Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

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pankajs
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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2018 22:38

http://www.ejinsight.com/20170105-why-t ... per-tiger/
Why the Chinese army is a paper tiger
Now let’s go back to the Chinese army.

The common observation about the sweeping graft-busting drive by Communist Party chief and top commander Xi Jinping (習近平) is that, amid the factional schisms, he aims to ease out his political foes in the military. But that is only part of the picture.

One fact must not be overlooked: it’s an open secret that one can buy an official post in the PLA, which, more often than not, is open for “bidding”.

When conducting field studies in China back in the late 1990s, I heard from retired soldiers that PLA posts were always up for grabs to the highest bidders.

Later I even obtained a detailed “price list” for specific jobs and ranks in the army, ranging from a company commander to an infantry division chief.

Why is a PLA post so much sought after?

Unlike its US counterpart, the PLA, the world’s largest armed force in terms of headcount, is but a paper tiger and has never conducted one single genuine military operation since the mid-1980s.

Working for the PLA in peacetime means riding a big gravy train with zero war risk.

It is especially so when Beijing’s military funding is constantly on the rise – US$215 billion in 2015, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

You don’t have to die for your country; quite the opposite, you can milk the taxpayers’ money intended to keep the country safe.

In a Sino-Russian joint military drill, it was said that Chinese paratroopers were quite afraid of parachuting into a mock battlefield from a high altitude.

If there is a real war, don’t expect these soldiers to fight and win.

Perhaps Xi is fully aware of this, which is why he is doing some “cleaning” as a deterrent.

The PLA’s current situation is reminiscent of the Beiyang Fleet (北洋艦隊) during the late Qing dynasty, which suffered a crushing defeat in the First Sino-Japanese War in 1894.

Much of the funding for ammunition, maintenance and training was carved up and channeled into the pockets of commanders and captains.

It was said that when the fleet’s founder, viceroy Li Hongzhang (李鴻章), inspected one of the vessels, he found many of the cannonballs were actually stones.

More than 100 years later, the PLA’s plight is almost on a par with Beiyang’s. At least 56 generals have been convicted of embezzlement and other forms of corruption since 2012, and many of them were in charge of logistics and munitions procurement.

A deputy naval commander was found to have taken bribes amounting to 160 million yuan (US$23 million), but he pales in comparison with Gu Junshan (谷俊山), PLA’s most senior lieutenant general in charge of logistics, who is said to have amassed some 20 billion yuan including 400 properties across China.

And, the king of venality must be Xu Caihou (徐才厚), vice-chairman of the Central Military Commission.

Investigators found heaps of cash, in US dollars, euros and renminbi, in the basement of his Beijing villa weighing over a ton. They had to use more than a dozen heavy trucks to transport the jewelry, jade and antiques found in Xu’s home.

Beijing has been under mounting international pressure to make its military spending more transparent.

But the irony is that Beijing’s inaction can somehow be justified: it doesn’t know how the money is being spent in the nation’s gigantic yet secretive military-industrial complex, where interest groups on all levels are itching to get a share of the pie.

Beijing’s internal audit of military spending is cosmetic, and there’s practically no third-party examiner to keep an eye on all the accounts.

In contrast, it has been a long established practice in Washington to have private accounting firms scrutinize Pentagon.

One “tired and true” excuse for not doing so and making public details of income and expenditure is military sensitivity or national security.

Hundreds of billions of taxpayers’ money wouldn’t have been so easily flown into the pockets of Gu, Xu and other greedy generals and marshals had there been an independent auditor in the first place.

This article appeared in the Hong Kong Economic Journal Monthly.
Translation by Frank Chen with additional reporting

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby yensoy » 27 Jun 2018 22:49

What's the deal with the 2 + 1 dialog idea?

We need to start including the Chinese in our regular talks with our neighbours?

Later will uncle Xi also be a party to discussions between me and my wife? Doesn't he have a country to run?

And Nepalis want to use China as their advocate or intermediary when talking to us? Why do they think we will be interested in having a chaperone at our dinner date?

If the Nepalese must have someone by their side, let's propose Japan as the neutral party. Japanese are favourably disposed towards Nepal and in fact do give considerable aid. Let's see how quickly the 2+1 idea dissipates when we propose this.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Rudradev » 28 Jun 2018 03:42

We should welcome it, and propose to hold the first 2 + 1 session in Taipei.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Shanmukh » 28 Jun 2018 07:11

Rudradev wrote:We should welcome it, and propose to hold the first 2 + 1 session in Taipei.


Rudradev-acharya,
The 2+1 should be India, Japan & Taiwan. We should forget all about the US. Any balancing of China can be done only by India working with other Asian states like Japan, Taiwan & Vietnam. Maybe, just maybe, Indonesia. I don't see anyone else capable of even standing up to some extent against the Chinese.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chola » 28 Jun 2018 07:39

pankajs wrote:http://www.ejinsight.com/20170105-why-the-chinese-army-is-a-paper-tiger/
Why the Chinese army is a paper tiger
Now let’s go back to the Chinese army.

The common observation about the sweeping graft-busting drive by Communist Party chief and top commander Xi Jinping (習近平) is that, amid the factional schisms, he aims to ease out his political foes in the military. But that is only part of the picture.

One fact must not be overlooked: it’s an open secret that one can buy an official post in the PLA, which, more often than not, is open for “bidding”.

When conducting field studies in China back in the late 1990s, I heard from retired soldiers that PLA posts were always up for grabs to the highest bidders.

Later I even obtained a detailed “price list” for specific jobs and ranks in the army, ranging from a company commander to an infantry division chief.

Why is a PLA post so much sought after?

Unlike its US counterpart, the PLA, the world’s largest armed force in terms of headcount, is but a paper tiger and has never conducted one single genuine military operation since the mid-1980s.

Working for the PLA in peacetime means riding a big gravy train with zero war risk.

It is especially so when Beijing’s military funding is constantly on the rise – US$215 billion in 2015, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

You don’t have to die for your country; quite the opposite, you can milk the taxpayers’ money intended to keep the country safe.

In a Sino-Russian joint military drill, it was said that Chinese paratroopers were quite afraid of parachuting into a mock battlefield from a high altitude.

If there is a real war, don’t expect these soldiers to fight and win.

Perhaps Xi is fully aware of this, which is why he is doing some “cleaning” as a deterrent.

The PLA’s current situation is reminiscent of the Beiyang Fleet (北洋艦隊) during the late Qing dynasty, which suffered a crushing defeat in the First Sino-Japanese War in 1894.

Much of the funding for ammunition, maintenance and training was carved up and channeled into the pockets of commanders and captains.

It was said that when the fleet’s founder, viceroy Li Hongzhang (李鴻章), inspected one of the vessels, he found many of the cannonballs were actually stones.

More than 100 years later, the PLA’s plight is almost on a par with Beiyang’s. At least 56 generals have been convicted of embezzlement and other forms of corruption since 2012, and many of them were in charge of logistics and munitions procurement.

A deputy naval commander was found to have taken bribes amounting to 160 million yuan (US$23 million), but he pales in comparison with Gu Junshan (谷俊山), PLA’s most senior lieutenant general in charge of logistics, who is said to have amassed some 20 billion yuan including 400 properties across China.

And, the king of venality must be Xu Caihou (徐才厚), vice-chairman of the Central Military Commission.

Investigators found heaps of cash, in US dollars, euros and renminbi, in the basement of his Beijing villa weighing over a ton. They had to use more than a dozen heavy trucks to transport the jewelry, jade and antiques found in Xu’s home.

Beijing has been under mounting international pressure to make its military spending more transparent.

But the irony is that Beijing’s inaction can somehow be justified: it doesn’t know how the money is being spent in the nation’s gigantic yet secretive military-industrial complex, where interest groups on all levels are itching to get a share of the pie.

Beijing’s internal audit of military spending is cosmetic, and there’s practically no third-party examiner to keep an eye on all the accounts.

In contrast, it has been a long established practice in Washington to have private accounting firms scrutinize Pentagon.

One “tired and true” excuse for not doing so and making public details of income and expenditure is military sensitivity or national security.

Hundreds of billions of taxpayers’ money wouldn’t have been so easily flown into the pockets of Gu, Xu and other greedy generals and marshals had there been an independent auditor in the first place.

This article appeared in the Hong Kong Economic Journal Monthly.
Translation by Frank Chen with additional reporting



SYRE culture. Can’t fight. Will not fight.

War is the exception not the norm between great powers. Until someone goes to battle with them, the fact they can’t fight is meaningless.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 28 Jun 2018 09:13

Rudradev wrote:We should welcome it, and propose to hold the first 2 + 1 session in Taipei.

That's why China has restricted this format of dialogue to 'South Asia' alone !!

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 28 Jun 2018 09:15

Tariffs on Indian goods to be lowered - PTI
This is a blanket announcement grouping five countries. Have to see how it impacts India.
China will reduce or cut to zero tariffs on a total of 8,549 types of goods originating in India and four other Asian countries from July 1, according to the Ministry of Finance. The adjustment, covering products made in India, Bangladesh, Laos, South Korea and Sri Lanka, was part of the tariff concession arrangement reached under the Asia-Pacific Trade Agreement, it said.

The goods include chemicals, agricultural and medical products, clothing, steel and aluminium products. The items from the five Asian countries will have a new tariff rate effective on Sunday.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Pulikeshi » 28 Jun 2018 09:56

SSridhar wrote:
Rudradev wrote:We should welcome it, and propose to hold the first 2 + 1 session in Taipei.

That's why China has restricted this format of dialogue to 'South Asia' alone !!


India should then say, it is acceptable if and only if, China will accept a 2 + 1 formula in the Indo-Pacific :P :twisted:

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Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Peregrine » 28 Jun 2018 20:27

Trump's Trade War Pushes China Closer to Old Foe India

- China has lowered import barriers on some Indian goods
- Questions remain over key flashpoints, such as border disputes

President Donald Trump’s moves to protect U.S. trade interests are creating unusual bedfellows in Asia.

India and China, longstanding economic and strategic rivals, are seeing a thaw in relations less than a year after the most serious border flare-up since a war in 1962 threatened ties between the two Asian giants.

Since May, China has made it easier for India to export non-Basmati rice, removed import duties on anti-cancer drugs and agreed to share data that predicts river flows between the two countries during the flood season. Chinese President Xi Jinping and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi have met twice since April, pledging to strengthen bilateral ties.

Driving the marriage of convenience is Trump’s unpredictable policy-making. The U.S. has ratcheted up global trade tensions with tariff threats against China, Canada, Mexico and the European Union, prompting several to retaliate. Last week India also joined the fray, raising duties on a slew of U.S. imports.

“China understands that this trade war situation isn’t going to end in a few days or even months,” said Bipul Chatterjee, executive director of an India-based trade think tank. “They wouldn’t want to open more than one battle front. The focus is now on confronting the U.S.”

It’s not just on trade that China is pushing back. On Wednesday, President Xi told U.S. Defense Secretary James Mattis he wouldn’t give up “one inch of territory” that China considered its own.

‘Trump Factor’

The question many observers are asking is whether China’s cozier relationship with India can endure. The world’s two most-populous nations have had a tense history, marked by border disputes and China’s growing economic influence in South Asia.

“I don’t think the fundamentals of the relationship are changing in any way, but the Trump factor is pushing them to coordinate their priorities more closely,” said Harsh Pant, an international relations professor at King’s College London.

Here’s a look at some of the flashpoints that hinder stronger ties:

Trade Gap

India’s two-way trade with China touched nearly $90 billion last year, making it the largest commercial partner of the South Asian economy. The bilateral trade gap was $63 billion -- India’s largest -- mainly due to imports of Chinese-made heavy machinery, telecom equipment and home appliances, according to commerce ministry data.

Read about how Chinese goods have swamped Indian markets

The deficit widened from $36 billion in the financial year ended March 2014, driving up the current-account gap and adding to the economy’s vulnerability.

Widening Gap

India's exports to China haven't kept pace with surging imports

Modi’s flagship ‘Make in India’ initiative to foster local manufacturing struggles in the face of low-priced imports from China, while at the same time India’s cost-competitive software services companies battle to get access to the Chinese market.

“It is a very hard nut to crack,” said Srikanth Kondapalli, a professor at the Centre for East Asian Studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, referring to the China market. Still, the Chinese have managed to dominate India’s power equipment market and push telecom products, he said.

To curb the shortfall -- and counter to China’s easing of trade barriers -- India boosted tariffs on electronic goods, such as mobile phones, TVs and microwave ovens last year.

Border Spat

Closer trade ties seem incongruous less than a year after troops from the two nuclear-armed nations faced off in a dispute in the remote Doklam Plateau between India, Bhutan and Tibet, triggered by China’s attempt to build a road there.

Image

Tension eased after the two countries agreed to an “expeditious disengagement” of troops from the area in late August, with Modi and Xi later pledging to strengthen communication between their respective armies at the informal summit this April.

Sino-Indian relations have long been marred by disputes over large tracts of land along the border. India’s hosting of the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government-in-exile in the mountain town of Dharamsala in northern India is also a source of anger in Beijing.

Belt and Road

Another sore point in the bilateral relationship has been China’s ambitious global infrastructure plans, which include projects in New Delhi’s Indian Ocean backyard that domestic analysts worry have a strategic dimension.

Under the so-called Belt and Road Initiative, China has financed ports and roads from Myanmar to Sri Lanka and Pakistan. India is one of the only holdouts globally.

At a recent foreign ministers meeting of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, a China-led group, India was the only member country not to endorse China’s Belt and Road plans.

Drawing the most alarm for India is the $60 billion China Pakistan Economic Corridor, which runs through Pakistan-administered land in the disputed border region of Kashmir. New Delhi claims the region as its own territory.

Cheers Image

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Prem » 29 Jun 2018 03:16

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/artic ... thers-pace
Chinese General to Visit India as Re-Set in Ties Gathers Pace

BEIJING (REUTERS) - A senior Chinese general will soon visit India, China's Defence Ministry said on Thursday, as the neighbors step up efforts to reset ties following an ice-breaking summit between their leaders.Chinese President Xi Jinping and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi agreed in April to open a new chapter in ties, just months after a dispute over a stretch of their high-altitude Himalayan border rekindled fears of war.Speaking at a monthly news briefing, Chinese Defence Ministry Spokesman Wu Qian said that Major General Liu Xiaowu, deputy commander of China's western military region, would soon go to India, as well as Pakistan, though he did not give dates.India's old enemy Pakistan and China have close military relations, and call each other "all weather friends".Liu would discuss border issues and cooperation as well as military exchanges while he was in these two countries, Wu said.Hundreds of troops from both sides were deployed in 2017 on the Doklam plateau, near the borders of India, its ally Bhutan, and China after India objected to Chinese construction of a road in the Himalayan area in their most serious standoff in years.There is still deep mistrust between the neighbors over their festering border dispute, which triggered a brief war in 1962.However, in another sign China and India are trying to be friendlier to each other, Wu said that on June 21 Chinese and Indian border forces practiced Yoga together, to coincide with International Yoga Day.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chetak » 29 Jun 2018 15:31

The australians have recalibrated their chinese ties and preparing to pass something like the the Indian FCRA legislation.

Lots of itching in the han langote.

Huge diplomatic setback and repercussions for the han investments and han influence in australia, dashing efforts, carefully nurtured over the years in a bid to surreptitiously break into a white skin country and take over err suborn many of its democratic institutions.

Australia to pass foreign interference laws amid rising China tensions



Australia to pass foreign interference laws amid rising China tensions

Reuters Staff

* Australia seeks to prevent foreign meddling

* Lobbyists required to register as foreign agents

* New legislation has soured Australia-China ties

* China’s Huawei says security concerns “just plain wrong” (Updates to show legislation now expected to pass on Thursday)

By Colin Packham and Tom Westbrook

SYDNEY, June 27 (Reuters) - Australia is expected to pass legislation on Thursday aimed at preventing interference by foreign governments, a move likely to further stoke tensions with major trading partner China.

Mirroring similar rules in the United States, Australia will require lobbyists for foreign countries to register, and makes them liable for criminal prosecution if they are deemed to be meddling in domestic affairs.

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull last year referred to “disturbing reports about Chinese influence” as justification for the measures.

China has denied allegations of meddling in Australian affairs, but concern over Chinese political donations and relationships between lawmakers and Chinese businesses has intensified in Australia.

“It will come down to whether China is cited when the legislation passes. China will not want to again be singled out,” said James Laurenceson, deputy director of the Australia-China Relations Institute at the University of Technology Sydney.

The legislative package before the Senate includes the new Foreign Influence Transparency Scheme Bill, which requires the registration of lobbyists working for foreign governments.

Another amended law expands potential crimes to include meddling by these agents.

Having cleared the lower house, the package is expected to pass in the Senate where the main opposition Labor Party has said it will support it. The Senate had been expected to give its approval on Wednesday, but time was taken over other items, and the legislation was held over until Thursday.

Another planned bill, banning foreign political donations, has yet to be introduced in the lower house.

Speaking in Beijing, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Lu Kang said law-making was a country’s internal affair and he declined to comment, though he did appeal for all countries to “abandon Cold War thinking”.

“We further want all other countries in the world to follow the principle of not interfering in other countries’ internal affairs,” Lu told a daily news briefing.

“So we hope that all countries can abandon Cold War thinking and on a foundation of mutual respect and equal treatment pursue better communications and cooperation. We believe this better fits with the interests of all countries’ peoples.”

The widening diplomatic rift between Australia and China has affected some of their $125 billion in two-way trade as Australian wine exporters such as Treasury Wine Estates faced delays getting some products through Chinese customs.

Despite Australian efforts to ease the curbs, wine is only trickling into the industry’s most lucrative market, expected to be worth more than A$1 billion this year.

Australian cattle graziers and citrus growers also fear they are being sidelined by China as a result of the row.

HUAWEI HANG UP

Against this backdrop of cooling relations, Chinese telecommunications firm Huawei Technologies Co Ltd has emerged as a lightning rod for Australian security fears.

The world’s largest maker of telecommunications network equipment and the No. 3 smartphone supplier, Huawei has already been virtually shut out of the giant U.S. market because of national security concerns.

It is lobbying to avoid a similar fate in Australia, sponsoring more overseas travel for politicians than any other company in recent years, and arranging for John Lord, chairman of its Australian unit, to speak in Canberra on Wednesday.

Lord, a former rear admiral in Australia’s navy, said security concerns based on Huawei’s links to China were “uninformed or just plain wrong”.

“In our three decades as a company no evidence of any sort has been provided to justify these concerns by anyone ever,” Lord told the National Press Club of Australia, adding that Britain and New Zealand had permitted 5G investments by Huawei.

“Nothing sinister has been found. No wrongdoing, no criminal action, no intent, no back door, no planted vulnerability and no magical kill switch,” he said.

Huawei provides 4G equipment to three of the country’s four major carriers, Vodafone, SingTel’s Optus and TPG Telecom Ltd, but was blocked in 2012 from providing broadband equipment.

Turnbull said the government was still mulling Huawei’s role in the country’s nascent 5G network.

“We’ll continue to consider that and get the best advice on that from our national security agencies,” he told reporters in Canberra. ($1 = 1.3535 Australian dollars) (Reporting by Colin Packham and Tom Westbrook in SYDNEY Additional reporting by Christian Shepherd in BEIJING Editing by Darren Schuettler)


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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chetak » 29 Jun 2018 16:26

Australia works on security deal with Vanuatu in bid to counter China's influence



Australia works on security deal with Vanuatu in bid to counter China's influence



PUBLISHED JUN 25, 2018,

SYDNEY (REUTERS) - Australia promised on Monday (June 25) to bolster the cyber security capability of Vanuatu as it agreed to begin negotiating a security treaty with its Pacific neighbour, ramping up diplomacy in the region to combat China's rising influence.

The tension has fuelled a chill in relations between the two trading partners, which hit a low after Australia accused China late last year of meddling in domestic affairs and announced a crackdown on foreign interference in response.

In April, Australia had expressed "great concern" at reports, later denied by both sides, that Vanuatu and China were in talks to establish a Chinese military presence in the Pacific nation.


During a visit to Canberra by Vanuatu Prime Minister Charlot Salwai, Australia offered up to A$19.5 million (S$19.7 million) in education aid and said it would spend A$400,000 to help develop Vanuatu's cyber policy and security.

Maritime surveillance, police and defence cooperation would underpin the security treaty, Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said in a statement, but gave no date to begin talks.

Reuters could not immediately reach Salwai's office for comment.

The visit comes amid an Australian drive to boost assistance to the Pacific and follows a similar visit to Canberra by the Solomon Islands prime minister, who secured its assistance to build an undersea internet link for his country.

"It's less about the goodies being announced and more about the visits actually taking place and the symbolism of that,"said Jonathan Pryke, a Pacific Islands foreign policy expert with the Lowy Institute, a think-tank based in Sydney.

"The message it's sending is that we respect you, take you seriously as a peer, rather than the more traditional donor-recipient relationship."

China has likewise become increasingly active in the South Pacific, with infrastructure projects, aid and funding for small, developing island nations, besides rolling out the red carpet for leaders' visits.

China's commitment of US$1.8 billion(S$2.4 billion) to the region by June 2016 is dwarfed by Australia's US$7.7 billion contribution, Lowy Institute research shows, but has raised Australia's hackles at the prospect of eroding its long-time influence.

Cyber security has become a flashpoint, with Australia's security agencies worried that hardware installed by China's Huawei Technologies Co Ltd could pose a data security risk. Australia's Internet promise to the Solomons directly blocked a similar offer from Huawei.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 30 Jun 2018 06:36

Prem wrote:https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2018-06-28/chinese-general-to-visit-india-as-re-set-in-ties-gathers-pace
Chinese General to Visit India as Re-Set in Ties Gathers Pace
. . . Major General Liu Xiaowu, deputy commander of China's western military region, would soon go to India, as well as Pakistan . . ..

We have to be careful here. China has been trying to insert itself as an arbiter. After the SCO & Wuhan meets, there is a flurry of statements from the Chinese side suggesting that. The Pakistan visit is significant because it is not to balance a visit to India with a visit to Pakistan. Chinese Generals have come here before without such a balancing act. There is something afoot and suspicious here.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby TKiran » 30 Jun 2018 18:09

It looks like the Chinese have profiled NaMo and his style of diplomacy.

NaMo likes personal diplomacy, one on one, threesome foursome etc., So they are coming up with fancy ideas to boost the ego of NaMo. Now that foursome with US has failed because US follows standard/professional diplomacy, where the agenda is fixed and steering the meetings to the outcomes most desirable to them.

China diplomacy is cunning., They would go to lengths to massage the ego of their opponents, and get the results. They know it's very easy to get the outcomes from delusional leaders.

While I don't have any problems with the personal diplomacy, often times, the person gets so much distracted when they get their ego massaged, that they usually end up giving too much for very less or nothing at all.

If my guess is correct, NaMo would fall for Chinese ego boosting, just like Nehru.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby pankajs » 30 Jun 2018 19:07

No doubt the Chinese diplomacy is cunning and they will try to get results any which way they think will work with Modi. It need not be stated but full marks to them.

But if reports in the Indian media are to be believed, Modi is preparing to sign CAATSA / COMCASA or whatever it is called. This would be the 2nd out of the three foundational agreement with US after the logistics one.

China did not wan't India to sign even one and Modi is already gone past one and on the verge of 2nd and that would make it 2/3 done under Modi. Too early to say but it seems like the ego boosting strategy that China has adopted with Modi doesn't seem to be working. Remember this comes after Wuhan where Xi had ample opportunity to do maska to Modi.

Of course this is just my opinion and folks are free to draw their own conclusions. After all there is not tax/penalty for holding opinions even if it is not backed by data.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby dinesha » 02 Jul 2018 15:24

Why a Nuclear-Armed Vietnam Is in India’s Interest
https://www.thinkpragati.com/think/4943 ... -interest/

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Trikaal » 02 Jul 2018 15:36

dinesha wrote:Why a Nuclear-Armed Vietnam Is in India’s Interest
https://www.thinkpragati.com/think/4943 ... -interest/

Ahh, the age old argument of nuclearizing Vietnam propagated by arm-chair strategists.
Has Vietnam asked for nukes? NO
Is Vietnam willing to pay for them? NO
Is Vietnam willing to enter a strategic partnership with India like Pakistan has with China? NO
Then why should we be the Abdullah in a begaani wedding?
Let Vietnam offer a naval base to India to show the sincerity of its intentions and then we could consider committing a global crime(it's viewed as a crime by the powers of the world)
If a naval base is too much, let them atleast tear up their membership of CTBT and NPT. They are members of non proliferation treaty for heaven's sake!

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby pankajs » 02 Jul 2018 15:42

I have an even basic question. What will nuclear-arming Vietnam achieve i.e. for India? Think carefully and you will realize not much. It will make Vietnam more resistant to pressures from China but not much else.

If we want to do unto China via Vietnam what it has done to India via Bakistan then Vietnam has to become like Bakistan. What are the chances? ZERO.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Trikaal » 02 Jul 2018 15:49

^Exactly. You need a special breed of people whose entire purpose in life is the destruction of another society to achieve that purpose. The conviction has to be stronger than even feeding your own people. Vietnamese don't want to fight China, they just want to defend themselves. Unless we can somehow supplant that ideology along with the nukes, it is useless.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby pankajs » 02 Jul 2018 17:59

It just now came to me that folks think of India vs China as a game of chess. When China makes a move we make a counter to restore balance/symmetry.

When India and China are face to face that kind of logic works but when one involves a "thinking" country/entity as opposed to the "dumb" pieces on a chess board that logic starts to break down. Dumb pieces don't have a will of their own where as thinking entities have a will and a desire of their own and that renders the chess like move/counter move thinking useless in such situations.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Shanmukh » 06 Jul 2018 03:16

Air India succumbs to Chinese threat, & begins to refer to Taiwan as `Chinese Taipei'.

https://www.firstpost.com/india/air-ind ... 74441.html

According to Brahma Chellaney, the Air India is just obeying the MEA instructions to refer to Taiwan as `Chinese Taipei'.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 06 Jul 2018 04:57

The Wuhan effect . . .
India justifies national carrier renaming Taiwan as Chinese Taipei on its website - ToI
The foreign ministry justified its advice to Air India to change the name of Taiwan as being consistent with international norms and Indian policy. Since Wednesday, Air India has started listing Taiwan as 'Taipei, Taoyuan International Airport, TPE, Chinese Taipei' on its website.

Taiwanese media slammed India’s decision, describing it as "kowtowing" to Beijing. The only airlines which have not followed China’s diktat are American Airlines, Delta, United Airlines, Asiana Airlines, Korean Air, and Vietnam Airlines.

Questioned, MEA spokesperson Raveesh Kumar said, "The decision of Air India is consistent with international norms and our own position on Taiwan since 1949". However, the Modi government has in the past said it would support Beijing’s "One China" policy only when China supports a "One India" policy. Wednesday’s decision comes as the government has gone the extra mile to make nice with China in the past few months, raising questions about whether India had compromised its traditional positions.

Taiwan’s Economic and Cultural Centre in India (TECC) responded with a sharply worded statement registering its "disappointment" and said it "regrets that this move taken by Air India, a state-owned airline, can be seen as a gesture of succumbing to the unreasonable and absurd pressure from China." TECC representative, Chung Kwang Tien, asked Air India to stand up against the unreasonable demand.

Taiwan has even sent a formal letter of protest to MEA and in its statement said, it "hopes the Indian government can provide firm support to its public services and private businesses to defend themselves from a foreign country’s bully actions." "It is afraid that if such politically motivated bully actions are let prevail, people’s freedom in doing business and in their expression of opinion may be undermined; therefore, free and democratic nations should work together to protect their common values and interests," Tien said in his statement.

On April 25, the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) asked 34 airlines to describe Taiwan as part of China on their websites. Air India operates a code-share flight to Taiwan with Air China. The CAAC said the airlines must comply with their demand before June 24, or face punitive action from the "relevant cyber-security authorities."

The US had rubbished China’s instructions, with the White House saying "this is Orwellian nonsense and part of a growing trend by the Chinese Communist Party to impose its political views on American citizens and private companies." American airlines continue to call it Taiwan.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Shanmukh » 06 Jul 2018 06:07

@SSridhar,
Are we back to the One China policy again? After refusing to recognise it for years?

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Trikaal » 06 Jul 2018 08:07

This is the Wuhan effect.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby pankajs » 06 Jul 2018 08:25

Wuhan effect has enveloped the whole world! yaaaaahhhhooo

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 631815002/
Airlines caving to China's demands despite White House protest [22 May 2018]

Having having mentally deconstructed Modi as suggested by one member here and by messaging his ego they have subdued the whole world. Ek teer many many nishana.

Masterstroke!! One must congratulate China/Xi.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby RKumar » 06 Jul 2018 12:13

Let’s not forget, it is Taiwan who
- supports China on AP
- support Pak and China on JK

Although, having said that I don’t support GoI move. It is again a self goal by India unless China now votes for in favor of India at NSG. But even than we paid too heavy price, not that I have personal love for Taiwan.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby dinesha » 06 Jul 2018 12:31


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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 06 Jul 2018 14:47

Indian scientist in race to head Chinese institute - IANS
In a first, India-born geophysicist Paramesh Banerjee is among the four shortlisted to head the Institute of Geophysics, a top scientific organisation of China's Earthquake Administration (CEA). The other three candidates are Chinese.


Indian professor Dipak Jain appointed new head of top Chinese business institute - PTI
Dipak Jain, a prominent Indian professor in the US, has been appointed as the new head of a top global business school in China, according to a media report.

Jain, 61, will take over as the European president of the Shanghai-based China Europe International Business School (CEIBS), replacing Pedro Nueno who held the position for 28 years.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 06 Jul 2018 14:50

PM Modi holds talks with Bhutanese counterpart, to discuss Doklam tri-junction - PTI
Talks between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his Bhutanese counterpart Tshering Tobgay are underway, during which defence, security and strategic cooperation between the two neighbouring countries are expected to be discussed.

Tobgay, who arrived here on a three-day visit yesterday, met Modi at the Hyderabad House.

"Exemplary relationship worth celebrating! PM @narendramodi welcomes Prime Minister of #Bhutan @tsheringtobgay to India during the Golden Jubilee Year of our relationship, which is based on shared perceptions, utmost trust, goodwill and understanding," Ministry of External Affairs Spokesperson Raveesh Kumar tweeted.

External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj had called on Tobgay yesterday and discussed ways to deepen the bilateral cooperation.

In their talks, Modi and Tobgay are also expected to deliberate on the situation at the Doklam tri-junction, the site of 73-day-long standoff between Indian and Chinese armies last year.

In February, Tobgay had visited Guwahati to participate in an investors' summit on the sidelines of which he and Modi had held talks.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby yensoy » 07 Jul 2018 07:01

Shanmukh wrote:@SSridhar,
Are we back to the One China policy again? After refusing to recognise it for years?


I was as shocked as some of you when I first read the news. But on second thoughts, it's not all bad...

Air India refers to Taiwan as "Chinese Taipei", not as China. This is a victory in itself. Chinese govt would have wanted the reference to be Taipei, China. Yet our dexterous MEA found a way out which continued to convey our stance yet was in line with Chinese guidelines (one could stand up to it, but that's not our fight). Much like the weasely way China refers to Kashmir, we give it back to them.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Kashi » 07 Jul 2018 07:04

Chinese Taipei is what Taiwan is referred to in Olympics and Asian games as well.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Trikaal » 07 Jul 2018 09:59

yensoy wrote:
I was as shocked as some of you when I first read the news. But on second thoughts, it's not all bad...

Air India refers to Taiwan as "Chinese Taipei", not as China. This is a victory in itself. Chinese govt would have wanted the reference to be Taipei, China. Yet our dexterous MEA found a way out which continued to convey our stance yet was in line with Chinese guidelines (one could stand up to it, but that's not our fight). Much like the weasely way China refers to Kashmir, we give it back to them.

That's like saying, 'the thieves took the goods and the horses, but hey atleast they left the carriage behind.'
The lengths people go to in order to show a loss as a not so bad loss. Reminds me of how Porkis spin the Wars.
Admit it, India blinked and stood down.

Taiwan has been called Chinese Taipei for years, it's not a creation of some MEA babu. Also, chinese don't mind Taiwan being called Chinese Taipei, unlike India which actually does mind Kashmir being called disputed. So how u can compare the Taiwan situation with Kashmir and still call it a win is beyond me.

Plain and simple, this move is a part of the recalibration that Modi govt has undertaken as part of the Wuhan talks. How successful it will be is yet to be seen.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby pankajs » 07 Jul 2018 10:22

We must not sugar coat it but GOI has given in to the Chinese demand just like almost every country/government in the world. Facts are facts.

To link it to Wuhan is quite another thing. For that one must ask oneself a question. If Wuhan had not happened would Modi/GOI/India have stood resolute on Taiwan?

My answer is no. Even then it would have caved in. Therefore, the cause and effect that people are implying are not connected at least in my mind. Folks are free to make up their own mind.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chetak » 07 Jul 2018 11:09

yensoy wrote:
Shanmukh wrote:@SSridhar,
Are we back to the One China policy again? After refusing to recognise it for years?


I was as shocked as some of you when I first read the news. But on second thoughts, it's not all bad...

Air India refers to Taiwan as "Chinese Taipei", not as China. This is a victory in itself. Chinese govt would have wanted the reference to be Taipei, China. Yet our dexterous MEA found a way out which continued to convey our stance yet was in line with Chinese guidelines (one could stand up to it, but that's not our fight). Much like the weasely way China refers to Kashmir, we give it back to them.


So we f(uked them via the dictionary??

Must remember this the next time we have a border incident with the hans.

Here's hoping that the dictionaries provided by our MEA to the IA which actually faces the brunt of our MEA's failed policies, is heavy enough to throw at our new found frenemies.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Trikaal » 07 Jul 2018 12:09

pankajs wrote:
To link it to Wuhan is quite another thing. For that one must ask oneself a question. If Wuhan had not happened would Modi/GOI/India have stood resolute on Taiwan?

My answer is no. Even then it would have caved in. Therefore, the cause and effect that people are implying are not connected at least in my mind. Folks are free to make up their own mind.


I think if Wuhan and Tarrifs from America hadn't happened, then India would've said no. The present establishment has shown an appetite for confrontation when necessary, case in point, doklam.

The only tool chinese had in their pocket was to deny Air India flights. India could've responded easily by blocking similar access to chinese airlines. Currently the balance of air traffic is heavily in China's favour. A mutual agreement allows both Indian and Chinese airlines to sell 10000 seats weekly in the other market. While India is utilizing only about 1200, Chinese are utilizing all 10000 seats. So the chinese would'e lost many times more than India.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby yensoy » 07 Jul 2018 12:13

Air Canada, British Airways, Air France, Singapore Airlines etc are calling it Taipei, Taiwan, China. Air India calling it Chinese Taipei (in line with the International Olympic Committee designation) does set it apart.

Given the financial situation of Air India, govt doesn't want to do anything which will jeopardize the carrier (remember AI flies to China and leases Chinese aircraft https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/1566234/air-india-pact-china-aircraft-leasing), and with elections so close I don't think PM wants to make a big problem of a small matter. In that sense, the differentiated stance which appears to be falling in line but recognizes the disputed nature of the land is appropriate. Of course I too would have liked things to remain as they were...

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby pankajs » 07 Jul 2018 12:41

Trikaal wrote:
pankajs wrote:
To link it to Wuhan is quite another thing. For that one must ask oneself a question. If Wuhan had not happened would Modi/GOI/India have stood resolute on Taiwan?

My answer is no. Even then it would have caved in. Therefore, the cause and effect that people are implying are not connected at least in my mind. Folks are free to make up their own mind.


I think if Wuhan and Tarrifs from America hadn't happened, then India would've said no. The present establishment has shown an appetite for confrontation when necessary, case in point, doklam.

The only tool chinese had in their pocket was to deny Air India flights. India could've responded easily by blocking similar access to chinese airlines. Currently the balance of air traffic is heavily in China's favour. A mutual agreement allows both Indian and Chinese airlines to sell 10000 seats weekly in the other market. While India is utilizing only about 1200, Chinese are utilizing all 10000 seats. So the chinese would'e lost many times more than India.

Doklam was a direct security threat as understood by the Indian establishment where as Taiwan issue is not even close. To say that just because India reacted resolutely on one it will react similarly on any other issue(s) is wide off the mark. To state simply India did not feel the *necessity* for confrontation with China on Taiwan on the merits of the issue itself.

There are many many issues on which India has accommodated China's stance and much before Wuhan or even before Doklam under Modi. That by itself should dispel the notion of linkage between Wuhan and Taiwan. Indian stand on issues are as varied as they come depending on the time, place and the issue itself.

Since you have presented the issue under discussion in an "economic" paradigm please explain the sameness of Modi/GOI/Indian stand on trade balance or rather trade imbalance. To me it seems that our stand on closing the trade gap after Wuhan remains same as before Wuhan i.e. Wuhan had no impact. We neither relaxed nor restricted things for China before or after Wuhan. That should be clear enough as far as evidence goes.
Last edited by pankajs on 07 Jul 2018 12:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Trikaal » 07 Jul 2018 12:52

yensoy wrote:Air Canada, British Airways, Air France, Singapore Airlines etc are calling it Taipei, Taiwan, China. Air India calling it Chinese Taipei (in line with the International Olympic Committee designation) does set it apart.


https://www.google.nl/amp/s/amp.busines ... ina-2018-5
Not all info in the article is correct as of today. Here's a list of airlines who refused to change.

American Airlines- Refused to change
United Airlines- Refused to change
Cathay Pacific(Hong Kong) - Refused to change
Air Asia- Removed all countries, just shows city name
Delta- changed from country to region
Last edited by Trikaal on 07 Jul 2018 13:08, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby pankajs » 07 Jul 2018 12:53

IIRC, Quantas or some Australian airlines has decided to comply as of yesterday.

Update: https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 4zk0h.html
Taiwan hits back at Qantas over decision to bow to Beijing pressure

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Trikaal » 07 Jul 2018 13:07

pankajs wrote:Doklam was a direct security threat as understood by the Indian establishment where as Taiwan issue is not even close. To say that just because India reacted resolutely on one it will react similarly on any other issue(s) is wide off the mark. To state simply India did not feel the *necessity* for confrontation with China on Taiwan on the merits of the issue itself.

There are many many issues on which India has accommodated China's stance and much before Wuhan or even before Doklam under Modi. That by itself should dispel the notion of linkage between Wuhan and Taiwan. Indian stand on issues are as varied as they come depending on the time, place and the issue itself.

Since you have presented the issue under discussion in an "economic" paradigm please explain the sameness of Modi/GOI/Indian stand on trade balance or rather trade imbalance. To me it seems that our stand on closing the trade gap after Wuhan remains same as before Wuhan i.e. Wuhan had no impact. We neither relaxed nor restricted things for China before or after Wuhan. That should be clear enough as far as evidence goes.


I was not implying a parallel between Doklam and the taiwan issue. Taiwan issue started in 2010 when China started issuing stapled visas for Kashmir and Arunachal Pradesh. My motive of pointing at Doklam was to show that the govt is ready for confrontation if necessary. You are correct in assuming that India did not consider the Taiwan issue important enough.

Yes, India's trade policy vis-a-vis China hasn't changed before/after Wuhan. For that matter, it didn't change before/after doklam too. I firmly believe that our trade policy with China needs an overhaul, even if it means declaring a Trumpesque Trade war on china.

India's trade policy wasn't expected to change post Wuhan. Only china was expected to make some concessions, which it did recently. though it is hard to say whether that was because of Wuhan or concessions made to stop other countries from joining in on the trade war. In return, india was expected to lower confrontation which it has.

pankajs wrote:IIRC, Quantas or some Australian airlines has decided to comply as of yesterday.

Update: https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 4zk0h.html
Taiwan hits back at Qantas over decision to bow to Beijing pressure

Yes, corrected that. Checked the rest too. Apart from Qantas, all show just Taiwan.


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