India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
mappunni
BRFite
Posts: 115
Joined: 14 Jul 2017 19:07

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby mappunni » 08 Nov 2019 06:23

Vayutuvan wrote:
Ramana wrote:Republicans don't want Hispanic immigrants as they are the Democrat vote base but their farm base wants cheap labor.


Added to that, Hispanics are catholic and conservative. Many (but not a majority) vote GOP.


In Texas the second and third and beyond generation Chicanos, detest illegals. In fact, many Chicano businesses exploit these illegals and then throw them out.

There is no lost love for illegals among the Hispanics too!

VenkataS
BRFite
Posts: 253
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 03:38

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby VenkataS » 08 Nov 2019 13:02

Vayutuvan wrote:
VenkataS wrote:Look at the following video where an Iranian immigrant mocks Indians by presenting the Senator a green index card and Senator playing along with him.
https://twitter.com/psyinfeld/status/11 ... 9877427200


I can't get to the video as that account has become private. Is that video available elsewhere? I have gone through the writeup on medium. Dick Durbin is a di*k.


Vayutuvan - Does it not open while you are logged in to your Twitter account.

ManSingh
BRFite
Posts: 131
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 17:30

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ManSingh » 08 Nov 2019 18:54

VenkataS wrote:Indians in USA, those who do not yet have their green cards are looking at a decades long wait in the green card backlog. This affects all Indian applicants in the US including those working for big companies such as Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon etc and not just those working for desi IT companies. Any India born applicant who has applied after 2010 in EB2/Eb3 category will not get their green cards for another 10 years at least. Infact new India born applicants in the EB2 category are looking at a potential wait time of 70 years before they get their green card. Most would die before they get their green cards and many are dying every month leaving their widows/spouses having to grieve and also uproot their families and self deport themselves.

Indian software engineer in Green Card backlog dies suddenly, leaving pregnant wife out of status
https://www.americanbazaaronline.com/20 ... us-439189/

This situation is because of per country limits in employment green cards. Employment based green cards (140,000 annually) constitute a small fraction of the total number of green cards issued every year (about 14%). However they discriminate an applicant based on where they are born. As a result a person not yet born practically anywhere else on earth will have a better chance of getting a green card sooner than an Indian applicant already in the US with a US Masters degree or higher and in the green card backlog for the past 5 years.

A solution here is to eliminate per country limits and make the situation fairer as has been proposed with the S386 "Fairness for high skilled immigrants act of 2019" introduced in the senate. A companion bill in the House HR 1044 passed with a 365 - 65 vote margin. However this bill has been blocked by Democratic Senator Durbin (Illinois) not allowing it to be brought to the Senate floor for a vote through unanimous consent.
However the way that Senator Durbin mocks Indians egged on by Iranian supporters is what is most disturbing.

US senator Richard J Durbin under attack for mocking Indians
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne ... KuLPK.html

Look at the following video where an Iranian immigrant mocks Indians by presenting the Senator a green index card and Senator playing along with him.
https://twitter.com/psyinfeld/status/11 ... 9877427200

Here is a first hand account of what happened at the above townhall by an Indian immigrant:
Senator Durbin’s Non-Constituent Coffee
https://medium.com/@jdjs.121118/senator ... 723b536625

One of the reasons that this bill hasn't progressed on the Senate floor is a lack of empathy for the situation of Indian immigrants even from Indian Americans let alone people like Democrat RO Khanna who goes ahead and joins Pakistani caucus.


Off topic but the real reason this hasn't progressed is a lack of negotiation skill, tactics on the part of the representative organization "Immigration Voice" and their lawyer. They essentially turned bipartisan support into a republican vs democrat thing.
S.386 was never going to pass as is because it basically ensures all EB green cards go to one industry, one country for the next 15 years. Not that it is a bad thing but the impact on other industries would have been huge. No oil industry engrs from BP, no baseball players, no insurance executives from Europe etc.

The impact would have been huge. It requires dealing with tact and not going in with all or nothing. Besides there are holds from both sides. Durbin is the only public hold and for some reason IV wants Indians to believe that Durbin is the oly hold out.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12764
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Nov 2019 19:10

^ Thanks for the explanation, ManSinghji.

This is another example of why the US needs to revamp (as in completely new) the whole immigration/citizenship system, with a fresh look at history as well as future needs. The system is now so complex and muddled that no one knows the effects of another BandAid here or incision there. And it has become gridlocked, which is the cruellest of all, with people just left in limbo.
Have you (not aimed at ManSinghji!) folks ever wondered we don't hear the term "Skills Drain" referring to H1B changing to GC? Its always only "Brain Drain" referring to students who are really seeking their first opportunity that anyone might give them anywhere. In other words, it is(was, decades ago at least) precisely the "wretched refuse (WR) from your shores" that countries like India "allowed" (forced) to go to the US etc (oh yeah, but only if these wretches wanted a chance to eat.). These are the ppl who became PIGS and then climbed up to get their heads above water and soared, at which point the Usual Quarters diss them as money-grubbing traitors etc.

Maybe the US should go back to the original theme. India has come a very long way in recent years since NDA-1 came to power, treating the "WR" with some respect, at least calling them PBs, PIOs and now OCIs rather than just "Brasht" as the cretins used to in the past. Opportunities inside India have zoomed. At least a small part of this (like maybe 90%) is attributable to contact with, if not direct initiatives of, the WR. Which makes one wonder....

ManSingh
BRFite
Posts: 131
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 17:30

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ManSingh » 08 Nov 2019 20:28

UlanBatori wrote:^ Thanks for the explanation, ManSinghji.

This is another example of why the US needs to revamp (as in completely new) the whole immigration/citizenship system, with a fresh look at history as well as future needs. The system is now so complex and muddled that no one knows the effects of another BandAid here or incision there. And it has become gridlocked, which is the cruellest of all, with people just left in limbo.
Have you (not aimed at ManSinghji!) folks ever wondered we don't hear the term "Skills Drain" referring to H1B changing to GC? Its always only "Brain Drain" referring to students who are really seeking their first opportunity that anyone might give them anywhere. In other words, it is(was, decades ago at least) precisely the "wretched refuse (WR) from your shores" that countries like India "allowed" (forced) to go to the US etc (oh yeah, but only if these wretches wanted a chance to eat.). These are the ppl who became PIGS and then climbed up to get their heads above water and soared, at which point the Usual Quarters diss them as money-grubbing traitors etc.

Maybe the US should go back to the original theme. India has come a very long way in recent years since NDA-1 came to power, treating the "WR" with some respect, at least calling them PBs, PIOs and now OCIs rather than just "Brasht" as the cretins used to in the past. Opportunities inside India have zoomed. At least a small part of this (like maybe 90%) is attributable to contact with, if not direct initiatives of, the WR. Which makes one wonder....


No ji for me please.

You raise some good points. I believe your view point is colored with your past experiences which is fine as my view point is colored too by my experiences. However since I find them a bit negative, may I correct them:

1) H1b are not in any way lesser than students coming to desh. I have seen a WITCH company tech arch jump to a fortune 50 firm as a PTA almost immediately after arriving. This is just one example.

2) I myself came in such a manner. Now work with a team of 10 east european/russians with only 1 american engineer and 1 Indian ( myself ). Not boasting anything but I do not enjoy the commentary against H1b's :D .

3) I did try and study master's degree part time. Guess which nationality and group forms most of the class. Yes, Indians on H1b and/or Indians pursuing remotely from Bangalore.

4) If "Opportunities" have increased so has "Competition".

I do not find an improvement in attitude towards PIO, OCI or H1b living in US. It takes me longer and have to pass through more hoops to get a document from the local Indian embassy than to get an H1B approval even in current times. Last time I had to pay two "Cashier cheques" of $3 each as contribution to local Indian welfare fund. I am Ok with paying though I never get invited to any welfare activity nor have I heard of one. But a $3 cheque costs $10 bank fees each plus time off work. Why couldn't they include it in the fees for the document itself or provide more convenient options. Simple answer they don't care about our convenience, simply a cash dispensing machine.

VenkataS
BRFite
Posts: 253
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 03:38

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby VenkataS » 08 Nov 2019 23:03

ManSingh wrote:
VenkataS wrote:Indians in USA, those who do not yet have their green cards are looking at a decades long wait in the green card backlog. This affects all Indian applicants in the US including those working for big companies such as Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon etc and not just those working for desi IT companies. Any India born applicant who has applied after 2010 in EB2/Eb3 category will not get their green cards for another 10 years at least. Infact new India born applicants in the EB2 category are looking at a potential wait time of 70 years before they get their green card. Most would die before they get their green cards and many are dying every month leaving their widows/spouses having to grieve and also uproot their families and self deport themselves.

Indian software engineer in Green Card backlog dies suddenly, leaving pregnant wife out of status
https://www.americanbazaaronline.com/20 ... us-439189/

This situation is because of per country limits in employment green cards.

One of the reasons that this bill hasn't progressed on the Senate floor is a lack of empathy for the situation of Indian immigrants even from Indian Americans let alone people like Democrat RO Khanna who goes ahead and joins Pakistani caucus.


Off topic but the real reason this hasn't progressed is a lack of negotiation skill, tactics on the part of the representative organization "Immigration Voice" and their lawyer. They essentially turned bipartisan support into a republican vs democrat thing.
S.386 was never going to pass as is because it basically ensures all EB green cards go to one industry, one country for the next 15 years. Not that it is a bad thing but the impact on other industries would have been huge. No oil industry engrs from BP, no baseball players, no insurance executives from Europe etc.

The impact would have been huge. It requires dealing with tact and not going in with all or nothing. Besides there are holds from both sides. Durbin is the only public hold and for some reason IV wants Indians to believe that Durbin is the oly hold out.


Mansingh - Thanks for your reply. I would like to counter some of your points since you raised them. So what you are saying that it is OK for Indians to suffer and not have green cards for several decades but it is not OK for the following persons to be on H1B and have to wait for a green card for between 5-10 years "oil industry engrs from BP, no baseball players, no insurance executives from Europe etc."
Why would these Industries suffer, they would be employing H1Bs who would be in a green card backlog queue which would serve individuals on a first come first served basis without discriminating on the place of their birth.
Are you saying that big IT companies including companies like Facebook, Amazon etc are suffering because they have huge number of Indians on H1B in the green card backlog. No they are not, in fact it is very advantageous for them to have these employees as they are indentured labor for them who most likely will not switch companies because of fear of losing their line in the green card backlog.
There is a 3 year transition period for the bill where a certain percentage of EB2 and EB3 green cards are reserved for Individuals who are not from the two highest backlogged countries. This can be negotiated to 6 years for example. But what Durbin is asking for is an increase in the number of green cards which will be a poison pill for the bill.

ManSingh
BRFite
Posts: 131
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 17:30

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ManSingh » 08 Nov 2019 23:55

VenkataS wrote:
ManSingh wrote:
Off topic but the real reason this hasn't progressed is a lack of negotiation skill, tactics on the part of the representative organization "Immigration Voice" and their lawyer. They essentially turned bipartisan support into a republican vs democrat thing.
S.386 was never going to pass as is because it basically ensures all EB green cards go to one industry, one country for the next 15 years. Not that it is a bad thing but the impact on other industries would have been huge. No oil industry engrs from BP, no baseball players, no insurance executives from Europe etc.

The impact would have been huge. It requires dealing with tact and not going in with all or nothing. Besides there are holds from both sides. Durbin is the only public hold and for some reason IV wants Indians to believe that Durbin is the oly hold out.


Mansingh - Thanks for your reply. I would like to counter some of your points since your raised them. So what you are saying that it is OK for Indians to suffer and not have green cards for several decades but it is not OK for the following persons to be on H1B and have to wait for a green card for between 5-10 years "oil industry engrs from BP, no baseball players, no insurance executives from Europe etc."
Why would these Industries suffer, they would be employing H1Bs who would be in a green card backlog queue which would serve individuals on a first come first served basis without discriminating on the place of their birth.
Are you saying that big IT companies including companies like Facebook, Amazon etc are suffering because they have huge number of Indians on H1B in the green card backlog. No they are not, in fact it is very advantageous for them to have these employees as they are indentured labor for them who most likely will not switch companies because of fear of losing their line in the green card backlog.


I kind of expected this response.

Firstly I speak as a friend. Not everyone who opposes s.386 is a hater. Let's get that out of the way first.

Its absolutely not OK for anyone to have to go through the wait.I believe I485 is an unnecessary roadblock. The market has already been tested during PERM and canidate eligibility during I140. I485 serves no purpose other than maintain a racial mix.

1) H1b-> GC route is used by mostly software industry( used to be mainly Indian consultancy firms) plus students coming to study STEM in usa.

2) This route is not used by other industries. In fact many industries are ineligible for H1b as h1b only applies to STEM. Even MBA grads have a history of having h1b rejected as not eligible.
The other industries simply apply for PERM and wait for GC to come through.

3) Every year an equivalent of what would be 50000 I485 applications are added by Indians every year. Removing country caps means number of immigrant visa's available to Indians would increase from 3k to 20K. So the backlog will never be cleared. In fact it will ensure that H1b to GC is the only route available disqualifying everyone else forever.

4) The EB2 backlog currently for India is estimates to be 500K plus. Divide by 20K and the number or years to clear current backlog is in excess of 20 years.

The math simply does not work with the country cap removal except for PD 2010-2013 maybe. Someone with my PD waits 25 years. So does it reduce wait times. Yes from 80 years to 25 which is a drastic improvement. But is it really going to help me?

I wish I had a better answer. I don't want to depress anyone but sometimes it is best to look out for oneself and maybe consider alternatives.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12764
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Nov 2019 00:05

ManSingh, I am not at all negative about H1B people going to US or equivalents all over the world. They are an absolutely unique aspect of cultural history: a wave of "invaders" who, far from invading violently, go as traders, but live and work under the laws and with the society of the "invaded" country, to the benefit of all. Millions of Ambassadors.

But my point is that they are the spearhead of Indian Skills, and losing them as Permanent Residents and then citizens of another nation is a REAL drain, of people already educated and trained in the Indian system.

So India should (IMO of course, and heading to caves now..) if anything, worry first about pressing Yoo Ess etc to streamline opportunities for the PIGS, instead of keeping on trying to have a deluge of Skilled Forces "defecting".

Point is that India never gave opportunity to the PIGS: just treated them as Wretched Refuse. The H1Bs are representatives of Indian Corporations. They have a home and something to hold on to.

******* Grudge... one of hajaar-hajaar.. :twisted: *****

I tried to go get a Loan from the State Bank of India under their just-announced Loan Scheme For Good Students to Go Abroad and Pursue Higher Studies. Went there happily with my Cee Pee Ay (now Americanized to Jee Pee Ay) and My Good Character references and my Offer Letters. Scumbags demanded that my parents mortgage the ancestral hut to give me the money for the airfare!!!!!! (around 6000 Rupees in those dins). What if the plane had crashed?

I showed the middle ungli (well... figuratively). Siblings loaned me their entire paycheques. Of course it was a good investment all round: desh got rid of me, IQ of India and Mongolia went up simultaneously, etc, and I did pay them back.

Yes, my attitude is sure "colored".

VenkataS
BRFite
Posts: 253
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 03:38

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby VenkataS » 09 Nov 2019 00:14

ManSingh wrote:
I kind of expected this response.

Firstly I speak as a friend. Not everyone who opposes s.386 is a hater. Let's get that out of the way first.

Its absolutely not OK for anyone to have to go through the wait.I believe I485 is an unnecessary roadblock. The market has already been tested during PERM and canidate eligibility during I140. I485 serves no purpose other than maintain a racial mix.

1) H1b-> GC route is used by mostly software industry( used to be mainly Indian consultancy firms) plus students coming to study STEM in usa.


I did not presume you were a hater and did not imply that you were one either. Right now the current system is unfair and discriminates Indians on the basis of their birth when a potential employer does not and need not look at a persons place of birth.

Right now it is only Indians who are fighting for legal high skilled immigration reform. Everybody else is OK with the status quo. This will change if this bill passes. If this bill passes everybody would be in the same boat, as a result it will not be a case of Indians versus the rest of the world immigrants. In the current political climate, no bill which increases the number of green cards has a chance of passing if Indians alone are the affected group. The only chance for an improvement is if this bill passes and rest of the world applicants experience the pain of having to be in the green card backlog and work in unison to fix legal high skilled immigration.

Plus wait times reduction from 70 years to 25 years is an improvement right. Also I do not think it is 25 years if you are already have a PD, there are 80000 visas in EB2 and EB3. If the current backlog is 500000 then would it not mean that it will be cleared at the most in 10 years for folks already in the backlog if not fewer.
Last edited by VenkataS on 09 Nov 2019 01:05, edited 2 times in total.

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10210
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 09 Nov 2019 00:46

VenkataS wrote:Vayutuvan - Does it not open while you are logged in to your Twitter account.


That account has some privacy setting. I cannot seethe tweets unless I follow the account. When I clicked follow, it shows "Pending". Owner has to let me follow, I guess. Maybe she got threats and $h17 from Durbiners/Donkeystanis/Islamists.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Atmavik, kvraghav, nits and 21 guests