India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

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Rony
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rony » 25 Oct 2019 07:30

deleted

BPSingh
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby BPSingh » 25 Oct 2019 10:56

Primus wrote:
nachiket wrote:Our biggest problem is being ashamed/afraid of being Hindu, that is what makes us want to distance ourselves from our own.


Pardon my naivety, but why such obsession with religion in the first place? This whole idea of defining one's identity based on religion is a strange thing to me. Especially, when people on this forum go on and on about the other religions being fundamentalist and people doing bad things in the name of religions etc. Yet, we go around basing our entire world view on our religion and not as human beings. As someone who is a Hindu and moved to America in my teenage years, I don't necessarily feel the need to overtly communicate my religious beliefs. My religious believes were never threatened in that country. I understand that I may have had a different experience but it was typical of the Indians and other South Asians I know. I do however never shy away from being a proud Indian-American and I do want to emphasize both of those words and not just the Indian part. I am more interested in holding on to the culture of my birth land, the language, the music, especially the food :D !
All I see on this forum are self-obsessive posts that emphasize being a Hindu or an Indian above being a human being. The Islamophobia on this forum is frankly disturbing!
Indian-Americans care a lot more about their everyday lives than the US-India relationship, because frankly, it has little impact on their lives. They have issues like every other American, putting food on the table, looking after their families, enjoying life and meeting their goals and ambitions. It is just strange for me to read these posts because I find them so detached from the reality of most Indian-Americans.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ShyamSP » 25 Oct 2019 13:31

BPSingh wrote:
Primus wrote:


Pardon my naivety, but why such obsession with religion in the first place? This whole idea of defining one's identity based on religion is a strange thing to me. Especially, when people on this forum go on and on about the other religions being fundamentalist and people doing bad things in the name of religions etc. Yet, we go around basing our entire world view on our religion and not as human beings. As someone who is a Hindu and moved to America in my teenage years, I don't necessarily feel the need to overtly communicate my religious beliefs. My religious believes were never threatened in that country. I understand that I may have had a different experience but it was typical of the Indians and other South Asians I know. I do however never shy away from being a proud Indian-American and I do want to emphasize both of those words and not just the Indian part. I am more interested in holding on to the culture of my birth land, the language, the music, especially the food :D !
All I see on this forum are self-obsessive posts that emphasize being a Hindu or an Indian above being a human being. The Islamophobia on this forum is frankly disturbing!
Indian-Americans care a lot more about their everyday lives than the US-India relationship, because frankly, it has little impact on their lives. They have issues like every other American, putting food on the table, looking after their families, enjoying life and meeting their goals and ambitions. It is just strange for me to read these posts because I find them so detached from the reality of most Indian-Americans.


[clipped this reply as per Moderator suggestion]
Last edited by ShyamSP on 25 Oct 2019 22:53, edited 2 times in total.

Kashi
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Kashi » 25 Oct 2019 13:42

BPSingh wrote:[I find them so detached from the reality of most Indian-Americans.


Aren't you doing to saying, extrapolating "your" reality on a large and diverse group of people?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Karthik S » 25 Oct 2019 14:05

ShyamSP wrote:
BPSingh wrote:
Pardon my naivety, but why such obsession with religion in the first place? This whole idea of defining one's identity based on religion is a strange thing to me. Especially, when people on this forum go on and on about the other religions being fundamentalist and people doing bad things in the name of religions etc. Yet, we go around basing our entire world view on our religion and not as human beings. As someone who is a Hindu and moved to America in my teenage years, I don't necessarily feel the need to overtly communicate my religious beliefs. My religious believes were never threatened in that country. I understand that I may have had a different experience but it was typical of the Indians and other South Asians I know. I do however never shy away from being a proud Indian-American and I do want to emphasize both of those words and not just the Indian part. I am more interested in holding on to the culture of my birth land, the language, the music, especially the food :D !
All I see on this forum are self-obsessive posts that emphasize being a Hindu or an Indian above being a human being. The Islamophobia on this forum is frankly disturbing!
Indian-Americans care a lot more about their everyday lives than the US-India relationship, because frankly, it has little impact on their lives. They have issues like every other American, putting food on the table, looking after their families, enjoying life and meeting their goals and ambitions. It is just strange for me to read these posts because I find them so detached from the reality of most Indian-Americans.


Smells like a "Kerala, Bangalore" type?

This whole idea of defining one's identity based on "nation" is a strange thing to us in Earth, USA.



:rotfl:

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby pankajs » 25 Oct 2019 14:09

ShyamSP wrote:Smells like a "Kerala, Bangalore" type?

This whole idea of defining one's identity based on "nation" is a strange thing to us in Earth, USA.

Especially coming from a "woke" perspective! I mean, aren't they protesting "national" boundaries and agitating for "open borders" and defunding "ICE"? I would have though a more "world citizenship" and "free love" perspective would be the default.

Definitely "Kerala, Bangalore" type.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby vishvak » 25 Oct 2019 15:46

Would love to hear your experiences and (hopefully) tales of success after flowing with any of these lobbies.

My comments were from following viewpoint
* They are logical comments
* Minimal work needed to avoid shytstorm
* if there is ON CAMERA lynch mob in Khan lands, then Hindus better start pulling weight (and such and such) and not be content with looking up high towards higher powers.
that emphasize being a Hindu or an Indian above being a human being

Which brings to the fore something that leftists should so ie be enabler of freedom of speech and not mob it on camera. I am not saying that crusaders have fronted leftists and make debates saturated with sound bytes, nor that religious + pseudo-left are running together openly.

It is just that somewhere things have to be organized if lynch mobs have reached television and won't let a minority speak even to begin with.

Another point is that Hindus should take care that some discussion or debate doesn't become a platform for pseudo-lefty + religious and such exclusive groups to come together; and declare something legit - only after Hindus are made into followers of local interest groups, from being progressive minority living own life etc.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby BPSingh » 25 Oct 2019 17:41

ShyamSP wrote:
BPSingh wrote:
Smells like a "Kerala, Bangalore" type?

This whole idea of defining one's identity based on "nation" is a strange thing to us in Earth, USA.



Not sure what you mean by “Kerala, Bangalore” type but how quickly you resort to name calling just tells me you have nothing useful to add to the conversation.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby BPSingh » 25 Oct 2019 17:46

vishvak wrote:
Would love to hear your experiences and (hopefully) tales of success after flowing with any of these lobbies.

My comments were from following viewpoint
* They are logical comments
* Minimal work needed to avoid shytstorm
* if there is ON CAMERA lynch mob in Khan lands, then Hindus better start pulling weight (and such and such) and not be content with looking up high towards higher powers.
that emphasize being a Hindu or an Indian above being a human being

Which brings to the fore something that leftists should so ie be enabler of freedom of speech and not mob it on camera. I am not saying that crusaders have fronted leftists and make debates saturated with sound bytes, nor that religious + pseudo-left are running together openly.

It is just that somewhere things have to be organized if lynch mobs have reached television and won't let a minority speak even to begin with.

Another point is that Hindus should take care that some discussion or debate doesn't become a platform for pseudo-lefty + religious and such exclusive groups to come together; and declare something legit - only after Hindus are made into followers of local interest groups, from being progressive minority living own life etc.


I must have hit a nerve because you seem to be equating this verbal diarrhoea to an useful response. Kindly explain what you mean. Then we can have a conversation.

What I see from these responses just further confirms that all people seem to care about is religion and nothing else. Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the second generation Indians in the diaspora seem to be marrying outside the community. My guess is its because of such narrow attitudes of the first generation Indians.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby BPSingh » 25 Oct 2019 17:48

pankajs wrote:
ShyamSP wrote:Smells like a "Kerala, Bangalore" type?

This whole idea of defining one's identity based on "nation" is a strange thing to us in Earth, USA.

Especially coming from a "woke" perspective! I mean, aren't they protesting "national" boundaries and agitating for "open borders" and defunding "ICE"? I would have though a more "world citizenship" and "free love" perspective would be the default.

Definitely "Kerala, Bangalore" type.


Definitely not protesting national boundaries. I am a staunch believer in immigration control though I don’t like ICE’s methods. No interest in world citizenship either. Firm believer in national identity and national interests. I just don’t define nations by religion.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby pankajs » 25 Oct 2019 17:50

BPSingh wrote:
pankajs wrote:Especially coming from a "woke" perspective! I mean, aren't they protesting "national" boundaries and agitating for "open borders" and defunding "ICE"? I would have though a more "world citizenship" and "free love" perspective would be the default.

Definitely "Kerala, Bangalore" type.


Definitely not protesting national boundaries. I am a staunch believer in immigration control though I don’t like ICE’s methods. No interest in world citizenship either. Firm believer in national identity and national interests. I just don’t define nations by religion.

America is based on "Judeo-Christian" values ... Not my words. Doesn't matter what you think. It is always fun chatting with "woke" types who don't know the foundations/traditions of the land they hold dear.
Last edited by pankajs on 25 Oct 2019 17:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby BPSingh » 25 Oct 2019 17:52

Kashi wrote:
BPSingh wrote:[I find them so detached from the reality of most Indian-Americans.


Aren't you doing to saying, extrapolating "your" reality on a large and diverse group of people?


You are right that I am certainly extrapolating my views on a large group of people. My intention is to provide an alternative viewpoint to the one being presented here (which by the way is doing the same thing). Not every Indian American cares about India or religion. Most of the Indian Americans I know, well educated, middle class men and women, have no time for this religious identity and politics non sense.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby BPSingh » 25 Oct 2019 18:00

pankajs wrote:
BPSingh wrote:
Definitely not protesting national boundaries. I am a staunch believer in immigration control though I don’t like ICE’s methods. No interest in world citizenship either. Firm believer in national identity and national interests. I just don’t define nations by religion.

America is based on "Judeo-Christian" values ... Not my words. Doesn't matter what you think. It is always fun chatting with "woke" types who don't know the foundations/traditions of the land they hold dear.


That might speak to the majority but certainly not all Americans. There is something called freedom of speech and religion here. My only point is that everyone here seems eager to define everything through a “clash of civilisations/religions” lens. The world is far more complicated than that.
I suppose you would also say that India is based on Hindu values and you would be right. But what does that do to the 300 million plus people of other religions, including atheists? They seem to exist within the same “Hindu country” without being Hindu. Do you think that because India is based on Hindu values, non Hindus should have no place in India?

Finally, I love the labels being assigned without a discussion! You guys have already figured me out.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Oct 2019 18:13

Easy to talk freedom of religion when minority religions are less than 5%. Just like European/ Caucasian migration to the US, law abiding folks should also be allowed to migrate, those who are willing and able to work should be allowed.

And being the only country to have used nukes on civilians and fire bombings and in the past military armed countries like Pakistan. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright called Chittisinghpura Hindu militants it's pretty rich of you to lecture us.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rony » 25 Oct 2019 18:17

BPSingh wrote:Finally, I love the labels being assigned without a discussion! You guys have already figured me out.


Yes, because you are not the first one to come up with these kind of asinine arguments. And people are tired educating every newbie. There are dozens of posts in this forum which debated these things threadbare. Suggest you be in lurk mode and go through the forum first. And if you are not a newbie and still making these kind of arguments, then you are already deracinated and dont want to come out of it and in the wrong forum.
Last edited by Rony on 25 Oct 2019 18:28, edited 2 times in total.

pankajs
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby pankajs » 25 Oct 2019 18:22

BPSingh wrote:
pankajs wrote:America is based on "Judeo-Christian" values ... Not my words. Doesn't matter what you think. It is always fun chatting with "woke" types who don't know the foundations/traditions of the land they hold dear.


That might speak to the majority but certainly not all Americans. There is something called freedom of speech and religion here. My only point is that everyone here seems eager to define everything through a “clash of civilisations/religions” lens. The world is far more complicated than that.

I suppose you would also say that India is based on Hindu values and you would be right. But what does that do to the 300 million plus people of other religions, including atheists? They seem to exist within the same “Hindu country” without being Hindu. Do you think that because India is based on Hindu values, non Hindus should have no place in India?

Finally, I love the labels being assigned without a discussion! You guys have already figured me out.

Ah .. the pamus freedom of expression and religion. In the great land of America the limits are defined by "Judeo-Christian" values and on its terms. Nice!

I would propose the same in India. That would mean "freedom of speech and religion" within the overarching framework defined by "Indic" values. Hows that?

I though the world was zimple and that way we could have a common framework for "freedom of speech and religion" across the globe. Thank you for the reminder "world is far more complicated" .. Now, in spite of my good intentions, India will have to provide "freedom of speech and religion" under an "Indic" framework to account for the complexity of India rather than the zimplicity of America. American "freedom of speech and religion" cannot be directly transplanted in the Indic soil even when the principle remains the same. You see the difference.

See why it was so easy to classify you as a "woke" type. You talk of a "complicated world" but your solution is sameness across the world. That is signature of "wokeness". Wokeness, instead of solving issues end up creating complication with their childish broad brush generalization. You have ended up justifying the label.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby uddu » 25 Oct 2019 18:30

Who told you that Atheists cannot be Hindus? In America, freedom of religion means abusing other religions. In White Supremacist America the black people suffer on a daily basis. The nation of freedom cannot even agree to elect a black person as president (Obama don't count). Nor a Women and someone from the non-Christian communities can't even dream of such a post.
Last edited by uddu on 25 Oct 2019 19:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 25 Oct 2019 18:32

You guys have already figured me out.

Ah! ANOTHER compliment to the world-famous 4SPDA! :mrgreen:

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby pankajs » 25 Oct 2019 18:41

BPSingh wrote:
Something to ponder on that just crossed my feed.. not by an Indian or a Hindu.

https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/ ... 1008967680
Tom Holland @holland_tom {New history of Christianity - ‘Dominion’ - out now!}

The concept of 'religion', as it emerged in the aftermath of the Reformation, is one so deeply rooted in Christian theological presumptions that to apply the word to non-Christian ways of understanding the world is inevitably to risk christianising it.

https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/ ... 5749974016
Tom Holland @holland_tom

A challenge with English (as with other European languages) is that it has been so deeply marinaded in Christianity that it is almost impossible to write in it, and not betray Christian assumptions.

See how deeply "Christian" values have seeped into every small little thing in the West that you want India to copy lock stock and barrel.

Nothing has been spared, the concept of religion it self very "christianising" and the English language is built on "Christian assumptions". And you think that being a non-Christian (You may be a Atheist or a Muslim for all I care) in America you are not operating within the Judeo-Christian framework. :rotfl:

BTW, Is a Muslim allowed to have 4 wifes in your America like in most Muslim countries and why not?

A fish does not understand water or its pervasiveness when it is swimming in the sea/ocean.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ricky_v » 25 Oct 2019 18:58

BP singh ji, if you are truly a newbie then you have reached a crossroads in your life: whether to live as before or lurk through the repository here, both versions are i suppose compelling though most have never taken the first and are ergo here.If not, then this is not the place for you, as most of us already in sync broadly on the outlook of life and the schisms if any are for the finer print. You are free to follow either, you live in the land of extra freedom after all.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 25 Oct 2019 19:09

( Canadian experience, would be seen in the US to be sure)

I've noticed that some Indians in Canada, are hard on, or overly free with, other Indians. For minor things, Indians can get too critical of other Indians. This _may_ be okay( not great) if these critical Indians boldly did the same with non-Indians, particularly Caucasians. I'm sure that they don't! I've done a couple of very minor infractions( if they can be called that), and received a very negative response from other Indians. I rushed into a subway car and grabbed a seat, partly because I wanted to rest rather than stand. For doing that, another Indian shook his head for quite a few seconds while looking at me. In another incident almost 20 years ago at the Indian consulate in Toronto, I appeared to be turning the pages of a newspaper too quickly, causing a crackling sound. For that, this older Indian man( whose face would shatter any mirror) started mocking my actions. Totally unnecessary! I should have replied right there, 'if I had a face like that, even at your age, I wouldn't venture out of my house'.

Some Indians bring their image and memories of 'unruly, undisciplined Indians" with them into Canada, and apply it to any Indian/POI who commits the slightest questionable misstep. Again, this hypercritical behaviour might be understandable, if it were indiscriminate. Alas, it is not!

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KLNMurthy » 25 Oct 2019 20:18

BPSingh wrote:
ShyamSP wrote:



Not sure what you mean by “Kerala, Bangalore” type but how quickly you resort to name calling just tells me you have nothing useful to add to the conversation.

I am not sure if you just stumbled onto this forum and decided to join and pipe up? This is a kind of special-interest forum whose members proudly own the label of "jingos." Normally people who join and start contributing follow the forum in lurk mode, often for years, before they decide this is for them.

If you had followed the normal route, you would have known the "Kerala, Bangalore" quip.

Among the not-normal set there is a high percentage of bad-faith disruptors from the ah, Great Stinky Beyond. They provide entertaining distraction before they are dispatched.

I must be in a good mood to be explaining all this. Time for a jalebi maybe. You said you just love that Indian food. Do you like jalebis? Me, I need my fix every now and then.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 25 Oct 2019 20:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KLNMurthy » 25 Oct 2019 20:23

Karthik S wrote:Desis in khan land, how will propaganda such as congressional hearing affect you guys? Will common citizens develop negative opinion about Indians ? I heard few 'hate' directed at desis during khobragade incident.

Probably will have negligible effect on a day-to-day basis. Maybe more in academic circles where there tend to be more discussions, and some have to choose between suppressing their opinions and suffer social and even career harm.

Just one man's pov.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby darshan » 25 Oct 2019 22:00

I don't see common US citizens worked up about it. However, I definitely expect many ABCDs and many Indian American Hindus suffering from inferiority complex get into overdrive of self loathing.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby V_Raman » 25 Oct 2019 22:10

More than 50% of common Indians in USA will not even know this happened. 99% of natives will not know. Overall, doesn’t matter.

Heck - a maha guy did not even follow maha election!

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ShyamSP » 25 Oct 2019 22:42

V_Raman wrote:More than 50% of common Indians in USA will not even know this happened. 99% of natives will not know. Overall, doesn’t matter.

Heck - a maha guy did not even follow maha election!


Generally yes. But it is important Hindu/Indian-Americans produce counter content/data of arguments at the same time, so many years later based on some negative situation against India if state department or NYT type media pulls "atrocity literature" we have "counter-atrocity literature" from same time frame.
Last edited by ShyamSP on 25 Oct 2019 22:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby nachiket » 25 Oct 2019 22:46

Mod Note: Shyam and Pankajs, when you guys are perfectly capable of taking apart someone's arguments why resort to Bangalore, Kerala jibes? Stop that immediately. Can't believe I have to tell this to old timers like you.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Najunamar » 25 Oct 2019 23:40

Genuine pooch. How to vaccinate our own progeny of ABCDs against this dhimmitude? I have tried exposure to dharmic elements like Bibekji's Mahabharatha translation, but the relentless negative propagandu by Dhimmicrats needs some good rejoinders. I am glad to report both kids are non-self loathing proud Indian-Americans :mrgreen: :mrgreen: but it requires lot of effort...

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 25 Oct 2019 23:43

rushed into a subway car and grabbed a seat, partly because I wanted to rest rather than stand. For doing that, another Indian shook his head for quite a few seconds while looking at me

Ah! Due to sympathy, no doubt. Because he knew the seat was empty only because the prior occupant was a Paki hu had gone P there :mrgreen:

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Mort Walker » 25 Oct 2019 23:50

Najunamar wrote:Genuine pooch. How to vaccinate our own progeny of ABCDs against this dhimmitude? I have tried exposure to dharmic elements like Bibekji's Mahabharatha translation, but the relentless negative propagandu by Dhimmicrats needs some good rejoinders. I am glad to report both kids are non-self loathing proud Indian-Americans :mrgreen: :mrgreen: but it requires lot of effort...


True that. Present them with facts and they should see what is actually happening. But kids are kids and do the craziest things.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Primus » 25 Oct 2019 23:56

BPSingh wrote:
Primus wrote:


Pardon my naivety, but why such obsession with religion in the first place? This whole idea of defining one's identity based on religion is a strange thing to me. Especially, when people on this forum go on and on about the other religions being fundamentalist and people doing bad things in the name of religions etc. Yet, we go around basing our entire world view on our religion and not as human beings. As someone who is a Hindu and moved to America in my teenage years, I don't necessarily feel the need to overtly communicate my religious beliefs. My religious believes were never threatened in that country. I understand that I may have had a different experience but it was typical of the Indians and other South Asians I know. I do however never shy away from being a proud Indian-American and I do want to emphasize both of those words and not just the Indian part. I am more interested in holding on to the culture of my birth land, the language, the music, especially the food :D !
All I see on this forum are self-obsessive posts that emphasize being a Hindu or an Indian above being a human being. The Islamophobia on this forum is frankly disturbing!
Indian-Americans care a lot more about their everyday lives than the US-India relationship, because frankly, it has little impact on their lives. They have issues like every other American, putting food on the table, looking after their families, enjoying life and meeting their goals and ambitions. It is just strange for me to read these posts because I find them so detached from the reality of most Indian-Americans.


Since Mr. Singh seems to have directed the discussion at me, I will try to respond. I know a lot has been said already and I may not add anything new, but I think it is important to understand where he is coming from.

BP Singh Ji, your arguments are really no different from what I've been hearing from the younger generation (and even of my own gen) of Indians in the US.

First, I doubt very much you really understand what 'being a Hindu' means. The problem with 'living in America' is that you tend to view everything through an American lens. Can't blame you, that is how it is unless you actively pursue a different path. So your concept of Hinduism is limited to what you see around you - pujas and rituals as you've grown up with. The same with your understanding of Islam. To be human is indeed what Sanatan Dharma is about.

To really know why we here are so 'islamophobic' you would have to do some real studying, I highly recommend you start with the Koran itself. If you prefer a shortcut, just read the first chapter of 'Islamic Jihad' written by M.A. Khan, a muslim - you can find it on Amazon.

But the real work ahead will be to read the history of India and the subcontinent. It is not going to be easy but looks like you have at least a modicum of interest in India else why would you be on BRF? There are a lot of books and resources out there, I am sure you can find for yourself or many here can recommend some. If you are a Sikh, your own history is enough.

As for what is a Hindu, that is going to be even harder. Most people do not have a clue, especially those who've grown up outside of India unless their parents made extra efforts to teach them.

The sad thing about young Indians in the US is that most of them have become really deracinated. It is not enough to enjoy the food, the festivals, the music and the occasional visits to desh. You need to understand where all this comes from, the ethos behind it, the vast knowledge of the Gita and the Upanishads, even if you are an atheist, there is a whole world within the concept of Sanatan Dharma that encompasses the Cosmos and our relationship with it.

I won't talk about how the US treats its minorities and whether it is a truly egalitarian society. Enough has been said already. Perhaps you might instead want to find out how India treats its minorities. How the civil laws are different for them, how the religious institutions and schools are run differently, how there are national holidays for all the major faiths, how over the past 70 yrs minorities in India have done better than they have anywhere else in the world - in comparison to and often, at the expense of the majority.

I am sure you have Jewish friends, have you ever discussed faith and how being Jewish matters to them? No matter how 'reformed' they may be, the majority of Jews send their kids to Hebrew school - at least for a few years, teach them about their history and send them on tours to the Holocaust memorials and locations around the world. Many serve in the Israeli army for a term.

They may appear as the rest of America, even eat pork and not observe any religious rituals or events, and yet, when their faith or when Israel is threatened in any way, they come together as a single entity to defend their beliefs.

There is a lot to be learnt from them. And that, I believe is the biggest failing of my generation of immigrants - in the pursuit of a career, I sometimes fear we've sacrificed our beliefs, resulting in the younger generation being of the mindset of our newbie friend here.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 26 Oct 2019 00:56

Primus wrote:To really know why we here are so 'islamophobic' you would have to do some real studying, I highly recommend you start with the Koran itself. If you prefer a shortcut, just read the first chapter of 'Islamic Jihad' written by M.A. Khan, a muslim - you can find it on Amazon.
...


I would add two more books to the list which are especially useful for Hindu-Americans and Indian-Americans in general.

Both are by Rajiv Malhotra --

Being Different

Invading the Sacred: This one lays out the Hinduphobia in Indic/Religious/Divinity Studies departments in the American Academy.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 26 Oct 2019 01:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby nachiket » 26 Oct 2019 00:57

To be fair though, Jews have their own versions of "Angana Chatterjees" who will condemn Israel, Zionism and Netanyahu while jumping to the defense of the likes of Ilhan Omar when she makes anti-semitic comments. They have their version of "The Hindu" as well in Haaretz which is infested with leftists who once proclaimed that the Israeli religious right was worse than Hezbollah.

Unlike in our case though, the people among them who counter this propaganda and leftist nonsense are far more vocal, organized and influential in the West. And that is partly because the majority of Jews in the west have not been deracinated and forgotten their roots like Primus ji said in his post. ANd also because they have just been in the west far longer and are truly enmeshed in Western Academia and think-tanks and even the government and bureaucracy.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 26 Oct 2019 01:08

BPSingh wrote:
pankajs wrote:America is based on "Judeo-Christian" values ... Not my words. Doesn't matter what you think. It is always fun chatting with "woke" types who don't know the foundations/traditions of the land they hold dear.


That might speak to the majority but certainly not all Americans. There is something called freedom of speech and religion here. My only point is that everyone here seems eager to define everything through a “clash of civilisations/religions” lens. The world is far more complicated than that.
I suppose you would also say that India is based on Hindu values and you would be right. But what does that do to the 300 million plus people of other religions, including atheists? They seem to exist within the same “Hindu country” without being Hindu. Do you think that because India is based on Hindu values, non Hindus should have no place in India?

Finally, I love the labels being assigned without a discussion! You guys have already figured me out.


BP Singh ji, could you please go through, even if cursorily, this thread Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-2014) and its previous avatar. Respond there as well. I am sure your analysis will be welcome, one way or the other :mrgreen:

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rony » 26 Oct 2019 03:06

I am suprised that BPSingh mentioned "Islamophobia" in this forum but never mentioned Hinduphobia in his country which is well documented by Hindu victims and personally effects many Hindus in US. While Christian and Church inspired Hinduphobia (calling Hindus as devil worshippers etc ) is well known, most of the Hinduphobia in the campuses is pedelled by self proclaimed "progressives" in the garb of freedom of expression or opposing Hindutva. Unlike Christians or Muslims or Jews in US who gets slammed by one side but equally supported by the other side, Hindus get slammed by both the left and the right and have no supporters or allies from any side.

Hinduphobia fueled by misinformation, persists on college campuses

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rudradev » 26 Oct 2019 03:17

KLNM ji and others:

How many of you have visited https://www.hafsite.org/ ? Has anyone here actually engaged or interacted with this group (Hindu American Foundation)?

For what it's worth they seem to be doing some good work, and have been at it a long time. I'm planning to attend their event in the Greater Philadelphia area on December 7th.

Here is Suhag Shukla from HAF being interviewed on the Sham Sharma show Youtube channel.



To avoid the problem somebody mentioned earlier of "five associations for every four Indians" ... maybe it's time to rally behind existing, organised groups that actually have something going. Regardless of whether we think everything about them is perfect or not.

Otherwise we will be permanently doomed by the crabs-in-basket legacy of petty jealousies that we're well aware of: a tendency to hold hefty opinions backed by featherweight capabilities, a penchant to worship the bully in public and kick the dog at home, and a tendency to apply all kinds of litmus tests on each others' ideological purity while seeking every mercenary opportunity to advance ourselves.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rudradev » 26 Oct 2019 03:47

BPSingh wrote:
pankajs wrote:America is based on "Judeo-Christian" values ... Not my words. Doesn't matter what you think. It is always fun chatting with "woke" types who don't know the foundations/traditions of the land they hold dear.



I suppose you would also say that India is based on Hindu values and you would be right. But what does that do to the 300 million plus people of other religions, including atheists? They seem to exist within the same “Hindu country” without being Hindu. Do you think that because India is based on Hindu values, non Hindus should have no place in India?



This is such a classic (and poorly executed) strawman argument that I'm surprised it wasn't spotted before :D

First the question is asked: "what does India being based on Hindu values... DO to X million non-Hindus who live in India?"

Because Mr. B.P. Singh does not await a sincere answer with any semblance of good faith, it is clear that he intends this as a rhetorical question, setting up a portrayal of non-Hindus in Hindu India as helpless and disempowered (at the very least) or victims of organised oppression (at worst).

Then he is kind enough to suggest an answer for us... do WE think that, because India is based on Hindu values, non-Hindus should have no place in India? (This from someone who claims to be a "Hindu" and therefore may be presumed to have at least a rudimentary understanding of Hindu values :roll: )

Without question, Mr. B.P. Singh has rather clumsily outed himself and his agenda right there. Irony, meanwhile, has died 300 million deaths; Mr. B.P. Singh complains about others "labeling" him as "woke" while he deigns to spell out our (Islamophobic, genocidal, anti-minority) position for us without ever being asked.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 26 Oct 2019 05:32

4SPDA. :mrgreen:

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rahul M » 26 Oct 2019 09:22

are always asking why some people are Islamophobic. Funny thing, I haven't heard anyone say things like "why are people so naziphobic?"

If one compares the history of both, Nazi holocaust is like a kindergarten feud as compared to what befell non-Muslims in Asia, sub continent in particular. Heck, it is still happening today.
So why is hating Nazi ideology ok but something that has worse excesses to its name mollycoddled ?

Is it because the victims of Nazism were Europeans first and foremost and deserve all our sympathies while Hindus are bloody heathens who are barely human as per the Eurocentric worldview that inherently underpins western ideology?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rony » 26 Oct 2019 09:23

Brilliantly articulated

Watching the House Foreign Affairs Committee’s Hearing on Human Rights in South Asia was like having a front row seat to a Colonizer Board Meeting

I just had no idea how openly bigoted our progressive elected officials could be, running a curated story about human rights violations that relied so blatantly on circular logic, colonizing tropes, and selective concern. It also reaffirmed, for me, the deadly combination (no exaggeration) of American (United States) entitlement, exceptionalism, and willful ignorance that plagues this nation and has hurt so much of the rest of the world.

I have come to recognize that what makes Hinduphobia so insidious is that it promotes anti-Hinduism and anti-Hindu fear as socially and morally good. It is the modern version of old-school colonizing, missionary rhetoric. Which means it is completely camouflaged and very difficult for people to understand.

Hindus cannot speak counternarratives to the anti-Hindu master narrative without being deemed fascist (which is not only ironic, but precisely and painfully how colonization works) and accused of legitimizing the “Hindu nationalist regime.” What I came to learn during the hearing was that Hindus are not even allowed to take a “neutral” stance, where we defensively forefront the plight of other communities and don’t speak about Hindus. Hindus are only taken seriously by the West if we reinforce — with vigor and “insider authority” — the dominant anti-Hindu narrative: that Hinduism is fundamentally corrupt. This is framed by determinations of the Indian subaltern that are sourced in the Western Academy and also by the convenient framework of “Hindu” that is deployed by these same people, which allows only them to define what is Hindu.

It is telling that, as an emergent scholar, whenever I have mentioned “Hindu identity” in an academic setting, the first — and often only — question I have been asked is about examining caste privilege. Not once have I been asked what it’s like to be a descendant from an ancient indigenous civilization that survived a thousand years of colonization, living in a world that is dominated by the two religions that colonized us.

Indian agency and the right to act upon legitimate Indian security concerns do not appear to register to the U.S. government; two U.S. Congresswoman of color warned Secretary Wells and Aarti Tikoo Singh about bringing Pakistan into the conversation. As a lifelong New Yorker, this immediately recalls 9/11. The U.S. can strip us of our shoes at the airport for twenty years because of one attack in 2001, but India is not permitted any allowance to protect herself? In fact, Secretary Wells had to repeatedly remind the committee that India is a functioning democracy; this was met with words and looks of barely disguised disdain. Members of the government openly scoffed at this. Remember, the infantilization of and disdain for brown people’s intelligence and our ability to self-govern is a hallmark of the colonizer.

At one point, U.S. Congressman Yoho (the Ranking Republican member of the Committee) bemoaned the fact that other countries could not seem to live up to the high standards of the United States (details in my analysis below). He said this without a trace of irony. Sir, it is not India’s highest objective to become more like the United States, in 2019 or in any other year. Contrary to what most of the committee seemed to believe, the United States did not invent cultural and religious plurality. The assumption that it did and India ought to become like the U.S. — through force if needed — is the kind of civilizing, “modernizing” logic that is at the foundation of colonization and, unfortunately, also that of the hearing.

U.S. understandings of religious bigotry are not grounded and informed by the same scope of history as India’s. In the United States, Islamophobia and anti-Semitism are recognized (in progressive circles) on personal, systemic, and discursive levels, as they should be. People understand well that asking a Muslim to answer to Islamic fundamentalism when they are sharing a story about Islamophobia is the very definition of Islamophobia. Hindus are not afforded this same logic. Hinduphobia is (maybe) recognized if the news reports a violent attack on a Hindu person. Broader, systemic Hinduphobic narratives are not only unrecognized, they are elevated as socially just.

But does this even matter to Hindus living in India? On one hand, I get the criticism coming from Hindus in India. Who cares about what a group of ignorant, imperialist, narcissistic U.S. government officials think? India is a sovereign nation with agency, democratic mechanisms, and a high level of self-awareness. India doesn’t need U.S. approval. Coming from a post-colonial nation, that sentiment makes a lot of sense.

At the same time, this sentiment ignores the reality. This isn’t about approval, nor is it appropriate to assume that every country exists in a vacuum, which we know isn’t true. The U.S. and India exist within global circuits of power and money and the military industrial complex and international alliances (e.g. the U.S. with Pakistan) that very much have an impact on the lives of Indian Hindus. The American Academy has been the production house of Hinduphobia since it took over from the German and British Academies in the middle of the 20th century, when “colonization ended.” Academic, media, and pop-activist Hinduphobic constructions from the West(ern perspective) impact how governments think about Hinduism and India, and ignoring it isn’t going to make it go away. It’s not going anywhere. If anything, it’s spreading.


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