Understanding the US - Again

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 04 Dec 2018 18:48

who is the che guevara type leader with topi on extreme left?
everyone except DT seems to be piously covering their gonads lest the siberian brown bear take a swipe and tear off.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Lalmohan » 04 Dec 2018 19:12

^^^ a north African dignitary - loyal troops from the empire who rallied to the tricolour in its time of need (and who were later thrown onto the rubbish heap like all other subjugated peoples)

ramana - quite apart from the soy bean farmers, the autoworkers are a bit distressed too. GM and Ford both announced that the tariffs have written off $1B off profits this year, and both have announced big restructuring plans, with GM talking of 14,000 jobs in the heartland

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby ramana » 05 Dec 2018 02:21

Gus wrote:heh..singha..check this for expressions from merkel macron and dj

Image



This picture tells a lot.
Its the wariness of the Western Europe that the bear is coming after them.
And also explains some unsaid things about Ukraine.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby ramana » 05 Dec 2018 02:23

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ a north African dignitary - loyal troops from the empire who rallied to the tricolour in its time of need (and who were later thrown onto the rubbish heap like all other subjugated peoples)

ramana - quite apart from the soy bean farmers, the autoworkers are a bit distressed too. GM and Ford both announced that the tariffs have written off $1B off profits this year, and both have announced big restructuring plans, with GM talking of 14,000 jobs in the heartland


GM management has been quite deplorable and a good case study in the Vatican of Business studies Harvard.
They bought back $5B in shares which are now worthless.
That CEO should be eased out for mismanagement.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Suraj » 05 Dec 2018 03:54

Paul wrote:He said India is cursed by Geography while China is historically blessed.

You can't be serious. The Chinese have by a long distance the worst history of both external invasion and internal cataclysmic warfare. They have half of the top 10 cornered in the list of worst wars by casualities, not to mention substantial casualties in both WW2 and the Mongol Conquests - the Yuan Dynasty was the Mongols in charge. The end of pretty much every one of the last 5-6 dynasties is followed by decades of bloodshed where they lost ~5% of their population, each time around.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 05 Dec 2018 08:13

And they face desertification issue in north and less arable land than india. They are desperate to somehow divert all of tibetan water headwaters of brahmaputra irrawady salween to their own farmlands but the curse of geography means most snow in himalaya falls on our side, tibet is a cold desert and both sw and ne monsoon are our jagir to enjoy :mrgreen:

looks like a clip from star wars - yellow dust storm in peking
https://www.chinasmack.com/some-beijing ... orm-photos

a good layer of topsoil takes 1000s of years of form from organic matter. just watering the inert tibetan sands is unlikely to make it bloom

and on the east, admiral Brar sahib with his huge networked assets is hemming them in...with japan and soko scampering around not paying tribute.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Dec 2018 09:12

Merkel and Putin are good friends. Apparently both speak German and Russian and have comparable educations. Le Frogue looks petrified, and L'Ourangutan is delighted to see an old friend.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Gus » 05 Dec 2018 14:13

so..before Mueller report comes out...what do you think?

1. no collusion, total witchhunt
2. collusion, he's a traitor
3. collusion, so what. better than crooked.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Yagnasri » 05 Dec 2018 16:18

I don't see any collusion as such. In fact I strongly think that British Secret Service sided with Billary in this. No one from outside the US will take risk of supporting DT who at that time unlikely to win and also looked like a total crackpot. No one in their right mind wanted such person when they know they can easily "manage" Billary with money.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Dec 2018 18:42

Collusion which brought The Truth About Billary-SyrianGenocide-LibyanGenocide-ISIS in front of the voters, just in time. Think about it: otherwise America would be under sharia by now, courtesy of Sultana Hu-Ummah (wasn't that her naam?) Maybe Mueller will recommend Putin and Assange for the Congressional Medal Of Freedom. Manafort for Pulitzer Prize. The former freebiscuit-now-wouldB-MovieStar for a 10-year tour of Fort L.

This is where one should revisit all those novels like "R-Document" where the book ends with the crooks exposed - just b4 they plan to take over America. THIS is the real aftermath: the crooks go about their crookedness, those who risked all to investigate, ***THINK*** and outsmart them, are hounded.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 05 Dec 2018 19:18

IMO there's not a lot of "Understanding the US" going on in this thread. Some people write things here, and they often go too far and one cannot reasonably tell when they're being facetious or sarcastic, or when they actually believe the bunk they are typing. Truly. Perhaps this is done in jest and I just don't get the joke. For sure: It makes me less inclined to read BRF. I just don't have the time to tease-out the fact from fiction.

Yagnasri wrote:I don't see any collusion as such........ <snip>



Everyone knows the Trump camp colluded. At the RNC Convention, when they were forming the 'Republican Platform' alongside all of the other primary candidates -- the *one* (1) thing Trumpsters pressed-for and got, was dropping a platform plank that would have funded lethal defense equipment for the Ukrainians, who were up-against the Russians at the time (and still are). If collusion requires a 'quid pro quo' (and that's legally debatable since attempted collusion and collusion should be materially the same thing according to legal precedent); this maneuver establishes concretely, collusion.

This is ipso facto collusion.

Unless, you think there was a domestic lobby for this? :rotfl: (No joke: I think many here are willfully blind.)

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby ramana » 05 Dec 2018 23:56

Ravi, BO tried very hard to create a confrontation with Russia via Ukraine to justify transfer of funds to MIC.
Recall Vicky Nooland, Sochi Olympics no show etc.

This is folly to get into a slug fest with the Russians as they have the nooks and return to the Cold War.
DT did not want the fait accompli and hence dropped the platform demand.
After election he has funded the MIC more than they hoped for.
Only politicians are stuck on the collusion.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Lisa » 06 Dec 2018 00:29

Singha wrote:who is the che guevara type leader with topi on extreme left?
everyone except DT seems to be piously covering their gonads lest the siberian brown bear take a swipe and tear off.


King of Morocco

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Mort Walker » 06 Dec 2018 00:53

Gus wrote:so..before Mueller report comes out...what do you think?

1. no collusion, total witchhunt
2. collusion, he's a traitor
3. collusion, so what. better than crooked.


It would be No. 3. Plain and simple. UB's response is absolutely right. And Ramana's response is absolutely right too as this is entirely political in terms of prosecution.

1. Mueller mishandled 9/11 and its aftermath. He also mishandled the whole Anthrax attack in late 2001. He also gave a clean chit to Pakis on attacking US consulate in Kolkata in 2002. Mueller is incompetent as they come and is a product of the reigning political class.
2. Take a look at campaigns of previous candidates and what they've done and not just of DT. I think many here simply won't do that and close their eyes to what is going on. Too many people on BRF who are happy to kiss the rear-ends of the donkeys.
3. DT's fascination with Russia, and his supporters, has more to do with White Christian Nationalism. Russia is a WN country and is unsafe for colored peoples including Indians (sorry Philip & Austin). They would like the US to be that way too, but can't or would certainly like to move it in that direction. However the time frame to do this is too small and most of these racists are simply incompetent ruffians.

India and can work with any POTUS regardless of party, but needs DT to stay in until Jan. 2025 to rattle the Eurotrash and Chinese on trade and some saber rattling with the Chinese. This will give enough time to let India become at least a $5T economy by the end of 2024 and develop strategically. Of course there are constant pitfalls that can mess things up, but so far I'm cautiously optimistic the way the Modi government has handled this.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 06 Dec 2018 02:37

ramana wrote:Ravi, BO tried very hard to create a confrontation with Russia via Ukraine to justify transfer of funds to MIC.
Recall Vicky Nooland, Sochi Olympics no show etc.

This is folly to get into a slug fest with the Russians as they have the nooks and return to the Cold War.... <snip>


I wasn't trying to critique the strategy; I was only pointing-out that the impetus for the move (dropping Ukrainian weapons supply plans) arose from Russian quarters, not American offices; and as such, is de facto collusion.

Whether or not history will judge how the West stoked this dream of 'separatism' from "Mother Russia", is besides the point.

Legalistically speaking; the delivery of this 'ask' sealed the deal as far as collusion is concerned. That's the full quid pro quo. (You're not going to try to tell me the Trump Tower meeting was really about adoption, are you?)


FWIW, I disagree that it would benefit India to have DJT in office for a full eight years. He is easily bought or otherwise compromised; and Indian pockets for such purposes aren't as deep as Saudi's or China's (both of whom would ask for things that would not accrue to the advantage of India). I suppose time shall tell.

One thing is certain: India is projected to be one of the most 'climate impacted' countries; and DJT's full-speed ahead on fossil fuels, will not work to anyone's long term advantage. (NB: Trudeau is the same as Trump, where fossil fuels are concerned.)



Also...... this was funny, but I didn't know where else to post it...




Rudy Giuliani’s typo became an anti-Trump message. He blamed Twitter, but this Atlanta man pranked him
By Allyson ChiuThe Washington Post
Wed., Dec. 5, 2018


<snip>

It all started around 6 p.m. Friday, when Velazquez came across the random hyperlink in Giuliani’s tweet. Giuliani had unintentionally left out a space between a period and the beginning of another sentence that began with “In,” which also happens to be the internet country code for India.

After clicking on the link, Velazquez said he realized no one owned the domain.

“Without thinking, I went and purchased the domain and then I thought, ‘I could literally put whatever I want up and he would either have to delete the tweet or leave it up because you can’t edit a tweet,’” he said.

<snip>

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Dec 2018 03:29

Seems like the work of a true jeenius. And this is relevant - how? The real hyperlink is this.
I am sure Mueller will file something - like our dear friend Pleat Bhalala did against the Indian diplo. Just to show he's Tough Stuff and to appear less of an idiot than Starr who spent $50M and achieved absolutely nothing. But in the end, come 2020 elephants with long memories are going to come out and kick the donkeys again.

Speaking of that... now the Gorgia Recounts are over. The Florida Recounts are over. {YAWN!!} Once again, UBCN points out with all due respect to all the Experts, our Pre-Poll Predictions turned out absolutely accurate. Biss on us at ur peri, hain? :evil:

OK, a few seats short in the House, but dead-on in the Gorgia Guvnor case. The present House setup is a perfect setup to kick donkey asses (sorry for the redundancy) in 2 years' time.
You just DON'T put up a hate ad showing the Fires of He** in SoBaptist country and expect to win votes. That right there was the margin.
Amazingly, Newt Gingrich's old seat, rock-solid elephant country, has now been captured by a donkey bibi. I think the incumbent Karen Handel, former Gorgia SoS herself, just got plain tired. Sure did not campaign.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Mort Walker » 06 Dec 2018 05:46

Ravi,

The full speed ahead on fossil fuel started under Obama administration to make the US an exporter of oil and gas and help break the influence of OPEC. Shale oil and gas benefitted the most under the Obama administration. DT’s policy is the continuation of such. Credit here goes to Obama. Coal for all of DT’s support will make no difference as coal is simply not economically viable compared to natural gas.

India’s climate change is affected greatly by pollution. Cheaper natural gas for power will make a signifcant improvement in India’s climate. It will provide the most energy dense fuel for power production outside of nuclear.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 06 Dec 2018 09:05

Huawei founders daughter the cfo has been arrested in canada and faces extradition to usa

Big move by murican deep state

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Dec 2018 10:41

What do peepuls think of 2020 candidates from donkey side... I've heard murmers about everyone from killary,, komal Kamal, and injun Warren to beta rookie, boodha Sanders and classy Tulsi wanting to get in on the action.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 06 Dec 2018 10:46

the cupboard is bare if thats your panel.
some rookie I think, and tulsi no no she is probably too dharmic for this.

donkey or hathi, one has to follow the rules and parameters set by the deep state.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby habal » 06 Dec 2018 10:58

UlanBatori wrote: Pleat Bhalala


paleet

I just remembered this word in punjabi which rhymes with pleet, and it is usually used as a swear word.

palīta, paleetaa - meaning in English
Interpreted your input "paleet" as "ਪਲੀਤ".

palīta, paleeta
Meanings of ਪਲੀਤ in English

adjective

defiled
filthy
polluted
unclean

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 06 Dec 2018 11:22

arresting the daughter of the most powerful and global chinese MNC after lenovo, and humiliating her with extradition etc is like putting hands in "madhumakkhee ka chhatta". they could have arrested any other huawei exec but she was selected as being a woman and the daughter of the ceo.

as with the khobragade episode , this is a push test, to see how far the opposite party with push back. to its credit the UPA top brass did make life somewhat difficult for the murican consulate here, by enforcing the unenforced rules which were in the book, but they stopped short of arresting some murican diplomat for nashakhori/randibaazi/bribery/espionage etc which I am sure some candidates could be found and are on updated files.

Peking has to respond to show its credibility as the P2.

I have seen a video where a murican diplomat identified perhaps as undercover was wrestled to the ground right on the doorstep of the moscow consulate and roughed up by a "guard" who was hiding in a cabin then decamped. the big boys play by their own rules.


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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Gus » 06 Dec 2018 12:20

ramana wrote:DT did not want the fait accompli and hence dropped the platform demand.


You are right. moscow trump tower, russian money via Deutsche bank over the years have nothing to do with this. And this has nothing to do with Manafort as well.

DT came up with this foreign policy decision, after consulting with experts like George Papadopoulos and Carger Page, but the highly conflicted Mueller has threatened them and Papadapa has pled guilty as well.

But good thing is, they were only involved very little. DT did not even know them.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Lalmohan » 06 Dec 2018 18:40

Huawei are being banned all over the place... small matter of putting in eavesdropping features into their kit, so that they can listen in to everyone
[standing by for the torn shirt/ open fly protests to come in]

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 06 Dec 2018 18:44

actually under what grounds was she arrested in canada? sure huawei might have broken US sanctions on Noko/Iran but for that US can arrest people of a 3rd country for violating its sanction? sanctioning huawei is one thing, arresting its exec another. if you recall one VW exec was arrested in Miami in the wake of the emission scandal. after that VW top brass stopped visiting the US for any reason.

what if tomorrow the GM of SBI is picked up in london for india having trade deals with iran.

what charges will be put on her? imperial overreach that will backfire as it will just anger the chinese leadership. maybe thats the monkey trap - make them arrest a american CEO and hoped for exodus of american manufacturing back to mainland ? :idea:

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Lalmohan » 06 Dec 2018 18:48

the grounds quoted are 'criminal charges in relation to an attempt to sell equipment to iran in violation of sanctions' - and yes the GM of SBI could indeed be picked up on similar grounds

incidentally, the US recently forced 3 UK traders (including one desi) to stand trial for sample charges of misconduct against their firms - all were facing big sentences for things that were largely outside their control. all three were aquitted but it was clearly a terrifying prospect for them

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 06 Dec 2018 18:56

that charge would be valid if she were a US citizen. else its just a show of naked power and our officials too could fall victim to this.

US puts sanction on countryA
companyX belonging to china sells to countryA
at best US can stop companyX from operating in US and its all-lies (already done)

there is no UN sanctions on iran to hide under here as a fig leaf of legality "enforcing UN mandate". EU is trading with iran and ignores the US diktats.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 06 Dec 2018 18:59

the VW case was different as the executive was based in michigan
https://www.heraldtribune.com/news/2017 ... el-scandal

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Lalmohan » 06 Dec 2018 19:02

the german based exec were also worried about being arrested if they went to the US
its a thing with the US... they believe their laws apply universally

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Gus » 06 Dec 2018 21:14

They can believe that but why are Canadians playing along and acting as Massa police Dept.

Same Canadians will host Khali terrorists and known killers.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Lalmohan » 06 Dec 2018 21:31

why does the UK send its citizens to the US to face spurious charges...
one does as one is told by the emperor in rome

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Skanda » 07 Dec 2018 01:27

Singha wrote:actually under what grounds was she arrested in canada? sure huawei might have broken US sanctions on Noko/Iran but for that US can arrest people of a 3rd country for violating its sanction? sanctioning huawei is one thing, arresting its exec another. if you recall one VW exec was arrested in Miami in the wake of the emission scandal. after that VW top brass stopped visiting the US for any reason.


Maybe I am confused, but isnt that what India did to Christain Michael. He was not a citizen of India but was wanted for crimes committed under Indian law. India filed for his extradition.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 07 Dec 2018 09:02

India put out a red corner notice on him via interpol

Also there was a case on him in our court and investigating agencies had some charge sheet on him

No such thing exists on huawei in a US court, let alone personally on their cfo. And if a case exists pls post it here

So far a week after arrest where is the charge sheet ?

If a case exists a company will get lawyers to defend itself

Its just the emperor of rome meme nothing legal

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 07 Dec 2018 09:05

What if they arrest and extradite ratan tata or anand mahindra in london badef on their cos working on indian strategic projects / involved with indo russian projects ?

Khobragade type case was not supposed to happen among “friends” right?

There will always be factions seeking to provoke and preet bhalala types to do their bidding

We need to act very sternly to such stunts

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby KrishnaK » 07 Dec 2018 12:25

Singha wrote:India put out a red corner notice on him via interpol

Also there was a case on him in our court and investigating agencies had some charge sheet on him

No such thing exists on huawei in a US court, let alone personally on their cfo. And if a case exists pls post it here

So far a week after arrest where is the charge sheet ?

If a case exists a company will get lawyers to defend itself

Its just the emperor of rome meme nothing legal


U.S. Subpoenas Huawei Over Its Dealings in Iran and North Korea

The United States Commerce Department is demanding that the company, based in the south China city of Shenzhen, turn over all information regarding the export or re-export of American technology to Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan and Syria, according to a subpoena sent to Huawei and viewed by The New York Times. The subpoena is part of an investigation into whether Huawei broke United States export controls.


Much like the Khobragade case, this sort of thing was been swept under the rug previously, until the enforcement policy suddenly changed. It's not a simple case of violating US domestic law by some foreign entity. It is likely to be a case of procuring US tech under false pretenses for subsequent re-export. Canadian courts (not their govt) are not likely to simply rubber stamp some arrest and extradition request, no matter whom the request comes from. Govt. legal departments have gone through this and found it tenable.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Dec 2018 19:46

I wonder if this is what it appears to be: Is Ms. Huawei going to get a FreeBiscuits IdentiKit I wonder. Interesting to watch reaction from Beijing.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Kati » 07 Dec 2018 19:56

Huawei arrest stokes fears of China reprisals among America Inc executives
Reuters Reuters 2 hours 39 minutes ago
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FILE PHOTO: The Huawei logo is pictured outside their research facility in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, December 6, 2018. REUTERS/Chris Wattie/File Photo
By Fanny Potkin and Adam Jourdan

HONG KONG/SHANGHAI (Reuters) - At a closed-door security meeting of U.S. companies in Singapore on Thursday, one topic was high on the agenda: the arrest of a top executive at Chinese tech giant Huawei [HWT.UL] and the potential backlash on American firms operating in China.

Officials from major U.S. companies who attended the event, a scheduled meeting of the local chapter of the U.S. Department of State's Overseas Security Advisory Council (OSAC), voiced concerns about retaliation against American firms and their executives, two people with knowledge of the meeting said.

A number of attendees said their companies were considering restricting non-essential China travel and looking to move meetings outside the country, one of the people added.

Security executives for companies including Walt Disney Co, Alphabet Inc's Google, Facebook Inc, and PayPal Holdings Inc attended the meeting, according to the sources and a LinkedIn posting by one of the attendees.

The companies all declined to comment or did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

The discussions at the meeting underscore concerns rippling through U.S. businesses in the world's second largest economy, already facing a delicate balancing act amid a tense trade standoff between Washington and Beijing.

The formal agenda for the meeting, held at Google's Asia-Pacific headquarters in Singapore, included presentations on economic crime and terrorism in the region. OSAC promotes "security cooperation between American private sector interests worldwide and the U.S. Department of State," according to its website.

But conversation soon turned to possible risks in China prompted by the arrest of Meng Wanzhou, the chief financial officer and "heiress" of Chinese telecom network equipment giant Huawei Technologies Co Ltd, who was detained in Canada on Dec. 1. The news of the arrest was made public on Wednesday.

Meng, the daughter of Huawei's founder, was held at Washington's request as part of a U.S. investigation of an alleged scheme to use the global banking system to evade U.S. sanctions against Iran, people familiar with the probe said.

The arrest has roiled global markets amid fears that it could further inflame the Sino-U.S. trade row.

Risk consultants and analysts said that the arrest could prompt Beijing to retaliate in some form.

"This will pressure a lot of Chinese officials to look strong in this dispute," said Nick Marro, Hong Kong-based Asia analyst at the Economist Intelligence Unit, who added that technology companies were particularly at risk.

"This could mean either taking a stronger stance on trade negotiations, or taking a stronger stance on U.S. tech firms in China right now."

Asked whether there would be any retaliation against any foreign executives in China, Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang said on Friday China has always protected the lawful rights of foreigners in China in accordance with the law.

"Of course in China they should respect China's laws and rules."

EARLY CHRISTMAS TRIP?

OSAC says it is made up of 34 private and public sector member organizations. It lists its events on its website, including the Dec. 6 meeting in Singapore. There was also a separate listed meeting held in Shanghai on the same day.

Prashant Nayak, Disney's Asia Pacific director of corporate security, posted about the Singapore meeting on LinkedIn, tagging other executives at Google, Facebook, Amazon.com Inc, Marriot International Inc, Microsoft Corp and others. Nayak did not respond to a LinkedIn message seeking further comment.

The second person with knowledge of the event said the Huawei arrest and potential fallout was a hot topic at the meeting.

A senior diplomat from the U.S. embassy in Singapore gave opening remarks, but an embassy spokesperson said she left before any discussion.

Asia-based risk consultants said they had seen a rise in the number of clients asking about the Huawei issue and potential concerns related to the impact on U.S. firms in China.

Jakob Korslund, CEO of Singapore-based consultancy Deutsche Risk, said his firm had received a number of enquiries in the last two days asking about the risks of travelling to China.

"For a few we have advised postponing trips that were not time critical, telling clients to wait for the next few weeks to see the situation," he said.

James McGregor, chairman of APCO Worldwide's Greater China region, said companies would likely err on the side of not sending executives to China for the time being.

"It's all about avoiding risk, because what do you do if somebody is arrested?" he told Reuters, adding anxiety was also spreading among executives already in China.

"People are joking about it a little bit and saying 'maybe I should take an early Christmas trip home'."

(Reporting by Fanny Potkin in HONG KONG and Adam Jourdan in SHANGHAI; Additional reporting by John Ruwitch, Josh Horwitz and Brenda Goh in Shanghai, Cate Cadell in Beijing and Fathin Ungku in Singapore; Editing by Jonathan Weber and Muralikumar Anantharaman)

Lalmohan
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Lalmohan » 07 Dec 2018 20:45

so is this DT's genius at work or Rogue State run amok?

UlanBatori
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Dec 2018 21:42

Isn't Canadastan the one heading for retaliation?

Singha
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Singha » 07 Dec 2018 22:23

there must be plenty of gora charasi/bribers/randybaaz expats living in china who can be booked if cheen cares to. they would have detailed dossiers on all such people for industrial espionage anyway.

this lot will be looking to tiptoe away on early xmas vacations.


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