Maldives Civil-Military Issues

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chetak
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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby chetak » 04 Mar 2018 08:40

Maldives turbulence impacts India’s strategic space



Maldives turbulence impacts India’s strategic space

By JAYADEVA RANADE | 4 March, 2018


Acquisition of Feydhoo Finolhu means a Chinese presence just 75 nautical miles from India’s Exclusive Economic Zone. A radar station there will bring India’s entire western-southern coast within China’s coverage.

At a time of increasing competition for strategic space especially in the Indo-Pacific region, political uncertainty and social instability in the neighbourhood impact India adversely and need to be managed. They require to be viewed from a larger strategic perspective, rather than only from the prism of bilateral relations. In recent months, uncertainties in India’s neighbourhood have increased and highlighted the fragile nature of bilateral relations between India and some of its neighbours. Specifically, the recent political turbulence and social instability in the Indian Ocean archipelago of the Maldives—which is just two and a half hours’ flying distance from India—has threatened India’s strategic space and simultaneously raised potential areas of tension between India and China. China’s reactions to the developments in Maldives reflect this tension.

Triggered by protracted rivalry between Maldives President Abdulla Yameen Abdul Gayoom and his stepbrother and former President, Mohamed Nasheed, matters were precipitated on 5 February, when Yameen promulgated a 15-day emergency. These developments prompted tourists to heed travel advisories and cancel plans. They have severely hurt the Maldives tourist industry, which is the mainstay of its economy, and have longer term implications for the region.

Since its independence in 1966, when India was the first country to recognise it, India and the Maldives have maintained close friendly ties. Long perceived as within India’s sphere of influence, Maldives has sought and received urgent Indian assistance at least twice when in dire need. Pertinent in the current context is the assistance rendered by India in November 1988, when it sent 1,600 troops to successfully thwart an attempt by armed Tamil nationalist guerrillas to take over the country and make it a base for their operations. Maldives’ geostrategic location in the Indian Ocean and near India’s western coastline makes it important for India. India has plans—suspended since February—to set up 10 Coastal Surveillance Radar Systems (CSRS) in the Maldives, as part of its coast guard surveillance grid.

An additional concern is the rapid radicalisation taking place in Maldives despite its prosperity. More than 200 Maldives citizens are estimated to have joined the Islamic State (ISIS), which, in terms of percentage of population is possibly the highest in the world. India does not want neighbouring Maldives to become a haven for Islamic terrorists. In this backdrop, the despatch by Yameen of an envoy to Pakistan is not assuring. Neither is the “protective” veto that China has been extending to Pakistan at the UN Sanctions Committee.

The present political uncertainty in Maldives comes in the midst of India-China tensions caused by China’s attempt last year to unilaterally construct a road through Bhutanese territory in the Doklam plateau in violation of a trilateral agreement signed in 2012. It coincides too with Beijing’s strategic ambitions, which include establishing China’s unchallenged influence in South Asia and especially the countries neighbouring India. Chinese President Xi Jinping’s flagship Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), conservatively valued at an estimated US$ 1.4 trillion project, has given impetus to China’s ambitions.

Beijing has, for the past few years, assiduously wooed and invested in the Maldives, which is important for the maritime component of its BRI. Maldives President Abdulla Yameen Abdul Gayoom, who has a definite pro-Beijing tilt, amended the Constitution in July 2015 to allow foreigners to own land, including investments of over US$1 billion for projects where 70% of the land has been reclaimed. China promptly purchased the uninhabited island of Feydhoo Finolhu, while a Chinese company displaced the Indian company GMR and acquired the international airport on a 50-year lease for US$4 million. Reports say China is trying to buy another island. Acquisition of Feydhoo Finolhu means a Chinese presence just 75 nautical miles from India’s Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ). A radar station there will bring India’s entire western and southern coast within China’s coverage.

In December 2017, Maldives, which has a population of under 420,000, signed a Free Trade Agreement (FTA) with China, allowing it to operate hotels, travel agencies etc in the expectation that it will boost tourist arrivals from approximately 1.5 million per year to 7-8 million. Over 70% of Maldives’ current foreign debt is owed to China on which the loan interest is already more than 20% of Maldives’ budget.

China’s reaction to the crisis reflects its concern of the investment in Maldives being at risk. While China’s Foreign Ministry spokesman said, “China will not interfere in the internal affairs of the Maldives”, its official media adopted a tougher, more strident stance. It indicated that the face-off at Doklam remains an issue. Maldives’ intention of joining the BRI and signing a Free Trade Agreement with China, and Nepal allowing internet access through China’s fibre optic cable, were projected as events that were “a serious humiliation for India in its attempt to dominate South Asia”. The interest of China’s military leadership was discernible in a post of 14 February, on a People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) site. It disclosed that four PLAN warships had participated in a drill and the “warships entered the East Indian Ocean at the time when the situation in Maldives was tense, follow up of the situation was needed”.

Curious and probably not entirely coincidental was the timing at this juncture of the pro-Beijing Nepal Prime Minister K.P. Oli’s remarks calling for a review of the India-Nepal Treaty and questioning the recruitment of Nepalis in Indian Army. The remarks resonate with a suggestion in Nepal’s media in March 2011 that the visiting Chinese General Chen Bingde be conferred the rank of General in the Nepal army, an honour thus far reserved for the Indian Army chief.

An arena of hitherto quiet strategic contest between India and China, who presently have an uneasy relationship, has suddenly become one requiring deft diplomacy and urgent action. India has long had strategic stakes in the Maldives, while China is attempting to acquire dominant influence. Unless effectively countered, China’s moves could diminish India’s immediate strategic space.

Jayadeva Ranade is a former Additional Secretary in the Cabinet Secretariat, Government of India and is presently President of the Centre for China Analysis and Strategy

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby shiv » 04 Mar 2018 14:22

^^Interesting that the author of the above article who laments and beats his breast about the woeful situation that India is in did not even think to mention Coco Island in the Bay of Bengal - with a radar a mere 50 km from our Andaman command.

We are screwed of course.

But someone explain this to me. If you put a radar on an Island at sea level - then what can it see at sea level 500 km away. As per Kookal earth Kanyakumari is 500 + km from this Island.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby Neshant » 04 Mar 2018 18:06

After the 30 day Emergency rule, he will extend it another 30 days.

He won't be able to ever step down from power because if he did, he'd go directly to jail.

Same parallel situation in China where "Emperor" Xi has been jailing/killing his opposition and now is too scared to step down from power.

He has to make himself president for life because if he steps down, his opposition will have a noose waiting for him.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby shiv » 04 Mar 2018 20:13

Here is a radar horizon calculator.
http://members.home.nl/7seas/radcalc.htm

A radar on a sea level Maldives atoll is pretty useless for monitoring the Indian coast which is at the very minimum -500 km away or greater.

Even if the radar is raised 20 meters up (6 stories high) and a ship's upper part visible to radar is 30 meters high it will be seen only from 40 km away.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby Singha » 04 Mar 2018 22:30

er, how about an ELINT post of the type they have in coco island or americans wanted to setup in trincomalee under cover of a voice of america radio ?

maldives while lacking in the infra for a real naval port, has safe anchorage areas - the royal navy ran away from sri lanka when the japanese carrier strikes forces came on a sortie, bombed colombo and trincomalee and left. ... they anchored and hid in the maldives. this was after the repulse and prince of wales was located and sunk in the east by dozens of bombers....so they had neither the carriers or the stomach for a stand up fight.

addu atoll was where they ran to, tails tucked between legs as 5 IJN carriers having much the same air wings as pearl harbour came calling

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Sunday_Raid

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby shiv » 04 Mar 2018 22:40

In fact the Chinese will probably set up an ocean observatory for future submarine operations.

Of course - with 1200 Islands - anyone will be hard put to stop occupation - even Cheenis can't stop a covert Indian force monitoring the Chinese. But mental gulami among the media and mango Indians causes constant dhoti shivering. I would not be surprised if the waters off the Maldives is not peppered with Indian listening and monitoring devices because the Navy does not have to take Mani Shankar Aiyers permission for that

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby chetak » 06 Mar 2018 09:17

A very interesting interview on republic tv by arnab with the IN Chief.

Can't locate the video yet.

It will surely enrage the hans no end.

maybe it was calculated to do so.

A rerun of the same interview may possibly air multiple times even today.


http://www.republicworld.com/india-news/general-news/watch-indian-navy-chief-admiral-sunil-lanba-sends-a-strong-message-to-china

WATCH: Indian Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba Sends A Strong Message To China

Written By Team Republic | Mumbai | Published: March 05, 2018

Indian Navy Chief and Chairman, Chiefs of Staff Committee, Sunil Lanba has sent a strong message to neighbour China

The Navy Chief was speaking to Republic TV's Editor-in-Chief Arnab Goswami on Nation Wants To Know

Watch a preview of the interview here, and the full episode of Nation Wants To Know on Republic TV at 8:00 pm

Indian Navy Chief and Chairman, Chiefs of Staff Committee, Sunil Lanba has sent a strong message to neighbour China in a one-on-one interview with Republic TV’s Editor-in-chief Arnab Goswami on Nation Wants To Know.

Speaking on the Indian Navy’s preparedness to counter China, the Indian Navy Chief said, “India can catch China by the jugular in the Indian Ocean”, adding that "the ball is in the Indian Navy's court in the Indian Ocean" regarding Chinese provocation.

"The numbers in India's favour must be making China nervous", added Admiral Lanba.

The Indian Navy Chief also spoke about the maritime situation that prevailed during the tripartite dispute and standoff between India, China and Bhutan at Doklam. “In the Doklam case, the Navy had made key deployments”, said Admiral Lanba.

Beyond China, the Admiral Lanba also spoke about India’s preparedness to counter Pakistan’s provocations and assured that the “Indian Navy is 100% ready to counter Pakistan”.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby chetak » 06 Mar 2018 16:23

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRfT0NicDhQ


Admiral Sunil Lanba Speaks To Arnab Goswami | Nation Wants To Know




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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby shiv » 07 Mar 2018 10:47


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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby Singha » 07 Mar 2018 10:56

not just advise, why not stop commercial flights from india? if we want to be hands off, let us be totally hands off.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby Rudradev » 07 Mar 2018 13:19

Calibrating the pressure, I would think.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby chetak » 07 Mar 2018 15:35

Singha wrote:not just advise, why not stop commercial flights from india? if we want to be hands off, let us be totally hands off.


There are many other routes for these guys to get to India.

Action must be at the diplomatic and the visa level so that affected people start to speak against the maldives govt and hopefully, that may result in some change of heart.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby shiv » 07 Mar 2018 20:25

Singha wrote:not just advise, why not stop commercial flights from india? if we want to be hands off, let us be totally hands off.

I was looking at the flight schedules into and out of Male. There is only one (or maybe 2) Air India flight, one Spice Jet and a few Air Asia which is not totally Indian. Interestingly there is a Maldivian airline "Maldivian" and the max number of flights are to and from China. So China advising against travel would hit them if the Chinese complied.

Coercing the Maldives may not be of much use because, to repeat - the alternatives to the current man on top may also be equally bad, like Karnataka govt

Only 6% of tourists are from India, 22 odd% from China - rest from Oirope etc.

The Maldivians are trying to make money from a set of sinking Islands. So they are selling Islands to buyers with the demand that 70% of the land be reclaimed. Mainly they are looking for the development of resorts. The Chinese are investing in that - but as I will show in a video coming up - I don't know how far the Chinese will go. They start with a lot of noise and then give up if the money is not there - like any Indian business house.

I was looking for Indian owned hotels and resorts. There are a few - but many many more Indian go to Bali and Thailand. Maldives in general is too expensive with resorts that cost 1 lakh plus a night. What we need is Indian hoteliers and businessmen buying Islands and starting resorts that Indian will fly to. A to and fro trip is now about 15-20 k - very affordable. All that is needed is resorts that cost something like 10-15k for 3 nights - which one can even get as offers in some Taj hotels in India.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby ShauryaT » 07 Mar 2018 21:40

^Can Indians first build on Lakshadweep and Andamans. For the life of me, I have failed to understand, why have we not exploited these natural beauties in an attempt to build local and international tourist traffic and provide some stiff competition to the Maldives, Bali and Mauritius in the wider region.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby chola » 07 Mar 2018 23:05

The Maldivians are trying to make money from a set of sinking Islands. So they are selling Islands to buyers with the demand that 70% of the land be reclaimed.


I have whole series of unhappy thoughts going through my head right now.

The Maldives will be nothing if this global warming trend goes on to flood vast areas of the IOR. Millions will be displaced in the SAARC region.

I am of the mind to just left the chinis deal with these sinking islands and the people on it as well. I don’t want us holding the bag and having to accept all of these muzzies when their damn archaepelogo finally goes under.

But they are nothing compared to the 160 million im Bangladesh which is 80% at or below sea level even today.

We need to figure out how we’ll respond. We can’t be soft. We must insist that the TSP take care of their muzzie brothers. If not, sorry, but you can’t come here.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby Singha » 08 Mar 2018 08:05

countries with vast lands like usa, canada,aus,russia,china must take such climate refugees.
countries with vast money like germany,uk,france,italy,japan also

india has neither vast land or money so we are exempt.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby shiv » 08 Mar 2018 18:38

ShauryaT wrote:^Can Indians first build on Lakshadweep and Andamans. For the life of me, I have failed to understand, why have we not exploited these natural beauties in an attempt to build local and international tourist traffic and provide some stiff competition to the Maldives, Bali and Mauritius in the wider region.

Let me help you understand

The Andamans are volcanic Islands - far apart and subject to monsoons, earthquakes and tsunamis. They are hardly a tourist paradise.

The Lakshadweep Islands cannot be in any way compared to the Maldives - with the latter really being paradise. The Lakshadweep gets severe weather as the monsoon comes and hits the western ghats . The Islands are 30-40 km apart. Compare that with the Maldives - 1200 coral Islands - with water barely -1to10 meters deep in between, situated near the equator - so it is relatively protected from the storms of both the northern and southern hemispheres. No comparison at all.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby ShauryaT » 10 Mar 2018 03:09

shiv wrote:The Andamans are volcanic Islands - far apart and subject to monsoons, earthquakes and tsunamis. They are hardly a tourist paradise.

The Lakshadweep Islands cannot be in any way compared to the Maldives - with the latter really being paradise. The Lakshadweep gets severe weather as the monsoon comes and hits the western ghats. The Islands are 30-40 km apart. Compare that with the Maldives - 1200 coral Islands - with water barely -1to10 meters deep in between, situated near the equator - so it is relatively protected from the storms of both the northern and southern hemispheres. No comparison at all.
Shiv ji: Perfection cannot be the enemy of the good. We can cite the world over locations that are not perfect but attract millions of tourists per year. Hawai volcanic islands are in the middle of nowhere, susceptible to tsunamis and earthquakes. Phuket is right across Nicobar. The number of Caribbean islands that get washed year after year does not dent the regions massive attraction to the US. Lakshadweep may not have 365 days Sun but even poor Goa (comparable natural beauty) gets more tourists and it is due to one big reason. Infrastructure. Driving through my third world state of MH on NH 17 and entering Goa is a relief that one has to experience :(

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby KL Dubey » 10 Mar 2018 07:39

ShauryaT wrote:We can cite the world over locations that are not perfect but attract millions of tourists per year. Hawai volcanic islands are in the middle of nowhere, susceptible to tsunamis and earthquakes.


Total agreement. The goremint really needs to ramp up tourism in our Indian Ocean archipelagos.

Did you know that Indeerah Gaandee planned to abandon the A&N islands ?

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby Singha » 10 Mar 2018 08:52

>>Phuket is right across Nicobar.
I have been there. indeed its the opposite shore of andamans , featuring the same kind of water, reefs, volcanic hills and attracts huge tourism and revenue.

phang nga bay near phuket -- see no beaches in most of it, but the boat tour day long is a must for tourists.
http://true-beachfront.com/media/cache/ ... 55887b.jpg

another wooded volcanic place is langkawi which again i have been to....great roads, neat areas .... the farm a ton of shrimp in captive mode there.

its similar to arunachal case, kept in magnificent poverty and isolation instead of using tourism to develop the infra is a circle of investment

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby shiv » 10 Mar 2018 09:13

ShauryaT wrote:Shiv ji: Perfection cannot be the enemy of the good. We can cite the world over locations that are not perfect but attract millions of tourists per year. Hawai volcanic islands are in the middle of nowhere, susceptible to tsunamis and earthquakes. Phuket is right across Nicobar. The number of Caribbean islands that get washed year after year does not dent the regions massive attraction to the US. Lakshadweep may not have 365 days Sun but even poor Goa (comparable natural beauty) gets more tourists and it is due to one big reason. Infrastructure. Driving through my third world state of MH on NH 17 and entering Goa is a relief that one has to experience :(

Hmm - you've opened some new doors in my mind.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby Dipanker » 10 Mar 2018 09:40

KL Dubey wrote:Did you know that Indeerah Gaandee planned to abandon the A&N islands ?


Never heard of it, this sounds like a RSS Madrasah propagandu.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby Neshant » 10 Mar 2018 12:20

chola wrote:I have whole series of unhappy thoughts going through my head right now.

The Maldives will be nothing if this global warming trend goes on to flood vast areas of the IOR. Millions will be displaced in the SAARC region.

I am of the mind to just left the chinis deal with these sinking islands and the people on it as well. I don’t want us holding the bag and having to accept all of these muzzies when their damn archaepelogo finally goes under.

But they are nothing compared to the 160 million im Bangladesh which is 80% at or below sea level even today.

We need to figure out how we’ll respond. We can’t be soft. We must insist that the TSP take care of their muzzie brothers. If not, sorry, but you can’t come here.



I notice Saudi Arabia does not take any muslim refugees.

But they sure are quick to fund the building of mosques all over those countries

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby chetak » 10 Mar 2018 13:23

shiv wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:^Can Indians first build on Lakshadweep and Andamans. For the life of me, I have failed to understand, why have we not exploited these natural beauties in an attempt to build local and international tourist traffic and provide some stiff competition to the Maldives, Bali and Mauritius in the wider region.

Let me help you understand

The Andamans are volcanic Islands - far apart and subject to monsoons, earthquakes and tsunamis. They are hardly a tourist paradise.

The Lakshadweep Islands cannot be in any way compared to the Maldives - with the latter really being paradise. The Lakshadweep gets severe weather as the monsoon comes and hits the western ghats . The Islands are 30-40 km apart. Compare that with the Maldives - 1200 coral Islands - with water barely -1to10 meters deep in between, situated near the equator - so it is relatively protected from the storms of both the northern and southern hemispheres. No comparison at all.


There are also many places that are officially no go for Indians as well as foreigners. Infrastructure is not always the issue.

There are some really old indigenous tribes there that need to be protected and the govt seems to be doing that by restricting entry and they are well justified. These indigenous peoples are also a dwindling population and their way of life seems to be important to them.

There are plenty of corals in these islands that are rapidly being plundered by our "business minded tourists", and this is an ecological disaster.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby ShauryaT » 10 Mar 2018 23:45

chetak wrote:There are also many places that are officially no go for Indians as well as foreigners. Infrastructure is not always the issue.

There are some really old indigenous tribes there that need to be protected and the govt seems to be doing that by restricting entry and they are well justified. These indigenous peoples are also a dwindling population and their way of life seems to be important to them.

There are plenty of corals in these islands that are rapidly being plundered by our "business minded tourists", and this is an ecological disaster.
Yes, why do we not put a fence around them and make these almost naked species sit in observation parks, these "original" tribes, let us watch them as we do wild animals! So exotic, they eat ants and reptiles and are soooo Pagan, they worship trees and birds!! Sorry, that did not come across well.

This attitude of the government to keep things original by not letting things develop is a colonial attitude. If the tribes deem something worth preserving they can do so and accept change at their own pace. These places strive for good investment, education, health and opportunity in their communities like any other. Chattisgarh and Jharkhand regions were not developed using similar arguments but now they seek to compete like any other. Fact is the mainland does not have any Coral beaches or water activities which require clarity of water and shallow depths. The silt from the 100's of rivers and tributaries and deltas does not make it possible, except for a very small region near Kutch, but even here I am stretching. Indian tourists alone can make a difference to these regions and both can benefit. I personally like diving as an activity and hence have looked into this issue. There are some small islands off the Karnataka coast but they do not come close to the ideal diving conditions, Coral or Volcanic islands can provide. I mean look at the beaches of Lakshadweep, I promise you they rival the best in the world. Trust the locals to know what is best for them. They will build systems to protect, what is in their interest. For long, it was thought that building tourist resorts in Lakshdweep will offend the Muslim locals and hence limited to only one island. Now the locals are demanding that ALL islands be opened to tourism. This paternalistic attitude has to stop.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby chetak » 11 Mar 2018 09:36

ShauryaT wrote:
chetak wrote:There are also many places that are officially no go for Indians as well as foreigners. Infrastructure is not always the issue.

There are some really old indigenous tribes there that need to be protected and the govt seems to be doing that by restricting entry and they are well justified. These indigenous peoples are also a dwindling population and their way of life seems to be important to them.

There are plenty of corals in these islands that are rapidly being plundered by our "business minded tourists", and this is an ecological disaster.
Yes, why do we not put a fence around them and make these almost naked species sit in observation parks, these "original" tribes, let us watch them as we do wild animals! So exotic, they eat ants and reptiles and are soooo Pagan, they worship trees and birds!! Sorry, that did not come across well.

This attitude of the government to keep things original by not letting things develop is a colonial attitude. If the tribes deem something worth preserving they can do so and accept change at their own pace. These places strive for good investment, education, health and opportunity in their communities like any other. Chattisgarh and Jharkhand regions were not developed using similar arguments but now they seek to compete like any other. Fact is the mainland does not have any Coral beaches or water activities which require clarity of water and shallow depths. The silt from the 100's of rivers and tributaries and deltas does not make it possible, except for a very small region near Kutch, but even here I am stretching. Indian tourists alone can make a difference to these regions and both can benefit. I personally like diving as an activity and hence have looked into this issue. There are some small islands off the Karnataka coast but they do not come close to the ideal diving conditions, Coral or Volcanic islands can provide. I mean look at the beaches of Lakshadweep, I promise you they rival the best in the world. Trust the locals to know what is best for them. They will build systems to protect, what is in their interest. For long, it was thought that building tourist resorts in Lakshdweep will offend the Muslim locals and hence limited to only one island. Now the locals are demanding that ALL islands be opened to tourism. This paternalistic attitude has to stop.



the 'people" of lakshadweep are khattarpanthi and and quite vocally so.

The times we visited this "island paradise", it made me sick to my stomach.

The mainland provides everything here and yet they return only hatred. it is the next cashmere, when it flares up.

There is blatant interference of foreign players in lakshadweep. For many years mysterious ships would visit these islands clandestinely. I have not kept up with happenings on these islands for quite some time now but there is the definite presence of entities that keep close watch to ensure that our interests are not compromised.

The tribes in andamans are unique in the world. They are innocents in every sense of the term and need to be protected.

If possible, it may be best to separate the military, tourist and tribal spaces in these andaman islands.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby schinnas » 11 Mar 2018 10:00

It shouldn't be difficult to develop some of the large islands in lakshadweep as snorkeling and scuba diving destinations with resorts and importing the whole staff from mainland. Shouldn't be difficult to change the population profile of these tiny islands.

Regarding some of the islands bring far from each other, we can take lessons from Thailand - how they promote tourism to picturesque islands that are 40 to 80kms away from main island of Phucket.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby shiv » 11 Mar 2018 11:04

I think this thread is going OT

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby pankajs » 14 Mar 2018 16:26

Maldives government is mocking India again ... It knows that blather Xina is the big dong in the IOR. We need to be extra extra cautious with Maldives now do some more dhoti shivering.

https://www.news18.com/news/india/india ... 88179.html
India is Big Brother in Region, Not China, Asserts Maldives
Male: Asserting its 'India First' policy, the Maldivian government on Tuesday claimed that as far as it was concerned, India is its big brother in Asia.

We have an India first policy and we believe that India is the big brother in the region, not China,” said Mohammed Shainee, Minister of Fisheries and Agriculture. She is also the chairperson of the all-party talks committee. [This single statement sent me scurrying to my dark corner. What if Xina fired some LACM at Dilli in rage??]

The statement was made in the presence of other senior Maldivian ministers, including Mohamed Saeed who is the Minister of Economics development, Aishath Azima Shakoor who is the Minister of Legal Affairs, and Moosa Zameer, the Minister of tourism.

The statements were made in the President's office in the capital Male in the first international press conference hosted by the island nation this year.

India will always be our best friend. India need not be threatened by Maldives,” Shainee said. [There goes the rest of my face i.e. whatever remained after Xina Navy forced India from intervening... now Maldives too is mocking us. My dhoti is seconds away from unraveled because of shivering.]

The ministers claimed that Maldives was concerned about China only when it came to Chinese investments in the island nation. Commenting on the alleged debt trap with regards to the One Belt One Road (OBOR) initiative, the ministers said it was absolutely certain that there would be no such trap and that it would pay back every penny with the revenue it earns from the investment.

Shainee also tried to allay concerns about Chinese militarisation of Maldives, claiming that "no matter what anybody says or suggests" Maldives will not be militarised and that nobody should be worried about it. [Now I am cringing and bent over in my dark corner with my backside up in the air waiting for the inevitable kick.]

As far the ongoing emergency was concerned, the minister of legal affairs, Shakoor, said that it will not be extended beyond March 23.

The Maldivian government imposed emergency on February 5 for 15 days, and extended it by 30 days on February 20. The emergency gives security forces in the island nation wide-ranging powers to arrest suspected opposition members, prohibit public gatherings and impose travel restrictions. India, China, the US, the UK and Australia are among the countries that have issued travel advisories warning against non-essential travel to the islands.

India has been particularly concerned about developments in Maldives because China is looking to occupy India's place in being the primary player and associate of the tiny Island country. India had three decades ago militarily intervened and ended a coup restoring democracy in the country.

Both India and China have been keenly following the developments in Maldives for the past few weeks. While China has invested millions of dollars in the country through its OBOR projects, India is looking not to lose its strategic grip in the area. Tensions between both countries have risen since emergency was imposed in the state and both countries are said to have put their warships in standby mode.

Disclaimer: Author is in Male on the invitation of Maldives government.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby uddu » 14 Mar 2018 16:49

Once they have mentioned Kashmir, i think it's time to whack them with the same, asking them to conduct free and fair elections and be like India as they mentioned. Go in for the kill.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby Gagan » 15 Mar 2018 03:23

shiv wrote:The Andamans are volcanic Islands - far apart and subject to monsoons, earthquakes and tsunamis. They are hardly a tourist paradise.

The Lakshadweep Islands cannot be in any way compared to the Maldives - with the latter really being paradise. The Lakshadweep gets severe weather as the monsoon comes and hits the western ghats . The Islands are 30-40 km apart. Compare that with the Maldives - 1200 coral Islands - with water barely -1to10 meters deep in between, situated near the equator - so it is relatively protected from the storms of both the northern and southern hemispheres. No comparison at all.

OT but, the Andamans and Nicobars are Beautiful, very peaceful and have really great weather.
It rains a lot, but once it rains, it clears up quickly and becomes dry very quickly too!

The forests are dense once you step out of port blair. The beaches are beautiful, with crystal clear water, and a rich coral reef around the islands.
Even back in the 80's there were plenty of western foreign tourists.
Tourism hasn't exploded because getting to the Islands was problematic back in the 80s and 90s with a flight from Calcutta and Madras (Back in those days), only two days a week. A ship from either of the two cities would dock every week or so. The sea trip was 4 days, 3-4 nights long.
IMHO, the tourism potential is bigger than any other area in India, bigger than Goa as well !
There are mutiple islands, each with their own history.
I suspect, that back in the 80s and 90s, GoI didn't want overt commercialization, as all the Govt employees were talking about preserving the A&N history and flora/fauna and preventing an onslaught of visitors. Because it is a union territory, with linkages to Chennai / Tamilnadu and Kolkata / WB, the news in those areas is followed closely. Not much political activity goes on, very peaceful, no communal issues ever.
The IN and the triservices command are omnipresent

Lakshadweep and Maldives are similar.
While Maldives has gone ahead and developed a world renowned tourist industry, GoI's ham handedness and putting road blocks on every venture has killed the tourist potential. GoI just can't stop looking at both Lakshadweep and A&N from the military / security POV.

Its a shame...

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby Philip » 15 Mar 2018 04:04

And who has tutored them to usd the "K" card, that too in the weakesf poss. excuse of the demolition of democracy in the country? No prizes for the right answer.I am truly astonished at the lack of killer instinct in this NDA regime.The entire free world was watching and waiting for us to sort out a rogue state supplying manpower to ISIS and wanting to sell their land to the Chins! But what did the shivering kurta- pyjama crowd of Lutyens Bagh do? F- all for two weeks.It was then that the Chins realised that the "Delhi Durbar" has no ghoolies and sent a small flotilla to sniff the IOR ozone off Indonesia.That was sufficient.
The DD appears to have panicked rushing around like headless ostriches looking for their heads to stick in the ground!

Now the piddly little tadpole's minions are telling India to "eff-off"! They don't even need China or Pak to bat on their behalf.One foreign policy debacle follows another.From the supine UPA throwing away Hambantota to the Chinz and now the entire Maldives to them is such a monstrous act of impotence by our MEA that the need for a bulldozer to sweep away a decade+ of cowardice is required.Mere spring cleaning is inadequate.Men and women of steel must take over, to replace the " butter paneer" crowd, who tremble at the dragon and are clueless against Pak.The decade of defeatism has to end.

I have slender hope though as the results of the by- elections will put the ruling party on the defensive and have it concentrate on winning 2019 ignoring the detrimental events in our backyard neighbourhood , further endangering our national security and diminishing our domination of the IOR.

The armed forces are not meant for R- Day parades, naval reviews and international maritime jamborees, air displays and joy rides for VIPs.They are the cutting edge of diplomacy, the threat of using force to defend our vital interests and prevent external forces , especially those of our mortal enemies from squatting in our backyard.And when India's interests are gravely threatened they must be sent to secure our interests.The advisers of the current dispensation have failed their masters miserably in this instance, endangering their own reputation as strong leaders who are afraid of threats from no foreign power Our impotence on display in the Maldives will come to haunt the nation in the future unless the situ is addressed at the earliest and in full measure.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby Dipanker » 15 Mar 2018 06:10

chetak wrote:
The tribes in andamans are unique in the world. They are innocents in every sense of the term and need to be protected.

If possible, it may be best to separate the military, tourist and tribal spaces in these andaman islands.


Tribal population of A&N islands are in terminal decline and headed for extinction. From the highs of over 7000+ they are down to around 500. Contact with the outside world has lead to transmission of communicable diseases thus greatly reducing their population. The Sentinelese of the Sentinel island are still completely isolated and do not welcome any outside human contact and threaten violence to anything approaching their islands. They are estimated over 200 of them. The Jarawas too practiced complete isolation till 1996, but once they established contact a good number of them perished by contacting measles and such diseases. There are estimated over 100 of them left now. The rest couple of hundred of them are Andamanese, Onges, etc. with some of the tribes already extinct.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby chetak » 15 Mar 2018 09:36

Gagan wrote:
shiv wrote:The Andamans are volcanic Islands - far apart and subject to monsoons, earthquakes and tsunamis. They are hardly a tourist paradise.

The Lakshadweep Islands cannot be in any way compared to the Maldives - with the latter really being paradise. The Lakshadweep gets severe weather as the monsoon comes and hits the western ghats . The Islands are 30-40 km apart. Compare that with the Maldives - 1200 coral Islands - with water barely -1to10 meters deep in between, situated near the equator - so it is relatively protected from the storms of both the northern and southern hemispheres. No comparison at all.

OT but, the Andamans and Nicobars are Beautiful, very peaceful and have really great weather.
It rains a lot, but once it rains, it clears up quickly and becomes dry very quickly too!

The forests are dense once you step out of port blair. The beaches are beautiful, with crystal clear water, and a rich coral reef around the islands.
Even back in the 80's there were plenty of western foreign tourists.
Tourism hasn't exploded because getting to the Islands was problematic back in the 80s and 90s with a flight from Calcutta and Madras (Back in those days), only two days a week. A ship from either of the two cities would dock every week or so. The sea trip was 4 days, 3-4 nights long.
IMHO, the tourism potential is bigger than any other area in India, bigger than Goa as well !
There are mutiple islands, each with their own history.
I suspect, that back in the 80s and 90s, GoI didn't want overt commercialization, as all the Govt employees were talking about preserving the A&N history and flora/fauna and preventing an onslaught of visitors. Because it is a union territory, with linkages to Chennai / Tamilnadu and Kolkata / WB, the news in those areas is followed closely. Not much political activity goes on, very peaceful, no communal issues ever.
The IN and the triservices command are omnipresent

Lakshadweep and Maldives are similar.
While Maldives has gone ahead and developed a world renowned tourist industry, GoI's ham handedness and putting road blocks on every venture has killed the tourist potential. GoI just can't stop looking at both Lakshadweep and A&N from the military / security POV.

Its a shame...


There is a considerable beedi influx and has been there for years.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby shiv » 15 Mar 2018 10:00

This thread continues to stay off topic.

Comparing Lakshadweep and the Maldives is IMO a no contest. Lakshadweep are just 32 Islands about 30 sq km. Maldives are 1200 islands - 300 sq km. Much more sea and sand.

Andamans is much bigger and has 500 Islands - but since the topic is not dying down let me state what I have felt (wrong or right) for many decades. The idea of going to the seaside for a bit of sun is a Europe inspired idea (North Europe has no sun most of the year) carried over onto north America. Indian ideas of tourism traditionally was holy pilgrimages. The Indian tourism industry has tried to push palaces, wildlife and history over beach tourism - other than Goa. The average gora who is looking for sun and sand gets it from places where they have tapped into the full potential of sun and sand in Thailand and the Maldives.

People may not like what I say but in India women sunning themselves - especially if they have white skin attracts gawkers. India has no anti-gawking laws - and that is a big put off for beach tourism in most places. Maldives offers hundreds of Islands of privacy that India can try and compete with - but our tourism ministry is also populated by gawkers and moralists - so beach tourism is not going anywhere soon. One can build private resorts - but then India's super- rich - who are also gawkers occupy those resorts. You can't have a country where women are covered up offering places for people to be uncovered and keep out nosey gawkers

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby pravula » 15 Mar 2018 10:08

shiv wrote:India has no anti-gawking laws


To clarify, in US, it is perfectly legal to not just gawk, but to take as many pictures or videos you like in public places. There is NO expectation of privacy in public spaces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_of_privacy

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby Pulikeshi » 15 Mar 2018 11:42

shiv wrote: Indian ideas of tourism traditionally was holy pilgrimages. The Indian tourism industry has tried to push palaces, wildlife and history over beach tourism - other than Goa.


Why can’t India put some holy places in Maldives?

May seem like a silly question, but instead of teaching the arrack drinking native the perfection of wine, why not offer good arrack?
(To bustardize an analogy :mrgreen: )
Seriously... if India has to be safe, its perifery cannot be run amok by loons!
Perhaps several “swayambhuva” temples, meditation and Yoga centers in all India’s neighbors is a start....

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby shiv » 15 Mar 2018 14:07

pravula wrote:
shiv wrote:India has no anti-gawking laws


To clarify, in US, it is perfectly legal to not just gawk, but to take as many pictures or videos you like in public places. There is NO expectation of privacy in public spaces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_of_privacy

Ah Congratulations! You are the 10,000 th person to give this ignorant Indian a lesson about the US

But we are talking about India where the attitude is exactly the same - do not expect privacy, but in addition to that there is an expectation that certain things should be kept private unless the person wants to invite a crowd of gawkers hanging around. Skin exposure as in bikini is taken as an invitation for a crowd to collect and gawk and I can't understand why people seem to dislike that. After all gawking is normal and legal no? Maybe in America people like crowds to collect around a woman in a bikini to gawk? Doesn't appear to be the case in India. That would be lesson about USA no 10,001 for me if someone could answer that one..

And since no one seems to be bothered about the title of this thread we can continue to discuss beach tourism on here.

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby shiv » 15 Mar 2018 14:10

Pulikeshi wrote:
Why can’t India put some holy places in Maldives?

May seem like a silly question, but

Not silly - but this is exactly what I suggested - I did not say "put holy places in the Maldives" but I did say that private Indian entities could buy up Islands and make Indian friendly resorts. That is where the thread got derailed by someone asking why not develop Lakshadweep and the Andamans. That is where we are now...

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Re: Maldives Civil-Military Issues

Postby Philip » 15 Mar 2018 17:05

Shiv,the problem is that ANY GOI never,ever,supports Indian biz,unless they are closet cronies who act as benamis for them.Unlike the Japanese,I'm sure Chinese and others,their embassies have spl. officials to promote trade from their country and offer max help to their businessmen and corporate entities trying to strike deals. In the Maldives,the best known Indian deal was GMR for the airport,but what happened when the Maldivians handed it over to the Chins? We protested,but not strongly enough for the deal to stay. That was the moment when a flotilla of warships should've been sent to the tinpot despot ass a severe signal not to try our patience. In contrast look at what happened in the aftermath of the Bhopal disaster and the ENRON fiasco. Both walked away laughing. Maldives again.What happened when they had a water shortage? We rushed water to them! India taken for granted time and time again.

Indian embassies and HCs -do they look after the human rights of Indian nationals abroad? What about the Indian slave labour in the Gulf? We happily turn a blind eye to the blood stained dollars,dinars,etc.,that come in as expat earnings.Of course when the sh*t hits the fan,and evacuations large scale have to be done we act,but that's mainly becos of the political storm at home if we don't!

The hard truth is that we have no iron in our bellies establishment wise.It's always chalta hai. I watched the full Putin interview .He made a telling statement that no one would reach the top levels in Russia unless they were fit for the job.They were carefully chosen he said, in a counter that officials could act on their own irresponsibly,alluding to the US hacking allegations. The MEA will fail time and again unless it involves the services in drawing up our national goals and key interests. Otherwise it will be like Nehruvian diplomacy,all bluff and bluster,hot air that even a tiny dot in the ocean the Maldives does not take seriously.There are now so many think tanks on security,foreign affairs,etc.,etc., being funded by Indian biz interests and others,which one supposes gives the GOI good advice.but the end result is always the same.India comes off second best. The extradition of a geriatric D co. crony is good work but it is a grain of sand on the beach. Indian diplomacy will be successful only when our neighbours refrain from anti-Indian policies and inviting external forces inimical to India to squat on their territory.Nepal,Pak, Burma,Sri Lanka the Maldives have all turned to China.
We're now running to Paris for logistic agreements with the French,an external force,when we could've easily had similar arrangements with our neighbours,especially when we've come to their aid repeatedly in times of disaster as in Sri Lanka after the Asian Tsunami.
Some gleeful "experts" are now imagining India showing the flag in the French controlled Pacific islands,forgetting that much closer to home we've tucked our tail between our legs!


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