India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

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Rony
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rony » 04 Jun 2020 05:31

From Vamsee Juluri

Image


From Aravindan Neelakandan

For us Hindus every life matters - black lives, Jewish lives, Yazidi lives, Tibetan lives, Baluchi lives, native American lives, Australian aborigines lives and also the lives of Muslims persecuted by Chinese State.

Rejecting as I do every aspect of Islam, we cannot turn down our humanism against State violence of genocidal proportions because they are Muslims. We reject monopolistic expansionism. We resolve to fight every strategy of proselytizing organizations. But we will never give up our humanity. We know the pain of ethnic cleansing. We know it in Kashmir. We know the pain of genocide in Pakistan and Bangladesh. We know the pain of hateful stereotypes.

But we also know the perversions of what passes on as left in this country which colludes and shares more with white supremacists of the world - crypto-white supremacists like those who comment in private 'he would have served as coffee a generation back'on Obama.

Marxist left in India is worse than Neo-con of the West. So naturally the word 'left' is viewed in India by us political Hindus with suspicion. Even that should not make fall into the trap of Western right-wing. Western culture and its values have to change fundamentally. Hindus need to work for that. Waiting for that day when Hindus inthe West particularly in the US and Australia, voice for the land rights and spiritual rights of indigenous people. We are right now giving that space to the Church which is appropriating the forms bereft of spirit of these native people. Similarly, we Hindus need to take the challenge of taking Vedantic humanism to the Blacks of the United States. Vedanta alone can bridge the racial inequalities with social harmony without compromising social justice.


One interesting aspect I find in the Western secular humanist movement is the proportional absence of blacks. It is mostly dominated by white males.Brilliant and humanistic as they are, still the absence of blacks in the secular humanist movement is very well there. And the dominance of Christian pastoral presence in the black civil rights (secular humanists there playing at best sympathetic role) is also another interesting phenomenon. Perhaps this should provide Dharmic Hindus in the United States an opportunity to find the space for Vedantic humanism to play a role to bring both social justice and harmony among diverse. The experience there can also help Hindus back home - not in a preachy way- where social justice has been mired in anti-Hindu and anti-Brahminical racist narratives of colonial era.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby ricky_v » 04 Jun 2020 05:55

^^ I think hinduism as a whole should get not enmeshed in the virus of the west, otherwise it may travel backwards and the usage of swastika in india may be banned for being offensive to certain people. The west is too far removed now for any religion to help, in their 60 year defined worldview out of the 5000 of recorded history of mankind, they will attach labels of sexist, misogynist, homophobe to revered figures and demand answers and apologies from adherents. Individuals may do as they please, but imo only 1 matrix can clear the other, these people want comforting lies and remission of guilt, dharma cannot help them.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby m_saini » 04 Jun 2020 06:44

To be brutally honest, West doesn't need dharma or it's saving. They are doing just fine.

While we, with all our dharma in all it's glory, have a nation hell bent on flaming wars on our north-west and crazy religious fundamentalists on our west. And they have been here for decades. How will dharma save them when it can't even save us?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rony » 04 Jun 2020 08:35

m_saini wrote:To be brutally honest, West doesn't need dharma or it's saving. They are doing just fine.

While we, with all our dharma in all it's glory, have a nation hell bent on flaming wars on our north-west and crazy religious fundamentalists on our west. And they have been here for decades. How will dharma save them when it can't even save us?


This sounds like a defeatist attitude. How will this attitude help in overcoming the current challenges ? Why do some Hindus always look at half empty side and get demoralized instead of getting inspiration by looking at the half full side ? If not for dharma who do you think saved us for hundreds of years of Muslim followed by Christian colonization ? During the same period what do you think happened to our contemporary civilizations of Egypt, Persia, Greece, Rome, European Pagan's, Maya's, Inca's ? Where are their ancient cultures and their ancient Gods now ?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rony » 04 Jun 2020 09:03

ricky_v wrote:^^ I think hinduism as a whole should get not enmeshed in the virus of the west, otherwise it may travel backwards and the usage of swastika in india may be banned for being offensive to certain people. The west is too far removed now for any religion to help, in their 60 year defined worldview out of the 5000 of recorded history of mankind, they will attach labels of sexist, misogynist, homophobe to revered figures and demand answers and apologies from adherents. Individuals may do as they please, but imo only 1 matrix can clear the other, these people want comforting lies and remission of guilt, dharma cannot help them.


Religion is very much alive in the West, especially in America and especially among African-Americans and Latino's. Even Black leftists and social justice warriors unlike their White counterparts tend to be religious. There is scope for Hindu-Americans, Hindu missionary organizations and Hindu Gurus to take Dharma to these groups and to the Native Americans. Marginalized groups in America and elsewhere needs a Dharmic voice.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby sudarshan » 04 Jun 2020 10:27

Rony wrote:Religion is very much alive in the West, especially in America and especially among African-Americans and Latino's. Even Black leftists and social justice warriors unlike their White counterparts tend to be religious. There is scope for Hindu-Americans, Hindu missionary organizations and Hindu Gurus to take Dharma to these groups and to the Native Americans. Marginalized groups in America and elsewhere needs a Dharmic voice.


I've met some folks in massaland, one originally from an African country, one from a S. American one, both much interested in Hinduism, fed up with Churchism. The one unfortunately was going with Nityananda. The other was interested in a S. Indian ashram, all well and good, but said that whenever she went online to chat with Indians, learn more about Hinduism, the Indians usually started off good, but most often switched to showing her p***, and she'd leave feeling disgusted. Don't know if there are a lot of false flag operations going on. Wouldn't surprise me though.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Mort Walker » 04 Jun 2020 10:59

m_saini wrote:To be brutally honest, West doesn't need dharma or it's saving. They are doing just fine.

While we, with all our dharma in all it's glory, have a nation hell bent on flaming wars on our north-west and crazy religious fundamentalists on our west. And they have been here for decades. How will dharma save them when it can't even save us?


The west has put individualism ahead of dharma where it no longer recognizes right from wrong.
India has survived because of dharma or it would have been wiped out several hundreds of years ago.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rony » 04 Jun 2020 16:17

sudarshan wrote: I've met some folks in massaland, one originally from an African country, one from a S. American one, both much interested in Hinduism, fed up with Churchism. The one unfortunately was going with Nityananda. The other was interested in a S. Indian ashram, all well and good, but said that whenever she went online to chat with Indians, learn more about Hinduism, the Indians usually started off good, but most often switched to showing her p***, and she'd leave feeling disgusted. Don't know if there are a lot of false flag operations going on. Wouldn't surprise me though.


That could be the issue. Even if outsiders are interested in Dharma, we have less number of qualified and truly Dharmic Gurus/people who can encourage and facilitate their adoption. Temple priests who may be excellent in their priesthood may not be qualified enough for inter-religious engagements and conversions unlike say a padre or a maulvi who are very gung ho about these things. Gurus who may be excellent in giving Vedantic philosophical gyan can also be afflicted with "All religions are same" confusion. Our priests and gurus with some exceptions are very shy and afraid to even talk these topics. Then there are these fake gurus and swamis who abuse it for their own ends. So the issue is not "how will dharma save US or India" but do Hindu-Americans and Hindus in general have the inclination, perseverance, qualified and rooted people who can take Dharma to the voiceless and the marginalized and use it as a vehicle for their emancipation. That is how Dharma saved our ancestors for thousands of years. And that is what we need to strive to achieve now.
Last edited by Rony on 04 Jun 2020 17:45, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby m_saini » 04 Jun 2020 21:54

Rony wrote:This sounds like a defeatist attitude. How will this attitude help in overcoming the current challenges ? Why do some Hindus always look at half empty side and get demoralized instead of getting inspiration by looking at the half full side ? If not for dharma who do you think saved us for hundreds of years of Muslim followed by Christian colonization ? During the same period what do you think happened to our contemporary civilizations of Egypt, Persia, Greece, Rome, European Pagan's, Maya's, Inca's ? Where are their ancient cultures and their ancient Gods now ?


It might sound like defeatist attitude but i assure you, it's not. What I mean is when the west is doing better than us without dharma, why would they adopt it? Yes, it was dharma which saved us during all those years, but if we want to preach others to accept it, then we have to show that you can win with dharma too. Dharma is a thousand times better than those wiped out civilizations, but just surviving isn't enough. We have to win too.
Mort Walker wrote:The west has put individualism ahead of dharma where it no longer recognizes right from wrong.
India has survived because of dharma or it would have been wiped out several hundreds of years ago.


Even though they have put individualism ahead of dharma, they're still doing much better than us. And for dharma to have it's righteous place, we have to be able to win too instead of just surviving. Right now, based on ground realities, a neutral third party would have no trouble picking individualism over dharma.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby chetak » 04 Jun 2020 23:12

m_saini wrote:
Rony wrote:This sounds like a defeatist attitude. How will this attitude help in overcoming the current challenges ? Why do some Hindus always look at half empty side and get demoralized instead of getting inspiration by looking at the half full side ? If not for dharma who do you think saved us for hundreds of years of Muslim followed by Christian colonization ? During the same period what do you think happened to our contemporary civilizations of Egypt, Persia, Greece, Rome, European Pagan's, Maya's, Inca's ? Where are their ancient cultures and their ancient Gods now ?


It might sound like defeatist attitude but i assure you, it's not. What I mean is when the west is doing better than us without dharma, why would they adopt it? Yes, it was dharma which saved us during all those years, but if we want to preach others to accept it, then we have to show that you can win with dharma too. Dharma is a thousand times better than those wiped out civilizations, but just surviving isn't enough. We have to win too.
Mort Walker wrote:The west has put individualism ahead of dharma where it no longer recognizes right from wrong.
India has survived because of dharma or it would have been wiped out several hundreds of years ago.


Even though they have put individualism ahead of dharma, they're still doing much better than us. And for dharma to have it's righteous place, we have to be able to win too instead of just surviving. Right now, based on ground realities, a neutral third party would have no trouble picking individualism over dharma.


the west has no concept of dharma and so they have no use for it.

desert cults don't do dharma, they never have.

when the west think that individualism is the order of the day, they have established for themselves, especially the amerikis, the most successful, wealthy and aspirational middle class that the world has ever seen so far.

every migrant in search of the ameriki dream only wants to be rich and middle class.

as a consequence, the ameriki culture only sees the ameriki exceptionalism in everything, the international deals that they make, the many wars that they fight (and lose) for "democracy" and the foreign policy that they militarily enforce and the numerous regime changes that they coerce in an effort to mold countries in their greedy view of what markets they think serve them best and how to plunder the global wealth by skillful use of the ameriki soft power: a visa here, an ivy league college admission there, a well paying job elsewhere, works wonders with the traitorous babuz as they rapidly smooth over the paperwork.

until the amerikis came up against the hans who want the very same things that the amerikis want but don't bother to make nice or play fair in the deeply deceitful ways that the amerikis employ by presenting a heavily made up benign white face to show to the world while talking about democracy or liberty.

It hurts the amerikis that the chinese used the readily proffered ameriki ladder made available by short sighted snakes like nixon and his hired jewish gun kissinger who has worked like the manchurian candidate that he has always been.

Dharma is only justified when both the opposites have understood the dharmic concepts and imbibed it fully.

To use dharma when dealing with the rolers and the ropers or even the hans is plain foolish and inherently defeatest in its very conception as a tactic or strategy.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby m_saini » 05 Jun 2020 00:56

chetak wrote:To use dharma when dealing with the rolers and the ropers or even the hans is plain foolish and inherently defeatest in its very conception as a tactic or strategy.


I completely agree with the rest. On the last part, while I also agree that rolers and ropers don't deserve to be treated with dharma, then how do we win? Amerikis have their deceitful individualism that made them the sole superpower for decades while the hans have their own ruthless no-nonsense-sublte approach and they're on their way as well. So do we borrow their concepts to get where they are? If yes, then what right do we have to denigrate them like this? Or if not, then what other principle should we follow? because dharma isn't suited when others haven't understood and imbibed dharma, like you said.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby sudarshan » 05 Jun 2020 01:11

m_saini wrote:
chetak wrote:To use dharma when dealing with the rolers and the ropers or even the hans is plain foolish and inherently defeatest in its very conception as a tactic or strategy.


I completely agree with the rest. On the last part, while I also agree that rolers and ropers don't deserve to be treated with dharma, then how do we win? Amerikis have their deceitful individualism that made them the sole superpower for decades while the hans have their own ruthless no-nonsense-sublte approach and they're on their way as well. So do we borrow their concepts to get where they are? If yes, then what right do we have to denigrate them like this? Or if not, then what other principle should we follow? because dharma isn't suited when others haven't understood and imbibed dharma, like you said.


Gandhi-ism at work? When "dharma" gets interpreted as "playing nice and goody-goody all the time." Dharma includes knowing when and how to play hardball.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby chetak » 05 Jun 2020 01:13

sudarshan wrote:
m_saini wrote:
I completely agree with the rest. On the last part, while I also agree that rolers and ropers don't deserve to be treated with dharma, then how do we win? Amerikis have their deceitful individualism that made them the sole superpower for decades while the hans have their own ruthless no-nonsense-sublte approach and they're on their way as well. So do we borrow their concepts to get where they are? If yes, then what right do we have to denigrate them like this? Or if not, then what other principle should we follow? because dharma isn't suited when others haven't understood and imbibed dharma, like you said.


Gandhi-ism at work? When "dharma" gets interpreted as "playing nice and goody-goody all the time." Dharma includes knowing when and how to play hardball.


More Lord Krishna and less Lord Ram perhaps

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KJo » 05 Jun 2020 02:55

m_saini wrote:
chetak wrote:To use dharma when dealing with the rolers and the ropers or even the hans is plain foolish and inherently defeatest in its very conception as a tactic or strategy.


I completely agree with the rest. On the last part, while I also agree that rolers and ropers don't deserve to be treated with dharma, then how do we win? Amerikis have their deceitful individualism that made them the sole superpower for decades while the hans have their own ruthless no-nonsense-sublte approach and they're on their way as well. So do we borrow their concepts to get where they are? If yes, then what right do we have to denigrate them like this? Or if not, then what other principle should we follow? because dharma isn't suited when others haven't understood and imbibed dharma, like you said.


Good debate.
If dharma requires that both side agree on "ground rules" before a conflict then I must say that dharma is not a good approach and will always lose out. A truly good approach is one which handles all kinds of situations thrown at it, current or future. That is one of the advantage of ROP, there is always a loophole like Taqqiyya to enable it to grow like a weed even when you try to stamp the pesky thing out. I am not convinced yet that any of the approaches in front of us, dharmic of not, allow us to tackle ROP.

I don't understand why Hindus are stereotyped to be docile and non-violent especially when our gods and goddesses are all armed to the teeth! That should tell us that in order to protect ourselves, we must fight and not turn the other cheek. This must all be the mischief from the last 100 years.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby darshan » 05 Jun 2020 02:59

Not sure why they wrapped it up. Gandhi would not have liked it. And, should be left as vandalised with a board next to it in detail about riots.

USA riots: Mahatma Gandhi statue outside the Indian Embassy in Washington DC vandalised by rioters

The statue was inaugurated in 2000 in front of the Indian Embassy in Massachusetts Avenue. It is designed by artist Gautam Pal. Former PM Atal Bihari Vajpayee had inaugurated the statue in September 2000 in the presence of the then US President Bill Clinton.
https://www.opindia.com/2020/06/mahatma ... usa-riots/

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Mort Walker » 05 Jun 2020 04:26

m_saini wrote:Even though they have put individualism ahead of dharma, they're still doing much better than us. And for dharma to have it's righteous place, we have to be able to win too instead of just surviving. Right now, based on ground realities, a neutral third party would have no trouble picking individualism over dharma.


What is your definition of "they're still doing much better than us"?
And who would be a neutral 3rd party that would pick individualism over dharma?

Instead of calling a spade a spade, you're rationalizing adharama under the guise of individualism. What has brought western civilization to its current zenith is the scientific method. That scientific method for relying on evidence and facts was one of the supreme achievements of western civilization. The material wealth and power that stemmed from the codification of the scientific method is exactly why western civilization has been so successful over the last 500 years. However, individuals and governments have given way to vinaash kaale vipareet buddhi.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby m_saini » 05 Jun 2020 05:21

KJo wrote:Good debate.
If dharma requires that both side agree on "ground rules" before a conflict then I must say that dharma is not a good approach and will always lose out. A truly good approach is one which handles all kinds of situations thrown at it, current or future. That is one of the advantage of ROP, there is always a loophole like Taqqiyya to enable it to grow like a weed even when you try to stamp the pesky thing out. I am not convinced yet that any of the approaches in front of us, dharmic of not, allow us to tackle ROP.

I don't understand why Hindus are stereotyped to be docile and non-violent especially when our gods and goddesses are all armed to the teeth! That should tell us that in order to protect ourselves, we must fight and not turn the other cheek. This must all be the mischief from the last 100 years.


For the stereotype, i think we can safely thank gandhi and nehru for using perverted versions of our own scriptures and effectively neutering entire generations of hindus. Still wonder what it was about gandhi that allowed him to wield that kind of power over others, or why people like bose etc didn't have that level of effect.

Mort Walker wrote:What is your definition of "they're still doing much better than us"?
And who would be a neutral 3rd party that would pick individualism over dharma?

Instead of calling a spade a spade, you're rationalizing adharama under the guise of individualism. What has brought western civilization to its current zenith is the scientific method. That scientific method for relying on evidence and facts was one of the supreme achievements of western civilization. The material wealth and power that stemmed from the codification of the scientific method is exactly why western civilization has been so successful over the last 500 years. However, individuals and governments have given way to vinaash kaale vipareet buddhi.


I don't think it was the scientific method that brought their achievements. It was slavery for americans and colonization for the europeans. The westerners didn't discover the "scientific method for relying on facts and evidence", they merely exploited it. For that yeah, full marks to them. And I don't think there is a western civilization either; there is an american civilization and the europeans merely exist inside that. If the chinese were to dominate asia like the americans dominate europe, then we'll see the mentions of an eastern civilization as well.

And they are ahead of us in pretty much every metric so much so that we have to depend on the weapons of the same adharmics to save ourselves from the chinks. And a neutral third party would be any hypothetical newly found nation that is looking for direction. There is a reason why so many people are choosing a bag of rice over dharma. dharma isn't much use when you haven't had anything to eat in the last week.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby sudarshan » 05 Jun 2020 06:13

m_saini wrote:...


Dude, don't get this thread locked. If you want to continue this discussion, try some other thread. There's a couple which may fit.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby m_saini » 05 Jun 2020 06:19

sudarshan wrote:
m_saini wrote:...


Dude, don't get this thread locked. If you want to continue this discussion, try some other thread. There's a couple which may fit.

sorry, i got carried away. I wont derail the thread any further.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby sudarshan » 05 Jun 2020 06:27

^ It's an interesting discussion, but better off in some other thread. You don't have to apologize to me, I'm not a mod, just trying to keep the mods from stepping in. If you continue in another thread, I might even join in :).

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Mort Walker » 05 Jun 2020 06:36

m_saini,

I would suggest you read up on the history of science of the last 500 years and see how it is tied to the advancement of western civilization. The US is an inheritor of European civilization. If you see no use of the concept of dharama and adharama, then let's just call it a day and move on.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Rony » 07 Jun 2020 06:13

An Analysis of “RW” Hindu Reactions to Hindu Solidarity with American Race Struggles

It seems to me that there are three kinds of responses emerging from Indians in America. People who identify as “South Asian” or “Desi” (rather than Hindu American) are understandably at the frontlines of condemning racism, showing solidarity with the Black community, and also connecting American racism with casteism and colorism in our own community. The second response comes from some people who identify as Hindus openly but also share a sense of pain and outrage about anti-black racism. The Hindu Students Council (HSC) for example, was very clear in putting out a touching shraddanjali message to George Floyd and also including a picture of a tilak-sporting protestor standing for black lives. Other scholars and activists at the forefront of anti-Hinduphobia work also spoke out in strong support of black solidarity.

The third sort of response is what I wish to analyze in some depth today. This sort of response also comes from people who identify openly and boldly as Hindus (although they often use the term “RW” or “Nationalist” interchangeably too), and is a somewhat troubling one. This group of Hindus seems to believe that the concerns of the first two groups described above are unilaterally incorrect. Their beliefs range from what would be universally condemned as anti-black racism to a more complicated sort of bargaining (often with their own selves and in their own heads) with the black community about what they would give Hindus in exchange for Hindu “support” for them.

There are, in my view, two major biases in the way RW identifying Hindus are talking about racism in America. The first bias has to do with the nature of social media as form of communication. People have a tendency to respond quickly and often unthinkingly, leaving a trail of what might even be professionally punishable offenses against their own selves. That is however a wider problem.

The more relevant sort of bias or limitation one can notice in these strange, grudging sort of comments about blacks from some “RW” Hindus is a total inability to think or speak of issues outside of what might be called tribalistic calculations. They do not, for example, care to engage with the issue of whether what happened to George Floyd was a frightening injustice or not (regardless of how much of the protests or riots one wishes to condone).

That is the most troubling omission. How does someone leap away from the sight of a man being choked under a knee in full public view (like many others before) and start a negotiation about what Hindus must be given by Blacks for a drop of sympathy? This sort of evasion is so bizarre frankly it seems like every RW online warrior is suddenly in active negotiation with the Black Panthers for Hindu welfare, or on a taping of a reality show based on President Trump’s book The Art of the Deal or something.

I am not sure if this narcissistic disconnect from social reality too is part of the bias inherent with social media, or if it’s just a routine expression of the way in which they have come to think about Hindu life and politics, as sheer tribalism with no interest in some core notion of truth.

I understand of course that my criticism might lead to my position being seen as the more “unrealistic” one, a liberal or radical one (I can almost hear Supertramp’s The Logical Song in my head now). After all, don’t the Democrats show again and again that they prefer to advance Pakistani interests and not Indian ones? What about Bernie’s comments on Kashmir, and Ro Khanna, and all the rest? Is it not foolish for Hindus to “support” anyone but Trump ?

I understand. But the point is we are not having a debate on who to vote for. The debate is only about the appropriateness of Hindus in America seeing what is happening and offering even if only in thoughts and spirit, a moment of understanding and love for those who are facing a tougher reality than most of us. If Hindus cannot do that, and feel obliged to enter into imaginary deal-making for “support” then there is something really awry in our thinking.

I say this though without being judgmental. I have written so much about the ignorance of those who have sought to deny us our truth that sometimes it is necessary to understand where our own limitations come from. I think that many of the callous “deal ya no deal” comments are coming from Hindus who have very little exposure or understanding of our position in America; either Hindus who are not in the US but assume they know the world thanks to the internet, or Hindus who have been in the US but have lived and worked almost entirely in little Indian bubbles.

Again, I say this without judgment but only as a sociological observation. Without a certain degree of privilege, of cultural capital and social capital, one tends to find one’s self as an immigrant in small pools of familiarity, without the real life experience and intellectual training to really pay attention to the lives of people outside those bubbles. And this tribalism, of course, is also amplified by the tribalistic nature of social media noise-making. So we have the RW Hindu community’s position on race at this time going something like: there is Right Wing and Left Wing. There is White and Black. There is Hindu and Muslim. We are in Team Trump. Others are in Team Muslim. Go Right Wing.

It is tempting to dismiss all this as a caricature for Hari Kondabolu or Hasan Minhaj to write scripts with (and believe me they will), but the looming reality that the tribal RW Hindus don’t perhaps see is that regardless of whether they support President Trump or the “Leftists,” they have strayed into a land of zero tolerance to racism with their ignorance and callous indifference to the pain of Black America. Even President Trump, their hero, did not deny or dismiss the reality of what had happened to George Floyd and announced an investigation very quickly. He may get called a racist and worse, and he may tweet and say and do a lot of things that get his critics justification to call him so. But even he did not violate the norms of what is considered the bottom line on acknowledging racism in this country (and what is considered acceptable dissent from “LW” drama), the way his RW Hindu fans have.

These nuances though are of course lost on many in the internet Hindu RW community, though perhaps it does not see itself as worse for its loss in any way. We support Modi and Trump and they protect us back, is perhaps how they see the whole thing. And why should we risk our jobs and lives by taking the side of the blacks against the whites (see the quote below on how Indians should be loyal to Whites). We are here to improve our lives and we must work hard and follow the rules and send our children to good colleges and keep them out of trouble….

I outline this reasonable-sounding American Daydream of the immigrant because the last point I wish to discuss here has to do with the children of these RW Hindu immigrant parents. I was moved by a very poignant message a parent posted urging other parents to tell their children to stay out of getting involved with protests. There was so much fear in that comment, and I understand where it comes from. The sense of anxiety you have in a new land, the sense of anxiety you may have about what you had to leave from, coupled with a sense of duty about those for whom you do it all,
work hard, suffer the racist slights you do know come at you…

As an educator I felt so sad about the fact that Hindu parents in America don’t seem to realize that the “protest” and “antiracism” activities they think they should keep their children away from are actually coming from the very same establishment they are goading their children to climb into with their achievements, their SATs, spelling bees, service CVs, Ivy League admissions and all. Hindu parents don’t seem to be aware that often it is their children’s own schools, in whatever high mortgage posh school district they have bought and slogged into, that is taking their children out on the streets to shout “No justice no peace!” or maybe even “Impeach!”

More privileged or smarter parents with the cultural capital and savvy know it and don’t get alarmed about it. But the rest, they spend half their lives pushing their children into the very “Leftist” world they rant about and condemn the other half of their lives. That is the world of the jobs, careers, the world of the mainstream where anti-racism is more respectable than racism (and some of those jobs may well be from employers willing to pay well for fighting Islamophobia, racism and so on, unlike the Hindu Americans who ain’t got no jobs for anyone to fight Hinduphobia). They don’t see it.

And when their children see that the mainstream world into which they are educated and eventually employed and rewarded defines their parents’ views and opinions about race, class, American politics and such as somehow being a result of their Hinduism, guess which direction their lives will eventually head in as far as being Hindu is concerned ?

Anti-Hinduphobia is a lifelong project, and a multigenerational one. It is not solved by attending one Howdy Modi circus and then coming back thinking ‘we have made a deal with great white chief’ so all izz well. The deals of the online RW Hindu Nationalist are mostly all in their own minds, but the consequences of those deals are of course seeping out into the real lives of their own children, families, and the Hindu community as a whole.

To sum up, we have to recognize, whether “Blacks will support us” or not, that we have to support truth in each moment we live, each word we write, and each lesson we teach our children. You cannot be a good example of a Hinduism your children will think is worth fighting a thousand battles for if you are killing truth itself, and all the love this world and its people need from us too. If Hindus cannot find that love then we must really look to our gods and gurus again to relearn it and to spread it where we are. The point is not just whether you agree with “Black Lives Matter” or not (of course they do) and whether “they” will say “Hindu Lives Matter” (of course they won’t because you have not done the work at all to ensure it and no one even knows about it).

The point is only one thing now for you and for the world today.

Hindu Love Matters.

schinnas
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby schinnas » 07 Jun 2020 14:45

Hindus are NOT right wing. The very definition of Hindu is progressive. BJP supporters would do well to recognise that the word Hindu nationalist as understood by Western media is that of a regressive and ultra conservative one. They can do either two things - 1. educate the rest of the world that nationalism in India represents freedom struggle against colonialism, imperialism and associated racism and should be equalled with civil rights movement in the US.

OR
2. Change their vocabulary and rebrand themselves as progressive, inclusive equalising force that stands for rights of natives and native cultures all over the world. This would resonate with all the genuine liberals all over the world and ensure that genuine liberals and progressives world over are not hoodwinked into supporting EJs, Jihadis and Urban Naxals in India.

vishvak
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby vishvak » 07 Jun 2020 15:22

+1 wonder how selective exclusive ideologies are running their racketeering in India while fellow dharmic cannot even express vocabulary.

In any case methinks that ram krishna also bajarangbali for fellow dharmiks only. For the rest there must be chanakya niti full-time.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby anmol » 07 Jun 2020 15:56

schinnas wrote:Hindus are NOT right wing. The very definition of Hindu is progressive. BJP supporters would do well to recognise that the word Hindu nationalist as understood by Western media is that of a regressive and ultra conservative one. They can do either two things - 1. educate the rest of the world that nationalism in India represents freedom struggle against colonialism, imperialism and associated racism and should be equalled with civil rights movement in the US.

OR
2. Change their vocabulary and rebrand themselves as progressive, inclusive equalising force that stands for rights of natives and native cultures all over the world. This would resonate with all the genuine liberals all over the world and ensure that genuine liberals and progressives world over are not hoodwinked into supporting EJs, Jihadis and Urban Naxals in India.


I don't know who are these "Genuine liberals", but the non Krazee ones are TINY minority at this point.

Jihadis, Urban Naxals/Antifa, "Pronoun People" and other Krazees are in, likes of Tulsi Gabbard are out.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Pratyush » 07 Jun 2020 19:21

At this moment in time, US is in the middle of a mostly peaceful cultural civil war.

The coming election will decide the future trajectory of the US. If Trump looses US is going the way of Maoist cultural revolution, with conservative and centrist getting purged.

If Trump wins the domestic strife will turn into a leftist insurgency making governence impossible, with overt support of the urban naxal party of America.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby KL Dubey » 07 Jun 2020 22:24

^^Assuming the economy continues strong recovery (very encouraging unemployment numbers last week) Trump is coming back.

The masses you see in the urban protests are not remotely any people who might have voted for Trump, so it is not as if he will lose votes. Among the majority whites there will likely be a silent but strong backlash against the gadha dal and the protest/looter mentality. And sleepy-farty joe has shown zero leadership of any kind during these times.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby vijayk » 08 Jun 2020 01:01

All the scums want to turn US into Somalia. They already succeeded in Minneapolis and Seattle.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby vera_k » 08 Jun 2020 02:36

schinnas wrote:This would resonate with all the genuine liberals all over the world


However, for a genuine liberal in the USA -
1. It is normal that police carry guns
2. Normal that police have access to military style weapons
3. Normal for police to murder, plant evidence and cover it up
4. A mass shooting or two is expected every day

This is then the lens that they view other countries including India. US liberal concern over police action and political rights in India makes sense once you understand the framework they start with.

One appropriate reaction from Indian political entities at this time would be to pass resolutions asking for repealing the 2nd Amendment to the US constitution.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 09 Jun 2020 04:40

saip wrote:Then he will say Modi is his best friend but goes to make fun of his accent.


When did Trump make fun of Modi's accent? :shock:

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Vayutuvan » 09 Jun 2020 04:58

Mort Walker wrote:Darshanji,

It is too bad some of the oldies like Ulanbatori are not here who know this history well and can show you the entire time line. The Dems in the 1990s were hoping for the Balkanization of India and were working hand in glove with the Chinese and Islamists towards this goal. It is also this decade where technology transfer to the Chinese was the greatest. Everything from missile guidance , rocket propulsion, W88 warhead design, and aerospace development.


I want to add this small piece about Loral.

@Darshan ji please note.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loral_Space_%26_Communications

On March 20, 1998, Loral completed the acquisition of Orion Network Systems, Inc., through the exchange of common stock. The transaction was valued at approximately $479 million.[2]

In January 2002, Loral reached a settlement with the U.S. Government in a case relating to the company’s involvement in the disclosure of information during a review of a Chinese rocket launch failure in 1996.[3] Loral agreed to pay a civil fine of $14 million to the State Department without admitting or denying the government’s charges.[4] According to a House Select Committee, Loral under CEO Schwartz provided the Chinese government with advice regarding a guidance system for future PRC road-mobile intercontinental ballistic missiles.[5] The Defense Technology Security Administration concluded Loral "committed a serious export control violation" and that the "significant benefits derived by China from these activities are likely to lead to improvements in the overall reliability of their launch vehicles [i.e., rockets] and ballistic missiles and in particular their guidance systems." [6] Loral paid a total fine of $20 million, the largest that a company has ever paid under the Arms Export Control Act.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby NRao » 10 Jun 2020 07:12

Here you go. Just when one thought things could get stale, .....

The fight to be Trump's political heir is on

Tom Cotton:
Josh Hawley:

No brownie points category:

Mike Pence:
Donald Trump Jr./Ivanka Trump:

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby chetak » 10 Jun 2020 22:40

New York Police Union Head To Media: “Stop Treating Us Like Animals And Thugs, Start Treating Us With Some Respect” https://swarajyamag.com/insta/new-york-police-union-head-to-media-stop-treating-us-like-animals-and-thugs-start-treating-us-with-some-respect via @swarajyamag

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby mappunni » 13 Jun 2020 10:32

STRENGTHENING AMERICA & THE RSC NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY COUNTERING GLOBAL THREATS

https://rsc-johnson.house.gov/sites/republicanstudycommittee.house.gov/files/%5BFINAL%5D%20NSTF%20Report.pdf

Some nuggets from the long document. Interesting read!

The Trump administration has worked to strengthen our alliances in the Indo-Pacific as an essential aspect of the National Defense Strategy. This is probably best illustrated by the administration’s reactivation of the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue (or “the Quad”) among the United States, Japan, India, and Australia during the 2017 ASEAN summit after an eight-year hiatus. The Quad, which shares common values of liberal democracy and open markets, has been an important development for the security architecture of the Indo-Pacific. The Department of State has defined the Quad’s main mission as upholding rules-based order in the Indo-Pacific, including freedom of navigation and overflight.177 As The Heritage Foundation has
noted, “the most important thing that unites the Quad countries, however, is an awareness that managing the rise of China is the defining challenge of our era.

Future free trade agreements with Japan, the Philippines, and India would be welcome developments. Yet, more can be done, particularly through concluding bilateral free trade agreements with other partners in the region.

Congress should encourage the Trump administration to explore expanded trade with India and enact the United States-India Enhanced Cooperation Act to reduce restrictions on arms sales to India.

The Trump administration has made India a cornerstone of its Indo-Pacific strategy. India is the largest democracy in the world and has taken small but important steps towards market liberalization in recent years. India has also consistently stood up to China, including through challenging its influence on the South China Sea, and has worked closely with the United States to fight Salafi-jihadi terrorists in Southeast Asia.

The Task Force believes that expanding trade with India is in the United States’ national security interest. Ken Juster, the U.S. Ambassador to Israel, noted in January 2018 that “a strategic view of our economic relationship could eventually lead to a roadmap for a U.S.-India Free Trade agreement.”192 As Raymond Vickery of CSIS has noted, the case for a free trade agreement with India is both economic and strategic, as the U.S. economy is the second-largest in the world on a purchasing power basis, while India ranks third.193 While India is not yet ready for a free trade agreement, President Trump has stated his willingness to strike a deal to ease some tariffs with India. However, negotiations during the president’s visit to India in February 2020 failed to achieve a deal.194

Furthermore, the Task Force endorses legislation introduced by Task Force Chairman Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC), the U.S.-India Enhanced Cooperation Act, which would designate India as a Major Defense Partner to strengthen our alliance and enhance our security cooperation with India. This would grant India a status similar to that of U.S. allies, such as Australia and Japan, making it easier for the United States to export defense articles to India.195

Nevertheless, the Task Force believes both increased economic and security cooperation with India should be conditioned on significant improvements in the human rights situation and economic freedom. In recent years, India has seen a sharp uptick of attacks on religious minorities, especially Christians and Muslims. The Department of State’s 2019 Human Rights Report on India notes that the government “had detained thousands of residents” in Kashmir.196 Open Doors USA, a watchdog organization for the persecution of Christians, has found that India is the 10th most dangerous country on earth to practice Christianity.

President Trump noted in an August 2018 address that the “next pillar” of the United States’ new strategy on Afghanistan is changing our approach to dealing with Pakistan. He said, “We can no longer be silent about Pakistan’s safe havens for terrorist organizations, the Taliban, and other groups that pose a threat to the region and beyond.”484 President Trump followed up with action and cut $300 million in aid to Pakistan in 2018.485 Yet,
despite these early steps, more needs to be done.

Pakistan has had a long-term relationship with the Taliban, the Haqqani Network, and other terrorist groups connected to Al Qaeda. As Bill Roggio of FDD has testified before Congress, “we can list dozens or scores of groups that Pakistan supports in India, in Afghanistan, groups that are designated terrorist organizations, groups that provide aid and support for Al Qaeda.”486 The Taliban continues to work closely with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan, even supplying the terrorist group with explosives and other weaponry.487 Al Qaeda has even openly praised the Taliban and called upon Afghans to support and join the group.488

There can be no political solution to Afghanistan that defeats the Salafi-jihadi movement without stopping Pakistan’s continued support for the Taliban. The Task Force supports Hussain Haqqani and Lisa Curtis’s recommendation that the United States cut security and economic assistance to Pakistan until it upholds its commitments to stop support for the Taliban and Haqqani Network. It should also consider sanctioning senior officials in the Pakistani defense and intelligence apparatus if they continue to support terrorism and efforts to destabilize Afghanistan. The United States
should also examine whether or not Pakistan meets the definition to be a State Sponsor of Terrorism.4


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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby darshan » 24 Jun 2020 18:40

Sikh-owned restaurant vandalized by white supremacist group in the US, walls covered with racist and anti-ISIS graffiti
https://www.opindia.com/2020/06/sikh-ow ... -graffiti/
A Sikh-owned restaurant named ‘Indian Palace’ in Santa Fe city, in New Mexico state of the US, was vandalized on Monday allegedly by a white supremacist group. Restaurant owner Baljit Singh said that they had suffered damages worth $100,000 (Rs.75.6 lakh). Vandals left slogans like “white power,” “Trump 2020”, “F**K ISIS,” and “go home” on the walls. The reports say that local police and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) are investigating the case.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby Avtar Singh » 24 Jun 2020 23:03

^^^^^^

what is the betting that all these so-called "white supremacist"/"right wing" attacks are all
perpetrated by commies/naxals/urban naxals/red menace???

CUI BONO?

so many people at this time would benefit from causing a schism between white americans
and Indians of all variety

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby darshan » 24 Jun 2020 23:07

Need to wait for the investigation details but it's certainly possible. If I'm correct, more non muslim browns have been killed since 9/11 than actual Arabs.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

Postby darshan » 24 Jun 2020 23:23

US Secretary of State lists Jio as a “Clean Telco” for not using Chinese tech, something Mukesh Ambani had told Trump in February
https://www.opindia.com/2020/06/us-secr ... -february/
Amid the rising global demand to ban Chinese technology companies from participating in 5G networks, the United States Secretary of State Mike Pompeo have listed few “Clean Telcos” not using Chinese firms in their networks, including the Jio Network in India. In a tweet posted today, Pompeo said, “The tide is turning toward trusted 5G vendors and away from Huawei. The world’s leading telecom companies—Telefonica, Orange, Jio, Telstra, and many more—are becoming “Clean Telcos.” They are rejecting doing business with tools of the CCP surveillance state, like Huawei.”


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