. Moreover, Russian cooperation in crucial areas, like our space programme continued, even when the Americans imposed sanctions on India, after its nuclear tests. It was the inability of the US to isolate India globally, because of support from countries like Russia and France that led to Washington ending sanctions. {The underlined part may not be entirely true, but there is no doubt about the support from these countries} Washington thereafter designated India as valued “partner” across the “Indo-Pacific,” primarily to balance and counter a territorially aggressive and economically assertive China.
The last two decades have seen a significant turnaround in India-US relations. American arms supplies to India, estimated at $18 billion, have included sales of maritime patrol aircraft, 130 mm. artillery guns, C17 and C130 Transport aircraft and Apache Attack Helicopters. Moreover, further acquisitions from the US are under consideration. This is apart from bilateral agreements for practical military cooperation, and an unprecedented military basing agreement. Joint exercises between the militaries of India and the US are now a regular feature. While India shares some strategic objectives with the US, we cannot agree to give the US the right to veto our acquisitions from Russia, thereby adversely affecting our national security. The US made it clear that India opens itself to American sanctions if it undertakes any move to acquire the much-needed S400 Air Defence Missiles from Russia.
These missiles are unquestionably the best defences we can acquire to defend the Capital Delhi, other cities and strategic defence targets against attacks by missiles or aircraft, launched against them. Even the US does not possess such a missile defence system, which we need now more than ever, especially given the depleted strength of our Air Force.
China has already been targeted by the recent American legislation for acquiring the S400 Missile defence system and the SU 35 advanced fighter aircraft. US President Donald Trump has warned that India will “find out” how the US will react to the S300 Agreement “sooner than you think”.
While the S400 missile defence deal, could be subjected to American sanctions, there can be no question of us demeaning ourselves, by going with a virtual begging bowl to the Americans, asking them not to apply sanctions, on every arms deal, we propose to sign with Russia. We should bear in mind that there are several crucial weapons systems where we have decided, in principle, will be acquired from Russia.
Crucial weapons systems
These crucial weapons systems include lease of another nuclear attack (SSN) Submarine, over 200 Light Helicopters to be built in India, four naval frigates, conventional submarines to be largely built in Indian shipyards, and an estimated 6,00,000 AK103 assault rifles, also to be made in India. Our Jawans urgently need these rifles, as the present weapons they carry are far from satisfactory.
Following the recent American sanctions on arms purchases from Russia, India was faced with the prospect of its leading banks, with large dollar holdings, facing crippling American sanctions, if they made payments for large arms purchases from Russia. The only viable alternative for India and Russia was to devise measures to avoid and sidestep possible American pressures. We have now reportedly devised measures to face up to the threat of American financial sanctions.
One agreement signed during the Putin visit received little attention. This was an agreement reportedly between three Indian banks — Syndicate Bank, Indian Bank and Vijaya Bank — and Russia’s “Sberbank”. The Agreement reportedly facilitates payments for all Defence related transactions between India and Russia, not in the “Almighty” American dollar, but in rupees and Russian roubles. It remains to be seen whether and what sanctions Indian defence organisations involved in such transactions will be subjected to. Many of them could ironically be essential partners in any defence deal, which India decides to sign with the US also!
Three decades ago, the US threatened to cut off fuel supplies of enriched uranium for India’s Tarapur nuclear power plant, unless we agreed to place all our nuclear facilities under international safeguards. The then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi refused to oblige and turned to France for supply of nuclear fuel. Two decades later, former US President George Bush ended all unilateral nuclear restrictions on India.
One hopes that this will be remembered by the US, when it comes to its ill-advised sanctions on acquisitions of Russian arms by key Asian countries like Vietnam and Indonesia also. India, Vietnam, Indonesia, and the US, will derive no benefit from application of the present ill-advised American sanctions.
The writer is former High Commissioner of Pakistan