Understanding the US- Again

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Lalmohan
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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Lalmohan » 09 May 2018 22:43

Lalmohan wrote:he will ask tell the Saudis, emiratis and qataris to buy more boeing and LM products

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby hanumadu » 09 May 2018 23:16

Chinese exports fell from about 40% of GDP in 2016 to under 20% of GDP in 2016. It must be even less today. Its internal consumption grew from 40% to 60% of GDP. The situation may not be as dire for China as DT imagines it to be.

The rest of the world must be getting tired of US by now. They might already be planning to reduce their dependence and trade with the US. It was foolish of EU to not have an intel or google of their own. They gave a free ride to the US in technology and were content with the US footing the bill for their security and wars.

US is picking up fights with it's allies when it's relative prosperity is on the decline and its allies might be able to find other trading partners now relatively easily than was the case a few years ago.

The EU instead of encouraging growth drivers like high tech by importing skilled workers from India and other places has imported good for nothing extremists from Pakistan, BD, Somalia and Arab lands which has ultimately resulted in Brexit and allowed their own brain drain to the US. Same with Canada. EU should reduce taxes, import skilled, semi skilled and unskilled workers from countries that don't want to bomb them to pieces and look for higher growth in their economies.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby UlanBatori » 10 May 2018 01:35

And the Oiropeans will fight every inch millimeter of the way. So US will have to walk back threats against Airboos in order to let Boeing recoup losses. Which means Airboos fills the deals vacated by Boeing in Eyeran - in the face of heavy Chinese and Russian competition. Why should Iran buy from Airboos? Only if that brings immunity from Oiropean interference in their 400% Bissful Energy Program, and a reasonable level of assurance against Israeli bombing raids.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby g.sarkar » 10 May 2018 02:48

http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/09/news/ec ... index.html
Marketplace Middle East
US sanctions deal body blow to Iran's economy
by Ivana Kottasová
With one signature, President Donald Trump has dealt a major blow to Iran's already struggling economy.
Trump's decision to walk away from the nuclear deal is likely to cost Iran billions in foreign investment, slash growth, deter tourists and deprive its citizens of business opportunities.
"This is a setback on many levels," said Hassan Hakimian, director of the London Middle East Institute at SOAS. "It is bound to be disappointing in terms of the impact on the economic prospects for Iran, and particularly the youth." Analysts had expected a major economic boom in Iran after sanctions were lifted in 2016 in return for Iran rolling back its nuclear program. While that never quite materialized, increased foreign investment and tourism did help support a fragile economic recovery. Economic growth spiked to 6.5% in 2016 after declining by 1.6% the previous year. Inflation fell back into single digits in 2016, oil production surged and the International Monetary Fund was forecasting a rise in living standards.
"People felt the benefits of the deal for sure [but] perhaps not as much as they were hoping for," said Hakimian. Then came a retreat: Growth slowed to 3.3% last year, unemployment nudged up and inflation popped back above 10%. The Iranian rial has plunged against the US dollar in recent months. The currency has lost nearly 23% of its value over the past year, and media reports suggest the decline has been much steeper on black market exchanges. Analysts said that Trump's harsh rhetoric had scared away potential investors, way before his announcement Tuesday that sanctions would be reimposed. "Uncertainty about the survival of the deal effectively killed any appetite of European businesses to risk market (re-)entry in Iran," said Adnan Tabatabai, CEO of the think tank CARPO.The IMF was expecting Iran's economy to grow by 4.3% this year and by 4.5% in 2019. Analysts said Trump's decision to exit the deal makes those figures unrealistic.
........
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/08/investi ... tml?iid=EL
What Trump's Iran decision means for oil and gas prices
by Matt Egan
President Donald Trump chose a dicey time to crack down on Iran, the world's fifth-biggest oil producer.
Global oil supplies were already getting tight before Trump vowed on Tuesday to exit the Iran nuclear deal and impose "powerful" sanctions on the OPEC nation. Energy industry insiders say Trump's tough stance on Iran will probably keep oil and gasoline prices higher than they would otherwise be. Iran ramped up its oil production by 1 million barrels per day after sanctions were lifted in early 2016. At least some of that oil will now be pulled from the market — at a time when oil prices are already rising because of production cuts by OPEC and Russia as well as instability in Venezuela. Dan Eberhart, CEO of oilfield services company Canary LLC, drew a direct connection: "Withdrawing from the Iran nuclear deal will support higher oil prices." Trump telegraphed the move, and oil prices shot up in recent weeks as traders anticipated it. Crude topped $70 a barrel this week for the first time in nearly four years. Hours before Trump's announcement, federal government forecasters raised their estimate for 2018 oil prices by 10.5% to an average of $65.58 a barrel. Crude oil prices swung wildly on Tuesday, eventually climbing back above $70 a barrel later in the day.
......
Gautam

UlanBatori
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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby UlanBatori » 10 May 2018 04:07

Sounds like the hype from e-con Analysts about Sanctiongiri against Yindoostan circa 5/1998.

Senator (R.I.B.) "Strom" Thurmond, no (known) relation to Ambassadora Storm Daniels:
The yindian government has shot themselves in the foot, and maybe in the head!


We know how THAT played out.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby UlanBatori » 10 May 2018 04:19

In the heart of the most lily-white Liberal America... :lol:

What happened at Yale
According to Siyonbola, she was working on a paper in the Hall of Graduate Studies when she fell asleep in a common room. Another female student came in, turned on the lights and told her, "You're not supposed to be sleeping here. I'm going to call the police."
Siyonbola pulled out her phone and recorded 54 seconds of a hallway encounter with the unidentified student, who told her, "I have every right to call the police. You cannot sleep in that room."
After two white police officers arrived and began questioning her in a stairwell, Siyonbola posted 17 minutes of their encounter to Facebook Live.
When Siyonbola asked them about the complaint, one officer said, "She called us (and) said there's somebody who appeared they weren't ... where they were supposed to be."
The 34-year-old grad student in African Studies unlocked her dorm-room door in front of police to show that she lived there, but they still asked for her ID. "We're in a Yale building and we need to make sure that you belong here," the other officer told her.
After some hesitation, Siyonbola handed her ID over. "I really don't know if there's a justification for you actually being in the building," she told the officers, saying she needed to get back to working on her paper.
Eventually two more officers arrived. After some confusion about Siyonbola's ID -- her name was apparently misspelled in a student database {At $80K/yr tuition, why would Yale know how to spell?}-- the police told her she was free to go.

Rudradev
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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Rudradev » 10 May 2018 04:24

^^ UB, I think that quote wasn't Strom Thurmond but another Suthun' blowhard: Senate Foreign Relations Committee pooh-bah-in-chief, Jesse Helms.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Mort Walker » 10 May 2018 04:42

Rudradev wrote:^^ UB, I think that quote wasn't Strom Thurmond but another Suthun' blowhard: Senate Foreign Relations Committee pooh-bah-in-chief, Jesse Helms.


It was actually from Clinton administration officials in particular William Daley from Chicago who was the Secretary of Commerce.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby ramana » 10 May 2018 05:16

Not HalfBright?

UlanBatori
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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby UlanBatori » 10 May 2018 08:27

^ My point is that a determined nation will show the next-ro-ring finger at Sanctions.

But before that: War drums.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/09/middleea ... index.html
Israel claims that Iranian Kuds forces fired 20 mijjiles into Occupied Golan Heights. Apparently all hit by Iron Dome.

Sounds like :(( to rationalize massive air raids to help ISIS who are surrounded inside Syria. Or maybe direct attacks on Iran.

But now will Gen. Vodkov's merry flyers intercept the Israelis flying towards Syria/ Iran?

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby UlanBatori » 10 May 2018 08:40

Boy! This Senator Mohterma K. Harris is a MAJOR p.i.t.a.
In another age she would have been Chief Justice of the CPI(M/L) People's War Group.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Singha » 10 May 2018 09:44

https://theintercept.com/2018/05/01/haj ... g-cia-dea/


THE U.S. QUIETLY RELEASED AFGHANISTAN’S “BIGGEST DRUG KINGPIN” FROM PRISON. DID HE CUT A DEAL?
Johnny Dwyer
May 2 2018, 3:55 a.m.

IN OCTOBER 2008, the Justice Department and the Drug Enforcement Administration heralded the arrest of Haji Juma Khan on narcotics and terror charges. His capture, they said, dealt a punishing blow to the Taliban and the symbiotic relationship between the insurgent group and Afghan drug traffickers.

Yet, unbeknownst to all but the closest observers of the largely forgotten Afghanistan War, Khan was quietly released from Federal Bureau of Prisons custody last month. After nearly 10 years at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in Lower Manhattan, the terms of his release – like nearly everything else about his case – remain shrouded in secrecy.

The secrecy reflects the U.S. government’s conflicted relationship with Khan. Before his arrest, the alleged drug trafficker worked with the CIA and the DEA, received payments from the government, and, at one point, visited Washington and New York on the DEA’s dime. After his arrest, federal prosecutors sought to link Khan’s support for the Taliban to a suicide bombing, as well as a separate attack on a Kabul hotel that killed one American. A trap set by the top DEA official in Kabul ultimately led to his arrest.

Since 2012, the filings in Khan’s case have been under seal. As a result, it is impossible to determine whether he pleaded guilty to any of the charges against him, whether he received a sentence or was ordered to pay restitution to victims, or, upon his release last month, whether he was deported or allowed to remain in the United States.

All this ambiguity suggests that Khan’s relationship with the government did not end with his arrest. The charges in the initial indictment carried a mandatory minimum sentence of 20 years. His release signals that he likely cut another deal, offering cooperation in the hope of obtaining a reduced sentence. Both the office of the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York and the DEA declined to discuss Khan’s release.

Khan’s attorney, Steve Zissou, also would not comment on his client’s case.

Haji Juma Khan, 64, comes from Afghanistan’s Nimruz Province, along the border with Iran and Pakistan. Law enforcement officials have described Khan as “Afghanistan’s biggest drug kingpin … and the leader of one of the largest drug trafficking organizations in the Central Asia region.” The Obama White House designated him as among “the world’s top drug traffickers.” Khan maintained close ties to the Taliban, providing money and weapons to the militants while running an empire that traded tons of heroin and opium, according to investigators. In 2008, the DEA lured Khan to Jakarta, Indonesia, where he was taken into custody and brought to New York. His case became a signature prosecution under a new “narco-terrorism” statute, touted in press releases and congressional testimony as a template for targeting the national security threat posed by the nexus of terrorism and the drug trade.

Gretchen Peters, author of “Seeds of Terror: How Drugs, Thugs, and Crime Are Reshaping the Afghan War,” said Khan’s case “illuminates the competing priorities of different U.S. agencies.”

“The Drug Enforcement Administration is tasked with fighting the drug trade. You see certain agencies of the U.S. government, namely often the CIA, getting in bed with or hiring or putting on their payroll people who are involved in the drug trade, whether it is Ahmed Wali Karzai or Haji Juma Khan,” Peters told The Intercept.
:rotfl:

AFTER THE COLLAPSE of the Taliban government, U.S. forces were forced to confront the reality that Afghanistan was not simply a religious autocracy, but also a narco-state that generates between 2,000 and 9,000 metric tons of opium each year. A handful of traffickers dominated the drug economy, including Haji Bagcho Sherzai, Haji Bashir Noorzai, and Haji Juma Khan. Each of those three men would be targeted by the DEA and federal prosecutors; Sherzai and Noorzai were tried and convicted in federal court and sentenced to life in prison. Khan is the outlier: His case never went to trial, and the outcome remains a secret.

Nearly as soon as Khan entered a Manhattan courtroom in October of 2008, the sensitivity of his relationship with the U.S. government presented problems. In a January 2009 status conference, Sabrina Shroff, a federal public defender representing Khan, pointed to government evidence that discussed “several law enforcement agencies from the United States approaching people in Afghanistan, including Mr. Khan, and requesting assistance, and as I understand it … payments made, services requested from my client and others.”

The prosecutor, Assistant U.S. Attorney Eugene Ingoglia, cautioned, “I think we should be careful if we are talking about agencies that are not DEA to avoid inadvertently making any kind of disclosure of classified information.”

Over the last decade, Khan only appeared in open court three more times, including once to plead “not guilty” to a superseding indictment brought by the government in April of 2009; his final public hearing occurred a year later.

Despite the lack of discernible public results, officials have touted the law enforcement work that led to Khan’s prosecution as a success. Sen. Dianne Feinstein, co-chair of the Senate Caucus on International Narcotics Control, described Khan in 2010 as “one of the world’s most significant heroin and opium traffickers, who provided direct support to the Taliban from his drug trafficking revenue.”

“Simply put: Narco-terrorism investigations have proven to be an effective tool in Afghanistan,” she wrote in a 2010 Senate report on Afghanistan. “So it should be a priority for funding and action.”

Yet at least one account undermines the notion that Khan’s arrest was part of a coherent policy. In his 2015 memoir, “The Dark Arts: My Undercover Life in Global Narco-Terrorism,” Edward Follis, the DEA’s Kabul attaché who became close to Khan, recounts the competing objectives that led to Khan’s arrest. In the summer of 2008, according to Follis, the Defense Department had placed Khan on a “kinetic list”— a list of targets for military strikes — and sought the agent’s help drawing Khan to a remote location where a drone could strike with little collateral damage. Follis, by his account, wanted to spare Khan’s life, and instead created a ruse to draw the Afghan to Jakarta where he could be rendered into U.S. custody.

“I’d always envisioned the inevitable endgame being HJK in my custody — in a federal prison cell — continuing to provide valuable and actionable intel that could save American lives, perhaps lead us to UBL or other high-ranking Al Qaeda and Taliban leaders, not charred to death in a smoldering Toyota on a red-dust highway somewhere in the province of Nimruz,” Follis wrote.

Yet the use of the criminal justice system as a way station for intelligence assets is controversial. “Any time we allow the intelligence mission to obscure our criminal justice system, we’re doing damage to the system overall,” said Mike German, a former FBI agent and fellow with the Brennan Center for Justice’s Liberty and National Security Program. He also questioned the lack of transparency around any representations the government may have made to advocate for Khan’s release: “You couldn’t trust him eight years ago, but now you can trust him? That’s a hard case to make. ‘Oh, well, he’s been good for the last 10 years.’ That’s because he’s been in prison. It’s hard to be smuggling in Afghanistan or Iran when you’re in prison.”

Khan’s case, like the war in Afghanistan itself, has dragged on for years; yet it is unclear what end, if any, has been served. In 2017, the amount of Afghan land seeded with opium was higher than ever before at nearly 328,000 hectares (about 810,505 acres), :oops: according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. In Nimruz, Khan’s home province, poppy cultivation increased 116 percent over the previous year. More than 14,000 U.S. troops remain stationed in Afghanistan; the Pentagon projected the war will cost $45 billion this year alone. On Monday, one American was killed and another wounded in a combat operation in eastern Afghanistan; also killed or wounded were an unknown number of Afghan troops.

“Both Haji Bashir Noorzai and Haji Juma Khan came forward and tried to negotiate with U.S. forces immediately after the Taliban government fell,” said Gretchen Peters. “We can never know the answer, but 17 years — more than 2,400 American lives and more than $1 trillion later — it is tantalizing to think what might have happened if we demanded they hand over Osama bin Laden in 2001 and then left them be.”

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Cain Marko » 10 May 2018 10:17

The situation is getting more complicated by the day. the key here is the bear. They push bhaloo into a corner, even by mistake, and you'll see flower markets open all over the place and lotus petals bloom in the ME.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby g.sarkar » 10 May 2018 12:53

UlanBatori wrote:Sounds like the hype from e-con Analysts about Sanctiongiri against Yindoostan circa 5/1998.
Senator (R.I.B.) "Strom" Thurmond, no (known) relation to Ambassadora Storm Daniels:
The yindian government has shot themselves in the foot, and maybe in the head!

We know how THAT played out.

Sanctiongiri is old tactics, it was there back during the WWII, when US sanctioned Japan. An old NYT article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/22/opin ... o-war.html
When Sanctions Lead to War
By Paul J. Saunders
WASHINGTON — As Ukraine battles separatists and Russia appears poised to invade, many historians and scholars are warning of ominous similarities to the outbreak of World War I in 1914. But they are ignoring a more important comparison: 1941.
The United States and Europe have until now relied almost exclusively on the threat of severe economic sanctions to prevent a Russian invasion of Ukraine. But sanctions — even crippling ones — won’t necessarily avert this.
For 20 years, economic sanctions have become Washington’s preferred policy to demonstrate resolve without using force. Yet the United States has not imposed harsh sanctions on major powers; Iran has been the toughest target, and it hasn’t unconditionally surrendered its nuclear program.
Washington has not tried to compel another major power with sanctions since 1940-41, when America imposed them on Imperial Japan, culminating in an oil embargo and the seizure of Japanese assets in July 1941. At that time, the United States sought to deter Japan from seizing Southeast Asia and demanded that Tokyo withdraw from Indochina and China. Japan in turn concluded that American sanctions made the occupation of Southeast Asia essential, as well as the devastation of the United States Navy.
Today’s policy makers would do well to study the American and Japanese choices that produced Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941. American officials at the time widely assumed that Japan wouldn’t dare challenge the United States because, as then Assistant Secretary of State Dean Acheson later put it, “No rational Japanese could believe an attack on us could result in anything but disaster.” And they offered no “carrots” to Tokyo — only a weak stick, because, like President Obama today, Franklin D. Roosevelt never clearly threatened force.
Meanwhile, Japan viewed the American position as a demand to forgo its role as a great power — something unacceptable to a proud empire. Japan preferred to fight rather than cave in. Moreover, Japanese leaders saw little distinction between economic sanctions and warfare and realized that sanctions would make their country weaker over time — something that encouraged them to strike sooner rather than later. They also believed the United States was politically weak and would give up if the costs got too high or the war lasted too long.
.....
Gautam

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Philip » 10 May 2018 16:26

Gross miscalculations on both sides.lack of communications and understanding of each other's culture and national character.
I fear that the Chinese are the latter-day Japanese,in fact displaying more neo-Nazi characteristics ,with the crowning of XI Gins as the Chin "Fuhrer", than that of the spirit of Bushido.

Trump is the equiv. of "Play it (again) Sam",dangerously blundering into the future,failing to understand the Persians. But as I said elsewhere,I think it is all a diabolic plot to ratchet up tensions and send the price of oil soaring to save the Saudi backsides and the Yanquis making a cool profit in the bargain.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Rudradev » 10 May 2018 18:50

Mort Walker wrote:
Rudradev wrote:^^ UB, I think that quote wasn't Strom Thurmond but another Suthun' blowhard: Senate Foreign Relations Committee pooh-bah-in-chief, Jesse Helms.


It was actually from Clinton administration officials in particular William Daley from Chicago who was the Secretary of Commerce.


Wrong.

It was in fact from Republican Senator Jesse Helms of North Carolina.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/05/13/senate.india/

Helms said the United States should not allow India to "paper over" its decision to go forward with nuclear weapons by now signing the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty as a nuclear weapons nation.

"The Indian government has not shot itself in the foot. Most likely it has shot itself in the head," said Helms. "By conducting five nuclear tests India made a major miscalculation not merely about the United States but about India's own capability. The Indian government has deluded itself into the absurd assumption that the possession of nuclear weapons will make India into a superpower at a time when hundreds of millions of India's people are in abject poverty."

Helms said the United States' response "must be vigorous international sanctions against India" to be lifted only when the threat of an Indian nuclear attack has been rolled back.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Lalmohan » 10 May 2018 19:06

I am sure that if you ask the Persians they will tell you that their nukes are an insurance policy against the wahabbis and their chamchas in Pakistan
all else is just media hype onlee...

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby ramana » 10 May 2018 23:03

it occurred to me this Iran tirade is really about telling the Young One how serious DT is about de-nuke the KoPen.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Prem » 11 May 2018 00:58

ramana wrote:Not HalfBright?


Half-Tripe said Indians have buried themselves with Nuke blast and Jaswant singh gave interesting response to Britch. BTW both Helm & Hyde were Jackals , trying to shackle Yindians but it arose the Rosh of Mahamaya to reign them .

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby UlanBatori » 11 May 2018 01:29

ramana wrote:it occurred to me this Iran tirade is really about telling the Young One how serious DT is about de-nuke the KoPen.

Timing is about right, but the deadline for continuing the SanctionWaiver came up.
Interesting 1984/Alice in Wunderstan lingo:
"Sanction" means "Prohibition".
What does "Waiver" mean?

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Amber G. » 11 May 2018 08:29

ramana wrote:Not HalfBright?

As few have noted the quote came from Sen. Jesse Helms (R-N.C.) who was at time chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. (see <link> for more details and context).
Interestingly I remember all the hullagulla in detail as I happened to be in Washington with our Math team for a national contest and we were meeting with Sen. Glenn (who obviously and unexpectedly got extremely busy because of India's tests). There was some very interesting conversation with the senator and his staff...(Many students and or coaches of a typical math team in US have a desi presence and has general knowledge about Shakti kinds of events).
I was brfite then -- mainly as a lurker but will comment some times - and did recommend brf to senator (and his staff) as a good diverse resource :) .. I think one of his staff member did join.
IMO Glenn - to his credit was quite respectful to India.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby UlanBatori » 11 May 2018 08:50

Iran has come a long way since the 1978 jollies and since the Iran-Iraq war. Today they have pretty advanced aerospace R&D, and papers from there are quite good in technical quality. Very tough for students from there to come and survive in Great Satanistan with all the hassles, but otherwise they are also excellent. I think they are quite capable of innovating on how to beat the Israeli systems, as they have shown in the Syrian conflict, beating the 10s of 1000s of ATGMs supplied by US/NATO/KSA/Turkey to ISIS and the Moderate White-Helmeted Beheaders. In each such bissing contest, Israel's edge is seen to become less and less. Now they mostly stay over the border and send missiles. Unless Putin obliges, Iran/Syria are not going to have air power parity but I don't think Israel any more has unchallenged air superiority. However, chances of Iran/Syria bringing down about 50 Israeli planes are remote. That's what it will take a cause serious rethinking in Tel Aviv, and a move towards peace talks.

I think if Iranians put their minds to it, they can develop their own cruise missiles.

The Iran-Israel hate I don't understand. KSA-Israel, yes, but why Iran? They have no border with Israel, and never had. KSA, Egypt, Jordan all have given up the Palestinian cause as hopeless. The presence of Iranian forces inside Syria is a creation of Israeli mischief in supporting ISIS.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Philip » 11 May 2018 09:09

US racism rears its ugly head again.Canadian cabinet minister Navdeep Bains was asked to remove his turban at a US airport twice even though he passed the metal detector. He always travels like an ordinary passenger and it was only when he reluctantly showed them his diplomatic passport that he was told all was fine.Bains protested about this discrimination to the press later on.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby bahdada » 11 May 2018 09:29

Philip wrote:US racism rears its ugly head again.Canadian cabinet minister Navdeep Bains was asked to remove his turban at a US airport twice even though he passed the metal detector. He always travels like an ordinary passenger and it was only when he reluctantly showed them his diplomatic passport that he was told all was fine.Bains protested about this discrimination to the press later on.


Doing their Job.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Cain Marko » 11 May 2018 09:30

UlanBatori wrote: The Iran-Israel hate I don't understand. KSA-Israel, yes, but why Iran? They have no border with Israel, and never had. KSA, Egypt, Jordan all have given up the Palestinian cause as hopeless. The presence of Iranian forces inside Syria is a creation of Israeli mischief in supporting ISIS.


Actually the Israel Iran brouhaha could be a smokescreen for Saudi hate towards Iran, ideologically and geopolitically. My guess is that Israel is the pawn, US is the queen, and saudis, the king.

Jmtp aaf course

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby habal » 11 May 2018 09:37

The Iran-Israel hate I don't understand. KSA-Israel, yes, but why Iran? They have no border with Israel, and never had. KSA, Egypt, Jordan all have given up the Palestinian cause as hopeless. The presence of Iranian forces inside Syria is a creation of Israeli mischief in supporting ISIS.


Shia Iran has it's chosen icon as Ali, the sword of allah who wielded the double edged sword zulfiqar. Ali is the Shia hero and role model of valour that all shias must emulate. While Shia role model of sacrifice were his children hassan & hussain to mourn whose death the shias have ashura (moharram).

So shias believe that they are better muslims because they hold ahl-ul-bait (family of prophet) in high esteem and consider only ahl-ul-bait as worthy of leadership of comnunity. While Wahabbis want nothing to do with family of prophet and they look upto prophets followers (sahaba) abu-bakr & umar, who were not related by blood to the prophet and who were not so big on family ties of prophet and had differences over family ties of prophet taking over imamate. This is the main doctrinal difference between shia & sunni.

Ali's main exploit during his time as prophets companion and army general was the battle of khyber, this khyber is in present day saudi arabia and was hitherto an impenetrable fortress of arab jews which was overcome by exploits of ali who broke the gates of the fort. Ali and Muhammad were instrumental in killing every man & woman inside the fortress

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar

So this is what the Iranians have set out to do, since in their doctrine only they are the only true & devoutest followers of prophet and his family and believe in Ali's imamate, and that the wahabis are kharijites who only sow discord amongst the followers, and thus Iran in its narrative has self-imposed role and manifest destiny to overcome the modern day khayber that is Israel.

thus the hezbollah battle cry:
khayber khayber ya yahud, jaysh e muhammad saya'ud
//do you jews remember khayber, the army of the prophet is coning back to take it.

Only in this case khayber is Israel.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Kati » 11 May 2018 09:51

^^^
Saudi and GCC is the biggest honey-pot for the western companies, ranging from agri to high-tech, from health care to financial business.
Through this honey-pot the western companies (dominated by a particular tribe) recoup losses they encounter in other places. So the despotic Saudi/GCC govts have turned the hired goons Unkil and its bandits to gang up on the Shia regimes which can devour stupid wahabis. The hired goons are just doing their part to keep the honeypot intact.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Cain Marko » 11 May 2018 09:57

habal wrote:
The Iran-Israel hate I don't understand. KSA-Israel, yes, but why Iran? They have no border with Israel, and never had. KSA, Egypt, Jordan all have given up the Palestinian cause as hopeless. The presence of Iranian forces inside Syria is a creation of Israeli mischief in supporting ISIS.


Shia Iran has it's chosen icon as Ali, the sword of allah who wielded the double edged sword zulfiqar. Ali is the Shia hero and role model of valour that all shias must emulate. While Shia role model of sacrifice were his children hassan & hussain to mourn whose death the shias have ashura (moharram).

So shias believe that they are better muslims because they hold ahl-ul-bait (family of prophet) in high esteem and consider only ahl-ul-bait as worthy of leadership of comnunity. While Wahabbis want nothing to do with family of prophet and they look upto prophets followers (sahaba) abu-bakr & umar, who were not related by blood to the prophet and who were not so big on family ties of prophet and had differences over family ties of prophet taking over imamate. This is the main doctrinal difference between shia & sunni.

Ali's main exploit during his time as prophets companion and army general was the battle of khyber, this khyber is in present day saudi arabia and was hitherto an impenetrable fortress of arab jews which was overcome by exploits of ali who broke the gates of the fort. Ali and Muhammad were instrumental in killing every man & woman inside the fortress

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar

So this is what the Iranians have set out to do, since in their doctrine only they are the only true & devoutest followers of prophet and his family and believe in Ali's imamate, and that the wahabis are kharijites who only sow discord amongst the followers, and thus Iran in its narrative has self-imposed role and manifest destiny to overcome the modern day khayber that is Israel.

thus the hezbollah battle cry:
khayber khayber ya yahud, jaysh e muhammad saya'ud
//do you jews remember khayber, the army of the prophet is coning back to take it.

Only in this case khayber is Israel.

Seems to me the one people the Shias hate even more than the jooz are the Saudi wahabbis.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Gus » 11 May 2018 11:09

Shias feel that they have to prove that they are the 'real muslims' by taking on the jews even more than the sunnis. There's the underlying persian-arab rivalry as well.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby habal » 11 May 2018 14:40

True. While Shii practice family worship of prophet by erecting various mazar, masajid devoted to memory of ahle-bait. Extremist Sunnis esp wahabis & salafis claim to be true iconoclast and reject deification of prophets family and only believe in democratic sahaba karam (all followers of prophet) in one grouping. They believe that true democratisation of Islam can be achieved only by rejecting prophets family in an extra special place in the religion and all sahaba must be treated as equal.

This can also be because wahabis originally come from tribes outside the influence of the traditional hashimite sharifs of mecca (being planted into thick of things by the british primarily) and they have no interest in promoting prophets descendents because that means giving predominance to the sharifs of mecca and hejazis,
hashimis etc who were the arab rulers of the land of the holy mosques by virtue of being the prophets descendents and whose throne these bedouin wahabi tribes were trying to then usurp, :)

So either wahabis are jealous of ahl-e-bait or they are direct competition to the throne, either ways end result is same.

The shia have placed the sahaba on two levels, the first level is muhammad, abu talib (his uncle), ali, hasan, hussayn, zeinab, fatima as most venerable and then the non-blood relation sahaba like abu bakr, umar, bilal, abu sufyan etc as second rung.

Wahabis have clung on to latter with their life as true followers because they do not have any other choice in this matter.

And Shia thus have onus to carry in the tradition of the sahaba e ahl ul bait, the pristine of whom was ali and the most notable of whose achievements was destruction of khyber. Without this USP, shias have lost their claim to fame in the pecking order. This is what Iran is embracing at.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby UlanBatori » 11 May 2018 18:14

One more OT pls to clarify the issues here. Who were the Philistines (original pronuciation of Palestine)? Is there some historic love between Israel and Philstine-stan, other than the much later Kuffar-Islam thing? Need to understand this b4 UBCN can refine the prediction of how DT is going to orchestrate Israel-Iran-Palestine hugs & kisses w/o using tactical nukes.

My Eyeranian classmates in Ulan Bator Yak-cart Abbrentice-ship Brohram (YAB) used to say "Philistins" and it took me a while to correlate that with Palestinians.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Lalmohan » 11 May 2018 19:09

david slew goliath the phillistine

[added later]

and in british colonial era the term was used to mean uncivilised... as in: "oh he is an absolute philistine!"

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby ramana » 11 May 2018 21:33

UlanBatori wrote:One more OT pls to clarify the issues here. Who were the Philistines (original pronuciation of Palestine)? Is there some historic love between Israel and Philstine-stan, other than the much later Kuffar-Islam thing? Need to understand this b4 UBCN can refine the prediction of how DT is going to orchestrate Israel-Iran-Palestine hugs & kisses w/o using tactical nukes.

My Eyeranian classmates in Ulan Bator Yak-cart Abbrentice-ship Brohram (YAB) used to say "Philistins" and it took me a while to correlate that with Palestinians.


H.G. Wells in his 'Outline History of World' speculates Philistines are displaced Troy natives scattered after sack of Troy. They were quite a seafaring people and could have moved south of Ilium or Troy. Golaith reminds you of Hector.

In a sense the Philistines occupied Canan the promised land so it goes before Izalm.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby ramana » 11 May 2018 21:39

habal wrote:True. While Shii practice family worship of prophet by erecting various mazar, masajid devoted to memory of ahle-bait. Extremist Sunnis esp wahabis & salafis claim to be true iconoclast and reject deification of prophets family and only believe in democratic sahaba karam (all followers of prophet) in one grouping. They believe that true democratisation of Islam can be achieved only by rejecting prophets family in an extra special place in the religion and all sahaba must be treated as equal.

This can also be because wahabis originally come from tribes outside the influence of the traditional hashimite sharifs of mecca (being planted into thick of things by the british primarily) and they have no interest in promoting prophets descendents because that means giving predominance to the sharifs of mecca and hejazis,
hashimis etc who were the arab rulers of the land of the holy mosques by virtue of being the prophets descendents and whose throne these bedouin wahabi tribes were trying to then usurp, :)

So either wahabis are jealous of ahl-e-bait or they are direct competition to the throne, either ways end result is same.

The shia have placed the sahaba on two levels, the first level is muhammad, abu talib (his uncle), ali, hasan, hussayn, zeinab, fatima as most venerable and then the non-blood relation sahaba like abu bakr, umar, bilal, abu sufyan etc as second rung.

Wahabis have clung on to latter with their life as true followers because they do not have any other choice in this matter.

And Shia thus have onus to carry in the tradition of the sahaba e ahl ul bait, the pristine of whom was ali and the most notable of whose achievements was destruction of khyber. Without this USP, shias have lost their claim to fame in the pecking order. This is what Iran is embracing at.


This is awesome can you draw a pyramid structure to make it graphic?

BTW use shades of green for the Shia and shades of black for the Wahabis.


The green flag of Islam is a borrow from Persians.


When you say khyber you mean Kaba the meteorite stone?

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby IndraD » 11 May 2018 21:47

Wish these quality posts were done on West Asia thread...many will come there looking for these explanations but may not come to US thread.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Cain Marko » 11 May 2018 23:41

ramana wrote:
habal wrote:True. While Shii practice family worship of prophet by erecting various mazar, masajid devoted to memory of ahle-bait. Extremist Sunnis esp wahabis & salafis claim to be true iconoclast and reject deification of prophets family and only believe in democratic sahaba karam (all followers of prophet) in one grouping. They believe that true democratisation of Islam can be achieved only by rejecting prophets family in an extra special place in the religion and all sahaba must be treated as equal.

This can also be because wahabis originally come from tribes outside the influence of the traditional hashimite sharifs of mecca (being planted into thick of things by the british primarily) and they have no interest in promoting prophets descendents because that means giving predominance to the sharifs of mecca and hejazis,
hashimis etc who were the arab rulers of the land of the holy mosques by virtue of being the prophets descendents and whose throne these bedouin wahabi tribes were trying to then usurp, :)

So either wahabis are jealous of ahl-e-bait or they are direct competition to the throne, either ways end result is same.

The shia have placed the sahaba on two levels, the first level is muhammad, abu talib (his uncle), ali, hasan, hussayn, zeinab, fatima as most venerable and then the non-blood relation sahaba like abu bakr, umar, bilal, abu sufyan etc as second rung.

Wahabis have clung on to latter with their life as true followers because they do not have any other choice in this matter.

And Shia thus have onus to carry in the tradition of the sahaba e ahl ul bait, the pristine of whom was ali and the most notable of whose achievements was destruction of khyber. Without this USP, shias have lost their claim to fame in the pecking order. This is what Iran is embracing at.


This is awesome can you draw a pyramid structure to make it graphic?

BTW use shades of green for the Shia and shades of black for the Wahabis.


The green flag of Islam is a borrow from Persians.


When you say khyber you mean Kaba the meteorite stone?


No Khaybar was a jewish stronghold North of medina,, it's a place if great significance to Muslims as a result of a battle which took place there. The battle of khaybar was a result of events that were a foretaste of Jewish and muslim rivalries that continue to this day.. The muslims in Medina felt that the intrigue and plots of the Jews in Khyber left them little choice but to attack it. A prelude to all this was that the banu nadr tribe of Jews had violated a pact at Medina, where an allegiance was sworn to each other by all parties involved in the area..... Migrant meccan qureish aka the muhajirun,, the ansar of medina and the Jews of the area including the Banu nadr

The banu nadir were expelled from medina for plotting to kill Muhammad, and went to Khyber, where they roused up more hostility vs the muslims. This soon led them to join up with the neccans in an attack on medina called the battle of the trench, which the medinans repelled.

The Muslims used this among other reasons to attack Khyber, which was well protected and a stronghold of the Jews. Ali's heroics there are stuff off legend especially for the Shia.

Their enemity continued through the middle ages and Persia was notable in it's harsh treatment of Jews with the exception of a few episodes.

But TBH the twentieth century was mostly a good period for the two countries until of course the Ayatollahs came along. The hate for Israel is further exacerbated by the latter's unwillingness to pay Iran debt that is owed them as a result of irans oil supplies to Israel during the shah's reign including during the six day war.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Singha » 11 May 2018 23:49

Sniff sniff it seems the philistines you talk of are the greco roman era levantine phoenicians in whose era judaism was birthed and later christianity. They were a trading and seafaring people who lived in syria turkish coast and palestine. They also migrated to parts of north africa close to spain

Nicholas taleb is probsbly of that stock as are most elite coastal syrians and lebanese with some admixture of french blood from crusader ruled cities and assyrian christians pushed west

Suffice it to say they are not really arabs except politically

The druze alawites alevis are part of this ecosystem but not strictly muslim in the eyes of harsher critics

Four of the five key patriarchies of christianity was in this belt with rome the fifth snd only survivor after islam . So christians totally loat their ancient heartland with the nearest pockets and closest to the old ways being nestorians in ethiopia and greek orthodox

Rome thius was left to lead the flock and rest is history

Three were alexandria jerusalem and constantinople the fourth i forgot probably Antioch

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby Singha » 12 May 2018 00:02

First jews lost to christians
Then christians and leftover jews loat to islam
Very few jews were left in that region when israel was formed
The sepherdim and mizrahi jews still do not own the high ground vs the dominant ashkenazi immigrants from europe
All iranian yemeni and iraqi jews moved to istael .. the brown skin mizrahi
The blackish brown jews of north africa were the sepherdim

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby kiranA » 12 May 2018 20:02

Speaking on practicals - the biggest losers are Iran, India and USA. The winners are China and saudi. Iran has been delivered to China and if europe keeps the deal with Iran then a stronger iran has been delivered to China. Saudis benefit from any middle east turmoil because it increases oil prices and an excellent administration means the turmoil rarely enters saudi itself.

India loses because India more or less has no option but stick to US restrictions. India runs its highest trade surplus with US and if add services it is higher. And US will give no concessions to India if India continues trade with Iran it will use it as a stick to beat India. The relative importance of China will increase tremendously to Iran and with it some strategic implications as well.

US side the losses are general credibility of usa and trade deals with Iran. On the other side US pluses are better relations with saudi and perhaps a longer life for petro dollar.

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Re: Understanding the US- Again

Postby kiranA » 12 May 2018 20:42

Another possible reason is that this scrapping of deal may be the Trump way of making up for his tepid response to Syria and throwing sunni allies under the bus. Going against Syria means going against Russia and Trumps voter base hates the idea of going against Russia. But going against Iran has no such political cost and it can assuage the sunni allies who are increasing doubtful of the payback from US for all their support.


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