Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by nam »

Good. We should offer Taiwan some piece of land in India mainland or A&N, to move their tech industries, along with liberal visa policies.

Before that increase the trade with Taiwan and place import restrictions on Chinese imports.

The Chinese may capture Taiwan, however it also means all Taiwanese, SK, Japanese companies will shut shop in China. US will hit China with trade sanctions.

They can sell their wares to Pakistan and similar bankrupt countries.
Igorr
BRFite
Posts: 697
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 18:13
Contact:

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Igorr »

hnair wrote:
Igorr wrote: The US clearly would like to entrust India with the dirty work of containing China and keep the clean part for itself. The Americans have a lot of experience in this, from their delayed participation in two world wars, to the sacrifice of their allies in Southeast Asia during the war in Indo-China. They tried to play China against USSR too. The current attempts to fight with Russia by the hands of Ukrainians are from the same series. In parallel with the ostentatious hysteria of the last two presidents, they continue to actively trade with China, capitalizing on the low cost of labor in the 'communist country.' They still think the rest of the World is stupid.
Igorr, time and again, India has shown zero interest in any alliance with US. Even after all sorts of incentives including advanced weapon sales and NSG entry, India never went against China and even had good summits like Wuhan and Mahabalipuram. It was china who made what we are seeing India doing today possible. It is entirely China’s fault, not the US’ and most definitely not India’s. So please don’t absolve China of any wrong doing, by laying it on US alone. .
There is a certain chance that China will realize their mistake and understand that it is better if India will be the next leader of the democratic world, not the United States. Simply because of India's greater commitment to the Asian values and less prominent culture to be involved in internal issues of other states. Then if China's struggle with the US weakens the latter, India only wins.
Parasu
BRFite
Posts: 381
Joined: 04 Dec 2017 14:18

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Parasu »

==
Last edited by suryag on 16 Mar 2021 22:41, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: needless and baseless china bhajan deleted
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by nam »

How many of the border dispute resolution has China given away land?

If China was more "moral" than the West, then it should stop exporting it's goods to "immoral west" and sanction them.

China expects India NOT to do what it openly does. It has made money by aligning itself with the West. Now it is preaching that India should be "non-aligned". :roll:
AkshaySG
BRFite
Posts: 412
Joined: 30 Jul 2020 08:51

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by AkshaySG »

Parasu wrote:
kit wrote: ...
4. If you see from the Chinese viewpoint, the border disputes at Doka la and Galwan valley are not entirely their fault either. In fact, they are keen to resolve the border dispute. Wang Yi repeatedly tried to get an early-harvest deal before Xi Jinping's return trip in Mahabalipuram.

IMHO, the Chinese are no Pakis. Their historical animosity is with Japan. The Chinese support to Pakistan is a big big problem though.
The rest makes some sense but this is borderline incredulous .... You don't resolve border disputes by creating border disputes , We didn't have great relations but there was a very good reason as to why pre XI Jingping no bullets were fired on the LAC for decades . India was never openly hostile to China and rather had basically opened its economy to Chinese firms,produtcs,steel etc etc and yet in all their wisdom they decided that they wanted Doklam,Galwan and Arunachal and will probably decide on the whole of Sikkim and Ladakh next .So these issues and any upcoming in the future are 110 % their fault .

The whole of TAR and Xinjiang is barren unused land as big as mainland India and yet they still can't help themselves to take more of ours so please lose this line of thought where the honest CCP is only trying to resolve a dispute .

They're a upcoming Superpower trying to flex their muscles on all sides and impose their will on everyone ,The methods and details of such "empire building " may have differed from older British to American ,Soviet and now the Chinese but the fundamentals are the same
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by kit »

AkshaySG wrote:
Parasu wrote:
They're a upcoming Superpower trying to flex their muscles on all sides and impose their will on everyone ,The methods and details of such "empire building " may have differed from older British to American ,Soviet and now the Chinese but the fundamentals are the same
Well they can flex whatever they want., i think they really forgot what India can and WILL do. India is no small country to its east or west., it has their own potential and capability. I strongly feel they were real stupid in estimating Indian political will and even military capability.Or perhaps they thought there was a fleeting opportunity ? The damn chinks woke up a sleeping elephant that is now fully focussed on them. Forget all niceties.This will play out the way they did not want . Indian military will fully tie up their western front while unkle will take care of the "other" end. A nice Chinese snake all stringed up for roasting.
Any Chinese dreams of "taking" over Taiwan will also see India "liberating" Tibet.
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Vivek K »

Parasu wrote: China has resolved its border disputes with almost every other country in its North and the West. Its claims in the SCS are old. It flouts less rules than the West.
Really? Can you tell me what you're smoking so that I may check in to Utopia as well? China has conflicts with almost all of its neighbors. And it in illegal occupation of Tibet - you seem to totally ignore that. Look at its brutalization of Eastern Turkmenistan/Ujghuristan (Xinjiang). And you quietly gloss over its hostile attitude to India. I recommend you re-visit the history of 1962 - BRF may be able to point you to the details. BTW, in '62, the Indian Government was seeking brotherly relations with the Chinese.
3. It is also not true to say that the Chinese are incorrigibly hostile to India. In fact, after the Wuhan summit, the Chinese government took immediate steps to allow more market access to Indian products, including all cancer medicines, chilli meals, non-basmati rice etc.
4. If you see from the Chinese viewpoint, the border disputes at Doka la and Galwan valley are not entirely their fault either. In fact, they are keen to resolve the border dispute. Wang Yi repeatedly tried to get an early-harvest deal before Xi Jinping's return trip in Mahabalipuram.
These two take the cake and I rest your case! Doklam and Galwan are not their fault? What do you think India should have done? Followed JLN's advice to give up a few more inches on the map for peace? And try to think logically. Would Xi have stopped Doklam and Galwan (both unilateral attempts to change the status quo and the narrative) because we agreed on a harvest deal?

And then this gem:
IMHO, the Chinese are no Pakis. Their historical animosity is with Japan. The Chinese support to Pakistan is a big big problem though.
Boss - China is India's enemy number one. It props up Pakistan as a nuisance. India can finish Pakistan in one week. And China has focused India's attention towards it due to its poorly thought plans (Galwan et al).
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by NRao »

China has not resolved anything, anywhere. China has only postponed a dispute, to ensure her present - at any point in time - is protected.

China’s past border tactics, especially in Central Asia, offer India a clue
........

A pattern is being noticed after China’s last experiment of settling borders with Russia and three Central Asian states in the 1990s. Fearing its sensitive Xinjiang region becoming an object of external power play after the Soviet collapse, Beijing had displayed urgency in settling the border with Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. The Chinese border negotiation tactics with these countries blended “incentives with coercion”. Beijing settled for a third of territories it claimed from Kazakhstan. Yet, the Kazakhs had to admit they had gained. In addition to what it had lost, Kazakhstan had to denounce Uyghur separatism and curb anti-China activities. In a similar pattern, Kyrgyzstan had to cede 1,20,000 hectares in a dubious exchange for Chinese assistance. Tajikistan was made to surrender 1,100 square miles in 2010. Here, China claimed some 28,000 sq km, but settled for 3.5 percent of it. The Tajiks had to cede land and yet were made to feel the victor.

........
This is same ploy in Ladakh with India. And, actually anywhere else China has moved into - Africa too. Pakistan is an exception, being a province of China and probably will be used to repopulate China.

No "resolved". ALL those border disputes will be revived. In time. In Chinese time. That is what needs to be stopper. And, it will be.
yensoy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2494
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by yensoy »

Parasu wrote:
China has conflicts with almost all of its neighbors.
China has resolved its border disputes with Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Russia.
It has no border disputes with Myanmar or Mongolia (resolved 70 years ago). In 2008, it even demarcated its land borders with Vietnam.

Please check your facts.
Hogwash. If China's intentions were as pure as you make them out to be, kindly explain why they have yet to provide single map of their claims other than the so-called "1959 line" which was 3 points on a hanky sized map.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by NRao »

Parasu wrote:
NRao wrote:China has not resolved anything, anywhere. China has only postponed a dispute, to ensure her present - at any point in time - is protected.

[url=https://indianexpress.com/article/opini ... ey-ladakh-

No "resolved". All those border disputes will be revived. In time. In Chinese time. That is what needs to be stopper. And, it will be.
Ok.
Thanks. Appreciate your support.









Meanwhile, on more meaningful items:

Quad summit went very well, says President Biden

Sharp jump in US Navy transits to counter China under Trump
srikandan
BRFite
Posts: 590
Joined: 20 Nov 2020 02:51

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by srikandan »

parasu: China has resolved its border disputes with Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Russia.
It has no border disputes with Myanmar or Mongolia (resolved 70 years ago).
Just because China found it in its interests or found the resolution in its favor, it does not follow that the same applies to its border with India.
In the case of Russia, Russia basically handed over to china whatever they wanted. China did not give away anything. There is nothing of strategic value to the chinese in the border with the ex-soviet states, and even there China has its way and took what it wanted. Surely you are not suggesting that India resolve the matter similarly, by handing over whatever they ask.

China has a good motivation to get to the Indian Ocean and bypass the chokehold on their ocean routes by a whole host of countries, Vietnam, Indonesia, India, Australia, which China would like to treat as vassal states and not partners or allies. They have no such imperative w.r.t. land routes to eastern europe/Russia.
srikandan
BRFite
Posts: 590
Joined: 20 Nov 2020 02:51

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by srikandan »

parasu: All countries, from Vietnam to Russia and Myanmar to Mongolia were losers and therefore agreed to one-sided agreements handing their land to China. Really?!
Did I mention Vietnam or Myanmar in that list? I mentioned the three countries you invoked and pointed out that China's rationale for resolving those disputes do not apply in India's case.
AkshaySG
BRFite
Posts: 412
Joined: 30 Jul 2020 08:51

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by AkshaySG »

I knew we had US apologists and Soviet apologists but this is my first encounter with a China apologist here ....Learn something new everyday and whatnot

Chacha Nehru already doomed us once when he got shocked into silence by the Chinese turning his big Hindi-Cheeni Bhai Bhai plan on its head and attacking us , That sort of lapse in judgement can never happen again . If left to their devices they'll Salami slice all the way till Leh,Gangtok and Itanagar become theirs .

Xi Jingping is on a crusade and no talks are getting in the way of that , The only way his China takes a pause is when confronted with financial might or with military might and for us the latter seems more likely than the former . It is imperative that we keep evolving ,understanding and modernizing to meet this threat .
srikandan
BRFite
Posts: 590
Joined: 20 Nov 2020 02:51

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by srikandan »

parasu: That China has signed agreements resolving its border disputes with most neighbouring states is a fact. etc. etc.
Yes, you can quote all sort of facts, but what is being pointed out is that past behavior (that the "facts" point out according to you) has no bearing on chinese belligerence and intransigence at the present time, which they have amply demonstrated in the past year, which is also a fact. As with all things, more recent behavior carries more weight in the analysis than behavior at some point in the past.
Roop
BRFite
Posts: 670
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Roop »

Parasu wrote:If you see from the Chinese viewpoint, the border disputes at Doka la and Galwan valley are not entirely their fault either.
If you "see from the Chinese viewpoint", the whole of Ladakh belongs to China.

If you "see from the Chinese viewpoint", the whole of Arunachal Pradesh belongs to China.

If you "see from the Chinese viewpoint", the whole of South China Sea, East China Sea and Yellow Sea belong to China.

If you "see from the Chinese viewpoint", the Wuhan virus is the fault of USA ... or maybe Australia... or maybe India.
...the border disputes at Doka la and Galwan valley are not entirely their fault either.
Please enlighten us: what was India's fault in these two clashes? We refused to meekly surrender to them, we resisted and pushed them back, causing them an international humiliation and loss of face?
morem
BRFite
Posts: 227
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 15:52

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by morem »

The thread is being derailed. We now have to defend India's position in the Bharat-Rakshak forum (the irony of it). We are all for an open discussion here but some things are not acceptable.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by NRao »

IF, IF we did not have Nehru ..... India would have had a great armed force, with presence in Aksai Chin, roads along the border, not agreed to China in Tibet, ........ and, 1962 would not have happened. Purva paksha = understanding the enemy

The present is more clear.

* China attacked India
* India stands her ground on the border AND disengages with China on the economic front
* China wants to separate the border issues from other relations, India disagrees and stands her ground
* China backs down in Pongang Tso Lake area (rest TBD)
* India allows limited FDI from China


* Quad is more a reality today than yesterday

That is where we stand.

Future: ?. However, IMHO, China will be licked. No idea why China is a topic for discussion
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by NRao »

Quad owes its revival to President Xi’s 'fortress China' doctrine
As leaders of the four-nation Quadrilateral Security Dialogue, or Quad, hold their crucial meeting on Friday, the credit for creating the circumstances that led to the resurrection of the informal security dialogue in 2017 goes to China’s Xi Jinping. It was President Xi who turned Deng Xiaoping’s advice to “keep a low profile” on its head and ended up creating friction with the world in the name of ‘fortress China’.

While the signals on the Quad virtual summit today are positive from Washington, one needs to understand why and how the informal grouping was resuscitated nearly a decade after it landed up in the intensive care unit, in a coma. The trigger was the 2007 Bay of Bengal Malabar naval exercises, which included participation from India, the US, Japan, Australia and Singapore.

Contrary to suggestions by some western commentators, the Quad was revived after both the US and Australia realised that China was not only rising power but also becoming a competitor, five decades after US President Richard Nixon opened the door for Beijing.

The rise of expansionist China coincided with the ascendance of paramount leader Xi Jinping in 2007. He got down to work soon after, shredding the advice - “observe calmly, secure our position, cope with affairs calmly, hide our capacities and bide our time, be good at maintaining a low profile, and never claim leadership” - articulated by Deng back in the 1980s.

But neither the US nor the Australians gave up hopes of co-opting China .

Instead, when China served a demarche to all the participating navies under the Malabar banner to desist from its strategy to contain China, the then US under-secretary for political affairs Nicholas Burns wrote a letter to the then Indian foreign secretary that held one message: China should not be provoked. The Australians, under a self-avowed Sinophile, Kevin Rudd withdrew from Quad soon after. The Left-supported UPA I regime was shaken from within but put on a brave face. Only Japan and the city-state of Singapore, which had also participated in the Malabar exercises, were left standing. But this was not the end.

Just as Xi became the first secretary of the Chinese communist party and Vice President under the then communist party general secretary Hu Jintao, the crackdown in Lhasa was followed by a declaration of the nine-dash line in the South China Sea and renewed claims on the Senkaku Islands.

Under the Barack Obama administration, the Japanese were told to back down from a confrontation with the Chinese over Senkaku Islands in 2012, lest it harmed the reelection prospects of the Democrat government in power. When then Prime Minister Manmohan Singh went to Tokyo in 2013 after the Depsang incursions by the People’s Liberation Army, one of Japan’s senior-most ministers (still serving) told him in broken English that China has been “naughty” for the past 1,500 years and only close neighbours can understand each other’s concerns.

While there have been suggestions that India is the weakest link in the Quad chain due to its so-called non-alignment policy, it was the US that was dithering over China as it believed that Beijing could be co-opted within the western world through the World Trade Organisation.

In the meantime, with Xi becoming the paramount leader, the PLA virtually went on a rampage with transgressions on the Line of Actual Control in 2013, 2014, 2017 and 2020. Hong Kong was gobbled up and China next set its eyes on Taiwan, Senkaku Islands and the Sunni Uighur community in Xinjiang and Buddhists in Tibet who got the taste of the fire dragon. The US felt the pressure when the PLA Navy was on verge of breaching the first island chain with nuclear ballistic missile submarines and took on the military might of Washington by showcasing Ship killer and Guam killer missiles. And later, the right to navigation was threatened by Beijing in the South China Sea.

Today when the QUAD leaders meet virtually, they know the power of rising Communist China under President Xi. India, under Prime Minister Narendra Modi, is clear that Beijing’s reminders to Delhi about the non-alignment policy are an effort to ideologically cage India while it goes ahead to forge military alliances in South Asia specifically aimed at India. Australia, under Prime Minister Scott Morrison, has braved the wrath of China which has imposed restrictions on imports in some sectors. Eternal rival Japan under Prime Minister Yoshihide Suga is standing firm knowing that Beijing can exact military revenge based on past medieval Daimyo history. Now that President Joe Biden has also no illusions on China, the Quad meeting this evening will go beyond mere symbolism and take firm steps.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by NRao »

Understand China
Ananth Krishnan @ananthkrishnan wrote: Chinese Embassy in India, following other Chinese missions, says will “facilitate” travel for Indians, currently barred from traveling to China from India, IF they have taken Chinese vaccines - except this announcement is made in a country where there are no Chinese vaccines


Image
Such Fangs need to be removed.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by NRao »

A few days old, but informative:

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4826
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by KLNMurthy »

Parasu wrote:Understanding an adversary's viewpoint is important. If we knew that Pakistan would go back on Shimla agreements we would have acted differently.
If we knew Chinese viewpoint in 62 we would have prepared better.
So, yes we should know and understand what, why and how the Chinese think.
Alternatively, we can all say that we are awesome and we will beat the pulp out of the Chinese and be happy typing it.
So you are here to teach the ignorant jingos of BRF about the importance of understanding the enemy’s viewpoint.

Thank you for taking the time to make us wiser. Really. We all missed that point all these years and decades.

Any other gems of wisdom you would like to add to the pile?
sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3018
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by sudarshan »

KLNMurthy wrote: Any other gems of wisdom...?
Please digest the below, before asking for further gems :).
Parasu wrote:That China has signed agreements resolving its border disputes with most neighbouring states is a fact.
That these disputes will be revived later, or that China has no similar incentive to resolve it's dispute with India are opinions.

...
Understanding an adversary's viewpoint is important. If we knew that Pakistan would go back on Shimla agreements we would have acted differently.
If we knew Chinese viewpoint in 62 we would have prepared better.
I think it would qualify as "khud peir pe parasu maarna." (Hint: parasu=axe).
Igorr
BRFite
Posts: 697
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 18:13
Contact:

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Igorr »

kit wrote:
AkshaySG wrote:
They're a upcoming Superpower trying to flex their muscles on all sides and impose their will on everyone ,The methods and details of such "empire building " may have differed from older British to American ,Soviet and now the Chinese but the fundamentals are the same
Indian military will fully tie up their western front while unkle will take care of the "other" end. A nice Chinese snake all stringed up for roasting.
What's wrong with India sitting and just watching the two 'superpowers', the US and China, fight among themselves? Is it so important to you the US friendship then how do you explain the American participation, together with the PRC, in the naval military exercises in Karachi (Pakistan), which took place a month ago?
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by NRao »

^^^^^

Russian navy was there too. As a FYI. 45 nations participated
RKumar

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by RKumar »

Igorr wrote:What's wrong with India sitting and just watching the two 'superpowers', the US and China, fight among themselves? Is it so important to you the US friendship then how do you explain the American participation, together with the PRC, in the naval military exercises in Karachi (Pakistan), which took place a month ago?
We were sitting with popcorn and watching the power game being played by different parties. But it is the Chinese who came knocking at India's door multiple time.

Occupy Taiwan without a fight a war:
They wanted to show the world - China can beat India at will, any time and any place. It is their thinking to "Slap the monkey to scare the cat". So that no smaller country in the neighbourhood object to their behaviour, bully and occupation of other countries land or sea. They did it successfully in past and wanted to repeat it again. But this time Shri Modi lead GoI spoiled their party.

What is wrong with having a friendship with USA, EU, Russia, AUS, JP?
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by nam »

India sat on it's backside with "non-alignment" and "socialism" when US & Soviets were fighting. China took sides and made a 15T GDP, while India till few years back was the one with the largest poverty numbers.

When opportunity knocks again, may be it it time to stop being idiots.

If US offers to remove all sanctions and provide annual aid to Russia, in return for going against China, how many here think Russia will refuse it? :roll:
srikandan
BRFite
Posts: 590
Joined: 20 Nov 2020 02:51

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by srikandan »

The fallacy may be to assume that just because the US willingly allowed china to get rich off them, thanks to their own "global duopoly" policy, it will do the same with India, if India hooks up with the US -- would be very nice if it were true, but very damaging to India if it is not. US likely learns lessons too, like they have done with china, at great expense to themselves, such as not sharing IP or transfer of technology in advanced tech (that already applies to India), and not outsourcing manufacturing of high-end and strategically important goods.

So that leaves some space for India to get some of that manufacturing, but the game may have changed due to the way China is turning out to be: a belligerent, irresponsible, and violent power, willing to take the fight to weaker powers to create vassal states. They have tried with India and failed, and will likely try again once the re-consolidate their position along the LAC.

US would readily work with China, if the chinese and the US did some parasu-inspired-negotiations in the interest of peace love and harmony, and allowed the US to carve a space for itself in Asia. If only China would cooperate, and they still might do so when the covid dust settles, which is why it would be important for India to be strategically autonomous even if it has economic ties with US and China.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by kit »

Igorr wrote:
kit wrote: Indian military will fully tie up their western front while unkle will take care of the "other" end. A nice Chinese snake all stringed up for roasting.
What's wrong with India sitting and just watching the two 'superpowers', the US and China, fight among themselves? Is it so important to you the US friendship then how do you explain the American participation, together with the PRC, in the naval military exercises in Karachi (Pakistan), which took place a month ago?
Do you think China would sit by watching from the sidelines in the next India Pak war ?
A Nandy
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 502
Joined: 06 Sep 2009 23:39

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by A Nandy »

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202103/1218596.shtml
More Chinese cities offer maternity insurance to unmarried mothers amid demographic crisis
So they will not want to, but they may just have to, unless they have robots :P
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4826
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by KLNMurthy »

Parasu wrote:Understanding an adversary's viewpoint is important. If we knew that Pakistan would go back on Shimla agreements we would have acted differently.
If we knew Chinese viewpoint in 62 we would have prepared better.
So, yes we should know and understand what, why and how the Chinese think.
Alternatively, we can all say that we are awesome and we will beat the pulp out of the Chinese and be happy typing it.
So, in your mind, Indira Gandhi in 1972 would have made a perfect decision on Simla accord if only you were there to tell her that it was important to understand Pakistan.

Nehru would have made a correct decision (what would that have been?) on China, if only you were there to tell him that he has to think about how Chinese see the matter?

Do you really think Indira Gandhi, Nehru, Modi et al never ask themselves the question: "what is the viewpoint of China (or Pakistan) about this matter?' Or they don't have support staff, and entire ministries, just for looking into that question?

Even the Indian cricket team spends time and resources figuring out how the other team will approach the match, before going into the match.

BRF has threads going back years for studying China and Pakistan from their perspective. What exactly are you contributing here by writing what you wrote above?

(Reminds me of a Mathematics teacher I had in school, who used to say, "to prove the theorem, you have to argue logically." I used to wonder what was the point of just enunciating such an obvious and useless thing.)
darshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4018
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 04:16

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by darshan »

If this holds, then is this a lesson learned for Indian companies to not work on patents even if manufacturing ability isn't there?
US-China tech war: Huawei pushes licensing of 5G mobile technology amid struggles with Washington’s trade sanctions
https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/arti ... ology-amid
....
“We believe licensing should balance return on investment and cost pressures of implementation in the industry,” Ding said. “For every phone that complies with 5G standards, we will not seek a royalty rate higher than US$2.5 per unit.”
....
The company, which was put on Washington’s trade blacklist in 2019, has been the largest technical contributor to global 5G standards, according to Ding. He said the company’s revenue from patent licensing between 2019 and 2021 was estimated to be “about US$1.2 billion to US$1.3 billion”.
....
Igorr
BRFite
Posts: 697
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 18:13
Contact:

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by Igorr »

kit wrote:
Igorr wrote:What's wrong with India sitting and just watching the two 'superpowers', the US and China, fight among themselves? Is it so important to you the US friendship then how do you explain the American participation, together with the PRC, in the naval military exercises in Karachi (Pakistan), which took place a month ago?
Do you think China would sit by watching from the sidelines in the next India Pak war ?
If China perceives India as a military ally of the United States, then I think it will hardly sit and watch. Otherwise see the history of the war in Kargil.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by NRao »

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by kit »

China must be dealt with according to its actions not its talk. China is never to be trusted. Period. Time and again have they flouted any agreement that had been reached. Its just a waste of time trying to "engage" China. The QUAD must evolve into an Asian NATO that can *guarantee* security to its members and empower democracy in Asia. Without a doubt.
srikandan
BRFite
Posts: 590
Joined: 20 Nov 2020 02:51

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by srikandan »

kit: China must be dealt with according to its actions not its talk.
Holds true as much for the US/Russia/etc. as it does for China. More generally, all nations must be dealt with according to their actions -- ignore all the talking. Everybody lies.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by NRao »

U.S. Secretaries of State, Defense Push Back Against China in Tokyo Trip

Mar 16, 2021
........

“China uses coercion and aggression to systematically erode autonomy in Hong Kong, undercut democracy in Taiwan, abuse human rights in Xinjiang and Tibet, and assert maritime claims in the South China Sea that violate international law,” Mr. Blinken said at a news conference. “We will push back if necessary on China’s coercions or aggressions.”

..........
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by nam »

Parasu wrote:
China made a 15T GDP on the back of its economic policies. Not because it took sides. Kissinger visited China in 1971. Deng started his Open Door policy in 1978. Investments started flowing into China after 1978.
Perhaps its more important not to blindly copy what others did. Indian socialist policies and five year plans attempted to copy the Soviet Union. Perhaps its more important to think, analyse and decide for ourselves rather than try to copy Soviet Union/China/US and everyone else.
Do you think China would have received investment from US, Japan, SK & Taiwan if it was still an enemy of the US? Are you saying US companies are so dumb that they would have still invested in to China, with a serious risk of loosing all the investment?

Chinese got economic investment in return for switching side. If it it was still aligned with the Soviets, China would have been a larger North Korea today.

No investment policies work, if there is no political support. Companies have been screaming "alternate supply chain" as soon as Trump unleashed trade war with China.

Wonder why companies are moving to Vietnam, when China is supposed to be at the pinnacle of it's economic reforms :roll:
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by nam »

Even a commie state like Vietnam, understand the value to allying with US for economic reasons, but here in India, we have delusions of moral grand standing!

People here argue that an open country like India will not get investments, when a commie state Vietnam heavily gained out of US-China fight.
suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4041
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by suryag »

Thread cleaned up, Parasu ji sent on a vacation
yensoy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2494
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Post by yensoy »

Kissinger is the modern day Shakuni. Hell bent on advancing his agenda by firing from others' shoulders, especially those who rely on him and trust him. He will not hesitate to stoop to any level to achieve his unethical goals, and use any means possible fair or otherwise (usually the latter).
Locked