Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby NRao » 19 Jun 2019 01:50

Prasad wrote:Huawei is backed by the state. And can undercut anybody in any bidding war. That is the issue.


Huawei is the core for a package being sold, including a political component(see the authoritarian system can coexist with market economies)(I have a bridge to sell). China is encouraging political change across the globe. This 5G is only a facade.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 19 Jun 2019 15:58

Hundreds of Chinese and Bangladeshi labourers in deadly clashes at Beijing-backed power plant near Dhaka - SCMP
Hundreds of Chinese and Bangladeshi labourers clashed at the site of a power plant being built south of Dhaka, police said on Wednesday, leaving a Chinese worker dead and more than a dozen others injured.

Police said the violence was triggered by the death of a Bangladeshi worker at the site of the China-funded 1,320-megawatt plant, prompting locals to accuse the Chinese of trying to cover up the incident.

At one point, hundreds of Bangladeshi and Chinese workers were fighting at the site – about 200km south of the capital – and more than a dozen were injured, including six Chinese who were taken to hospital.

“One of the Chinese workers later died in the hospital. He had injuries to his head,” local police chief Monirul Islam said, adding it took more than 1,000 police to restore calm.


China is a close ally of Bangladesh, and Chinese state-run and private firms have invested billions of dollars in the South Asian country’s infrastructure projects – mostly in power, energy and transport sectors.

The presence of large numbers of Chinese workers in Bangladesh, as in other countries where Beijing is investing heavily, has caused some tensions with locals, and officials said similar clashes occurred a year ago.

Police said more than 6,000 people – including some 2,000 from China – work at the power plant site.

Regional administrator Ram Chandra Das said authorities have ordered a probe into the incident.

“The situation is now calm,” he said, adding no arrests had been made.

In April 2016, four people were killed after police opened fire on villagers protesting against the construction of two China-backed power plants in southeastern Bangladesh.

In October that year Chinese President Xi Jinping made a historic visit to Bangladesh and the two countries signed US$20 billion worth of loan agreements.

The latest clashes occurred just weeks before Bangladesh Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina is to visit Beijing.

China’s investments in Bangladesh are part of Xi’s signature Belt and Road Initiative, a sweeping trillion-dollar infrastructure programme across Asia, Africa and Europe that is viewed with suspicion in the West.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 19 Jun 2019 16:07

‘I have heard you loud and clear,’ Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam tells city in ‘most sincere’ apology - SCMP
“I have heard you loud and clear, and have reflected deeply on all that has transpired … I personally have to shoulder much of the responsibility, . . . This has led to controversies, disputes and anxieties in society. For this I offer my most sincere apology to all people of Hong Kong. The difficulty lies now perhaps not in the matter of ability or competence, but in the trust amongst the people of Hong Kong. Myself and my team will try our very best to rebuild that trust so that we can continue to implement these social and economic policies. I have to emphasise that the deficiencies lie in my less than adequate judgment of the sensitivity of the subject matter and the handling of the process. To those young people who participated peacefully [in protests] to express their views, let me say I understand you expect your chief executive to listen to different voices … this incident has made me realise, as the chief executive, I’ve still got much to learn."

However, she again rejected calls to scrap rather than suspend the bill, which would allow the transfer of suspects to mainland China and other jurisdictions with which the city has no extradition deal.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 Jun 2019 16:08

ramana wrote:I saw a WSJ report today that Huawei will suffer loss of $32B from US markets this year.


i think you meant this
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-clampdown-to-cost-huawei-30-billion-in-revenue-founder-says-11560766359

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby kit » 19 Jun 2019 17:16

NRao wrote:
Prasad wrote:Huawei is backed by the state. And can undercut anybody in any bidding war. That is the issue.


Huawei is the core for a package being sold, including a political component(see the authoritarian system can coexist with market economies)(I have a bridge to sell). China is encouraging political change across the globe. This 5G is only a facade.


looks increasingly like a clash of civilisations !!

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby NRao » 19 Jun 2019 19:09

kit wrote:
NRao wrote:
Huawei is the core for a package being sold, including a political component(see the authoritarian system can coexist with market economies)(I have a bridge to sell). China is encouraging political change across the globe. This 5G is only a facade.


looks increasingly like a clash of civilisations !!


I happen to think that China has played her cards very well. It is a clash of civilizations. But, one that is disguised as an innocent offer to provide economic assistance to a cheated nation.

China is offering the complete package. Not just roads and power plants. They are offering complete kitted systems to compete with Amazon, Google, Tesla and soon perhaps even SpaceX.

To make matters laughable, they have made Wall Street the vehicle for their Western success!!! Wall Street publishes glossies based on numbers provided by Chinese companies that are more than likely failing, for all we know, but have no legal or otherwise reasons to open their books. They can compete with anyone, but we cannot compete with them, their companies being protected. And Winnie the Pooh dances into town with a $30 billion soft loan..................

Today the Pooh is only taking over sleepy ports. Wait and watch the crap hit the fan when the Pooh silently orders a block from Africa or South America to vote in a certain pattern at the UN. Something like no US carrier can fly South of the 45 parallel, something crazy like that.

Follow what they are promising Mexico. And, if it works there expect them to partner with Russia to gather up every nation South of there.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chola » 20 Jun 2019 00:00

NRao wrote:
Wall Street publishes glossies based on numbers provided by Chinese companies that are more than likely failing, for all we know, but have no legal or otherwise reasons to open their books. They can compete with anyone, but we cannot compete with them, their companies being protected. And Winnie the Pooh dances into town with a $30 billion soft loan..................



If the numbers were not there then they would have never gotten off the ground. You can't protect money-losing corporations without having money on hand to protect them with.

That is the thing with money is you can't really fake it. You either have it or you don't. If you have it then you can give a $30B loan. If you don't then you need to take a $30B loan.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby A_Gupta » 20 Jun 2019 01:27

http://en.people.cn/n3/2019/0619/c90000-9589466.html
America's most radical anti-China politician rears his ugly head
By Curtis Stone (People's Daily Online) 10:24, June 19, 2019

According to Reuters, Marco Rubio, one of America's most radical anti-China politicians, filed legislation on Monday that would prevent Huawei from seeking damages in US patent courts.

The move shocked many netizens, both in China and US and the rest of the world, who exclaim that the “patriotic thief”—someone who seems to be a patriot, but actually is doing nothing good for the country, even selling out the country—in the US Congress is making the US behave like a rogue on the world stage.

Rubio, along with the hypocrites who accuse China of intellectual property theft in the US, apply a double standard to Huawei and its more than 50,000 patents, and then turn around and insult Huawei, calling the Chinese tech giant a “patent troll.”

“Huawei has become a patent troll,” Rubio tweeted last week in response to a Wall Street Journal report that said Huawei wants Verizon to pay licensing fees for its patents. “This is an attempt by them to retaliate against the US by setting the stage for baseless, but costly, patent claims.”

Although many people frequently dismiss his remarks, many Americans in the scientific community agree that Huawei can demand patent fees from US companies.

According to the report, Rubio filed the measure as an amendment to the annual US National Defense Authorization Act, prohibiting Chinese companies on certain US government watch lists, which would include Huawei, from being allowed to seek relief under US law with respect to US patents, even if Huawei’s patent rights are infringed by US companies. Rubio also wants to prohibit US courts from accepting these cases.
Last edited by A_Gupta on 20 Jun 2019 01:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby A_Gupta » 20 Jun 2019 01:29

China People's Daily is the Chinese Communist Party's news organ. This and the previous are from there.

http://en.people.cn/n3/2019/0619/c90000-9589564.html

The root cause for the China-U.S. trade war is not China's high-profile publicity, but the U.S. ambition to elevate the so-called "America First" strategy above international justice.

Those who attributed the cause of the trade war to Amazing China have two problem mindsets. On the one hand, they don't believe China can achieve as the Americans do. On the other hand, they think China shouldn't succeed as it may challenge the position of the U.S. They admire and fear the U.S. at the same time.

However, we have every reason to doubt them.

Is it a fact that China, an enormous economy, has achieved remarkable progress with its efforts and historic opportunities?

Is it wrong for China to praise itself when Chinese people witness such progress after the past "empire" endured years of torture at the hands of western powers?

The pressure exerted by the U.S. over the last year ignited the courage of Chinese society. China does not want a trade war, but it is not afraid of one, and it will fight one if necessary. Such an attitude reflects China's resolution and adherence to justice. The country's composed countermeasures were also hailed by its people who genuinely believe that their country is fantastic.

As Mao Zedong said a few decades ago when summing up the War to Resist U.S. Aggression and Aid Korea, "There is nothing to fear about U.S. imperialism. It is just a thing. We have gained this experience, this amazing experience." He then pointed out: "The Chinese people are well organized now, and no one can bully China. If anyone offends China, there will be trouble."

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby hanumadu » 20 Jun 2019 01:50

If America really wan'ts to shut down Huawei, why cant it do what it did to ZTE? Stop the supply of components to Huawei. In fact, it could kill all chinese electronic manufacturing in one go if it stops supply of components to them. While at it, also stop supply of semiconductor plants.

All this to and fro shadow boxing is getting tiresome. They should simply go for broke.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby kit » 20 Jun 2019 02:02

hanumadu wrote:If America really wan'ts to shut down Huawei, why cant it do what it did to ZTE? Stop the supply of components to Huawei. In fact, it could kill all chinese electronic manufacturing in one go if it stops supply of components to them. While at it, also stop supply of semiconductor plants.

All this to and fro shadow boxing is getting tiresome. They should simply go for broke.


thats a very naive comment.. America cant do a zte to Huawei without really hurting their own companies as well facing a rolling avalanche in their direction.

bright side , south east asia and esp India will benefit bigtime esp if they play the right cards.

For starters I want America to really sanction India for the S400 deal with Russia, makes thing a tad bit easier !!
Could be a pain in the short term but will work wonders long term.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby A_Gupta » 20 Jun 2019 02:04

^^^ They have stopped the supply of components to Huawei.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/201 ... ive-order/
...."the Commerce Department said it had added Huawei and 70 affiliates to its so-called Entity List—a move that bans the telecom giant from buying parts and components from US companies without US government approval," Reuters also wrote.



PS: Aamir Khan on India-China ties:
http://en.people.cn/n3/2019/0517/c90000-9579195.html

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2019 02:58

chola wrote:
NRao wrote:
Wall Street publishes glossies based on numbers provided by Chinese companies that are more than likely failing, for all we know, but have no legal or otherwise reasons to open their books. They can compete with anyone, but we cannot compete with them, their companies being protected. And Winnie the Pooh dances into town with a $30 billion soft loan..................



If the numbers were not there then they would have never gotten off the ground. You can't protect money-losing corporations without having money on hand to protect them with.

That is the thing with money is you can't really fake it. You either have it or you don't. If you have it then you can give a $30B loan. If you don't then you need to take a $30B loan.


There are two threads here:

1) WRT "corporations", yes, I cannot, but, the Pooh can. He has built entire urban areas that are not occupied.

However, that is not the problem. China should, or at least Wall Street must insist, on letting the books be checked. After all, these are traded entities.

2) The $30 billion - a national responsibility (not that of a corporation/s), yes, that has to be there. But there are ways around it too. Right?



Anyways, IMHO, the time to analyze is long gone. It is not even time to slap tariffs (IMVVVHO). Time to sit and make 5G chips. Let us compete.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2019 03:10

hanumadu wrote:If America really wan'ts to shut down Huawei, why cant it do what it did to ZTE? Stop the supply of components to Huawei. In fact, it could kill all chinese electronic manufacturing in one go if it stops supply of components to them. While at it, also stop supply of semiconductor plants.

All this to and fro shadow boxing is getting tiresome. They should simply go for broke.


Huawei has always been a part of a larger Chinese game plan - to dominate the world without firing a bullet. There are a handful of other companies that are part of this game plan. And, we all know China has been trying to make everything China-centric - banking, etc. So, this strategy is not a surprise.

So, unlike ZTE, Huawei "seems" better prepared. Huawei does seem to have had plans to make all their components within China. Just that this event has come a little too early for them. To that end, Huawei has accelerated their effort, some reports claim they are on a 24-hour, round the clock, effort to beat Trump. The chances are the Gov of China will foot that bill. So, in a few years, we can expect them to rise again. And, this company being part of the core cannot be let go - their MEA has already said that and has also gathered all the imp US companies (Google, MS, etc) and told the US companies that there will be consequences. (That is how a nation protects its core interests.)

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby hanumadu » 20 Jun 2019 03:47

kit wrote:
hanumadu wrote:If America really wan'ts to shut down Huawei, why cant it do what it did to ZTE? Stop the supply of components to Huawei. In fact, it could kill all chinese electronic manufacturing in one go if it stops supply of components to them. While at it, also stop supply of semiconductor plants.

All this to and fro shadow boxing is getting tiresome. They should simply go for broke.


thats a very naive comment.. America cant do a zte to Huawei without really hurting their own companies as well facing a rolling avalanche in their direction.

bright side , south east asia and esp India will benefit bigtime esp if they play the right cards.

For starters I want America to really sanction India for the S400 deal with Russia, makes thing a tad bit easier !!
Could be a pain in the short term but will work wonders long term.


Looks like I am not so naive after all going by A_Gupta's link.
Things are lot more interesting and progressed much further than I have thought.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/22/18635326/huawei-arm-chip-designs-business-suspension

Chip designer ARM has suspended business with Huawei, threatening the Chinese company’s ability to create its own chips.
Huawei relies on ARM for chip architecture designs for its own Kirin processors, and it pays to license these. Without the licenses, Huawei will not be able to continue manufacturing its own processors using ARM designs and its HiSilicon fabless semiconductor company.


Huawei has reportedly stockpiled enough US-made parts to last three months to a year, so it might have enough to keep operating. That stockpile will run out at some point in the future, especially on parts that are severely constrained in supply lines. Huawei currently relies on US-based manufacturers like Micron, Skyworks, and Qorvo that supply storage and networking components for some of Huawei’s phones.

Even without access to these key components Huawei faces a challenge, but without ARM’s architecture designs or instruction sets it faces a nearly impossible task of manufacturing a smartphone without US technology inside.


https://www.wired.com/story/huawei-loses-arm-chip-design/

Losing access to ARM won’t cripple Huawei overnight, even in a worst-case scenario. The electronics giant will still be able to use its current, licensed technology, which means that it can continue to package any chips already in play. Mobile processors generally receive annual bumps; Huawei introduced its Kirin 980 SoC last fall, and it would have continued to ship it for the next several months regardless.

But going forward, if the ban holds up, Huawei handsets will become frozen in time. The BBC reports that its upcoming chip, the Kirin 985, may have snuck in under the wire, but after that the company will be stuck on the latest and greatest ARM designs as of May 22, 2019. To become unstuck, it will need to embark on the costly, time-intensive process of designing its own core. The question is whether customers will bother to wait it out.


Huawei makes laptops too. Intel has already severed ties with Huawei. So no more Huawei laptops then. Huawei's CEO saying that they will suffer 30 billion reduction in sales sounds like bravado to me. Perhaps, they will survive for the next year or so with some stockpiled components, but after that?

But the big question is how will Huawei's router business survive this ban? All the focus so far has been on its smart phone business but the bone contention, in the first place, is its router business.

How does Huawei plan to get the chipsets for its routers. Since routers are a much more specialized segment, does it design its own processors? Cisco does for its high end core routers, perhaps for smaller routers too.

Who manufactures these chipsets for its routers and also its Kirin ARM processors for its smart phones? I guess some fabs in China and Taiwan. US can put a stop to the supply chain from Taiwan. Can it stop the fabs from main land China from operating by denying spare parts to the fabs?

There are implications to India and others too from this saga. Every high tech product has a US company or US IP in it. If the US so desires, it can sanction any country to stone age.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby hanumadu » 20 Jun 2019 03:58

NRao wrote:
hanumadu wrote:If America really wan'ts to shut down Huawei, why cant it do what it did to ZTE? Stop the supply of components to Huawei. In fact, it could kill all chinese electronic manufacturing in one go if it stops supply of components to them. While at it, also stop supply of semiconductor plants.

All this to and fro shadow boxing is getting tiresome. They should simply go for broke.


Huawei has always been a part of a larger Chinese game plan - to dominate the world without firing a bullet. There are a handful of other companies that are part of this game plan. And, we all know China has been trying to make everything China-centric - banking, etc. So, this strategy is not a surprise.

So, unlike ZTE, Huawei "seems" better prepared. Huawei does seem to have had plans to make all their components within China. Just that this event has come a little too early for them. To that end, Huawei has accelerated their effort, some reports claim they are on a 24-hour, round the clock, effort to beat Trump. The chances are the Gov of China will foot that bill. So, in a few years, we can expect them to rise again. And, this company being part of the core cannot be let go - their MEA has already said that and has also gathered all the imp US companies (Google, MS, etc) and told the US companies that there will be consequences. (That is how a nation protects its core interests.)


If the chinese had any game plan they would have come up with its own fab and jet engine technology. Perhaps they can still buy jet engines from Russia or Europe, but they have no recourse to electronic components other than US. If their Sun Tzu was any good, he would have taught them not to shout from the roof tops how they are acquiring this technology, that technology or their plans to be technologically independent in x years or their program of sending a thousand chinese students for phd and post doc studies in the US.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby kit » 20 Jun 2019 04:12

hanumadu wrote:
kit wrote:
thats a very naive comment.. America cant do a zte to Huawei without really hurting their own companies as well facing a rolling avalanche in their direction.

bright side , south east asia and esp India will benefit bigtime esp if they play the right cards.

For starters I want America to really sanction India for the S400 deal with Russia, makes thing a tad bit easier !!
Could be a pain in the short term but will work wonders long term.


Looks like I am not so naive after all going by A_Gupta's link.
Things are lot more interesting and progressed much further than I have thought.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/22/18635326/huawei-arm-chip-designs-business-suspension

Chip designer ARM has suspended business with Huawei, threatening the Chinese company’s ability to create its own chips.
Huawei relies on ARM for chip architecture designs for its own Kirin processors, and it pays to license these. Without the licenses, Huawei will not be able to continue manufacturing its own processors using ARM designs and its HiSilicon fabless semiconductor company.


Huawei has reportedly stockpiled enough US-made parts to last three months to a year, so it might have enough to keep operating. That stockpile will run out at some point in the future, especially on parts that are severely constrained in supply lines. Huawei currently relies on US-based manufacturers like Micron, Skyworks, and Qorvo that supply storage and networking components for some of Huawei’s phones.

Even without access to these key components Huawei faces a challenge, but without ARM’s architecture designs or instruction sets it faces a nearly impossible task of manufacturing a smartphone without US technology inside.


https://www.wired.com/story/huawei-loses-arm-chip-design/

Losing access to ARM won’t cripple Huawei overnight, even in a worst-case scenario. The electronics giant will still be able to use its current, licensed technology, which means that it can continue to package any chips already in play. Mobile processors generally receive annual bumps; Huawei introduced its Kirin 980 SoC last fall, and it would have continued to ship it for the next several months regardless.

But going forward, if the ban holds up, Huawei handsets will become frozen in time. The BBC reports that its upcoming chip, the Kirin 985, may have snuck in under the wire, but after that the company will be stuck on the latest and greatest ARM designs as of May 22, 2019. To become unstuck, it will need to embark on the costly, time-intensive process of designing its own core. The question is whether customers will bother to wait it out.


Huawei makes laptops too. Intel has already severed ties with Huawei. So no more Huawei laptops then. Huawei's CEO saying that they will suffer 30 billion reduction in sales sounds like bravado to me. Perhaps, they will survive for the next year or so with some stockpiled components, but after that?

But the big question is how will Huawei's router business survive this ban? All the focus so far has been on its smart phone business but the bone contention, in the first place, is its router business.

How does Huawei plan to get the chipsets for its routers. Since routers are a much more specialized segment, does it design its own processors? Cisco does for its high end core routers, perhaps for smaller routers too.

Who manufactures these chipsets for its routers and also its Kirin ARM processors for its smart phones? I guess some fabs in China and Taiwan. US can put a stop to the supply chain from Taiwan. Can it stop the fabs from main land China from operating by denying spare parts to the fabs?

There are implications to India and others too from this saga. Every high tech product has a US company or US IP in it. If the US so desires, it can sanction any country to stone age.


i think it might be possible ., it was not for nothing Xi is taking a personal interest in chip design and manufacture inside china.,
btw the bleeding edge tech for manufacturing the lithography machines that make the chips especially ASML of Netherlands. Apparently, the only company that manufactures photolithography machines. ., the tech is so prized and off limits that most companies do not even bother to invest in research in developing alternatives.

also a worthwhile read https://seekingalpha.com/article/4059013-switch-asmls-euv-lithography-will-impact-entire-semiconductor-supply-chain

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby hanumadu » 20 Jun 2019 04:35

https://www.gsmarena.com/huawei_laptops_back_in_microsoft_store_at_least_while_existing_inventory_lasts-news-37635.php

Huawei laptops are back in Microsoft store, but only until 'existing inventory' lasts


https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3011437/huawei-will-use-its-own-phone-chips-amid-report-uk-design-firm-arm

“We think ARM's suspension will accelerate Huawei adopting its own customer cores in new Kirin chips, and also developing its own Operating System and ecosystem,” said Wu. “We think Huawei will likely launch new Kirin chips in the near term to show little disruption to operations.”

Own OS and eco system is at least 5 to 10 years away, IMO. Custom chipsets? Several years away.

Several telecoms carriers have said they are scrapping plans to sell Huawei handsets as the impact of a US supply ban spreads. EE and Vodafone have dropped Huawei phones from their 5G launch plans in the UK. Over in Japan, SoftBank’s Y! Mobile service and KDDI have both indefinitely delayed sales of new Huawei handsets, citing safety checks.


Not all analysts are as optimistic as Jefferies on Huawei’s ability to withstand the loss of its relationship with ARM.
A Wired article points out that the open-source version of Android – which Huawei will likely have to use now that it is shut off from Google – is designed for ARM-based chips. “All of the options are going to be painful,” Wired quotes Eric Hanselman, chief analyst at 451 Research, as saying. “Changing out a core means you’ve got to do significant work not only in the silicon, but also in your software ecosystem. That’s not going to be simple.”


Huawei has also been developing proprietary chipsets for use in its smartphone and networking products, which are considered Intel and Qualcomm alternatives, while the company confirmed in March that it has developed its own operating systems (OS) for smartphones and computers in case those provided by US technology firms are no longer available.


But who will buy them outside china?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby hanumadu » 20 Jun 2019 04:44

kit wrote:
hanumadu wrote:
Looks like I am not so naive after all going by A_Gupta's link.
Things are lot more interesting and progressed much further than I have thought.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/22/18635326/huawei-arm-chip-designs-business-suspension





https://www.wired.com/story/huawei-loses-arm-chip-design/



Huawei makes laptops too. Intel has already severed ties with Huawei. So no more Huawei laptops then. Huawei's CEO saying that they will suffer 30 billion reduction in sales sounds like bravado to me. Perhaps, they will survive for the next year or so with some stockpiled components, but after that?

But the big question is how will Huawei's router business survive this ban? All the focus so far has been on its smart phone business but the bone contention, in the first place, is its router business.

How does Huawei plan to get the chipsets for its routers. Since routers are a much more specialized segment, does it design its own processors? Cisco does for its high end core routers, perhaps for smaller routers too.

Who manufactures these chipsets for its routers and also its Kirin ARM processors for its smart phones? I guess some fabs in China and Taiwan. US can put a stop to the supply chain from Taiwan. Can it stop the fabs from main land China from operating by denying spare parts to the fabs?

There are implications to India and others too from this saga. Every high tech product has a US company or US IP in it. If the US so desires, it can sanction any country to stone age.


i think it might be possible ., it was not for nothing Xi is taking a personal interest in chip design and manufacture inside china.,
btw the bleeding edge tech for manufacturing the lithography machines that make the chips especially ASML of Netherlands. Apparently, the only company that manufactures photolithography machines. ., the tech is so prized and off limits that most companies do not even bother to invest in research in developing alternatives.

also a worthwhile read https://seekingalpha.com/article/4059013-switch-asmls-euv-lithography-will-impact-entire-semiconductor-supply-chain


ASML has manufacturing units in the US. The optical technology used in photo lithography is from one of its US subsidiary. Yes, its extremely guarded technology and only very few companies possess it. That's exactly why china is in much deeper sh*t than thought.

As for Xi taking personal interest, he himself said that it will not be until 2050 that they can be technologically independent.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2019 05:20

Interesting discussion.

But who will buy them outside china?


A recent map from BBC:

Image

If the chinese had any game plan they would have come up with its own fab and jet engine technology. Perhaps they can still buy jet engines from Russia or Europe, but they have no recourse to electronic components other than US


As I said, they have a game plan, but one that went into the distant future. What we have to see is if China can accelerate that game plan. I am betting they have no choice - Huawei is a core company. Not a ZTE. They will, in fact, have to, accelerate. I do not see China giving up, they will turn around and fight.


Irrespective of what happens, the cat is out of the bag. This spat will impact other areas - rare earth, IP stealing, etc - as I see it, it is no longer a 5G/Huawei issue. China WILL pit Italy + Greece against the US or France or Germany.

Subrahmanyam Jaishankar was asked which side he would take: US or China. He says he responded: India. The fact that he was asked the question itself reflects not just how fragmented the world is, but the seriousness. If one does they are damned, if they don't they are damned.

The above map could be an indicator of the mood around the world.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2019 05:37

Trump can dent their income, but I doubt that he can shut them down, without paying in other areas.

Image

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chanakyaa » 20 Jun 2019 08:16

A recent map from BBC:

What's up with that map of India? Is Kashmir using Huawei, but India is hesitant? Those blokes at BBC.

OK, hear me out on this contrarian thought....
But who will buy them outside china?

India (provided Chinese are willing to setup manufacturing fab, design etc. in a joint venture to design phone and other equipment for Indian market) 8)

and transfer IP. Time for baniya desi to pull China on China (after they are beaten really bad)

Conversation can go other way, but that is fine...
India: China, please put your facilities in India for higher market share of Indian market (phone, telcome equipment ityadi ityadi)
China: Are you crazy? Why would we transfer our tech to you?
India: Ok, suit yourself. You are going to get royally screwed anyways by uncle (and out of Indian market). Good luck.

By the way, the smartphone market of China itself is massive...
Top 50 Countries/Markets by Smartphone Users and Penetration

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Singha » 20 Jun 2019 10:25

the japanese nikon/canon/toshiba may be a 2nd source of ASML type technology

>> Since routers are a much more specialized segment, does it design its own processors? Cisco does for its high end core routers, perhaps for smaller routers too.

cisco laid off most asic design teams after 2012 and started using merchant silicon broadcom trident(l2) and jericho(l3) chips. everyone else also uses like arista, hp, juniper but juniper does retain some of their own asic designs. these brcm chips are mostly all designed in israel which was an acquisiton named "dune". arista also dabbled with tofino chips now intel purchased tofino. someone also purchased mellanox (israeli co)

then cisco tried to poach some broadcom engineers, fund a place called "leuba" and make their own customized spin on the broadcom design - not seen any product shipped yet though they are trying to go into market with a reduced set of features vs jericho platforms to begin with. they are late and struggling on this. the SDK internals of broadcom jericho is unmanageably complex and only their israel engineers are able to make fixes. if customers add their own patches, they do not support. cisco network os (ios xr) is also a large ugly hairy wild boar that is impossible to maintain or reform. they are trying to break it into mixable and matchable pieces called "lindt" but again very late. their top people are long laid off and what is left are the desi GC and h1 dregs caught in the mousetrap who have to wait 251 years for the EB2 queue to reach their token number :shock: .

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Prasad » 20 Jun 2019 11:11

Semicon manufacturing is a global supply chain thing. Fab can be in China but as said earlier lithography and other machinery comes from elsewhere. Japan and SoKo supply a bulk of this to China. Fab raw materials come from outside China. So doing everything within China is close to impossible.

Read - https://www.semiconductors.org/wp-conte ... ay-6-1.pdf

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby syam » 20 Jun 2019 11:21

Chinis will fold once trumpin gets elected for second term which is inevitable. imo that's scary scenario. whom do you think he will target next?

BJP is totally anti-minority and anti-churchian. The basic human rights are under threat. The country needs to be saved. :twisted:

That's going to be after 2021/22 time frame. If we are any worth, we should prepare for that eventual show down.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby hanumadu » 20 Jun 2019 11:31

Singha wrote:the japanese nikon/canon/toshiba may be a 2nd source of ASML type technology


Yes, they are but they don't seem to command a big market share. Also, they do not seem to have invested in EUV lithography.
According to reports, the latest EUV machines from ASML are not into mass adoption yet as their throughput is currently not enough to make it profitable.

Billions of dollars have been invested in ASML by various chip manufacturing and semiconductor companies into ASML. Intel I believe invested 8 billion dollars to develop EUV for a stake in ASML. So did TSMC and Samsung. All these companies have a stake in the ASML technology being adopted widely.

No idea where India (or China) is on this front.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby hanumadu » 20 Jun 2019 11:42

syam wrote:Chinis will fold once trumpin gets elected for second term which is inevitable. imo that's scary scenario. whom do you think he will target next?

BJP is totally anti-minority and anti-churchian. The basic human rights are under threat. The country needs to be saved. :twisted:

That's going to be after 2021/22 time frame. If we are any worth, we should prepare for that eventual show down.


Perhaps that's what they are waiting for. Stockpile an year's worth and see what happens.
Or use its capacity to manufacture for other chinese companies like lenovo, zte, oppo or what ever. What's the difference? They are all owned by chinese govt anyway.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chola » 20 Jun 2019 15:58

NRao wrote:
chola wrote:
If the numbers were not there then they would have never gotten off the ground. You can't protect money-losing corporations without having money on hand to protect them with.

That is the thing with money is you can't really fake it. You either have it or you don't. If you have it then you can give a $30B loan. If you don't then you need to take a $30B loan.


There are two threads here:

1) WRT "corporations", yes, I cannot, but, the Pooh can. He has built entire urban areas that are not occupied.

However, that is not the problem. China should, or at least Wall Street must insist, on letting the books be checked. After all, these are traded entities.



Saar, there are many dictators who cannot build a single neighborhood with running his country into hyperinflation never mind the dozens of ghost cities in Cheen. Cheen is not magical just because it has a dictator. If it had no money it could not have built cities. In fact, dictator usually run countries with short supply of money because they tend to have bad economies i.e. NoKo.

Wall Street operates on consumer potential. If companies don't open their books then people will stay away from the offering -- unless the lure of the market is greater than the risk of malfeasance. There are many offering on Wall Street every year that tank because no one trusts their books.

In short, both answers comes down to the fact that chini economy generates massive amount of spending power that allow Eleven to build empty cities and Wall Street to risk buying shares in companies with iffy books.

2) The $30 billion - a national responsibility (not that of a corporation/s), yes, that has to be there. But there are ways around it too. Right?


Not really. There is a reason why most countries are underdeveloped. There is simply no way to make money appear unless your economy can actually make it. In short, to build anything, money has to be real. The ghost cities actually tell us that Cheen has obscenely large supplies of moolah.

We need to drop the mindset that Cheen's dictatorial communism allowed it to somehow "fake" the construction of empty cities. NoKo cannot even fully fund a big empty hotel in their capital of PingPong so a dictator cannot make wealth appear.

Cheen became an economic power -- despite being a dictatorship -- because it hooked itself into the global trade network and became capitalistic.

Anyways, IMHO, the time to analyze is long gone. It is not even time to slap tariffs (IMVVVHO). Time to sit and make 5G chips. Let us compete.


I agree to let's compete.

BUT both tariffs and non-tariff means will be needed if we have equivalent industries that need to be protected. Japan and Korea protected their car and electronic industries from the West as they developed. Otherwise competition from the dominant Western conglomerates would have never let them off the ground. But they didn't tariff everything otherwise they would gave clobbered other industries that depended on phoren supplies.

If we have companies that are making 5G components then we could and should protect them. If we don't then we simply place a financial burden with tariffs (or limiting of choices) on the local telecom companies trying upgrade the local grid. If the financial burden is heavy enough then 5G is simply foregone and we risk obsolescence as a competitive economy especially if places like ASEAN are upgrading more rapidly because of more available and cheaper components.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby rgosain » 20 Jun 2019 16:20

Guys the reasoning behind 5g is pretty unanimous - the problem that India has is that in a few weeks time the next NSG is being held.
There are two outcomes:

1) the prc blocks India's accession or
2) It gets someone like Turkey, NZ or a a smaller power to blackball India

This is exactly what the USA used to do, twenty years ago, when they were sanctioning India during Kargil, therefore the GOI should link the accession to the NSG for Huawei 5g access, otherwise Trump will do it.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chola » 20 Jun 2019 16:23

On Huawei, the Street's mood is that it will be weakened but it will survive. The fact that it is still standing and growing its market share in Cheen guarantees survival.

Where the Street is glum is because the blowback to America's position will be severe in the future simply because Cheen is the world's largest market.

There is institutional memory of this.

LockMart was on the verge of dominating Cheen's satellite market until Bush blocked it and now the PRC is sending more satellites each year into orbit than anyone. Nvidia and Intel dominated Cheen's HPC market until Obama blocked that and now the top 500 supercomputers includes 200 chini entries to 100 Amreeki ones.

Far better to sell to Cheen and dominate their market and than to cut ourselves off and basically force them to use homegrown systems. It is basically protecting their market for them. It is like the US government protecting Toyota and Honda by not selling Fords and GMs (historically, the Japanese gov protected its car industry from the then dominant Amreeki one by tariff and non-tariff means.)

But unlike the Amreeki military Wall Street doesn't have to face chini war systems with American DNA so the loss of market dominance in Cheen might be the proper tradeoff for the nation overall.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby NRao » 21 Jun 2019 01:47


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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby NRao » 21 Jun 2019 05:07

Saar, there are many dictators who cannot build a single neighborhood with running his country into hyperinflation never mind the dozens of ghost cities in Cheen. Cheen is not magical just because it has a dictator. If it had no money it could not have built cities. In fact, dictator usually run countries with short supply of money because they tend to have bad economies i.e. NoKo.


Well, let me give you my view of the world, it may not jive with anybody and that is OK.

1) The King of Debt category: get money, buy services, build a Tower, make a living off that Tower and not pay for the services
2) Long Live the CCP category: get money, buy services, build multiple Towers (cities), pay for the services and not make a living. Get more money
3) The Ultimate Dictator's category: get money, do not buy services, do not build anything, sent the money to a Swiss account. What economy?

Wall Street operates on consumer potential. If companies don't open their books then people will stay away from the offering -- unless the lure of the market is greater than the risk of malfeasance. There are many offering on Wall Street every year that tank because no one trusts their books


Wall Street operates on making money. Only for itself.



Anyways, ..................................

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 21 Jun 2019 14:55

Hong Kong anti-extradition Bill protesters block police HQ, demand to see police commissioner - Straits Times
HONG KONG - Protests in Hong Kong's political centre escalated late on Friday morning (June 21) as thousands of protesters massed outside the police headquarters in Wanchai, near the Legislative Council (LegCo) complex.

In blistering heat of over 30 deg C, protesters pushed police crowd control barriers to block the entrance to the forces' headquarters.

Chanting “release the people” and "police, disgrace", the protesters clapped with vigour between spurts of booing at the police. They demanded that Police Commissioner Stephen Lo meet them.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Lisa » 22 Jun 2019 00:27

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 897177.cms

US bars China supercomputer firms, institute from buying American parts

Popcorn anyone?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chanakyaa » 22 Jun 2019 05:38

Vietnam attracts record FDI
Vietnam has drawn FDI worth $16.74 billion in the first five months of the year, the highest in the period since 2015.
The registered foreign direct investment, which includes newly-registered capital, capital supplements and stake acquisitions, represents an increase of almost 70 percent year-on-year, the Ministry of Planning and Investment reported.

Of the amount $6.46 billion went into 1,363 newly-registered projects, up 38.7 percent. Mergers and acquisitions were up 2.8 times at $7.65 billion.

Hong Kong led with $5.08 billion, making up 30.4 percent of overall FDI in the period. They were followed by South Korean and Singaporean investors, who contributed $2.62 billion and $2.09 billion, or 15.7 percent and 12.5 percent respectively.

Over half of FDI from acquistion deals came from Hong Kong investors. The biggest deal is a $3.85 billion deal by Beerco Limited of Hong Kong to acquire a 99.39 percent stake at Hanoi-based beer maker Vietnam Beverage Co., Ltd.

Biggest newly-registered projects include a $260 million electronic equipment factory of a Hong Kong company, and a $214.4 million tyre factory of a Chinese company.

Experts said a major reason behind the registered FDI surge is a number of companies are leaving China for Southeast Asia including Vietnam to dodge tariffs given the escalating U.S.- China trade spat.

Terence Chiu, head of commercial banking at HSBC, told local media recently that factory owners had been shifting production lines to Southeast Asia, particularly Vietnam, to protect themselves from the rising tariffs due to the U.S.-China trade war.

He said the shift had already begun in the last few years after China became more expensive, but the trade war has brought a sense of urgency to factory owners.

Manufacturing accounted for 71.8 percent of all registered FDI in the January-May period, followed by real estate at 8.2 percent and wholesale and retail at 5.2 percent.

Disbursed FDI was estimated at $7.3 billion, up 7.8 percent year-on-year.

The FDI sector saw a trade surplus of $12.73 billion. Its exports, including crude oil, reached $70.4 billion, accounting for 69.9 percent of the country's export turnover.

Vietnam's registered FDI last year was down 1.2 percent from a year earlier to $35.46 billion. Disbursement reached a record $19.1 billion, a year-on-year rise of 9 percent.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby NRao » 22 Jun 2019 07:40

Mumbai customs cracks down on bulk importers of Chinese e-tailers

This is part of a crackdown on Chinese e-commerce imports into India by the Mumbai courier terminal against around a dozen companies for allegedly paying much lower customs duties.

The seizure orders, copies of which ET has access to, details the players against whom action has been initiated and the modus operandi of such operators.

These players have become more active after the government took action against Chinese e-commerce sellers who were routing orders through as duty-free “gifts and samples”, Customs officials told ET.

India exempts items valued up to Rs 5,000 from all taxes to allow Non-resident Indians to send gifts to families back home. ET reported on June 13 that the government has begun reviewing changes to the gift norms which might be introduced in the upcoming budget.

"It appears that the packing of goods is of B2C model… but the clearance is being sought for B2B model," the seizure order against Sino India Etail reads.

Apart from Sino India Etail, a smaller number of parcels of Globemax Commerce India have also been seized. Globemax is the local unit of another Chinese e-tailer Club Factory, and lists founder and CEO Vincent Yun Lou, as one of its whole-time directors.

Chinese e-commerce firms employ importers such as Sino India Etail and Globemax to bring in goods ordered by their customers into India in bulk, allowing them to bypass the cumulative 42.08% duty levied on individual imports.

They use the CB-13 low-value consignment route, which calls for very little disclosure.

In an emailed response to ET, Sino India Etail said, “We have always abided by the laws and paid all our taxes correctly and timely.” It also said it assists brands in distribution of clothing and accessories and has been in the business for a few years.

Globemax Commerce India did not respond to ET’s queries.

A top ranking Mumbai customs official told ET that these firms were front organisations for Chinese e-commerce companies and that they evade taxes by undervaluing goods.

The Mumbai terminal has now begun alerting other ports to potential malpractice by uploading the details of such firms on the National Risk Management portal, an alert system for evaders.

“Items are packed and shipped for individual customers, similar to how you get a package from Amazon at home. But these companies act as a bulk purchaser in which the value declared is 300-400% less than the actual value of items,” he said on the condition of anonymity.

Earlier this year, RSS affiliate Swadeshi Jagran Manch and social platform LocalCircles had sent letters to the finance ministry highlighting the issue of Chinese e-commerce players evading taxes. They said this gave Chinese sellers a price advantage over local counterparts.

While there have been calls for stricter enforcement at all of India’s customs ports, similar to the action Mumbai customs has taken, this isn’t a long-term solution, said Sachin Taparia, CEO of LocalCircles.

“A more permanent solution could be having the payment gateways levy a flat customs plus IGST charge for cross-border e-commerce shipments,” said Taparia. “Such a model will make things transparent for consumers and cross-border sellers, and could help minimise evasion.”


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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby syam » 23 Jun 2019 16:23

Small observation,
amerikis elections going to be in november 2020. chinis will still have to face 1 and half years of trump time even if they want to weather it out. That's not looking good. Even if they stockpile all the components for this time frame, that's not good business. so what exactly going on? :-?

imo amerikis already pressed kill switch. now we are seeing aftermath. there won't be any huawei after next year. chinis reaction is not what we expected because we are used to limited set of reaction. chinis are not democratic. they won't behave same as us. emperor xi won't be facing any election defeat if he loses the trade war. there might be power shuffle but hardly any life threatening to ccp elite. let's consider this seriously. we are dealing with entirely new entity. even amerikis also clueless about how to deal with it.

predictions time -
* chinis will focus on domestic market for next decade and confine their semi-conductor superiority to home until amerikis catch up with them.
* obar will be scaled down to immediate neighborhood. there won't be any big time new global trade routes until they fix their western dependency.
* we are at the start of something new. next 20 years will give shape to the new world order.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 23 Jun 2019 19:19

Asean leaders call for restraint in disputed South China Sea - South China Morning Post
Southeast Asian leaders on Sunday pressed their call for self-restraint in the disputed South China Sea after a new incident in the Philippines, and renewed their alarm over the US-China trade war.

The long-raging territorial conflicts and the protracted dispute between the two global economic powerhouses were high on the agenda in the final day of meetings in Thailand between leaders of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (Asean).


The diverse 10-nation bloc, founded in 1967 in Bangkok in the cold war era, lumps together an absolute monarchy and constitutional monarchies, along with socialist republics and fledgling democracies. Leaders meet in a summit which member nations take turns to hold each year.

Facing regional predicaments such as the Rohingya refugee crisis in Myanmar, the leaders took the stage and clasped their hands together in a trademark Asean handshake to project unity.

This year’s host, Thai Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-ocha, opened the summit with a call for regional unity and a push for Asean to conclude a massive free trade pact with China and five other Asia-Pacific nations to cushion any impact from the United States ’ trade conflicts with China.

“The winds of protectionism that are battering the multilateral system remind us that we must hang on ever stronger to one another,” Prayuth said.

The US, which has pursued bilateral deals over multi-nation trade accords under President Donald Trump, is not included in the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP), which Prayuth said would encompass the world’s largest free-trade region.

Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte told other leaders on Saturday the trade conflict between Washington and Beijing “is creating uncertainty. It is taking a toll on global growth and it could hinder the ongoing processes of economic integration”.

“The US and China must both take the high road and resolve their differences before the situation spirals out of control,” the usually blunt Duterte said.

In their public communiques, the leaders have avoided naming the US and China or specific nations embroiled in controversial issues in a show of their conservative protocols. The leaders, however, could raise thorny issues in a closed-door and informal session.

Duterte has said he would raise the territorial conflicts in the South China Sea following the June 9 sinking of an anchored Philippine boat by a larger Chinese fishing vessel in the disputed Reed Bank.

The incident sparked an outcry and condemnations in the Philippines after the Chinese crew sailed away, while the fishing boat sank at night and its Filipino crew remained stranded in the water. The crew was later rescued by a Vietnamese vessel.

Known for his close ties with China, Duterte has backed Beijing’s initial assertion that the collision was accidental. He mocked calls for him to immediately take drastic actions and agreed to a joint investigation of the Reed Bank incident with China, which critics have opposed.


In a statement outlining their regional policies, the leaders on Sunday renewed their call for countries involved in the territorial spats to “exercise self-restraint in the conduct of activities and avoid actions that may further complicate the situation, and pursue the peaceful resolution of disputes in accordance with international law”.

Four Asean states – the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia and Brunei – are among six governments locked in the disputes over the strategic waterway aside from China and Taiwan.

Asean has been in talks with China to negotiate a non-aggression pact called the “code of conduct” to prevent major armed clashes in the offshore region, which has long been regarded as an Asian flashpoint.

Southeast Asian diplomats have said that the first of three rounds of talks on the proposed pact was expected to be completed this year. The more difficult aspects, including whether the pact should be legally binding and cover the entire disputed region, have been relegated to the final rounds so as not to stall the talks early on.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 24 Jun 2019 09:08

ASEAN Outlook on the Indo-Pacific
Above document released after the 34th Plenary of ASEAN at Bangkok

Excerpts
The Asia-Pacific and Indian Ocean regions are amongst the most dynamic in the world as well as centers of economic growth for decades. . . Southeast Asia lies in the center of these dynamic regions and is a very important conduit and portal to the same. . . . ASEAN also needs to continue being an honest broker within the strategic environment of competing interests

ASEAN Outlook on the Indo-Pacific is based on the principles of strengthening ASEAN Centrality, openness, transparency, inclusivity, a rules-based framework, good governance, respect for sovereignty, non-intervention, complementarity with existing cooperation frameworks, equality, mutual respect, mutual trust, mutual benefit and respect for international law, such as UN Charter, the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, and other relevant UN treaties and conventions, the ASEAN Charter and various ASEAN treaties and agreements and the EAS Principles for Mutually Beneficial Relations (2011).
The existing and arising geopolitical challenges facing countries in the region also revolve around maritime issues such as unresolved maritime disputes that have the potential for open conflict. In addition, unsustainable exploitation of maritime resources and maritime pollution have also increasingly become major problems.
The second area of cooperation is connecting the connectivities. . . to achieve a seamlessly and comprehensively connected and integrated region that will promote competitiveness, inclusiveness, and a greater sense of community. Environmental and ecological impacts and considerations must be taken into account to ascertain the sustainability of such initiatives in the long term. . . . Exploring potential synergies with sub-regional frameworks, such as, IORA, BIMSTEC, BIMP-EAGA, Mekong subregional cooperation frameworks, including ACMECS, etc.;
Strategic discussions on this matter and practical cooperative activities can be pursued at ASEAN-led mechanisms including, among others, the EAS, the ASEAN Plus One mechanisms, ARF, and ADMM-Plus.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 24 Jun 2019 09:19

A few things to be noted above.
  • The ASEAN talks of 'Indo-Pacific', a term popularized by the US and hated by China
  • ASEAN refers prominently to the IORA
  • ASEAN wants to be at the centre realizing that the ground is slipping for it
  • It refers to a 'rules-based framework', a phrase that riles China no end
  • It refers to UNCLOS as the arbitrator, something rejected by China
  • The document mentions BIMSTEC but doesn't mention MSR (not that the two are comparable in size, objectives etc)


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