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Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Jul 2017 22:23

Gandoo-e-Paint

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Deans » 13 Jul 2017 22:29

darshan wrote:I had called makemytrip and sent an email to remind them that Hindus like me also fly. If they do take any negative action, accept me as a gujju troll on their social media. I suggest that other posters feeling same remind them of the other side of the coin. Not all their money comes from eid and hajj travels.


I know the management of MMT. Their heart is in the right place. I don't believe anything will happen to Ms Kalra. While I agree with her sentiments, it was inappropriate to use profanity when addressing the HM apart from disrespecting his age. I also agree with a couple of previous posters who said that HM's statement is good for optics. If a tweet is required to get the sickular brigade on your side, then that's a small price to pay. I'm sure we at BRF will judge HM and the govt on their actions and not a tweet.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby schinnas » 13 Jul 2017 22:36

Deans wrote:
darshan wrote:I had called makemytrip and sent an email to remind them that Hindus like me also fly. If they do take any negative action, accept me as a gujju troll on their social media. I suggest that other posters feeling same remind them of the other side of the coin. Not all their money comes from eid and hajj travels.


I know the management of MMT. Their heart is in the right place. I don't believe anything will happen to Ms Kalra. While I agree with her sentiments, it was inappropriate to use profanity when addressing the HM apart from disrespecting his age. I also agree with a couple of previous posters who said that HM's statement is good for optics. If a tweet is required to get the sickular brigade on your side, then that's a small price to pay. I'm sure we at BRF will judge HM and the govt on their actions and not a tweet.


Couldn't agree more. Those professionally employed shouldn't use such language against the second highest ranked minister of the Government of India. That cannot be justified on any account.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Rudradev » 13 Jul 2017 22:40

I want to point out a common operational tactic in Islamist mass-violence in the Indian subcontinent. It's a pattern you see repeatedly in incidents of such mass-violence, whatever their intensity or supposed "root cause".

I've sketched a couple of rough graphics to illustrate.

First example: Baduria, WB. A Hindu high-school student apparently posted something on Facebook that was used to manufacture outrage as allegedly offensive to Islam. A large Muslim mob surrounded the student's house, assaulted his family, burned the house down, and attempted to lynch the student.

If you look at the disposition of Islamic activists involved in the incident it looks like this:
Image

Here, the actual lethal or potentially lethal violence (culpability for homicide and large-scale destruction of property in the eyes of the LAW) is carried out by only a few individuals... the darkest green ones marked "A".

Around them are a larger number of medium green individuals marked "B". These operatives are abetting the violence... intimidating, blocking escape routes, using (in and of themselves) non-lethal measures like assault with fists/sticks/stones. The point is that in the eyes of the LAW their culpability is LESS than those marked "A".

And surrounding the B individuals are a very large number of light-green Muslims marked "C". These people don't have to do anything at all but stand there, look angry, mill around, and shout slogans.

You can see how the wide belt of C-Muslims is completely protecting the A- and B- Muslims by enveloping them, and acting as a barrier against Security Forces (the khaki squares).

Here is the vital detail. In the eyes of the LAW the C-Muslims are hardly culpable at all. Given the vast burden of precedents from Nehruvian Sickularitis, it would be easy for a lawyer to argue that any C-Muslim who was arrested was only expressing his/her protest over offended religious sentiments. Preamble to the constitution and all that.

However, the C-Muslims are also serving as willing human shields for the A- and B-Muslims. The B-Muslims are serving as willing human shields for A-Muslims as well as abetting the crimes of the A-Muslims. It is only the A-Muslims who are actually committing murder, arson, etc.

If the Security Forces want to get at the A- and B- Muslims they have to use techniques that will harm the C-Muslims.
This key aspect is what is consistently highlighted by the pro-Islamic, anti-Hindu propaganda machinery. Death or injury of C-Muslims will invariably be framed as the State using deadly force to injure or kill ordinary citizens who were simply present to exercise their fundamental right of protest at their religious sentiments being offended.

In the Baduria case, Mamta Bannerji actually argued that nothing was done to stop the mob burning down the house because "if the police had resorted to firing, 200 people would have died".

The very same schema illustrated for Baduria above, applies in J&K to the scenario where DSP M A Pandith was lynched outside the Mosque in Srinagar.

Second Example:

Here is another illustration more typical of what happens when terrorists are cornered by security force cordons in J&K.

Image

The terrorists (A) are the armed individuals hiding within the buildings (or whatever cover is available).

The B-Muslims in this case are the stone-pelters. Stone-pelting is of course an offense but a much lesser offense, in the eyes of the LAW, than the terrorist activities carried out by the A-Muslims. Responses by Security Forces against the stone-pelting B-Muslims, such as using pellet guns or tying them to the front of a jeep, will be propagandized as heavy-handed violation of human rights.

But importantly, there is an even larger number of C-Muslims interposed between the A- and B- Muslims and the Security Forces. These C-Muslims MAY never throw a stone in the course of the incident (they may simply shout slogans, wave Pakistani flags, and look angry). Or they MAY be simply waiting to be assigned to stone-pelting duty. But the security forces are not allowed to act pre-emptively to stop a shouting C-Muslim from upgrading to a stone-pelting B-Muslim, until and unless he/she actually throws a stone. In the meantime, again, C-Muslims serve the valuable purpose of serving as willing human shields (for both B-Muslim stone pelters and A-Muslim armed terrorists). If anything happens to them, the entire anti-Hindu nexus of the judiciary, the Indian and foreign media, human-rights NGOs, hostile foreign governments, and opposition political parties will put up a shrill chorus condemning the security forces and the GOI as communal, fascist, and utterly disregarding of human rights.

We know all this.

The question is: at what point does restraining the security forces to protect the life and limb of C-Muslims in such scenarios STOP being worthwhile?

Does the logic of restraint follow a law of diminishing returns?

Is there a case for simply taking out a certain % of C- (and of course B-) Muslims in every such incident? This at least could serve as a deterrent to large numbers of potential candidates who want to come out and act as C-Muslims the next time an incident occurs. It would assure them that involvement in such activity, even if legally unimpeachable and covered by "human rights" propaganda, also amounts to playing a round of "Paki Roulette". Every single time.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Amber G. » 13 Jul 2017 22:47

While almost every country condemned it, only China, Pakistan are silent on Amarnath attack amid world outrage

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby ShauryaT » 13 Jul 2017 23:29

Rudradev wrote:The question is: at what point does restraining the security forces to protect the life and limb of C-Muslims in such scenarios STOP being worthwhile?

Does the logic of restraint follow a law of diminishing returns?

Is there a case for simply taking out a certain % of C- (and of course B-) Muslims in every such incident? This at least could serve as a deterrent to large numbers of potential candidates who want to come out and act as C-Muslims the next time an incident occurs. It would assure them that involvement in such activity, even if legally unimpeachable and covered by "human rights" propaganda, also amounts to playing a round of "Paki Roulette". Every single time.
RD: Thanks for describing and depicting the scenario. What the Indian state does is go after the "A" most times. The "B" some times and C are untouched. But the C are there in the first place because there are entities creating the circumstances for A, B and C to play their roles. Let us call this the X - in the case of J&K the Hurriyat and other half within system traitors. In other parts the mullahs. IOW the political leadership. This group is seldom touched and if so, quite lightly. Then there is the PA that backs the X group and other NGO's and foreign sources that back the Mullahs in rest of India, the X are dependent on the Y. Finally of course there is the Z group, and these are the elites in the muslim world within and outside. They remain untouched. It is this elite group that forms the nucleus of the Y group.

So, I would say, certainly kill the A, prosecute the B. Leave the C alone but go after and prosecute the X group, make it expensive if not impossible for the Y to thrive and at some levels mostly ideological but also financial and social make it expensive for the Z group, to the degree possible.

No magic bullets but going after C is counter productive, IMO. If you take the 2NT as an example, till 1939 the ML was nowhere, by 1946 they swept the muslim electorate. What changed is the ability of the elite to drive their division driven agenda. The masses acted as legitimizers to what their leaders asked and articulated.

The Indian state needs to build capabilities to after the leadership and the elite and punish outsiders - and suppress the fake objections of fifth columnists. Eventually the elite has to sue for reconciliation under a forced set of circumstances. This force has to bear the force of the state.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby darshan » 13 Jul 2017 23:46

schinnas wrote:
Deans wrote:.


Couldn't agree more. Those professionally employed shouldn't use such language against the second highest ranked minister of the Government of India. That cannot be justified on any account.


I disagree. Not willing to sacrifice any blood (especially aggressive one) to placate enemies. I would have agreed if the language usage was against military official but not if official is public one. May be the home ministry should have been on top of their game and would not have faced a tweet demanding action. Right to survive and be alive with freedom is for everyone professional or not. And respect is given when earned by everyone whether professionally employed or not. NDA should not forget 2004. It's very easy for support base to disappear in India. I would love to see Amit Shah's response when he's asked about actions by other Gujaratis. Where are HM's actions against exposing and mobbing of social media Hindus? Is the right to use abusive language only reserved for non Hindus and their supporters? To me being politically correct is same as being nehruvian. Not falling for that trap again.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby schinnas » 13 Jul 2017 23:53

Unable to follow your logic. It is not right for anybody whether right wing or left wing, hindu or muslim or atheist to use such words against Home Minister of India. If the said person is professionally employed, the company will be justified in taking action against them as they are poor ambassadors of the company. Many tech companies have clear guidelines on public social media presence in their job contract.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby darshan » 14 Jul 2017 01:15

schinnas wrote: If the said person is professionally employed, the company will be justified in taking action against them as they are poor ambassadors of the company. Many tech companies have clear guidelines on public social media presence in their job contract.

My employer also has such guidelines but it clearly states that it only applies that if opinion explicitly or implicitly involved company. I don't know what MMT's would be. However, I can be alt right, alt left, etc. or bash public official as long as it's not involving my employer directly or indirectly. Being professionally employed doesn't mean not allowed to have opinions. I know that you have already stated that your point stands for everyone. However, I bet that the same done by a muslim professional in context of Hindus would have been more than politically accepted in India even if it directly used employer's brand. The disagreement about automatic respect to public official ranks was my main point. Sorry I can't agree to respect public officials by default due to their ranks. By that logic, when I was Indian citizen I would have had to respect the whole nehru clan just because they occupied some chair. I rather be dead than respect someone like that. Actions and results earn respect. First HM failed to protect yatris and second failed to protect a voter. May be he should have thought about before replying and garnering attention and allowing some girl to become piñata. Does he reply to all tweets? I'm sure that many BRF posters may have or will send him very well mannered and crafted tweets about HM's policies. He probably won't reply to any. The problem was HM not knowing his rank and position, replying, not respecting voters that voted govt in and allowing some Hindu to be piñata and get abused. And after making mistake, he didn't even bother to take any action about exposing of identities in social media. Sorry I don't see any action by HM here to respect him. I will leave respecting ranks to dictatorships or may be that's a kashmiriyat thing to do which I haven't learned

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Primus » 14 Jul 2017 01:19

Prem Kumar wrote:Dear All: those who want to edit Wikipedia, by all means go ahead & do it. Godspeed to you. But be forewarned about a few things:

1) Get into it only if you are willing to stick with it for the long haul. Your edits will be deleted/reversed, you will have to argue and make your case with sock-puppet accounts of ISI/Cheenis/Evangelists, you may be banned etc etc. There have been well-meaning attempts by Indians in the past that have fizzled out because they didn't have the stamina to stick with it. Nor the co-ordination required.

2) Please make sure you understand how the editing/approval & hierarchy mechanism of Wikipedia works. If you don't do the homework, a Paki will remove your post on a technicality that you didn't pay attention to

3) Wikipedia is devious. Its devious because its politically controlled while giving the pretense of openness & neutrality. All players are in it to slant articles their way and Govts like the Chinese have employed people full time for this (while in parallel blocking Wikipedia in their own country!). As usual, the Indian Govt has neither the desire nor the understanding nor the mojo to do this.

4) Rajiv Malhotra is planning a video series on Wikipedia's deviousness. If you want to contribute, email him

5) The only trustworthy articles in Wikipedia are the ones where there is no scope for political slanting & the data is purely factual. Like "What is the atomic number of Sodium?". If we want the history of 1857 War of Independence, Wikipedia is not the place to go (at least for Hindus/Indians)


Thank you so much for this clarification Prem Kumar Ji. And here I have been donating to Wiki thinking they are on the level!

I did think that there is a dedicated bunch of people keeping the narrative going, even if it is false. I tried editing and commenting on a quote from a creationist on one of the scientific articles and the next day my corrections were reversed. It happened twice so I know somebody is monitoring that page, there must be an automatic flag that goes up every time somebody changes something and there must be people who are 'assigned' pages to keep track of. Wow, talk about serious monkey-business going on!

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby ramana » 14 Jul 2017 01:32

darshan, You are applying American norms to the situation in India.

You have to go by local custom.

its not appropriate to use profanity to an elderly person (Age 70+).
And to do that to an elderly #2 Union Cabinet Minster is very foolish no matter what your free speech tells you.

Yet it was the SJW chatterati who harassed her. Eg. Saikat Datta et al.
And it was that torrent of abuse that made her suspend the account.

Lets keep things I perspective.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby disha » 14 Jul 2017 01:45

Amber G. wrote:While almost every country condemned it, only China, Pakistan are silent on Amarnath attack amid world outrage


The dogs that did not bark.

Proves their complicity in masterminding this murders.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby saip » 14 Jul 2017 03:07

I have not seen it covered by Paki media either except Dawn which said 'alleged terrorists' killed pilgrims. It disappeared after one day. I posted a comment questioning the use of the word 'alleged' and asked if the paper has referred the killers of army school children as 'alleged terrorists' . I have not seen my comment or the item again.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Primus » 14 Jul 2017 03:40

ShauryaT wrote:
The Indian state needs to build capabilities to after the leadership and the elite and punish outsiders - and suppress the fake objections of fifth columnists. Eventually the elite has to sue for reconciliation under a forced set of circumstances. This force has to bear the force of the state.


Anybody remember 'Mississippi Burning'?

The FBI agents are not getting anywhere in their search for the bodies of the three civil rights activists. They are being blocked at every step by the KKK and their supporter, the white Mayor Tillman. Finally agent Anderson secretly sends a black man to kidnap the mayor. This man then threatens the mayor in a classic 'let me tell you a story' style how he will castrate him with a shaving razor unless he spills the beans. I can't recall the exact words, and YT is not working well, but here is the link:



This is precisely what is needed. No army, police, politicians. Just get the big Mullah and scare the living daylights out of him - a saffron-clad, tilak smeared, trishul-carrying man with a big moustache to softly tell him how he is going to be circumcised once more unless he tells his pets to stop. Or maybe really do it to a handful of the big-wigs and the word will spread.
Last edited by Primus on 14 Jul 2017 05:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Amber G. » 14 Jul 2017 03:43

While almost every country condemned it, only China, Pakistan are silent on Amarnath attack amid world outrage


The dogs that did not bark.


The dog did bark..
And this shameless person who is Paki spokesperson of foreign office,actually blames India..

Zakria said ..

On a question about Amarnath attack, the spokesperson said Pakistan ‘condemns killing of innocent civilians.” “We sympathize with the bereaved families and the injured.”

However, he said the involvement of Indian secret agencies behind the Amarnath attack could not be ruled out.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby JwalaMukhi » 14 Jul 2017 04:03

Rudradev wrote:I want to point out a common operational tactic in Islamist mass-violence in the Indian subcontinent. It's a pattern you see repeatedly in incidents of such mass-violence, whatever their intensity or supposed "root cause".

However, the C-Muslims are also serving as willing human shields for the A- and B-Muslims. The B-Muslims are serving as willing human shields for A-Muslims as well as abetting the crimes of the A-Muslims. It is only the A-Muslims who are actually committing murder, arson, etc.

This is a very good model and it can be extended to terror support infrastructures too, mainly the ELM (MSM). The narrative support base in the media world, the MSM, follows very similar behaviour with A being the working tip which sets the outrageous narrative, B being the eminents quoting each other and fortifying the narrative, and C being the distribution channels for those narrative.
The widespread publicity given to the terror incidents and the spin put on it by the other A,B,C fifth columnists plays a larger role in amplifying the malafide goal.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 Jul 2017 04:30

The analysis is great, but the problem is till the time RD and shiv's analysis does not become mainstream we will keep on debating this here and when it will, we will say "BRF (read selected posters) is ahead of curve".
Reminds me to ask, Rudradevji, are you on any social media, where you post it, which can be shared.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2017 06:33

Rudradev - those are very good graphics. They are a corollary - a further development of my "oil droplets" Islamic society where the core is dark green, surrounded at the periphery by light green visible to outsiders.

There is something very very physical about the structures as drawn - they are not metaphorical

It seems as though my oil droplet is intended for normal life but what you have depicted is the "opening out" of an oil droplet like a cell wall opening to swallow a noxious agent. The "opened" droplet form the dark green "cutting edge" that actually indulge in violence, but the mass of light green form an actual physical barrier.

I wonder if the more aware Muslims understand that this is the form that their societal organization takes. They always have readymade excuses to be in denial. "Islamophobia", "persecution", "everyone does exactly that". But no. Very often disagreements are converted into riots especially if the victims being attacked are seen as weak

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2017 06:37

ArjunPandit wrote:The analysis is great, but the problem is till the time RD and shiv's analysis does not become mainstream we will keep on debating this here

This is a good observation. In fact sociology is all about the study of groups like this. We don't take it seriously enough and we are content to copy paste western sociological paradigms which are often studies of us as if we are zoo animals. Even among the most "ahead of curve" among us - little startling statements of mental colonization appear. I saw one yesterday in the locked LCA thread

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Shankas » 14 Jul 2017 06:44

Bart S wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2017/07/12/kashmiris-do-not-need-to-prove-their-humanity-india-needs-to-prove-its-own/

This is a blatant hitjob by a person with a long and biased history of India-hating, and this is actively being endorsed and encouraged by the WP editorial board. And it looks like this person has a free run of Srinagar and India with our govt as usual sleeping.

SNIP

I think it is time for the GOI to put some curbs on Amazon. Taking our money and paying us back with this crap is worse than if LM were selling us F16s and using the profits to give Pakis F16s for free!


WP and Bozo can be tamed. See this article on ZeroHedge quoting Wall Street

Bezos Bans WaPo Reporters From Social Media Attacks On Advertisers, Customers

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Pathik » 14 Jul 2017 08:49

JE Menon wrote:Akshay, I think broadly speaking my above post answers yours as well. Please no Sahab etc for me macha.

Ah, I just noticed that the good doc has said exactly what I wanted to say, with better sound effects!


JE saar political correctness and big picture awareness is needed, but it does no harm in sending another tweet from RNS calling for smoking the rats (terrorists) out and protecting Indian lives. The frustration builds because of usage of terms like 'neighbouring country' instead of Pakistan by our top leadership including RNS. Don't know what political correctness is to be followed for such instances when the 'neighbour' is slashing private parts and beheading jawans. This time 6 innocent devis killed who were on darshan. If we look from victims point of view all big picture logic is thrown out of the window. RNS and top leadership should quench the thirst on both sides if they want to be politically correct.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2017 09:50

Pathik wrote:does no harm in sending another tweet from RNS calling for smoking the rats (terrorists) out and protecting Indian lives. The frustration builds because of usage of terms like 'neighbouring country' instead of Pakistan by our top leadership including RNS. Don't know what political correctness is to be followed for such instances when the 'neighbour' is slashing private parts and beheading jawans.

I am no one to read Rajnath Singh's mind but let me speculate on some political possibilities

The internal security in the state is dependent on the state government and control of the state government is useful. Now J&K, like other Indian states has its share of pure bhenchods who can be bought. Typically they are wealthy people who use their money to do favours for entire areas - line electricity for slums or freebies etc. These people will work with any state government that pays them off. Currently they are working "with" the PDP/BJP government. These supporters are all turncoats who will accept money from Soniaji, Omar Abdullah and Pakistan if the government changes but they can be paid off to shut up and sit tight as long as too many aggravating statements are not made. If the home minister says something that suggests that Kashmiris are 75% anti-India or that they support Pakistan- then the coalition is screwed, and control will be lost. So Rajnath Singhs hands are tied. Even Mehbooba Muftis statements are guarded so as to not displease the mofos who have been paid up to sit with thumb in Musharraf. There is no idealism here. Just power play

The question is "Is Rajnath Singh trying to hold on to power?" This question suggests that he is power hungry. Yes he is - but he represents the only national government who think like many of us do.

The only possibility of clearing J&K of terrorists using the security forces is when the State Government and Center are together. God only knows how many thousands of crores are going from Karnataka to Italian and JK separatists via NC. Out here we are worshipping Sri Sri Tipu Sultan Maharaj on his Jayanti day. And remember - tomorrow - if we must change Article 370 we need 2/3 majority in Lok Sabha. That means ensuring that the maximum number of people are coopted - either by good work or bribery as required.

Don't be fooled by reports of slashing private parts of soldiers. Of course it is happening and has happened in the past, rarely reported. But as an institution the army does not talk about it in public and the UPA government in the past has been paralysed by separatists and lack of willingness to address the issue because they had their support from breaking India forces only.

Finally - by all means criticize Rajnath Singh. Politicians are toughies - they deal with people who are much more difficult and dangerous to deal with than people thrashing about and complaining on Twitter and BRF, Just compare the way Dogvijay deals with criticism versus Sagarika, Barkha etc. Criticism allows one to let off steam but ultimately what we need to see are results on the ground.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2017 10:03

When you have a national government that derives its power from playing up grievances of 20% minority and holds the majority responsible for filth, poor performance and Nazi like tendencies we are not going to have any serious nation building happening - or even nation consolidation. When you elect governments whose power depends on religious and caste fissures we are going to stay in the same rut we were in pre-1947.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Prem Kumar » 14 Jul 2017 10:05

Rudradev & Shiv: Both your models are excellent and convey the Muslim organizational model very well. Please get it widely published via Twitter & Facebook. The average Hindu doesn't have a mental model to understand Islamic society & he needs it. These models will help him counter the rhetoric: "But all Muslims aren't terrorists"

I have a corollary to this model: Every Muslim is at most 2 degrees separated from a sleeper cell

This will sound provocative. I don't care if it does. But if you look at your model & extend it to social networks (not just physical networks), the same pattern emerges. Islam imposes its writ by making it easy for a Muslim to access his society's violent resources within a couple of WhatsApp forwards. It gives them a sense of belonging & security independent of the State. (This is of course, accompanied by victimhood & demands for more concessions from the State.)

Islamic sleeper cells are also concentric, with increasing levels of stealth & violence-capability. So, a Muslim can access a local mob with 1 WhatsApp message, will need 2 WhatsApp forwards to get to a hitman & 3 levels-deep to access a jihadi. Mosques & Imams are the nodes around which these cells organize themselves.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Karthik S » 14 Jul 2017 10:09

shiv wrote:When you have a national government that derives its power from playing up grievances of 20% minority and holds the majority responsible for filth, poor performance and Nazi like tendencies we are not going to have any serious nation building happening - or even nation consolidation. When you elect governments whose power depends on religious and caste fissures we are going to stay in the same rut we were in pre-1947.


Which government you are referring to Shiv ji? Right now, it's indeed getting difficult to differentiate. Like PM talking against gaurakshaks but not a world about cattle smugglers who killed more people, farmers especially who were trying to stop them from stealing.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Singha » 14 Jul 2017 10:22

looking at the drawing models above, I feel that is true for ANY mob (unitary religions one or mixed). the fighters in the front will be few, some will be B level cadres willing to do work but not engage in head to head combat and C level will be there for 'show of street numbers/moral support' , because they are mildly coerced into going or because they fear for own safety if not going with the mob and staying back. I too have been part of such a mob at C level in btech.

I dont think its a feature of muslim mobs alone but a universal way in which ape/human mobs and kabilas tend to self-organize without even overt planning, based on levels of commitments - fighters will run to the front on their own wielding weapons, B level will tend to hang back a little behind the edge of the battle area...

a useful variation is deploying large numbers of women, kids and old people in C level, with media crews embedded to make it tough for police to break through the chakravyuh to A level for lack of women police and bad optics.

the A elites will do their job and vanish and this is consistently seen in armed terrorists who appear like magic in jihadi funerals in J&K, say their prayers, even fire gun salutes to their fallen comrades and then disappear with police being mute spectators in the outer cordon behind 1000s of C level processionists.

however what distinguishes islamic societies and oil droplets is
- all three A,B,C are able to rapidly mobilize based on top down diktats - no what if, why/who questions entertained - you have a 'go bag' ready and you deploy with the quickness of a military team or there will be consequences
- relatively large number of A level elite fighters - a background in metal working, auto workshops, butchery means strong people with access to sharp weapons and the ability to use them are not rare. some will be local criminals with a known history of meteing out severe beatings and even death raps , so will strike fear immediately
- ability to mobilize women in large numbers for C level
- top down discipline in each area, enforced with no ThoughtCrime entertained, the horde shall move as one and any iconoclasts will be severely punished ... other types of mobs will have peace loving "community elders" and "well wishers" trying to stop the rush to violence and start peace talks but not in the kabila. indian culture sets store by not disrespecting elders even if they are wrong and giving them a patient hearing. i have seen 'para fights' defused by community elders from getting worse. we had one such late gent named Rai Babu in our street and he was approached for any civic dispute or fight to mediate. his means and official post were minor but everyone listened to him.

this greatly magnifies their combat power even with medium numbers. they are like one of the khan armoured brigade combat groups, that pack more the power of a corps in a 3rd world army.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby James » 14 Jul 2017 10:56

A stone thrower is a terrorist who has not yet started carrying a gun. It is important to internalize this first, so that necessary action can be taken. And after that action is taken, AFSPA does exist to provide cover to the forces.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby syam » 14 Jul 2017 11:15

This ABC model reminds me of this rape game,

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2017 14:42

Karthik S wrote:
shiv wrote:When you have a national government that derives its power from playing up grievances of 20% minority and holds the majority responsible for filth, poor performance and Nazi like tendencies we are not going to have any serious nation building happening - or even nation consolidation. When you elect governments whose power depends on religious and caste fissures we are going to stay in the same rut we were in pre-1947.


Which government you are referring to Shiv ji? Right now, it's indeed getting difficult to differentiate. Like PM talking against gaurakshaks but not a world about cattle smugglers who killed more people, farmers especially who were trying to stop them from stealing.


Every person is free to reach his conclusions about which government/s I am talking about. Not up to me to lead people by the nose.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby JwalaMukhi » 14 Jul 2017 18:49

However, virulent the ABC model turns out, it can always be busted. Mosul is a great example. If one can afford and actually give zero phucks for damages to C, and also zero phucks to the consequences of giving zero phucks to damages to C.
The ABC model in islamic system is a closed loop system with excellent feedback loop. The C is very strong and beaten down to support B, and similarly B is beaten down to support A: no matter what happens. Else A will punish both B and C to fall in line in a hurry. As a consequence A,B and C work in easy flow to keep the gig going.
The weak model of ABC, if one can call that on the Yindoo (SDRE) side is, A is left to fend for itself depending on the circumstances. The C yindoos are very fickle and do not dig in deep and support for long haul. C needs instant results, else it goes into auto immune disease, attacking B and A randomly to weaken the whole system. Same things happen with B. Actually A only has positive feedback and incentives to B and C and not penalization otherwise. It has its advantages, but also severe disadvantages too.
So, once in a while C gets stronger and displaces Diggy raja, but C immediately needs instant results from its A side, else C starts taunting B and A on its side. Self goal.
As far as repercussion for this attack, it is guaranteed, it will come. Modi is in unenviable position to continual keep the bad guys on the run. Dharma needs to make sure adharma cannot have fitful sleep. It should keep them on tenterhooks. In fact, what is needed and hopefully is being done is offense as the best form of defense. It makes sense to have a part-time defence minister, while having a full-time offence minister (need not be public) to take this fight forward, given the fickle minded C team on the yindoo side.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby arshyam » 14 Jul 2017 19:32

^^ JwalaMukhi saar, very nicely put. I've x-posted some of your comments relevant to yindu fickleness in the political thread.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 14 Jul 2017 19:34

Rudradev ji, Disha ji,Prem Kumar

Thanks for the info about wiki and RD ji thanks for making an effort to coordinate response. I will do what I can. We need a big effort I think.

Best of luck all. Been a pleasure especially Shiv, Ramana, and JE on this thread.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Rudradev » 14 Jul 2017 21:01

shiv wrote:Rudradev - those are very good graphics. They are a corollary - a further development of my "oil droplets" Islamic society where the core is dark green, surrounded at the periphery by light green visible to outsiders.

There is something very very physical about the structures as drawn - they are not metaphorical

It seems as though my oil droplet is intended for normal life but what you have depicted is the "opening out" of an oil droplet like a cell wall opening to swallow a noxious agent. The "opened" droplet form the dark green "cutting edge" that actually indulge in violence, but the mass of light green form an actual physical barrier.

I wonder if the more aware Muslims understand that this is the form that their societal organization takes. They always have readymade excuses to be in denial. "Islamophobia", "persecution", "everyone does exactly that". But no. Very often disagreements are converted into riots especially if the victims being attacked are seen as weak


Thank you Shiv (and also Jwala Mukhi ji, Arjun Pandit ji for your comments).

Indeed, I should credit Shiv's Oil Droplet model as the original framework for these sketches. In fact, the scenarios I have drawn are special cases of the Oil Droplet model for the achievement of specific goals on a limited scale of time, space, and numbers. The Oil Droplet itself illustrates the general overall principle of how Islam functions within non-Islamic societies.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Rudradev » 14 Jul 2017 21:11

Arjun Pandit ji, I have a blog (indospheric.blogspot.com) but I rarely update it nowadays.

However, to share any BRF post on SM you can just get a link to the specific post by clicking the small white rectangle on the top left of the post (just under the title, and to the left of the "by <PosterName>") and copy-paste from your browser URL window. This will work for any post that's not under GDF (which requires registration to read).

For my post with the graphics it is viewtopic.php?p=2184633#p2184633 (you can share this link or condense via bit.ly or other such sites).

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Singha » 14 Jul 2017 21:13

paradoxically, muslims are safest as minorities inside large tolerant non-islamic societies like india, EU and usa.

100% green just leads to intra-green bloodshed once all minorities are either chased out or converted - arabia and north africa. there is always someone greener willing to use violence against lighter shades. a race greenish-black -> to the dark black of ISIS :)

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Karthik S » 14 Jul 2017 21:15

They too know that, that's why you'll see staunch practicing educated muslims trying to go to US, UK etc and not to ME.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Singha » 14 Jul 2017 21:38

any educated muslim from non-oil rich muslim countries (and the educated elite of the oil rich ones) have their sights firmly set on the West/Aus. some are honest about the reasons, some justify abandoning dar-ul-islam saying they are going to spread the faith into new lands and build new communities (that they do)

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby IndraD » 14 Jul 2017 21:53

there is third variety..I know some of them .
These peacefuls go to West. Get passport.
Reverse migrate to ME.
On a plum job since they are peacfuls holding West pp.
They spend entire career life in ME (in places like UAE, Qtr)
They always keep Western pp handy just in case they need to flee to safety.
One such peaceful family in Qtr with Canadian pp was exasperated recetly at thought of going back to Canada sicne they are in late 40s.
In nutshell they want security of West but culture of desert.
They hold West responsible for misrey of ME but would kill for a West pp.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby UlanBatori » 14 Jul 2017 22:11

Rudradev wrote:Here, the actual lethal or potentially lethal violence (culpability for homicide and large-scale destruction of property in the eyes of the LAW) is carried out by only a few individuals... the darkest green ones marked "A".
Around them are a larger number of medium green individuals marked "B". These operatives are abetting the violence... intimidating, blocking escape routes, using (in and of themselves) non-lethal measures like assault with fists/sticks/stones. The point is that in the eyes of the LAW their culpability is LESS than those marked "A".
And surrounding the B individuals are a very large number of light-green Muslims marked "C". These people don't have to do anything at all but stand there, look angry, mill around, and shout slogans.
You can see how the wide belt of C-Muslims is completely protecting the A- and B- Muslims by enveloping them, and acting as a barrier against Security Forces (the khaki squares).
Here is the vital detail. In the eyes of the LAW the C-Muslims are hardly culpable at all. Given the vast burden of precedents from Nehruvian Sickularitis, it would be easy for a lawyer to argue that any C-Muslim who was arrested was only expressing his/her protest over offended religious sentiments. Preamble to the constitution and all that.
However, the C-Muslims are also serving as willing human shields for the A- and B-Muslims. The B-Muslims are serving as willing human shields for A-Muslims as well as abetting the crimes of the A-Muslims. It is only the A-Muslims who are actually committing murder, arson, etc.

If the Security Forces want to get at the A- and B- Muslims they have to use techniques that will harm the C-Muslims.
This key aspect is what is consistently highlighted by the pro-Islamic, anti-Hindu propaganda machinery. Death or injury of C-Muslims will invariably be framed as the State using deadly force to injure or kill ordinary citizens who were simply present to exercise their fundamental right of protest at their religious sentiments being offended.
In the Baduria case, Mamta Bannerji actually argued that nothing was done to stop the mob burning down the house because "if the police had resorted to firing, 200 people would have died".
The very same schema illustrated for Baduria above, applies in J&K to the scenario where DSP M A Pandith was lynched outside the Mosque in Srinagar.
Does the logic of restraint follow a law of diminishing returns?
Is there a case for simply taking out a certain % of C- (and of course B-) Muslims in every such incident? This at least could serve as a deterrent to large numbers of potential candidates who want to come out and act as C-Muslims the next time an incident occurs. It would assure them that involvement in such activity, even if legally unimpeachable and covered by "human rights" propaganda, also amounts to playing a round of "Paki Roulette". Every single time.


EZ.

US law-enforcement would use bullhorns to order the C and B to disperse in an orderly manner and move the cordon close up. Anyone not complying would get arrested and in the process accidentlly bump their nose, eyes etc against polis vehicle door, nightstick, boot or fist.
After 1 minute or so, guns would be fired. Hopefully at the sky or ground, but these days more probably right into the heart of anyone not complying. The story would be created afterwards that they reached into their pocket in a threatening manner etc. Self-defense.

In Kashmir and other terror incidents, there must a presumption that those not obeying orders to run for their lives, must be either (a)terrorists or (b) dead. If not (b) then they will be in short order.
Recent case where a policewoman sitting in a car was shot by an unidentified shooter. "Police swept the neigbhoring areas. A black guy was seen with a gun, and when ordered to stop he ran, And 'pointed his gun at the police' but that is matter of opinion. Fact is, he was killed immediately in fusillade of bullets. To see this one had to read the articles real carefully - it was given no importance at all. Nor to the question whether this was THE guilty guy.

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Re: Amarnath Yatris killed in terror attack. Allahoakbar

Postby Primus » 14 Jul 2017 22:25

^^
The other reason is that once a muslim gets a 'western education' or degree, he is highly desirable to the peacefools, esp in ME where they crave the attention of goras but will be happy with substitutes. BMJ in days of yore used to carry job adverts from the ME that very clearly asked for British degree holders and were happy to take even Indians with such and paid them 2-3 times what a desi from India would get. I know some who are still there after 30 yrs!


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