Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby rajpa » 18 Sep 2020 08:18

Also Xi simply lacks the charisma and pull of Mao or any of the other top communist leaders across the world to be able to keep the party together. He is just a boring schemer. He is trying to copy paste tactics from Mao, Deng etc in the form of the Red Book, XJBT etc but has nothing original or powerful to offer to the party or to the people at a critical time like this.

Yawn. Time to go.

Or wait. Maybe the whole Wuhan Virus thing was his idea. :((

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby arshyam » 18 Sep 2020 08:24

Suraj wrote:India doesn't carry such feelings about Chinese. Heck, we don't even fear the Japanese - unlike rest of Asia that got overrun, we stopped the IJA at our borders and served as the base to take on the Japanese in China. Naturally the Chinese don't appreciate anything we did in that context. First the turbaned Indian soldier humiliated them. Then the turbaned Indian soldier was part of liberating them. All the while they could do nothing.

Specifically for the CPC, they played little to no part in liberating Chinese from Japan's clutches in WW2. Mao famously cooled his heels letting Chiang Kai-shek's KMT troops bear the brunt of Japanese aggression, so he could later deploy his hitherto conserved strength against the tired KMT. Eventually, that's what happened leading to the full communist takeover and KMT had to flee to Taiwan.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 18 Sep 2020 08:35

suryag wrote:BTW, I see that he is the head of all the committees is it a normal thing to have the head of CCP lead all these committees or is it just Eleven doing it?

It is all Xi's approach. Li Keqiang was his competitor for Presidency in 2012. He belongs to the Hu Jintao clique and is from the Communist Youth League, both of which are disliked by Xi. The reason is simple, Hu Jintao had preferred Li not Xi. The Youth League has often been described as the 'finishing school' for Communists before higher positions are assumed in the Party and the Government. Xi's approach is different, as he doesn't want potential threats from any source. He wants Youth League to carry out its original mandate of engaging with the youth and carrying the message of Communism and now "Xi's Thoughts". He is afraid possibly of the Youth League factions (aka tuanpai) conspiring against him. So, he has starved the Youth League of funds and reorganized it totally. Hu Jintao himself and now Li Keqiang, Wang Yang (Chairman CPPCC and ex-Vice Premier), the much younger Hu Chunhua (a Vice Premier and a potential successor to Xi) and many others have all come through Youth League and can be considered as tuanpai. So, there is tension within the party.

So, Xi cleverly accepted Li as Premier but ensured his wings would be clipped in every respect. He formed what are called 'Small Committees' or steering committees for handling important portfolios, in each of which he was the Chair, thereby nullifying Li's influence or decision-making powers.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Suraj » 18 Sep 2020 08:47

Very interesting reference to Li Keqiang , SSridhar ! Back then, Xi and Li were described together, but if you look at press now, Li has been basically purged from his original lofty standing . When was the last time Li appeared in the news in the context of anything important ?

Historically, all leaders since Deng have had a visible Premier . Jiang Zemin had Zhu Rongji . Hu Jintao had Wen Jiabao.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 18 Sep 2020 08:51

Suraj wrote:When was the last time Li appeared in the news in the context of anything important ?

Oh, that was in late January this year when cleverly Xi asked Li to take charge of Wuhan to battle the corona !! And, then, Xi disappeared for several weeks (as he did in c. 2012 too) !!

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby rajpa » 18 Sep 2020 08:54

One question to ask is who are Xi's friends at the top at this time..?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 18 Sep 2020 09:10

rajpa wrote:One question to ask is who are Xi's friends at the top at this time..?

The current PSC has 7 members. Two of them, Li Keqiang, Wang Yang (Chairman CPPCC) cannot be admirers of Xi.

Well known Xi loyalists in the PSC are Li Zhanshu (Chief of Staff in Xi's office and Chairman NPC), Wang Huning (advises Xi on policy matters including the 'Chinese Dream' process) and Zhao Leji (directs anti-graft and oversees the CCP), Han Zheng (Vice Premier)

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby arshyam » 18 Sep 2020 09:21

ramana wrote:
SBajwa wrote:https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news/why-is-sikh-soldier-a-bogeyman-for-chinese-army-at-ladakh/story-4FuLsEa991pKKEuafxmKcL_amp.html

Not far from the Rezang La-Rechin La ridgeline that has emerged as a key friction point between Indian and Chinese troops, the Chushul brigade headquarters mess still houses artefacts including a gold statue of the Laughing Buddha seized by the Sikh regiments more than a century ago.

The soldiers were part of an eight-nation mission to neutralise China’s Boxer Rebellion at the turn of the last century, an uprising led by young farmers and workers against foreign influence. The British Army had brought in Sikh and Punjab regiments among others.

The alliance troops moved into Beijing after the Boxer fighters threatened foreigners and kept 400 foreigners holed up in Beijing’s Foreign Legation Quarter. The siege lasted 55 days before 20,000 alliance troops reached Beijing and fought their way in. Nearly 8,000 of them belonged to the British Army from India, many of them Sikh and Punjab regiments. After the victory, according to an account by one Indian sepoy, the British army indulged in looting: French and Russian troops killed civilians and raped women.

REGIMENTS DECORATED FOR LIFTING BOXER REBELLION SIEGE
91 Punjab Regiment
24 Punjab Regiment
20 Brownlow’s Punjabis
51 Sikh Regiment
14 Sikh Regiment
7 Rajput Regiment
122 Rajputana Infantry Regiment
4 Gorkha Regiment
88 Carnatic Infantry Regiment
6 Jat Light Infantry Regiment
15 Cavalry Regiment
2 Lancers Regiment
130 Baluch Regiment and
126 Baluch Regiment
The statue of the Laughing Buddha at the army mess in Chushul was one of the items brought back by the soldiers. A gilded bronze bell dating back to the 1368-1644 Ming dynasty - one of the missing 16 - looted by a British general, was eventually returned by the Indian Army to Beijing’s Temple of Heaven in 1995.

In his seminal book, India’s China War, Australian journalist Neville Maxwell said the Chinese leadership used the humiliation suffered after the revolution to build a movement to restore the country. Maxwell also believed there was a link between this mindset and the 1962 war.

An Indian army commander said this historical context could be a reason why the China’s People’s Liberation Army psy-ops focuses so much on the Punjabi, or Sikh soldiers.

This waas the subject of Charles Heston movie "55 Days in Peking:

Maj. Sarbans Singh "Battle Honors of the Indian Army" lists Pekin 1900 and China 1900 to a number of battalions. Seven battalions were transfered to Pakistan. And six battalions were disbanded.
Also Skinners Horse or 1st Horse rode into Peking alongside US 6th Cavalry.
It was the Indian brigades that succeeded in reaching Peking to relieve the seige.

Earlier from 1858 to 1862 there were more battle honors awarded for action in China. Example Pekin 1860.
ramana wrote:Also those off you in Chennaipatnam, please go to Fort St. Goerge Museum and find the Chinese Army helmets seized in Burma campaign in 1880s.
There is also a trophy from Persia when Madras Regiment was deployed in the 1800s.
Suraj wrote:Actually it is a very good idea to move some of those TFTA sardars from the stupid clown show at Wagah (it's over now, is it ?) and instead utilize them to stand around during negotiations with China. Plays on the the latent negative mental imagery they have been raised upon.

Mainland Chinese, HKers and even older Taiwanese who are KMT folks who fled to Taiwan during civil war - all of them have this same mental image burned into their heads of scary and wicked turbaned Indian soldiers. It's a culturally ingrained memory of theirs.
ks_sachin wrote:I read that what was seared into the Chinese memory was of head geared Indians know towing to the British and hence their rather derogatory references to Indians..

Not sure if southern troops of those days wore turbans, or whether it is a stereotype arising from a few famous events like the Boxer rebellion. But Indian troops were involved in China right from the 1st Anglo-China war of 1840-2. Apart from one Bengal Army battalion that was part of the initial deployment, 10 Madras Army regiments* (7 Infantry regiments and 3 Sapper companies) were deployed here, and the fighting took Canton (today's Guanghzhou) and besieged Nanjing on the banks of the Yangstse. This eventually resulted in China signing the Treat of Nanking (modern day Nanjing) which ceded Hong Kong to the British, opened up a bunch of ports for foreign trade, including Shanghai, etc.

From the Chinese PoV, this was the first of the "unequal treaties" and the beginning of their century of humiliation. Even I had mixed feelings when reading about the exploits of our troops abroad - so to some extent, I can understand the Chinese angst. The communists have done well to capitalize on this feeling and reinforce sterotypes.

The even more historical legend of Bodhidharma introducing martial arts to China adds to their feeling of emasculation as well, I suppose.

* Just finished reading a book about the history of Madras troops (Empire's First Soldiers by D.P. Ramachandran) and it has these details. Frankly, it was eye-opening to learn about the exploits of fighting troops from a hitherto unknown part of the country. We all have been drilled into thinking India's fighting strength comes only from the northern heartland, but this book busts that myth. Funnily (or tragically, if you will), this myth is strongest in the southern part of the country, hence the lower numbers in recruits!

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby rajpa » 18 Sep 2020 09:24

Li Zhanshu looks like a corrupt womanizer. He probably manages some of Xi's money.

Wang Huning is the intellectual who has spent time in the West, probably in charge of the copy paste of ideas and propaganda.

Han Zheng seems to be the minder of Le Keqiang.

Zhao Leji is the enforcer of the purges.

A good bunch of "loyalists"... What keeps them together other than just sharing of power or serving the master?

If these people can be coopted, where will the power struggle originate? Le Keqiang??

What is Jiang Zhemin upto in this mix??

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby AshishA » 18 Sep 2020 09:29

RaviB wrote:Some Sun Tzu counter propaganda suggestions, as requested by suryag Garu. Mods please forgive if this is out of bounds

If using twitter, best to create a Chinese named account such as "Anna Wang 王安旎" or "Rainbow Sun 孙彩红" before you start

是不是A3军囚禁了120名中国士兵,所以我们才推不出去?
Is it true that A3 army are holding 120 Chinese soldiers prisoner and that's why we can't push them out?
A3 or Asan is a racist term for Indians, so this should sound authentic to Chinese ears.

Also nice to twist sources to create scary stories

我的军朋友说我们的23名士兵在印度军队的射击中丧生,但请不要散布 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-54067400
My PLA friend said 23 of our soldiers have died in firing by Indian army but please don't spread this

解放军为什么要掩盖伤亡人数? 寡妇和母亲难道不该在坟墓上放花吗?
Why is the PLA hiding the number of casualties? Don't the widows and mothers deserve to lay flowers on their graves?

我很害怕我的兄弟无法幸免于藏寒。 我们为什么要为这个无用的荒地而战?
I am scared that my brother won't survive the Tibetan cold. Why are we fighting over this useless wasteland?

老虎在北京变胖,苍蝇在西藏死亡。
The tigers get fat in Beijing and the flies die in Tibet.
I am quite proud of this one, it even rhymes

印度军队以国家荣誉来纪念战争中的死者,而我们的军队则将我们的烈士们丢在没有标记的坟墓中。
The Indian army is honouring its war dead with state honours and our army is dumping our martyrs in unmarked graves.

与印度的战争并不容易,他们得到了山姆大叔的完全支持,我们只有小巴
War with India is not easy, they have complete support from the Uncle Sam, we only have the minibu
巴基斯坦 bajisidan is Pakistan and 小巴 xiaoba means little Pak or minibus

汉兵为什么要死以保护落后的藏人?
Why should Han soldiers die to protect backward Tibetans?

These are the ones I could think of. If other rumour or statements sound nice, please post them and I can create suitable Chinese versions. Please forgive the racist tone of some of these, I'm trying to do an authentic role play of the Average Zhou.


Adding to the excellent suggestions above, when choosing a profile pic for the fake social media account choose images from this site so that it cannot be reverse searched. Keep refreshing till you come person with Chinese features.

https://thispersondoesnotexist.com/

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby arshyam » 18 Sep 2020 09:31

SBajwa wrote:https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news/why-is-sikh-soldier-a-bogeyman-for-chinese-army-at-ladakh/story-4FuLsEa991pKKEuafxmKcL_amp.html

REGIMENTS DECORATED FOR LIFTING BOXER REBELLION SIEGE
91 Punjab Regiment
24 Punjab Regiment
20 Brownlow’s Punjabis
51 Sikh Regiment
14 Sikh Regiment
7 Rajput Regiment
122 Rajputana Infantry Regiment
4 Gorkha Regiment
88 Carnatic Infantry Regiment
6 Jat Light Infantry Regiment
15 Cavalry Regiment
2 Lancers Regiment
130 Baluch Regiment and
126 Baluch Regiment

Not sure if this list is comprehensive and includes all Indian units (the article does not give a source), the book I quoted above mentions the following Madras Army units being awarded the Theatre Honour "China" for their role in quelling the Boxer Rebellion:
1st, 3rd, 28th, 31st Madras Infantry Regiments
3rd, 6th Companies of the Madras Sappers and Miners

The 88th Carnatic Infantry mentioned in the article is not mentioned in the book, so there seems to be some discrepancy.

Note that I am only commenting w.r.t. the Madras Army units here and not about the other Indian units deployed for this op.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Suraj » 18 Sep 2020 09:32

Jiang Zemin still commands standing in the CPC. During the 70th anniversary celebrations last year, the old bat was among the major party leaders viewing the parade, standing near Xi. The Shanghai faction remains strong and well . They might be the ones to throw Xi out .

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby rajpa » 18 Sep 2020 09:35

Who are all the prominent members of the Shanghai faction? Where does their power originate from?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby hnair » 18 Sep 2020 09:38

RaviB, bravo. We should translate:

“Why sending our child to die? It is a territory where not even a blade of grass grows, about 17,000 feet high. Ladakh is a useless uninhabitable land. Not a blade of grass grows there. We did not even know where it was!"

And add "Now our 120 soldiers died” to the above

There should be some use to those 1960s lunatic statements of Nehrooji and Sunday Sue wisdom says "Using Nehruji against NaPoohji (Xitless) is highest form of defense"

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby rajpa » 18 Sep 2020 09:39

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Huning
Wang Huning appears to be from the Shanghai faction.

So is Han Zheng
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Zheng

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Leji
Zhao Leji is Xi loyalist?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Suraj » 18 Sep 2020 09:49

Xpost from border thread:
rajpa wrote:
Suraj wrote:Correct . The turbaned Indian soldier is an object of fear and loathing . Generations of Chinese kids have been raised by mothers and grandmothers telling them to behave / eat their food or else they will be given away to an A-San .

The sight of a regiment of turbaned Sikhs is the abiding memory of India for many foreign nations in past wars - France (as an ally) and Germans in WW1/2 , China during the Boxer Rebellion... for the latter, the mental image of a white general with his troop of ruthless turbaned soldiers from India, is the ‘century of humiliation’ picture that the Chinese learn in school . All Chinese are taught that yes the British and French brought them to their knees, but everyone also knows the soldiers were turbaned Indians.

India has no corresponding object of fear involving China other than one botched war that everyone knows is because of high level incompetence. Almost all major rerisive memes about Indians on Chinese cyberspace are language originally meant to describe turbaned Indian soldiers . For them this imagery is no different from a hakenkreuz sporting SS officer.


While we feel for the Chinese that they had to go through a century of humiliation, and by the way so did we, but they are putting themselves in a very similar point in history where they are enticing the "imperial" powers to gang up against them and smack their butts off.

It is like a little boy beaten up so bad that he grows up and becomes a serial murderer with his little psycho gang, taking revenge against all society. Fits the profile of Xi very well - with his fights against practically every country in the world except for two terrorist gangmembers (Porks and Nokos). Xitler is the reincarnation of the Versailles moment for the Chinese. He probably weeps copiously, with his wife by side, with images of Sikhs in Beijing, or perhaps Japanese in Nanjing, running through his head, picked up from some books in his father's library.

(Comparing them to India, we seem to have grown up better well adjusted.)

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby AshishA » 18 Sep 2020 09:51

^^ Xi's second wife.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby rajpa » 18 Sep 2020 09:51

Just a superficial analysis of these people suggests clearly that Xi may be the compromise candidate among various factions such as the shopkeepers (Hu Jintao etc), entrepreneurs (Shanghai), CCP loyalists (Youth League) and Xi's personal loyalists.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Suraj » 18 Sep 2020 09:52

Xposting:
From hnair:
Suraj wrote:
jamwal wrote:A lot of soldiers including Rajputs and a few others wore turbans during WW1 and WW2.

Yes and that's why I did't say sardar but 'turbaned Indian soldier'. It doesn't matter to them because their mental picture is still that of a collection of fierce swarthy guys in turbans, uniforms and rifles under a white man, humiliating them and destroying their last dynasty. I think a lot of Indians don't quite appreciate the culture memory of the turbaned Indian soldier that Chinese have. For them, it's similar to the imagery of the Japanese soldier with their Nehru topi hats, but minus the corresponding tales of atrocities. In a past relationship I was surprised to encounter a reference to this amongst an older gen Taiwanese gent who is mainland born. I didn't know anything of it, and he explained he has nothing against current day Indians, but described the cultural history of that symbol of fear. You'd think he was describing SS/SA/Abwehr, but no, he was referring to turbaned Indian soldiers.


Bruce Lee movies are all about :(( and then :evil: at all sorts of H&D wreckers of Cheen. Remember that scene outside some club where a Cheeni's racist depiction of Sardar asks Lee to bugger off? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: In reality, the sardar would have curled his toes around Lee's perineum and sailed Lee's ass across the town square, but then movie needs to make money for the Shaw Bros, so Lee beats up some japanese dude wrapped in a lungi or something.



Wont have been in the movie, if it was not a sore bone in their throat that some Turbinator says in a wooden voice "B-haag jaaa, cheeni s-a-ale!" whenever they clamor around the entrance. Even worse, these guys might have seen rich Indian opium types going in casually.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Suraj » 18 Sep 2020 09:53

Xposting:
Suraj wrote:
hnair wrote:Bruce Lee movies are all about :(( and then :evil: at all sorts of H&D wreckers of Cheen. Remember that scene outside some club where a Cheeni's racist depiction of Sardar asks Lee to bugger off? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: In reality, the sardar would have curled his toes around Lee's perineum and sailed Lee's ass across the town square, but then movie needs to make money for the Shaw Bros, so Lee beats up some japanese dude wrapped in a lungi or something.

Thanks for bringing that movie up. I remember seeing that scene and thinking that 'Indian' is about as convincing as Mickey Rooney as the crudely sterotyped Japanese neighbor in Breakfast at Tiffanys.

Most Indians have an uncomfortable view of colonial era Indian troops, but the reality in other parts of the world is that they left a very deep impression on the local population, such that generations later, that is their principal mental view of Indians. There's a famous and widely published French press image from WW1 I think, captioned 'Brave Indian troops march through {some French town} after throwing out Kaiser's wicked German troops' . For that generation of French people, that was the talismanic view of India. In my opinion, that is also the reason for France's distinct policy towards India compared US or UK - three generations of French people have a direct civilizational memory of Indian soldiers defending their land. I have never been to Neuve Chapelle but it's a place I want to visit.

Similarly, Even 4-5 generations since the Qing Dynasty's last days, the abiding Chinese view of India are those humiliating A-sans who lorded over them (while they were doped out of their minds on opium). The CPC finds it very easy to mock Indian democracy and gloss over its successes because the audience already has a pronounced confirmation bias that predates the CPC's own existence by decades - they fear and loathe this image of the Indian soldier and take pleasure in seeing us do worse. This isn't just garden variety Middle Kingdom superiority complex - there's a very real sense of latent humiliation carried over several generations, due to 'bad Indian soldier' being used to scare kids into behaving.

India doesn't carry such feelings about Chinese. Heck, we don't even fear the Japanese - unlike rest of Asia that got overrun, we stopped the IJA at our borders and served as the base to take on the Japanese in China. Naturally the Chinese don't appreciate anything we did in that context. First the turbaned Indian soldier humiliated them. Then the turbaned Indian soldier was part of liberating them. All the while they could do nothing.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby rajpa » 18 Sep 2020 09:56

AshishA wrote:^^ Xi's second wife.


Yup. Being a folk singer, she peps up his morale with heroic songs at home.

"So ja mere raaja.
Tu sab ki g**nd le lega".

She is probably a plant by Jiang Zhemin and is Xi's minder. Gives him the pills to keep the catatonic schizophrenia down.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Suraj » 18 Sep 2020 10:02

The Shanghai Faction or Clique, has a long history of several generations of leaders.
Shanghai clique

During Mao’s time, the Gang of Four were mostly Shanghai Gang , and we’re responsible for driving most of the worst excesses of the Red Guards . Deng tried to neuter this faction, but historically the city has generated a large number of leaders, and soon Deng had to contend with Jiang and Zhu Rongji, both of whom were successive Mayor of Shanghai - a very powerful position in Chinese politics - in the late 1980s before being picked to succeed Deng.

Jiang has since led the Shanghai Faction and in my opinion it will have a major role to play in the next leadership struggle single they haven’t had a major leader since Jiang himself .

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby AshishA » 18 Sep 2020 10:06

Suraj wrote:The Shanghai Faction or Clique, has a long history of several generations of leaders.
Shanghai clique

During Mao’s time, the Gang of Four were mostly Shanghai Gang , and we’re responsible for driving most of the worst excesses of the Red Guards . Deng tried to neuter this faction, but historically the city has generated a large number of leaders, and soon Deng had to contend with Jiang and Zhu Rongji, both of whom were successive Mayor of Shanghai - a very powerful position in Chinese politics - in the late 1980s before being picked to succeed Deng.

Jiang has since led the Shanghai Faction and in my opinion it will have a major role to play in the next leadership struggle single they haven’t had a major leader since Jiang himself .

Didn't Xitler try to neuter their influence by those so called corruption campaign against all of Jiang and his gang? A few years back their gang was in a extremely precarious position. But as they haven't been wiped out yet means Xi's position is itself under threat or he's influence has weakened.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 18 Sep 2020 10:22

Suraj wrote:The Shanghai Faction or Clique, has a long history of several generations of leaders.
. . . Mayor of Shanghai - a very powerful position in Chinese politics - . . .

Yes, the Shanghai Clique has been powerful, but is diminished these days. Xi is now promoting the Shaanxi Clique. Xi hails from here which also contains the old capital of Imperial Dynasties, Xi'an, also the starting point of the Silk Road. Zhao Leji belongs to this Clique.

Interestingly, Han Zheng the Vice Premier is a part of the Shanghai Clique, having been the Mayor of Shanghai also, but also appears a confidant of Xi. Interesting.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 18 Sep 2020 10:49

Don't know what signal is being conveyed.

No plan to exclude Huawei, ZTE from 5G infra contracts: Sanjay Dhotre, Min. of State, MEIT - Business Standard
In a new twist to the saga over whether Chinese companies Huawei Technologies and ZTE can supply telecom gear, Minister of State for Electronics and Information Technology Sanjay Dhotre said the government had no plan to exclude them from 5G network infrastructure contracts.

Dhotre was giving a written reply to MPs’ queries in Parliament on Wednesday.

The announcement quells fears among some telcos that Chinese players might be banned from participating in 5G trials and roll outs. The Department of Telecommunications (DoT), while deposing before the IT parliamentary committee, had said a final decision on their fate would be taken by the Home Ministry. As a result, leading Indian telcos, taking their cue from the DoT, put in additional applications for collaboration with OEMs in cities where they had already given applications based on tie-ups either with Huawei or ZTE for 5G trials.

The telcos put in additional applications against the backdrop of growing escalation in border tensions between India and China, accompanied by a strong movement to ban Chinese products.

Even before the border skirmishes started, India had been under pressure from the US, which is campaigning across the world to ban the use of Chinese 5G gear on the grounds that it is allegedly used for spying. However, despite banning various popular Chinese apps, neither the DoT nor any other government department clarified its stand on Chinese telecom equipment companies. Telcos say they had been willing to withdraw the applications they had made with the Chinese companies if the government had communicated its intention clearly but with no clear signal, they decided to put in additional applications.

So, for example, according to sources, Huawei had tied up with Airtel and Reliance Jio in Bengaluru and with Vodafone Idea in Delhi. ZTE had tied up with Airtel for Kolkata.

But in July, the telcos felt compelled to give fresh applications in most of these cities, this time with Nokia, Ericsson or Samsung. For instance, Airtel gave an application with Ericsson in Bengaluru and with Nokia in Kolkata.

Reliance Jio, which had tied the knot with Huawei in Bengaluru, gave an additional application that it would do trials based on its own 5G technology, something it is already doing in Mumbai (where it also has an application with Samsung).


“Many of the telcos have given additional applications, but the original applications have not been withdrawn. So we are still hopeful that it is not the end,” said the executive of a leading Chinese gear maker. Despite Communications Minister Ravi Shankar Prasad promising in June 2019 that the government will give 5G spectrum for trial runs in 100 days, telcos say they are still waiting for the green signal.

In the same month, the Wireless Planning & Coordination Cell (WPC) released a memorandum defining the scope of 5G technology trials with the aim of regulating licences. In line with this, the WPC was readying to allocate spectrum to telcos which had made requests in the 850 MHz, 3500 MHz and 26 GHz bands for the 5G trial runs.

However, the DoT raised concerns about the need to get security clearances before a telco could conduct 5G trials. Many telcos submitted applications for security clearances but heard nothing for a while.

In December, the DoT had a meeting with telcos and asked them to file applications by 15 January 2020. Later, the telcos were called, along with their OEM partners, for a presentation in the DoT on 20 January.

Meanwhile, apart from the new additional applications, Reliance Jio announced that it had developed its own 5G technology in July. Two days after the announcement, it asked the DoT for trial spectrum to test its technology in the 3500 MHz and the millimeter band for two years in Delhi and Mumbai. In its earlier application, it has made a request to test its own technology only in Mumbai.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby pankajs » 18 Sep 2020 11:38

GOI is trying to be too clever ...

IIRC, recently in reply to a question, it was stated in parliament that the India China relation had NOT deterioration at all!

Imagine my surprise.

I am all for measured statement even in the face of grave provocations and also of bending the truth to suit diplomacy BUT I am NOT for wholescale butchering of the truth for any purpose.

GOI still has some hopes to resolve the standoff peacefully and thus holding out the olive branch of allowing Chinese telecom gear manufacturers into the Indian market! It simply does not make sense on either count ..

The Chinese OTOH, will read this as our weakness and out desire to make peace at any cost. Not a good signal to an adversary like CCP who push to exploit every weakness.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Pratyush » 18 Sep 2020 13:56

SSridhar wrote:Don't know what signal is being conveyed.

No plan to exclude Huawei, ZTE from 5G infra contracts: Sanjay Dhotre, Min. of State, MEIT - Business Standard



Good signal being sent by government. By outright ban they will tell PRC that you have nothing to lose. But by informally instituting policies ambiguity is brought in and India companies are encouraged to seek non PRC sources.

Classic double speak.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby rpartha » 18 Sep 2020 14:29

^^^^ also it keeps other competitors honest - they shouldn't hike the price thinking that they are the only players in the field...

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby RaviB » 18 Sep 2020 14:54

A correction to my earlier post. I made a logical error, nobody in the current generation has a brother
So
我很害怕我的兄弟无法幸免于藏寒。 我们为什么要为这个无用的荒地而战?
I am scared that my brother won't survive the Tibetan cold. Why are we fighting over this useless wasteland?


should be changed to:

我很害怕我敏感的儿子无法幸免于藏寒。 我们为什么要为这个无用的荒地而战?
I am scared that my sensitive son won't survive the Tibetan cold. Why are we fighting over this useless wasteland?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby RaviB » 18 Sep 2020 15:03

hnair wrote:RaviB, bravo. We should translate:

“Why sending our child to die? It is a territory where not even a blade of grass grows, about 17,000 feet high. Ladakh is a useless uninhabitable land. Not a blade of grass grows there. We did not even know where it was!"

And add "Now our 120 soldiers died” to the above

There should be some use to those 1960s lunatic statements of Nehrooji and Sunday Sue wisdom says "Using Nehruji against NaPoohji (Xitless) is highest form of defense"


Thank you hnair ji. I have crafted your suggestion as follows:
为什么要送我们的孩子去死? 在这片土地上,连一片草都不长。 拉达克是一片无人居住的土地。我们甚至都不知道它在哪里! 我们的124名士兵已经死了,我们想要多少个没有儿子的母亲?
Why send our child to die? It is a territory where not even a blade of grass grows. Ladakh is a useless uninhabitable land. We did not even know where it was! 124 of our soldiers are already dead, how many more sonless mothers do we want?

I changed the number to 124, because the 4 is inauspicious as it rhymes with death.
Last edited by RaviB on 18 Sep 2020 15:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby AshishA » 18 Sep 2020 15:04

RaviB wrote:A correction to my earlier post. I made a logical error, nobody in the current generation has a brother
So
我很害怕我的兄弟无法幸免于藏寒。 我们为什么要为这个无用的荒地而战?
I am scared that my brother won't survive the Tibetan cold. Why are we fighting over this useless wasteland?


should be changed to:

我很害怕我敏感的儿子无法幸免于藏寒。 我们为什么要为这个无用的荒地而战?
I am scared that my sensitive son won't survive the Tibetan cold. Why are we fighting over this useless wasteland?


When I google translated the Chinese sentence into English, it was fairly accurate to what you had written. The only difference was in place of 'for' it was 'over'

So does it mean, Google translate is reliable for creating these sentences in Chinese?
This is what came when I used Google translate to convert the above English sentence into Chinese

恐怕我敏感的儿子无法忍受寒冷。我们为什么要为这个无用的荒地而战?

How accurate is the above sentence RaviB ji?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby RaviB » 18 Sep 2020 15:14

AshishA wrote:
RaviB wrote:A correction to my earlier post. I made a logical error, nobody in the current generation has a brother
So

should be changed to:

我很害怕我敏感的儿子无法幸免于藏寒。 我们为什么要为这个无用的荒地而战?
I am scared that my sensitive son won't survive the Tibetan cold. Why are we fighting over this useless wasteland?


When I google translated the Chinese sentence into English, it was fairly accurate to what you had written. The only difference was in place of 'for' it was 'over'

So does it mean, Google translate is reliable for creating these sentences in Chinese?
This is what came when I used Google translate to convert the above English sentence into Chinese

恐怕我敏感的儿子无法忍受寒冷。我们为什么要为这个无用的荒地而战?

How accurate is the above sentence RaviB ji?


"For" and "over" both carry a similar meaning in this sentence, so that's fine.

In this sentence 恐怕我敏感的儿子无法忍受寒冷。the pronoun is missing so it sounds odd. "我很害怕" is a pretty standard phrase for "I am very afraid (of)", so it's better to use that. (If you speak Hindi, the difference is "darta hoon ki..." versus "mujhe dar hai ki...", so although 恐怕 is correct, it is odd)

In general, I would suggest using deepl.com for translation, they have an English to simplified Chinese option. They tend to have a more fluid rather than a word for word translation, which sounds natural.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby AshishA » 18 Sep 2020 15:31

^^ Thanks for the insight. The Chinese have been info starved by their govt and in this instant gratification world, they are desperate for info and can devour any information. A way to do it is to first tweet the info in Chinese and then spread it through the forums and then if one of those Indian osint account tweets it or is picked up by them simultaneously, it will surely make it's way to the Chinese forums.

Btw I never knew AIR has a world service too. And that too in different languages like Chinese, Russian or Arabic.

http://airworldservice.org/chinese/

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby RaviB » 18 Sep 2020 16:50

BTW there's an anti-China tweeter called Jennifer Zeng. If nothing else, retweeting her stuff is also good.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby suryag » 18 Sep 2020 19:11

RaviB garu - looks like your punch line is coming true "I am scared that my sensitive son won't survive the Tibetan cold. Why are we fighting over this useless wasteland?" reports of soldiers being carried to the base hospital

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Ashokk » 18 Sep 2020 20:22

Trump administration to ban Americans from downloading TikTok, WeChat on Sunday
The Trump administration announced Friday morning that it will ban Chinese-owned messaging and payment app WeChat effective Sunday and block new downloads of video-sharing app TikTok on the same day over national security concerns. A broader ban of TikTok will be delayed until Nov. 12, with a takeover of its U.S. operations still in the works.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby pankajs » 18 Sep 2020 20:37

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNmsS6puhIw
Xi Jinping's Global Designs: Unsteady State In China


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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Kati » 18 Sep 2020 22:43

India, US, Australia interested in building China's dream Thailand Kra Canal: A Blow to China

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 180903.cms

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chola » 18 Sep 2020 22:55

Kati wrote:India, US, Australia interested in building China's dream Thailand Kra Canal: A Blow to China

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/india-us-australia-interested-in-building-chinas-dream-kra-canal-project-in-thailand-report/articleshow/78180903.cms


If anyone builds the Kra Canal it will be a boon to Cheen not a blow. They just need a second way to access the Gulf. In fact, if someone else builds it for them even better.

DDM makes no sense.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby sanjayc » 18 Sep 2020 22:56

^^ Won't the builders control right of entry?


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