Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Kati » 13 Oct 2020 11:54

^^^^

About the KRA Canal:
Very soon SoKo or Japanese companies would step in to do the job.
Guaranteed that Chinis will not get the contract. No need to panic, Thailand doesn't do any work that may raise Unkil's eyebrows.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby sudarshan » 13 Oct 2020 20:13

X-post from mil thread:

tsarkar wrote:
https://salute.co.in/cover-story-tibet- ... -nathu-la/

COVER STORY-TIBET ABANDONED AND THE LESSONS OF NATHU LA
written by Maj Chandrakant Singh, VrC August 14, 2017

The stand off between Indian and Chinese troops on the Dolam plateau in Bhutan has all the potential of leading to full scale war. My Battalion 4 Guards (1RAJPUT) has had three tenures in Sikkim including two at Jelep La and I have been fortunate to have visited the state several times thereafter. I also have personally known Gen. Sagat Singh and the Sikkimese Princesses Pema Tseuden and Pema Choki whose contributions to India and Tibet need to be better known.

The Chumbi Valley is like a dagger pointed at the neck. Only a thin strip of land between the Himalayan state of Bhutan and Tibet connect Assam to the rest of India. In 1903 it was through the Jalep La pass and Chumbi Valley that the Younghusband mission went to Lhasa massacring many innocent and unarmed Tibetans on the way. Not many people know that both the 1890 Anglo Chinese Convention and the 1893 Tibet Sikkim Convention have a Hong Kong link. The negotiations were carried out between two Englishmen Henry Durand from the Indian side and James Hart representing the Chinese Imperial Customs and Frontier Service. The British were keen to obtain concessions for their interests in China particularly Hong Kong and Kowloon. To obtain these they accepted some spurious demands of the Chinese. Hong Kong as an entre-port for opium was a more attractive market than barren Tibet. The 1890 treaty was thus signed by a Britisher who was employed by the Chinese, and not by any Chinese official! Also not well known is the fact that the Chumbi Valley towns of Gyantse and Yatung used to be the summer capitals of Sikkim till 1948.In 1903, it was through the Jelep La pass and Chumbi Valley that the Young husband mission went to Lhasa massacring many innocent and unarmed Tibetans on the way.

History

Chinese claims over Tibet are weak at best, notwithstanding their high decibel claims that Tibet was always a part of China, which is not factual. Chinese claims on Tibet are premised on the fact that during the reign of the Mongol Emperor Chengez Khan and his heirs particularly Kublai Khan when Marco polo visited China, Tibetan representatives were seen in the Court at Peking. But at that time, China itself was a part of the Mongolian Empire and Tibet and Mongolia have always had close relations which continue even till today. When Chengez and Kublai ruled China, the relationship between Tibet and Mongolia was never between master and vassal, but as equals. So why did Nehru cede Tibet to China?

Nehru’s knowledge of history was sketchy and moreover stemmed from the viewpoint of the English, who wrote that history. But more than his lack of knowledge of history was his shocking ignorance of geography. In a letter he wrote to the Chief Ministers during his journey from Sikkim to Bhutan via the Chumbi Valley, he expressed surprise at seeing trees and forests when all he expected was a barren waste land, which perhaps also explains why he thought Ladakh too was a wasteland where not a blade of grass grew! His admiration of the socialist cause and the Stalinist model of governance made him more amenable to the Chinese viewpoint at the expense of the Tibetan people, which has led to the near extinction of an ancient civilisation and people, and also created an insoluble problem for India. Morally and legally, the ‘Hanification’ of the Tibetan population is genocide by another name. Linguistically, racially, culturally, and genetically the Tibetan are a different race from the Han Chinese and so are the Mongols, Manchurians, and many other ethnic minority groups, millions of whom have been killed in the process of Hanification.

Few people know that prior to the adoption of Buddhism as a state religion and its emphasis on ahimsa as a guiding principle for state policy and individual conduct, the Tibetans were a powerful and warlike people who dominated an immense swath of land starting from China to Western Iran. This lesson perhaps must never be lost on nations who seek to maintain their independence. Also not well known is the fact that when the Chinese Army invaded Tibet in 1950, they found themselves short of food even after having ransacked the country side of all food supplies. It was the Nehru government which supplied huge quantities of rice from India via Jelep La Pass in Sikkim. Then, in 1952, Nehru agreed to downgrade India’s representation in Tibet to consul general, implicitly conceding that Tibet’s foreign relations were controlled by China. Two years later he agreed to withdraw the Indian Military posts and trade representative from the Chumbi Valley that had been established by Young husband. During the hasty and ill planned withdrawal from Yatung and Gyantse several lives were lost including that of the Company Commander of the 2nd Battalion Jat Regiment Major Nagal, whose son, Lt Gen BS Nagal is the present Director of the Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS). With great difficulty and persuasion was a team from 1Maratha under Major Brar allowed to proceed to Yatung and recover the bodies (Brar later rose to the rank of Lt Gen. and is more prominently known for his role in clearing the Golden Temple of terrorists). Nehru also had the telegraphic link to Lhasa and other facilities handed over to China. India thus, not only gave up all claims in Tibet but also surrendered Tibet’s rights to have independent relations with the outside world. India’s trade representatives at Kashgar, Gartok, Yatung and Gyantse were withdrawn cutting off centuries old links to Tibet. In the Panchsheel Agreement signed a year later at the Bandung Conference, whatever residual interests and rights that India had in Tibet evaporated.

Another fact which has been kept hidden from the gaze of the Indian public is that in 1951, just after the relics of the Buddha’s disciples which had been returned by UK had been exhibited in Gangtok and Kalimpong, India not only facilitated the journey to Lhasa but played host to the newly appointed Chinese Military Governor of Tibet, General Chang Chin Wu even after having received reports of atrocities being committed by the first batch of Chinese invaders led by General Liu Po Cheng. At this point in time, access to Tibet from China was very difficult, so much so that the Chinese Military Governor of Tibet had to proceed to Lhasa via Calcutta and Sikkim like Younghusband before him. If one Chinaman found it difficult to go to Lhasa directly how much more difficult it would have been to move an entire Army and then support it. India’s blindness after Independence led to the fiasco in 1962.
PRINCESS PEMA TSEUDEN OF SIKKIM WAS MARRIED TO A HIGH GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL OF TIBET WHO BELONGED TO A NOBLE FAMILY RELATED TO AN EARLIER DALAI LAMA. IT WAS SHE WHO WARNED THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA OF THE INVASION OF TIBET BY CHINA IN 1950. SHE WAS KNOWN FOR HER BEAUTY, CHARM, SOPHISTICATION AND DEDICATION TO THE TIBETAN CAUSE. MANY PEOPLE WHO MET HER WERE CAPTIVATED BY HER AND EVEN NEHRU WAS REPUTED TO HAVE BEEN ENTRANCED. AFTER THE TAKEOVER OF TIBET BY CHINA SHE MOVED TO CALCUTTA AND STARTED A BUSINESS MANUFACTURING TIBETAN JEWELLERY. NEHRU HAD ARRANGED A LICENCE FOR HER TO IMPORT SEMI-PRECIOUS STONES. FOR MANY YEARS SHE WAS THE BEST SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON THE HAPPENINGS INSIDE TIBET AND OUR INTELLIGENCE BUREAU AND THE CIA MADE USE OF HER SERVICES AND THOSE OF HER SISTER PEMA CHOKI MORE POPULARLY KNOWN AS PRINCESS KULA.

The Face-off at Nathu La At this point, mention need to be made of what happened in 1967, just a few years after the debacle in 1962. Here, the role of General Sagat Singh needs special mention. Sagat is rightfully remembered for his role in the 1971 War, but to me, his audacity and moral courage in disregard of his superior’s orders in taking on the Chinese in Sikkim in 1965 and 1967 is unequalled. It must not be forgotten that these actions took place just three years after India had been humiliated by the Chinese in 1962. Our Government and the defence establishment was extremely apprehensive and nervous about our Army’s ability to handle the Chinese. Sagat however had no such doubts and turned the tables on the Chinese. For this action alone he deserves a special place in the annals of Indian military history, for the action at Nathu La restored our self-confidence and pride which proved to be battle winning factors in 1971.

In 1965, during the Indo Pakistan War, the Chinese, in order to help Pakistan, issued an ultimatum to India to vacate Nathu La, Jelep La and the adjacent passes on the Sikkim Tibet boundary. General Manekshaw was the Eastern Army Commander and General Aurora was GOC XXXIII CORPS under whom was 17 Division with Sagat as GOC at Gantok, responsible for Nathu La and Cho La. Jelep La near the tri-junction of India, Bhutan and Tibet was under GOC 27 Mountain Division. Eastern Command and HQ XXXIII Corps had issued orders to 17 Div and 27 Div that in case of hostilities they were to vacate the posts on the watershed and fall back to the depth positions at Chhangu and Lumthu respectively, leaving behind only observation posts at the passes.

Sagat however felt that the natural boundary was the watershed at the passes and adjoining heights and refused to pull back his troops. Instead, he went about having the border demarcated by laying a wire fence at the pass to clearly demarcate the boundary. Sagat understood that in the mountains, anyone who controlled the heights had an unassailable advantage so he went about strengthening his positions and siting his observation posts from where they could look deep into the Chumbi Valley and bring down effective artillery fire right up to Yatung. There was a lot of pushing and jostling the like of which we have seen recently on TV but Sagat refused to budge and in fact at Cho La which is a few kilometres North of Nathu La there was a fire fight and the Chinese were pushed back a couple of kilometres.

Whilst Sagat’s Division was holding its ground and refusing to vacate the dominating features, the GOC of 27 Division at Jelep La and the Tri-junction area withdrew his troops to the rear positions vacating the dominating heights which were promptly occupied by the Chinese. This domination of the heights is what is making the Chinese assume an aggressive posture. The defence of this area is critical for India, should we lose it then it is all the way downhill to the plains of North Bengal and the narrow strip of land barely thirty kilometres wide that connects Assam to the rest of the country. Having gained an upper hand at Jelep La, the Chinese felt confident enough to try their luck again at Nathu La in 1967 but here they did not take into account the presence of Sagat. Having gained an upper hand in 1965 he was not the man to give it up, come what may. He had appreciated that dominating Nathu La was critical to the defence of Gangtok which is a few thousand feet lower and not too far from the pass. Loss of Nathu La would thus endanger Gangtok. So, keeping the national interest in mind, he was prepared to take on the Chinese with all the resources at his command, even at the risk of incurring the disapproval of his superior commanders and putting his career on the line.

On 13 August 1967 our observation posts reported that some Chinese troops had crossed over and dug some trenches on our side of the border. When they were challenged they filled up the trenches and withdrew. But they installed several loud speakers and beamed propaganda on to our side. Sagat countered this by installing more powerful loudspeakers in a tit for tat game of one-upmanship. He however realised that the Chinese were starting something new and after getting a clearance from Corps Headquarters decided to demarcate the border and strengthen the barbed wire fencing with concertina coils. The Chinese tried to prevent this and several eye ball to eye ball encounters which ended in scuffles took place. The Jat troops of 3 Grenadiers like all Jats are big in build and have a powerful physique so they always got the better of the Chinese. The Chinese, realising that they could not best the Grenadiers started to resort to stone pelting which was answered in a like manner by our troops. Several minor injuries were sustained by troops on both sides. On 11 December things came to a head when the Chinese opened fire on our troops laying the wire. Col Rai Singh, CO 2 Grenadiers was hit and so were several other troops. Seeing their CO hit, the Grenadiers went mad with rage and charged the enemy positions. Several of our men were mowed by Chinese machine guns but some managed to reach their bunkers and took on the Chinese with their bayonets and hand to hand combat. But a company of 18 Rajputs and the Engineer personnel laying the wire were caught in the open and suffered heavy casualties. Sagat, as was his habit, was close to the front. Seeing the situation had escalated and we had suffered considerable casualties, he ordered artillery fire from his medium 5.5 inch guns to be brought down on the Chinese positions. Ever since he had taken over 17 Division in 1965 he had positioned his artillery observation posts on heights overlooking the Chinese positions not only in the front but deep inside Chumbi Valley upto and beyond Yatung. These artillery OPs did a sterling job, and the Chinese positions at Nathu La were devastated and positions in the rear were also targeted and destroyed. Sagat as a Divisional Commander did not have the authority to open fire with his medium guns, so the moment HQ Eastern Command and XXXIII came to know that he had deployed his medium guns they called for an explanation. Anticipating this, Sagat made himself unavailable on radio and telephone and continued to conduct the battle according to his own plan till all Chinese positions at the pass had been neutralised. Thereafter, a ceasefire was declared and bodies of the dead exchanged. Many acts of unprecedented valour were performed and Sagat ensured that they received due recognition. There were also a few cases of desertion of duty which Sagat enquired into and the guilty were brought before courts martial and those found guilty were punished. We had suffered heavy casualties — 65 dead and about 145 wounded — but the Chinese had lost many times more. Their dead were about three hundred and of the wounded about twice that number. After the ceasefire when normalcy had returned Sagat’s Division was in a commanding and advantageous position at Nathu La, but his superiors were none too pleased at his open defiance of their instructions and after a couple of months Sagat was shifted to the command of a non-operational formation, 101 Communication Zone based at Shillong. But no one could keep Sagat down, for just a few months later, Sagat was leading the campaign against the rebels in Mizo Hills and in two years had successfully restored normalcy.

Whereas Sagat went on to win further laurels in the service of India his counterpart, the obedient commander of 27 Division at Jelep La who vacated the pass when not even threatened has left behind a permanent headache and security problem for India. The problem has got more complicated as the exact spot where the recent incident has taken place lies within Bhutan and we are guarantors of Bhutan’s defence. It was heartening to see big built Sikhs pushing back the Chinese in the present face off at Dolam.


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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby sudarshan » 13 Oct 2020 20:24

Nehru was the original surrender monkey, it seems. The list of his misdeeds in Tibet is shocking - from surrendering the telegraph links to Lhasa, to supplying the Chinese army with rice for a year. Let's try to make them more widely known to the world in time for his b'day, coming up in Nov. It's the least we can do after all his strenuous efforts to skroo India :).

At this point in time, access to Tibet from China was very difficult, so much so that the Chinese Military Governor of Tibet had to proceed to Lhasa via Calcutta and Sikkim like Younghusband before him. If one Chinaman found it difficult to go to Lhasa directly how much more difficult it would have been to move an entire Army and then support it. India’s blindness after Independence led to the fiasco in 1962.


Unbelievable :eek:. Plain incompetence, or malice? Doesn't matter, as the saying goes, "any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 13 Oct 2020 21:45

I believe that when it comes to nation's security, there's no such thing as incompetence. All sell out to commies and british and nothing else. An incompetent can't thread the needle like nehru did. What's the probability of perfectly aligned blunders after blunders?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby sudarshan » 14 Oct 2020 06:53

End result is the same anyways, and should certainly be treated the same - firing squad. What to do onlee - many moons ago, yours truly was so misguided that he took it upon himself to compose a poem for Nehru on "children's day" (in English of course) and even proudly recited it in front of the entire school assembly :oops: . Trying to do prayaschittam/ atonement now, but gilty pheeling not going away wonlee :cry: .

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Suraj » 14 Oct 2020 08:19

Suraj wrote:
srin wrote:Regarding Taiwan, IIRC Taiwan has the same PRC policy for Tibet. So, asking us to abandon the "One China" policy related to Taiwan but without being explicit about their stance on Tibet is a bit disingenous.

I think we should publicly revoke the "One china" policy regarding Tibet. As far as Taiwan goes, it should be reciprocated by their revocation of claims over Tibet and shifting a significant percentage of investment of Taiwanese companies (like Foxconn) to India.

No this is incorrect. Please see the following series of conversations earlier in this thread:
Does Taiwan have the same territorial claims China makes ?
This is a very common sleight of hand, and almost always performed by Chinese and their western puppets. If we are going to seriously discuss China topics, it's important to understand the basis of these claims in detail instead of making easily digestible but misleading comments like this. Not blaming you - this kind of simple interjection is FUD the Chinese want to see.

Interestingly, now Bloomberg also saying this:
China’s Insistence That Taiwan Isn’t a Country Starts Backfiring
For many in Taiwan today, the Republic of China seems like a historical relic with diminishing relevance for the democracy of 24 million people. Taiwan has long abandoned Chiang’s goal of reconquering what he knew as the mainland, and polls show that more and more Taiwanese don’t want any unification with China.

But celebrating the Republic of China is strategically useful for Tsai’s government. It allows her to sidestep the question of formal independence, avoiding a potentially devastating conflict with China while providing cover to create a distinct political and cultural identity for Taiwan -- ultimately undermining President Xi Jinping’s goal of subsuming it under Communist Party rule.

Pretty much exactly what I said. Taiwan no longer sees itself as ROC, except as a way to create a separate identity for itself. It has long since abandoned the idea of ROC as a KMT run mainland that held the same border claims.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby kit » 14 Oct 2020 15:37


suryag
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby suryag » 14 Oct 2020 20:51

sudarshan wrote:End result is the same anyways, and should certainly be treated the same - firing squad. What to do onlee - many moons ago, yours truly was so misguided that he took it upon himself to compose a poem for Nehru on "children's day" (in English of course) and even proudly recited it in front of the entire school assembly :oops: . Trying to do prayaschittam/ atonement now, but gilty pheeling not going away wonlee :cry: .


Dont tell me you composed the song "chacha nehru purush mahaan" that we used to sing in school

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby m_saini » 14 Oct 2020 20:56

sudarshan wrote:......many moons ago, yours truly was so misguided that he took it upon himself to compose a poem for Nehru on "children's day" (in English of course) and even proudly recited it in front of the entire school assembly :oops: . .....


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: dhanya ho saar

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Jarita » 14 Oct 2020 23:53

sudarshan wrote:End result is the same anyways, and should certainly be treated the same - firing squad. What to do onlee - many moons ago, yours truly was so misguided that he took it upon himself to compose a poem for Nehru on "children's day" (in English of course) and even proudly recited it in front of the entire school assembly :oops: . Trying to do prayaschittam/ atonement now, but gilty pheeling not going away wonlee :cry: .



Every geopolitical power has bought people in our ecosystem over through conferences (lavish holidays), university admissions for kids, plum post retirement postings etc. China is more interesting. Many people go there for real medical treatments. You need organs, no questions asked. You need embryonic stem cell treatments, no questions asked. Many western businessmen go there for the same purpose plus of course “massage relaxation”. Massage relaxation with underaged kids is so common that no one even asks.
Now coming to India. It’s the same case for Indian politicians. The patriarch of a regional dynasty and his heirs are beneficiaries of illicit treatments.
Most of these people have benefitted so much and their families will continue to do so.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby sudarshan » 15 Oct 2020 00:06

suryag wrote:Dont tell me you composed the song "chacha nehru purush mahaan" that we used to sing in school


No no, the poem I composed was recited by me alone (thank goodness). If it had become a legacy, don't know how I'd live with myself (hard enough as it is).

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby pankajs » 15 Oct 2020 00:51

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Aerosp ... to-Vietnam
In Indo-Pacific push, Japan to export arms to Vietnam

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chetak » 15 Oct 2020 02:47

g.sarkar wrote:Chetakji,
The current standoff in South China Sea,Taiwan and Ladakh, to name a few hot spots created by China, cannot continue forever. Either China will have to back down and assume a more benign posture or it will escalate and start a war with the rest of the world. The Kra Canal is not a project that can be implemented any time soon. It is at least a few years away, and so its effect in the present confrontation with China is zero. China’s predatory behavior with smaller nations is now well known. It has embarked on an era of Neo-colonialism in Africa and Asia. We all know how China now controls the Sri Lanka port of Hambantota and the Pakistani port of Gadwar. Under the present circumstances Thailand may not fall for Chinese tricks. Of course we should not underestimate the power of Chinese bribery.
Gautam





g.sarkar saar,

whether the cra canal is delayed, takes time or is done eventually by non cheeni companies, the effect is one and the same.

the kra stays out of cheeni hands, out of their sphere of influence and is not available to them in times of need.

that leaves them totally at the merciful hands of the people who control the malacca straits and those people are certainly not the ones who live on the shores of the malacca straits.

this cra canal is a checkmate ploy that the hans have no control over, short of embarking on a futile war which they don't have the stomach for or even the will to fight and a war that they know that they simply cannot win, given the sheer breadth of inimical forces arrayed against them.

so, its back to the moth eaten and raggedy ass CPEC which has to transit through a very fiesty baluchistan after landfall in gwadar.

or they may try and circumvent it by going through an equally fiesty afghanistan.

but at the end of the day, its the same schitt but with different terrorists.

and in the meanwhile, the xinjiang uygurs are not going to be sitting quietly and sucking their thumbs. Post the ameriki elections, a new great game may well start here with the amerilis, russkis, eyerabs, europeans because of increasing interest from rome raj and not forgetting the scum of the earth, the britschitts

This is why the QUAD is so terrifying to the hans and keeping India out of it is a major bone of contention as they have identified us as the weakest link, unless of course, India aligns with the US in which case, xi is truly ducked and far from home.

post 1962 neverwho, who was taught an unforgettable lesson by mao; a lesson that the congis never forgot with the sole exception of sashtri, this lesson forced the congis who collectively came under a fear psychosis akin to the stockholm syndrome that effectively shackled and hobbled the foreign policy of India for decades to come.

All congi govts by default had thus learned to prostrate themselves before the hans and allowed them at will, to walk all over the congi political leadership and the quick learning babooze adapted very fast as they came up with many face saving diplomatic postulations, one after the other, to cover up the fact from the Indian public that we had become spineless cheeni doormats.

this position was what mao had manipulated neverwho to obtain, as well as, what mao demanded from India after neverwho's passing and xi fully expected the same unquestioning continuation of this time tested and well worn policy of India kowtowing to the cheeni dictats to continue when the PLA confidently walked into doklam, and out of the blue, got kicked in the testimonials .

xi and the PLA had not read Modi correctly and they also failed to factor in the resentment against the cheeni that had built up over the years within the IA that was due to such shameless cheeni appeasing earlier policies that had been implemented by previous govts without ever consulting the IA and once again, xi and the PLA failed to see the changed circumstances that resulted in the decidedly aggressive stance that India took at doklam.

MMS's shameless and selfish bid for the nobel was was shot down by the IA when he failed to hand over siachen to the pakis as promised to the amerikis. That was when people in the political establishment had the first faint glimmerings that something had changed drastically in the national security environment. The siachen issue has now outgrown a single political party and has been upgraded to a national issue which requires national concensus. The IA will continue to remain watchful as always.

Cut to ladakh where xi, perhaps after being convinced by an over eager PLA has squarely stepped into the quagmire that both he and his PLA presently find themselves in. Galwan and the reaction of the Indian public to Modi's justified stance where he has overhelmingly huge public support to counter the PLA any way he sees fit. This is the very same public that buys his shoddy goods exported into India and xi does not want a pissed off Indian public refusing to buy his goods.

xi has needlessly poked the ameriki bear in the SCS and recklessly disturbed the hornets nest in ladakh. He needs India to be alone, isolated and unsupported so that he can deal with it like he has dealt with his OBOR clients using bribery, threats and subversion but in his eagerness to make sure that india is isolated, he has foolishly precipitated the coalescing of huge support for India and the rapidly evolving consolidation of the QUAD, both of which hits at the very root of his strategy.

xi's pain points will remain and can only increase given the global opposition to the cheeni hegemony that no single country was willing to take on earlier but now since others have joined, such opposition will only grow and the intensity of these points will increase excruciatingly in the geopolitical sense and cheeni strategic challenges only will multiply as other nations start to support the QUAD and add global complexities to what was currently a local problem limited to the SCS and increasingly to ladakh which is starting to rear its head and most unexpectedly, the baring its Indian fangs.

xi and his PLA need a face saving exit with something tangible to show to all the thousands of troops they have brought into ladakh and will talk when they go back home.

the only option that hans will have is to then start to trouble India in right earnest by using the very same paki jehadi tactics in the NE, arunachal pradesh and via the nepal border as well as to get their paki pals to stir up trouble in cashmere.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby srin » 15 Oct 2020 13:28

Ultimately, irrespective of who builds the Kra canal, the one who controls the Kra canal is the one who controls the Thai Govt. Suez got nationalized. So, builder can get shafted.
And Thailand is borderline stable and can become Nepal (ie go under Chinese thumb) overnight.
Though the gap between Andamans and Nicobars (ten degree channel) is huge, by putting a transhipment port in either place, we can neutralize the Kra.
The Kra is more of a threat to Singapore than to India.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chetak » 15 Oct 2020 14:40

srin wrote:Ultimately, irrespective of who builds the Kra canal, the one who controls the Kra canal is the one who controls the Thai Govt. Suez got nationalized. So, builder can get shafted.
And Thailand is borderline stable and can become Nepal (ie go under Chinese thumb) overnight.

Though the gap between Andamans and Nicobars (ten degree channel) is huge, by putting a transhipment port in either place, we can neutralize the Kra.
The Kra is more of a threat to Singapore than to India.


the kra is not merely and only a commercial threat.

It has grave strategic implications for the entire region.

It's also one of china's biggest "get out of jail" cards.

If it becomes operational and han dominated, then any amount of transhipment ports in the region will make zero difference.

the malacca straits is a natural choke point that can work against the national interests of china and this choke point has larger dimensions, the least of those dimensions being commercial and the hans are trying to neutralize the historically existing threat to themselves by hoping to create an alternate route via the kra.

In normal times,the malacca straits absolutely dominates the commercial aspects but in times of friction and strife, the same flow of commerce which includes oil, grain, and raw materials flowing to china also acquires the additional and strategically vital dimension of feeding the han military machine and the blockage of such traffic has the impact of directly undermining their military efforts and their ability to sustain the fight over long periods of time, as well as, sabotaging their national morale.

More importantly, it also impedes the essential movement of the PLA navy by denying them passage through the straits and forcing them to take the long way around with telling effects on their logistics and replenishment capacities thus directly diminishing their ability to sustain operations and safeguarding their vital SLOCs.

BTW, thailand simply will not be allowed to go the srilankan way.

The devious engineering of coups is a sword that cuts both ways and the hans do not have a monopoly on it. The amerikis, britshits and the frenchies are past masters and the real experts in this arcane black art since their colonial days. Each of them have, over the years, engineered tens of regime changes and propped up more dictatorial regimes on a global scale than the hans can ever dream of.

If china "occupies" thailand or any other so called client state, it will immediately become a declaration of war and the result will be like what happened in the maldives where the amerikis wrested the island nation away from the hans quite easily and entered into an agreement with them which the hans will dare not touch.

The US has signed a framework for defence cooperation with the Maldives to deepen engagement in support of maintaining peace and security in the strategic Indian Ocean


and this is exactly what will happen in thailand too, and it is starting to look like the kra option of the hans is being strangulated and will eventually be checkmated.

losing out on the kra option will exponentially decrease the chinese strategic options and increase their strategic paranoia and adversely impact their monomania of world domination.

and just maybe, it will also result in the loss of xi's head and the purging of some really crazy PLA generals.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Adrija » 15 Oct 2020 16:41

Chetak ji, not sure if Kra canal would be the "get out of jail" card as much as the Hans hope.... both the entry and exit points are as vulnerable to Khan chokehold as the Malacca Straits ones are. Someone already has commented on this on the board in detail IIRC so will refrain from repeating it fully. But the entry is through Andaman Sea (India controlled) and exit is South China Sea (Khan's lake)...

The only real options for the Hans is overland (CPEC/ Central Asia OBOR) and hence whole the whole splash there...

JM2paise and IMVVHO and all that of course

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chetak » 15 Oct 2020 17:06

Adrija wrote:Chetak ji, not sure if Kra canal would be the "get out of jail" card as much as the Hans hope.... both the entry and exit points are as vulnerable to Khan chokehold as the Malacca Straits ones are. Someone already has commented on this on the board in detail IIRC so will refrain from repeating it fully. But the entry is through Andaman Sea (India controlled) and exit is South China Sea (Khan's lake)...

The only real options for the Hans is overland (CPEC/ Central Asia OBOR) and hence whole the whole splash there...

JM2paise and IMVVHO and all that of course


BTW, the kra canal is an idea that has literally been kicked around for some centuries and very many decades ago, the hans decided to weaponize it to suit their national interests in keeping with their world view and their dubiously inherited middle kingdom opinion of themselves and their country as being the center of the universe and thus they rightfully became the true rulers of the world and all the rest, their serfs and servants, born only to be servile and forever be subservient to the han kingdom and that is where they are truly going with all this nonsense about the BRI/CPEC/OBOR schitt.

the "get out of jail" card is based on the han perception that they would totally control the environs around the kra canal as well as the entry and exit points of the kra canal just like they are attempting to do with gwadar and are now poking their nose into the chabahar port as well to consolidate their options and to keep India out of afghanistan as well.

thus, with their undisputable domination of the kra canal, the hans thought that they would liberate themselves from the impediments of the geopolitical and navigational constraints visited on them by the limitations of malacca straits that acted like a hindrance upon their freedom to grow and expand their global reach in the their rightful pursuit of the hegemony and territorial conquest that would place them at the very apex of the global food chain, and crown them forever more as the undisputed masters of all that they surveyed, so to speak.

The hans see a direct threat from India to their interests in afghanistan because of the enormous goodwill India has generated in afghanistan over the years in direct contrast to the devious and self serving machinations of all the other players in the region.

For the moment, the afghan public seem to be highly appreciative of India's unstinting help but when push comes to shove, who can really tell, because, after all, the afghans are a part and parcel of the ummah and so its quite likely that they will ditch us kaffirs in a flash.

it hardly makes any strategic sense for the hans to build and control the kra canal without totally securing all possible military, political and security aspects of it first and especially locking down the all important control over the ingress/egress points as well.

This long term plan of the hans using the kra canal as an option is now in jeopardy.

having evaluated the vulnerability of the kra canal, their plan B seems to be gwadar and chabahar and the CPEC with additional and different routes. There is grave risk here as well because of the extreme weather, the hostile and inhospitable terrain, paki greed, baluchi terrorism and the extremely low temperatures that jack up the costs of pumping the crude oil because almost the entire length of the pipeline into china from gwadar has to be heated, hence the large numbers of coal fired power stations that will provide the power to heat the pipelines on an almost continuous basis through out the year. The roads of the CPEC are also very prone to frequent small and periodically huge landslides that can block all traffic, sometimes for weeks at a time.

the pakis have severe limitations in their ability to control terrorism in baluchistan before the pakis get well and truly shafted by the international agencies/govts for things like genocide and extra judicial killings and the inevitable harsh sanctions will kick in crippling their already shitty economy even further.

Freeloading does not work with the hans but a very healthy transfer of paki equity seems to work well in exchange for meagre and miserly cheeni help.

The amerikis will not totally exit afghanistan. A collection of multi interest contingent of ameriki forces will stay back. The goras seem to have many other fish to fry as well in the region.

Here's another thought about nationalization.

If hambanthota port had been taken over by India under similar circumstances to what the hans did, the lankans would have after a few token years, gone ahead and nationalized it. The Hindus are a soft touch. Their civilization by itself is witness to this fact and our guys would have returned home quietly.

But with the hans, the lankans just wouldn't dare because the hans, as a civilization and race have always been vengeful and they would start by publicly cutting off the sinhala president's little testimonials and progressing downwards, cabinet minister by cabinet minister and then moved on through the ranks of the hierarchy of the lankan army for similar operations.

this is just my 2 paise worth.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 15 Oct 2020 22:04

Taiwan needs to figure out whether it's serious or not and stop this flirting business. If serious then announce that present china comprises of many illegally occupied civilizations and that Tibet isn't china.

I always go for chana masala and naan, tweets Taiwan President Tsai Ing-wen
https://www.wionews.com/india-news/i-al ... wen-335385

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby g.sarkar » 16 Oct 2020 06:51

chetak wrote:g.sarkar saar,
whether the cra canal is delayed, takes time or is done eventually by non cheeni companies, the effect is one and the same.
the kra stays out of cheeni hands, out of their sphere of influence and is not available to them in times of need.
.....

Sirji,
What I am trying to say in my poor ability of expression, is that if it takes 5-10 years to build the Cra, China is either the godfather of the whole world. Or it has been broken up into pieces in trying to become a super power. Cra is not going to affect China right now, when it needs all the help it can get.
Gautam

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby g.sarkar » 16 Oct 2020 06:57

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... -tensions/
Would the U.S. protect Taiwan from China? Taiwan’s new envoy hopes for ‘clarity.’
By Adam Taylor, Oct. 14, 2020

The U.S.-Taiwan security relationship has been purposely ambiguous for four decades. But amid increasing Chinese threats of invasion, America’s commitment to Taiwan needs to be clearer, the island’s de facto ambassador to the United States said this week.
“We need some degree of clarity,” Hsiao Bi-khim, an American-educated lawmaker who became representative of the Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office in Washington this summer, told Today’s WorldView.
The comments come amid soaring tensions between Taiwan and China. This weekend, China aired footage of a military exercise simulating an invasion of Taiwan, as well as a purported confession from a Taiwanese businessman Beijing is holding on spying charges. (Beijing considers Taiwan a breakaway province and has declared its plans for “reunification,” forceful or otherwise.)
Taiwan does not believe China is preparing for a “full-scale military attack,” Hsiao said. But there is “a risk of accident or miscalculation,” and there needs to be a clear “position that military force is not tolerated and that there are multiple stakeholders in the region that want to jointly assure stability and peace.”
Though they have not had diplomatic ties since 1979, informal relations between Taiwan and the United States are strong and growing. This year, shared concerns about China’s threat and the spread of the novel coronavirus brought unprecedented high-level meetings between the two.
But when it comes to the thorny question of whether the United States would intervene if China attacked Taiwan, the Trump administration has followed its predecessors in keeping to a policy of “strategic ambiguity,” refusing to directly answer the question. The initial logic behind the tactic was simple. Ambiguity not only kept China guessing, but it also stopped Taiwan from making potentially provocative moves.
However, with tensions rising again, calls for change appear to be growing inside and outside the White House. In an article for Foreign Affairs last month, Richard Haass and David Sacks argued it was time for a concrete U.S.-Taiwan security pact.
“The United States should adopt a position of strategic clarity, making explicit that it would respond to any Chinese use of force against Taiwan,” Haass and Sacks wrote.
.....
Gautam

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 16 Oct 2020 07:41

China angered as U.S. names human rights envoy for Tibet
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-chin ... SKBN2700W3
...
U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo announced on Wednesday that Robert Destro, Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, would assume the additional post, which has been vacant since the start of President Donald Trump’s term in 2017.
...


https://www.law.edu/about-us/faculty-an ... index.html
Robert A. Destro is Professor of Law and founding Director of the Interdisciplinary Program in Law & Religion at The Catholic University of America's Columbus School of Law in Washington, D.C. He has been a member of the faculty since 1982 and served as Interim Dean from 1999-2001. From 1983 to 1989 Professor Destro served as a Commissioner on the United States Commission on Civil Rights, and led the Commission's discussions in the areas of discrimination on the basis of disability, national origin and religion.
Expertise
International Human Rights
Freedom of Religion
Speech
and Association
Bioethics
Last edited by darshan on 16 Oct 2020 07:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chetak » 16 Oct 2020 07:54

g.sarkar wrote:
chetak wrote:g.sarkar saar,
whether the cra canal is delayed, takes time or is done eventually by non cheeni companies, the effect is one and the same.
the kra stays out of cheeni hands, out of their sphere of influence and is not available to them in times of need.
.....

Sirji,
What I am trying to say in my poor ability of expression, is that if it takes 5-10 years to build the Cra, China is either the godfather of the whole world. Or it has been broken up into pieces in trying to become a super power. Cra is not going to affect China right now, when it needs all the help it can get.
Gautam


Gautam Saar,

you are right.

the kra will easily take upwards of a decade or more to build and perhaps even more time to fully operationalize it.

the kra is affecting china right now because it closes off options for them just when the hans are desperately running short of friends, even friends that they had bribed or purchased, like the pakis.

If the kra is closed off to the hans it also means that thailand itself may very soon become off limits to them just like the maldives has.
and then thailand may well be the first of the dominos to fall.

the pakis are fair weather friends with both their hands perpetually in your pockets. china knows this. right now, the hans are mired down in ladakh because of ego issues and their all important need to save face. They can neither advance nor retreat.

china will not break up but one hopes that it will certainly diminsh in stature and the its ability to project power will wane somewhat in the medium term.

the usual han swagger may be replaced by a new found demureness as their search for more markets and customers will be undertaken on slightly more equitable terms.

the buggers will lay low, bide their time and keep their powder dry while quietly preparing for another shot at becoming top dog.

by which time, we should have become stronger both in military as well as commercial terms as long as the congi BIF do not upset the applecart.

pappu seems to be working to some crazy agenda that the BIF may have crafted and convinced him to go for it.

more bad news for the hans because it is looking like trump may be getting his second term after all.

"hunter" biden has just become the prey for trump, following some new revelations about dirty deeds in the biden camp.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chetak » 16 Oct 2020 07:56

darshan wrote:
China angered as U.S. names human rights envoy for Tibet
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-chin ... SKBN2700W3
...
U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo announced on Wednesday that Robert Destro, Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, would assume the additional post, which has been vacant since the start of President Donald Trump’s term in 2017.
...


and India has recently celebrated the taiwanese birthday too.

truly, the han cup of woes runneth over. :mrgreen:

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby V_Raman » 16 Oct 2020 08:30

all this also feels like encirclement of India by the USA - they are killing 2 birds in one agreement with maldives.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby KL Dubey » 16 Oct 2020 09:00

V_Raman wrote:all this also feels like encirclement of India by the USA - they are killing 2 birds in one agreement with maldives.


^^Sounds like something I would read in a CCP mouthpiece.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby nandakumar » 16 Oct 2020 10:02

Someone in one of the mail group that I am part of said during one of recent public appearances Xi Jinping was found coughing uncontrollably and the State Television was desperately trying to edit it out. It was not sourced to any media outlet or person. Does anyone have any information on this?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Philip » 16 Oct 2020 10:58

Intel says that he bit off more of India than he could chew!

On a more serious note, " Crook" Abdullah should be arrested for treason for calling upon the PRC to help liberate J&K or words to that effect. Like Vidkun Quisling, and "Lord Haw Haw", William Joyce, both names became synonymous with traitors,we can now add the name " Abdullah" to the list of rogues why betrayed their country. GOI, please arrest this traitor immediaptely.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby nandakumar » 16 Oct 2020 11:01

Philip wrote:Intel says that he bit off more of India than he could chew!

!!!

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby srin » 16 Oct 2020 11:11

Philip wrote:Intel says that he bit off more of India than he could chew!

On a more serious note, " Crook" Abdullah should be arrested for treason for calling upon the PRC to help liberate J&K or words to that effect. Like Vidkun Quisling, and "Lord Haw Haw", William Joyce, both names became synonymous with traitors,we can now add the name " Abdullah" to the list of rogues why betrayed their country. GOI, please arrest this traitor immediaptely.


On the contrary, I think we should keep this guy and his words in the news, so everybody knows what he thinks. I don't follow tv news at all, but his words should get into all the regional media

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chetak » 16 Oct 2020 15:26

V_Raman wrote:all this also feels like encirclement of India by the USA - they are killing 2 birds in one agreement with maldives.


for what it is worth, the US actually consulted India before it went ahead and signed the agreement with the maldives.

The US did so because it acknowledges India to be the dominant power in this region.

now why would the US do what it just did, which is basically kick the hans right in their b@!!$

the dismantling of the cheeni influence peddling machinery is being prioritized so as to teach the hans a lesson for their hegemonically aggressive SCS power play.

more of such cheeni power projection centers will increasingly come under soft power attack by the US and some will get converted into military agreements to eliminate the han presence in those areas.

It takes some really big brown hairy ones to duck with any officially US backed govt, even in small countries like the maldives. The hans may like pissing contests but they just won't precipitate a shooting war with the US.

incidently, this country has become one of the sources for khattarpanthi jehadi fighters in many troubled zones.

and a lot of maldivians still come here under the pretext of "studies" and "medical" visas but a great many of them are illegally settled and also illegally working in India.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chetak » 16 Oct 2020 16:03

nandakumar wrote:Someone in one of the mail group that I am part of said during one of recent public appearances Xi Jinping was found coughing uncontrollably and the State Television was desperately trying to edit it out. It was not sourced to any media outlet or person. Does anyone have any information on this?


one would assume that all TV transmissions in the cheeni, noko and most islamic media are transmitted with an inbuilt time delay and this would be more than enough to edit out any glitches in the live feed.

the time delay is obvious when you watch DD news feeds that are simultaneously picked up and relayed by different TV channels, say during the PM's live coverage where the same feed shows slightly different parts of the same speech that can be discerned when you flip through multiple channels covering the same live speech.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby g.sarkar » 16 Oct 2020 16:15

V_Raman wrote:all this also feels like encirclement of India by the USA - they are killing 2 birds in one agreement with maldives.

Ramanji,
To be a part of the Khan group is not without its problems. No, I am not talking of Japan and Germany. They lost the WWII. I am not talking of the USSR, which was royally screwed by the Khan, by postponing the allied landing on the Western France, by more than a year. That made sure the Soviet Union was weaker. But the USSR was always considered to be an enemy. No, I am talking of the United Kingdom, with whom Khan has always claimed a special relationship. Between September 1, 1939, and the attack on Pearl Harbor attack on December 7 1941, when Amreekhan got directly involved, the British Empire was helped by Khan, but at a steep price that ultimately destroyed the Empire. India will also have to pay a price and we have to be aware of this.
Gautam

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby nandakumar » 16 Oct 2020 16:48

chetak
Take a look at the news report a few hours ago in adelaidenow.com which I suppose is an online news media outlet from Australia.
https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/wor ... 4fc284dcc7

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby pankajs » 16 Oct 2020 18:54

chetak wrote:
V_Raman wrote:all this also feels like encirclement of India by the USA - they are killing 2 birds in one agreement with maldives.


for what it is worth, the US actually consulted India before it went ahead and signed the agreement with the maldives.

We need to look beyond our fears of the past plus a bit of googling would have helped.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chetak » 16 Oct 2020 19:08

nandakumar wrote:chetak
Take a look at the news report a few hours ago in adelaidenow.com which I suppose is an online news media outlet from Australia.
https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/wor ... 4fc284dcc7


good catch, sirji 8)

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chetak » 16 Oct 2020 23:56

South Block’s mistakes will now be corrected by Army





South Block’s mistakes will now be corrected by Army

Indian diplomats have committed several blunders while negotiating with the Chinese in the past. It is thus heartening to have the Army commandeer border talks this time around.

Claude Arpi
October 15, 2020

The most vital concern today is not to lose the advantages gained on the ground at a negotiating table, as it has often happened in the past. So far, nothing has been lost during the seven rounds of border talks conducted in Ladakh, by Lt Gen Harinder Singh, the commander of the Leh-based 14 Corps.

After five months since the beginning of the standoff with China in eastern Ladakh, it is time to draw up a temporary balance sheet of the conflict. Militarily, India’s position changed for the better on the night of 29-30 August, when Tibetan commandos occupied the ridges south of Pangong Lake. It was an important strategic victory, but also a psychological one, showing that the Tibetans are with India in the battle against China’s hegemonic advances.

The most vital concern today is not to lose the advantages gained on the ground at a negotiating table, as it has often happened in the past. So far, nothing has been lost during the seven rounds of border talks conducted in Ladakh, by Lt Gen Harinder Singh, the commander of the Leh-based 14 Corps. However, to have transferred the ‘ground’ negotiation from the Ministry of External Affairs is a victory in itself. In the past, the MEA has often been the weak ‘diplomatic’ link, as the mandarins are often satisfied by simply ‘cutting the apple in two’. The ‘original sin’ of the present situation on the Indian border is due to this particular weakness. While it had been known for years that China was building a road across the Aksai Chin, South Block had kept quiet, probably to not offend Mao and his cohorts.

On 18 October 1958, the then Foreign Secretary had politely written to the Chinese Ambassador that Delhi’s attention had been drawn to the fact that China had built a road “across the eastern part of the Ladakh region of the Jammu Kashmir state, which is part of India. This road seems to form part of the Chinese road known as YehchangGartok or Sinkiang Tibet highway, the completion of which was announced in September 1957.”

The Indian official had complained: “In view of [this], it is matter of surprise and regrets that the Chinese government should have constructed a road through indisputably Indian territory without first obtaining the permission of the Government of India and without even informing the Government of India.” With the danger of such a preposterous reaction looming large over Ladakh, one can only rejoice that the government has involved mainly the Army in the talks. As mentioned in a previous column, it was nevertheless positive that Naveen Srivastava, the MEA Joint Secretary dealing with China, was present in Moldo/Chushul.

Lt Gen P.G. Kamath, a defence analyst (and a ‘thinking general’) recently wrote, “I have always been rubbing the point that the MEA is a relic of the Nehruvian era and is unable to respond to the extremely fluid and dynamic geostrategic imperatives. To make matters worse, we have put a career diplomat in charge of the MEA.” However, the presence of S. Jaishankar, with his ‘chromosomic’ antecedents (his father being one of the sharpest Indian strategists) and his long experience in the Ministry, has definitively brought improvements, though the minister has had to deal with the antiquated work culture and old mindset of an ‘elite’ corps, who has a tendency to think that they know everything.

The problem is compounded by a series of innumerable blunders committed by South Block over the decades — to give a few examples, the Nehru government remaining quiet when the Indian Consulate in Kashgar was closed by China in December 1949, (“we can do nothing about it, the times have changed”); the weak protests made when Tibet was invaded 70 years ago; and, in 1954, the Panchsheel Agreement not only giving away the Indian rights in Tibet to China, (which included military escorts), but worse, the border issue not even being brought to the table, with the consequences that we see today in Ladakh. The first three ‘principles’ promised “mutual respect for each other’s territorial integrity and sovereignty”, “mutual non-aggression”, and mutual non-interference in each other’s internal affairs.” By accepting that Tibet belonged to China, India could no longer claim her genuine interests in Tibet. Today, what makes things more complicated is that the Indian diplomacy accepted the concept of a Line of Actual Control (LAC) which has never existed on a map or on the ground.

The recent blitzkrieg from Beijing about a November 1959 LAC is pure Information Warfare (IW) using some gullible Indian newspapers. Where is the Line that Zhou Enlai mentioned on 7 November 1959 to Nehru? Is there a map? On what is it based — on a clearly-defined watershed, on customary rights of the local grazers, on land or house taxations? No, it is pure Chinese bluff. But there is worse: the MEA has inked several agreements with China, forgetting to define the main object of the accords — the LAC. It is hard to believe that Delhi signed on the dotted line without any definition or map of the LAC, leaving sufficient space to Beijing to change the posts. On 7 September 1993, India and China entered into an agreement “in accordance with the Five Principles” which speak of the “Maintenance of Peace and Tranquility along the LAC,” but nowhere is the LAC itself defined, though it says, “… pending an ultimate solution to the boundary question… the two sides shall strictly respect and observe the LAC between the two sides.” It is truly amazing, but there is no map of the LAC in the Western Sector even today.

Then, on 29 November 1996, an agreement “on Confidences Building Measures in the Military Field along the LAC” was negotiated, “believing that it serves the fundamental interests of the peoples of India and China to foster a long-term goodneighbourly relationship in accordance with the five principles.” Both parties were “convinced that the maintenance of peace and tranquility along the LAC in the India-China border areas accords with the fundamental interests of the two peoples.” Yet again, the LAC was not defined or delineated. In 2000, both sides agreed that they would initiate a process for the clarification and determination of the LAC in all sectors of the boundary.

A meeting took place in March 2000, where maps of the middle sector were exchanged. On 17 June 2002, both sides met again and maps of the Western Sector were seen by both sides for about 20 minutes, before the Chinese withdrew their maps. Ten years later, in January 2012, there was still no map when both sides established “a Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination” which mentioned a non-existent LAC: “Firmly believing that respecting and abiding by the LAC pending a resolution of the Boundary Question between the two countries.” Then, on 23 October 2013, an official accord acknowledged “the need to continue to maintain peace, stability and tranquility along the LAC in the India-China border areas and to continue implementing confidence building measures in the military field along the Line of Actual Control.” It spoke in particular of “flag meetings or border personnel meetings at designated places along the LAC.” But where is this LAC? This time, the Indian Army will make sure that China does not escape without the proper definition of a line that the Indian jawans can defend. The nation has its fingers crossed.

The writer is a French-born author, journalist, historian, Tibetologist and China expert. The views expressed are personal.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chetak » 17 Oct 2020 10:44

quite a contrast to the wishy washy statements usually made by the MEA on china matters.



Don’t Comment On Our Internal Affairs If You Expect Us To Not Comment On Yours: India Warns China Amid Worsening Tensions In Ladakh



Don’t Comment On Our Internal Affairs If You Expect Us To Not Comment On Yours: India Warns China Amid Worsening Tensions In Ladakh



Swarajya Staff
Oct 16, 2020

The Ministry of External Affairs on Thursday delivered a sharp warning to China after its comments on India’s internal matters, including New Delhi’s decision last year to give Ladakh the status of a Union Territory.

This comment was made in response to China’s statement earlier this week, in which it had said it “does not recognize the Ladakh Union Territory illegally set up by India. China had also said that the development of infrastructure in border areas is “the root cause for the tensions between the two sides”.

Dismissing the first claim, MEA spokesperson Anurag Srivastava has said the Union Territories of Jammu Kashmir and Ladakh “ have been, are, and would remain an integral part of India”. Srivastava added that China has no locus standi to comment on this issue as it is an internal matter of India.


“We hope that countries will not comment on India’s internal matters, as much as they expect the same of others,” he said, warning China.

The MEA also dismissed China’s claim on Arunachal Pradesh, the northeastern Indian state claimed by China as “south Tibet”.

Arunachal “is an integral and inalienable part of India,” Srivastava said.

LakshmanPST
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby LakshmanPST » 17 Oct 2020 12:41

China has given out these statements like a 1000 times already... And Indian response is same, "They're internal matters"...
I feel India should issue a last warning to the Cheenis rather than simply copy-pasting the same response...
And next time China gives out some statement like that, India should immediately raise some Chinese issue like Tibet or Taiwan...
Somehow India is not willing to escalate things even diplomatically...

darshan
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 17 Oct 2020 20:53

A Diwali campaign needs to be started to have pro Tibet memobralia going. May be have Tibet etched on each diya.

g.sarkar
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby g.sarkar » 18 Oct 2020 04:37

Philip wrote:On a more serious note, " Crook" Abdullah should be arrested for treason for calling upon the PRC to help liberate J&K or words to that effect. Like Vidkun Quisling, and "Lord Haw Haw", William Joyce, both names became synonymous with traitors,we can now add the name " Abdullah" to the list of rogues why betrayed their country. GOI, please arrest this traitor immediately.

Quisling was executed. So was William Joyce. Even PG Wodehouse, after he gave a few non-political discourse over radio Berlin, was never welcomed back in the UK and had to settle in the US. Unfortunately, India does not have that tradition. We let our traitors prosper in peace.
Gautam


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