Understanding the US - Again

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vera_k
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by vera_k »

In that case, Adani's response could just have stated that they are not required to disclose that information. Yes, the intent of the question is to suggest there was wrongdoing and that is why it was not disclosed as would have otherwise been done.
srikandan
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by srikandan »

vera_k: Adani's response could just have stated that they are not required to disclose that information.
That just opens the door for more slandering. "what is AE hiding that he cannot disclose such information?" would be the next question if AE responds "we know but we won't tell you", (along the lines of "have you stopped beating your spouse?"). Answering questions that are not honest in intent is usually self-defeating, since the answer was never a priority (as it was already known) when the question was asked.
vijayk
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by vijayk »

Image
vera_k
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by vera_k »

srikandan wrote:That just opens the door for more slandering. "what is AE hiding that he cannot disclose such information?" would be the next question if AE responds "we know but we won't tell you",
So the theory is that it is better to claim ignorance rather than do what's required just in this case? Its a publicly listed company that's professionally audited.

Two sides to the coin - for every existing investor taking a bath at the moment because of the fall in Adani's market value, there's a future investor who's thankful for not investing at inflated valuations or worse in a ponzi scheme.
srikandan
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by srikandan »

vera_k: So the theory is that it is better to claim ignorance rather than do what's required just in this case? Its a publicly listed company that's professionally audited.
Right, so if there are any shenanigans in Adani's books the professional audit will reveal it. So if the audit does not reveal any malfeasance, I don't see why the funding sources of one of the investors is any of AE's responsibility. Of course, hindenburg covered their criminal white butts by also accusing the auditors of incompetence and malfeseance.
Two sides to the coin - for every existing investor taking a bath at the moment because of the fall in Adani's market value, there's a future investor who's thankful for not investing at inflated valuations or worse in a ponzi scheme.
That is only one side of the coin as both categories include losers and no winners. LIC has 70% returns to this day in the 0.8% holding adani stock.

"for every investor taking a bath and future investor etc., there is an investor who is going to be enjoying good RoI long term"

that's two sides of the coin.

Between Hindenburg and AE, only one of them in under investigation for fraud and has a ban on even operating in some countries. It is very "heartening" to see "patriots" give more credence to white-collar criminals commtting a new crime than a company has performed very well and has been above board all this while.

https://www.thestreet.com/markets/doj-o ... edge-funds
he U.S. Department of Justice has opened a criminal probe into the practices of hedge fund and research firms that rely on short selling, Bloomberg News reported Friday, less than a day after a note from Hindenburg hived nearly $1 billion from the market value of Tecnoglass.

Bloomberg said the investigation will be run by the DoJ's Los Angeles office, with help from Federal prosecutors, and will focus on how, or if, hedge funds track stocks targeted by the research firms prior to the publication of reports on specific
vera_k
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by vera_k »

I'll say I trust Hindenburg's motives for making money more than Adani at this point. The last similar operation with related party transactions they exposed out of India (EROS) was delisted just last month from the NYSE.
srikandan
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by srikandan »

vera_k: I'll say I trust Hindenburg's motives for making money more than Adani at this point. The last similar operation with related party transactions they exposed out of India (EROS) was delisted just last month from the NYSE.
That's just splendid -- give yourself a prize.

I would trust a company that GoI has considered to have the capability to build infrastructure in the Indian Ocean Region, as a national endeavor and is trying to get the funding to do it. This is an existential national security issue for India and I do not see GoI take this lightly, and allowing just about anyone to be involved in these projects.

India controlling the IOR is a long term loss for the the nazis running EU and US, so they are exposing their hand prematurely, and so they should.

Here's a question: If Hindenburg has the werewithal to scan the books of Adani Enterprises, they also have the werewithal to look into the books of any of the firms investing in AE, so if they know something is wrong, they do not need an explanation from AE, do they?
vera_k
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by vera_k »

Oh, the company can be trusted to get work done, sure. That does not imply it is being done at the right price and that the promoters are not ripping the GoI and the public off. If things are above board, I don't get the need for the dubious transactions. Given the price action on the NSE, Indian investors don't trust them enough to support the stock price either.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by srikandan »

Oh, the company can be trusted to get work done, sure. That does not imply it is being done at the right price and that the promoters are not ripping the GoI and the public off. If things are above board, I don't get the need for the dubious transactions.
Yes, of course, any one off the street can build massive ports that are up to modern standards, eh? Exactly what information advantage do you think you have over people who make such judgement calls with far more information? do tell.

What transaction is dubious here exactly? Someone investing in AE is not a "dubious transaction" unless there is a paper trail to show for it, which would show up in a professional audit, as you mention. This is all getting to Rahul Gandhi IQ level here, if you are going to pretend that investing in a firm is a "transaction". For the record, no mortals are a match for the IQ of Rahul Gandhi, who can grow a beard and walk the earth just like that.

Given the price action on the NSE, Indian investors don't trust them enough to support the stock price either.
LIC is an Indian Investor and is audited by professionals, and they do not have a problem with Adani, but you seem to know better than them just from reading the papers. very impressive, really.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by vimal »

The amount of credence that Indians give to two bit goras is mind boggling. How bout we trust Adani and Indian government for once. Anytime you see BiF and Pappu elated means India is losing. See them complain and India is winning.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by ramana »

vera_k
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by vera_k »

srikandan wrote:LIC is an Indian Investor and is audited by professionals, and they do not have a problem with Adani, but you seem to know better than them just from reading the papers. very impressive, really.
Does LIC know that Adani is having a 50% off sale? Maybe you need to call them and let them know :wink: ?
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by srikandan »


Does LIC know that Adani is having a 50% off sale? Maybe you need to call them and let them know ?
Really, that's your response? eff your smiley if you don't have a point to make and make it personal.

The strategic projects are now backed by sovereign governments with skin in the game, so you can take your 'joke' and shove it.

https://idrw.org/adani-group-acquires-s ... 2-billion/

https://www.straitstimes.com/business/a ... share-sale

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/a ... r-AA16TC5T

https://infra.economictimes.indiatimes. ... a/93353461

Some factual reporting here from Asian news sources

https://www.thenationalnews.com/busines ... onfidence/
The Adani Group, which comprises half a dozen major companies, put up about $300 million worth of shares to maintain its collateral cover on a $1 billion loan, Bloomberg News reported on January 31. The loan was made by a group of banks, including Barclays.
The news about 520M backing is from Feb 1 after the above event
Dinesh Khara, chairman of State Bank of India, the country’s biggest lender, told Bloomberg that its loans to the Adani Group are backed by cash-generating assets and overseas exposure was “nominal”.

The lender has given loans of as much as $2.6 billion to companies in the Adani conglomerate, or about half of what is allowed under the rules, according to a source.

Earlier, on Thursday, Indian lender IDFC First Bank said it was “comfortable” with its ties to Mr Adani.

Its outstanding funded exposure represents only 0.06 per cent of the bank’s funded assets while the non-funded outstanding amount is 0.51 per cent. The lender said it was receiving payments on schedule.
Adani Ports and SEZ is the largest private sector port developer and operator in India handling 12 strategically located ports and terminals
A company this is profitably operating the busiest and most profitable commercial ports on the planet is apparently an investment risk.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by ricky_v »

guys, guys, we really do not have enough people onboard to lose some to internecine blue-on-blue warfare; in this conflict, the point to ponder is on:
the leverage foreign monies has on domestic market and its capability to wipe off wealth in all industries, but certainly the one now deemed critical for development, and on the means of insulating the swing from such movement and / or on hearsay.

At the end of the day, both sides have put forward their argument, the sentiment of the market and the strength of the compliance system will decide on the right party, it may not be the justly correct one, only need to ensure that system is so robust / open and reasonably insulated at the same time that such findings do not cause such dramas in the future
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by srikandan »

Hindenburg didn't just "put an argument". With the involvement of US government agencies, a bunch of white-collar criminals effectively knifed various projects necessary for India to control its neighbourhood in the long term. This is war on India and its interests, and compliance and good behavior etc. are not going to stop this from happening in the future and cause even more harm.

Nothing unexpected. A bunch of racist, neo-colonizer countries ((US/EU) that are petty minded enough to weaponize sports, and bully little girls in the olympics,are not going to just stand idly by while India builds capabilities that will challenge their hegemony in the IOR long term.
ricky_v
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by ricky_v »

what you say is correct, but the matter is now solely in the court of market sentiments, either they will accede that regulations are in place or that they have been subverted, the investors only care about the returns, government arms will try to influence this decision, but again that will be reactive, what the government can do is to minimise fallout in the future, because it will continue unabated.

also, it must be said, a cohesive us is not in india's interest, their attention must be diverted to the fissures in their own internal policies, otherwise the usdept will manifest their monroe doctrine worldwide, no two ways to it
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by NRao »

I agree with @ramana, this Adani event is the American version of Galwan.

This is about two things: taking the Russian side and also having the guts to stand up and demand to be counted as a pole in a new multipolar world order.

It cannot be viewed in isolation. This is not about markets.

Just as China wanted India to heel, the US is telling India to heel.

The only thing I would be concerned about is if India had not gamed such a scenario (attack on a major Indian + NSA visit to the US with a boatload of ministers). IMO India failed to game the Galwan incident. And, we hear that the Chinese come across every year in the Yangtse area of the Tawang Sector.

Poles have to be prepared to act, not react.

Need to return this serve.

I would love to see the Global South invest, as a block, in Adani. Russia too.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by vera_k »

What surprises me is the reaction this is generating in India. Short selling is a normal part of market operation. And we don't hear much about any short sellers out of India (perhaps due to SEBI regulation). Its not too surprising then that someone spots an opportunity and grabs it. Yes, it should have been done by someone operating out of Mumbai, like when the 90's era Mehta scam unraveled, but so what?
fanne
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by fanne »

Vera_k,
I am highly enlighten by your knowledge. Thou presence on this board is a grace. Are you incarnation of a higher being?
If mere mortal, please suggest what path you took in life to be at these commanding heights. I can use that as a guide to suggest new students. Can you please share your secret.
If you are a very famous and or a very rich person, please share that so that we can pray to thou.
NRao
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by NRao »

vera_k wrote:What surprises me is the reaction this is generating in India. Short selling is a normal part of market operation. And we don't hear much about any short sellers out of India (perhaps due to SEBI regulation). Its not too surprising then that someone spots an opportunity and grabs it. Yes, it should have been done by someone operating out of Mumbai, like when the 90's era Mehta scam unraveled, but so what?
So, is it a common practice to issue a report that a company is crooked and at the same time short their stock?

Set fire to your home and pocket the insurance money?

I can recall the days when Elon Musk complained profusely when short sellers targetted Tesla - there were no indicators whatsoever that the company was doing poorly.

So, trying to understand the situation, what exactly was the opportunity here? As far as I can see it was a report they themselves published.

________________________________

And, if it is Indians who sold their stocks in Adani, then what is there to say? Gulami ke din aa gaye. Beat the retreat.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by NRao »

Only as a FYI. I am shorting Hindenburg

Feb 18, 2022 : DOJ Investigates Short-Sellers For Potential Trading Abuses Including ‘Spoofing’ And ‘Scalping’
Prominent firms and short-sellers also mentioned in DOJ requests for information include Melvin Capital and founder Gabe Plotkin, researcher Nate Anderson and Hindenburg Research, as well as Sophos Capital Management and Jim Carruthers, among others.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by chetak »

NRao wrote:
vera_k wrote:What surprises me is the reaction this is generating in India. Short selling is a normal part of market operation. And we don't hear much about any short sellers out of India (perhaps due to SEBI regulation). Its not too surprising then that someone spots an opportunity and grabs it. Yes, it should have been done by someone operating out of Mumbai, like when the 90's era Mehta scam unraveled, but so what?
So, is it a common practice to issue a report that a company is crooked and at the same time short their stock?

Set fire to your home and pocket the insurance money?

I can recall the days when Elon Musk complained profusely when short sellers targetted Tesla - there were no indicators whatsoever that the company was doing poorly.

So, trying to understand the situation, what exactly was the opportunity here? As far as I can see it was a report they themselves published.

________________________________

And, if it is Indians who sold their stocks in Adani, then what is there to say? Gulami ke din aa gaye. Beat the retreat.
Indian investors have the right to protect themselves and their investments, based on their perceptions of the market and the risks that they are forced to factor in as part of the (stampeding) herd mentality.

Unfortunately, there is a lesson to be learnt here for everyone including the promotors, lenders (in country, as well as, offshore), investors, the regulators, and also, the GoI which has been frozen like a deer in the headlights with the clever information war that has been unleashed by the BIF.

Welcome to the big leagues and all the risks that it entails, especially, if the GoI has no conception of a information war scenario and not even the dimmest clue about how to tackle it

Ambani is the next target

SEBI should have come out with a statement.

All the hindenburg info (is out in the public domain) and open source and can be easily traced back to Adani's own documents filed before various regulatory authorities

Adani owns a major chunk of his own stock and any melt down will not cause a big panic in the retail investing community as their liabilities are capped to their own holdings
Lisa
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Lisa »

Absolutely, eg, do BP and Shell ask their investors the source of their funds? Then why Adani?

In the UK recently Anil Ambani was sued by a Chinese bank for an unpaid loan and for a moment the judge was asking him why his richer brother could not pay his debts! Think about this, your family, if it has money, is liable for your debts! Obviously this action failed as their is no legal basis to enforce a debt on his brother but they tried.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Cyrano »

If the market was confident that Adani was running a clean as a whistle operation since years and till date, the markets would not have tanked his stock by over 60%.

AE stock appreciated 20x in 36 months. He ventured into multiple sectors at break neck speed, with such a huge personal holding and low float this is not just another stock in the market.

The publicity of being as rich as Bezos, Musk etc makes the whole world sit up and take notice, which is a boon and a curse.

Yes, Adani has delivered in some flagship infra projects, deserves our appreciation but so have many
others. Adani = India is not a useful parallel to draw.

Coming to Indian regulators, they have been born and grew under terribly corrupt Congi and coalition regimes for decades. Their clean chits based on auditors Indian or phoren don't really mean much. Remember Satyam? It's audit reports were clean and SEBI was none the wiser. Regulators, SEBI or SEC are reactive and wake up when it hits the fan. Like FTX did.

If Adani pulled the FPO they probably had an idea of what was to come. There will be such raids in future as India's corporates grow big. Well run companies will resist and bounce back. Let's see if Adani does as well.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by drnayar »

I think the Adani/India perspective needs to be understood from an understanding that every state needs "non state" actors to promote its geopolitical interests. Adani is very much aligned to this goal. But so should be other industrialists but that has been lacking for a long time.
One needs to think behind the scenes of what all has been happening. India US discussions, Nulands appearancee in India , "TOT" of jet engine and definitely the convenient timing of Hindenburg's short selling can't all be too coincidental
This is a classical "carrot and stick" approach by the US to contain India. They want to take off Indias argument that India is dependent on Russia for its weapons requirements., which actually will not improve Indias security in anyway using safeguards they would build into each and every agreement.
BRFites need to carefully watch new statements coming from GOI and US state dept, they would tighten the noose before the upcoming elections when Modi is most vulnerable.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by vijayk »

^^ yep
The immediate statements of citi and credit Suisse confirm this. Very coordinated strategy.
Internal agents have been activated. Who is shorting in India? They are mostly owned by Foreign instotutional investors. Very less holding by MF and individuals
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by NRao »

The Big League.

A 2 min trailer of the famous 1-hour-long "Spiders Web" (the full version is free on YT), shows how corrupt the Western financial system is.

IMVVHO, India is not prepared for the world stage. India will lead, but only because others will collapse.

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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by srikandan »

IMVVHO, India is not prepared for the world stage. India will lead, but only because others will collapse.
But power is never just transferred because states go weak, especially predatory neo-colonial states that armed to the teeth. They will impose global conflict and Armageddon before their death grip is released.

Currently a majority of those who can really defend India are only now getting out of abject poverty since 2014. To get ahead, India's playbook has to be decidedly different from the colonizers, since acting on a low-budget copy of the colonial playbook won't help India. India is already a player and only now finding it's feet. Need a little time to clean house,grow and flourish before war is imposed.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Vayutuvan »

NRao wrote:Only as a FYI. I am shorting Hindenburg
Nice but that gasbag company is an LLC. :P
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by g.sarkar »

https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/news ... se-pm-modi
Anti-India cabal in US State Department manipulated online discourse on PM Modi: Ex US diplomat
Abhinandan Mishra, February 4, 2023

NEW DELHI: Mike Benz, a former senior diplomat with the State Department of the United States of America, has claimed that biased elements in the US foreign policy establishment waged a campaign against Prime Minister Narendra Modi and the BJP in the run-up to India’s 2019 general elections.
According to Benz, despite PM Modi sharing excellent relations with then then US President Donald Trump, these elements within the administration, along with social media tech giants, influential think tanks and officials of the State Department were working together to paint PM Modi’s electoral success as the result of a “misinformation campaign”. The Sunday Guardian spoke to Benz. Edited excerpts:
Q: Can you share your professional background, including your stint with the State Department?
A: I was Deputy Assistant Secretary for International Communications and Information Technology at the US State Department from Fall 2020 through January 2021. I am the Executive Director of the Foundation for Freedom Online (FFO), a non-profit watchdog dedicated to protecting digital liberties and restoring the free and open Internet.
Previously, I was in charge of the cyber and “Big Tech” portfolios for the US State Department, where I served as Deputy Assistant Secretary for International Communications and Information Technology. That role included formulating and negotiating US policy on cyber issues as well as interfacing with private industry and civil society in the Big Tech space.
.......
Gautam
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by drnayar »

vera_k wrote:What surprises me is the reaction this is generating in India. Short selling is a normal part of market operation. And we don't hear much about any short sellers out of India (perhaps due to SEBI regulation). Its not too surprising then that someone spots an opportunity and grabs it. Yes, it should have been done by someone operating out of Mumbai, like when the 90's era Mehta scam unraveled, but so what?

Just have a look at the background of Hidenburg, their activities, who are involved and the timing of their operation. Granted short selling is a "normal" operation in western countries where stock markets and books are maintained as such in liquidity., but NOT India. To short sell shares of Indian companies like those of Adani., one needs literally deep knowledge into Indian financial markets and Adani finances only an Indian industrialist would have access that too only in the top tier ones. coming days will reveal that.
The timing also too convenient.
Did you follow pappu s "rath yatra" .. chap was recorded saying precisely that ambani adani and co were living on govt largesse as if he knew what was going on.. all too coincidental? No there are no coincidences. there is a lot into this effort into the Adani "short selling" and i do not believe is normal practice.

Every country needs its "chaebols" .. Adani Ambani etc should rise and we should cheer them !.. Did anyone think the world financial system is fair ? What is money eventually when one country can print itself whatever it needs ? What did the wall street crash of 2008 teach ? Like it or not the whole "financial" system is a immense bubble waiting to burst.

If you cant beat it better join in THEIR fu@king game. Sorry for the rant . But India needs its champions whichever way they can be created.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Adrija »

+ 108

Anybody who rants about crony capitalism conveniently forgets what it took for the Huawei and Samsungs and Dassault and Naval and Thales and Siemens and Boeing and Lockheed and countless others to become what they are now

If anything, I would submit that India does not do enough of economic nationalism

We need to play the game as it is played by others. We need not one but many many more Adanis a
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by NRao »

chetak
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by chetak »

Wonder how many, "I don't recall," are we going to get.......

Vijaya Gadde, Yoel Roth, and Jim Baker are testifying under oath before the House Oversight Committee this week.


https://www.yahoo.com/now/former-twitte ... 22662.html
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by RobinM »

Anyone know what the size of Hindenburg's bet is?
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by NRao »

'Possible that Hindenburg was indulging in hyperbole': Aswath Damodaran says Adani Group competent player in infra business

Aswath Damodaran values Adani Enterprises stock at ₹947 per share
Hindenburg was indulging in hyperbole when it described Adani to be "the biggest con" in history. A con game to me has no substance at its core, and its only objective is to fool other people, and part them from their money. Adani, notwithstanding all of its flaws, is a competent player in a business (infrastructure), which, especially in India, is filled with frauds and incompetents. A more nuanced version of the Adani story is that the family group has exploited the seams and weakest links in the India story, to its advantage, and that there are lessons for the nation as a whole, as it looks towards what it hopes will be its decade of growth, " Damodaran, Professor of Finance at the Stern School of Business at New York University, said in his blog post.
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Cyrano »

Is this the apogee of contemporary American culture ?

Tanaji
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by Tanaji »

The singer is British I think
chetak
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by chetak »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDJJ483kvGQ


Rep. Mace Speaks at Oversight Hearing on Twitter Censorship







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ2fV-XnLk0


'Mr. Roth, I'm Going To Refresh Your Memory For You': Luna Confronts Ex-Twitter Executive


chetak
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Re: Understanding the US - Again

Post by chetak »

jack on crack has left his employees holding the bag

Elon Musk@elonmusk·7 Feb

Going forward, Twitter will be broadly accepting of different values, rather than trying to impose its own specific values on the world
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