Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Manish_Sharma » 11 Jul 2017 23:52

Self deleted
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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby sunnyP » 12 Jul 2017 00:04

Karthik S wrote:There's confusion regarding the bus driver, many say it's salim and he is a hero for taking measures to save lives; some say the name is Harish. Really need to investigate, regardless of the name, if the driver didn't follow protocols, he should be tried for negligence leading to loss of lives.



Harsh was the bus company owner's son.

http://www.abplive.in/india-news/viral- ... sai-550698

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby abhik » 12 Jul 2017 00:05

All major decisions are taken at PM and cabinet level. Kadi Ninda is only in charge day to day affairs, with much assistance from the NSA. Unless there is a decision made at the very top to change the status quo (i.e do nothing) there is little he can do.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby pankajs » 12 Jul 2017 00:14

In this tragic moment, GOI's first priority is to maintain law and order in the country and not pour ghee on fire. So Kadi ninda and Kashmiriyat as the first response is to be expected especially from the Home minister and the PM [If he chooses to speak on the subject].

The next step however is to hunt down the perpetrators followed by the facilitators within Kashmir and finally the fight has to be taken to the source of this menace.
Last edited by pankajs on 12 Jul 2017 00:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack

Postby Manish_Sharma » 12 Jul 2017 00:18

Amber G. wrote:
As I said before, No comments about "Allahoakbar" (except IMO it is sort distraction) but I think title must
have "Pakistani supported Jihadi and "Hindu pilgrims" in the title.


Please ! For one person's distraction entire thread title can't be changed. You may think you are special royalty but we don't care. I m sure whole Mavericks blog would be upset with this.

Pakistan is Islamic state of Pakistan. The Qila of Islam. Title by Shiv ji hits the core.

I am sure both hillary and burka would also find it a distraction.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby JE Menon » 12 Jul 2017 00:47

People, I see a lot of comments about the MHA... Please note first what Ramana has said earlier in this thread. Let's not be the snake swallowing it's own tail...while there are rats aplenty.

It is good that the title has been replaced to the original.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby ramana » 12 Jul 2017 00:51

SBajwa wrote:Snahata!! What happened 3 years ago ?



Modiji was elected.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Garooda » 12 Jul 2017 00:51

abhik wrote:
Marten wrote:They have finally crossed the Rubicon. No mercy for any of these pigs and their masters who are attacking innocent yatris. I hope we turn Skardu HQ to rubble.

There have been many outrages before and there will be many more to come. After all these years I have come to the conclusion that it's better to keep quite than express impotent rage.
Agree. Kuch nahi hone wala. A week or two and it will be all quiet IMO.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby ramana » 12 Jul 2017 00:55

Manish, Read Pankajs post above.

At least on this Forum we should show some sangfroid or equanimity.

I can assure you that may be the image but RNS is not like that.


And folks we had enough outrage on thread title.
One warning already issued lets not become our own drive by shooting victims.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby ramana » 12 Jul 2017 00:56

Marten et al,
Just to indulge me what are ten things you want to do that will give India upper hand in J&K?

We can then rank them and see how implementable they are.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Shankas » 12 Jul 2017 01:14

ramana wrote:Marten et al,
Just to indulge me what are ten things you want to do that will give India upper hand in J&K?

We can then rank them and see how implementable they are.

1) Allocate 3~5 acre plot in Kashmir to every retired soldier.
2) Land + 10 year tax holiday to Indian manufacturing company with 100+ cr turnover setting up a manufacturing facility in Kashmir
3) All Kashmiris in Govt. jobs be transferred to South and West India. All new jobs will be allotted in West and South India
4) Criminals caught in Kashmir will be immediately moved/lodged in other states far away
5) Stone Pelters will be sent to 6-month govt. run institutions that will teach them secularism, Yoga, etc.
6) Subsidy and handouts will be suspended for 2 years to Stone Pelters family
7) .....

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby IndraD » 12 Jul 2017 01:22

Bus driver who drove through bullets to get Rs 5 Lak reward, he is also being show cased around as example of Ganga Jamna Tehjib/Kashmiriyat etc http://www.news18.com/news/india/rs-5-l ... 58361.html

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby IndraD » 12 Jul 2017 01:30

Shuchi Singh Kalra editor of make my trip likely to lose job after she tweets to R N Singh re Amarnath :
HM responded and customers outraged, threatening to stop using make my trip.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/comp ... 547165.cms

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Garooda » 12 Jul 2017 01:33

IndraD wrote:Shuchi Singh Kalra editor of make my trip likely to lose job after she tweets to R N Singh re Amarnath :
HM responded and customers outraged, threatening to stop using make my trip.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/comp ... 547165.cms
Koi baat nahi. Use social media to support Suchi Singh Kalra and promote the boycott of make my trip if that happens. See how quickly they will possibly re-hire or quietly promote her (if she is fired).
Last edited by Garooda on 12 Jul 2017 01:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Garooda » 12 Jul 2017 01:36

Shankas wrote:
ramana wrote:Marten et al,
Just to indulge me what are ten things you want to do that will give India upper hand in J&K?

We can then rank them and see how implementable they are.

1) Allocate 3~5 acre plot in Kashmir to every retired soldier.
2) Land + 10 year tax holiday to Indian manufacturing company with 100+ cr turnover setting up a manufacturing facility in Kashmir
3) All Kashmiris in Govt. jobs be transferred to South and West India. All new jobs will be allotted in West and South India
4) Criminals caught in Kashmir will be immediately moved/lodged in other states far away
5) Stone Pelters will be sent to 6-month govt. run institutions that will teach them secularism, Yoga, etc.
6) Subsidy and handouts will be suspended for 2 years to Stone Pelters family
7) .....

7) Intelligence Apparatus needs improved.
8 ) Layered security structure (uniformed and plain clothes security).
9) Compartmentalized police commands (A lot of info leaks from them).
10) Monitor social networks and websites of known or potential person of interest or groups.
11) Behavioral profiling based on fanaticism and social media data harvesting (any and all data available) including security and military personnel. There is no real privacy either way. Everything cost something. If safety and security costs a bit of privacy then so be it.
12) Follow the money.
13) Follow the local underground economy.
14) Metal cuts metal. Use potential, half ass, closet jihadists or troublemakers to find missing links.
.
.
Last edited by Garooda on 12 Jul 2017 01:42, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Amoghvarsha » 12 Jul 2017 01:38

Not one foreign media outlet has called this a terror attack.Gunmen attack to militant attack.Plus they have twisted it into Bus being caught in crossfire.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 12 Jul 2017 01:41

nirav wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:Nirav,

When you were in arguments on other threads I thought perhaps you are being picked on. But I have to say I am really perplexed by your actions on this thread. This is so doodh ka doodh and pani ka pani that I have to question your motives. Maybe there is some truth in what other posters say re your motives.


Dear AK sir,

I have not seen this kind of seeking attention of dhimmis.
Seeing AoA on a topic which talks about slaughter of own own made my blood boil, hence I requested Shiv sir to take it down.

Dhimmis do not read BR.
They read NDTV and scroll.

But yes, I am not going to defend any and every thing I say.
Hence I requested Ramana sir to Perma ban me.

It might be okay for self proclaimed Desh bhakts to call the forces import pasand at the drop of the hat or call anyone who they disagree with,a Paki.

I'm sick of it.It nauseates me. Aisi Desh bhakti aap sabko Mubarak.

Htt 40s exhaust will melt it's tyres. Adarniya aerospace diggaj Indranil.
Excel pe 6 tons to GTO - non sense diggaj Vina.

I don't like you Nirav - will bait you and call you paki,diggaj Karan M.

Point out LCAs shortcomings, - Indranil says import pasand lobby.

Forum says we are "ahead of the curve". :roll:

Congratulations to everyone.
Solid raksha kar rahe ho aap sab Bharat Desh ki.
I can't do this type of raksha.

OnO.
Jai Hind.


Yes you have had a rough and perhaps unfair time on some of the above. But on this one I was perplexed. Enough said. Back on topic.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby IndraD » 12 Jul 2017 01:43

16. Time to end BJP-PDP alliance. PDP is at heart of trouble how can BJP fight terrorism with an alliance like this in Kashmir.
President's rule.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Rudradev » 12 Jul 2017 01:47

If we are done with the emotional responses we need to figure out exactly why this was done, why now.

I think we can categorize terrorist operations in J&K under four headings:

1) Attacks on security forces/symbols of national power. Under which we have

1a) Attacks on military installations or units. Including beheading of army jawans by BATs, IED attacks on military convoys/bases etc. Usually happen far from major settlements and in the wilderness or remote areas. The targets are primarily the Indian nation's instruments of exercising central govt writ and sovereignty w.r.t. J&K.

1b) Attacks on police forces like CRPF, state police, RR, and symbols like govt offices/election polling places etc. in settled areas. The target is the credibility of both central and state govts.in maintaining law and order in towns/cities. "Stone pelting" should be recognized as an extension of such attacks.

To some extent the "audience" for both of 1a and 1b types of attacks is light-green and/or fence-sitting KMs... perhaps some other Ms in other parts of India... to demonstrate that Indian govt control over J&K is slipping, so join the movement... AoA, ek-dhakka-aur, etc.

2) Attacks specifically designed to provoke deep emotional outrage and public fear. Under which we have

2a) Attacks on civilians connected to symbols of state power. For example, Kaluchak massacre, where wives and children of army officers were murdered. Another attack within the last year against an officer's mess in J&K (where many civilian family members were present) was thwarted recently, IIRC. The kidnapping of Mufti Mohammed Saeed's daughter in 1989 was an archetype of this (showing that "see, no one is safe, we can pick up anyone no matter how "connected" they are"). Also, kidnapping/murder of tourists, who are supposedly guests under the protection of Indian law, would fall under this category. IC814 (hijacking an Indian airliner and murdering various passengers, including Rupin Katyal) would also fall under this category.

2b) Attacks on civilians for reasons of communal genocide, mainly to achieve Islamist ethnic cleansing. The archetype of this would be the terrorism that sparked the Pundit exodus during 1989-90. During 1990s and early 2000s many Hindus who stayed behind in rural Kashmir were murdered by LeT in horrific ways (mutilation, throat cutting etc.) Chittisinghpora massacre of 36 Sikhs by LeT was a variation on the standard Type 2b attack where the ISI not only butchered kafir Sikhs, but also sought to convince the US (via a false flag operation) that Indian security forces were behind it.

In the latest (2014+) phase of Kashmir violence we have seen almost no Type 2b attacks. Part of this may be due to the relative paucity of non-Muslim targets in the valley, most having already migrated out of there. Part of it is the Hurriyat's desire to divorce the Kashmir insurgency from the overtly Islamist color it had taken on in the 1990s and 2000s (because after 9/11, association with Islamist causes is less easy for foreign governments to support).

Amarnath Yatra pilgrims are the first instance of a Type 2b attack since Modi became PM. This gives rise to two questions:

Q1) Was conducting this attack the first choice of Kashmiri separatists and ISI? Or is it an instance of Kashmiri separatists and ISI being forced (by grinding attrition as a result of Indian anti-terrorist offensives, increased cross-border pressure by IA on the Pakis, and dwindling international support for the Pakis) to undertake a course of action that they did not prefer, i.e. the desperate "lashing out" of a wounded animal?

Q2) Who were the intended audience or audiences of this attack? And what is the message being sent? Is it any different from the same old message (all Kafirs must die) which, since 1990, has never deterred the Indian state from determinedly holding its ground and relentlessly destroying jihadis in Kashmir? Or is there something new here? Some specific unwise move that they desperately want to provoke either the GOI, or the J&K government, or the BJP, or the general Indian public to make at this time?

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby A_Gupta » 12 Jul 2017 01:55

Rudradev wrote: Chittisinghpora massacre of 36 Sikhs by LeT was a variation on the standard Type 2b attack where the ISI not only butchered kafir Sikhs, but also sought to convince the US (via a false flag operation) that Indian security forces were behind it.


With the help of journalist/writer Pankaj Mishra.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2000/09 ... n-kashmir/

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby A_Gupta » 12 Jul 2017 01:58

Rudradev wrote: Some specific unwise move that they desperately want to provoke either the GOI, or the J&K government, or the BJP, or the general Indian public to make at this time?


IMO, their goal is to provoke the general Indian public into communal rioting.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 12 Jul 2017 01:59

Garooda wrote:
Shankas wrote:1) Allocate 3~5 acre plot in Kashmir to every retired soldier.
2) Land + 10 year tax holiday to Indian manufacturing company with 100+ cr turnover setting up a manufacturing facility in Kashmir
3) All Kashmiris in Govt. jobs be transferred to South and West India. All new jobs will be allotted in West and South India
4) Criminals caught in Kashmir will be immediately moved/lodged in other states far away
5) Stone Pelters will be sent to 6-month govt. run institutions that will teach them secularism, Yoga, etc.
6) Subsidy and handouts will be suspended for 2 years to Stone Pelters family
7) .....

8 ) Intelligence Apparatus needs improved.
9) Layered security structure (uniformed and plain clothes security).
10) Compartmentalized police commands (A lot of info leaks from them).
11) Monitor social networks and websites of known or potential person of interest or groups.
12) Behavioral profiling based on fanaticism and social media data harvesting (any and all data available) including security and military personnel.
13) Follow the money.
14) Follow the local underground economy.
15) Metal cuts metal. Use potential, half ass, closet jihadists or troublemakers to find missing links.
.
.


In addition to the above


1. Resettle people from Punjab, Haryana and North East and Bihar in Kashmir and immediately abolish Article 370
2. There have been cases where truckloads of Punjabis have wanted to go to the valley to avenge massacres of Sikhs. RR had to stop them. Must not do this again. Let people to people sort this out.
3. Let adivasis and others who wnat to take on stone pelters with their gulails and other means do that. If people of India want to contribute to national security why stop them ?
4. Use Ikhwans again. Some of them were quite useful
5. Hit Pak across LC hard...officers must be killed after every incident....don't respect the LC, let it be completely fluid.
6. Raise a covert and deniable force that will kill and subvert anti national MLAS and ministers. Pick some of their children up covertly and threaten them. Kill them if necessary. Do the same to judiciary including in Supreme Court so that law does not come in the way
7. Jam phone signals in the valley..whatsapp groups are the worst
8. Find a way of destroying the credibility of hurriyat leaders ...kill them and stage it such that a male lover killed him for money, or he was on drugs or something. We need to wage a propoganda war
9. Use weapons against stone pelters.....if you are helping terrorist you are a terrorist. Pick up thier leaders quietely and kill them.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 12 Jul 2017 02:12

Rudradev wrote:If we are done with the emotional responses we need to figure out exactly why this was done, why now.


Q2) Who were the intended audience or audiences of this attack? And what is the message being sent? Is it any different from the same old message (all Kafirs must die) which, since 1990, has never deterred the Indian state from determinedly holding its ground and relentlessly destroying jihadis in Kashmir? Or is there something new here? Some specific unwise move that they desperately want to provoke either the GOI, or the J&K government, or the BJP, or the general Indian public to make at this time?


The Indian state has not held its ground . 1. We have not been able to provide protection to the Hindus and Sikhs that lived there so the first tenet of state holding its ground ie allowing people who believe in its writ to live there is defeated. This never happened in Punjab on such a scale at the very peak of terrorism. 2. Successive state governments are sympathetic to the terrorist cause because of the Islamic connection and vote banks. So how has the Indian state held its ground ? 3. You gave the example of Kaluchak ...thats a very good example of how the state could not even protect the families of its army on army ground.

Lastly we have a huge number of troops tied down which is hurting the balance of our army so we have had to raise new formations to take on China. Inspite of that we have had thousands of casulaties of civilians and troops including several senior officers of Lt Col and above. So a huge cost to us and still not being able to protect our citizens. Pak has imposed this cost on us for 0 cost to themselves. This is not holding our ground sir.

Yes we have destroyed jihadis relentlessly but more are sneaked in from a huge human reservoir in Pakistan. Yet we keep battling them on our own ground. Staff College 101 will tell you this is crazy. I would much rather we do the same in Pak and they hold their ground.
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 12 Jul 2017 02:18, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Cosmo_R » 12 Jul 2017 02:14

Here's an HT article that illustrates how the termites like this Abhishek Saha are rushing to provide cover for the perps of the attack.

"The narrative is wrong because the police have said a bus carrying pilgrims was caught in the crossfire when militants attacked a police post."

http://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/ ... hxSrL.html

This is the same crowd that tried to deflect the 2002 Godhra incineration 0f 60 Hindu pilgrims by essentially floating the idea that they did a Jon Benet Ramsey on themselves—IOW they set themselves on fire. It was not the Muslim mob that did it.

He mentions lynchings but carefully avoids any mention of the victims of the terror attack. Hey! they were Hindus. Just numbers.

The other day a Kerala police guy goes record to say that he welcomes more Muslims in his state because in essence, it keeps the Hindus from getting belligerent.

We don't need Pakistan as an enemy. We have them here working from within. Read about one Basharat Ali (he of NYT op-ed fame) as blames the Indian state and hopes it collapses—in Yawn.

These termites are the same who espouse the grand 'Idea of India'—the very one that led to us being doormats for various invasions.
Last edited by Cosmo_R on 12 Jul 2017 02:26, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Cosmo_R » 12 Jul 2017 02:22

^^^"Who were the intended audience or audiences of this attack? And what is the message being sent? "

The audience is Modi &co and in a larger sense, the Indian state. The message is "You can't do anything because any harsh response will be seen as anti-Muslim (and we will make sure our useful idiots in India amplify this) and you will have bad press internally and externally. Either way, we will loosen your hold on Kashmir."

I do hope our invincible pigeon Dovalji is hard at work on ways to separate Baluchistan from its oppressors now that we no longer have to worry about Iran. That's a payback to the bakpakis and to their Chinese masters (not friends:)). A twofer.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby sunnyP » 12 Jul 2017 02:26

IndraD wrote:Bus driver who drove through bullets to get Rs 5 Lak reward, he is also being show cased around as example of Ganga Jamna Tehjib/Kashmiriyat etc http://www.news18.com/news/india/rs-5-l ... 58361.html



A bit unfair - he drove through bullets to save his own ass and others on the bus.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Rudradev » 12 Jul 2017 02:45

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Rudradev wrote:If we are done with the emotional responses we need to figure out exactly why this was done, why now.


Q2) Who were the intended audience or audiences of this attack? And what is the message being sent? Is it any different from the same old message (all Kafirs must die) which, since 1990, has never deterred the Indian state from determinedly holding its ground and relentlessly destroying jihadis in Kashmir? Or is there something new here? Some specific unwise move that they desperately want to provoke either the GOI, or the J&K government, or the BJP, or the general Indian public to make at this time?


The Indian state has not held its ground . 1. We have not been able to provide protection to the Hindus and Sikhs that lived there so the first tenet of state holding its ground ie allowing people who believe in its writ to live there is defeated. This never happened in Punjab on such a scale at the very peak of terrorism. 2. Successive state governments are sympathetic to the terrorist cause because of the Islamic connection and vote banks. So how has the Indian state held its ground ? 3. You gave the example of Kaluchak ...thats a very good example of how the state could not even protect the families of its army on army ground.
.


Quick point here.

The Indian state being able to hold its ground (and failing in that ability in certain instances) is one thing. Here we have to be careful as to what is realistic to expect. Could we have done better by the Pandits in 1989-90... of course (and the reason we didn't is because of secular pandering to Muslims and the babu-cracy's blinkered perceptions of Pakistan as a rational actor). But on the other hand, we cannot reasonably look at every failure to stop a terrorist atrocity as proof that the Indian state is not holding ground. "Not holding ground" is a big-picture phenomenon where New Delhi's sovereignty over J&K is not merely challenged but reversed or wiped out (as for example in many parts of Syria today). That has never happened in J&K (though it very nearly did happen in Punjab at one point).

Anyway, what I was referring to is something different. Specifically, Type 2b attacks: purely genocidal, ethnic-cleansing attacks against non-Muslim civilians in J&K have not made any difference to the will of the Indian state to hold its ground regarding J&K. So, clearly IF a Type 2b attack is meant to dent the will of the Indian state to hold its ground, that has never succeeded in the past.

Kaluchak was not a Type 2b attack, it was Type 2a in my categorization: the reason it was carried out was to create outrage (via murdering civilian family members of army personnel) as a direct provocation against the IA (a symbol of the Indian state) at the height of the Parakram mobilization. The motivation behind it was to goad a specific response which the Pakis gamed US would protect them from at that time.

This is a different terrorist tactic than when ordinary civilians who have no special connection to the Indian state (govt officials, security forces, political leaders, diplomats, etc.) are targeted simply for being non-Muslim. The intended audience and message are different.

Again we are talking about "holding ground" not changing the status quo. Like it or not, rescinding Article 370 etc. would be a change of status quo at this point and while I fully agree that it is necessary, there will be a lot of institutional inertia resisting it.
Last edited by Rudradev on 12 Jul 2017 02:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Cosmo_R » 12 Jul 2017 02:53

"Again we are talking about "holding ground" not changing the status quo. Like it or not, rescinding Article 370 etc. would be a change of status quo at this point and while I fully agree that it is necessary, there will be a lot of institutional inertia resisting it."

The OBOR/CPEC stuff offers a perfect opportunity to scrap A370. Takes bal$$ to do so. But it can win NaMo 2019 and make termite mukht Bharat.

Institutional inertia can be overcome by reaching directly to people as Modi does on social media. It bypasses Karan Thapar and Dbutt as interpreters and influencers.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Rudradev » 12 Jul 2017 03:13

All on BRF are agreed... 370 needs to go. Pakistan needs to be comprehensively destroyed. J&K needs to be resettled with people from all over India and demographically altered so that it no longer has a Muslim majority population. All these are long-term programs.

To me it makes no sense repeating over and over that these things should be done, that they must be done, that they can be done, etc. I am sure of that and anyone who is on BRF should be sure of it as well. But having this soundtrack on endless loop only distracts us from the relevant questions raised by this particular incident (and the specific context in which it is happening). I have a sense that finally, after a long time, the pieces are in place for us to do things that will fundamentally alter the course of our history. We really need to be paying attention here.

I humbly suggest we focus instead on the following questions:
1) What did the Pakis hope to gain by targeting Amarnath victims (AGupta has suggested that it was meant to provoke communal riots... is there any other possibility?)
2) What are the likely effects on the Indian polity at large of targeting Amarnath victims (can we hope for a groundswell of political support to end 370, for example? And how to channel this so that it doesn't simply disappear down the memory-hole as a thousand previous terrorist attacks have done?)
3) What are the covert and overt military responses that India could stage against Pakistan as retaliation for this attack? How is each type of response likely to impact the unfolding security scenario in the subcontinent given the China standoff at Doka Lam, etc? Gen Rawat has said we are ready for a 2.5 front war, but what is this likely to look like? Ideally we will fight that war when and where we are best placed to fight it, not because our hand is forced to fight it at a time and place of the enemy's choosing. How to ensure this?
4) Can we choose a form of retaliation for the Amarnath attack that actually serves as an opportunity for us to shape the coming conflict (and its outcome) in ways that we want?
5) I was going to add a fifth question regarding "international community's opinion" but I won't. F--k the international community. From Venezuela to Ukraine to Qatar, multiple players are too busy rearranging their immediate geopolitical environments to suit themselves. They will not bother with anything we do, and we should not give a $hit even if they do.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby ArjunPandit » 12 Jul 2017 03:25

Rudradev point 5 is very important, even Porkis incorporated GB as a full blown state, remember that??? Hardly any discussion on that. What they have been doing in GB over years, you know better, hell If porkis can do that at least we can remove this 370 $hit

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby IndraD » 12 Jul 2017 03:27

we should also think from point of view China trying to distract India in Kashmir through willing Proxy called Pakistan, from Sikkim, as a warning that two front will be difficult for India.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby ramana » 12 Jul 2017 03:27

RD, What you want to do is root cause analysis.
However to do that you need an accurate timeline of what happened and eliminate all opinions to get to facts.
Then you can use different tools like 5 Whys and flowchart etc.

To me 5 Whys give you a surface look while the problem is a tree structure. Hence the word 'root' cause. Its all about solvability.

Some steps to get to the end are:
1)Problem description
2)RC diagram
3)Then come counter measures to prevent recurrence or corrective action
4)Finally an action plan to get it implemented.


If you read the many 'ten things' people suggested its mostly emotional and things that cannot be implemented or need someone else to bell the cat.


Hope people get where I am coming from.

For starters how many terrorists where there and how far did the incident happen from the police naka? How many policemen were there?

I haven't seen one map!

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby ramana » 12 Jul 2017 03:30

IndraD, Bring in China only confuses the mind. The terrorists were jihadis supported by Pakistan and then by China.
There were poice forces which were ineffective.

Lets concentrate on what really happened.
And could have prevented the killing of the 7 pilgrims and wounding so many.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby ssundar » 12 Jul 2017 03:32

ramana wrote:Marten et al,
Just to indulge me what are ten things you want to do that will give India upper hand in J&K?

We can then rank them and see how implementable they are.


1. J&K is bifurcated/trifurcated into Kashmir Valley vs. Jammu/Ladakh.
2. Jammu and/or Ladakh independent admins retire Article 370 from their zones.
3. Move Rohingyas from Jammu to Kashmir Valley.
4. Open the floodgates for investment in Jammu and Ladakh.
5. Kashmir Valley downgraded to Union Territory status with limited powers similar to Delhi.
6. Promise that Kashmir will gain full statehood when PoK is reclaimed and combined to form a larger state.
7. Cut the Hurrirats loose - no Indian Security and no funding.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack

Postby SwamyG » 12 Jul 2017 04:06

panduranghari wrote:Is this reprisal against innocent civilians because India did not get a bloody nose at Doklam Plateau? Done by Pakis at the instigation of the Chinese using local Muslims?

Sometimes elders bring discipline the fighting children thus "You are elder to him, I do not care who started the fight; if I hear one more sound I will punish you".

So anything anywhere something happens to Indian, PoK camps must be hit; and quickly prevent any escalation. Simple.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby A_Gupta » 12 Jul 2017 04:11

Rudradev wrote:1) What did the Pakis hope to gain by targeting Amarnath victims (AGupta has suggested that it was meant to provoke communal riots... is there any other possibility?)


The others I can think of are:

1. Restore terrorist recruits' flagging spirits by hitting a soft target.
2. Add more Islamic fervor to terrorist recruitment by hitting idolators.

The above two are optimistic, in that it supposes Pakistan has little success to show to the warm bodies it needs to recruit to keep the jihad going.

3. Indirectly hit at PM Modi by killing pilgrims from Gujarat, "his state".

This assumes that the terrorists are able to acquire and act on that kind of information

4. In general, Islamics' tactics are to wage a war of brutality and terror, to wear down the resistance of the opponent. This has worked very well for them, on the average, if you look at history. So another possibility is that there is no reason, except that since the killing can be done, so it will be done.

PS: you saw the Amnesty International statement about "there had better be no reprisals on civilians". The expectation that there would be reprisals is Aakar Patel/Paki thinking.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Y. Kanan » 12 Jul 2017 04:41

Article 370 will never be repealed. You're dreaming. It would take a lot of grass roots agitating to push that through parliament (with a 2/3 majority, no less!). A 2/3 majority never happens, especially with any controversial measure. 99% of our fellow Hindus couldn't care less about such things.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Primus » 12 Jul 2017 04:45

I am so glad the title is back to the original.

AoA is the War Cry of Islam, has been so since its inception. Ghazni and his men used it a thousand years ago, muslim terrorists and aggressors of all kinds use it every time they attack kafirs. It is not to 'strike fear into the hearts of the enemy' but to claim the assault for Islam and Allah. They also do it to embolden and harden themselves. There may still be a small part of their soul that quails at the killing of babies and AoA serves well to silence that tiny voice.

This attack was designed to cause the maximum outrage:
1. It is a terrorist attack on Indian soil
2. It is an attack on civilians
3. It is an attack on civilian Hindus
4. It is an attack on civilian Hindus on pilgrimage to a Hindu shrine
5. it is an attack on civilian Hindus on pilgrimage to a Hindu shrine considered THE most sacred by many.

No illusions about this, it was intended to send a message to NM, BJP, YA and all the Hindus - 'we can get you where you are most vulnerable and you won't be able to do anything to us'.

Hence the response needs to be both visible and palpable. I am confident that it will be. Bahut ho chuka.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Cosmo_R » 12 Jul 2017 04:46

Y. Kanan wrote:Article 370 will never be repealed. You're dreaming. It would take a lot of grass roots agitating to push that through parliament (with a 2/3 majority, no less!). A 2/3 majority never happens, especially with any controversial measure. 99% of our fellow Hindus couldn't care less about such things.


Possibly. Shall we roll out the doormats?

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Amber G. » 12 Jul 2017 04:54

sorry if already posted, just to document here..<from news reports about international reactions>

Condemnation against the Amarnath attack poured in from the international community on Tuesday, with the US "deploring" the strike and Germany saying it "resolutely stands" by India in the fight against terrorism and extremism.

Nepal's foreign affairs ministry, in a release, also strongly condemned the terrorist attack and expressed its condolences.

We deplore the attack on #Amarnath pilgrims & condemn all acts of terrorism. Deepest condolences to the families & all those affected," the US ambassador's official Twitter handle posted.

The US has appointed Kenneth I Juster as its ambassador to India, but he is yet to take office.

In a message, German Ambassador Martin Ney said, "On behalf of the Government of Germany, I strongly condemn yesterday's terrorist attack in Jammu & Kashmir. Seven Amarnath yatris lost their lives and more than a dozen were wounded."
"Germany resolutely stands by India in the fight against terrorism and extremism," Ney said.

"As the G20 leaders just reaffirmed in Hamburg, we are resolved to tackle terrorism as a common challenge to the global community," he noted.

He also conveyed deepest condolences to the families of the victims.

"Germany resolutely stands by India in the fight against terrorism and extremism," Ney said.

"As the G20 leaders just reaffirmed in Hamburg, we are resolved to tackle terrorism as a common


Meanwhile LeT ( main suspect per Jammu and Kashmir Police) got a little scared (?) and condemned the attack and called it Unislamic.


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