Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

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KLNMurthy
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby KLNMurthy » 22 Jun 2020 23:54

nandakumar wrote:KLNMurthy wrote:
"Indians may think they are powerless before China because they believe that China, like Indians would have done, already gamed India’s will and ability to wage economic warfare, and factored it in, so it is pointless for India to wage a war that the enemy would win anyway."
I can testify to this with my own personal experience. As an undergraduate student, I was taking the final exam on "Mathematical Economics". There was a problem in Economics involving the application of Differential Equations to solve a particular problem. The question carried 25 marks but it really involved the most rudimentary aspect of Differential Equations. So, in 3 or 4 steps one could have arrived at the answer. Now, I did have this nagging doubt if the examiner would have been so naive as to set a 25 mark question that involved arriving at the answer in four easy steps. But I didn't have the luxury of not talking a chance and attempting to answer some other question where I was sure of the steps in solving the problem. So I took a chance and answered that question that seemed fraught with risk. After the exam got over the students gathered around to discuss the question paper. One of my class mates asked me what did I do about that particular question. I explained to him the four steps to arrive at the answer. Imagine my surprise when this classmate of mine said, " Hey I knew that approach too. But thought that a question that carried 25 marks couldn't have been that simple. So decided to leave that in choice and took up some other question." He was cursing his luck for a long time after the exam.
It was symptomatic of a behaviour where we are not completely in possession of all the knowledge that is necessary to respond correctly to a situation. In that particular case it was the absence of full knowledge about fundamental principles of Differential Equations and Economic context to which it can be applied.

Yes indeed Nandakumar. Human psychology, or maybe just Indian psychology.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 22 Jun 2020 23:57

The demise and scaling back of the chinese factories would improve the environment for the whole world. Presently everyone in the world is polluting away due to cheap chinese crap that's made available from mega chinese factories.

After all it's the chinese that have come to Indian borders 3000km away and that didn't happen without any damage to environment.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby GopiD » 23 Jun 2020 00:52

Cross posting from the Border management thread

RaviB wrote:
The best profile of Xi is this one from wikileaks https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09BEIJING3128_a.html


Very informative posts on the Chinese psyche Ravi. Thanks for taking the time & efforts to write it up.

Also, the wikileaks page is a treasure trove of info on Xi Jingping. I will try to summarise it. Think that it is important know ones enemy.

A longtime Embassy contact and former close friend of Politburo Standing Committee Member and Vice President Xi
Jinping has shared with PolOff his first-hand knowledge of Xi's family background, upbringing, early adulthood, and
political career, as well as his impressions and assessments of Xi's personality and political views. The information was
acquired in multiple conversations over a two-year period 2007-2009. The contact is an American citizen of Chinese
descent who teaches political science at a U.S. university (protect), hereafter referred to as "the professor."


According to the contact, President Xi Jinping is "exceptionally ambitious," confident and focused, and has had his "eye on the prize" from early adulthood.

Unlike many youth who "made up for lost time by having fun" after the Cultural Revolution, Xi "chose to survive by
becoming redder than the red.
" He joined the Party and began mapping out a career plan that would take him to the top of
the system.


Xi is supremely pragmatic and a realist, driven not by ideology but by a combination of ambition and "self-protection."

Xi is a true "elitist" at heart, according to our contact, believing that rule by a dedicated and committed Communist Party leadership is the key to enduring social stability and national strength.


Our contact is convinced that Xi has a genuine sense of "entitlement," believing that members of his generation are the "legitimate heirs" to the revolutionary achievements of their parents and therefore "deserve to rule China."


Xi is not corrupt and does not care about money, but could be "corrupted by power,"


Xi at one point early in his career was quite taken with Buddhist mysticism, displaying a fascination with (and knowledge of) Buddhist martial arts and mystical powers said to aid health.

The contact stated that Xi is very familiar with the West, including the United States, and has a favorable outlook toward the United States. He also understands Taiwan and the Taiwan people from his long tenure as an official in Fujian Province.


Xi's father, Xi Zhongxun, was a communist guerilla leader in northwest China in the 1930s, when Mao and the CCP leaders reached Yan'an at the end of the Long March. Xi Zhongxun was purged during the Cultural Revolution and spent time in prison, according to the professor.


Xi Jinping joined the CCP in 1974 even while his father was still in prison. He carefully laid out a career plan that would maximize his opportunities to rise to the top levels of the Party hierarchy, first becoming a PLA officer in the late 1970s and then serving in a variety of provincial leadership positions, progressively rising through the ranks.


The professor said Xi's first degree was not a "real" university education, but instead a
three-year degree in applied Marxism.


Xi was the middle child in a family of three children that included an older sister and a younger brother, all of whom were apparently from his father's second marriage


Xi Jinping's first marriage was to Ke Xiaoming,the daughter of China's 1978-1983 ambassador to Great Britain, Ke Hua. The couple fought "almost every day," the professor said, and the marriage ended when Ke Xiaoming returned to England


The professor remarked that he thought Xi's "" quality contributed to the couple's divorce.


Xi later married a famous PLA singer.


With his father having been politically rehabilitated and rapidly regaining his power, Xi Jinping could have continued to rise quickly in the Central Party apparatus. Xi, however, reasoned that in the long run, staying in Beijing would limit his career potential. Moreover, in time, people would turn against him if he stayed in the Center. So in a calculated move to lay the basis for a future return as a Central leader, Xi asked for a position in the
countryside and, in 1982, became a local official in Shijiazhuang, the capital of Hebei province.

Xi told the professor at the time that he "would be back one day and told that going to the provinces was his "only path to central power." Xi "had promotion to the Center in mind from day one." Xi knew how to develop personal networks and work the system, first using his father's networks and later building his own.


The professor on
repeated occasions painted a portrait of Xi Jinping as an ambitious, calculating, confident and focused person who in early adulthood demonstrated his singleness of purpose. Xi joined the Communist Party while his father still languished in a Party prison for alleged political crimes.


Xi was reserved and detached and "difficult to read," said the professor. He had a "strong mind" and understood power, but "from day one, never showed his hand."


Xi Jinping could not talk about women and movies and did not drink or do drugs. Xi was considered of only average intelligence, the professor said, and not as smart as the professor's peer group.


the professor said, Xi was "not cold-hearted." He was still considered a "good guy" in other ways. Xi was outwardly friendly, "always knew the answers" to questions, and would "always take care of you."


Xi and other first-generation princelings derisively refer to people with non-Party, non-elite, commercial backgrounds like Hu Jintao as "shopkeepers' sons," whose parents did not fight and die for the revolution and therefore do not deserve positions of power.


Xi knows how very corrupt China is and is repulsed by the all-encompassing commercialization of Chinese society, with its attendant nouveau riche, official corruption, loss of values, dignity, and self-respect, and such "moral evils" as drugs and prostitution, the professor stated.


Xi also knows Taiwan and the Taiwan people very well, the professor said, noting that Xi was in Fujian province for more than twenty years. Attracting Taiwan investment to Fujian was an important part of his accomplishments as a Xiamen official.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 23 Jun 2020 01:04

China Sends Ship as Warning to Vietnam: No Court Case, No Oil Drilling
22 June 2020

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.voacam ... 72389.html

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Suraj » 23 Jun 2020 02:00

KLNMurthy wrote:I am seeing confirmed leftists on WhatsApp suddenly worrying about the ecological destruction due to the activities on LAC, and how it is imperative that the conflict be ended ASAP to prevent environmental catastrophe. Because that is THE MOST CRITICAL thing. Don't think this psywar tactic has yet been reported on this forum here. I think it is a good tactic, as most Indians would be for "peace" and environmental preservation.

The peace/pacifism cultural attribute is indeed as prevalent in India as the 'order over freedom' one is in China. The only way to combat such elements is to emphasize what hypocritical frauds they are themselves. Not too hard to do - like the CCP, the entire elite ecosystem in India is an inherently corrupt and self serving apparatus.

In fact, I think there are great similarities between the CCP and the Congress ecosystem in India. The former just happens to have permanent control over power by virtue of its control over coercive power. If you interpret these two entities in this manner, it becomes very clear why they actually did something otherwise odd sounding as an MOU between them.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby RaviB » 23 Jun 2020 03:09

Cross-posting from the Border thread

Right now what I find simply amazing is that all their info is coming from Indian media.

This offers us great opportunities for psy-wars. I mean they are using DrAPR's twitter account to get news, we could exploit this very well.

The two angles I think we could use very productively:

1. Kind Indians soldiers and Cruel Indian soldiers There is a picture of Indian soldiers giving water to a Chinese soldier. If there were some fake images of Chinese soldiers killed by us, it would be perfect to build a narrative of being nice to surrendered soldiers and being terrifyingly cruel to those who attack. All Chinese soldiers have cellphones and spend time on SM. Just posting this on a few twitter accounts will mean that the Chinese will find and share it. If it breaks the morale of even one single Chinese soldier at no cost to us, it would be worth a try. Unfortunately I can't message DrAPR but if someone can pass on this idea it would be great.

2. Rogue General Zhao Bharatshakti did a profile on him and I think we need to push the rogue PLA narrative. From the little that I know it is likely that Xi and Zhao are closely connected, both are princelings and have a Sha'anxi connection. There are rumors that currently there are two factions in the CPC, princelings like Zhao and Xi (and his former rival Bo Xilai) and "shopkeepers children" like former president Hu. Chinese public opinion tilts against the princelings due to their extreme corruption and the doings of their children. Even though it is highly likely that Xi has personally approved this operation and the general is closely connected to him, it would be nice if we could push the "rogue general" narrative. That would force Xi to either publicly side with him or give him a way to transfer the general. One TV debate discussing experts commenting on the likelihood of a Rogue general and CPC infighting based on zero knowledge would already create FUD in China. FWIW, I myself have paper credentials that would make me sound authoritative while having zero clue about the situation.

China is ham-handedly trying to influence Indian public opinion as well. They had Global Times push a piece about how India's economic nationalism was the going to hurt it. Then when it got panned for being Global Times, People's Daily, which is more respectable copy-pasted the same story to push it.

Psyops are very much a part of PLA warfare and it would be a pity if we did not use it as part of our own strategy. We have so many TV channels, media outlets, everything that the Chinese depend on for information, we have bollywood, special effect studios and tiktok users. These are all fantastic assets and most importantly we have a Chinese audience starved of information from their own side.]

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby sudarshan » 23 Jun 2020 04:25

X-post from "Let us Understand the Chinese"

Suraj wrote:here it is

Before anyone reads that series of posts please do this self quiz:
Kinmen and Matsu are
1. Two islands halfway between China and Taiwan held by China
2. Two islands halfway between them held by Taiwan
3. Two islands near Taiwan held by China
4. Two islands next to China held by Taiwan
5. A famous Chinese noodle soup


Thanks! Would urge members here (who haven't seen this before) to go through these few posts. Not to get complacent, but to get some perspective on Chinese military capability. You might be surprised, I certainly was very very surprised when I first learned about this.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby kancha » 23 Jun 2020 07:39

As part of a sustained campaign to junk Chinese goods / services and go Indian, some have been recommending the 'Hike Messenger' app as an Indian alternative. I did some research into it and unsurprisingly, found a substantial Chinese footprint!
Here's what I wrote (Link):

But when I decided to did into them a bit, their wikipedia page gave a V.E.R.Y interesting piece of info about their ‘Indianness’ – Apparently, on 16 Aug 2016, just one day after the 69th anniversary of Indian independence, Hike got a 175 Million Dollar investment from a Tencent Group led grouping
.
.
Yup.
A Chinese company owns a substantial stake in an ‘Indian’ App!
What I did next on Wikipedia was to check out the owners of Tencent. Unsurprisingly, out came the name of Shri Ma Huateng.
Who’s Ma Huateng, you asked?
Well, he has a Wikipedia page too!
That page tells that he is a member of the Chinese Communist Party – a VERY SENIOR member at that. Heck, he is a part of the 12th National People’s Congress!
.
.
And then there is another ‘beautiful’ thing about Tencent.
TENCENT ARE THE OWNERS OF WECHAT!
.
.
Of course, there is also the ‘small’ issue of private data of the 10 million plus mostly Indian users who have installed this app, that can potentially be accessible to the Chinese Communist Party member owned Tencent.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Jarita » 23 Jun 2020 09:41

If this is redundant and naive and superstitious please feel free to delete the post.

Mother Mirra’s Vision of China Invading India & Their Horrendous Capacity of Brutality
by Pulkit Mathur, The Spiritual Bee

in Hindu-Muslim Unity & Communal Harmony

https://www.spiritualbee.com/posts/sri- ... ing-india/

I
t was to counter China’s hegemonic intentions that the Divine forces have envisioned a reunification of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and other nations back into Akhand Bharat. It WILL happen…it’s just a matter of time. For if India perishes under a Chinese invasion, then Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan etc. too will be wiped out. They don’t stand a chance. Everything will go the way of Tibet. The entire South Asia, it’s culture and it’s heritage will be obliterated.

But the Divine will NOT let this happen. And we must support the Divine’s WILL by staying UNITED. For South Asian nations to preserve their individual cultures and history, they will have to come together in a united opposition (perhaps along the lines of the European Union) to China. This is the only option.


“And so one can expect ANYTHING from them — every possible horror. To be under Chinese domination …it’s better to die first. They are…from the point of view of sensitivity, they are monsters.”

“I’ve seen them — all, everywhere … horrible! I’ve seen the Chinese in this room. Which is the end of everything. I mean, it will probably take centuries before things can return to normalcy. You see, there are limits to the horrors men can commit because, in spite of everything, there is a psychic being behind that curbs them — but the Chinese don’t have one.”

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby kancha » 23 Jun 2020 09:45

sudarshan wrote:X-post from "Let us Understand the Chinese"

Suraj wrote:here it is

Before anyone reads that series of posts please do this self quiz:
Kinmen and Matsu are
1. Two islands halfway between China and Taiwan held by China
2. Two islands halfway between them held by Taiwan
3. Two islands near Taiwan held by China
4. Two islands next to China held by Taiwan
5. A famous Chinese noodle soup


Thanks! Would urge members here (who haven't seen this before) to go through these few posts. Not to get complacent, but to get some perspective on Chinese military capability. You might be surprised, I certainly was very very surprised when I first learned about this.


This is news to me!
I wonder by the social media hasn't already gone berserk with this story.
On that note, I'll just replug a few more pieces that I wrote on the military capabilities of the PLA some years ago.

1. People's Liberation Army - Calling The Bluff : This one is about how the PLA soldiers ran away after coming under fire from a militia in South Sudan and situation was restored by an Indian Army company.

2. People's Liberation Army - Calling The Bluff (Part II) - This is a relatively lesser known story, of the Indian company commander's perspective on how he went from being in awe of the Chinese peacekeeping contingent to finally knowing the truth about them. A lot of insights into the PLA's psyche out here.

3. People’s Liberation Army – A History of ‘Valour’ - A chronicle of all known military engagements of the PLA.

The true story of their military capabilities, with such anectodal evidence needs to be flooding the social media, especially in light of the videos of Chinese troopers getting their backsides kicked, that were released yesterday.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Hari Seldon » 23 Jun 2020 11:32

GT propagandu video: Top-class ROFL quality.

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/sta ... 08289?s=20

"Even asleep with exhaustion after intensive training, they won’t allow anybody to take their guns away. This is what guns mean to Chinese soldiers."

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby RaviB » 23 Jun 2020 15:21

Cross posted from Border thread

Relations with Taiwan

I see several people have proposed recognising Taiwan in retaliation to the current situation.

This would be absurd because:

1. The ROC (Taiwan) has the same claims on Tibet as the PRC. So it does nothing for resolving the Indo-Tibetan boundary

2. Chinese have a philosophy of "suck up - kick down". It's good for us if Taiwan stays below us, sucking up. There's no point in giving them equal status.

3. The possibility of recognition at some future date is a very good carrot to dangle, there's no point in handing it to Taiwan because we are angry at China. Taiwan has done nothing to earn it. Not to mention that even USA doesn't recognise them

4. We already have good relations with Taiwan. They have a de facto embassy (called Taipei Economic Council I think) in Delhi. We should definitely reciprocate a bit more but they already do a lot for us.

5. We should deepen our relations with them, most importantly in the economic sphere. Automatic visas for Taiwanese businessmen, while delaying or denying visas for Chinese businessmen will go a long way towards addressing the economic imbalance. A lot of business relies on personal contact, and personal presence and visas are an excellent way of making it more difficult for the Chinese to do business. If the Chinese retaliate by doing the same to our businessmen, then it's a plus. Most Indian businessmen are not there for any other reason than extracting profit for themselves and importing cheap rubbish into India. Our nation has no duty to serve the import of golden plastic lamps into India at the cost of more important interests.

6. The Taiwanese invested in China when it had nothing, no infrastructure, no educated workers, nothing. They are used to getting things to work in less than ideal conditions. They will have less hangups about getting things going in India.

7. The Taiwanese are heavily invested in the PRC, and would definitely like to move out some of that investment. We should do everything possible to help them do that. China doesn't have much leverage on Taiwan, other than military threats. Plus it needs those Taiwanese investments. Plus just as India wouldn't forbid Arunachal Pradesh to have economic activities in India, PRC cannot prohibit economic exchanges with Taiwan without tying itself into knots

8. Exchanging intelligence. They have very good intelligence on PRC. The HUMINT is exceptional, SIGINT is obviously an Uncle thing. They were the first ones to learn of the Wuhan Virus and slam their doors shut. Their paranoia about China and of course their experience with previous outbreaks is what helped them move so quickly on the CV. We have some very basic intelligence exchange, but we need to deepen this much further (maybe in exchange for automatic business visas or relaxed FDI rules?).

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby sajo » 23 Jun 2020 15:28

RaviB saar, please accept humble pranams from a noob for your enlightening posts!
How does the Taiwanese sentiment stack up against the Chinese? Do they indulge in all out propaganda via social media and traditional media to vilify the Chinese? If they are so heavily invested in China, how come its with all the -ve sentiment (if at all)?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 23 Jun 2020 17:14

Lot of these will only succeed if competent Union ministers and bureaucracy are assigned. The goal should be similar to how anyone and everyone is allergic to word Russian in US. Every Indian should be default have background hate for Chinese.


Need clear symbols like vegetarian and an office in Arunachal Pradesh to obtain that symbol verification.

Union govt makes it mandatory for sellers to mention of ‘Country of Origin’ of products in Government e-Marketplace
https://www.opindia.com/2020/06/union-g ... rketplace/
In a bid to promote ‘Aatmanirbhar Bharat Abhiyan’ (Self-reliant India), the Government e-Marketplace (GeM) – the dedicated portal for government procurement has made it mandatory for sellers to mention the ‘country of origin’ on products they sell through the platform.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Cyrano » 23 Jun 2020 17:33

Union govt makes it mandatory for sellers to mention of ‘Country of Origin’ of products in Government e-Marketplace


Good move. The Govt should mandate Country of Origin disclosure for the entire retail sector, including online retail.

We should also create a label "Pure Indian" for 100% indigenous products and "India Made" for 80% (by value) indegeneous products like "Swiss Made" (which you see on watches).

And let the consumers decide.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Hari Seldon » 23 Jun 2020 18:07

https://twitter.com/IndoPac_Info/status ... 56/photo/1

Next, Japanese ships & planes would enforce a “blockade zone” around Okinawa to catch Chinese subs that succeed in leaving port.

Then, Tokyo & allies would undertake “encirclement & annihilation combat”, hunting down Chinese subs that slip past the Okinawa blockade zone.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 23 Jun 2020 18:13

Hopefully other chinese neighbors are also making moves to recover what Chinese have stolen from them. Or at least fortifying their positions to their advantage.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 23 Jun 2020 18:51

US government declares China’s Global Times, People’s Daily and two other outlets as ‘foreign missions’, calls them CCP mouthpieces controlled by Chinese govt
https://www.opindia.com/2020/06/global- ... ent-trump/
The United States administration on Monday designated four more Chinese propaganda outlets as ‘foreign missions’, announcing that they are the mouthpieces for the Communist Party of China.

In a move that is likely to increase tensions between the two countries, the Donald Trump administration designated four media outlets – state broadcaster China Central Television, the ruling Communist Party’s mouthpiece newspaper People’s Daily, its tabloid subsidiary the Global Times, and the semiofficial state-run China News Service and reflected their real status as “propaganda outlets” under the control of the Chinese Communist Party.

“The Communist Party does not just exercise operational control over these propaganda entities, but it has full editorial control over their content,” said David Stilwell, the senior US diplomat for East Asia.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby sudarshan » 23 Jun 2020 20:19

kancha wrote:This is news to me!
I wonder by the social media hasn't already gone berserk with this story.
On that note, I'll just replug a few more pieces that I wrote on the military capabilities of the PLA some years ago.

...


Nice compilation.

About Kinmen-Matsu - that post trail that Suraj linked, missed an interesting point, which he had made earlier (he has posted about Kinmen-Matsu several times).

That point is - to this date, Taiwan continues to run ships and planes through Chinese territorial waters to supply those islands, and China doesn't dare do anything about it.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Anantha » 23 Jun 2020 20:25

Gobar Times being run by ccp do not know what to do when somebody talks back and challenges them. This is undoubtedly due to their robotic culture.The sheer number of replies by desis mocking them with contempt on Twitter has really rattled them.
Gobar is moving between threatening, advising restraint, singing praises of their soldiers insulting India etc. Due to their own censorship our side is giving them sound thrashing. If one us has time, please set up a parody account called Gobar Times and mock them with news about one child, vietnam defeat, and use fault line of uyghur, Hongkong, Taiwan, how Xi is heading for lamp post etc.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Suraj » 23 Jun 2020 21:02

RaviB wrote:Cross posted from Border thread

Relations with Taiwan

I see several people have proposed recognising Taiwan in retaliation to the current situation.

This would be absurd because:

1. The ROC (Taiwan) has the same claims on Tibet as the PRC. So it does nothing for resolving the Indo-Tibetan boundary

2. Chinese have a philosophy of "suck up - kick down". It's good for us if Taiwan stays below us, sucking up. There's no point in giving them equal status.

3. The possibility of recognition at some future date is a very good carrot to dangle, there's no point in handing it to Taiwan because we are angry at China. Taiwan has done nothing to earn it. Not to mention that even USA doesn't recognise them

4. We already have good relations with Taiwan. They have a de facto embassy (called Taipei Economic Council I think) in Delhi. We should definitely reciprocate a bit more but they already do a lot for us.

5. We should deepen our relations with them, most importantly in the economic sphere. Automatic visas for Taiwanese businessmen, while delaying or denying visas for Chinese businessmen will go a long way towards addressing the economic imbalance. A lot of business relies on personal contact, and personal presence and visas are an excellent way of making it more difficult for the Chinese to do business. If the Chinese retaliate by doing the same to our businessmen, then it's a plus. Most Indian businessmen are not there for any other reason than extracting profit for themselves and importing cheap rubbish into India. Our nation has no duty to serve the import of golden plastic lamps into India at the cost of more important interests.

6. The Taiwanese invested in China when it had nothing, no infrastructure, no educated workers, nothing. They are used to getting things to work in less than ideal conditions. They will have less hangups about getting things going in India.

7. The Taiwanese are heavily invested in the PRC, and would definitely like to move out some of that investment. We should do everything possible to help them do that. China doesn't have much leverage on Taiwan, other than military threats. Plus it needs those Taiwanese investments. Plus just as India wouldn't forbid Arunachal Pradesh to have economic activities in India, PRC cannot prohibit economic exchanges with Taiwan without tying itself into knots

8. Exchanging intelligence. They have very good intelligence on PRC. The HUMINT is exceptional, SIGINT is obviously an Uncle thing. They were the first ones to learn of the Wuhan Virus and slam their doors shut. Their paranoia about China and of course their experience with previous outbreaks is what helped them move so quickly on the CV. We have some very basic intelligence exchange, but we need to deepen this much further (maybe in exchange for automatic business visas or relaxed FDI rules?).

Your sequence of posts have been incredibly cogent and have explained China to many here. Though familiar with a lot of this myself (mostly from past friendships and relationships spanning the Taiwan Strait :) ) I've learned a lot too.

However, I have a point to make here regarding this argument:
1. The ROC (Taiwan) has the same claims on Tibet as the PRC. So it does nothing for resolving the Indo-Tibetan boundary

This has been quoted here before. Always by mainlanders who support PRC. This argument takes advantage of a nuance of the statement that people aren't quite familiar with. I'm more familiar with Taiwanese than mainlanders, so I got to learn about their view of this. My own sources are multiple 60-80 year ex ROCN/ROCA retirees in the bay area; I'm not their age though, just half that old.

Fundamentally there are two differently entities here and it's best to view them as such. Let's start with geographical entities: Mainland China and Taiwan island. Taiwan has three major cities TaiPei, written by mainland Romanization as TaiBei - north Taiwan . Same Bei as Bei Jing (north capital). Then there's Taichung, written by mainland Romanization as TaiZhong - central Taiwan. Same Zhong as ZhongHua (middle Kingdom, what they call themselves), and TaiNan or south Taiwan, same as NanJing which means South Capital (it was a former dynasty capital of mainland).

Now there are the governmental entities, and these owe themselves entirely to the Chinese Civil War era. There's PRC, which rules the mainland and asserts Taiwan is part of it. There's ROC, which was the former governmental entity of the mainland, that moved over and ran a government in exile in Taiwan, while desiring to rule the mainland as well. The names of the political parties running PRC and ROC were respectively Chinese Communist Party and Kuomintang (Chinese Nationalist Party).

The above distinction is clear when you consider that the CCP that runs PRC, always asserts that Taiwan is a renegade entity. It never says that the ROC is, since that makes no sense.

Fast forward to present day - CCP still runs the mainland as PRC. Kuomintang is no longer the one party ruler of Taiwan's ROC governemnt. In fact Kuomintang is no longer in power in Taiwan. Kuomintang no longer even espouses ROC, which is deeply unpopular within the younger generation in Taiwan. In Taiwan, the older generation are Kuomintang supporters far more so than the younger ones. I have been to a Bay Area KMT fundraiser as someone's significant other at the time. And I have been face to face with ex Taiwan president Ma Ying Jeou as well as seen Tsai Ing Wen the current President, in person at a gathering, though not interacted with either of them. Interesting experience. They probably asked their minders who's the Indian spy.

So it may be true on paper that 'Taiwan (ROC)' had the same territorial claims as PRC. But here's the reality. There is no Taiwan (ROC). It hasn't existed for a long time. There's a Taiwan. There's a desire of one of Taiwan's parties (KMT) to re-establish ROC. That is the past fantasy of a collection of 80+ year old people. The younger Taiwanese generation is very prickly about the use of the term Chinese or China. They don't like using ROC, and they're vehemently against 'Chinese Taipei' at the Olympics or other sport events - they assert they are just Taiwan.

So there are wheels within wheels of this topic to consider.
3. The possibility of recognition at some future date is a very good carrot to dangle, there's no point in handing it to Taiwan because we are angry at China. Taiwan has done nothing to earn it. Not to mention that even USA doesn't recognise them

The other part of this is that they don't want it. If New Delhi stated tomorrow morning that they're giving Taiwan full diplomatic recognition, Beijing and Taipei would be equally horrified, for different reasons. Beijing would be furious. Taipei would be frightened about the huge foreign policy headache and anger from Beijing directed at them.

The hard reality is that the Taiwanese don't know what they want. They 'don't want the present', but they're quite literally by their own admission not keen on demanding full recognition. The most direct answer I've gotten from them (both younger and older folks) is that they are chicken. They know the source of their wealth and prosperity, and unlike Pakistanis, aren't stupid enough to want to shoot themselves in the foot when they have a good thing going. They prefer to evolve an independent identity and are aware they themselves don't quite know what they want/are - they have an internal inter-generational conflict between really old folks with ROC fantasies, somewhat younger folks who are pro-KMT, and much younger folks who want nothing to do with KMT.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby sreerudra » 23 Jun 2020 22:17

RaviB wrote:Cross-posting from the Border thread

Right now what I find simply amazing is that all their info is coming from Indian media.

This offers us great opportunities for psy-wars. I mean they are using DrAPR's twitter account to get news, we could exploit this very well.

The two angles I think we could use very productively:

1. Kind Indians soldiers and Cruel Indian soldiers There is a picture of Indian soldiers giving water to a Chinese soldier. If there were some fake images of Chinese soldiers killed by us, it would be perfect to build a narrative of being nice to surrendered soldiers and being terrifyingly cruel to those who attack. All Chinese soldiers have cellphones and spend time on SM. Just posting this on a few twitter accounts will mean that the Chinese will find and share it. If it breaks the morale of even one single Chinese soldier at no cost to us, it would be worth a try. Unfortunately I can't message DrAPR but if someone can pass on this idea it would be great.

2. Rogue General Zhao Bharatshakti did a profile on him and I think we need to push the rogue PLA narrative. From the little that I know it is likely that Xi and Zhao are closely connected, both are princelings and have a Sha'anxi connection. There are rumors that currently there are two factions in the CPC, princelings like Zhao and Xi (and his former rival Bo Xilai) and "shopkeepers children" like former president Hu. Chinese public opinion tilts against the princelings due to their extreme corruption and the doings of their children. Even though it is highly likely that Xi has personally approved this operation and the general is closely connected to him, it would be nice if we could push the "rogue general" narrative. That would force Xi to either publicly side with him or give him a way to transfer the general. One TV debate discussing experts commenting on the likelihood of a Rogue general and CPC infighting based on zero knowledge would already create FUD in China. FWIW, I myself have paper credentials that would make me sound authoritative while having zero clue about the situation.

China is ham-handedly trying to influence Indian public opinion as well. They had Global Times push a piece about how India's economic nationalism was the going to hurt it. Then when it got panned for being Global Times, People's Daily, which is more respectable copy-pasted the same story to push it.

Psyops are very much a part of PLA warfare and it would be a pity if we did not use it as part of our own strategy. We have so many TV channels, media outlets, everything that the Chinese depend on for information, we have bollywood, special effect studios and tiktok users. These are all fantastic assets and most importantly we have a Chinese audience starved of information from their own side.]



I like all these ideas, but there is one big elephant in the room that no one is talking about. Controlling Indian media and Bollywood. When would the Govt wake up? Aggregators like Google News, Facebook, etc. tout anti-Indian leaders like RaGa or Yechury or NDT or Quint, etc. to the front of the news and keep mildly written commie articles of other outlets like ToI, Newsweek or Chronicle, etc. Where is I&B ministry on this? Did you notice even Nepal started reporting the weather on Kalapani etc. and started broadcasting nonsense in their FM stations? India needs a strong communication manager. Working on theories in the backroom won't work for PR.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby sreerudra » 23 Jun 2020 22:21

csaurabh wrote:Can anyone tell me exactly why soldiers were fighting with clubs or other melee weapons?


Our treaty won't allow both sides pull out weapons sir!

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby RaviB » 24 Jun 2020 00:17

sreerudra wrote:
RaviB wrote:Cross-posting from the Border thread

Right now what I find simply amazing is that all their info is coming from Indian media.

This offers us great opportunities for psy-wars. I mean they are using DrAPR's twitter account to get news, we could exploit this very well.

<snip>
Psyops are very much a part of PLA warfare and it would be a pity if we did not use it as part of our own strategy. We have so many TV channels, media outlets, everything that the Chinese depend on for information, we have bollywood, special effect studios and tiktok users. These are all fantastic assets and most importantly we have a Chinese audience starved of information from their own side.]



I like all these ideas, but there is one big elephant in the room that no one is talking about. Controlling Indian media and Bollywood. When would the Govt wake up? Aggregators like Google News, Facebook, etc. tout anti-Indian leaders like RaGa or Yechury or NDT or Quint, etc. to the front of the news and keep mildly written commie articles of other outlets like ToI, Newsweek or Chronicle, etc. Where is I&B ministry on this? Did you notice even Nepal started reporting the weather on Kalapani etc. and started broadcasting nonsense in their FM stations? India needs a strong communication manager. Working on theories in the backroom won't work for PR.


That's the thing, we don't need to control anything. It's like putting rat poison out there, maybe they bite, maybe they don't. But I mean when I saw the hermit-farmer tweets being shared as news on Chinese SM as fact, I just couldn't stop laughing. Right now India Today gave a detailed account of how things developed on 15th June. On Chinese forums, they are using that very statement, interpreting it as necessary to spin their own side of the story. They are starved for information. Imagine the rat poison being put outside when the rats are starving.

There is no need to have a single voice, just put stuff out there and the Chinese will find and share it. One or two leaks, we have enough crazy channels who won't check anything before pushing it out. Then the Chinese find it and share it. It just has to be catchy enough.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Y I Patel » 24 Jun 2020 00:48

Thank you RaviB for your highly educative posts!

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby KLNMurthy » 24 Jun 2020 01:05

Keep it coming RaviB. Mods, kindly save his posts.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby KLNMurthy » 24 Jun 2020 01:26

Hermit-farmer tweet? Kya hai?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Philip » 24 Jun 2020 01:41

In trying to understand the Chinko Long March of the 21st. century,trampling smalle= nations in its path,we must ho back in history and rrcall what was happening to China a few centuries dio,why even a century ago and the emergence of Mao. China was forced into colonisation and exploitation by western white powers.
The famous " Opiuuho experienced untold suffering and misery under the jackboot of imperialism. Japan too earlier was opened up by Yanqui " gunboat diplomacy".

It was Mao who thrice defeated Chiang Kai-shek and his KMT and eventually threw him out of the mainland. Not well- known are the attempts of Mao to make friends and common cause with the US.The '40s,'50s however were when McCarthyism held sway over the US with its infamous "Commie trials".US diplomats even passing on Mao's messages of bonhomie were incarcerated. It eas left to Deng,who was famously quoted as saying " to be rich is glorious", saw the fate of the USSR thanks to Gorbachev who took China on the path of neo- Commie capitalism, ontrolled by the state.

In this pursuit of power and wealth,the Chins have been fuelled by this deep-rooted sense of injustice under colonialism and the imperial jackboot, just as the Nazis under Hitler and most Germans resented the injustices of the one-sided Treaty of Versailles. Ironically it is the US which is responsible for the rise of today's bully of Asia,China. India,considered a " coolie" inferior nation by China,dealt with it in inimitable style in '62 and still imagine that the India of today and its PM are still mired in the
"tides and shallows" of the past. Sadly for China,we've taken our tide "at the flood" and have no wish to play "second fiddle" either in Asia or around the globe...

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 24 Jun 2020 01:48

May be already posted.



PH seeks stronger naval ties with India
https://www.pna.gov.ph/articles/1106565
MANILA – The Philippine Navy (PN) expressed hope for stronger ties with the Indian Navy following its assistance to the repair of the BRP Ramon Alcaraz, whose engine room caught fire off Cochin, India on May 7.

"Your support in this unfortunate incident is way beyond our expectations and is a testament of your sincerity in deepening our Navy-to-Navy partnership. Rest assured that the Philippine Navy remains committed to this partnership and we hope to expand this relationship as we seek better ways to make our seas safer and more secure for everyone," PN flag-officer-in-command Vice Admiral Giovanni Carlo Bacordo said in his letter to Indian Navy chief-of-naval staff, Admiral Karambir Singh last week and a copy of which was acquired by the Philippine News Agency (PNA) Sunday night.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Ashokk » 24 Jun 2020 01:54

KLNMurthy wrote:Hermit-farmer tweet? Kya hai?

https://twitter.com/drapr007?lang=en

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby RaviB » 24 Jun 2020 15:53

Thank you for your kind words Patel ji and Murthy ji.

Philip wrote:In trying to understand the Chinko Long March of the 21st. century,trampling smalle= nations in its path,we must ho back in history and rrcall what was happening to China a few centuries dio,why even a century ago and the emergence of Mao. China was forced into colonisation and exploitation by western white powers.
The famous " Opiuuho experienced untold suffering and misery under the jackboot of imperialism. Japan too earlier was opened up by Yanqui " gunboat diplomacy".

It was Mao who thrice defeated Chiang Kai-shek and his KMT and eventually threw him out of the mainland. Not well- known are the attempts of Mao to make friends and common cause with the US.The '40s,'50s however were when McCarthyism held sway over the US with its infamous "Commie trials".US diplomats even passing on Mao's messages of bonhomie were incarcerated. It eas left to Deng,who was famously quoted as saying " to be rich is glorious", saw the fate of the USSR thanks to Gorbachev who took China on the path of neo- Commie capitalism, ontrolled by the state.

In this pursuit of power and wealth,the Chins have been fuelled by this deep-rooted sense of injustice under colonialism and the imperial jackboot, just as the Nazis under Hitler and most Germans resented the injustices of the one-sided Treaty of Versailles. Ironically it is the US which is responsible for the rise of today's bully of Asia,China. India,considered a " coolie" inferior nation by China,dealt with it in inimitable style in '62 and still imagine that the India of today and its PM are still mired in the
"tides and shallows" of the past. Sadly for China,we've taken our tide "at the flood" and have no wish to play "second fiddle" either in Asia or around the globe...


Philip ji, slight correction about the timeline:

The Sino-Soviet split happened in the 1960s. Deng Xiaoping had tried out some of the economic reforms prior to Mao's death, perhaps as early as in 60s. He was purged twice for thinking about money. Following Mao's death in 1976, Deng got control in 1978 and immediately started with small scale reforms like farmer's markets. He allegedly also sent PLA to its defeat in 1979 in the Vietnam war to get rid of any possible opposition from them. Gorbachev came to power only in 1985, by which time Chinese economic reforms were well under way, so they did not take any lessons from there. In fact it was Gorbachev whose visit in 1989 (coinciding with Tiananmen square protests) that normalised Sino-Soviet ties.

One reason why the Chinese think our reforms won't work is because they see themselves as having paid a price in blood and destruction, like Great Leap Forward, Cultural revolution, etc. to establish a basis to grow from. India hasn't had this thorough break with its history and tradition and therefore, according to their logic, can only have half-hearted reforms and will stagnate. The reality is that we started 15 years after China, so we're just behind due to that. China of course will have massive destruction in the future when its current political system collapses like the USSR.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Philip » 24 Jun 2020 18:49

Deng thought that Gorby was an idiot who lost control of his country and economy. He wanted political reform before economic reform.Deng did the opposite.Tight control on its neo- capatalist economy,Commie Chinko style first,then a little political freedom.Once hundreds of millions of Chinese peasamnts and middle class "got rich" their combative political spirit evaporated in the main. With their stomachs full and seduced by legions of western consumer brands ,the Chinese have little stomach for protest unless the economh hits shit street. The first cracks in the great wall of emperor XI are being seen now,with calculated protests about the govts. handling about the crisis.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 24 Jun 2020 18:52


India Slaps Anti-Dumping Duty On Several Steel Products From China, Vietnam And South Korea

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/india-sla ... outh-korea


Government Likely To Cancel Chinese Firm's Bid In Its Flagship 1,300 Km Long Delhi-Mumbai Expressway Project
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/governmen ... ay-project

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby ricky_v » 25 Jun 2020 08:40

Admins, can we have a separate china watch thread for discussion of news from that country?, this thread's mandate is not broad enough.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-space-exploration-china-satellite/china-puts-final-satellite-into-orbit-to-try-to-rival-gps-network-idUSKBN23U08P
China on Tuesday successfully put into orbit its final Beidou satellite, completing a navigation network years in the making and setting the stage to challenge the U.S.-owned Global Positioning System (GPS)

Many countries using Beidou services are involved in the Belt and Road initiative spearheaded by China to create a modern-day Silk Road of trade and investment.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Prem » 25 Jun 2020 10:14

There is news out in Chinese media that this satellite fell back on Earth after few hours .

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby yensoy » 25 Jun 2020 12:02

RaviB wrote:One reason why the Chinese think our reforms won't work is because they see themselves as having paid a price in blood and destruction, like Great Leap Forward, Cultural revolution, etc. to establish a basis to grow from. India hasn't had this thorough break with its history and tradition and therefore, according to their logic, can only have half-hearted reforms and will stagnate. The reality is that we started 15 years after China, so we're just behind due to that. China of course will have massive destruction in the future when its current political system collapses like the USSR.

This is not about being 15 years behind. In many respects we are not as developed as China was in 2005.

The revolution and its wake resulted in the confiscation of almost all private property, in particular agricultural land and housing. With the resulting 100% grip on land, the Chinese state was able to completely reimagine the geography of the villages, towns and cities. Unopposed and unrestricted, the government was able to go ahead with speedy and massive construction projects. This is what has made the Chinese fantastic civil engineers who can dream up and build just about anything. Having a huge labour pool working under very difficult circumstances (risky jobs, minimum facilities, benefits and pay) has given them a big advantage. With state backed projects being driven top-down, and no local government dissent, timely financing is guaranteed for scheduled completion.

Now the same property, which was owned by the Chinese population at large before they were de-titled, is being sold back to them at astronomical prices. But the property has been improved tremendously - swamplands have been made into cities with excellent roads, schools, facilities - all of which can only be done under eminent domain. Further, even displaced people (where areas are being redeveloped) are given excellent compensation in the form of new apartments in line with their previous tenancies (not ownership, just tenancies) as well as interim housing during the redevelopment process.

Even the construction workers are well taken care of. Temporary 2 or 3 storey accommodation is built on site - typically steel trusses and some paneling, with conveniences like a/c and a common kitchen facility for all. The result is a highly productive workforce who only need to worry about their jobs, not about dealing with landlords or how to get food after their shift is over.

China has "lifted itself from its bootstraps". The newly empowered youth, who are the target customers of new accommodation, have good jobs and the ability to pay off the huge prices that these properties command. A good part of the money goes into the local administration's coffers (land auctions), and another to the big developers (possibly CPC linked crony capitalists). Local governments doesn't need to worry about taxes just yet because of this revenue stream, instead they can plough back their funds into infra and incentives to local companies - subsidizing exports and contributing to GDP growth.

All this is good till house prices stagnate or start falling.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby george » 25 Jun 2020 13:47

Hi Gents, First post here. Thanks for letting me in.

There are these three dams in China -
Danjiangkou Dam
Three Gorges
Sanmenxia Dam

Wouldnt taking these three out result in more damage than a 100 nukes? Due to the floods all are at peak storage as well. Or are we too dharmic to even contemplate such actions?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby yensoy » 25 Jun 2020 14:04

george wrote:Hi Gents, First post here. Thanks for letting me in.
There are these three dams in China -
Danjiangkou Dam
Three Gorges
Sanmenxia Dam
Wouldnt taking these three out result in more damage than a 100 nukes? Due to the floods all are at peak storage as well. Or are we too dharmic to even contemplate such actions?

Our enmity is not with the larger Chinese population. The last poster who proposed attacks on Chinese civilians got banned for a month. Your proposal is outside of BRF parameters.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby george » 25 Jun 2020 14:11

yensoy wrote:
george wrote:Hi Gents, First post here. Thanks for letting me in.
There are these three dams in China -
Danjiangkou Dam
Three Gorges
Sanmenxia Dam
Wouldnt taking these three out result in more damage than a 100 nukes? Due to the floods all are at peak storage as well. Or are we too dharmic to even contemplate such actions?

Our enmity is not with the larger Chinese population. The last poster who proposed attacks on Chinese civilians got banned for a month. Your proposal is outside of BRF parameters.


Ok, so, we are fine with suggestions like cobalt and gold isotopes in fission bombs that will impact the entire planet but this aint kosher.

btw the CCP is 10 million strong. Good luck finding only the bad Chinese.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Avtar Singh » 25 Jun 2020 14:48

^^^^^
all chinese will know who among them are CCP.

The most secure victory will come from getting china to the point where the chinese
themselves will clearout the CCP..

See my previous post of a conversation with a HKG red taxi driver and how much those
chinese hate the "main-landers"

The fissures they, pakchin, try to exploit in India are also in abundance in their own countries
but I dont think India does much to exploit them. But I am sure the Anglos are getting busier
on this front.


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