Understanding the US - Again

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Cain Marko
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Cain Marko » 23 Oct 2018 07:21

Rand Paul on Kashogi affair and INF treaty withdrawal. First time I've heard of any mention of Hindus in such a context by Western leaders.


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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 23 Oct 2018 10:26

turks have used this episode to rebuild relations with the US. the CIA chief is visiting ankara soon.

yesterday they released pics of a clumsy body double who wore the victims clothes and walked out of the back door and wandered around blue mosque to create a cctv video trail, but his face and hair is noticeably different and todays cctvs are high res.
then turks released skype call details to MBS close adviser.

for now the case is closed. the turks got what they wanted. mbs has pensioned off a few underlings and will repair his poor image(not that it matters to those who work with him)......

sauds might sign some deal with russia soon as a warning shot to the US deep state.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Oct 2018 15:23

Erdogan saying today that Saudi ko nanga kar dega...

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 23 Oct 2018 17:42

https://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/20 ... from-saudi
Khashoggi murder premeditated, Erdoğan says, demands answers from Saudi
DAILY SABAH WITH AGENCIES
ISTANBUL

President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan gave detailed information of Jamal Khashoggi's murder at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul and said the killing was premeditated, speaking at the ruling Justice and Development Party (AK Party) parliamentary group meeting on Tuesday.

Erdoğan confirmed that a 15-man Saudi team took part in the incident. "A Saudi team of three people landed in Istanbul one day before Khashoggi's killing and visited forests in Istanbul and Yalova," he said, adding that two other teams arrived at the consulate separately.

"Saudi consulate cameras were removed and all footage was deleted from hard drives. Camera footage shows Khashoggi did not leave the consulate," Erdoğan said. "This is a political murder," he added.

"Saudi Arabia denied the incident on Oct. 4. The consul general invited a Reuters reporter to the consulate, opening a few cupboards and claiming nothing happened."

Erdoğan said that he told the Saudi delegation dispatched for the investigation and King Salman that Consul General Mohammad al-Otaibi was negligent and incompetent. He was later recalled to Riyadh and was relieved of his duties.

"The murder took place inside the Saudi consulate but it should not be forgotten that it took place on Turkish soil. The Vienna convention does not allow the investigation of such murders to be prevented by diplomatic immunity," Erdoğan said, saying that he also expects the convention to be reviewed after this incident.

"Evidence shows Khashoggi's killing was a result of a planned operation. Why was the team assembled in Istanbul? Who gave the instruction for them to assemble? Why wasn't the consulate open to the investigation until many days later? Why were conflicting statements made? Where is the body of a person who was admittedly murdered? We need answers," he said.

He demanded Saudi Arabia reveal the identity of the "local cooperator" who purportedly took the body.

"I call on Saudi Arabia's government to permit Khashoggi killing suspects to be tried in Istanbul," Erdoğan added.

"My demand is that 18 people be tried in Istanbul," he said, adding that "all those who played a role in the murder" had to face punishment.

"To blame such an incident on a handful of security and intelligence members would not satisfy us or the international community," Erdoğan said.

"Saudi Arabia has taken an important step by admitting the murder. As of now we expect of them to openly bring to light those responsible — from the highest ranked to the lowest — and to bring them to justice," the Turkish president said.

Erdoğan expressed confidence that Saudi King Salman is cooperating with the investigation, saying he does not doubt the king's sincerity.

Separately, Erdoğan offered condolences to the family and relatives of Khashoggi.

Khashoggi, a columnist for The Washington Post, went missing after entering the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul on Oct. 2.

After denying knowledge of Khashoggi's whereabouts for two weeks, Saudi Arabia on Saturday said he was killed during a fight inside its Istanbul consulate.

His body has not been recovered, nor has Saudi Arabia explained its shifting narrative on what transpired.

On the day of Khashoggi's disappearance, 15 other Saudis, including several officials, arrived in Istanbul on two planes and visited the consulate while he was still inside, according to Turkish police sources. All of the identified individuals have since left Turkey.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Oct 2018 19:45

NSN reports: Shortly after issuing that statement, Sultan Erdogan went in to the Topkapi palace and took a selfie of himself with the holy relics of the prophet (PBUH) and a raised index finger and said 'suck that Saudi ladyboys!' and posted it on his insta

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby ramana » 23 Oct 2018 21:46

GD, basically Erdogan is fronting for the Iran alliance.

Step back and read the tea leaves.
Quo bono is MBS tarnished? the bad Persians!!!
Turkey is cross roads of Europe and Asia.
Not a ME power or influencer.


RD, US DP is shell shocked and hence the contradictory statements.

MBS was supposed to be knight in shining burka a turn away from antediluvian Al-Saudi family.
Also DS is till after DT via MBS.
Recall his dance with swords while on his KSA trip? He was replacing the Bushes as the US family member.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Oct 2018 23:03

not sure - erdo is twisting khashoggi to twist the US more than the Saudis, who will then twist the Saudis and maybe go easy on S400 sanctions, and extradite gulen...

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby UlanBatori » 24 Oct 2018 06:29

Putin compares US actions and calls it double standard. Rand Paul really lays it on, hain? Declares that MB should be "replaced". And quit supporting KSA's war in Yemen.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby sanjaykumar » 24 Oct 2018 07:03

I am still at the stage where one asks how a state can possibly conduct its affairs in another country without assuming that its chancellaries, embassies, consulates and safe houses are under surveillance.

What is it about Saudia that would render them immune to exposure? They are either naive or drunk on their oil money. So Saudia, Pakistan and Turkey all undergoing various stress tests. Could not be a better time for India to do some pushing.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby UlanBatori » 24 Oct 2018 07:19

Or, the guy was about to reveal something so bad that he had to be stopped/chopped at any cost. Operation suggested extreme urgency, not a smooth hit in a hotel in Gelf as is usually done. I cannot understand why he couldn't get asylum in Turkey if he wanted to marry Turkish bibi. Maybe because his son is still in KSA? But what could be so bad that ppl who know KSA don't go "yawn"?

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 24 Oct 2018 09:44

CNN

(CNN)President Donald Trump offered his most stinging indictment yet of a Saudi effort to silence a dissident journalist, calling the series of events that led to Jamal Khashoggi's death "the worst cover up ever."

"The cover up was one of the worst in the history of cover ups," Trump said from the Oval Office. "It's very simple."
Later Tuesday, Trump went further, calling the episode a "total fiasco."
The rebuke of Saudi Arabia's response to the death reflected Trump's growing frustration at the diplomatic crisis, which has thrust his foreign policy objectives into a harsh spotlight. It came amid an evolving administration response, which including dispatching the CIA director to Turkey to gather more details.
The President has become increasingly irritated by the fallout from Khashoggi's death, multiple sources who have heard him voice his frustration told CNN.
On Tuesday, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said the US will be revoking the visas of those who murdered the Washington Post journalist, and said that the administration has "identified at least some of the individuals responsible."
The top US diplomat said that the State Department is also working with the Treasury Department to apply human rights-related sanctions that includes the freezing of assets and a travel ban.
After Pompeo spoke, State Department spokesperson Heather Nauert announced that "21 Saudi suspects in the death of Jamal Khashoggi will have their visas revoked or be ineligible for a visa to enter the United States." Another State Department spokesperson told CNN that State wouldn't be identifying the individuals because "visa confidentiality, protected by U.S. law, prohibits us from discussing individual visa cases."

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Oct 2018 12:20

What I don't understand is why is this a US fight to begin with? Bhy eej cnn types baying for blood. What goes of their father, hain ji? Khashoggi is not US citizen and turkey is not US soil.

Why the takleef?

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby pankajs » 24 Oct 2018 12:41

^^
Me thinks to corner Orange head. Not only has every admin pandered to the Saudi's and gotten some kind of benefit but in this case damad shri seems to have some special line with the Barbarians.

Anything to throw at orange head even at the cost of long-term relationship. Very much the template being used in India against Modi .. willingness to cut the nose to spite the face.
Last edited by pankajs on 24 Oct 2018 12:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 24 Oct 2018 12:43

Beats me when usa is not bothered about even prince alwaleed bin talal , war in yemen, repression in bahrain

Khashoggis past is a mystery

Perhaps western deep state want prince nayef in the throne and mbs to step down and this is their way of creating a stick

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 24 Oct 2018 12:44

Or maybe deep state has splintered into two powerful factions

The bushies cia faction
Everyone else

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby pankajs » 24 Oct 2018 12:47

This one provided a opportunity to hit Orange head directly.

One can google for "Kushner MBS" and will get a lot of hits ... Here is one from Vanity Fair. Juts notice the headline.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/10 ... rder-trump
Jared Went from Running Point on the Mideast to Running”: With M.B.S. and the Khashoggi Murder, Trump Is in a Trap Kushner Helped Build

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Oct 2018 17:03

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/10 ... nt-caravan
Trump’s Lies Are Becoming Exponentially More Brazen
Holding court on the White House lawn Monday, Trump revealed new depths of contempt for objective reality—and offered a master class in how the most obvious lies destroy the very notion of truth, itself.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Gus » 24 Oct 2018 17:21

but don't worry. you are going to get a 10% tax cut.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Oct 2018 17:33

https://equitablegrowth.org/what-uptick ... -marriage/
What upticks in U.S. economic inequality and incarceration mean for marriage
Forty-six percent of unmarried Americans hope to someday marry, yet falling rates of marriage make their prospects of tying the knot increasingly dim. A large body of research underpins the debate over the causes of this decline, variously identifying women’s increasing economic independence, changing attitudes toward marriage, and increased use of effective contraception as potential causal factors. Perhaps the most prominent theory in sociology, however, argues that a decrease in the number of “marriageable men” leaves women without partners.

What makes a man “marriageable”? In addition to being a romantic arrangement and a family form, marriage is an economic institution. So, when men lack economic resources, they may be less likely to marry. Another factor that could affect marriageability is criminal justice involvement. When men are confined to jail or prison, or when a criminal record trails after them following release, they may become less attractive candidates for marriage.

Interestingly, two trends may have simultaneously depressed rates of marriage in the United States. First, economic well-being has declined for people at the middle and bottom of the income distribution. Second, incarceration has boomed during precisely the same period in which marriage rates have fallen. In 1969, average earnings for men without college diplomas were 14 percent higher than in 2013. In 1969, about 200,000 people were incarcerated, but in 2013, that number was closer to 1.4 million.

A 2018 paper in the Journal of Marriage and Family argues persuasively that the decrease in the number of marriageable men—due to economic hardship and incarceration—is a major factor driving the falling rates of marriage. The paper, written by Kristen Harknett of the University of California, San Francisco and Daniel Schneider and Matthew Stimpson of the University of California, Berkeley looks across five decades of data from the Panel Study of Income Dynamics to document and explain the downward trend in marriage among men and women from 1969 to 2013.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby vijayk » 24 Oct 2018 23:09

A_Gupta wrote:https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/10/donald-trump-brazen-lies-migrant-caravan
Trump’s Lies Are Becoming Exponentially More Brazen
Holding court on the White House lawn Monday, Trump revealed new depths of contempt for objective reality—and offered a master class in how the most obvious lies destroy the very notion of truth, itself.


Trump could not avoid questions about Jamal Khashoggi, the Saudi exile and former Washington Post columnist who was killed in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul earlier this month—but he could inflate the potential consequences of placing sanctions on his new friends in Riyadh. “I don't want to lose a million jobs, I don’t want to lose $110 billion,” he said, referring to an arms deal that has actually only earned $14.5 billion so far. “But it’s really $450 billion if you include other than military. So that’s very important. But we’re going to get to the bottom of it,” he added.

It’s not clear how the money at stake quadrupled in Trump’s mind, but then again, the president has a habit of inflating numbers when the mood strikes. On March 20, when the Saudi crown prince visited Washington, Trump claimed the arms deal would generate “over 40,000 jobs in the United States.” Last Saturday, that number jumped to 450,000 jobs, then to 500,000 jobs, then 600,000 jobs on Friday, and finally “over one million jobs” a few hours later, while visiting Luke Air Force Base in Arizona.


This guy is brazen because he can LIE and the media has no credibility. They spent it all by lying repeatedly, spreading rumours, going gaga over sex symbols like Truedeau or Hillary. If the media's lover boy/girl lies/rapes/craps/kills it's Oaky. Trump first eroded confidence in that media and now incessantly makes up lies. Even when he is caught with them, no one cares.

Look at Saudi saga ... Saudis killed 100K+ people in Yemen since Obama time. No one even bothered. Not NYT/Wapo/Gaurdian/BBC. One journalist killed. It'sa ll Trump's fault

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby ramana » 24 Oct 2018 23:28

Arun, Yes society is being destroyed or remade with the tax incentives and the economic disparity.
Its affecting Indian origin kids too.


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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Gyan » 25 Oct 2018 09:33

I think Gulen may have been funded by US & Saudi combine to topple Erodogand and Khashoggi was being groomed by Turkey against Saud family with a wink & nod from USA.

NOW. CIA Chief is going to Turkey to beg them to stop releasing details of MBS involvement. US & Kushner have chaddis in twist.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 25 Oct 2018 11:23

https://en.muraselon.com/2018/05/saudi- ... from-harm/

former crown prince muqrin now exiled and under asylum in germany calls on his uncles and brothers to do a palace coup.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 25 Oct 2018 11:24

ramana wrote:Arun, Yes society is being destroyed or remade with the tax incentives and the economic disparity.
Its affecting Indian origin kids too.


care to elaborate on the indian origin kids bit?

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Yagnasri » 25 Oct 2018 12:58



She should know better. She went to NBC from Fox and as such have a target on her back. In a new PC BS world of US, anything you say can be racist and even if you do not say anything then also it will be racist. :mrgreen:

Views which are just few years back are normal can be toxic in the eyes of PC gang now. The PC civil war in the US is good for us in the world otherwise there would have been wars and bombings for Gay Rights. Believe me it will happen soon. But bombs fall only on countries like India who are evil and not Barbaria.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby A_Gupta » 25 Oct 2018 17:26

... Saudis killed 100K+ people in Yemen since Obama time. No one even bothered. Not NYT/Wapo/Gaurdian/BBC. One journalist killed...


Not true. The press highlights Yemen; but the public does not respond. E.g., the NYTimes has had at least 25 stories on the devastation of the war in Yemen in the last three months.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Mort Walker » 25 Oct 2018 18:34

Singha wrote:
ramana wrote:Arun, Yes society is being destroyed or remade with the tax incentives and the economic disparity.
Its affecting Indian origin kids too.


care to elaborate on the indian origin kids bit?


I think he means the economic disparity is affecting the upper middle class. That affects Indian origin kids disproportionally since Indian origin family incomes are typically between $100-$200K.

I read an interesting article on CNBC money some time back suggesting comfortable middle income for families in north America is $107K x sq.root(# of family members). Also $1 in 2008 = $0.84 in 2018. Lots of implications for Indian origin people saving and planning for kids education and retirement.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Lalmohan » 25 Oct 2018 18:46

A_Gupta wrote:
... Saudis killed 100K+ people in Yemen since Obama time. No one even bothered. Not NYT/Wapo/Gaurdian/BBC. One journalist killed...


Not true. The press highlights Yemen; but the public does not respond. E.g., the NYTimes has had at least 25 stories on the devastation of the war in Yemen in the last three months.


there is indeed very steady, detailed and graphic reporting on yemen and there has been for sometime, clearly implicating Saudis, UAE and US/UK (technical support) in the indiscriminate bombing of civilians and other grim consequences of war. there really has been no take up in the political classes and the general public doesn't understand/care. it probably comes under the category of 'oh... I guess someone is bombing the terrorists so it must be ok'

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Lalmohan » 25 Oct 2018 18:48

mortji - an NRI amreeki friend tells me that many like him are looking to trump to save him/them from the Hispanics and blacks, who would otherwise devour them. what do you make of that line of thought?

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 25 Oct 2018 19:00

smells like those 15 will be thrown under the bus by extradition to turkey or long jail terms and Gen Asiri pensioned off. so much for loyalty to MBS

CNN -

Khashoggi killing was premeditated, Saudi attorney general says
By Laura Smith-Spark and Hamdi Alkhshali, CNN

Updated 1153 GMT (1953 HKT) October 25, 2018
jamal khashoggi carrera censura corte real principe mohammed bin salman periodista obituario pkg_00034714

(CNN)The killing of the Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi in Saudi Arabia's Istanbul consulate was premeditated, the country's attorney general said Thursday.

According to the statement posted by the Saudi state news agency, the latest evolution in the official version of events surrounding Khashoggi's death came after new information was received from Turkish investigators.

"The public prosecution received information from the Turkish side through the Joint Working Group between the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the Turkish Republic, indicating that the suspects in Khashoggi's case premeditated their crime," Attorney General Shaikh Suood bin Abdullah Al Mo'jab said.

:((


"The public prosecution continues its investigations with the accused in accordance with the latest investigation results to reach the facts, God willing, and complete the course of justice."

The development comes as CIA director Gina Haspel is set to brief US President Donald Trump on the investigation into Khashoggi's death.
Haspel traveled to Turkey on Monday, apparently to assess information the Turks have collected on Khashoggi's killing inside the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul. The Washington Post reported Wednesday that Haspel listened to audio purportedly of his interrogation and murder while she was in Turkey. Trump also said the US has sent officials to Saudi Arabia to get more information on the killing, which has spiraled into a crisis.
Turkish investigators continue to hunt for clues to the whereabouts of Khashoggi's body.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 25 Oct 2018 19:05

Gulen ji will be pleased to know the US goes to great lengths for its assets.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby vera_k » 25 Oct 2018 19:15

Lalmohan wrote:mortji - an NRI amreeki friend tells me that many like him are looking to trump to save him/them from the Hispanics and blacks, who would otherwise devour them. what do you make of that line of thought?


That friend is not alone :!: Take this case for a public example. Not those many NRI students have a legacy or can afford to build Harvard a building to counter intentional handicapping.
Asian-Americans should be angry about allegations against Harvard

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby disha » 25 Oct 2018 20:32

A_Gupta wrote:
... Saudis killed 100K+ people in Yemen since Obama time. No one even bothered. Not NYT/Wapo/Gaurdian/BBC. One journalist killed...


Not true. The press highlights Yemen; but the public does not respond. E.g., the NYTimes has had at least 25 stories on the devastation of the war in Yemen in the last three months.


And in last three months how many stories on Trump’s farts?

American public know about S. Barbaria & Yemen & Libya & ISIS., and for them if the entire gelf (mideast) goes into blackhole they would care less. One less problem.

Only good thing about khassogi afair is that calling S Barbaria as such is PC

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby ramana » 25 Oct 2018 21:16

GD, Mort has explained.
Basically the second generation is delaying family creation due to debt and high cost of living.
LM, Can you elaborate on the Amreeki comment.

Cain Marko think of the INF treaty withdrawal this way.

Slowly the strategic arms treaties that ushered stability in Cold War are being dismantled as they have served their purpose.
INF treaty was the precursor to ending Cold War in 1988.

NAFTA of 1990s is re-neogtiated.
Now bi-lateral trade treaties going on.

Climate control treaties also being undone.

In retaliation could have changes to financial agreements.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Mort Walker » 25 Oct 2018 22:01

Lalmohan wrote:mortji - an NRI amreeki friend tells me that many like him are looking to trump to save him/them from the Hispanics and blacks, who would otherwise devour them. what do you make of that line of thought?


DT is going to throw will throw all non white people under the bus if the economic situation deteriorates. But that hasn’t happened. Yet. Partly because some manufacturing is coming back to the US and corporate profits are higher which means good companies reinvest into personnel and company infrastructure. By the time he does throw Indians under the bus, his term will be over and we’ll be 2nd or 3rd in line after the Hispanics.

Blacks and Hispanics are the “designated” minorities. Some in these communities regard Indians as their competition. I’ve had most black engineers be very good to me professionally, then find out when answering to white managers, attempt to throw you under the bus.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby A_Gupta » 25 Oct 2018 22:29

America is not, strictly speaking, a center-right or center-left nation. Rather, it remains the nation of the Dixiecrats, in which the majority’s desire for equal opportunity and a robust welfare state is mediated by the addiction of a large chunk of the polity to racial hierarchy. It is no coincidence that the Democratic Party’s dominant period in American history coincided with its representation of both warring impulses, and ended when it chose one over the other.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... cs/573991/

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby habal » 26 Oct 2018 07:33

As an annexure to understanding the US thread, I propose a thread of US foreign policy failures:

1. regime change in Syria
2. drone attacks on khmymim base in tartous
3. regime change in turkey using fatullahg.
4. afghan settlement

Iraq, libya etc are not foreign policy failures because what if the unofficial, undeclared goal was to replace stable regimes with destabilization.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 26 Oct 2018 08:21

a very large NATO exercise is on in the GIUK gap and norway involving apart from large ground and air element, a CVN operating north of the arctic circle for the first time in 30 years. the old ASW bases like Keflavik iceland have been activated and stood up.

russia has commissioned her 4th Borei and 4 more are building. likewise the Yasens are nearing their end of production run(2 in service, 5 building) as Yasen-2 and next generation Husky class is ready for production. the Borei's frequently test fire Bulava from the barents or arctic sea and hit the kura test range in kamchatka.

here a borei releases a salvo of 4 . distinct rocket motor dry growl.


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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby UlanBatori » 26 Oct 2018 10:27

What do u make of the stream of dud bums sent to donkey netas? Not a single one went off, all were in packages that demonstrated everything in the DO NOT OPEN, MAY CONTAIN A BOMB warnings. See Enn Enn got its undies in a knot when some rabid elephant suggested that these were "false flag attacks" to get votes for donkeys.


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