Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby hnair » 25 Sep 2020 22:05

Philip wrote:Thus PRC nationals in India are spies in reality,plus our entire religious-social-eco-military system is under deep surveillance, where every fact possible is vacuumed out,collated and sent back to Beijing where intel. and cyberwarfare institutions analyse the vast data at hand and devise plans to wage covert war relentlessly below radar,until it feels it's neccessary for an overt stand to mesmerise smaller nations into kowtowing and retreating against its fuller forces,as it planned for Ladakh,with the troops on exercise dividing and making a beeline for PLA objectives on the ground.


Phew that is one long dhoti line to wrap around and shiver!

Fortunately the IA came to the nation ' s rescue by meeting sudden surprise attacks with immense courage and fortitude. The SSF's rude surprise saw it give us the advantage of swift momentum on the mil. chessboard ,checkmating it in game 1.


So in a nutshell, despite all that you wrote in the first line about vast surveillance and grand control centers filled with bright eyed cheeni analysts sipping Shart-bucks coffee, all it took was a few slaps from Indian army to make the billion dollar cyberwarfare institutions with incredible analytical capabilities to crumble? To use Iron Mike's wisdom, if you want to be treated as a superpower, you better have a power-projection plan that outlives a literal punch in the face.

In contrast, the cheap-skating Indian non-state actors used Google's even more massive server farms and Teetar seem to have had far more effect on the Cheeni internal-psyche than these glass buildings in Shanghai we shiver at, had on India. From the cheeni message boards, it is obvious the cheeni public knows India bitch-slapped china recently and their soldiers died, yet no retribution was forthcoming from Xitler. All because of this low budget Indian cyber-tool called "posting".

Personally, I consider the cheeni cyberwarfare institutions are drummed up way beyond their capabilities, for higher budgets by the NSA types. I have posted this before here - Two years back, I had hosted for a day, the gent who used to deal with daily cheeni attacks on khan's smart-grid. He is from that storied little college next to Charles River and is a gilt-carded member of their NSF etc. From what he says there are tons of daily attacks from cheen, but nearly all are low-class spam types attempted by 10-center equivalents who want to log a daily task report that says "Logged 10 attacks on Chattanooga's substation" etc. The serious ones gets contained and a "repercussion" gets authorized. He says India is doing a decent job as per his estimate and once a while, the rest of the world does sent a harsh message back to China's grid, which we never hear of :lol:

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby hnair » 25 Sep 2020 22:12

The PRC people on the ground In India are mostly either long-duration tourists or employees of contractors. Neither category seem to mingle well with local public or try to integrate into the cultural scene. The odd vlogger or blogger seem to provide a "stream of consciousness" or slice of life kind of output. I dont see any "influencer" type, other than Tiktok acting as an "enabler", until PM Modi threw it over the compound wall.

If they are some NOC agents, then they are doing a piss poor job by reading only local newspapers and filing reports. Like I said above, google would be a lot better and cheaper option than getting your belly lining eroded by human food. There is nothing about India, that a google search cant throw up, including deep analysis of what is wrong with Indian military etc. The thing is they dont really seem to know how to deal with a basic punch in the face.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 25 Sep 2020 23:51

Not sure why Indian, SK, Japan guys haven't been able to nip this in bud.

MG Motor India to invest Rs 1,000 crore to boost capacity at Gujarat plant, mulling another manufacturing plant
https://www.deshgujarat.com/2020/09/25/ ... ing-plant/

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby g.sarkar » 26 Sep 2020 03:22

https://thediplomat.com/2020/09/chinas- ... -business/
China’s Air Force Might Be Back in the Nuclear Business
Circumstantial evidence suggests that China now possesses a full nuclear triad.
By Roderick Lee, September 09, 2020

The Department of Defense’s recent 2020 China Military Power Report reiterated an assessment first made in the 2018 China Military Power Report: that the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) has re-assigned the PLA Air Force (PLAAF) with a nuclear counterattack mission after a several-decade-long hiatus. (The PLAAF conducted most of the PLA’s early nuclear testing, but the PLA then-Second Artillery, now Rocket Force, later took on the role as China’s primary nuclear force.) This assessment is based on the fact that the new H-6N bomber is capable of carrying a new air-launched ballistic missile, currently in development, that may be nuclear-capable.
Unlike platforms that the PLA explicitly associates with nuclear missions, such as intercontinental ballistic missiles and ballistic missile submarines, it is harder to positively demonstrate China’s intent to use long-range bombers as part of a nuclear triad just because they are technically capable of delivering a nuclear payload. However, there is now a growing body of evidence to suggest that China has created an operational bomber unit tasked with conducting nuclear strikes, alongside the acquisition of weapon systems needed to conduct air-launched nuclear strikes.
Where Did the H-6Ns Go?
The first piece of evidence suggesting that the PLA has elevated a new bomber unit is the disappearance of China’s new H-6N bombers.
The PLA finally unveiled the new H-6 variant, capable of aerial refueling, at its 70th National Anniversary military parade in 2019. Although the refueling probe and semi-recessed underside fuselage, capable of mounting an air-launched ballistic missile, attracted the most attention, the numbers painted on the side of the aircraft merit equal scrutiny. The three H-6Ns featured in the parade had “55301,” “55302” and “55034” painted onto their fuselages. The PLAAF uses these numbers, called “bort numbers,” to identify the unit to which a particular aircraft belongs. But the 553XX numbering scheme does not conform to any known PLAAF bomber unit. To further complicate issues, these aircraft cannot be found at any known PLA H-6 base on publicly available overhead imagery dating from after the parade, nor in any handheld photographs released by PLA official press sources. However, it is possible that the PLAAF may have stationed this aircraft at an airfield not previously associated with an active H-6 unit.
Facility Built for Nuclear War
Enter Neixiang Airfield. Although historical Google Earth imagery shows that this airfield only saw periodic use hosting transport aircraft from 2010 to 2015, it now appears to be a facility built with nuclear operations in mind. In July 2017, the PLAAF initiated a major renovation of the airfield to include larger aprons, large aircraft shelters capable of accommodating aircraft up to 36 meters in wingspan, and adjacent garrison facilities for aircrew and other personnel. By April 2019, it had completed the large aircraft shelters. While no publicly available imagery shows any aircraft in open areas since the PLA completed the airfield renovations, the latest imagery from May 2020 shows runway skid marks consistent with those found exclusively at other H-6 bases. This suggests that the missing H-6Ns may in fact be stationed at Neixiang.
......
Gautam

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby LakshmanPST » 26 Sep 2020 08:17



While most of the disputes mentioned in this video are already known to most of us, the interesting part is China's claims over Nepalese territory...
That is something new to me... China claims more than 10% of Nepalese territory....

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Philip » 26 Sep 2020 09:56

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Last edited by Philip on 26 Sep 2020 16:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Philip » 26 Sep 2020 16:34

Examine the PRC's speed with which it has modernised its military.Where did the tech come from? The US and West! Stolen miltech enabled it to modernise at warp speed. It still can't obtain "toppest drawer" Ru miltech because the Russians are more careful and their tech is less accessible to theft. But the west opening up to the PRC with a swarm of PRC spies all over western countries enabled it to make such rapid advances.

Economically,the globe is depfndent upon the PRC's industrial manufacturing might.India too cannot use the PRC crutch and expect to compete with it.The crutch must be discarded. And let's be honest.The punch on the nose in Ladakh ,which surprised them as they thought they could simply stroll into India, has not seen the PLA go home.On the contrary,they've massively ramped up logistics and reinforcements and expect us to withdraw first!

We have to be more ruthless in our counterattack on the fco. and dpl. front. Entities like auto brand MG,no longer a niche Brit. brand is now Chin owned- and must be boycotted,is advertising today its latest SUV the Gloster.A campaign against MG must be carried out as well as other popular PRC brands.But it is for the GOI to vigorously take the lead.It can tighten the screws even further.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 26 Sep 2020 17:44

Everything chinese should have already started seeing Indian bureaucracy and laws but doesn't seem to have. Just the applications of laws and not getting approvals in time would have them struggling without any official sanctions. People associated with chinese project must have been involved in some infraction at one point or another. From not wearing mask to not filing taxes.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 26 Sep 2020 18:35

Shadow force apart, India needs a China plan - Gurdip Singh Uban, Former SFF Commander, The Hindu

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 26 Sep 2020 18:39

‘Have just 1 car, sold jewellery to pay legal fees’: Anil Ambani
https://www.deshgujarat.com/2020/09/26/ ... il-ambani/
...
The industrialist made the claims during the hearing of a lawsuit brought by three Chinese companies on an alleged breach of personal guarantee on a debt refinancing loan.

The three Chinese banks who filed the lawsuit include–Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, China Development Bank and Exim Bank of China –which claim they are owed a whopping $680 billion in dues after an alleged breach of personal guarantee on a debt refinancing loan of around $925 million.
....
On May 22, the UK court asked him to pay $716.9 million or Rs 5,821 crore and $ 750,000 or 7 crores in legal costs to the Chinese banks by June 12, 2020. On June 15, the Chinese banks led by Industrial and Commerce Bank of China sought disclosure of Ambani’s assets after he failed to pay the dues which are yet to be paid, says the report.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 26 Sep 2020 18:41

Philip, excellent posts. If you look at Chinese comments and responses on various forums, it's all this pompous, arrogant, swaggering, condescending Chinese economy is 800 times India's economy, Chinese military strength is 500 times India's, Chinese exports are 1000 times India..etc. The fact that India is standing up to them bewilders, irritates and angers the Chinese enormously. India simply does not want to be an outpost, transit point, retail hub for Chinese products. India is meant for better things than that!

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby pankajs » 26 Sep 2020 20:17

https://www.wsj.com/articles/beijing-fr ... 1601044211
Beijing Frets Over Losing Control of TikTok as It Debates App’s Fate
Officials at China’s Commerce Ministry have pored over U.S. media reports about the deal, and have been troubled by conflicting accounts of who would have ultimate control of TikTok’s world-wide operations, according to people familiar with the matter.

They have also been concerned about reports that U.S. parties in the agreement would be allowed to review TikTok’s source code—the basis of a computer program that companies generally consider proprietary—these people said.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 26 Sep 2020 20:22

blood thirsty xitler and hans were waiting for so long to utilize tiktok to manipulate elections, cause revolutions, riots, etc. Aping of Americans.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby yensoy » 26 Sep 2020 20:30

Varoon Shekhar wrote:India simply does not want to be an outpost, transit point, retail hub for Chinese products. India is meant for better things than that!

Or not. Maybe we just want to plod along and have no interest in making ourselves in the view of the Chinese. As a large and ancient civilization I believe it is our right to do so as long as we are not a burden to others or to mother earth. China can be damned in what it thinks of us.

I used to wonder if the Chinese irritation (aggression rather) towards its minorities - especially folks from Xinjiang and Tibet - was because these minorities were perfectly happy being left alone and had no interest in joining the Han Chinese rat race economy. They were fine with marginal/traditional jobs that would bring them food; and fine with living in their traditional huts. Baring a few, they didn't see the need to hyper compete, purchase expensive houses and toys or indulge in expensive pursuits like traveling abroad or eating shark fin soup. As a result, they were unsuitable as exploitable human resources for the country.

It turns out, my thinking was not far from the truth. The latest story about labour camps in Tibet https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-54260732 (sorry to quote the beeb) says precisely this:
According to Chinese government plans that have been cited, the training schemes are to develop "work discipline, Chinese language and work ethics"

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 26 Sep 2020 20:44

India positively should not be like China in expansionism, regimentation, brainwashing, authoritarianism. And definitely not a dumping ground for Chinese products!

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby pankajs » 26 Sep 2020 20:48

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 329138.cms
Food shortages in China might push Xi Jinping to take drastic actions against Taiwan and elsewhere

NEW DELHI: China is believed to be on the brink of a major food shortage, which might trigger a strategic contest over food security and push Chinese President Xi Jinping already under intense pressure, toward drastic measures, potentially spelling trouble for Taiwan and other parts of the world.

China has encountered a perfect storm of disasters this year. On top of disruption due to the COVID-19 pandemic, torrential rains have caused catastrophic flooding in the Yangtze River basin, China’s largest agricultural region. Floodwaters are estimated to have already destroyed the crops on 6 million hectares of farmland, according to an editorial in The Taipei Times.

The situation has been further compounded by plagues of locusts and fall armyworm infestations in other regions, where fields have been stripped bare, and three huge typhoons last month making landfall in northeastern China, the editorial alleged.
“Food shortages look to be more than just a short-term blip. As China has become more affluent, diets — and waistlines — have expanded, putting a strain on supply and demand. The Chinese Academy of Social Sciences estimates that China’s domestic supply of rice, wheat and corn will fall short of demand by 25 million tonnes by the end of 2025. This raises the question, how can China feed its 1.4 billion people in the long term?,” the editorial quipped.

Food security might become a new strategic battlefront. In the past few years, the Chinese government has invested heavily in Africa’s agricultural sector as part of a wider strategy that incentivizes Chinese food conglomerates to produce crops for the domestic market on rented land overseas.
Another reason why China is eyeing Bakistan and its farms.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 26 Sep 2020 21:15

PM Modi makes strong pitch for India’s inclusion as permenent member of UNSC
https://www.deshgujarat.com/2020/09/26/ ... r-of-unsc/
New Delhi: Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Saturday made a strong pitch for India’s inclusion as a permanent member of United Nations Security Council (UNSC) as he asked how long will his country be “kept out of the decision-making structures” of the global body.

The Prime Minister said every Indian aspires for India’s expanded role in the United Nations as they see the country’s contribution while addressing the virtual 75th session of the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA). His address in Hindi was a pre-recorded video statement which was broadcast at the UNGA hall in New York as it is being conducted mostly virtually amid the coronavirus pandemic.

“Today, the people of India are concerned whether this reform process will ever reach its logical conclusion. For how long will India be kept out of the decision-making structures of the United Nations?” PM Modi asked at UNGA.

It is a fact that the faith and respect that the UN enjoys among the 1.3 billion people in India is unparalleled, he pointed out.
.....

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby yensoy » 26 Sep 2020 21:16

^^^^ Once again Bapu saw this coming
“The world has enough for everyone's need, but not enough for everyone's greed.”


China produces the most of just about everything in the world, yet they are going to have food shortages... wonder why.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 26 Sep 2020 21:25

Food shortage for china can also mean food shortage for India along with other issues like refugees from pakistan heading into India to chinese going for contract farms in Africa.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby sudarshan » 26 Sep 2020 22:12

RaviB wrote:We're pretty inscrutable for the Chinese too. All their social media posts and many columnists calls India irrational, unpredictable and crazy. They do not understand what we're up to. According to their logic, we should clearly see that we are inferior, give up and bow ourselves to their will. That we don't do so is incomprehensible. Also what happened at Galwan, bravery of Indian soldiers was quite a surprise and again incomprehensible.


Cross-posting from mil thread, because I don't think this point is being emphasized enough. To the Chinese, India is a "weird" country. They do *not* get India at all.

Supposedly a passive, peaceful civilization. Land of the Buddha. Land of ahimsa and non-violence and other woolly-headed impractical ideals. Land of Gandhi and the cretin Nehru. Keeps coming up with laughable ideals like "Panchsheel" and "Hindi-Chini bhai-bhai." Perfect bunch of nincompoops screaming out to be exploited and colonized.

Can India be taken for granted on that score? The events of 1971 were a shocker to the Chinese. So was 1998. I remember one particular news article - don't remember the source though. The scenario was - the first set of explosions, which rattled the world, because - a. they never expected India to do such a thing, and worse b. they never saw it coming. They had their satellites monitoring the entire region. What did those pesky Indus do? They calculated the orbits of those satellites, identified windows when there was no coverage of the Pokharan area, and made sure to do all the tunnel-digging and set-up work for the test in those windows. The INDIANS did all this, of all people? But the ones who were most shocked, were the Chinese. Because that put paid to all the plans they had at that time, of bringing up a resolution in the UN (with the support of the munna) to ban further testing.

This, as I say, was the scenario. On top of this, two days later, India conducted two more tests (the sub-critical ones, IIRC). So the news article I'm talking about, quoted a Chinese official, who, when he learned about the second set of tests, had a candid moment, reacting in total shock - "TWO MORE? AGAIN TODAY?" That was the first inkling I had, of just how inscrutable India was to the Chinese.

They must be firmly convinced by now that all those high ideals are just an act, that India is biding her time to react viciously, that this is a dangerous country, never quite as weak as it looks, never to be taken at face value. The docile front is just that - a front. In the background, those Indus are plotting things. Doklam was a shocker. Galwan, even more so.

Now it is China which lacks the political will to take on India. All those shiny toys, that they don't dare to use. We used to keep beating up India's leaders as being cowardly, lacking b*lls, that much-used word "intestinal fortitude." Look what China's leaders are doing now. Almost at the point of inventing excuses to justify their inaction.

Keep smiling at the Chinese, it keeps them wondering what India is up to next. They have a mega fear psychosis of India, they are just much more successful at hiding it, than Indians are.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 26 Sep 2020 22:35

Joe Biden’s China Dilemma: "Save the Planet" or Protect Taiwan?
https://www.realclearenergy.org/article ... 78415.html
....
In less than 20 years, China’s carbon dioxide emissions increased threefold—but the idea that the biggest threat China poses to America’s national security is from greenhouse gases died this year. China’s abrogation of Hong Kong’s one-country-two-systems settlement, guaranteed by international treaty to 2047, its brutal suppression of dissent there, and its armed clashes with India have transformed perceptions of China from friendly rival to, in the words of Council on Foreign Relations president Richard Haass, “an increasingly assertive China with growing military capabilities.” America should unambiguously guarantee Taiwan’s security, Haass argues, as what happens in the Taiwan Straits could well decide Asia’s future and enable China to project power across the western Pacific.

But China knows how to play the West. In his UN address this week, Xi gave Biden a helping hand in the presidential election and climate hawks the upper hand over China hawks in a Biden administration. Dressed in artful prose about green revolutions and protecting Mother Earth, Xi said China would now aim to peak it carbon dioxide emissions before 2030 and achieve “carbon neutrality” before 2060.

China’s intentions should be judged by what it does, not its rhetoric—especially in an election year. It is not going to follow California’s example and wreck its power grid and its economy. China is building 259 gigawatts of new coal-fired power stations—almost as much as the 266 GW capacity of the U.S. coal fleet. “We should see each other as members of the same family,” Xi told the UN, but not Muslim Uighurs who Xi is subjecting to a “demographic genocide.” China is actively involved in the fight against COVID-19, Xi claims. “We should enhance solidarity and get through this together,” so China bans a World Health Organization team from visiting Wuhan and investigating the source of the virus.

Is China a trustworthy partner? The winner of the election has two choices—take China at its word and pursue the illusion of a cooperative China leading the fight against climate change, or stand firm against Chinese expansionism. He cannot do both.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Mort Walker » 26 Sep 2020 22:41


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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 26 Sep 2020 22:56

GIVING THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA PERMANENT MFN: IMPLICATIONS FOR U.S. POLICY
APRIL 11, 2000
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHR ... g66499.htm
....
We believe the U.S. and China's other major trading partners must increase pressure on Beijing for significant improvements in human rights. It makes little sense to bring China into the WTO and expect it to abide by global trading rules when Beijing flaunts international rules of human rights with impunity. China must be moved to go beyond
opening its markets to opening its jails, easing restrictions on the press and the Internet, and protecting the rights of workers.
human rights developments in china
There has been a clear deterioration of human rights conditions in China. A tightening of controls on basic freedoms began in late 1998, escalated throughout 1999, and has continued into the new year. The range of the crackdown suggests that a nationally coordinated campaign
is underway to shut down all peaceful opposition in the name of maintaining ``social stability.''
....

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 27 Sep 2020 01:20

Indian and Japanese navies kick-start three-day mega exercise
https://www.wionews.com/india-news/indi ... ise-330546
The navies of India and Japan on Saturday carried out a range of complex drills in the North Arabian Sea on the first day of their three-day military exercise aimed at further bolstering operational convergence, officials said.

It is the first military exercise between the two strategic partners after they signed a landmark agreement on September 9 that allows their militaries to access each other's bases for logistics support.
....

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Suraj » 27 Sep 2020 08:39

Very good post, sudarshan. Arguably this applies to the Anglo-Saxon west too. They don’t understand why India cannot be a loyal subservient entity to them either.

But focusing on China in this thread, it’s been clear from repeated pronouncements from Gobar Times that they see us thru the prism of 1962, far more than we see them thru that prism anymore. If anything, this conflict has rightly elevated India to its true position - a civilizational adversary of China, and not that of a small sub regional rentier state like TSP.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby sanjaykumar » 27 Sep 2020 09:39

Unfortunately for China, India has looked them in the eye and further spit in their eye. For China the damage has been done. They need a crushing military victory over India to regain the status quo ante for global hierarchy. It is not going to happen.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SriKumar » 27 Sep 2020 09:57

I agree that India 'stood up' to China, but if both sides go back to LAC after this, I'm not sure things will change substantially. The smaller countries will still not take on CHina because they know China can deploy overwhelming forces vs. their tiny forces. WIll they be willing to play that game? not without military support from India (which is a questionable proposition).

The situation for India will not change substantially either in the sense that China can and likely will again deploy forces anywhere along the 3400 km long border, and IA will have to (i) keep a close eye/launch more satellites/have more humint not get surprised like this time, and (ii) match the deployment (this means maintaining or increasing current strength of Infantry, MSC, you name it). In fact, I think India will need to raise additional divisions after this. Trade will go down though...which reminds me, is it not time for a thrid round of bans on apps and software? I agree that this confrontation is a big departure from previous style of engagement by India but if China goes back to LAC, they can come back again to nibble some more (their modus operandi for last 3-4 decades) and India will be in the 'where will they nibble next?' guessing game.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby yensoy » 27 Sep 2020 11:07

darshan wrote:Food shortage for china can also mean food shortage for India along with other issues like refugees from pakistan heading into India to chinese going for contract farms in Africa.

Food shortage in China == no corn to feed pigs. Due to affluent lifestyles and heavy meat eating which is tacitly encouraged by the government, they have put themselves in this situation. There is more than enough food to support a balanced vegetarian + meat + fish diet for Chinese but they insist on starting the day with meatballs.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby rpartha » 27 Sep 2020 11:52

Philip wrote:Examine the PRC's speed with which it has modernised its military.Where did the tech come from? The US and West! Stolen miltech enabled it to modernise at warp speed. It still can't obtain "toppest drawer" Ru miltech because the Russians are more careful and their tech is less accessible to theft. But the west opening up to the PRC with a swarm of PRC spies all over western countries enabled it to make such rapid advances.

Economically,the globe is depfndent upon the PRC's industrial manufacturing might.India too cannot use the PRC crutch and expect to compete with it.The crutch must be discarded. And let's be honest.The punch on the nose in Ladakh ,which surprised them as they thought they could simply stroll into India, has not seen the PLA go home.On the contrary,they've massively ramped up logistics and reinforcements and expect us to withdraw first!

We have to be more ruthless in our counterattack on the fco. and dpl. front. Entities like auto brand MG,no longer a niche Brit. brand is now Chin owned- and must be boycotted,is advertising today its latest SUV the Gloster.A campaign against MG must be carried out as well as other popular PRC brands.But it is for the GOI to vigorously take the lead.It can tighten the screws even further.


Nice post... we cannot blindly ban items - if we take action against MG then they may take action against Jaguar or Range rover.. so it should not be q single ban across all the areas.. instead we need to tie up with SoKo, Japan and Taiwan and assist them in taking on China. Currently we dont have the tech to take China on our own and we need these countries.. and in turn even these countries need us more than ever. Because if they dont cooperate China will eat their business in the next decade... So mutual symbiosis relation... also the discussions here suggest that we need to take decisions in a hurry.. I dont agree to that... we have now designated enemy no 1 which we havent done so far for various reasons... we need to fight this over a period of few decades... and we need consistency in our policy across all the parties...

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 27 Sep 2020 12:17

sudarshan wrote: . . . Can India be taken for granted on that score? The events of 1971 were a shocker to the Chinese. So was 1998. . . Keep smiling at the Chinese, it keeps them wondering what India is up to next. They have a mega fear psychosis of India, they are just much more successful at hiding it, than Indians are.

Good post, sudarshan.

That's why I do not like terminologies like 'India stood up to China', 'Parity with PLA' etc. They connote an 'inferiority' which we do not at all suffer from and ascribe something opposite to the Chinese, an awesomeness, that they aren't. The foolish decisions of 1962 which led to that result keep haunting some of us in our subconscious mind and that must be wiped clean because the slate became new a long time back and we have creditable scores on the slate since then, not the Chinese. Both the counter-attack of Galwan and the actions of August 29/30 (though the latter is only within our side of the LAC) are just as phenomenal as the others (Rezang La, Nathu La, Sumdorong Chu & Doka La). Some are in a mindset that IA needs to keep on proving itself against the Chinese.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby hanumadu » 27 Sep 2020 12:52

Suraj wrote:Very good post, sudarshan. Arguably this applies to the Anglo-Saxon west too. They don’t understand why India cannot be a loyal subservient entity to them either.


Did they have the same view of china? Some how they didn't seem to have any issues with china catching up with them and eventually surpassing them until recently.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby pankajs » 27 Sep 2020 13:30

I read somewhere a while back that at one point the west considered Chinese as whites.

May be power transfer from whites to whites is not as terrible as power transfer to browns or blacks.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 27 Sep 2020 13:49

China's actions have given Abe's Arc of Democracy concept a push - Pallab Bhattacharya, Daily Star, Bangladesh
On Sept 21, India and China held their sixth and latest round of talks to tamp down tensions along their unresolved border in Ladakh.

The marathon meeting, which began in the morning and continued late into the night, assumed importance as it was the first such exercise since the foreign ministers of the two countries met in Moscow 11 days prior to that, agreeing on the need for de-escalation of troops and arms build-up at the border and disengagement of troops who are almost in an eyeball-to-eyeball stand-off.

But the tensions and stand-off show no signs of a resolution.

The mistrust between the two sides has only deepened in the last four to five months.

While the overwhelming focus has been on the bilateral dimensions, one equally important - and a somewhat less discussed - dimension is the manner in which China's increasingly military assertiveness has had the effect of expediting a new world order and realignment of forces at the international level.

An idea in the labyrinth of international relations takes time to germinate and there is a time for it to grow.

Nothing could be truer for the "Arc of Democracy" proposed across Asia by Japan's former prime minister Shinzo Abe in 2007. It is an idea whose time has come, to quote a favourite expression of India's former prime minister Manmohan Singh.

Thirteen years ago, Mr Abe, with an eye on China, had proposed the Arc as a loose alliance of democracies in Asia.

His idea at that time was nebulous. But as he stepped down as prime minister, he may have derived some satisfaction from the recent developments that saw his proposal taking concrete shape.

Nothing illustrates this better than two events that happened on Sept 10: India, France and Australia had their first dialogue in a trilateral dialogue; and India and Japan signed an agreement allowing defence forces of the two countries to access each other's logistics and facilities.

What is common between the two is the firm focus on the vision of an Indo-Pacific where China is aggressively ramping up its military and economic presence.

This is a far cry from the initial days when Mr Abe's Arc of Democracy idea was met with a tepid response across much of Asia as country after country, including Australia and India, did not want to be seen as too keen about it as they did not want to rub China the wrong way.

Each Asian country had its own strong economic engagements with China. Not that the situation has changed much now.

Over the years, democracies in Asia, or for that matter across the world, have tended to underplay China's worldview.

That, however, began changing once Beijing came out with its White Paper on the Asia-Pacific in 2017 suggesting that major powers be sensitive towards one another and medium and smaller powers stay neutral.

That was the time when China, with a bulging money bag, went about hard-selling its Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) across the world and its territorial claims in several parts of Asia.

China's worldview is one to dominate the international order by putting in place its own rules governing the international order.

The values of a democratic society - individual rights and openness - are not in the lexicon of China's worldview.

Beijing may or may not have factored in that there may be countries which can come in the way of its desire to hold sway, refuse to accept its territorial ambitions, join the BRI, debt-trap diplomacy, and look at a maritime security coalition and compete for influence in South-east Asia and Africa.


This is what appears to be happening as India, Australia and France held the trilateral dialogue virtually. What is noteworthy is that this was the first time a European power was brought into the Indo-Pacific scheme of things as opposed to China's Asia-Pacific picture.

The two main focus areas of the meeting were: collaborative efforts to ensure a free, open and inclusive Indo-Pacific and enhance the resilience of reliable global supply chains.

This should also be seen in the context of Japan and Australia that recently took an initiative for ensuring resilient supply chains.

It remains to be seen if France also joins it.

Besides, India and the US are also expected to ink an agreement for maritime information sharing that gels well with the overall Indo-Pacific strategy.

There already exists the quadrilateral grouping involving the US, India, Japan and Australia viewed as another forum for ensuring freedom of navigation in the Indo-Pacific.

India already has a trilateral forum with Indonesia and Australia.

The common thread running through this surfeit of tri-nation or quadrilateral groupings is the convergence of strategic interests in the Indo-Pacific.

China views the idea of Indo-Pacific with suspicion, without apparently realising that its own actions to tailor the world order have pushed and expedited such irreversible alignments of countries.

On the face of it, these alignments are separate but one should not underestimate the ability of these countries in the groupings with focus on the Indo-Pacific to coalesce when the necessity arises, because their worldview has certain shared values like individual liberty and a spirit of accommodation for all.

It is important to listen to Indian External Affairs Minister S. Jaishankar, who was speaking at a function in New Delhi on Sept 18.

He underlined that the military logistics pact between India and Japan is a very practical manifestation of the ability and intent of the two countries to work together, and expressed the confidence that "it would be both a big plus for the evolution of the Indo-Pacific vision of both countries as well as adding to the stability and security of Asia".

His remark could be an indicator of the shape of the emerging Indo-Pacific narrative in the midst of growing Chinese assertiveness.

The real challenge for the votaries of the Indo-Pacific vision is to sustain the initiative without being distracted by short-term interests or change of guard in the countries. After all, the foreign policies of democratic countries are underpinned by certain common values and convergence of interests.

China may be going wrong in expecting medium and small powers to be neutral in international power play.

Neutrality may not be an option for these powers if they are pushed by China to a corner.

Mr Abe's Arc of Democracy may have been in the incubator for a long time, but China's actions may have given that idea a decisive push to get off the drawing board.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby m_saini » 27 Sep 2020 13:56

i don't think chinese were ever considered fellow "whites". Here's an SCMP article detailing how the chinese were transferred from "whites" to "yellow" as soon as it became evident that they won't bend the knee to actual "white europeans".

The Chinese were white – until white men called them yellow

Europeans referred to East Asians as white until the end of the 18th century.

But as the Chinese and Japanese resisted cultural assimilation they darkened – both in Western eyes and their own


Mostly black/brown "Asiatic Folk"

Image

"‘Nations of Europe! Join in the defence of your faith and your homes!’" - 1895
Image

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Suraj » 27 Sep 2020 22:04

hanumadu wrote:
Suraj wrote:Very good post, sudarshan. Arguably this applies to the Anglo-Saxon west too. They don’t understand why India cannot be a loyal subservient entity to them either.

Did they have the same view of china? Some how they didn't seem to have any issues with china catching up with them and eventually surpassing them until recently.

Of course they did. However, the west also understands the scope of material development in China. The reality is that a vast swath of urban China has gone from looking like a poor country, to looking on par with any developed country. It may be a front / potemkin village / real development whatever. Those are just personal views of it. When a nation demonstrates it's fixed the basic problems of living, it gets seen on a different plane. There was a story in 2006-07 in India Today I believe, about Chinese fearing how a rapidly growing India would be a major competitor - until they visited and saw just how much further behind we were. At that time literally their whole country was under construction.

Today, China realizes that India is run by a leader who understands the currency of power, both in terms of domestic priorities and military engagement. They may still feel they can prevail in a bloody border war, but what victory is that ? That they won at great cost - potentially increasing the likelihood of Tibet going up in flames and destroying the PRC ? That no one sees them as the replacement of the US, but simply one of the two major Asian continental powers along with India ? That's a major loss for them - who believed they were a G2 from which they were well on the way to pushing away the US and being the greatest world power.

They just don't understand why India doesn't know its place. They keep reminding us about 1962 because that's how they see us, but that's not how we see them. We see them for their internal conflicts, power struggles, and a very predictable approach to taking a sledgehammer to fix every protruding nail they ever see. The Chinese are beyond excellent at marshalling resources to build things. They suck at managing crises by giving the other party a stake in the system of government. They've always been poor at this - for 2500 years now.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby nandakumar » 27 Sep 2020 22:46

Suraj
A great post as usual. The rest of the world is looking upto the US for guidance on decoupling from China. But is the US really ready? Let me share an anecdote. A month or two perhaps there was a news story about Stanford University having come up with a low cost alternative ventilator. In the context of Covid this was big news. A friend of mine who has potential investors behind him in India reached out to the professor who was spearheading the innovation. He wanted to licence manufacture in India. He was astonished to learn that the proprietary technology would licenced for only one year at a time and renewable st the discretion of Stanford University thereafter. My friend told him that no royalty agreement can be negotiated with that kind of timeframe given the capital expenditure. Of even greater source of astonishment for my friend is the insistence that the ventilator can be used only on Covid infected patients. This didn't make any sense. I mean a ventilator is agnostic between infections, right. Then of course he also made clear that this arrangement would have to be in conformity with Indian tax laws. Somewhere along the way the professor said he doesn't have the bandwidth to process the contract. My friend is nonplussed. Either the Stanford innovation is not what it is touted to be or the US government is not championing it. How then does a country commit investments on the prospects of sales in the US market?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Philip » 27 Sep 2020 23:32

"NYC under assault like never before in a report
by James Olson,former head of CIA counter intelligence,about PRC espionage.It is estimated that there are over 100 PRC agents in NYC alone. One can imagine the total number in the USA.
In many countries including India, traitorous nationals have also taken the PRC's 30 pieces of silver and betrayed their country by passing on vital military and other secrets. The NYC assault illustrates the " full court press" that the PRC is waging against those it considers enemies or rivals. We have like other nations been naive about the PRC's diabolic intentions and must understand that we ARE at war already,with the enemy within the gates through cyberwarfare,humint,and also on our soil. Like Goebells' famous speech in WW2,we must be both physically and mentally prepared for " total war" against the PRC, Anything less could be fatal to the challenge from the enemy.

PS: Our intel agencies have also reported about the intense PRC surveillance of HH the Dalai Lama,using so-called " monks",actually PRC spies. Unless we treat every PRC national as an agent bent upon destabilising the nation- and the Wuhan virus is nothing but bio-warfare against the globe, we will suffer enormous consequences,grievous to our nation and its people.
Last edited by Philip on 27 Sep 2020 23:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby RaviB » 27 Sep 2020 23:32

pankajs wrote:I read somewhere a while back that at one point the west considered Chinese as whites.

May be power transfer from whites to whites is not as terrible as power transfer to browns or blacks.


I don't think anyone considers the Chinese white or sees power transfer in terms of race, otherwise the Cold War would never have happened. Going by that logic, US should have been ok with letting USSR have power.

On a side note, in apartheid South Africa, mainland Chinese were classified as "yellow". But since the Taiwanese had put in a lot of investments in SA, they were classified as "white".

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 28 Sep 2020 00:20

Lately I have noticed that the US security clearance issuing establishments are keeping distance from anything chinese. However, it doesn't like that they have understood the actual problem as tackling chinese also requires going after chinese affiliates too and not allow pakis and turkish to pass through the gates. chinese will essentially move on to activating their paki, turkish, etc. assets

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby sanjaykumar » 28 Sep 2020 00:51

:) On a side note, in apartheid South Africa, mainland Chinese were classified as "yellow". But since the Taiwanese had put in a lot of investments in SA, they were classified as "white".



Trust the white man to be ever cognisant of his material comforts.


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