Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5462
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Cyrano »

jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by jamwal »

What if Xi Jinping just isn't that competent?

https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/what- ... -isnt-that?

But other than turning a bureaucratic oligarchy into a personalistic dictatorship, what are Xi’s accomplishments, exactly? In my experience, people tend to assume that Xi is hyper-competent because:

There’s a general impression that the Chinese government is hyper-competent, and Xi has made himself synonymous with the Chinese government, and

Under Xi’s watch, China has arguably become the world’s most powerful country.

But this doesn’t mean Xi actually deserves his reputation as a one-man engine of Chinese greatness. Much of his apparent success was actually inherited from his predecessors. He has taken absolute control of the apparatus built by people such as Deng Xiaoping, Jiang Zemin, and Hu Jintao, but I think it’s hard to argue that he has added much to that apparatus.

In fact, I think there are multiple signs that Xi has actually weakened the capabilities of the Chinese juggernaut. So far, China’s power and general effectiveness are so great that these signs seem to have gone largely unnoticed, but I think they’re there. The three big ones are: Slowing growth, an international backlash against China, and missteps related to the Covid pandemic.

It’s time to consider the possibility that for all his self-aggrandizement, Xi Jinping is just not that competent of a leader.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by ramana »

Nice comments but quite superficial.
For Xi is the emperor now and the others were emperors before him.
He just consolidated the authoritarian leadership from the totalitarian version before.
In that manner, he is a transition figure.
Despot->Totalitarian-> Authoritarian
Mao->Three globalists->XJP
If so, the three charges against him, were globalists pin pricks to him.
Ashokk
BRFite
Posts: 1116
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Ashokk »

Gravitas: Why is China not talking about the mysterious blasts?
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32226
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by chetak »

Finally, the bubble has burst in China

Ch!na's Evergrande has officially defaulted

The domino effect will kill Ch!na ambitions especially BRI and CPEC

The house of cards is collapsing..........

DMSA is preparing bankruptcy proceedings against Evergrande Group.

Along with this many small nations which received billions of dollar$ in loans from Ch!na defaulting.




Evergrande officially defaulted - DMSA is preparing bankruptcy proceedings against Evergrande Group

Evergrande officially defaulted - DMSA is preparing bankruptcy proceedings against Evergrande Group

November 10, 2021

BERLIN, Nov. 10, 2021 /PRNewswire/ -- China Evergrande Group today again defaulted on interest payments to international investors. DMSA itself is invested in these bonds and has not received any interest payments until today’s end of the grace period. Now DMSA is preparing bankruptcy proceedings against Evergrande and calls on all bond investors to join it.

China Evergrande Group, the second largest real estate developer in China, defaulted on interest payments on two bonds back in September, with the 30-day grace period still ending in October. However, shortly before the end of the grace period, the public was misled by rumors about alleged interest payments. The international media also took the rumors for granted. Only the DMSA - Deutsche Marktscreening Agentur (German Market Screening Agency) already recognized the default at that time and proved in a study that the bankruptcy of Evergrande, the world’s most indebted corporation, could ultimately lead to a “Great Reset”, i.e. the final meltdown of the global financial system.

(Note to journalists: See DMSA press releases dated Oct. 25 and Oct. 29, 2021, and the DMSA study “The Great Reset - Evergrande and the Final Meltdown of the Global Financial System”; all available via the DMSA homepage http://www.dmsa-agentur.de.)

“But while the international financial market has so far met the financial turmoil surrounding the teetering giant Evergrande with a remarkable basic confidence - one can also say: with remarkable naivety - the U.S. central bank Fed confirmed our view yesterday,” says DMSA senior analyst Dr. Marco Metzler. “In its latest stability report, it explicitly pointed out the dangers that a collapse of Evergrande could have for the global financial system.”

In order to be able to file for bankruptcy against the company as a creditor, DMSA itself invested in Evergrande bonds, whose grace period expired today (Nov. 10, 2021). In total, Evergrande would have had to pay $148.13 million in interest on three bonds no later than today. “But so far we have not received any interest on our bonds,” explains Metzler. He adds, “With banks in Hong Kong closing today, it’s certain that these bonds have defaulted.”

(Note to editors: Exact details of the bonds that have defaulted so far can be found in the appendix to this press release.)

Particularly problematic for Evergrande: all 23 outstanding bonds have a cross-default clause. “This means that if a single one of these bonds defaults, all 23 outstanding bonds automatically have ‘default’ status” DMSA senior analyst Metzler knows. However, this does not automatically result in a bankruptcy for Evergrande Group. To determine bankruptcy, a insolvency petition must be filed with the court. This can be done either by the company itself or by one or more of the company’s creditors. And this is precisely what is now planned. Metzler: “DMSA is preparing bankruptcy proceedings against Evergrande. We are already holding talks with other investors in this regard. We would be pleased if other investors were to join our action group.”

For the DMSA expert, it is clear: “As soon as a court opens insolvency proceedings, Evergrande will also be officially bankrupt - and that is only a matter of days.”

Bond Name

Regular coupon
payment date

End of the
goodwill period
("grace period")

Total interest
payment

(in US$ million)

EVERRE 8.25% due 2022

2021.09.21

22.10.2021

83.53

EVERRE 9.5% due 2024

2021.09.29

28.10.2021

45.17

Total not paid
in October 2021



128.70

EVERRE 9.5% due 2022

2021.10.11

2021.11.10

68.88

EVERRE 10% due 2023

2021.10.11

2021.11.10

42.50

EVERRE 10.5% due 2024

2021.10.11

2021.11.10

32.75

Total not paid

in November 2021



148.13

Source: DMSA, own research

About DMSA Deutsche Markt Screening Agentur GmbH:

DMSA Deutsche Markt Screening Agentur GmbH, is an independent data service that collects and evaluates market-relevant information on companies, products and services. DMSA sees itself as an advocate for consumers, private customers and intelligent investors. The claim: to always look at companies and providers, products and services through the eyes of the customers. The customers are the focus of DMSA’s work. For them, important and decision-relevant information is bundled and presented as market screenings. The aim is to create more transparency for consumers when selecting products, investments and services.

Press release:
http://www.dmsa-agentur.de/download/202 ... _PM_en.pdf
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25085
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by SSridhar »

DavidD
BRFite
Posts: 1048
Joined: 23 Jun 2010 04:08

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by DavidD »

SSridhar wrote:Another Evergrande in the making? - Economic Times
There'll be more I'm sure. I think the Chinese government will step in to make the contractors whole, and probably make sure those who prepaid for housing are made whole as well. Equity holders might get something back. Offshore bond holders are pretty much SOL.
vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3982
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by vera_k »

I was reading the other day that President Xi has not been seen outside of China for a long time.

How certain are we that Xi is still alive and healthy? Is it possible that he is deceased or otherwise incapacitated and what we are seeing now is a desperate attempt by a junta to retain control?
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5462
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Cyrano »

Oh god, its coming out. How long before the world realises the person in the middle of the magnificent 7 photo opp at the 19th CCP conference is in fact a body double put there by MAD ? :eek: :shock:
uddu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2091
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by uddu »

The Communist party is removing any western influence that may jeopardize their rise to be the sole Superpower. The removing of any money influence that westerners have over China is getting removed. In this correction, they will try to make as much as loss for the investors from outside China.
yensoy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2494
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by yensoy »

Not so simple regarding foreign bondholders. If they burn foreign bondholders, then the likes of Goldman, Blackrock and all the other wall street players who have been pumping up China for their own profits will go 180 degrees against them. That is a huge force, in fact it is the force that got China into WTO and still gives them access to the western markets. I doubt CCP would do anything which will amount to a full default.

But the Chinese being Chinese these guys won't default but will delay payments, not pay interest for the delayed duration, or ask for a ton of paperwork before they make the outsiders whole. They may tilt the playing field to a degree that only the big players will be able to fulfil the requirements to get paid back, and small fry investors will be fried.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Pratyush »

I have always viewed the value of debt in connection with the creditor's ability to recover it.

If the PRC allows for a default and then shuts it's doors to US capital. Xi might just be able to come out on top by doing that.

Given the wrangling regarding budget in the US along with high debt, coupled with the loss of capital in PRC. The ability of the US to raise cheap capital will be totally destroyed. US will be left holding the bag of the debt that it has accrued over the decades. Forcing it to face a difficult choice, either totally default on the debt that it has generated. Or face the situation the Weimar republic faced. But without being defeated in a was and the treaty of Versailles.

It will also effect the PRC. But Xi can sell it as the adverse effects of unbridled capitalism. Thereby, theoretically being able to contain the damage to the party and his own rule.
pushkar.bhat
BRFite
Posts: 455
Joined: 29 Mar 2008 19:27
Location: prêt à monter dans le Arihant
Contact:

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by pushkar.bhat »

The biggest enemy of CCP is the CCP. Xi may seem to be all powerful but the Politburo is a delicately balanced construct with a majority of Xi detractors. You cannot beat or defang the Chinese as a nation. You can however change the way they look at the world and their willingness to rise as a peaceful power by brining in the right set of actors to the stage. China cannot be controlled it can only be contained.
Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2649
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Jarita »

Pratyush wrote:I have always viewed the value of debt in connection with the creditor's ability to recover it.

If the PRC allows for a default and then shuts it's doors to US capital. Xi might just be able to come out on top by doing that.

Given the wrangling regarding budget in the US along with high debt, coupled with the loss of capital in PRC. The ability of the US to raise cheap capital will be totally destroyed. US will be left holding the bag of the debt that it has accrued over the decades. Forcing it to face a difficult choice, either totally default on the debt that it has generated. Or face the situation the Weimar republic faced. But without being defeated in a was and the treaty of Versailles.

It will also effect the PRC. But Xi can sell it as the adverse effects of unbridled capitalism. Thereby, theoretically being able to contain the damage to the party and his own rule.

+1
Malayappan
BRFite
Posts: 462
Joined: 18 Jul 2005 00:11

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Malayappan »

Interesting Read...
PRC strategy of Democracy Meltdown moves into high gear by Nalapat
Those loyal to Xi Jinping Thought believe that before the deep state elements that they claim are all over the White House succeed in inflicting the demonic system of democracy on the PRC, it is an existential imperative that US and India must undergo a steady dilution of their comprehensive national power.
In the end,
The CCP under Xi Jinping, and in particular the CMC now controlled by his chosen appointees, understands this and has sought to tailor policy accordingly. What is needed is for the “Age of Illusion” to end in major democracies. Some of these are already the target of the CMC’s “comprehensive war strategy”, while many of the others will be, should the initial targets succumb to the strategies being used against them. More and more policymakers in the major democracies have begun understanding the existential nature of the internal and external threat that they are facing. This will assist in enabling them to avoid mistakes that may act as a force-multiplier for the other side, and to design and carry out policies that would ensure they prevail in this 21st century version of the Cold War that is taking place between the world’s two superpowers and their respective allies and partners—two superpowers with mutually-incompatible systems of governance and outlook.
Worth reading the full piece!
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5462
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Cyrano »

Thanks for posting this, one of the more convincing explanations of why Xitler & CCP are doing what they are doing that I've come across.
srikandan
BRFite
Posts: 590
Joined: 20 Nov 2020 02:51

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by srikandan »

Moving from Russia thread:
chetak: they are doing exactly what is needed to put down an increasingly desperate and unstable xi while concentrating on getting out of the covid induced global clusterf(uk.

he badly needs a victory somewhere, either internally or externally, to bolster his image and standing
Chetak saar, Agree and recent events support your intuition. Given the way Biden admin is behaving so far, they have not given up on a detente with China at the bilateral level, while giving China a free hand to mess with US's other non-ally competitors like India and enemy states like Russia, like how China uses Pakistan and North Korea as a lapdog.

Currently, China is treated as a closer ally than India as far as USA is concerned, going by continuing efforts by Biden to normalize relations with China. Some recent events that point in this are:
1) continuing coverup of the wuhan virus which seems to have been a joint effort of the US and China
2) Breaking up the QUAD and "repurposing it" to not raise chinese hackles
3) refusal of the Biden adminstration democrats to meet with Indian leaders and the

A detente with the US would give China a free hand to get more aggressive its near neighbours, and that is serves the US well too, since that is what Kissinger envisioned with his G2-sphere-of-prosperity with China.
vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3982
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by vera_k »

Cyrano wrote:Oh god, its coming out. How long before the world realises the person in the middle of the magnificent 7 photo opp at the 19th CCP conference is in fact a body double put there by MAD ? :eek: :shock:
If that is the only measure, then what the world sees as Xi is 99% a body double. This is a country where body doubles are hired to do prison time, so posing as the head of state is a rather plum assignment. Rather neatly explains the "President for Life" bit as well.

Double Jeopardy
The practice of hiring “body doubles” or “stand-ins” is well-documented by official Chinese media.
AshishA
BRFite
Posts: 543
Joined: 07 Feb 2018 22:10

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by AshishA »

^^But what If the body double kills the original and takes his place?
vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3982
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by vera_k »

Where's the need if the original is kaput?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by ramana »

US proposed G-2 with them as G1 and China as G2.
They gave US market access to enable this.
Once 2008 meltdown happened China realized they can be G1.
To ensure US stays G2, they started selling to the world marketplace and putting strategic chains on India - 2008 Beijing Accord with RaGa, about $550B trade surplus from 2008 to 2020, salami slicing, BRI and CPEC, String of pearls , five fingers strategy and so on and so forth.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5462
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Cyrano »

Facebook served me this paid piece today! Interesting how they are spinning it now for a few dollars more...
Calm in the eye of China’s regulatory storm
An inside view on why long-term positive outlook, not market carnage, will be the main takeaway from China’s regulatory tightening

The past three months have been nail-biting times for investors in China, with everything from a state crackdown on big tech to fears of a meltdown in the nation’s property sector. Sensational headlines trumpet a “turning tide” and an “existential crisis”.

It is easy to understand the worries. Since July, China’s tech giants have lost billions in value and the Nasdaq Golden Dragon China Index has fallen nearly 30 per cent*. Sectors as diverse as online education and pharmaceuticals have borne the brunt of government pressure.

A more sober view is that China is undergoing a painful yet necessary transition from an economy of fast growth to one of quality growth — to one that will ultimately reward patient and judicious investors.

“What people call the regulatory ‘storm’ is not a sudden event but actually a process that began years ago to help China transition to more quality-driven growth,” says Vincent Che, head of equities at Ping An Asset Management (Hong Kong). “We see a short-term pain, long-term gain mindset coming from the top.”

According to Che, China’s leadership has decided that the days of debt-fuelled investment and property-driven growth are over. He says China is instead pegging its future on cutting-edge innovation — driven by more than just a handful of tech giants — to boost productivity and avoid a middle-income trap of plateauing growth...
Tte full piece on FT is here:
https://www.ft.com/partnercontent/ping- ... 8QRy1QZhfQ
Kati
BRFite
Posts: 1850
Joined: 27 Jun 1999 11:31
Location: The planet Earth

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Kati »

Monkey-brain study with link to China's military roils top European university

https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive ... 021-11-18/
sumsumne
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 53
Joined: 15 May 2004 11:31
Location: Bangalore

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by sumsumne »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... nce-report

Work on ‘Chinese military base’ in UAE abandoned after US intervenes – report

Satellite images reportedly detected construction of secret facility at Khalifa port amid growing US-China rivalry
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4825
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by KLNMurthy »

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/am ... ina-196715

Please to read closely and recognize the Sugarland mouthpiece and the Paxi template.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5462
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Cyrano »

CCP's own apologists couldn't have grovelled any better.
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4825
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by KLNMurthy »

Cyrano wrote:CCP's own apologists couldn't have grovelled any better.

I wouldn’t say “groveling.” It’s propaganda and psyops directed at the readership which is the US national security community.

The Maitra article reads like a Global Times article tailored for a US readership. Main takeaways for example me were

- the paki-style nuclear threat: “Taiwan is a nuclear flashpoint.”

- the out-of-nowhere swipe at “illiberal and authoritarian” India. This is a ploy to exploit the existing dichotomy in US -India relationship—the “liberal” segment that makes India into a human rights villain, versus the pragmatic national security segment that wants an alliance with India.

My guess is that Maitra is a well-paid Chinese agent.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5462
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Cyrano »

Or is positioning himself to become one, in which case my qualification stands.
ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2616
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by ldev »

Confused and direction less Indian foreign policy and lack of clarity in strategic thinking. It is the wrong time to support China on any issue. The least that India could have done was not been part of this joint statement of the Foreign Ministers of Russia, China and India. And this is while some other countries are calling for a diplomatic boycott of the Winter Olympics.
India, Russia throw weight behind China to host Beijing Winter Olympics
India has joined Russia in expressing its support to China in hosting the Winter Olympics in Beijing in February next year. India made its position clear in a joint statement released after a virtual meeting of foreign ministers of India, China and Russia on Friday. "The Ministers expressed their support to China to host Beijing 2022 Winter Olympic and Paralympic Games," read a joint statement published on the website of India's Ministry of External Affairs.
srikandan
BRFite
Posts: 590
Joined: 20 Nov 2020 02:51

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by srikandan »

Don't see as directionless, as there is value for India in giving young india a chance to compete in the olympics -- young India that showing itself as having top-notch talent given the right resources and training. If the refrain for playing with Pakistan from the same crowd in the EU/US is "sports is to be separated from politics, so don't mind the pakis killing you Indians on a regular basis", why is that rule not applicable in this case? Enabling Indian athletes to compete in the next olympics looks like a priority for India compared to kowtowing to the power-play of EU/US that continue to do business with China in this post-COVID world, while trying to use these "hyooman rights" pressure points against China -- and this is the same crowd that wants to take down "fascist modi" for hyooman rites, so they are not exactly paragons of reason or virtue for India to take this boycott-olympics-because-human-rights virtue-signaling . If the US can "work with china" against India's interest (as it has done in Afghanisthan), for its own reasons, so can India.
ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2616
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by ldev »

There is one Indian participant in the Winter Games.

No country is calling for a sports boycott. They are calling for a diplomatic boycott i.e. diplomats etc. not attending. But no one other than Russia, India and China's usual friends like Pakistan and some African countries will issue statements in support of China. And for India to issue a statement in support when China is trying to gobble up Indian territory is lack of clarity in strategic thinking.
ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2616
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by ldev »

srikandan wrote:Don't see as directionless, as there is value for India in giving young india a chance to compete in the olympics -- young India that showing itself as having top-notch talent given the right resources and training. If the refrain for playing with Pakistan from the same crowd in the EU/US is "sports is to be separated from politics, so don't mind the pakis killing you Indians on a regular basis", why is that rule not applicable in this case? Enabling Indian athletes to compete in the next olympics looks like a priority for India compared to kowtowing to the power-play of EU/US that continue to do business with China in this post-COVID world, while trying to use these "hyooman rights" pressure points against China -- and this is the same crowd that wants to take down "fascist modi" for hyooman rites, so they are not exactly paragons of reason or virtue for India to take this boycott-olympics-because-human-rights virtue-signaling . If the US can "work with china" against India's interest (as it has done in Afghanisthan), for its own reasons, so can India.
This sounds suspiciously like Nehru saying that China and India must work together against the Imperialist west and supporting China over it's Security Council seat while China was gobbling up Tibet is quite OK just because at least India can have the satisfaction of sticking it to the West. Cut off your nose to spite your face.

Do what you want to do. But issuing a statement in support at this juncture is wrong. It sends all kinds of wrong signals. No country including India can cut off trade with China because of China's status as a global factory. But political statements do matter.
srikandan
BRFite
Posts: 590
Joined: 20 Nov 2020 02:51

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by srikandan »

So what exactly is so awesome about these countries dumping on China as far as India is concerned, that not being part of that crowd is seen as some sort of a strategic weakness. As long as India continues to defend itself w.r.t. china, why is all of these human-rights shenanigans by the western world any of India's concern? Why is it ok for the EU/US to be Janus-faced about China, to India's detriment, and why should India follow their lead on China?

India can take a stance on the Beijing olympics independent of its military posture with China, like most people can walk and eat samosas at the same time.

Just parading this as actions similar to Bandit Nehru's idiocy w.r.t. China is just hyperbole -- when India has not changed its posture at the border, and has not changed its sanctions against Chinese investments in India.
ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2616
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by ldev »

Consistency matters. A while back the External Affairs Minister said that there can be no normalcy in India China relations unless the border situation is resolved. China said to de-link the two i.e. tension at the border can co-exist with normal relations otherwise. In every single forum China either opposes India or stays silent, on India's NSG entry has consistently opposed India, on Afghanistan it did not attend the NSA meetings in Delhi etc. on Kashmir and Ladakh the less said the better. I cannot find a single instance of China supporting India in any forum. It has a consistent policy of opposing and undermining India everywhere. So what is surprising and perplexing about this statement is that it deviates from the EAM's own position as stated after the events of June 2020. You can bet that if the positions were reversed, there would not have been any Chinese statement of support for India. Or India should take a lesson from Russia. After the NSG meeting on Afghanistan in Delhi, a joint statement was issued. But Russia issued it's own statement which was at variance with the joint statement as issued by India as the host. India could have done the same. Why support China in any forum? Reciprocate the way China treats India.
srikandan
BRFite
Posts: 590
Joined: 20 Nov 2020 02:51

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by srikandan »

ldev: Consistency matters. A while back the External Affairs Minister said that there can be no normalcy in India China relations unless the border situation is resolved.China said to de-link the two i.e. tension at the border is consistent with normal relations otherwise.
The chinese statement was to delink Trade and China's hostile behavior -- the following link fromFeb 2021 makes that clear.

link

and this oone from China's mouthpiece in India

link

And India has not changed its stance on cessation of trade ties with China until the border row is resolved -- where is the inconsistency here? India would have to resume trade ties with China while the two armies face off in the LAC for India's position to be inconsistent.

China was added to the NSG by the same cartel that is now pretending they cannot override China's objections to India joining the NSG.
China has in recent months hit out at India’s economic measures, such as the banning of apps and tightening the curbs on investment, saying events on the border should not be linked to other aspects of relations.

India has reiterated its view that such a proposition is untenable, and normal relations can’t be restored until there is peace on the border and a full restoration of the status quo, prior to last summer’s transgressions.

Mr. Jaishankar underlined that view in his speech, saying that any expectation that the events on the border “can be brushed aside and that life can carry on undisturbed despite the situation in the border is simply not realistic.”
How is India supporting the Beijing olympics contradicting the above official stance of the GoI?
Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9263
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Amber G. »

I generally do not post or follow this thread - so apologies if this is already posted.

These statements from Minister Jaishankar are important as they were made at Russia-India-China dialogue. All these directed at China primarily. Such plain speaking is departure from past. Shows growing Indian confidence.
There is a nice thread of tweets by Jeff Smith

>>>
There is a crying need for reformed multilateralism. Defending the outcome of the Second World War does not mean freezing the world order at 1945 forever.
Translation: China, stop blocking India's bid to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council. The other four members have already signaled their support.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5462
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Cyrano »

China at the last minute, supported India's position on Coal "phase down" instead of "phase out" at the recent COP26 at Glasgow. Though China did that for its own reasons, they could have extracted a quid pro quo from India to support Beijing winter Olympics. If we fell for that, or some other righteous reason, then we have not learnt our lessons.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32226
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by chetak »

Cyrano wrote:China at the last minute, supported India's position on Coal "phase down" instead of "phase out" at the recent COP26 at Glasgow. Though China did that for its own reasons, they could have extracted a quid pro quo from India to support Beijing winter Olympics. If we fell for that, or some other righteous reason, then we have not learnt our lessons.
India will not go to the beijing winter olympics.

there has already been too much bad blood spilled for India to forget and forgive.

Modi would have gone ahead with the coal "phase down" as a non negotiable condition, with or without xi
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32226
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by chetak »

One more wicket down...........clean bowled onlee


Image
sanjayc
BRFite
Posts: 1091
Joined: 22 Aug 2016 21:40

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by sanjayc »

^^ India needs to step in with a soft loan and rescue Uganda from China. There are many benefits to this for us -- get a stake in running of the airport or ask for some other rights (military base / mining, etc.) India has much better goodwill in Africa than China. These are the opportunities that Indian Foreign Ministry should look for and step in quickly.
Locked