Understanding the US - Again

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Cyrano
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Cyrano »

"If there is even 1% evidence to back up the allegation of DT being Russian Agent we can be certain Democrats would have found out after years of witch hunt."

Oh, so evidence has suddenly become a factor of consideration? If Trump & his thugs claim the election was rigged without any evidence in 60 court cases which they all lost, why can't the rest claim he is a Russin/Chinese/Iranian/whatever stooge without evidence?

To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, “What can be claimed without evidence can be fought with a counter claim without evidence.”
Cyrano
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Cyrano »

America is a nation created and sustained on bloodshed and injustice to natives, blacks, immigrants, women, minorities, Vietnamese, Iraqis, Afghans... done by White Christians, mostly male. They know it. Many of them feel a need to own guns because they live in a constant anxiety and fear that violent retribution is just around the corner, thats why the compulsive jingo rhetoric. These people are highly susceptible to conspiracy theories, flat-earthers, moon landing denier loonies. America and RoW underestimated the extent of these loonies in he population, thinking they are mostly fringe, rural, low educated and poor.

Trump's 2016 campaign and election was a big alert for me. That anxiety and fear drives many more Americans than I ever suspected before. That the moral squalor of one half the nation living on credit and cheap Chinese goods with "eat, drink, destroy and be merry, for tomorrow we'll die" attitude, shows that it is actually living in despair, and knows deep down how precarious it is and wants to blame someone else to avoid looking critically at itself. Trump cashed in, presenting himself as a unique saviour. But unlike Jesus who took mankind's sins upon him to save humanity (if you believe such a thing), Trump sinned more than anyone, and openly, brazenly, to legitimise such behaviour. This is very appealing to anyone anxious and afraid because now the person holding the highest office in the most powerful nation is showing day & night, how easy it is to getaway with it. This half got energised with Trump acting as a lightning rod. Realising they have nothing to lose, they have bared fangs, ready to settle its scores with the other half of the nation.

This could be the beginning of America's downfall, and I hope that it will not come to that.
dsreedhar
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by dsreedhar »

If anyone interested here is a walkaway campaign channel on youtube where people expressed their views and reasons to support Trump.
vera_k
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by vera_k »

So some fraud is found and the election is overturned, then what?

The calls of "Not My President", "#Resist" and continuous protests started 4 years ago with Trump's election. The country will be right back to that mode. This is a particular vulnerability of the US democratic system. In a parliamentary system, with a close election, you'd go a little while with a new government and head back to the polls soon as a vote of confidence is lost. Here, people have to suffer through 4 years before they get another shot at changing the status quo. And then that leads to these high stakes, high voltage elections.
srikandan
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by srikandan »

not on topic. so deleting.
Last edited by srikandan on 13 Jan 2021 00:21, edited 1 time in total.
saip
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by saip »

srikandan wrote: Countries like India have a two-factor vote -- EVM and a paper copy printed by the EVM stuffed and stored separately.
In GA if you vote in person, you make the selection on a touch screen and then the machine prints the paper ballot which you verify and feed it to the counting machine. The ballot goes into a lock box. These were HAND COUNTED later. Also hand counted were the absentee ballots which have ovals marking the votes. The counts matched. So, what is the problem?
Cyrano
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Cyrano »

Srikandan, If you want to study the detailed voting & counting processes across US states perhaps BRF is not the university you should be spending time on.

And I will get snarky if I feel like it when responding to inane arguments.
williams
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by williams »

saip wrote:
srikandan wrote: Countries like India have a two-factor vote -- EVM and a paper copy printed by the EVM stuffed and stored separately.
In GA if you vote in person, you make the selection on a touch screen and then the machine prints the paper ballot which you verify and feed it to the counting machine. The ballot goes into a lock box. These were HAND COUNTED later. Also hand counted were the absentee ballots which have ovals marking the votes. The counts matched. So, what is the problem?
Most US states have the same process. You use electronic machine to select with a machine. Then there is a printed paper. You can verify if the printed paper is accurate and then you pass the printed paper through a scanner. Both the scanned version and printed paper is record for counting/verification. I think most problems (if any) should come from the postal ballots.
nachiket
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by nachiket »

Mod-Note:No more discussion about US elections. This thread is not to discuss election procedure and fraud allegations or throwing around accusations of Trump/Biden being Russian/Chinese agents. Further posts on these lines will invite bans. You have been warned.
hnair
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by hnair »

Cyrano wrote: And I will get snarky if I feel like it when responding to inane arguments.
In your personal profile, yes. But here, you report offending posts. Please don’t make things difficult than it is! Warning issued

A final appeal to the duking posters here:

Dear posters: no one in US and most certainly not in India care about your love and respect for outgoing or incoming POTUS. They are all millionaires and some are billionaires who reached there by convincing all sides that they have solutions to everyone’s problems, but mostly solves only Saddam’s chronic neck pain or Osama’s edema. Not my issues of paying an EMI in India or your douche-boss issues due to visa/GC delays. Heck, they could not even solve pakis killing their own troops with impunity - I mean different POTUS slept or handed out AMRAAMS! They will squish our interests like a bug if situation demands.

Why make it bad for admins who have to intervene this bitch-slap fest once a while?
Vayutuvan
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Vayutuvan »

Deleted
Last edited by Suraj on 13 Jan 2021 03:56, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: No ad hominems.
Skanda
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Skanda »

Some thoughts on the recent intifada that happened in the US Capitol.
1. The "Right" has been completely delegitimized because of the protests. Pictures and videos of the protests will be used to batter the right and rob them off any questions that the "Right" may genuinely ask. Anyone who questions the fairness of elections would be dismissed as a Capitol riots supporter and hence dismissed. So, I am guessing 75 million voters can kiss goodbye any chance of getting any grievance addressed.

Lessons for India: Hindus are just 1 mistake away from being summarily dismissed as well. It took Modi and 2014 for Hindus to find some voice. I am sure folks must be frustrated at the way the GOI is treating farm protest almost with kid-gloves and bending backwards at the SC. But remember 1-incorrect move and Hindus would have reset whatever progress we have made in the last 6 years.

2. Also impressed at the speed with which the Democrats are going after Trump. Deutsche Bank has terminated relationship with Trump. Every platform that Trump can use to speak out is being removed. At this rate, its very likely that Trump would even be allowed in restaurants. Even Harvey Weinstein, someone who raped Hollywood celebrities started to be boo'ed in restaurants when the amount of proof got to a point where it couldn't be ignored.

Lessons for India: Thankfully, the political opposition is decimated here, at least at the central level. But not sure how much of control the central Govt has when it comes to regulating platforms. The time to regulate them was yesterday. And no, new desi platforms is not the answer. Making a clear set of rules and holding every platform accountable is the answer.

3. Invest in institutions. When the cookie crumbled for Trump, he had no where to go. The US Supreme Court refused, the US Election authorities had their hands tied back and their officials were too partisan. There was simply no one to stand up for Trump.

Kind of depressed with the events of the last few days in the US, knowing fully well that Soros has been immeasurably strengthened.
Skanda
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Skanda »

vera_k wrote:So some fraud is found and the election is overturned, then what?

The calls of "Not My President", "#Resist" and continuous protests started 4 years ago with Trump's election. The country will be right back to that mode. This is a particular vulnerability of the US democratic system.
I don't think so. The republican voters have been delegitimized and purged off most social media platforms. Even the US Army has issued a statement indicating that they remove anyone/everyone who even posted anything remotely supportive of the US Capitol protests.

A vast majority of Americans will feel disenfranchised. Good luck to them. They have been shafted royally. Bad for them, they are even robbed off tools to communicate, organize, march.
Najunamar
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Najunamar »

I believe this all started as an experiment in the college campuses where all right wing voices were/are being silenced. Hence it is important to understand the MO used in the US - all the folks who tried 4 years back to delegitimize the elections will now vociferously demand that anyone who questions the progressive agenda is branded as a traitor. I have seen such claims surface but not with su h frenzied passion from so many.
Tanaji
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Tanaji »

This won’t end well in the long run. The democrats are now he’ll bent on rubbing it in and giving back in equal measure. There is a sizeable population that agreed with Trump and they are not likely to change their opinions and neither is the anger going to go away. The absolute worst that can happen is not another Trump in a few years time but a smarter version: one that is moderately competent in terms of administration but is determined to pay back.
darshan
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by darshan »

One wonders whom they are sending signals to.
Just like Nazis couldn't be christian.
I suppose that we won't get to see the list of churches that rioters went to.
Overdramatized piece from CNN.
Capitol rioters made a mockery of Christian values
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/14/opinions ... index.html
(CNN)As someone who has devoted his entire life to understanding, exploring and teaching the truth about Christianity, I saw the use of Christian symbols and rhetoric as part of the violent assault on the US Capitol as a desecration of democracy's chapel and a blaspheme of my faith.
....
Kati
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Kati »

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/mlk ... 14550.html

Yahoo Movies
'MLK/FBI' director talks 'cancel culture' and the Civil Rights leader's legacy via unreleased FBI recordings
Ethan Alter
Ethan Alter·Senior Writer, Yahoo Entertainment
Tue, January 12, 2021, 4:12 PM CST
Since his assassination in 1968, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. has been enshrined in American history as a Civil Rights hero and a prophet of a better tomorrow. But a more complex portrait of the preacher and activist is on display in the new documentary MLK/FBI, which arrives in theaters and on demand on Jan. 15 after premiering at both the Toronto and New York film festivals last fall. Directed by Sam Pollard, the movie chronicles the FBI’s multi-year surveillance of King on the orders of the agency’s founder and director, J. Edgar Hoover. Using on-the-ground agents and informants, as well as bugs and wiretaps, the FBI recorded — and eventually weaponized — a side of King’s life that he kept carefully hidden from his followers: his adulterous affairs with many different women.

While the audio tapes containing those intimate encounters won’t be released to the public until 2027, details of their contents have already emerged in previously published government documents. One particularly incendiary report alleged that King witnessed a rape committed by another pastor, and didn’t intervene to stop it. The contrast between his image and the man reportedly heard on the FBI tapes has led some conservative commentators to preemptively speculate whether the so-called “cancel culture” they frequently criticize will feel compelled to do the unthinkable and cancel King.

The FBI's harassment of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is the subject of the new documentary, 'MLK/FBI' (Photo: Courtesy IFC Films)
The FBI's harassment of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is the subject of the new documentary MLK/FBI. (Photo: Courtesy IFC Films)
“I don’t think so, man,” Pollard tells Yahoo Entertainment about the possibility of that cancellation coming to pass. “We live in a time of social media where people are constantly trying to denigrate people and who they were and what they were all about. The term ‘cancel culture’ is hot and heavy. We've seen it happen with the notion of taking down the names and the statues of Confederate generals, and there will probably be some backlash against certain Black leaders. It's to be expected in this country. But I think King will probably escape that — that's my take.”

At the same time, Pollard acknowledges that the release of the tapes will bring renewed scrutiny to King’s legacy, both from those who, as he says, “never had any respect for King and the movement” as well as adults who came of age in households where he was revered. “Growing up in African American communities, I’ve always said there were three images we had on our wall: Martin Luther King, John F. Kennedy and Jesus Christ,” the director remarks. “I look at it this way: When I was 14, I was told that Abraham Lincoln was a great American president because he was a great emancipator. I’ve learned since then that he wasn’t so hopped up on freeing the slaves. He needed bodies to fight the Civil War. Did that diminish Abraham Lincoln in my eyes? Not really, and I don’t think that’ll happen to King.”

In fact, Pollard indicates that he was made aware of King’s extramarital affairs long before he started work on MLK/FBI, and has since processed that information into his broader understanding of his life story. “I’ve known for years that he had illicit affairs. Now, what I might hear on those tapes might make me go, ‘Woah,’ but it’s not going to change my take on Dr. King. The thing to remember is that this was the 1960s, and there was a different idea about the relationship between men and women. I'm not trying to excuse it, but it was different. You can try to hold Dr. King's feet to the fire and say, ‘He shouldn't have done that’ And yeah, you're absolutely right, but the relationship that men and women had was very different back then. What you may also hear on those tapes are the [protest] strategies King was going to put into place in cities like Birmingham or Selma when he was in the room with people like Ralph Abernathy and Andrew Young. You’ll hear those kinds of discussions, too.”

Sam Pollard, the director of the new documentary, 'MLK/FBI' (Photo: Courtesy IFC Films)
Sam Pollard, the director of the new documentary MLK/FBI. (Photo: Courtesy IFC Films)
As MLK/FBI suggests, the existence of the tapes is more controversial than what may be on them. At first acting on his own authority, and later with the tacit endorsement of President Lyndon B. Johnson’s administration, Hoover maintained constant surveillance of King’s activities and used that material in various blackmail attempts to force him into silence. Copies and transcripts of the tapes were even mailed to King’s wife, Coretta Scott King, in the hopes of rupturing their marriage. While those plans ultimately proved unsuccessful, it didn’t curtail Hoover’s deep-seated desire to damage King’s public image.

“Hoover grew up as a white man in America with a certain set of values that were instilled in him, and Black people were not even something to be thinking about,” Pollard says of Hoover’s motivations to target King. “All of a sudden a Black man and a Black community says, ‘We want to be a part of the fabric of America, and not just sit on the fringes.’ That scared the s*** out of people and it still does, to be frank. Hoover and the FBI were frightened to the point where they wire-tapped him and used that information to try to discredit and destroy him. That’s the lengths they would go to.” Hoover died in 1972 — four years after King’s assassination — never apologizing for pursuing his personal vendetta against King, and the agency’s subsequent leaders have declined to apologize to the family as well.

Former FBI director James Comey is among the interview subjects Pollard spoke to for MLK/FBI and his description of Hoover’s surveillance of King as the agency’s “darkest period” is the closest thing the filmmaker expects to hear to an official apology. “They should, but they won’t,” he says matter-of-factly. “And the lengths that the FBI went to discredit Dr. King — don’t believe that they don’t do that today with certain organizations. Don’t believe that they don’t have informants within the Black Lives Matter movement. Don’t believe that they’re not bugging and monitoring what they consider to be radical organizations. They’re America’s police and they’re still doing these things.”

MLK/FBI premiered on the festival circuit after the summertime Black Lives Matter protests cast a renewed spotlight on the treatment of Black activists by state and federal law enforcement. Now, the documentary is going into general release on the heels of the Jan. 6 insurrection in Washington D.C., where many noted the stark disparity with which many of those same agencies engaged with President Trump’s largely white supporters. Pollard and his collaborators released a statement on Twitter following the Capitol riot, forcefully linking King’s past to our present. “We condemn this assault, as we condemn the values of white supremacy and authoritarian law that so obviously animate it,” the statement reads. “It is vitally important that those who identified as having participated in yesterday’s riot be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and not granted any special clemency because of the color of their skin.”


Reflecting on the events of Jan. 6 now, Pollard describes the insurrection as an example of American history repeating itself. “It’s a flashback to many of the things that America has gone through, not just in the 1960s, but also earlier than that. We need to deal with the notion that America was founded on some pretty horrific things, including slavery and the elimination of Native people. If you go back to the Tulsa Race Massacre, no one stopped those people from destroying Black communities. Law enforcement either stood by, or they were involved in it. We should really want to come to grips with that, and realize that you can't, as an American, say, “If I don't like something, I'm going to tear the country down.”

Pollard also ruefully notes the stark contrast between the images of Trump supporters rioting on the steps of the Capitol in 2021 versus the peaceful rally that King held on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963 — footage that’s glimpsed throughout MLK/FBI. “The Kennedy administration was terrified at the idea of all of these people coming into Washington, but it was nonviolent and hopeful. Then you flash-forward to Jan. 6 and led by the vocal rantings of people like Donald Trump, Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump Jr., this group of people went down there with a mission to circumvent the certification of the next president of the United States by any means necessary. It’s frightening to think about the contradictions here in America.”

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963 (Photo: Courtesy IFC Films)
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963. (Photo: Courtesy IFC Films)
Despite the violence that’s accompanied the aftermath of the 2020 election, Pollard sees reasons to be hopeful about the year ahead, starting with President-elect Joe Biden entering the Oval Office on Jan. 20. “I believe he’s going to be the person that shows us how to get out of this pandemic, and help the economy rebound. It’ll be tough, and there will be people out there who felt like he never should be our president, but he’ll bring harmony and a sense of unification for our country, because he’s not out there for Joe Biden. He’s out there to be president of the people of the United States. That’s what we’ve been stressed out about these last four years: We’ve had a man in office who has never been about the people.”

It also didn’t escape Pollard’s attention that on the same day that insurrectionists stormed the Capitol, King’s home state of Georgia elected Reverend Raphael Warnock — who was born the year after King’s death and has preached at his former congregation, the Ebenezer Baptist Church, since 2005 — as its first Black senator. “There was that on Wednesday morning when I heard that Warnock had won, and I said, ‘Wow. Georgia is turned blue,’ Pollard remembers. “I thought of that King phrase: ‘The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.’ It’s great that he won that seat, and he’s hopefully carrying on the legacy of Dr. King and others. There needs to be more people of color in the Senate chamber.”

MLK/FBI premieres Friday, Jan. 15 in select theaters (get tickets on Fandango) and on-demand.
Cyrano
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Cyrano »

Inside the Capitol Hill riot: 2 comedians who make funny videos got the scare of their life when they went to make a sort of prank video on 6th Jan at the Trump Rally and followed the crowd to the Capitol.

What is notable is that there are lots of fringe loonies in the pro trump groups as to be expected, but also quite a few otherwise seemingly sane people who seem to abandon reason, logic and reciprocity when comes to Trump. Both these types seem to have been feeding execlusively on Fox/OAN type disinformation and choose to ignore or disregard every flaw and failing of Trump.

Quite a hair raising watch when you realise that contrary to India, US is a gun country:
saip
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by saip »

Some one came to this rally in a Private Jet all the way from Texas.
Cyrano
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Cyrano »

Right ! Being a poor rural American doesn't explain this behaviour. Being a White Racial Supremacist American with doubtful education explains Trumpism. Most though not all Trumpists fall under this category. Thats why you see confederate flags, Camp Aushwitz, Don't Tread On Me shirts, combat outfits and MAGA hats.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by rpartha »

“Some analysis on Biden team and its impact on India...
{link deleted}”

Mod Note

this is the kind of post that does NOT belong here.
Suraj
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Suraj »

Mod Note

What this thread is NOT for:
- US domestic political news updates
- your own US domestic political debating
- India/US ties

Q: “Then what do I post here ?”
Q: “I don’t understand what this thread is about then ?”
A: original material and insight into how and why the US society came to behave the way it does. Why does US worship guns but not Canada or Australia ? Why has racial relationships been a big deal for it for so long ? Why does it covet political topics like abortion that didn’t even matter to its own politics a generation ago ? Why can’t the US have a socially center right but economically center left party ? What are some things US did really well or really badly and what lessons does it hold ? Any other such interesting question.

If you have a one line answer to such questions, you’ve probably failed. Understanding comes from being able to see the problem from multiple perspectives. This thread is to look at different perspectives.
Y. Kanan
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Y. Kanan »

Cyrano wrote:America is a nation created and sustained on bloodshed and injustice to natives, blacks, immigrants, women, minorities, Vietnamese, Iraqis, Afghans... done by White Christians, mostly male. They know it. Many of them feel a need to own guns because they live in a constant anxiety and fear that violent retribution is just around the corner, thats why the compulsive jingo rhetoric. These people are highly susceptible to conspiracy theories, flat-earthers, moon landing denier loonies. America and RoW underestimated the extent of these loonies in he population, thinking they are mostly fringe, rural, low educated and poor.

Trump's 2016 campaign and election was a big alert for me. That anxiety and fear drives many more Americans than I ever suspected before. That the moral squalor of one half the nation living on credit and cheap Chinese goods with "eat, drink, destroy and be merry, for tomorrow we'll die" attitude, shows that it is actually living in despair, and knows deep down how precarious it is and wants to blame someone else to avoid looking critically at itself. Trump cashed in, presenting himself as a unique saviour. But unlike Jesus who took mankind's sins upon him to save humanity (if you believe such a thing), Trump sinned more than anyone, and openly, brazenly, to legitimise such behaviour. This is very appealing to anyone anxious and afraid because now the person holding the highest office in the most powerful nation is showing day & night, how easy it is to getaway with it. This half got energised with Trump acting as a lightning rod. Realising they have nothing to lose, they have bared fangs, ready to settle its scores with the other half of the nation.

This could be the beginning of America's downfall, and I hope that it will not come to that.
This just sounds ridiculous to me. You're image of American whites appears to have been formed by the media and not real life experience. Let me tell you something: I lived in Baltimore and all this nonsense you hear about the white oppressors and the downtrodden blacks is just that: a bunch of nonsense.

I encountered 100x more racism and hostility from blacks than I ever did from whites, the vast majority of whom I had very positive interactions with. I also observed far more racism AGAINST blacks from asians, latinos, my fellow Indians, and other minorities, while whites always struck me as being the most tolerant (white guilt). Indeed, whites remind me of hindus, in the sense that half of them are so indoctrinated with self-hatred and guilt that they actually root for their own demise.

Perhaps if I'd lived in some rural backwater, my experiences would have been different, but in the huge racial melting pot of Baltimore, I found the leftist narrative about whites to be utter propaganda.

I'm not denying the phenomenon of white racism, but offering some balance to the prevailing narrative.
sudarshan
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by sudarshan »

Y. Kanan wrote: This just sounds ridiculous to me. You're image of American whites appears to have been formed by the media and not real life experience. Let me tell you something: I lived in Baltimore and all this nonsense you hear about the white oppressors and the downtrodden blacks is just that: a bunch of nonsense.
...
Some sweeping generalizations in the above. IMHO, both views are true. Many whites truly have the guilt complex. Many feign it. And many also act as oppressors. May not be in the sense of racial superiority (as in - white color superior to black color - I believe there are very very few who still believe that), but based on what they perceive as the behavior of blacks - unwilling to get a real education, living off the guilt complex, getting into crime. "We're giving you a chance now, why not get off your lazy bums and make something of yourselves?" More of that kind of frustration than anything else.

Racism from the blacks towards Desis - again, I doubt it has to do with actual "skin-color" racism. The blacks see Indians come to the US in droves. They don't see Indians stagnate into low-income, crime-ridden neighborhoods. "How did these folks get so ahead of us, man?" Plus the perception of Indians as wimps, pushovers, veggie weaklings. No strength in their puny bodies, bookish, four-eyed, getting ahead in wimpy nerdy occupations like spelling bees. How many Indians do you see dominating in basketball or baseball or football? The blacks do that big time. Instead, those Indians (and Asians in general) like to play *badminton!* What's that, man, not even a contact sport. I think the "racism" is more along those lines. Aryan superiority and stuff is passe, like I said, there might be a few nutcases who believe in that, but not very many.

As for the native Americans. The very few times I've met or interacted with them, they seem genuinely bewildered by how these folks, who kind of share the name "Indian" with them, got so far ahead in STEM fields. The native Americans, from an Indian POV, seem to have their priorities backwards. They want to hold on to their past. Their bows and arrows, live on the land in reservations the way their ancestors did, hold on to all the physical trappings of their earlier, "ideal" way of life. The "east" Indians on the other hand - they have no qualms in dumping their past wholesale, and embracing the "modern" way. When the "east" Indians talk of "preserving their past and their heritage," it is on an entirely different wavelength. India holds on to its tradition in the form of culture, religion, soft power. India throws away, with both hands, material trappings of the past, such as nomadic ways, bows and arrows, grinding stones, village schools - and whole-heartedly adopts shirts and pants, modern schools, hospitals, universities, modern armies and navies and air forces. While managing to hold onto the *spirit* of its traditions. The native Americans, OTOH, can't quite let go of their material past. Whereas, their spiritual past is dead and gone, replaced by Xtianity. What a paradox. Truly bewildering for a native American to comprehend how these people, supposedly representative of a great, hoary culture and tradition, manage to thrive and flourish and get ahead in these "modern" pursuits. And they are so secure, not like they are trying to fit in - they genuinely *do* fit in to the modern ways!

So once again - not quite "racism." More like misplaced priorities, insecurity, dismissiveness and contempt born of jealousy.
Cyrano
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Cyrano »

I've lived in the US for some years too. I wrote the above mainly regarding the Trumpist/MAGA riot mob mentality.

Of course and thank god, not all Americans are tied to their bloody past. In north-eastern melting pots like Baltimore, NY, Boston and many other cities on the west coast, I found mostly wonderful white people as colleagues, friends, neighbours, occasional dates. My experience has been that as you move to the middle and south, or urban to rural, things start changing quite significantly when you try to picture the mentality of an "average white American".

There are more and more "codes" to signal where you fit in, what you associate with, right from the car/truck you drive to where you eat, dress, what sports/hobbies you indulge in, what you collect, where you hang out. And more the points of intersection you have with some "average white American", the more accepted you are by that person.

I've had some degree of interaction with black Americans as well, but not enough to say one way or other about how racist they can be. Perhaps they too look for a lot of points of intersection like the whites, just different ones.

Seems to me that everyone wants to be different from others (freedom of expression, individuality and all that) but wants to associate mostly with others who are like themselves. This bipolar nature can throw up some interesting behaviours and phenomenon, benign, funny or radical and dangerous. Many such behaviours can be interpreted as racist if they show lack of respect and decency.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Najunamar »

Many years ago, I had a couple of black colleagues with whom I had some exceptionally deep discussions- one was stuck in a menial job (factory work) and the other middle class engineering position. Both had very real negative experiences to share that were entirely different magnitude compared with what we as east Indians get to feel in my view.
However, there is a palpable divide within their experiences based on educational qualifications- what Sudarahanji said is right, whites/other races tend to view those who complain of an uneven playing field as not quite putting in the efforts to "pull themselves by their bootstraps" this is in stark contrast to even their views if working class whites
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by sanjaykumar »

In downtown LA once,I happened to ask something of a young black man on the street. I was coming in from Canada.

He looked at me as if I had just landed from Mars. Further on my walk I saw spray painted signs “Kill nigger now”, “spear-chuckers out”.

I quietly understood that only a brother talks to another brother.

I can’t even say I blame him. I transgressed his sad and unjust world. I hope things are different now in downtown LA.
Somehow I don’t think so.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by mappunni »

saip wrote:Some one came to this rally in a Private Jet all the way from Texas.
That's near me Saar! She was arrested.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by venkat_r »

The response to the events is going to be massive and do expect the cases and justice to drag on for some time.

Well there are the people on both sides of the spectrum and though everyone has their own opinions, not to their own facts. The fringe and conspiracy theories have to deal with reality at some point, but they felt like they got a voice and Trump was able to very successfully use the fear and touch the raw nerve among most to favor him in voting. Have seen and also been surprised at how many are closet Trump supporters and how many openly support him.

And a massive 75 M voted for him does tell a story, and that kind of support is not going to change anytime soon. This is a reality in America and it would be very interesting on which way this group moves, or how they will be split in the future or whom and how their support shifts. Also will the urban rural divide be in balance or shift in any direction?

I do see some issue with connecting India’s right (BJP/Modi) to USA’s right GOP and Trump. I find that that is not right and does not stand even a cursory decent comparison. Does not want to generalize, but found some very crazy arguments from some people in India and in US Indians who somehow convinced themselves that if they support Right wing/BJP or Modi have to support Trump, I fund that such comparisons do not stand even basic scrutiny and even downright childish.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by darshan »

No harm in harnessing 75M for the cause of china. Learn from the best. Handlers of khujli do not insult him but use him.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by venkat_r »

Well Trump is almost gone and a couple of lame duck days left for now, let’s see how and what GOP does and where do these people go, but it is going to be difficult to predict how and what is believed by the conspiracy theorists. Most of the people are very normal people who are general hard working good people but not sure what %, but have a lot of people with extreme far right views. Trump has somehow managed to bring these people to the forefront or embolden them enough that they feel they have to come out on the street and can and should do something. Trump did start a movement, which will have consequences long after he is gone.

I have a lot of trust on Indian diplomats and bureaucrats in Washington watching this and would love to see their take on this and how they see that events might shape up.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by darshan »

Why is it that US public has forgotten about china and its exploitation of the chinese virus? IIRC, there are more local bodies in US that had something to say anti Hindu than say anything anti china. chinese genocide muslims but no local body in US was observed to take an offense to it. US missed the golden opportunity to have a vote on where US public stands on chinese issues during the national election in November.

Holding chinese accountable and making them pay for it can unite and heal America. Will US politicians do it?
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by vijayk »

https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/01/ ... a-do-over/
This Time, There May Not Be a Do-Over
Historically, great civilizations self-immolate before they suffer external defeat. Often the seeds of decline are planted at a time when a great power seems to be at the pinnacle of its control and influence. Though it may be hard to accept, this seems to be increasingly the fate of America today, where a toxic mix of ever-more unaccountable elites, frayed internal culture and class warfare, and inflamed racial divisions has begun to splinter the most successful democratic republic in history into a nation of warring tribes. The United States seems poised to emerge from the rubble left in the wake of the last four years diminished, showing traits normally associated with unstable third-world governments.

The regnant intolerance-turned-mistrust on both sides of the political divide has largely buried the traditional American propensity for compromise. The attendant coarsening of the language of our public debate and the morphing of major American media networks into propaganda outlets have knocked down one by one democratic practices and customs that took generations to build. Yet the extremist politics that have dominated our public discourse of late have deep structural roots going back decades.

The last 30 years have laid the groundwork for the implosion of our national consensus — and with it, the foundations of American global hegemony. The past four years have accelerated the process possibly to a point of no return, with the systemic decay delegitimizing our institutions and decomposing societal bonds in the United States itself. The United States is at risk of losing its hegemonic position not because of a major defeat in war, but because for decades it has been governed by elites implementing policy ideas that the majority of the public never fully endorsed. Moreover, our rising corporate oligarchy and political class have never accepted accountability for the decisions they have made, such as the offshoring of U.S. industry and open-ended wars in secondary theaters; nor have they paid much of a price in terms of power and access. The American political system has been hobbled by corporate interests, party politics, and foreign influence to a point that there are few systemic mechanisms in place to allow men and women of quality to rise to positions of leadership. In the process, the American middle class — the county’s demos — has become diminished to a point that it is no longer a self-constituting citizenry, for the globalist ideology that fueled the offshoring of our industrial base to China has pulled the rug out from under the middle class and gutted entire communities
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Suraj »

Mod Note

Thread cleaned up . This is not a thread for day to day US political news. There’s no BRF tread for that - please find another forum for such conversations.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by vera_k »

darshan wrote:Why is it that US public has forgotten about china and its exploitation of the chinese virus? IIRC, there are more local bodies in US that had something to say anti Hindu India than say anything anti china. chinese genocide muslims but no local body in US was observed to take an offense to it.
Thank you for making this comparison. This is strange indeed. It is possible that the Communist Party of China is bribing or otherwise compromising officials on US local bodies. There has been a lot of investment in residential real estate originating out of China, so the thought is not that far fetched.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by darshan »

vera_k wrote: Thank you for making this comparison. This is strange indeed. It is possible that the Communist Party of China is bribing or otherwise compromising officials on US local bodies. There has been a lot of investment in residential real estate originating out of China, so the thought is not that far fetched.
The feedback loop as one would have been worried about in 1960s had obviously closed long ago to bribe within US. However, almost three decades have gone by and US has not done anything. It's almost like US never created plan B and was banking on G2 theory as plan B all this time.

By feedback loop, I mean the loop where US handed over dollars to china and all those dollars coming back to US in the manner that didn't hurt US. Obviously US gloriously failed to keep control of dollars in chinese hands with all those dollars ending up everywhere in the world including US to enable various chinese plans.

In the end, just like islamists, chinese also have lot of money in US to execute plans as required. Both sort of run parallel systems with closed knit communities.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by nvishal »

If the US demography has indeed changed, it signals the end of the Republican rule forever. If US experiences civilian distrust/conflict, it will have an effect on their ability to project power globally. It may break NATO and force some white countries to switch allegiance to Russia.

It's a bit too far fetched but possible in the longrun.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by darshan »

nvishal wrote:If the US demography has indeed changed, it signals the end of the Republican rule forever. If US experiences civilian distrust/conflict, it will have an effect on their ability to project power globally. It may break NATO and force some white countries to switch allegiance to Russia.

It's a bit too far fetched but possible in the longrun.
The demography has obviously been changed and Republicans did take axe to their feet by opening up surplus states for other population to move in. However, it's too early to predict any demises. Let's not forget the history of this people. Nothing but bloodshed. They don't think twice before dialing in required corrections. Nimble and agile with no valuation to lives.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by SRajesh »

On a news today heard that the first action of the President Biden is to rescind all Trump's order's!! including to re-join WHO etc.
Wonder what that means for the Dragon?? :eek: :eek:
Even though the nominated Defence Sec spoke about Quad and India as a Major Defence Partner, the Far left cabal in the Biden Admin may Hijack this presidency in the coming months :roll: .
And the news anchor gleefully announced that Kamala Harris as the First Black woman Vice-President :lol: :lol: so much for our brethren there and in India claiming her as our Mylapore Mami
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by sanjaykumar »

Blackness is an autosomal dominant genetic trait. Thus offspring of white-black unions are always black. Never white.
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