Understanding the US - Again

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darshan
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby darshan » 05 Jun 2020 21:35

Some white flights also happen due to cashing in on increased property values and want to have lower property taxes by moving to the next door rural county. Many flights are positive money flows. Flee to cheaper distant areas that they eventually end up selling at profit when fleeing to the next hop. Profit plus get to live life they like to away from seeing colored people.

_________________________________________
Similar tactics as seen in India where liberals go after anyone wearing non Islamic items.


O.C. Sheriff’s officials investigating deputy seen wearing extremist insignia at Costa Mesa protest
https://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pil ... sa-protest

Orange County Sheriff’s Department officials said Wednesday they were investigating an incident of a deputy who was seen at a demonstration in Costa Mesa Tuesday wearing an unauthorized insignia supporting the Three Percenters, a far-right militia organization.

The matter was brought to the attention of the Los Angeles chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-LA), which issued a release providing video footage of a deputy working outside the OC Fairgrounds during a peaceful protest.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby chetak » 05 Jun 2020 21:39

suddenly some morons say #BlackLivesMatter

dear anarchists--my God Lord Krishna is black/dark blue and loved by all Hindus

and you converted a dark mid-east jesus to white yankee one

so don't preach color to us.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Jay » 05 Jun 2020 22:29

chetak wrote:suddenly some morons say #BlackLivesMatter

dear anarchists--my God Lord Krishna is black/dark blue and loved by all Hindus

and you converted a dark mid-east jesus to white yankee one

so don't preach color to us.

Chetak ji, I get your point but I do not think anarchists give a hoot about jesus. On the other hand, its the evangelical trumptards that want their homeboy to be milky white.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Jay » 05 Jun 2020 22:33

darshan wrote:_________________________________________
Similar tactics as seen in India where liberals go after anyone wearing non Islamic items.




Disagree on this a little. The desi liberal gang goes after any display of Hindu identity, while this cop is wearing an explicitly white nationalist symbol. We need to make these differences count and noted explicitly. HIndu identity is inclusive and not hate unlike the "three percenter" white idealogy.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Suraj » 05 Jun 2020 22:58

Please stick to the topic instead of arguing about India / Hinduism / etc .

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby vishvak » 05 Jun 2020 23:04

..as Asians/Indians started dominating a neighborhood because they schools started becoming extremely competitive..

Do you mean Chinese and Indians to be generally precise.

However now that police dept is planned as public safety dept or something, not to disarm completely or partially but for real defence of people in general and not selectively, are people in general to be more safe or just enough (unless member of interested groups) and how is this going to be affecting people such as non-believers in ilhan Omar's district or similar and 'others' who are not particularly afro American or say islamic and not majority either.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby chetak » 05 Jun 2020 23:21

Jay wrote:
chetak wrote:suddenly some morons say #BlackLivesMatter

dear anarchists--my God Lord Krishna is black/dark blue and loved by all Hindus

and you converted a dark mid-east jesus to white yankee one

so don't preach color to us.

Chetak ji, I get your point but I do not think anarchists give a hoot about jesus. On the other hand, its the evangelical trumptards that want their homeboy to be milky white.



hasn't j been white for some centuries now

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Suraj » 05 Jun 2020 23:37

vishvak wrote:
..as Asians/Indians started dominating a neighborhood because they schools started becoming extremely competitive..

Do you mean Chinese and Indians to be generally precise.

However now that police dept is planned as public safety dept or something, not to disarm completely or partially but for real defence of people in general and not selectively, are people in general to be more safe or just enough (unless member of interested groups) and how is this going to be affecting people such as non-believers in ilhan Omar's district or similar and 'others' who are not particularly afro American or say islamic and not majority either.

... and Taiwanese, Koreans, Vietnamese and Japanese, in the Bay Area at least.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Mort Walker » 05 Jun 2020 23:56

Surajsan wrote:White flight also happens in the context of competition - here in the bay area, several neighborhoods saw white flight as Asians/Indians started dominating a neighborhood because they schools started becoming extremely competitive, e.g. Cupertino saw lots of white families move away to places like Walnut Creek or way out into Sacramento suburbs like Roseville.


Similar in Texas. Then Texas changed their laws for admission to the flagship universities, admission is based on high school rank, so the more remote suburbs saw improved schools.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby DavidD » 06 Jun 2020 01:29

Suraj wrote:
vishvak wrote:Do you mean Chinese and Indians to be generally precise.

However now that police dept is planned as public safety dept or something, not to disarm completely or partially but for real defence of people in general and not selectively, are people in general to be more safe or just enough (unless member of interested groups) and how is this going to be affecting people such as non-believers in ilhan Omar's district or similar and 'others' who are not particularly afro American or say islamic and not majority either.

... and Taiwanese, Koreans, Vietnamese and Japanese, in the Bay Area at least.


In San Ramone Asians/Indians have pretty much crowded out Whites too.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby darshan » 06 Jun 2020 02:02

My essential line at work when someone asks for my opinion about whether I support it or not. I don't support racism. Why do only black lives matter? What happened to other colored people? Why didn't they choose colored lives matter? There are plenty of examples of brown Hindu people not getting any social justice and victims of police brutality. Many police stations don't even bother to investigate murders of small business owners. In HR world, everyone stops the lip service after taking care of blacks, latinos, and LGBTQ. It's not like brown Hindu people aren't everyday subjected of various racism issues.

Actor Sara Ali Khan Trolled For Advocating “All Lives Matter” Instead Of #BlackLivesMatter On Social Media
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/actor-sar ... cial-media

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby darshan » 06 Jun 2020 02:32

Police Using Rubber Bullets On Protesters That Can Kill, Blind Or Maim For Life
https://khn.org/news/police-use-rubber- ... -for-life/
In cities across the country, police departments have attempted to quell unrest spurred by the death of George Floyd by firing rubber bullets into crowds, even though five decades of evidence shows such weapons can disable, disfigure and even kill.

California lawmakers promise to set rules for police use of rubber bullets amid George Floyd protests
https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... er-bullets
SACRAMENTO —
Alarmed at numerous reports that protesters in recent days have been seriously injured by rubber bullets fired by police officers, a group of California lawmakers said Thursday they will introduce legislation to set clear standards for when the projectiles can be used.

A Dallas man lost his eye in a protest. Now he wants Police Chief Hall to find those responsible
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2020/06 ... sponsible/

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Jay » 06 Jun 2020 03:15

darshan wrote:My essential line at work when someone asks for my opinion about whether I support it or not. I don't support racism. Why do only black lives matter? What happened to other colored people? Why didn't they choose colored lives matter? There are plenty of examples of brown Hindu people not getting any social justice and victims of police brutality. Many police stations don't even bother to investigate murders of small business owners. In HR world, everyone stops the lip service after taking care of blacks, latinos, and LGBTQ. It's not like brown Hindu people aren't everyday subjected of various racism issues.


I do not know if some people deliberately ignore the message are if some simply do not get it, even the educated ones.

Black Lives Matter does not mean 'only black lives matter', it means 'black lives matter TOO'. When someone says they are doing a charity run for Breast cancer, that does not mean they think all other cancers are non existent or they do not care about. In US context, the word "colored" is explicitly used for Black people. Within the US legal context, Black people are treated worse then any other race and it has been going on for centuries. If you think there are "plenty" of cases of police brutality against Hindus, launch "Hindu Lives Matter", no one is stopping you. BTW, Black lives matter organisation included police/judicial violence against all people of color. You equating Black Lives Matter with with struggles of us Hindus in US is irrelevant, and does/will not get your point across because its false equivalency and undermines the struggles US Hindus face.

To explain why Black Lives Matter movement came to relevance, look into the stats below. No other group within US has to go through this hence the name for the movement. Below are some of the links and points I have bookmarked while trying to learn more about racism and its effects in US. Because of space/time, I am not citing everything, but most of the below stats can be verified from US DOJ papers authored by multiple authors.

Blacks are 700% more likely to be exonerated by the Innocence Project (and others) for murder.

-50% more likely to be stopped for “no reason” while driving

-250% more likely to be searched without consent (whites 30% more likely to have contraband)

-50% more likely to be arrested vs warned

-15% more likely to be offered a plea deal with prison time (vs community service time served etc)

-20% more likely to be convicted

-serve 10% longer sentences.

All studies behind these #’s control for what you’d expect- geography income priors circumstances of arrest specific charges etc.

https://static.prisonpolicy.org/scans/ccj/LowLevelOffenseStudyFinal11.09.04.pdf

https://www.twincities.com/2016/07/08/data-dive-racial-disparities-in-minnesota-traffic-stops/

http://digital.vpr.net/post/study-spotlights-dangers-driving-while-black-and-brown-vermont#stream/0

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2014/09/09/you-really-can-get-pulled-over-for-driving-while-black-federal-statistics-show/

https://www.twincities.com/2016/07/13/st-anthony-police-data-shows-disproportionate-arrests-of-blacks/

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/studies-racial-bias-among-jurors-death-penalty-cases

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/16/black-men-sentenced-to-more-time-for-committing-the-exact-same-crime-as-a-white-person-study-finds/

The evidence of systemic oppression is so overwhelming that the only way one can ignore this is by deliberately plugging our ears and closing eyes.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby darshan » 06 Jun 2020 05:20

@Jay, sorry not buying it. They can explicitly state it on their campaign or move on. And, btw I have been living in US for decades and know more than enough about US. There's no equality in fight for equality. One can at least shame whites into political correctness but there's no such thing when other colored people are being racist against Hindus.

You're more than welcome to contribute to:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7255#p2050400

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Primus » 06 Jun 2020 05:39

I think we all agree that Black Lives Matter too and that historically there has been intense discrimination against them. There are many medical studies that show disproportionate access to health care with consequent reduction in life expectancy and an increase in morbidity and mortality. All of this is well understood by anybody who has lived in the US for a while. We see it even now in many walks of life.

And yet, there has been a slowly growing demand for more from the non-colored communities, victimhood has become the dominant narrative. Floyd was full of fentanyl which must have contributed to his death but that fact is casually brushed aside. Imagine if he wasn't loaded up with a powerful sedative - he may have survived. He had triple vessel disease, his right coronary was 90% blocked, the other two 75%. He was also positive for COVID but the lungs did not show any pneumonia. His fentanyl level was almost 17ng/l which can be fatal in some people not used to it. He also had THC and methamphetamine in his system.

If he had not died, this would have been another case of police brutality. While it indeed is a case of extreme force being used, I doubt the cop meant to kill him (unless you believe the CTs going around). He was a dead man walking but unfortunately for him, it came to him in an extreme fashion.

Watching the news this morning, it was all about various little incidents of police brutality - shoving one person here, pulling one woman there and then pushing the older man (who refused to turn away) to the ground thus injuring him. At the end of the report, the newsman casually mentioned as if in passing about the assaults around the country on policemen by protestors and looters. Did not dwell on that for more than 15 seconds while the rest of the bulletin was taken up by stories about how Floyd was an angel (there was a painting of him with wings and a halo) and that the police were being their usual brutish selves all over the nation.

Sometimes the narrative gets so out of control that the truth is absolutely lost. There is no doubt in my mind that the media's lust for juicy stories about the way the police is handling the situation simply adds fuel to the fire.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Mort Walker » 06 Jun 2020 06:41

The dirty secret is that African-American males have always been killed as a matter of practice. Be it in the north or south. The black male has historically been bred like a workhorse for forced labor on farms and plantations. Those who were weak died as they were no use to the white property owners. This has created black males who are physically strong and aggressive. Even after slavery was ended, indentured servitude or poorly paid labor has been used by whites. The black unwed mother rate is also higher than other groups which leads to unstable family, housing, education and employment outcomes. Blacks do get stopped more by police, but other colored people get stopped more frequently than whites; however, the conflict between the police and black men quickly escalates as both sides are aggressive. If a hispanic or Indian was stopped, they would generally be more compliant and not argue with the police leading to less arrests and deaths.

I have male colleagues who are African-American and African of the same age group. Both with the same level of education and profession, but a night and day difference in behavior which is not just attributed to a loud American attitude.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby mappunni » 06 Jun 2020 08:51

Mort Walker wrote:
Surajsan wrote:White flight also happens in the context of competition - here in the bay area, several neighborhoods saw white flight as Asians/Indians started dominating a neighborhood because they schools started becoming extremely competitive, e.g. Cupertino saw lots of white families move away to places like Walnut Creek or way out into Sacramento suburbs like Roseville.


Similar in Texas. Then Texas changed their laws for admission to the flagship universities, admission is based on high school rank, so the more remote suburbs saw improved schools.


Exactly North Texas Suburbs of Flower Mound, Coppell, Valley Ranch, Frisco, and Plano are good examples of being filled with Indian, Chinese, and Korean populations.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby chetak » 06 Jun 2020 13:47

China is doing to the US what Pakistan did to India all along.

Counterfeit money, terrorism, 5th column in Executive, politicians, judiciary, feeding & promoting lumpens, leftists, funding the pimp media etc.



Indo-Pacific News@IndoPac_Info

#US Customs police seized $900,000 in counterfeit money from a #Chinese shipping container

Another element of #China's unrestricted warfare playbook against the #USA

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby bharotshontan » 06 Jun 2020 15:56

Mort Walker wrote:The dirty secret is that African-American males have always been killed as a matter of practice. Be it in the north or south. The black male has historically been bred like a workhorse for forced labor on farms and plantations. Those who were weak died as they were no use to the white property owners. This has created black males who are physically strong and aggressive. Even after slavery was ended, indentured servitude or poorly paid labor has been used by whites. The black unwed mother rate is also higher than other groups which leads to unstable family, housing, education and employment outcomes. Blacks do get stopped more by police, but other colored people get stopped more frequently than whites; however, the conflict between the police and black men quickly escalates as both sides are aggressive. If a hispanic or Indian was stopped, they would generally be more compliant and not argue with the police leading to less arrests and deaths.

I have male colleagues who are African-American and African of the same age group. Both with the same level of education and profession, but a night and day difference in behavior which is not just attributed to a loud American attitude.


The reason for difference in attitudes is not genetic or hormonal, it is different levels of ownership/investment. It's called "skin in the game". The general black American has ancestry that is native born to USA going back to 1619, and does not have new blood from Africa following early to mid 1800s. Your African immigrant or Indian immigrant or second gen is not going to do palta-jawaab with cops because not as much history in the land. Even white Americans as a whole have more recent blood and there is no distinction in bloodlines between colonial stock vs later migrations through the ages, except maybe small groups like Amish. Also Euro immigration has been continuous, so Trump's grandfather might have been a German immigrant that stood out from the colonial stock at that time but his son didn't. Blacks on other hand have fragmentized due to at least 150+ years gap of replenishing. Now a second gen Nigerian American is just as likely to do arranged marriage to a wife/husband from back in Nigeria than mix in with colonial stock black Americans. An appropriate comparison of the cultural distance between black America and immigrant blacks would be the one between Caribbean Indians (eg from Guyana and Trinidad) and Indian Indians. Similar 150 year gap.

Compare black responses in US not to Indian responses in US but to Indian responses in India lol.

Blacks from a historical power perspective are the Indian equivalent of Dalits. Indians/Chinese/Nigerian/Ghanaian etc are like micro minority Parsee equivalent.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby chetak » 06 Jun 2020 16:18

bharotshontan wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:The dirty secret is that African-American males have always been killed as a matter of practice. Be it in the north or south. The black male has historically been bred like a workhorse for forced labor on farms and plantations. Those who were weak died as they were no use to the white property owners. This has created black males who are physically strong and aggressive. Even after slavery was ended, indentured servitude or poorly paid labor has been used by whites. The black unwed mother rate is also higher than other groups which leads to unstable family, housing, education and employment outcomes. Blacks do get stopped more by police, but other colored people get stopped more frequently than whites; however, the conflict between the police and black men quickly escalates as both sides are aggressive. If a hispanic or Indian was stopped, they would generally be more compliant and not argue with the police leading to less arrests and deaths.

I have male colleagues who are African-American and African of the same age group. Both with the same level of education and profession, but a night and day difference in behavior which is not just attributed to a loud American attitude.


The reason for difference in attitudes is not genetic or hormonal, it is different levels of ownership/investment. It's called "skin in the game". The general black American has ancestry that is native born to USA going back to 1619, and does not have new blood from Africa following early to mid 1800s. Your African immigrant or Indian immigrant or second gen is not going to do palta-jawaab with cops because not as much history in the land. Even white Americans as a whole have more recent blood and there is no distinction in bloodlines between colonial stock vs later migrations through the ages, except maybe small groups like Amish. Also Euro immigration has been continuous, so Trump's grandfather might have been a German immigrant that stood out from the colonial stock at that time but his son didn't. Blacks on other hand have fragmentized due to at least 150+ years gap of replenishing. Now a second gen Nigerian American is just as likely to do arranged marriage to a wife/husband from back in Nigeria than mix in with colonial stock black Americans. An appropriate comparison of the cultural distance between black America and immigrant blacks would be the one between Caribbean Indians (eg from Guyana and Trinidad) and Indian Indians. Similar 150 year gap.

Compare black responses in US not to Indian responses in US but to Indian responses in India lol.

Blacks from a historical power perspective are the Indian equivalent of Dalits. Indians/Chinese/Nigerian/Ghanaian etc are like micro minority Parsee equivalent.


bharotshontan ji,

this is a very neat insight.

the black american people have been repressed as well as stereotyped by vested interests just like the dalits and so they now forcibly find themselves at the lower end of the totem pole with little or no opportunity for the betterment and just the token lip service systemic support to empower themselves.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Mort Walker » 06 Jun 2020 19:17

Compare black responses in US not to Indian responses in US but to Indian responses in India lol.

Blacks from a historical power perspective are the Indian equivalent of Dalits. Indians/Chinese/Nigerian/Ghanaian etc are like micro minority Parsee equivalent.


It is a false equivalent to compare Dalits (or scheduled castes) to American blacks. For one thing, there is no outward difference in appearance, and secondly scheduled castes have intact families unlike American blacks. Finally, the reservation system in India, which is the largest affirmative action program in the world, has brought significant numbers of scheduled castes into mainstream Indian society. Frankly, I find such comparisons smug and insulting.

The ownership argument implies that difference in attitude is taught or learned. I would say this is not the case, but selective breeding of black American males into the early 20th century is the cause of this difference. It will take two more generations before they mix into the rest of the population where this agressive behavior is no longer dominant.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Primus » 06 Jun 2020 19:40

There is some surface similarity between the SC/ST/Dalit population in India and the American Blacks. Both have been wronged similarly, perhaps not to the same extent. That is where it all ends.

The Dalits in India are far stronger politically and economically than the (American born) Blacks in the US. They are also beneficiaries of the various schemes that have been in place since Independence - a topic that I am not going to get into at all.

To me the biggest difference between the two peoples is what is most obvious and the raison d'etre, which is the physical appearance. The people of color in America are identifiable in to the third generation even if they marry whites. A black person is visible from a mile as a black person no matter where he goes or how high he rises in society.

In contrast, unless your name is 'Gujjar' or something like it, dalits are not identifiable by their clothes, talk, behavior, eating habits etc. The ones who are educated and well-off can often pass for 'suvarn' for years, especially if they change their name to 'Kumar' or something that is stripped of its origins. A very close friend of mine from high school onwards, a person I have known closely all my life comes from the SC/ST community and I did not know this until a few years ago. To me it makes no difference at all, but just a reminder of how difficult it may be. You can sit next to a dalit in a restaurant and eat or travel on a plane or train and you will never know.

In contrast, the black man in the US (or anywhere else) does not have this magic robe that hides his real identity. That is the key reason for all the angst on both sides. There is no way humanity can adjust to this difference unless they are trained to do so from birth and the different races intermarry and mingle for several generations.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby bharotshontan » 06 Jun 2020 20:16

Mort Walker wrote:
Compare black responses in US not to Indian responses in US but to Indian responses in India lol.

Blacks from a historical power perspective are the Indian equivalent of Dalits. Indians/Chinese/Nigerian/Ghanaian etc are like micro minority Parsee equivalent.


It is a false equivalent to compare Dalits (or scheduled castes) to American blacks. For one thing, there is no outward difference in appearance, and secondly scheduled castes have intact families unlike American blacks. Finally, the reservation system in India, which is the largest affirmative action program in the world, has brought significant numbers of scheduled castes into mainstream Indian society. Frankly, I find such comparisons smug and insulting.


Yes SC/ST are much stronger than black Americans, this much is true. Think of this though, blacks are in same dilemma that we as a whole Indians have been facing...Their relative progress came about via the MLK route and not the Malcolm X (black Gandhi vs black Bose). Dalits have given action reaction when possible. Recent example would be Phoolan Devi's massacre. Nothing equivalent exists in American history from black side. Blacks have been pounded by US every time they got a whiff of too much "uppity"ness. There were times when the whites had the USAF bomb wealthy black towns. On other hand, the SC/ST category is not fixed in time and various jaatis have moved up and down our totem pole based on power they could exert, from Marathas to Mauryas. So hierarchies of power are not fixed in time in our case. US is not that old, so it might seem like always having a permanent black underclass, but not necessarily always going to be the case.

It will take two more generations before they mix into the rest of the population where this agressive behavior is no longer dominant.


They are not interested in breeding themselves out. They are a 40 million large ethnic group with massive international visibility and cultural influence. They are the most xenophobic of Americans, possibly because they are the oldest bloodlines in that country now. Eventually they will tire themselves of the false positive of the MLK route and provide the bamboo...

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby saip » 06 Jun 2020 20:30

chetak wrote:China is doing to the US what Pakistan did to India all along.

Counterfeit money, terrorism, 5th column in Executive, politicians, judiciary, feeding & promoting lumpens, leftists, funding the pimp media etc.


Counterfeit money? Is it not how the whole thing started?

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby chetak » 06 Jun 2020 21:00

Mort Walker wrote:
Compare black responses in US not to Indian responses in US but to Indian responses in India lol.

Blacks from a historical power perspective are the Indian equivalent of Dalits. Indians/Chinese/Nigerian/Ghanaian etc are like micro minority Parsee equivalent.


It is a false equivalent to compare Dalits (or scheduled castes) to American blacks. For one thing, there is no outward difference in appearance, and secondly scheduled castes have intact families unlike American blacks. Finally, the reservation system in India, which is the largest affirmative action program in the world, has brought significant numbers of scheduled castes into mainstream Indian society. Frankly, I find such comparisons smug and insulting.

The ownership argument implies that difference in attitude is taught or learned. I would say this is not the case, but selective breeding of black American males into the early 20th century is the cause of this difference. It will take two more generations before they mix into the rest of the population where this agressive behavior is no longer dominant.


After World War I, the black americans had hoped for a new era of peace, prosperity, and equality. Black soldiers believed, as they were indeed led to believe, that their participation in the fight to make the world safe for democracy finally earn them rights they had been promised since the close of the ameriki civil War.

Instead, the blacks were backstabbed by the unmoved, unmovable, and ungrateful system and this resulted in an unprecedented wave of anti-black riots and lynchings swept the country for eight months. From april to november of 1919, the racial unrest rolled across the south into the north and the midwest, even to the nation's capital.

Millions of lives were disrupted, and hundreds of lives were lost. Blacks responded by fighting back with an intensity and determination never seen before.

decades later, those very birds are now coming home to roost, one by one. The whites still do not understand.

The system did not deliver on its implied social contract and obligations to the blacks and it wilfully went back to its old ways again, confident in its supremacist rights and the arrogant knowledge that it would once again "get away with it"

This is exactly what the britshits had fully intended to do to India, very confident in the fact that gandhi, neverwho and other Indian house negroes would put up some token resistance and then toe the imperial line as they had always done so dependably before. jinnah was for sale and he would have wound up as the PM of undivided India which was his fondest dream and who better than gandhi to "convince" the Hindus to make that happen.

Fate intervened in the form of the very real ghost of Bose and his non ghost INA which inspired mutinies and the britshits, ever fearful of being overrun by the baying hordes of "heathen" Hindus, with the haunting and gory memories of the nightmare of 1857, lost heart, panicked and then simply cut and ran after quickly and callously implementing a politically loaded scorched earth policy and the numerous landmines in the form of devious, traitorous and treasonous maculayputras, the erstwhile ICS, the colonial police as well as the bewigged colonial hizonners.

the devious britshits thought that they would be back soon because they never expected the often warring Indian states and kingdoms to pull through as one entity. and yet, here we are 70 odd years later despite those britshit bequeathed landmines going off once every now and then.

Thankfully, the forces, because of their early actions in cashmere, hyderabad and goa, where they fought largely under Indian officers, lost their colonial genes fairly quickly. Today, they still have some few remnants of the "ye olde colonial trappings" in the form of traditions but none of the old genes and their loyalty is only to India.

This is not always the case in some of the other pillars of our democracy.

The black americans have no one else to turn to, no other avenues open to them so they have to change the system before it fully drowns then all out.

It looks like that whites have never intended for the blacks to be part of the ameriki dream.

"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is a hollow phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence as it does not seem to apply to the blacks. The phrase gives three examples of the "unalienable rights" which the Declaration says have been given to all humans by their creator, and which governments are created to protect.

They lied through their teeth because they purposely and willfully left the blacks out.
Last edited by chetak on 06 Jun 2020 21:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Rony » 06 Jun 2020 21:02

From Facebook

Who is responsible for destroying the family system among the blacks of the USA ?

Prof. Henry Louis Gates Jr. points out that between 1525 CE and 1866 CE, 12.5 million African slaves were shipped across the Atlantic. Of those, 10.7 million survived the voyage. How many of these landed in North America ? A mere 388,000. The rest ? They went to South America. Brazil imported 35% of the black slaves, Spanish America imported 20%. Why do we not then see a very high number of blacks in South America who are struggling to integrate with society or having broken families as is the case in the USA ?

The Catholic church had endorsed and propagated the slavery of Africans. The high death rate among the colonized Native Indians made the church abolish Native Indian slavery and to replace it with the slavery of Africans. The church had created a hierarchy of the whites on top, mixed (Spanish + indigenous) people in the middle, and the blacks at the bottom. However, the Catholic church also recognized the blacks as god's children. This allowed the blacks to marry and to raise families. In due course of time, they would inter-marry with the mixed people. Today, as many as 90% of South Americans have an African ancestry. The ability to marry and raise families meant that the blacks in South America would integrate with the mainstream in due course of time. This has striking parallel to how Indians, who too had been taken to the Caribbean as slave by the white man, formed cohesive families and uplifted themselves.

In contrast, Protestants of North America outlawed marriage for blacks, who were also declared a mere 3/5th of a human being. This resulted in blacks being forced to exploit their own women. No stable and nurturing family system evolved among the blacks of North America. Even much of the observed phenomena such as black mothers not talking much to their infants may have been the outcome of this cruel predation by America's Protestants. Many black children and youth in America grew up in dysfunctional families because of Protestant cruelty. The high rate of crime in America's black communities is a direct consequence of this tragic reality.

Ironically, most American blacks are Protestants !

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby bharotshontan » 06 Jun 2020 21:30

Blacks had strong families after emancipation. What broke them was the repeated massacres they faced whenever they built islands of prosperity...Rakshaks should read into things like Tulsa, Rosewood, Ocoee massacre etc. Just wiki perusal is enough.

Imagine similar things carried out on Silicon Valley or Princeton once it is deemed that SDREs are getting uppity.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Jay » 06 Jun 2020 22:11

Mort Walker wrote:

It is a false equivalent to compare Dalits (or scheduled castes) to American blacks. For one thing, there is no outward difference in appearance, and secondly scheduled castes have intact families unlike American blacks. Finally, the reservation system in India, which is the largest affirmative action program in the world, has brought significant numbers of scheduled castes into mainstream Indian society. Frankly, I find such comparisons smug and insulting.

The ownership argument implies that difference in attitude is taught or learned. I would say this is not the case, but selective breeding of black American males into the early 20th century is the cause of this difference. It will take two more generations before they mix into the rest of the population where this agressive behavior is no longer dominant.


Well said. This is exactly what I’m fighting in US and about how Dalits are treated and empowered in India and why it’s patently false to equate Indian caste dynamics with US racial injustice. Indian had done so much since it’s independence and with two generations has almost wiped out systemic disadvantages of lower castes in education and economic sectors. There still is more work but US is generation behind India to come to parity in this area.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Mort Walker » 06 Jun 2020 23:15

Woodrow Wilson was the 20th century architect of American apartheid. He was the one who re-segregated the US civil service and promoted Jim Crow laws. The US civil service after civil war reconstruction had become highly integrated. It would have become a model for the rest of the country. It wasn't until 1948 that the US Army begin integration as a result of the cold war.

Now some of the posts here seek a rationalization of American black male aggressive behavior as acceptable given past history.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby arshyam » 06 Jun 2020 23:17

Rajiv Malhotra uvacha: Introduction, "Breaking India" (link)

In the 1990s, an African-American scholar at Princeton University casually told me that he had returned from a trip to India, where he was working with the ‘Afro-Dalit Project’. I learnt that this US operated and -financed project frames inter-jati/varna interactions and the Dalit movement using American cultural and historical lenses. The Afro-Dalit project purports to paint Dalits as the ‘Blacks’ of India and non-Dalits as India’s ‘Whites’. The history of American racism, slavery and Black/White relations is thus superimposed onto Indian society. While modern caste structures and inter-relationships have included long periods of prejudice toward Dalits, the Dalit experience bears little resemblance to the African slave experience of America. But taking its cue from the American experience, the Afro-Dalit project attempts to empower Dalits by casting them as victims at the hands of a different race.

Let's not fall into this trap.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby KLNMurthy » 06 Jun 2020 23:30

arshyam wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:In my early days in America, I used to be amused at the freak outs by white colleagues whenever their safety perception fell even slightly below 400%. From the terror-stricken “aartha-naadams” of our guys here, it looks like desi jingoes have arrived at that white first-world scared little-girl level of fragility. That’s progress, I suppose.

Or maybe it’s a generational thing.

Or maybe it is just schadenfreude, plain and simple.

TBH saar, I am surprised that a senior poster like you didn't consider that angle before calling it fragility and what not.

I am quite aware of that angle. I would have exercised Schadenfreude by calling attention to the fragility of white people in the face of what is modest pushback by Indian standards, rather than reflexively identify with the white POV, calling black people looters & criminals etc.--essentially implying that they are nothing but dangerous primitives and savages, and equating them with India's rioters who are actually overprivileged people, the equivalent of reactionary whites in America.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Mort Walker » 06 Jun 2020 23:34

arshyam wrote:Rajiv Malhotra uvacha: Introduction, "Breaking India" (link)

In the 1990s, an African-American scholar at Princeton University casually told me that he had returned from a trip to India, where he was working with the ‘Afro-Dalit Project’. I learnt that this US operated and -financed project frames inter-jati/varna interactions and the Dalit movement using American cultural and historical lenses. The Afro-Dalit project purports to paint Dalits as the ‘Blacks’ of India and non-Dalits as India’s ‘Whites’. The history of American racism, slavery and Black/White relations is thus superimposed onto Indian society. While modern caste structures and inter-relationships have included long periods of prejudice toward Dalits, the Dalit experience bears little resemblance to the African slave experience of America. But taking its cue from the American experience, the Afro-Dalit project attempts to empower Dalits by casting them as victims at the hands of a different race.

Let's not fall into this trap.


Thanks for the link! I had forgotten about this. It's been a few years since I read "Breaking India".

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby KLNMurthy » 06 Jun 2020 23:37

darshan wrote:My essential line at work when someone asks for my opinion about whether I support it or not. I don't support racism. Why do only black lives matter? What happened to other colored people? Why didn't they choose colored lives matter? There are plenty of examples of brown Hindu people not getting any social justice and victims of police brutality. Many police stations don't even bother to investigate murders of small business owners. In HR world, everyone stops the lip service after taking care of blacks, latinos, and LGBTQ. It's not like brown Hindu people aren't everyday subjected of various racism issues.

Actor Sara Ali Khan Trolled For Advocating “All Lives Matter” Instead Of #BlackLivesMatter On Social Media
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/actor-sar ... cial-media

Every civili rights movement originated by blacks in America has been inclusive, calling for equality for all races. The other non-black colored races have hardly reciprocated, preferring to stamp on the black people as they climb upwards with opportunities that were created by black struggle and sacrifice.

This is the reality. Not the picture you are painting, of ungrateful and selfish blacks who think only of themselves.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Suraj » 07 Jun 2020 00:00

The All Lives Matter argument has a gaping logical hole that is best expressed as follows:

BLMji: "Greetings friend. I'm seeking your support for restoration of Sri Rundowneeshwara Temple."
ALMji: "What ?? How dare you ? All temples matter, not just your one. Do you think your temple is special or better than the rest, huh you bustard ?"

The ALMji argument fundamentally does not recognize that there’s an issue today, just that special treatment is being sought. Many BLMjis fall into the trap of getting indignant and asserting they deserve more than the rest. That's an easy trap to fall into - claim special treatment. White America has no interest at all in special treatment.

Some political support may exist, but by and large, the pan-Indian acquiescence of caste affirmative action - even though there is some healthy opposition to it as there should be in any kind of politics - does not exist. The center of mass of support for Black upliftment in the US is still solidly 'IDGAF'. Fingers invariably point to the symptoms of failure of black society. Tokenist measures like drastically lowered admission standards do little more than what they do in India - identify some people as poorly qualified 'diversity candidates'.

The BLM folks need to emphasize to what extent they get treated as unequal on an almost casual basis. In fact this kind of casual patronization impacts Indians too - most Indians just don't notice or care about it because Indians have a socio-economic standing vastly higher than that of blacks.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Ambar » 07 Jun 2020 00:10

We've come a full circle on BRF in the last 15 years . I remember back in the 00s this false equivalency of US blacks = Indian Dalits was robustly debated and debunked by many on this forum, unfortunately most of those people have left BRF now. The afro-dalit project was the plank western missionaries and evangelists used to draw a wedge between dalits, tribals and others within the hindu faith. The marxist historians both in India and from the west provided cover fire in form of fake equivalency , they distorted history and molded it to fit their narrative to further this belief that the plight of the african americans in US is same as the plight of dalits and tribals in India. The missionaries then used this narrative as a lever to conduct large scale conversions beginning late 80s which continues to this day.

The ancestors of current day blacks in north and south america were brought to the American continents as "goods" against their will with the sole purpose of exploiting them for economic gains. The social and economic exploitation was fully supported by institutionalized oppression through various laws that not only disenfranchised the blacks but also ensured that future generations were deprived of rights and privileges that were readily available to the whites. Compare this to dalits who's identity, criteria and definition varies from one century to another. They are of the same ethnicity, race, culture and are natives to the land but were deprived of various rights for various reasons but primarily due to a vulgar understanding of jaati and varna concepts. As democracy spread in India so did positive discrimination by helping the dalits through reservations in education and jobs, and the question of electoral disenfranchising or keeping them out of high offices in government never arose.

The dangers of conflating race to caste is all too obvious. The intent of marxist historians, missionaries and confused groups within India is to super-impose race on caste and create a "oppressive racial enemy" ie Hindus. If we fall for this fake narrative then we are encouraging a feeling of victimhood, a perpetual belief that one section of the society is being persecuted and the consequences that follow such beliefs. As an outside observer of American history and politics, in my opinion where US went wrong was it went from deeply racist and oppressive policies against blacks, to placating them through programs that did not do anything to solve the foundational fundamental issues , its akin to putting a bandaid on a gaping bullet hole. So now you have generations of african americans who grow up feeling persecuted, with strong feeling of victimhood, but due to poorly aimed entitlement programs lack skills to overcome some of these problems. If there's a lesson US can possibly learn from India is that government programs should target self-sufficiency instead of continuous entitlement which will handicap generations. Similarly, those of us who vehemently oppose this equivalency of dalit to african americans need to remind the marxists/missionaries that when the blacks seeked emancipation in the 20th century, it was organized and spearheaded by their churches, so dalits must seek solutions or bring changes within the dharmic framework instead of converting to a religion which is not native.

Bottomline, lets not help those seeking to break India by falling for this "black lives matter" movement = "dalits/muslim righs" movement that the marxists,islamist-supremacists and bollywood types are desperately propagating.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby bharotshontan » 07 Jun 2020 00:35

Okay it was not my intention to conflate the two. I was mentioning Dalits simply because it is the closest example of a historically disenfranchised group. Of course all Indians are the same race, so race in US and jaati is not the same, and I myself alluded to how various jaatis have climbed up and down the power totem pole throughout our civilization.

Just because the Afro-Dalit project is a BIF project originally doesn't mean that the sword cannot be turned around and weaponized in favor of Indic interests. If the white-right can use the white-left and their brown lackeys to prick at India, we can do the same. End of the day we are not in the same boat as whites of either political persuasion...
Last edited by bharotshontan on 07 Jun 2020 00:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby m_saini » 07 Jun 2020 00:38

Ambar wrote:
Bottomline, lets not help those seeking to break India by falling for this "black lives matter" movement = "dalits/muslim righs" movement that the marxists,islamist-supremacists and bollywood types are desperately propagating.


+1001

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby darshan » 07 Jun 2020 00:48

KLNMurthy wrote:
This is the reality. Not the picture you are painting, of ungrateful and selfish blacks who think only of themselves.


Unfortunately that's the correct picture. Check on how many times blacks and their local organisations gang up on local store owners. Know more than enough Gujaratis who were on the receiving end of it. Call in cops on everyday harrasment in South areas and see how things go if you're motel owner or convenience store owner. How many encounters have you really have had on their turfs? Ever sent your kids to schools dominated by them?

How many black organisations hit the road to demand justice when Indian origin people are killed? I still remember the Indian students killed at LSU and wonderful responses received by many such organisations.

Black law enforcement agents racial profile Indians as much as whites do.

How many HR battles have you picked in the corporate world from the Indian perspective? I have had many. Pretty much I never had any support from other colored people to support issues affecting me. Many times HR chairs were occupied by blacks and they had no trouble telling me that vegetarian food is for hippies and not a religious/cultural issue. I have ran into many whites who would stop and say what about issues affecting this guy. Never seen any black do it. And, I work in industry dominated by whites. Not one time I have had black or Latino employee group to come and fight HR battle about being vegetarian Hindu. Certainly they would show up to set up a prayer room for muslims. I always have my litmus tests ready.

How many blacks stand behind issues like incorrect textbooks? Something that even affects them.

They equally go after Hindus about various stereotypes like casteism. Oh but they would go off the cuff if someone else stereotypes them.

Bullying of Indian kids is normal and kids' educated parents feel like they are entitled to get away with anything due to their historical suffering.

While their organisations like NAACP are inclusive on demands but that's nothing more than lip service. Actions speak louder than words. If anything, they are much more likely to cry for muslims in US than Hindus.

Please don't tell me that just because they are black that they are not racist and believe in standing in solidarity with other colored people. Or believe in not getting off the negotiation table till all the issues affecting colored people is covered.

Added later:
Ground reality doesn't reflect many of their intentions from the bird's eye view. Especially when it comes to looking at Hindus from the whiteman's religion.
Last edited by darshan on 07 Jun 2020 01:29, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby anmol » 07 Jun 2020 00:54

Democrats have run Minneapolis for generations. Why is there still systemic racism?

George Korda, Knoxville News Sentinel, USA TODAY Opinion•June 6, 2020

My home town newspaper published a front-page photo on Wednesday with a caption about protests against "systemic police brutality against people of color."

Systemic racism is being discussed a great deal in the wake of George Floyd’s death under the knee of now-former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin.

The video of Chauvin’s knee on Floyd’s neck for nearly nine minutes, as Floyd repeatedly said he couldn’t breathe, has ignited protests peaceful and violent, with the tragedy also being used by some as a way to destroy, steal — and worse. In one case, looters in St. Louis shot and killed David Dorn, a highly respected black retired police captain, as he was trying to protect a pawn shop.

It’s likely — just as it’s likely the sun comes up in the west — that when a good many people say “systemic racism,” they’re not including the politicians they like and the political party they favor.

One way to tell? Their attitude toward who has been running the systems. [..]

"Minneapolis, Minn. has been under Democratic control since 1978. Chicago has been under Democratic control for 89 years; its present mayor is a black woman. Philadelphia has had Democratic mayors for 68 years; three of its last five mayors have been black men. Six of the last seven Atlanta, Ga., mayoral administrations were led by black Democratic mayors, and the present mayor is a black woman.

"A city runs its police department and other services; therefore, if there is so much 'systemic racism' in these organizations, why hasn't it been corrected over so many years under Democratic leaders?

"Why aren't these cities garden spots of racial tolerance, understanding, and virtue?" [..]

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Postby Mort Walker » 07 Jun 2020 07:12

darshan wrote:
They equally go after Hindus about various stereotypes like casteism. Oh but they would go off the cuff if someone else stereotypes them.

Bullying of Indian kids is normal and kids' educated parents feel like they are entitled to get away with anything due to their historical suffering.

While their organisations like NAACP are inclusive on demands but that's nothing more than lip service. Actions speak louder than words. If anything, they are much more likely to cry for muslims in US than Hindus.

Please don't tell me that just because they are black that they are not racist and believe in standing in solidarity with other colored people. Or believe in not getting off the negotiation table till all the issues affecting colored people is covered.

Added later:
Ground reality doesn't reflect many of their intentions from the bird's eye view. Especially when it comes to looking at Hindus from the whiteman's religion.


Exactly. If you're on their turf, American blacks will go after Indians as much as whites. Not as many Indians have experienced that. They feel that they are the designated minority and you're taking their job and place. Recently, I had a black scientist criticize HCQ saying that its use in India is one where that "place" is unregulated and uncontrolled where anything goes and you can't trust what's coming out of that "place". This is a person who I've known for 25 years and have a good working relationship with. It came out of the blue during a side during a meeting I was having. The only person laughing was another African American engineer who I've known for a similar time. Everyone else including the whites were silent.


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