Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Prasad » 24 Jun 2019 11:41

In the current spat, it is important for India to understand what is really happening and not blindly take what "analysts" are saying at face-value. Or even that what they're saying is alone what is important or the only agenda. Case in point -

https://twitter.com/jjding99/status/114 ... 61639?s=19

He is a prominent chinese lang researcher who's newsletter carries translations of official chinese govt releases and is used by many many western "analysts". Now add this to the above tweet and make up your own minds.

All this is as much applicable to china as it is to us. Irrespective of our differences with the northeners, mustn't lose focus of everybody else's angle in this fight and how we need to tackle this. I wonder if china getting totally crushed is in our longterm interest.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Singha » 24 Jun 2019 13:26

cheen getting crushed would lead to the similar kind of western truimphalism and euphoria that came in 1991 "end of history" days.
it would give EU a new lease of life as a global power.

its better the P2 keep at each others throats for a couple of decades until we complete our internal cleanup and reforms and take our seat.

cheen is investing heavily in vietnam and other parts of ASEAN to wean them away from usa and cement its control of the SCS islands.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 24 Jun 2019 14:39

Prasad, neither can China be crushed nor can it be in our interest; but, an emaciated China would certainly be in our interests. As the USSR was dismantled, China filled that vacuum. When a similar thing happens to China, India should certainly not be found wanting. It must be our turn. We should work with that in the back of our mind. Until then, we must bide our time and play it very carefully.
Last edited by SSridhar on 24 Jun 2019 18:42, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: corrected typo

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Prasad » 24 Jun 2019 14:48

Sir,
Agreed. However, even China despite its rapid economic progress is nowhere near to a position to challenge for global supremacy. Blowing up MIC2025 and talking themselves up too much + trump getting elected dovetailed neatly into their current predicament. We are not even close to their position prior to mic2025 announcement. Even before that they had their thousand talents program. We pretty much bumble n stumble from one bit of progress to another. Xi threw out Deng's caution to the winds to show pooh has a bigger dong. We wont. Far too many Ettappans ready to out us anyway even if we get to some sort of strength.

Even now, all this trade tariff fight has only led to Vietnam cashing in due to their existing setup already catering, albeit at a smaller scale, to what the chinese producers do. We just talk. This same fight festering or blindly ignored by the dems might've helped us but even that might be suspect given how we might've blithely let hw/zte expand like the mobile phone proliferation today.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chola » 24 Jun 2019 15:08

Prasad wrote:All this is as much applicable to china as it is to us. Irrespective of our differences with the northeners, mustn't lose focus of everybody else's angle in this fight and how we need to tackle this. I wonder if china getting totally crushed is in our longterm interest.


SSridhar wrote:Prasad, neither can China be crushed nor can it be in our interest; but, an emancipated China would certainly be in our interests.


Cheen being crushed would mean it capitulates to Amreeki standards and opens up its markets to Amreeki firms without any attempt to climb the independent technological ladder through TOT for market access schemes.

NOT something we want for ourselves. If Cheen capitulates then there is little reason in Western minds that we shouldn't do the same.

The truth is, a developing nation cannot hope to advance without protecting its own industries in the beginning. Our greatest weapon in advancing up the tech ladder is access to our billion plus market.

Also, a fully capitulated Cheen in the US camp (like Japan) would be less independent but probably even more competitive against India. For one, an emancipated Cheen would be far more formidable in the soft-power end of things. Think Kpop times 1000 with what will soon to be the world's largest box office. For another, it would also mean a freer hand for them in the IOR if the US is no longer opposed.

The best scenario is for us is for Cheen to tough out a long grinding fight. This would squeeze the supply chains serving the West to relocate outside of the PRC while the Western firms are forced out of Cheen. This weakens the future prospects of both Chini and US MNCs.

The smart money would be on Japan and Germany who will try to replace Unkil in Cheen and Cheen in Amreeka. If we were smart we can do the same. (Bollywood is showing the way. It has established a major foothold in Cheen and can expand more as Hollywood is locked out in the years to come.)

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Jun 2019 17:10

The scenario is Cheen will behave like Imperial Japan , sooner or later- its all winding up to that

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Singha » 24 Jun 2019 20:02

a long grinding fight is what I see. perhaps the highly automated plants of usa japan soko germany can produce some of the cheen things at the same cost but lot less manpower.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 24 Jun 2019 20:15

Ready to sign "no back door" pact with govt; others should also sign it: Huawei - PTI
Chinese telecom gear maker Huawei Monday said it is ready to sign "no back door" agreement with the Indian government to discourage espionage, and other companies should also follow suit.

Huawei's business engagement in India is under scrutiny by the government after the US restricted hardware as well as software supplies to it.

"We are proposing to the Indian government that we are ready to sign 'no back door' agreement. We encourage other OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) also to sign this kind of agreement with the government and telecom operators," Huawei India Chief Executive Officer Jay Chen told .

"Back door" in technology products refers to arrangement with government or with any third party to share customers' data in an unauthorised manner with mala fide intention.

The telecom department had come up with security guidelines in 2011 that mandated telecom operators to install certified equipment and devices in their network to ensure they are free from malicious softwares or bug.

It proposed hefty penalties on telecom companies for failing to ensure compliance to the law. However, the government is yet to set up labs to examine security issues in telecom gears and products.

The US government has alleged that law in China warrants its companies to share data with country's intelligence for national security.

Chen said that Huawei has conducted research on Chinese law on its own and with the help of big legal firms based in the US, UK and Australia.

"They did some comparison. The Chinese intelligence law says that citizens and companies are supposed to cooperate if there is some national security threat but they never asked to share data or cooperate for state spying. Similar laws exist in the US, UK, Australia and India too," Chen said.

Huawei at present has most of its equipment installed in the network of Bharti Airtel and Vodafone Idea.

"The previous security guidelines issued in 2011 was limited up to 4G networks. Now, it should be upgraded for 5G networks as well," Chen said.

Huawei has teamed up with Vodafone Idea in India to conduct trials for the 5G services but is yet to receive approval for the same.

"We want a level playing field. I firmly believe that the Indian government will allocate spectrum for trials to everyone at one go and not differentiate based on vendors. India can't afford to work with select vendors for another 10 years when it is aspiring to become the third largest economy of the world," Chen said.

Telecom and IT Minister Ravi Shankar Prasad has said that India's digital economy is likely to hit USD 1 trillion in next 4-5 years.

According to Swedish telecom gear maker Ericsson, 5G mobile services are expected to create an over USD 27 billion business opportunity for India by 2026, while Huawei has estimated India to be the largest 5G market after China in the coming 10 years.

Chen said that Huawei is ready to further invest in India, work with Indian startups to develop solutions for the world, set up labs, work on skill development after it gets positive reply from India on its engagement.

"European vendors say that their prices will remain competitive to Huawei because we are present in India," Chen said.

He also said the US ban on hardware and software supplies has not adversely impacted the company's operations and it has already started sourcing components from non-US countries.

"Many European companies have come forward because it is a business opportunity for them. After the US ban, our employees across board have started working at a very high efficiency level. The spirit is now very high. They are working on alternatives," Chen said.

When asked about Huawei plan around its operating system Hongmeng for smartphones, Chen said it is an alternative but the company will prefer to work with Google's Android ecosystem.

"An open source Android ecosystem will remain our first choice. If possible, we will continue to prioritize using Android. Technically, developing an OS is not difficult, the difficult part is the ecosystem. Apple and Google have done very well in building their ecosystem. In the past, we have always supported the ecosystems of Apple, Google, and Microsoft. Huawei's own OS is a backup plan. If we have no other choice, we have to find a way to survive," Chen said.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby VKumar » 24 Jun 2019 20:15

One of the measures to consider is to raise Customs Duty on all imports from China to 200% at least on simple consumer items. This will encourage MSME to 'Make in India' as they will be able to charge better prices, given the higher costs in India.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby syam » 24 Jun 2019 20:55

chinis manufacturing and other stuff are closely linked with japanese and korean markets. Most of the global gdp is from asia.
From recent num,
East Asia(incl India) gdp - 31% of world
American gdp - 28% of world
Europe - 22%

If we go by ppp, same numbers are 35+, 18 and 20. That 35 number is from top 5(cn, ind, jap, indo, korea) east asian counties.

Whatever way we look at, the whole thing looking very good for chinis. If amerikis really want to hurt chinis , they have to isolate chinis from their neighbour markets first. talk about home advantage. Situation is way out of hands.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 24 Jun 2019 21:02

VKumar wrote:One of the measures to consider is to raise Customs Duty on all imports from China to 200% at least on simple consumer items.

No doubt that as a developing country, India has certain leverages on customs duty, but I doubt if 200% would not exceed the cap by WTO.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Lisa » 24 Jun 2019 23:59



The Chinese carry their hearts in their purses. We need to hit them there and refuse to buy 5G equipment from their companies. No harm in having a low ranking official say off the record, no NSG membership must cost China such a contract, again off the record. :wink: :wink:

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby nam » 25 Jun 2019 01:03

VKumar wrote:One of the measures to consider is to raise Customs Duty on all imports from China to 200% at least on simple consumer items. This will encourage MSME to 'Make in India' as they will be able to charge better prices, given the higher costs in India.


The thing is Chinese are good at dodging this. They will just re-route it through another country.

The Chinese have been taking advantage of our FTA with some countries. India has FTA with Burma. China force a FTA with Burma. Then exports goods to India by labeling them "Made in Burma".

Most of the BRI money has been used to form FTA with these nations, allowing backdoor exports for Chinese goods to large markets.

Pak has preferential entry to European market for their textile. All Chinis have to do is package their textile "Made in Pakistan" and ship it through Karachi!

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby abhik » 25 Jun 2019 10:19

If we can put 100% duty on imported cars and booz surely we can on other items. Only reason we are not putting any restrictions on Chinese imports is because Indian chorporates and trader class is profiting from it, there are no manufacturing lalas (big enough) left to oppose it.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby nandakumar » 25 Jun 2019 10:54

abhik wrote:If we can put 100% duty on imported cars and booz surely we can on other items. Only reason we are not putting any restrictions on Chinese imports is because Indian chorporates and trader class is profiting from it, there are no manufacturing lalas (big enough) left to oppose it.

Theoretically speaking, this is hard to fudge. There must be a minimum value addition measured as a percentage of FOB value of goods exported by a country to another country under an FTA. Secondly the inputs used and the output that is exported must not fall under the same heading of commodity classification code used in international trade. In the case of certain types of goods, especially chemicalls there must be specific processes that must be shown to have been performed. For instance if you are exporting urea you must show that you have carried out naphtha/natural gas cracking.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Singha » 25 Jun 2019 11:24

letting chinese mobiles have a free run till now in india was a calculated move by the govt to close the digital gap and empower everyone with any means the ability to access the internet. and in a few short years smartphone penetration will reach 100% (overall we are at 30% now). local assembly would have also somewhat reduced the electronics import bill.

there were no other vendors except samsung and apple. apple does not play in value segment and until lately samsung had not paid much attention to the sub-15k segment.

so much of this will be prawn, kiki challenge and tiktok but people must also be doing useful stuff on data plans. for many it is their only route to internet.

https://www.livemint.com/industry/telec ... 43979.html

New Delhi: India has the world’s highest data usage per smartphone at an average of 9.8GB per month, a new report by Swedish telecom equipment maker Ericsson said, adding this will double to 18GB by 2024, fuelled by rich video content.

North East Asia comes second with 7.1GB per month while West Asia and Africa region is the lowest at 3GB per month, the report for year 2018 said.

“Improved device penetration, affordable data tariff plans, and increase in data-intensive content such as videos are driving this growth in India," Nitin Bansal, head of Ericsson India and head of network solutions, South East Asia, Oceania and India, said at the launch of The Ericsson Mobility Report on Wednesday.

Triggered by Reliance Jio’s entry in September 2016, India’s data consumption has exploded, with all other operators also offering cheap data tariffs. Mobile data traffic is growing as more Indians spend time streaming videos, which is expected to account for 75% of overall mobile traffic by 2024.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Singha » 25 Jun 2019 11:25

that is why Namo cryptically answered in his interview on not buying chinese phones - "I will leave it up to peoples wisdom"

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 25 Jun 2019 11:27

Many here are apprehensive of India joing RCEP. We feel that the rest of the ASEAN countries & China, Japan & South Korea are forcing us.

Now, Mahathir offers a solution of going ahead without us and Australia & New Zealanad (i.e. only 13 countries - ASEAN 10 plus China, Japan, SoKo) but GoI feels offended by that also.

Clearly, GoI sees merit in RCEP and is intent on negotiating a deal and joining it.

It’s premature to count India out of the RCEP, says Centre
Government officials said it would be ‘premature’ to suggest India could be cut out of the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) being negotiated by 16 countries led by the ASEAN bloc, if it doesn’t agree to join it by the year-end.

The officials rejected a suggestion to that effect by Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohammed, who spoke on the sidelines of the ASEAN summit held in Bangkok on Sunday.

Reiterating that India is ‘consistently’ engaged with RCEP negotiations, which will see a free trade agreement which includes ASEAN countries, China, Japan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand, Commerce Ministry sources said Indian delegations have a series of meetings planned in the next few weeks to discuss the way forward in RCEP.

Unresolved issues

“India also has shown it is keen for the partnership to work, as seen by our consistent engagement on the issue. There are some issues that need to be ironed out still, but it would be extremely premature to talk about RCEP going ahead without India,” a Commerce Ministry official who preferred not to be named. In an interview to the CNBC channel, Mr. Mahathir said he would prefer to go ahead with a formulation of 13 countries that are willing to go ahead immediately, and allow outliers India, Australia and New Zealand to join the pact at a future date.

“They [Malaysia] can have their perspective. They are not the full RCEP. We are sure that many other countries do not share this view and want to work with India in RCEP,” the official responded.

While Mr. Mahathir’s messaging may have been bluntly put, others in the grouping have been nudging India to show progress on RCEP negotiations in time for a proposed final declaration in November this year. Last year, the government had been able to negotiate for time on RCEP given elections were due to be held in India, Indonesia, Thailand and Australia between March and May this year.

“With the elections done, we expect the pressure to be ratcheted up by ASEAN countries to conclude the negotiations, and India will need to make a choice quite soon,” said a diplomat privy to the negotiations.

In their Bangkok declaration on Sunday, ASEAN leaders stated their “strong commitment” to concluding RCEP negotiations, adding that ASEAN partners like India must “prioritise RCEP negotiations and work with ASEAN to conclude the RCEP negotiations within this year.” Last week, Singapore’s Minister of Communication & Information and Minister-in-Charge of Trade Relations S. Iswaran said during a visit to Delhi that India must not stay out of the agreement.

“India can ask itself, if it is better off inside such an agreement or outside such an agreement from business and also from a geopolitical point of view... if India is not part of it, I think it will be a loss.” Apart from giving up the first mover’s advantage, India, would give up the chance to frame the groupings rules and investment standards if it fails to join RCEP, say diplomats.

Meanwhile the Chinese government, which is understood to have first proposed going ahead with 13 countries instead 16 also reached out to the government, sending a delegation led by Vice Minister for Commerce Wang Shouwen for talks with Commerce Secretary Anup Wadhawan earlier this month. Officials privy to the discussions on RCEP however said the talks were inconclusive.

India’s main opposition to RCEP is the prospect of opening up its markets to China. Even though the grouping has accepted dual tariff rates for trade with China and other RCEP members, Indian industry has opposed RCEP for the larger impact on steel and aluminium, copper, pharmaceuticals and textile products and of allowing RCEP countries especially China and South Korea to “flood the Indian market.” India is the only RCEP country without a free trade pact with China, and has trade deficits with 11 of 16 RCEP countries.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 25 Jun 2019 13:59


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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 27 Jun 2019 07:06

X-posted from the Foreign Policy thread.

Securing the Indian Ocean sea-lanes - G.Parthasarathy, Business Line
Recently published figures on global exports of countries are interesting. China, whose exports were less than India’s in 1948, is today the world’s largest exporter, with annual exports of $1.99 trillion. Even the US lags behind China, with annual exports of $1.46 trillion. India, with annual exports of $268.6 billion, ranks twentieth — behind Singapore and Taiwan.

Those who believe that India can match China’s regional influence, on its own, should remember these facts. India will have to be measured and realistic in seeking to balance Chinese power across the Indian Ocean. We are working with and advising littoral countries against becoming overly dependent on China. Our effort is to balance Chinese power, in cooperation with partners like Japan, the US, European Union members Germany and France and like-minded Asian countries, like Indonesia and Vietnam.

With foreign trade and investment gaining importance in promoting national influence in today’s world, safeguarding maritime security is becoming increasingly important. India is, therefore, paying greater attention now, to the security of its sea-lanes, across its Indian Ocean “neighbourhood”.

This “neighbourhood” extends from Aden and the Straits of Hormuz, the narrow gateway in the oil rich Persian Gulf, astride India’s western shores, to the Malacca Straits. It is across these sea-lanes that over 60 per cent of the world’s petroleum exports move, on maritime routes.

These sea-lanes, which move across the Andaman and Nicobar Islands in our east, are also the strategic routes for the flow of oil, from across the Indian Ocean, to the Pacific Ocean. The Straits of Malacca are regarded as crucial “choke points” for the world’s sea-borne oil supplies. Security of Indian Ocean sea-routes from Hormuz to Malacca, therefore, remains crucial for India’s national security.

India gets over 70 per cent of its oil supplies across the sea routes of the Indian Ocean. The imperatives of energy security are becoming increasingly complex, because of rivalries and tensions, within the Indian Ocean Region, as India now faces a growingly assertive China. Beijing receives most of its oil imports from across the Indian Ocean through the Arabian Sea, the Bay of Bengal and the Straits of Malacca. An estimated 16 million barrels of oil are transported across the Straits of Malacca daily.

Global dimension

China would have realistically and hopefully recognised that any land-based adventure across its borders with India, could lead to disruption in its supplies of oil and gas, crossing the narrow Straits of Malacca.

Interestingly, China is sparing no effort to expand the Myanmar Port of Kyaukpyu, in the Bay of Bengal. This port is linked to China’s Yunnan Province, by a network of pipelines across Myanmar.


Security of the sea-lanes in the Indian Ocean now has global dimensions. Apart from rivalries within the region, its geopolitics is substantially influenced or challenged by the US and its allies like Japan on the one hand, and rivals like China on the other. Tensions across the Indian Ocean region also arise from the sectarian, Shia-Sunni and civilisational Arab-Iranian, rivalries.

Interestingly, Iraq is the only major Arab power, with a majority Shia population. It carefully balances its ties between its Sunni Arab brethren and Iran. Superimposed on these rivalries, are Israeli-Palestinian tensions, with Islamic countries paying mostly lip service, to the Palestinian cause.

While both China and India have avoided involvement in these regional rivalries, India has growing concerns about China’s ambitions for military bases across the Indian Ocean region
, given its growing naval presence in the region. China uses its economic clout to offer credits for infrastructure projects, which lead recipients into a “debt trap”.

Beijing has invested $590 million in building a naval base in Djibouti in the Horn of Africa. Interestingly, the US, France and Japan have bases nearby. China took over control of the Hambantota Port in Sri Lanka, after Colombo was unable to repay Chinese credits, extended for the port project. The port of Mombasa in Kenya appears headed in the same direction, as also the airport in Zambian capital Lusaka. India has been drawing the attention of smaller countries to the dangers of getting exposed to excessive debt liabilities with China. China also extends significant support and patronage to political leaders like former Maldivian President Abdulla Yameen, who are “encouraged” to ignore Indian concerns and interests.

Clear strategy

Prime Minister Modi has evolved a clear strategy to deal with partner countries across the Indian Ocean. India has taken a number of measures to promote economic and security cooperation with Island states like Mauritius, Seychelles and Maldives. The “special relationship” that India enjoys in Mauritius was evident, by the presence of Maldives Prime Minister Pravind Jugnauth in the swearing in ceremonies of Modi, both in 2014 and 2019. Three Indian built Fast Patrol Boats have been supplied in Mauritius in recent years.

Describing the extensive maritime ties with Mauritius, Modi noted: “As frontline states of the Indian Ocean, Prime Minister Jugnauth and I agree that it is our responsibility to ensure collective maritime security around our coasts and in our Exclusive Economic Zone.” Ties with the Maldives, including in maritime cooperation, have been revived, after the visit of Modi to Maldives, almost immediately after he was sworn in for his second term. Ties with the Seychelles are also being strengthened.

There are concerns that China appears to be undertaking an effort in Colombo, like it did in Hambantota, to take over management of yet another strategic port, in Sri Lanka. India has recently offered to participate in building a container terminal in Colombo, in collaboration with Japan. The bulk of the cargo handled in Colombo, is destined for India.

China has, however, made a serious mistake by making untenable claims on maritime borders, with virtually all its maritime neighbours. It is facing a serious problem with Indonesia, which has, on the other hand, demarcated its maritime boundaries with India. Rejecting Chinese claims on its “Natuna Islands,” Indonesia asserted: “China’s territorial claims in the South China Sea have no legal basis under international law”.

Prime Minister Modi and Indonesia’s President Joko Widodo agreed recently that India would cooperate in building the Sabang Port, in Indonesia, located close to the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. The Indian navy is now well positioned to meet security challenges across the sea-lanes of the Indian Ocean. Contrary to popular perception, India is moving steadily towards playing an increasingly significant role in its Indian Ocean neighbourhood.

The writer is a former High Commissioner to Pakistan

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Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Peregrine » 27 Jun 2019 15:48

Huawei employees worked with China military on research projects: Report Reuters

NEW DELHI: Huawei Technologies Co employees worked on at least 10 research projects with Chinese armed forces personnel over the past decade, Bloomberg reported on Thursday, collaborations the Chinese company said it was not aware of.

Huawei workers teamed up with members of various organs of China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) in projects spanning artificial intelligence to radio communications, Bloomberg said. Bloombelg, Huawei othel Chinese "Speakee with Folked Tongue!"

"Huawei is not aware of its employees publishing research papers in their individual capacity," Huawei spokesman Joe Kelly told Reuters, adding the company does not have any research and development collaboration or partnerships with PLA-affiliated institutions.

"Huawei only develops and produces communications products that conform to civil standards worldwide, and does not customise R&D products for the military."

Huawei has come under mounting scrutiny for over a year, led by US allegations that "back doors" in its routers, switches and other gear could allow China to spy on US communications.

The company has denied its products pose a security threat.

The US government last month effectively banned its agencies from buying Huawei tele-communications equipment and put severe restrictions on US firms doing business with Huawei. Modi Ji should Leapet similally!

The research projects are part of a few publicly disclosed studies, Bloomberg said, adding it culled the papers from published periodicals and online research databases used mainly by Chinese academics and industry specialists.

China's defence ministry spokesman Ren Guoqiang told Reuters the ministry does not comment on academic research.

"As everyone knows, Huawei is a private company that has developed on its own. There is no so-called Chinese military background," he said. HA! HA!! & HA!!!

Cheers Image

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 28 Jun 2019 09:02

Japan and China vow to be 'eternal neighbours' at Abe-Xi summit meeting in Osaka - Straits Times
Chinese President Xi Jinping and Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe on Thursday (June 27) vowed to turn a new page on the frosty ties between the two Asian economic superpowers, redefining their relations as "eternal neighbours" that will not allow ties to deteriorate again.

This comes as Mr Xi became the first Chinese President to visit Japan in almost nine years - since then-President Hu Jintao went to Yokohama in November 2010 for the Apec meeting.

Mr Abe invited Mr Xi as a state guest in spring next year, during which he will have an audience with Emperor Naruhito.

"We would like to welcome President Xi as a state guest around the time of the cherry blossoms next spring and wish to take Japan-China relations to a higher level," he said.

Mr Xi replied that the plan was a "good idea" and will crystallise "a new atmosphere that we have not seen for many years".


Bilateral ties have been marred over a bitter territorial spat over a group of East China Sea islets known as Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China, but have been on the mend since the two nations agreed to build forward-oriented ties last year.

The two leaders agreed to "have permanent and close communication as eternal neighbours", according to a readout of the summit by Japanese Foreign Press Secretary Takeshi Osuga.

Mr Osuga said that during their hour-long summit, Mr Abe highlighted the importance of a free and open Hong Kong that is prosperous under the "one country, two systems" model, with a controversial extradition Bill, suspended indefinitely by Hong Kong Chief Executive Carrie Lam, in mind.

Mr Abe also urged Chinese restraint in the East China Sea and South China Sea, where Chinese military build-up has been a major cause of concern in the region.

On both issues, however, Mr Osuga declined to elaborate on Mr Xi's response beyond what "has been the Chinese position".

The Free and Open Indo-Pacific vision to support a rules-based regional order and promote development assistance in the region was also discussed by Mr Abe in his separate meetings with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Australian counterpart Scott Morrison.

Mr Xi may have deflected Mr Abe's concerns on Hong Kong, but a protest has been scheduled today in Osaka's entertainment district of Namba against the extradition Bill that, if passed, would allow Hong Kong to extradite people to jurisdictions including mainland China.

Many fear that this law will be used against critics of Beijing and political dissidents.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chola » 28 Jun 2019 09:24

Cheen is scared stiff. It is resorting to hiding stuff that can be viewed as challenging Amreeki dominant position on the technical ladder.

It didn't help them from getting their top HPC companies embargoed too.

There is a lesson to be learned here for us too, I think. Not sure which one though. lol

Having Cheen not submitting new supercomputers to the Top500 list is not a good thing. We'll see other countries hiding theirs in the future. We'll eventually have inaccurate lists for everything as global trust fractures.

https://www.scmp.com/tech/policy/article/3015997/china-has-decided-not-fan-flames-super-computing-rivalry-amid-us

China ‘has decided not to fan the flames on supercomputing rivalry’ amid US tensions

Li Tao
Bien Perez
Published: 12:00am, 26 Jun, 2019
Updated: 8:08am, 26 Jun, 2019


Chinese decision makers decided to withhold the country’s newest Shuguang supercomputers from the latest supercomputing contest, even though they operate more than 50 per cent faster than the best current US machines, as China does not want to fan the flames of existing trade tensions, said the sources, who declined to be named as the information is private.

According to the Top500 list published last week, the US has retained its top position as the producer of the fastest supercomputers in the world. China, which has not introduced any new machines in recent months, is in second place.

...

The newest Shuguang supercomputers, currently located at the computer network information Centre of the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS) in Beijing, are capable of performing more than 200 petaflops. A petaflop refers to one quadrillion (or a million billion) calculations per second.

The Shuguang supercomputers’ abilities far exceed the US leaders in the chart, Summit and Sierra, two IBM-built supercomputers that delivered a record 148.6 petaflops and 94.6 petaflops in the June contest respectively, said the people.

“China is finding itself with no choice but to create its own alternatives to US technology,” said Paul Haswell, a partner who advises technology companies at international law firm Pinsent Masons.

...

However, China’s strategic concession to play a low-key game on supercomputing rivalry did not stop the US Commerce Department last Friday from adding five Chinese top supercomputing developers to its Entity List, which effectively bars them from purchasing American technology.


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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Prasad » 28 Jun 2019 11:47

It isn't just who has the biggest dong fighting for the Top 5 places in the SC race. It is also about who sells how much and has marketshare. Even in the miniscule SC market it is a tough race. Look at the Vendor share in the top 500 SC stakes.

https://www.top500.org/statistics/list/53/vendors/

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chola » 28 Jun 2019 11:57

Prasad wrote:It isn't just who has the biggest dong fighting for the Top 5 places in the SC race. It is also about who sells how much and has marketshare. Even in the miniscule SC market it is a tough race. Look at the Vendor share in the top 500 SC stakes.

https://www.top500.org/statistics/list/53/vendors/


Exactly. You would expect nations to toot their own horn to increase marketshare.

HPCs don't just impact its own market but the markets of other high tech products from the countries involved on the race. When countries are hiding this stuff then competing in the market becomes secondary to other things like geo-politics or war where secrecy trumps profits.

Also makes the global market hard to judge for Wall Street if this spread to other things.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Singha » 28 Jun 2019 12:03

well its well known that US national physics labs and NSA may have more classified SC not in public domain.
massa is a large visible iceberg, but that still means 9/10 is inside the jockey undies.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chola » 28 Jun 2019 12:22

^^^ Yes and no, we expect classified systems to be hidden but the top systems are most likely in the Top500 when there is real competition. Unkil passed Cheen in 2018 just as Cheen passed Unkil a few years before that. Theoretically neither country wanted to play second fiddle to the other.

But if Cheen no longer submits its fastest HPCs to the list then Unkil might no longer need to either as long as the two Amreeki systems currently on top stay there. Then the list will become meaningless as everyone is hiding their best. Then again since the market is fractured with barriers between national economies, they might not care anymore about the marketing aspect.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Prasad » 28 Jun 2019 12:46

Cheen topped the list for years running because the US wasn't really fighting. Oakridge and Livermore have been the traditional No 1 for a longtime.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby SSridhar » 28 Jun 2019 15:04

Canadian navy ships ‘buzzed’ by Chinese warplanes - AFP
Two Canadian naval vessels were “buzzed” by Chinese fighter planes when they sailed through the East China Sea this week, the Canadian military said on Thursday.

A Canadian navy helicopter was also targeted by a laser detected from a nearby fishing boat, it said in a statement.

There were no injuries nor damage, but the revelations come amid heightened tensions between the two nations over Canada’s arrest of a senior telecoms executive last December and China’s detention of two Canadian nationals in apparent retaliation.

Canada’s defence ministry said the frigate HMCS Regina and support vessel Asterix were in “international waters in the East China Sea” when two Chinese Su-30 fighter planes “passed the ship at a range of approximately 300 metres (985 feet) and an altitude of approximately 100 feet”.

The so-called “buzzing” happened on Monday at around 3.30pm local time, it said.

The ships had been shadowed by several Chinese vessels and aircraft as they transited through the maritime region.

Ottawa described the interactions as “professional and cordial”, adding that the Chinese fly-past was “not hazardous, nor unexpected” given the naval operation’s proximity to China.

Both ships had just come from a visit to Vietnam’s Cam Ranh Bay and were headed to Northeast Asia to join a multinational effort to prevent smuggling in evasion of UN sanctions against North Korea.

Relations between China and Canada deteriorated since December when police in Vancouver detained Huawei chief financial officer Meng Wanzhou on a US arrest warrant.

Days later China arrested two Canadians – former diplomat Michael Kovrig and businessman Michael Spavor – in what is widely seen as a tit-for-tat move.

Leaders of the two nations, both in Japan for G20 talks this week, have not spoken since.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby kit » 28 Jun 2019 15:41

chola wrote:^^^ Yes and no, we expect classified systems to be hidden but the top systems are most likely in the Top500 when there is real competition. Unkil passed Cheen in 2018 just as Cheen passed Unkil a few years before that. Theoretically neither country wanted to play second fiddle to the other.

But if Cheen no longer submits its fastest HPCs to the list then Unkil might no longer need to either as long as the two Amreeki systems currently on top stay there. Then the list will become meaningless as everyone is hiding their best. Then again since the market is fractured with barriers between national economies, they might not care anymore about the marketing aspect.


Whats the relevance of "Top 500 " list if countries esp those like China stay out of it ?, it would be the western Top 500

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby darshan » 29 Jun 2019 09:29

https://www.opindia.com/2019/06/vedanta ... er-market/
Vedanta claims that Chinese companies funded anti-Sterlite protests in order to capture Indian copper market
Vedanta's lawyer also pointed out that the CBI, which was conducting the probe into the firing, till now hasn't called the company for an enquiry. Despite that, the company is punished with a closure order.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chola » 29 Jun 2019 16:38

kit wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ Yes and no, we expect classified systems to be hidden but the top systems are most likely in the Top500 when there is real competition. Unkil passed Cheen in 2018 just as Cheen passed Unkil a few years before that. Theoretically neither country wanted to play second fiddle to the other.

But if Cheen no longer submits its fastest HPCs to the list then Unkil might no longer need to either as long as the two Amreeki systems currently on top stay there. Then the list will become meaningless as everyone is hiding their best. Then again since the market is fractured with barriers between national economies, they might not care anymore about the marketing aspect.


Whats the relevance of "Top 500 " list if countries esp those like China stay out of it ?, it would be the western Top 500


It would be an Unkil's list onlee. Right now Cheen has over 200 and Amreeka another 120. If nations think that the US will clobber any phoren nation or company that threatens Amreeki dominance then they too will leave their best off the list. Cheen not submitting new systems (that the industry know are coming online) is a bad sign.

The Top500 used to be a list that allowed the top global technology nations and companies to compete with one another and so pushes the entire industry and everyone forward. If countries are keeping their best off the list then everything is on war footing where secrecy trumps marketing.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby chola » 29 Jun 2019 16:49

BTW, Trump has made Eleven bend the knee to restart trade talks. The Top500 abstention is just one area where Cheen is bowing before Amreeki power.

They just bought a massive amount of Amreeki soybeans right before G20 meet with Trump:
https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3016591/us-department-agriculture-reports-surprise-soybean-deal-china

They agreed to restarted talks with Trump even though they said they won't do it unless the tariffs are lifted. Well, the original tariffs stay in place and new ones hang over them.

When the smoke clears from this trade/technology/geopolitical war, chinis will not challenge Amreeka for another generation or so. At least not openly. lol

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby A_Gupta » 29 Jun 2019 17:36

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201906/2 ... 2af0e.html
China will ramp up its push to achieve breakthroughs in crucial software, with a focus on encouraging fundamental theoretical innovation and promoting cross-sector cooperation, the country's top industry regulator said on Friday.

The move comes as companies are placing growing emphasis on domestically developing crucial software as a backup plan in case foreign products become unavailable.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby siqir » 29 Jun 2019 22:42

chinese stick was likely the rare earths and carrot some concession on north korea
kim had put on quite a spectacle for xjp visit few days ago

if huawei gets american tech again it means china avoided the thucydides trap and will be numero uno next decade

americans did not show will to decouple and pay the economic cost

it is bad news for japan
more so given how plaza accord went for them

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby kit » 29 Jun 2019 23:48

chola wrote:BTW, Trump has made Eleven bend the knee to restart trade talks. The Top500 abstention is just one area where Cheen is bowing before Amreeki power.

They just bought a massive amount of Amreeki soybeans right before G20 meet with Trump:
https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3016591/us-department-agriculture-reports-surprise-soybean-deal-china

They agreed to restarted talks with Trump even though they said they won't do it unless the tariffs are lifted. Well, the original tariffs stay in place and new ones hang over them.

When the smoke clears from this trade/technology/geopolitical war, chinis will not challenge Amreeka for another generation or so. At least not openly. lol


rather hiding its fist!

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby kit » 29 Jun 2019 23:51

chola wrote:BTW, Trump has made Eleven bend the knee to restart trade talks. The Top500 abstention is just one area where Cheen is bowing before Amreeki power.

They just bought a massive amount of Amreeki soybeans right before G20 meet with Trump:
https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3016591/us-department-agriculture-reports-surprise-soybean-deal-china

They agreed to restarted talks with Trump even though they said they won't do it unless the tariffs are lifted. Well, the original tariffs stay in place and new ones hang over them.

When the smoke clears from this trade/technology/geopolitical war, chinis will not challenge Amreeka for another generation or so. At least not openly. lol


its peanuts for the Chinese, there seems some give and take behind the scenes , just Soyabean doesnt cut it

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Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Peregrine » 02 Jul 2019 04:10

5G panel head wants Chinese vendors excluded from trials - Pankaj Doval – TNN

NEW DELHI: A senior government functionary has opposed allowing Huawei to participate in the ongoing 5G trials in the country, citing security concerns about the Chinese telecom giant, which is suspected to be close to the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) and the all-powerful Communist Party of China.

Principal scientific adviser K Vijay Raghavan, who heads a high-level committee on 5G, said India should “go for (5G) trials immediately with all, except for Chinese vendors”. “For China, we should prepare pros and cons for going with them,” Raghavan said at the June 13 meeting of the sub-committee on 5G and technology trials, according to people who spoke to TOI on the matter. The committee comprises officials from the Intelligence Bureau (IB), ministries of external affairs, home, telecom and IT and the department of science & technology.

The meeting saw representatives of different wings of the government taking divergent views on letting Huawei participate in the security trials. Yet, there was consensus about the need for safeguards to deal with security fears that the Chinese major evokes worldwide because of its rumoured ties with the Chinese political and military establishment.

The Indian government will face a delicate diplomatic situation in taking a call on whether Huawei should be allowed to access the sprawling opportunity that India presents as a market for 5G technology.

Chinese behemoth Huawei's demand that it be allowed to take part in India’s 5G trials has put the government in a potentially tricky spot. Huawei's insistence has the support of Beijing, which, while rejecting allegations and suspicions against Huawei, maintains that the Chinese option would be the right choice for India, given its technological edge.

For Huawei, getting permission to participate in Indian 5G trials is critical as it comes at a time when it faces a global reversal after the ban from the US in 5G. The company feels that rejection of permission in India will not only be another reputational setback on security but will also give an advantage to global competitors such as Nokia, Ericsson, Samsung and Cisco, all of whom are vying for the multi-billion-dollar lucrative business that will flow in from the deployment of the new telecom technology.

At a meeting on June 13, MEA argued for allowing all vendors, including Chinese, to participate in the trials with “additional safeguards” . It also said since India is the second largest market in the world after China, “we need to leverage India’s position”.

The IB said that it was not opposed to any “technology proposal” , but also put on record the need to be mindful of security worries, saying that commercial considerations should not override security issues. “From a security perspective, we have to take an objective view and it is not to a specific country or company, and commercial considerations should not override security issues. The security concerns arising out of 5G need to be kept in mind. The permission to Huawei is linked to the real issue of how we secure our networks. The choice to keep out any vendor is a political call.”

Its proposal that an indigenous software loaded in the open-source hardware of 5G will provide an ‘air-gap’ to protect the systems and secure them found support from the ministry of home affairs. The committee chairman said that a list of Indian IPRs in 5G should be prepared and these indigenous technologies should be deployed in the new telecom networks and equipment that will come up.

Telecom secretary Aruna Sundararajan said that India’s stake with 5G is very high in view of the large size of the market and the ongoing digitisation efforts. However, she said that the country “needs to build security expertise” as telecom operators do not have depth on the subject. “Department of telecom wants a decision on field trials urgently with adequate safeguards, with or without Chinese vendors. For China, we should leverage this opportunity to hard bargain to our advantage. In case we want to go ahead with 5G trials with Chinese vendors, it may be appropriate to have the PMO’s approval giving the pros and cons,” the telecom ministry said.

The IT ministry, represented by secretary Ajay Prakash Sawhney, said India should endeavour to have indigenous 5G stacks, including equipment manufacturing. Ashutosh Sharma, secretary of the department of science and technology, said that India should develop 5G testing capability at the earliest. “We should have the ability to test any product in our indigenous test bed,” Sharma said, also emphasising the need for studying “biological effect” of trials.

Huawei said it wants to participate in the 5G trials and has assured the government that it does not share/compromise the data of individuals and enterprises. Huawei India’s boss also dispelled often-expressed fears that the Chinese government and military have unbridled authority to gain backdoor access to any information and data that the company carries, both on-shore and off-shore. “There are no relations between the company and the Chinese Army,” Jay Chen, CEO of Huawei in India, recently said.

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Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Peregrine » 02 Jul 2019 15:14

A chaotic anniversary

Hong Kong protesters storm the legislative council

Ceremonies to mark the territory’s handover to China are overshadowed by unrest

THE DAY began with an official celebration of the return of Hong Kong to China on July 1st. It ended in the ransacking of a government building and tear gas. The televised chaos, including scenes of protesters violently smashing their way into and trashing the Legislative Council building, where some displayed the British and colonial-era flags, represent the latest test for Carrie Lam, the chief executive of Hong Kong, and for Xi Jinping, her ultimate boss in Beijing.

A wave of massive protests in recent weeks has left them searching for how best to respond to the demands of citizens of Hong Kong, who fear that their freedoms are being whittled away under Chinese rule. Opposition has been galvanised, in particular, by a bill that would make it possible for people accused of crimes in mainland China to be sent there to face trial.

On June 15th Ms Lam had tried to appease protesters by postponing consideration of the bill. But protesters have called for it to be withdrawn entirely. Many have also called on Ms Lam to resign. In response Hong Kong leaders have tried thus far a mixture of patience, contrition and hard-nosed police tactics.

The day started with a new note of contrition from Ms Lam. The ceremony marking the 22nd anniversary of the handover was held at Hong Kong’s exhibition centre, where dignitaries watched a broadcast of the raising of the Chinese flag. In her remarks Ms Lam departed from the usual convention of opining on the progress of the city under Chinese rule, promising instead that her government would listen to the demands of the people and be more open. Meanwhile, on the streets outside, protesters were facing off with police. The contrast was stark. Television stations were using split screens to juxtapose the pomp of the ceremony with the running street battles outside.

At around 2pm thousands of protesters left Victoria Park as part of a police-sanctioned march through the city. This was the third huge peaceful march to take place in under a month. Whereas the others had ended at Tamar Park, home to Hong Kong’s central government offices and Legislative Council (which is known as Legco), this time organisers asked the crowds to continue westward past the government buildings. Most obeyed. But several thousand protesters, most of them younger, veered right to help form a swelling crowd around Legco.

Many wore masks to protect themselves from tear gas (and facial recognition technology). Some donned goggles to guard against pepper spray and helmets to protect from truncheons. Human supply chains passed along umbrellas, rolls of cling-film, cable-ties, pairs of scissors and bottles of water to the front line. Protesters uprooted metal fences from surrounding streets and dragged heavy bollards and bins to barricade the streets. Like all of the protests which have shaken the city in the past month, there was no obvious leader. Communications were shouted or conveyed by hand signals.

After being criticised for using excessive force, including rubber bullets, on protesters on June 12th, Hong Kong’s police force had become more passive. By the early evening protesters had smashed large glass doors and gained access to an atrium at Legco. Metal gates inside might have stopped them there, but within hours protestors had breached that defence as well. They swiftly made their way to the council chamber, a circular room where the city’s 70 lawmakers convene. Some smashed fittings and sprayed anti-government and pro-democracy graffiti on the walls while others read out their demands, which included universal suffrage for Hong Kong. Many regard the Hong Kong government as a puppet of central-government leaders in Beijing.

In this leaderless movement, decisions are made collectively on the hoof, or by emotional fiat of the moment. Apple Daily, a newspaper, reported that one man inside the chamber was offering protesters the choice of whether to stay or leave. Police said that they would arrest anyone who had gone inside the building. Shortly after midnight police in riot gear cleared the streets near Legco with tear gas. Protesters withdrew from the chamber before police pushed their way in.

Some commentators were incredulous that security services had allowed Legco to be stormed in the first place. But others mused that the violence and chaos played into the hands of the authorities.The protesters' display of Hong Kong’s old colonial flag in the chamber was a symbolic rebuke of the handover 22 years ago. That sort of provocation could help the government and pro-Beijing media cast protesters in a negative light.

On July 2nd Ms Lam held a 4am press conference in which she took a more defiant stance than in her handover speech, condemning the storming of Legco and declaring that authorities would "pursue any illegal acts" by protesters. But she also said she was willing to listen to the concerns voiced in the protests. Organisers say that more than 500,000 people participated in the protest march on July 1st. However authorities respond to the ransacking of Legco by several hundred protesters, they still must contend with millions of others in Hong Kong who have taken to the streets in recent weeks to register their dismay with the direction of their city under Chinese rule.

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Re: Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

Postby Singha » 02 Jul 2019 16:07

china will have to arrange a band baaja, baraatis and horses and welcome us into the NSG as a honoured new member AND drop its tone of why not pakis too be in NSG to be allowed anywhere near 5G trials. plus we need a deal of no giving submarines to TSP.

its better we encourage cheen to take over TSP as its province and take care of the feeding and care of the 300 million jihadis packed within that desertifying region. let them pay the bill.

they have done us no favours, to just be allowed in.


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