Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

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pankajs
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by pankajs »

Ananth Krishnan's book review by Sanjaya Baru

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/up-f ... 2020-09-19
Beyond borders
Krishnan offers interesting insig­hts into the play of power politics, the workings of the ‘workshop of the world’, a modernising cultural landscape and the corruption of China’s political ‘tigers’, compared to the ‘flies’ of Indian babudom. Non-specialists will find his survey of the India-China bilateral relationship useful in understanding the ongoing stand-off in the high Himalayas.

...
In the end, the answer to India’s China challenge lies at home. India must not only regain its economic momentum and continue to pursue all-round economic and human development, it must also retain its credentials as a secular, plural and liberal democracy. The world has to want a New India to overcome the China challenge.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Kati »

See how far the Panda has penetrated. If Biden gets the throne then it'll be business as usual. Only in the last four years Khan has gone gung-ho on Panda.

New York City police officer spied on fellow Tibetans for China, prosecutors charge

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/21/nypd-co ... agent.html
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Philip »

We have too many roadblocks and hurdles thanks to babudom,deliberate in many instances to extract money.Right now I am experiencing the same with a couple of issues. Repeated inspections to simply find the most minute infractions to justify file-shunting until moolah greases the gears. It has only got worse sadly despite the PM's call for more government and less governance.Red-tapism is running amok.Unless you are a corporate giant,the little man stands no chance. The annual compliances and paperwork even for small cos. is massive. Digitisation,OTPs,etc. have glitches,poor net connectivity, digital signatures,etc. cyberchaos abounds. My CA told me that foreign investors are livid having to repeat applications for ridiculous reasons,each time paying high fees again. The IT revolution has brought with it its own style of electronic computer babudom .Indian MSMEs are being annhilated by PRC imports on the one hand,and babudom and political greed on the other. Suicides are on the rise too. Babudom must be cut by a min. of 25% if we are to grow at the rate that can keep our young population employed.States are being shorn of constitutional powers too by the centre through ordinances. You CANNOT run the vast diverse country that we are solely from Delhi. Unless there is genuine decentralisation ,allowing states to function freely within their constitutional rights, progress wil be painfully slow, civil and social unrest will grow and we will sink further into the waters.

In the PRC, matters are streamlined esp. for foreign investment,why the PRC is way ahead of the pack and we are in a downward spiral. Drastic measures need to be taken to free Indians from the politico-babu red-tapism nexus,but will it meaningfully happen?
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by g.sarkar »

https://tfipost.com/2020/09/dont-link-u ... ay-expose/
‘Don’t link us with him,’ China isn’t worried about Rajeev Sharma but is afraid of what Rajeev Sharma may expose
Sanbeer Singh Ranhotra, 21 September 2020.

The arrest of ‘freelance journalist’ Rajeev Sharma by Delhi Police’s Special Cell has, on expected lines, sent India’s vested media fraternity and liberal cabal into a tizzy, who are floundering all over social media to defend what according to them is the wrongful arrest of a senior journalist and an attack no less on press freedom. While it was but natural for such anti-India specimens in the country to go berserk, what is interesting to note is the palpable fear which the Chinese are currently undergoing, so much so that chief propagandist at CCP mouthpiece Global Times – Hu Xijin has himself penned an article on why India and its people should not bring in Global Times’ name when referring to Rajeev Sharma.
“I think it’s very inappropriate for the Indian side to publicly link Global Times to this case and to create a sensation to attract attention,” Hu Xijin wrote on the arrest of the alleged journalist and subsequent confessions made by him to the Delhi Police. “They have obviously failed to show due respect to a Chinese media outlet. And it is particularly improper for the Indian government to do so,” he emotionally added. He also said, “I know some Indians have been unhappy with us. They can criticise us openly or argue with us, but it’s meaningless to play such a petty trick.”
Rajeev Sharma was found to be in possession of sensitive national security and classified documents and has also confessed to passing off information from the same to his Chinese handlers. The man has also written extensively for Global Times, which might explain the urgency with which the Chinese Foreign Ministry pamphlet attempted to distance himself from Sharma. However, in doing so, it has exposed a very palpable fear of having the Chinese nexus in Indian media blown anytime.
.....
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by arshyam »

Philip wrote:We have too many roadblocks and hurdles thanks to babudom,deliberate in many instances to extract money.Right now I am experiencing the same with a couple of issues. Repeated inspections to simply find the most minute infractions to justify file-shunting until moolah greases the gears. It has only got worse sadly despite the PM's call for more government and less governance.Red-tapism is running amok.Unless you are a corporate giant,the little man stands no chance. The annual compliances and paperwork even for small cos. is massive. Digitisation,OTPs,etc. have glitches,poor net connectivity, digital signatures,etc. cyberchaos abounds. My CA told me that foreign investors are livid having to repeat applications for ridiculous reasons,each time paying high fees again. The IT revolution has brought with it its own style of electronic computer babudom .Indian MSMEs are being annhilated by PRC imports on the one hand,and babudom and political greed on the other. Suicides are on the rise too. Babudom must be cut by a min. of 25% if we are to grow at the rate that can keep our young population employed.States are being shorn of constitutional powers too by the centre through ordinances. You CANNOT run the vast diverse country that we are solely from Delhi. Unless there is genuine decentralisation ,allowing states to function freely within their constitutional rights, progress wil be painfully slow, civil and social unrest will grow and we will sink further into the waters.

In the PRC, matters are streamlined esp. for foreign investment,why the PRC is way ahead of the pack and we are in a downward spiral. Drastic measures need to be taken to free Indians from the politico-babu red-tapism nexus,but will it meaningfully happen?
While the thrust of your post is on the money, could you please clarify what consitutional powers were appropriated by the centre through ordinances? (In the political thread, since it is OT here)

Point is, there are enough things to genuinely improve (many of which you've called out), but a wrong diagnosis would make the cure even worse.
chola
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by chola »

Philip wrote:We have too many roadblocks and hurdles thanks to babudom,deliberate in many instances to extract money.Right now I am experiencing the same with a couple of issues. Repeated inspections to simply find the most minute infractions to justify file-shunting until moolah greases the gears. It has only got worse sadly despite the PM's call for more government and less governance.Red-tapism is running amok.Unless you are a corporate giant,the little man stands no chance. The annual compliances and paperwork even for small cos. is massive. Digitisation,OTPs,etc. have glitches,poor net connectivity, digital signatures,etc. cyberchaos abounds. My CA told me that foreign investors are livid having to repeat applications for ridiculous reasons,each time paying high fees again. The IT revolution has brought with it its own style of electronic computer babudom .Indian MSMEs are being annhilated by PRC imports on the one hand,and babudom and political greed on the other. Suicides are on the rise too. Babudom must be cut by a min. of 25% if we are to grow at the rate that can keep our young population employed.States are being shorn of constitutional powers too by the centre through ordinances. You CANNOT run the vast diverse country that we are solely from Delhi. Unless there is genuine decentralisation ,allowing states to function freely within their constitutional rights, progress wil be painfully slow, civil and social unrest will grow and we will sink further into the waters.

In the PRC, matters are streamlined esp. for foreign investment,why the PRC is way ahead of the pack and we are in a downward spiral. Drastic measures need to be taken to free Indians from the politico-babu red-tapism nexus,but will it meaningfully happen?
Epitome of license raj. Babus exercising their departmental powers as fiefdoms had been a bane since the Britshits installed the system 200 years ago. We never had a revolution unlike Cheen to clear away thesw kinds of established but odious structures.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by RaviB »

suryag wrote:RaviB garu - looks like your punch line is coming true "I am scared that my sensitive son won't survive the Tibetan cold. Why are we fighting over this useless wasteland?" reports of soldiers being carried to the base hospital
Haha, hilarious and expected.

I think I'm going to give myself a Sun-Tzu Medal for Military Perspicacity (STAMP)

Image

As the great Master says, "act warm when cold, breath hard when air-pressure low"
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Nihat »

One thing that I cannot get my head around is that if China is such a long term strategic thinking, why are they hell bent on pushing conflict in India, given our deep connections with Tibet and the sheer size and scale of the region.

Do they think if it's as that peaceful a country so as to rest assured that Tibet will not burn for decades to come if they try to pull this kind of funny business.

Surely the use of SFF would have sent a not so subtle message.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by SSridhar »

Disintegrating the Enemy: The PLA’s Info-Messaging Jacquleine N Deal, Army War College
Excerpts
Abstract: The DoD can exploit weaknesses in Chinese military attempts at political warfare, or “enemy disintegration,” most recently observed in PLA media on the subject of the pandemic. Targeted information efforts will signal the United States’ refusal to be intimidated, expose untruths in Chinese government messaging to its citizens, and reassure relevant third parties of US military resolve.
By dividing the United States internally and from allies and partners, People’s Liberation Army (PLA) political warfare aims to deter hostile action against the People’s Republic of China (PRC) and ensure victory in the US-China competition. To be sure, the PLA is just one of several Chinese party-state institutions charged with waging political warfare and disintegrating enemies—from so-called “Wolf Warrior” diplomats to Chinese Communist Party (CCP) United Front agents of co-option and subversion. . . . .From late June through early July 2020, two series of articles criticizing the US response to COVID-19 appeared on a special COVID-19-themed page of China Military Online, the official website of the PLA. . . . . Few in the United States seem to have noticed the articles or their nasty illustrations. The episode nonetheless offers an illuminating case study of PLA political warfare. Both series attacked the United States and were thus intended to boost the PLA’s spirit and Chinese pride domestically. But beyond this agenda, the series aimed at different audiences in order to advance a common project—what the PLA calls “enemy disintegration work,” conducted in peacetime and in war alike. . . . It is possible to reverse engineer the respective political warfare goals of the two series because while both ended up on the dedicated China Military Online COVID-19 page, they appeared at different times, in different languages, and offered distinctive messages. . . . The fact that China Military Online’s retorts fell on deaf ears suggests a deficitof PLA retaliatory options. Deconstructing the PLA’s unsuccessful messaging reveals approaches that if applied by the Department of Defense to the PLA, promise to pay strategic dividends.
Jun Sheng [a PLA Daily pen-name] was thus advertised from the start as a megaphone for China’s geostrategic goals, transmitting both reassurances and threats. Of the more than 30 articles published under the byline in its first three years of existence, several offered cheerleading for the Belt and Road Initiative, while others warned India about territorial incursions; warned Japan not to cross the PRC over disputed maritime territory or in relations with Taiwan, the United States, Australia, and India; and warned the United States about arm sales to Taiwan. Why would this kind of material, essentially diplomatic or political in nature, appear in the PL A Daily rather than, say, the People’s Daily, the PRC’s largest newspaper and the official outlet of the CCP’s Central Committee? Some of Jun Sheng’s stories have been reprinted in the People’s Daily, but as Mark Stokes has emphasized, “enemy disintegration work” (wajie dijun gongzuo [瓦解敌军工作]—literally, “disintegrate the enemy work”) has always been a key PLA mission and continues to be codified in the PLA’s “Political Work Regulations.” The latest political work regulations stipulate enemy disintegration is to be accomplished in peacetime by attending to “the situation of foreign forces, enemy forces, and national separatist forces at home and abroad,” and in wartime through “public opinion, psychological, and legal warfare.” In addition to providing the muscle behind threats, then, the PLA is a source and executor of the Chinese Communist Party political-warfare strategy.
From the perspective of the Marxist-Leninist way of war, enemy disintegration work is an essential precursor to the use of force.
The lesson the CCP learned while working with the Soviet Union in its founding decades was the party could not expect to win in combat unless it first subverted the opponent. > . . To this day, the PLA boasts its enemy disintegration work led to recruitment of over one-fifth of the KMT army, including more than 1,400 senior officers.
The Conclusions of the above article are useful to us also.
The PLA’s history and example suggest pathways for enhanced DoD political warfare to send direct messages to Beijing and to send tailored messages about Beijing to relevant third parties. In other words, PRC political warfare efforts that fall short of their mark in the United States may nonetheless be used to inspire US options.

There is no reason for American efforts to mirror exactly the PLA’s efforts. Where the Central Military Commission seems to believe it can weaken the United States by amplifying disagreements over China policy, DoD messaging might highlight our understanding of PLA weaknesses or problems. For instance, the Defense Department could call attention to the numerous veterans’ protests that have reportedly broken out across the PRC in recent years, or the scrapping in 2017 of the PLA’s National Defense Students program, which was launched in 1998 to train reserve officers at civilian universities. Could there be issues with PLA recruiting and morale?

Disclosure of PLA issues would signal to Xi Jinping and other CCP elites that for all their bluster, the United States is not intimidated. With economic inequality in the PRC at an all-time high, the CCP justifies its privileges on the grounds that it has advanced the Chinese nation and is uniquely positioned to protect it. The Chinese people have a right to know their sacrifices have been in vain—the party-state’s requisitions and repression are not strengthening the country. Finally, the disclosures would signal to relevant third parties that the US military retains its edge and, just as important, its resolve.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by nam »

Nihat wrote:One thing that I cannot get my head around is that if China is such a long term strategic thinking, why are they hell bent on pushing conflict in India, given our deep connections with Tibet and the sheer size and scale of the region.

Do they think if it's as that peaceful a country so as to rest assured that Tibet will not burn for decades to come if they try to pull this kind of funny business.

Surely the use of SFF would have sent a not so subtle message.
There is no long term thinking. The Chinis are good at deciding when to fire the gun and when not to fire.

They made the decision to join US, because USSR was the biggest threat. Now joining Russia, because US is the biggest threat.

They are fundamentally a bigger & wealthier Pakistan, but not as obsessed with war as Pak.

Delusional about ruling the world is the same..
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by kit »

nam wrote:
Nihat wrote:One thing that I cannot get my head around is that if China is such a long term strategic thinking, why are they hell bent on pushing conflict in India, given our deep connections with Tibet and the sheer size and scale of the region.

Do they think if it's as that peaceful a country so as to rest assured that Tibet will not burn for decades to come if they try to pull this kind of funny business.

Surely the use of SFF would have sent a not so subtle message.
There is no long term thinking. The Chinis are good at deciding when to fire the gun and when not to fire.

They made the decision to join US, because USSR was the biggest threat. Now joining Russia, because US is the biggest threat.

They are fundamentally a bigger & wealthier Pakistan, but not as obsessed with war as Pak.

Delusional about ruling the world is the same..
I really dont think they want to "rule" the world but they want to control it in the sense the other countries give market access in their terms., fot this purpose they have bribed , threatened and forced the bureaucracy in other nations, tried to change public opinion by paid news and buying out the media.They are basically a mercentile nation but they are not definitely fighters. When the $hit hits their fan , i suspect they will have far more casualties and damage than the opposite side. Now if only those SE asian countries tried standing up to the bully ., realising their enemies were inside and being bought out ., the Chinese dragon will reveal that it has been what it has been, just a balloon waiting to be punctured.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by nam »

They want to rule like US, but in an emperor style. US because of democracy tolerates criticism from any country. CCP with history of emperor and all doesn't tolerate criticism. Hence all the wolf warrior drama..

I feel it is a myth, that Chinese prefer not to fight. They have a history of violence. And still use violence. They are a bully nation and bullies back off when the opponent can cause similar level of violence.

They haven't attacked us because we are quite strong.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by darshan »

Killing and violence may not be the same as fighting. When one looks at their ability to get things done, one can't rule out long term thinking. Or at least longer than present India's thinking. Many examples can be found from marching to India's border while handling India's political leaders in 1950s to creating local MIC to be able to build IT industries to AI industry. Just choosing to be aligned to someone and be right about it isn't enough. One still needs long term thinking to know which objectives to achieve after the alignment. With their consistent long term stealing and espionage, they have out run many in the world so it's hard to say that they can't think long term. Only time will tell whatever xitler is doing fits into some successful long term plan or not. Note that I have said successful as long term planning is required even to march to Indian border and to capitalize on the virus.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Mort Walker »

From a WhatsApp message:
How did China become a 15 trillion dollar economy and India is not?
CHINA :

Chinas Academic Talent Search Programmes. The Best and the Brightest are identified - and fully sponsored for education in US, UK, Australia, Japan or Singapore as well as Education in Chinese Universities like Tong Ji or Liauquong.

No Minorities or Majorities. A Bao Minority Scholar topped the Lists in 2019 and is presently studying graduating in a Chinese University and will likely do his masters in USA at Stanford or MIT.

INDIA :

69% Seats in Engineering Colleges and Medical Colleges are reserved based on Community and Caste.

The Best Talents find themselves abandoned by their Own Governments - Doesnt matter if its Indira Gandhi or Rajiv Gandhi or MMS or Vajpayee or Narendra Modi.

In 2020 - In 8 States - only 0.9% Doctors came from the Forward Castes and only 9.3% Engineers (8 States include - AP, Tamilnadu, Kerala, Bihar, Rajashtan, Maharashtra, West Bengal, Madhya Pradesh)

80% Students who study Masters in US or UK or Australia or Canada or Europe or Singapore - return home within 15 years to China to serve their Government Contracts in Research or Engineering or Medicine or Biosciences.

They are offered many benefits - Less Taxes, More incentives, The Gai Bo Program etc etc.

Less than 7% Students return home to India after 15 years. Sure theyll do all this flag waving and chanting nonsense but ask them to come home and they will flee before you can say the word “Ghar Wapsi” (My own son - is a huge admirer of Modi but ask him to come to Modis India and he will scamper)

The reason - There is nothing for them in India.

Zero Opportunities except a lot of wind and gas from various ministers “We will do this by 2020…..2030 etc etc”

Economic Development Board sponsored EY awards to Top Entrepreneurs who are awarded $ 10 Million each for their businesses. Xiangshei Xcrow won in 2016 and today has a 81% business domination in China and Asia Pacific.

Chinese government invests $ 70 Billion annually in Innovation and Technopreneurships - the result of which is Tik Tok or Machine Learning AIs or a plethora of advanced patents in China from 2010.

Indian Governments contribution to Entrepreneurship. Negligible Tax Incentives, Negligible Benefits but enough talk to fill 10 newspapers for 10 years.

The result is most of our entrepreneurs are Hair Cutting Saloon owners rather than owners of Intellectual Technology or Property or own cutting edge MLAIs.

Yet they are 10 times overvalued like Byjus or Ola Cabs ….in a plethora of one Con after another.

Our Government contributes Rs. 100 Crore for Entrepreneurs but so far no idea where bulk of the money is?

Every Chinese company over a certain revenue must contribute at least 15% of its profits for Research and Development.

The Total R & D Investment by China is a whopping - $ 317 Billion annually or nearly 2.15% of the GDP.

The Total R & D Investment of the whole world is $ 1.64 Trillion - so China spends a whopping 19.33% of the Worlds Research Budget and comes next only to USA (40.64%). Yet in 1990 - USA spent 70.95% of the Worlds Budget while China spent 0.06%. From 1990 to 2020 - the growth of 0.06% to 19.33% is Meteoric.

Out of this - Chinese companies spend 65.8% of this money compared to Foreign Companies which spend only 34.2% of this money

Local Chinese Research outspends Foreign Research by almost 100%

Result - Patents and Advancement

Corporates dont spend 50 paise for Research except for some pomp and show facility. With good students straining to run away abroad - the researchers left are of mediocre quality in general.

India spends $ 26 Billion or 0.85% of the GDP on Research and Development which is around 1.59% of the Worlds R & D Budget. In 2015 - India spent $ 36 Billion and this has fallen sharply over the last 5 years.

Out of this 96.2% of the money is spent by Foreign Companies while only 3.8% is spent by Indian Companies.

Local Indian Research is barely 3% of the Foreign Research

Results - Haircutters and Clerks

Indigineous Defence Industry was a project of the Chinese in the year 1988. They began with lousy fifth rate products but by today - their productions are nearly 80 - 85% or even in some cases 90 - 95% of US or European Standards Manufacture.

They have even began exporting some of these products albeit to countries like Brazil or Pakistan.

They make indigenous Wind Tunnels, Advanced Turbines, Turbofans, Avionics Systems and though they start with Fifth Rate Quality, they always keep improving and within 7–10 years have now achieved around 80% - 85% Global Standard. By 2030 - It is believed they will achieve global standards as they have began investing heavily in Metallurgy and Titanium Alloy Processes and Carbon Fibre Processes.

Best Part - these Industries generate employment for 36 Million Chinese combined.

70 Years of Independence, British Legacy, Big Industries already available - Yet even to this day - we import almost 80% of our advanced armaments and boast in pride about the 5 French Rafales across 100 news arcticles and about the S400.

We have been unable to produce a single indigenous Wind Tunnel, Advanced Turbine , Turbofan or Avionics System and import everything from Russia or Israel or UK or Belgium.

Yet - we mock at the Chinese Armaments calling them “Stolen” or “Reverse Engineered” and continuing to wait in queue for 5 years for a mere 36 Aircraft

Conclusions:-

(a) The Chinese are One Nation. We are a Divided Nation. They want China to achieve supremacy - we want our Community, our Caste, our Religion, our State before focussing on our Country.

(b) The Chinese have always believed - Talent should be cultivated and aimed for Ultimate Growth and Development.

We have always believed - Talent comes after Family, Wealth, Caste and Community

(c) The Chinese harness their Gareeb to work in the National Labor Force Scheme and make them productive and use their wealth for promoting research, production and talent

We use all our wealth for feeding the Gareeb, robbing banks to give them subsidies and ultimately having zilch for promoting anything except nonsense and propaganda.

(d) China lies all the time about Political things but are blatantly truthful about everything else. They never ever heap praises on mediocre talent, not even on top talent

We praise the most mediocre of mediocre. We are the best at this. IIT Delhi develops cure for cancer. Anand Mahindra develops 7500/- Ventilator. Drone Pratap flew 600 Drones from Waste. Cutting Edge Robot Technologies etc etc etc

That is why they are at 15 Trillion and we are at 2.87 Trillion despite at one point of time in 1931 - We were ahead of them and in 1957 we were almost on par with them and even in 1977- we were nearly 75% of their level compared to barely 17% today.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by m_saini »

^ Sounds like CCP propaganda.
"China wan nation, You divided; Chinah cultivate talent, India cultivate caste" etc etc

We are not them, they are not us. Why bother comparing the best parts about an authoritarian gov to a democratic one? Yes, they can plan 40-50 years in advance and we can never.

Chinese grass will always looks greener. They are not a rule; they're an exception. It's all wishy-washy to self-flagellate looking at them but how many of us would work slave labor, get our organs harvested for speaking against a gov, let a gov run people down with tanks, implement things like the "Great leap forward", and wipe out our entire culture; to get there?

Because that's what it takes.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by nam »

Quiet few goras, who went in to China believing all the "achievement", till they realized the price you pay to be there. Regular police visit, any time visa ban or exit ban, 6 months jail without reason or charge, kids getting educated in propaganda driven school etc.. :roll:

Imagine being an American and your kid in Chinese school getting brain washed that Americans are out to get you...
nam
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by nam »

The way to grow in China is to be in CCP.. A form of caste system! Chinese are 15T not because their people are better, it is because their leaders made a rational choice, while our leaders were more Commie than the Chinese commie.

The Chinese switched side and this allowed American, Japanes, SK & Taiwanese companies to open shop in China. Our leaders came to their senses only when we were nearly bankrupt.

And it is our bl***dy luck that Chinese didn't invest in English education. Otherwise, along with manufacturing, even IT services would have gone to China.

Our leaders were busy with Socialism nonsense. Even now, hesitate to have closer relation with US, when we have got ZERO economic gains by being on the Soviet/Russian side.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by darshan »

Trump tells UN to hold China accountable for coronavirus pandemic
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- ... s-pandemic


China jails property tycoon who called Xi a 'clown'
https://www.wionews.com/world/china-jai ... own-329351
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Suraj »

nam wrote:They want to rule like US, but in an emperor style. US because of democracy tolerates criticism from any country. CCP with history of emperor and all doesn't tolerate criticism. Hence all the wolf warrior drama..

I feel it is a myth, that Chinese prefer not to fight. They have a history of violence. And still use violence. They are a bully nation and bullies back off when the opponent can cause similar level of violence.

They haven't attacked us because we are quite strong.
I think reality is more nuanced. Yes they have a history of violence. But - all that violence is directed inward. China dominates the list of most devastating wars by casualties. Half the top 10 are internal Chinese wars and rebellions. This isn't simply about them having a large population. Greater India historically had similar population, and yet India has only one entry in the top 20 - the Mughal-Maratha Wars from 300-350 years ago, which is #16. In comparison, Chinese rebellions account for half the top 10 .

When it comes to external wars, China has really gone all in just once - in the Korean War. It has been credibly argued that the Korean intervention was largely to cement CPC control over China and ensure that their rule wouldn't weaken within a year of them coming to power (in 1949). Beyond that, Chinese conflicts have all been localized, taking advantage of a weak or distracted rival (India in 1962, Vietnam right after the conclusion of the Vietnam war).

Otherwise, the preferred Chinese doctrine is to win by being overbearing and compelling the other side to give up. They don't deploy soldiers to shoot and make their claim. They deploy the construction personnel to build and make things a fait accompli, then continuously perform incremental salami slicing. This approach stops working in some places. USSR for example, responded viciously in 1969, setting the doctrine that Russia would respond with disproportionate force. Mao was always more paranoid about USSR than of the west, leading to the Sino-US thaw.

A defensive response to Chinese salami slicing doesn't work, as 6 decades of Indian strategy shoes. It is too costly because defense requires more effort. What could work is the new Indian doctrine of continuous LAC 'readjustments' that salami slice them instead. Now that they have the infrastructure over testy ground, they need to bear the much higher costs of defending that.

Like a bully, China thrives on a rival who is too unsure of how to respond. It won't take head on against another country with a long record of being a bully when it has to (Russia), but entities like India, Philippines or Indonesia, it sees as sufficiently pliant that it can just build a road across, a collection of observation posts wherever suits them, or even an artificial island where needed, then bluster 'what are you going to do about it ?'

When dealing with others, China has historically always preferred to take the path of deceit first to build a position strong enough for them to put up a bluff behind. They don't shoot and overwhelm the US way because they don't have the base of mobile assets and logistics to do that. So now, as India starts taking back piece after piece of LAC and continuously redefine LAC to suit us, it compels China to do something they're not used to doing - deal with someone with the military capability to dismantle their bullying facade on the ground.

The instinctive response of a bully to pushback is to puff their chest out even more - "HQ6s in Tibet / IRBMs in Aksai Chin / Liaoning dropped in Pangong Tso" . All tailored to the same goal, i.e. look as overbearing and threatening as possible and compel the other side to retreat. Their set pieces here are very predictable.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by rpartha »

^^^ very nicely written.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by rpartha »

Prelude to QUAD??

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/india- ... 259727.cms

India, Australia to kick off naval exercise in eastern India ..
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by ranjbe »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvhMLisRokA
A Canadian analyst view of why China dies it; China's Five finger approach.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by g.sarkar »

nam wrote:The way to grow in China is to be in CCP.. A form of caste system! Chinese are 15T not because their people are better, it is because their leaders made a rational choice, while our leaders were more Commie than the Chinese commie.
The Chinese switched side and this allowed American, Japanes, SK & Taiwanese companies to open shop in China. Our leaders came to their senses only when we were nearly bankrupt.
The system is a caste system developed by the Communist party of the Soviet Union and followed by all the Warsaw pact countries and China. It is called "Nomenklatura". For more details look it up. In Soviet Union around 3% of the population were allowed to become a member of the party. They controlled every thing, including media, finance, trade, industry, defense, and all institutions of the state, large or small.To get any promotion to a position where you had people reporting to you, you had to join the party. If you refused, you were marked out and your career was sidelined. Along with other privileges, Nomenklatura allowed its members to shop in special shops where western consumer products were available. The influence wielded by the members of this group was/is immense.
Gautam
PS I knew people that were in this Nomenklatura, but this is OT here.
Last edited by g.sarkar on 23 Sep 2020 02:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by nam »

Suraj wrote: I think reality is more nuanced. Yes they have a history of violence. But - all that violence is directed inward. China dominates the list of most devastating wars by casualties. Half the top 10 are internal Chinese wars and rebellions. This isn't simply about them having a large population. Greater India historically had similar population, and yet India has only one entry in the top 20 - the Mughal-Maratha Wars from 300-350 years ago, which is #16. In comparison, Chinese rebellions account for half the top 10 .

When it comes to external wars, China has really gone all in just once - in the Korean War. It has been credibly argued that the Korean intervention was largely to cement CPC control over China and ensure that their rule wouldn't weaken within a year of them coming to power (in 1949). Beyond that, Chinese conflicts have all been localized, taking advantage of a weak or distracted rival (India in 1962, Vietnam right after the conclusion of the Vietnam war).
It is true that the biggest victim of Chinese violence has been Chinese themselves. However my view is that the choice on whom to use the violence is their impression they have of the victim.

With the example of Vietnam, the war was indiscriminate. There was no clear objective, yet PLA had enough volunteers to fight it out. Inferior you are in the eyes of the Chinese, higher the level of violence.

The Chinese knew in 62, that they were not fighting India's full strength. They compromised to prevent a counter attack from us. The 71 war showed we are no walk over. Our 74 test, put a lid on their expectation of any future victory.

If we are seen as weak, we will face war. CCP has enough zombies, with enough firepower to create a high level of violence.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by darshan »

Hell xitler
'Without Comprehensive Reforms, UN Faces A Crisis Of Confidence': PM Modi Calls For Reformed Multilaterism At UN Meet
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/without-c ... at-un-meet
....
He stressed that the world cannot fight today's challenges with outdated structures." Without comprehensive reforms, the UN faces a crisis of confidence," PM Modi said.

"Our working methods need to keep pace and adapt. We support the ongoing reforms by the Secretary-General. We reiterate our call for reforms of the three of the principal organs of the UN. We commit to instil new life in the discussions on the reform of the SC and continue the work to revitalise the General Assembly and strengthen the Economic and Social Council," PM Modi said
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Suraj »

nam wrote:If we are seen as weak, we will face war. CCP has enough zombies, with enough firepower to create a high level of violence.
This part is definitely true. An appearance of weakness or lack of resolve emboldens a bully. There is no way the USSR would have countenanced something like G219 being constructed across what they considered their territory. The retaliation would have been swift and enough to discourage any such foolhardiness.

However, this is not an invitation to bemoan mistakes of the past. The latest moves by the government to drop the old static defense paradigm at the LAC and instead enable the IA to gain all the leverage and territory it needs to hold position, is a good one. Pretty much all recent messaging has been strong and resolute. At the very least it lets them know they're not going to win by bluster.

They can start a war if they're willing to pay the political price of what will be a very bloody and very well publicized conflict, because they've no control over the messaging on our end. A war means the sight of massive Chinese casualties they cannot suppress, potentially Indian forces disposing of Chinese dead whom they won't claim (as in Kargil) and more. The messaging from the front has so far painted them in less than charitable terms - p*rn watching conscripts who are regularly being recycled due to altitude acclimatization trouble.

We aren't yet strong enough to message more strongly than 'pushing us back will cost you a lot - especially the political loss of face of being unable to deliver a swift and clear victory' . But right now, that alone is a far stronger message than CPC expected. Our goal is to extend that message in future to 'the moment you show weakness, we will expand and grab territory that is our claim'.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Kati »

Some insidious panda moves:
1. As discussed many moons ago that CCP's agenda has been not only to put its own ethnic people with the western scientific bodies (like NSF, NIH in the US, and the Canadian NRC), but also to get inside the western utility and energy companies. They have been quite successful in achieving that, i.e., having their own people who know the core infrastructural nitty-gritty details of mechanisms.
2. Next, CCP encouraged the young Han families who had their children born in the western countries to bring them and leave them with the grandparents until they reached 18 years to claim the western citizenship (passport babies). In panda-land the state system meticulously tracked these passport babies, kept in close touch with these kids while they went through the panda schools, trained them, and brainwashed them to do "something" for the "ancestral land". These Han kids, after turning 18, and returning to their respective passport countries, have had single focused agenda to do something for their "ancestral land".
3. Those Han kids born and brought up in the western countries, particularly in the US and Canada, were also tracked meticulously. Many of them were invited during prolonged summer breaks for visiting and interacting with people in their "ancestral land". These kids act and speak like any other western kids, and have western first names. In the last ten years (the time period during which this has been noticed) these western Han youngsters have visited several Asian countries (that border their "ancestral land"), India included, and extensively toured the countries. They were given the assignments to write "journals" about their travel, detailing all aspects in fine details. For example, during Kumbh Mela, what did the monks eat, who were the other western visitors,, etc etc.
4. Lately, Khan is checking the details of many Han people in its own land, and those coming from the panda-land, carefully. So looks like CCP has activated another plan. It is reaching out to the countries like Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia (mainly ASEAN countries) that have a sizable ethnic Han (or, Han mixed) populace. Panda is assiduously funding students to visit the panda-land for studies, meetings, conferences, etc. Then grooming them to be sent to the western universities for "higher studies". Since these ASEAN countries have close business and diplomatic relationship with the western countries, panda thinks that these newly groomed agents would stay under the radar, and provide it with valuable info.
.....
Just sharing some 2 paise worth of info.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by sanjaykumar »

Among the dross are some gems. That is interesting. I believe I met one of these precious jewels of the motherland. He was British by nationality.

Unfortunately, he seemed to have gone native, touring rural India for months, and was already talking of going back to India as we talked on a Delhi- London flight.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by rpartha »

pankajs wrote:Ananth Krishnan's book review by Sanjaya Baru

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/up-f ... 2020-09-19
Beyond borders
Krishnan offers interesting insig­hts into the play of power politics, the workings of the ‘workshop of the world’, a modernising cultural landscape and the corruption of China’s political ‘tigers’, compared to the ‘flies’ of Indian babudom. Non-specialists will find his survey of the India-China bilateral relationship useful in understanding the ongoing stand-off in the high Himalayas.

...
In the end, the answer to India’s China challenge lies at home. India must not only regain its economic momentum and continue to pursue all-round economic and human development, it must also retain its credentials as a secular, plural and liberal democracy. The world has to want a New India to overcome the China challenge.
Did Vietnam fit the above category? No. I think these are written to make ourselves feel bad and give in easily... we have to fight back at a certain stage and give it back even if there are losses...
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by SSridhar »

US-China tensions take centre stage at UN as Trump accuses Beijing of unleashing ‘plague’ - Straits Times
US President Donald Trump told the United Nations General Assembly on Tuesday (Sept 22) that China must be held accountable for having “unleashed” Covid-19 on the world, prompting Beijing to accuse him of “lies” and abusing the UN platform to provoke confrontation.

He accused Beijing of allowing people to leave China in the early stages of the outbreak to infect the world while shutting down domestic travel.

“We must hold accountable the nation which unleashed this plague onto the world, China,” he said in remarks taped on Monday and delivered remotely to the General Assembly due to the pandemic.

“The Chinese government, and the World Health Organisation (WHO) – which is virtually controlled by China – falsely declared that there was no evidence of human-to-human transmission,” he said.

“Later, they falsely said people without symptoms would not spread the disease... The United Nations must hold China accountable for their actions.”

In his UN address, French President Emmanuel Macron called for an international mission under UN auspices to visit China’s Xinjiang region to look into concerns about alleged abuses of Muslims there.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by pankajs »

Embedded piece by Washingtontime.com

https://twitter.com/BillGertz/status/13 ... 2669227014
Secretary of State Mike Pompeo says appeasement of China by past administrations has produced the dangers evident today, and the Trump administration has halted the policy and taken a new approach. My interview.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by SRajesh »

g.sarkar wrote:
nam wrote:The way to grow in China is to be in CCP.
The system is a caste system developed by the Communist party of the Soviet Union and followed by all the Warsaw pact countries and China. It is called "Nomenklatura".
Gautam
PS I knew people that were in this Nomenklatura, but this is OT here.
I have a colleague who is from Russia : says they even had separate theatres for Movies. common folks had to watch soviet block/Russian or Indian Movies. Privileged could watch the Hollywood ones.!!!
When he is bored he belts out 'Mera Jutha hain japani' kind of songs!! :lol: :lol:
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by pankajs »

https://www.ft.com/content/e76a835b-27d ... 3e61754ec6
China is escalating its punishment diplomacy
Just two days before President Xi Jinping was scheduled to speak to Chancellor Angela Merkel last week, China blocked all pork imports from Germany.

The ostensible reason was the death of a single German wild boar from African swine fever, a disease already endemic in China. But some analysts jumped to a different conclusion. To them, this was the latest example of Beijing’s coercive commercial diplomacy — an evolving facet of Chinese statecraft that has come to dominate relations with several countries.

...
A secret threat is not much of a threat so, while denying any connection in public, Beijing will quietly make clear to the offending party that their actions, statements or policies are the reason for the punishment. State media often spell it out more clearly, as do China’s “wolf warrior” diplomats.

These warnings tend to be phrased like something out of The Godfather: “Nice car industry you have there Germany, pity if something were to happen to it if you don’t invite Huawei into your 5G networks.”

The extralegal, plausibly deniable measures are designed to avoid cases being brought at the World Trade Organization and to allow Beijing to dial the action up or down without a formal change in policy or law. Beijing has vastly expanded the practice, with more than half the identifiable examples since 2010 happening in the last three years. This is because the tactic works.

...
Today, China claims to be the biggest trade partner to 130 countries and regions and the demonstration effect — “killing the chicken to scare the monkeys” as it is known in China — is often enough to cow others into compliance.

...
This highlights the limits of such coercion. Wielding trade and market access as a political weapon can hurt your own companies and economy. It annihilates trust and pushes countries to diversify away from China to make them less vulnerable to coercion. This is already happening with South Korea, Japan and Taiwan. All now have formal policies to reduce their economic reliance on China. But the pushback has been piecemeal, with many countries preferring to capitulate to Beijing’s demands to resume trade and market access.

What is needed now is a multilateral mechanism for countries to study examples of this coercion. The next step is for the EU, US and other democracies to form a united front and formally agree they will not be played off against each other when individual countries are “punished” by Beijing.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by AshishA »

Adding to Suraj ji's earlier post about reverse salami slicing their territory. I believe we would have been much much successful than the Chinese in doing that. The Chinese don't report their failures or mistakes due to the fear of being scape goated and spending the rest of their lives in Chinese re education camps unless it becomes too big for the lower level to handle. They mostly try to hide it and keep it under wraps. We have seen it wuhan, SARS case etc etc. And aren't most of the soldiers doing their 2 year internships there. They wouldn't want to get caught up in all these and say goodbye to whatever careers they have in the future. So if we kept taking inch by inch daring the bully to do something, I believe they won't be able to do anything. And even if they did, what are they going to do about it? Go to war? Lose their one child emperors? Isn't it just a frozen desolate land where nothing grows? Hell they can't even take back the cities a stones throw away from Chinese mainland that currently belongs to Taiwan. And they will fight over a frozen Ladakh?
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by VinodTK »

Australian Think Tank Maps Hundreds of Suspected Detention Facilities in Xinjiang
The Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI) launched its Xinjiang Data Project on September 24, a new database that maps and identifies 380 re-education camps, detention centers, and prisons in the Chinese territory.ASPI said it was “the most comprehensive dataset on Xinjiang’s carceral system in the world.”“The evidence in this database shows that despite Chinese officials’ claims about detainees ‘graduating’ from the camps in December 2019, significant investment in the construction of suspected new detention facilities has continued throughout 2019 and 2020,” ASPI said. “At least 60 facilities have seen new construction since mid 2019 and 14 facilities remain under construction at mid 2020, according to the latest satellite imagery available.”Chinese authorities launched a region-wide crackdown in Xinjiang in 2017. According to Amnesty International, authorities in Xinjiang have detained an estimated one million predominantly Muslim ethnic minority people.In June, a group of 50 UN experts expressed their alarm regarding the “repression of fundamental freedoms” in China, and urged the UN Human Rights Council to “take all appropriate measures” to monitor the human rights situation in China.“The UN independent experts believe it is time for renewed attention on the human rights situation in the country, particularly in light of the moves against the people of the Hong Kong SAR, minorities of the Xinjiang Autonomous Region, the Tibet Autonomous Region, and human rights defenders across the country,” said the group in a news release. Credit: Australian Strategic Policy Institute via Storyful
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by darshan »

500,000 Tibetans forced into military-style labour camps in just 7 months of 2020, China calls it ‘vocational training’
https://www.opindia.com/2020/09/500000- ... 20-report/
Adrian Zenz, a German anthropologist and Senior Fellow in China Studies at the Jamestown Foundation, has stated in a report that China is pushing over half a million Tibetans into forced labour camps. It is somewhat on the similar lines of the program they have followed in the case of Uighurs in the western Xinjiang region but less coercive. The research has been corrobrated by Reuters.
....
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by nandakumar »

pankajs wrote:https://www.ft.com/content/e76a835b-27d ... 3e61754ec6
China is escalating its punishment diplomacy
Just two days before President Xi Jinping was scheduled to speak to Chancellor Angela Merkel last week, China blocked all pork imports from Germany.

The ostensible reason was the death of a single German wild boar from African swine fever, a disease already endemic in China. But some analysts jumped to a different conclusion. To them, this was the latest example of Beijing’s coercive commercial diplomacy — an evolving facet of Chinese statecraft that has come to dominate relations with several countries.

...
A secret threat is not much of a threat so, while denying any connection in public, Beijing will quietly make clear to the offending party that their actions, statements or policies are the reason for the punishment. State media often spell it out more clearly, as do China’s “wolf warrior” diplomats.

These warnings tend to be phrased like something out of The Godfather: “Nice car industry you have there Germany, pity if something were to happen to it if you don’t invite Huawei into your 5G networks.”

The extralegal, plausibly deniable measures are designed to avoid cases being brought at the World Trade Organization and to allow Beijing to dial the action up or down without a formal change in policy or law. Beijing has vastly expanded the practice, with more than half the identifiable examples since 2010 happening in the last three years. This is because the tactic works.

...
Today, China claims to be the biggest trade partner to 130 countries and regions and the demonstration effect — “killing the chicken to scare the monkeys” as it is known in China — is often enough to cow others into compliance.

...
This highlights the limits of such coercion. Wielding trade and market access as a political weapon can hurt your own companies and economy. It annihilates trust and pushes countries to diversify away from China to make them less vulnerable to coercion. This is already happening with South Korea, Japan and Taiwan. All now have formal policies to reduce their economic reliance on China. But the pushback has been piecemeal, with many countries preferring to capitulate to Beijing’s demands to resume trade and market access.

What is needed now is a multilateral mechanism for countries to study examples of this coercion. The next step is for the EU, US and other democracies to form a united front and formally agree they will not be played off against each other when individual countries are “punished” by Beijing.
The problem for Germany is that it has no cards to play on the trade front. The stuff that it exports outside of the meat products are things (precision machine tools) that China would anyway buy. Even here, China can easily circumvent export restriction informal or otherwise. Since Germany cannot deny any good to move to any other EU member country say, Italy nothing stops China from routing its requirements through Italy. In contrast for meat products China has other options. Adding to its discomfiture is a situation where Germany can't do without any of the stuff (mass produced consumer goods) that it currently imports from China.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Philip »

The PRC considers itself as global top dog," Middle Kingdom",etc.,etc. No other nation matters,subjugation or servility the only relationship allowed.Now naturally the PRC cannot bray from the Great Wall for all nations to submit to its diktat as it is not yet all powerful both economically and militarily- the US still super-power supremo,but the Hans have made huge inroads.

In this perpetual mental state of war ,the PRC is CONSTANTLY waging a covert war against India,etc., exploiting every weakness it can find in our eco and mil. armour. For decades weak US cyber- security saw the theft of billions upon billions of US nuclear warhead designs ( thanks to Clinton),JSF design,missiles,and both mil. and industrial tech. Every PRC national studying,doing business,tourists,etc. are PRC intel agents seizing whatever they can lay their hands on.Around 5 years ago,Germany estimated billions of $$$ had been stolen by the PRC nationals on its soil. One worker who spent barely a week in a German co. ,walked out with all its secrets.

Thus PRC nationals in India are spies in reality,plus our entire religious-social-eco-military system is under deep surveillance, where every fact possible is vacuumed out,collated and sent back to Beijing where intel. and cyberwarfare institutions analyse the vast data at hand and devise plans to wage covert war relentlessly below radar,until it feels it's neccessary for an overt stand to mesmerise smaller nations into kowtowing and retreating against its fuller forces,as it planned for Ladakh,with the troops on exercise dividing and making a beeline for PLA objectives on the ground.Fortunately the IA came to the nation ' s rescue by meeting sudden surprise attacks with immense courage and fortitude. The SSF's rude surprise saw it give us the advantage of swift momentum on the mil. chessboard ,checkmating it in game 1.
Many more games are intended.We can only stand firm resolutely and plan further rude surprises against the PRC across our vast border.
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by rpartha »

^^ agree... this is a long game... we have to be mentally prepared for long haul and also physically prepared to take key points either in Indian or Chinese territory...
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by sanjaykumar »

I ran into a good looking attractive Chinese female on the mall in Shimla. She was alone. She puzzled me at the time. But thanks to BRF, I have closure!
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