Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby arshyam » 13 Oct 2018 08:02

UB saar, can't disagree with most of your points, but consider this one aspect:

UlanBatori wrote:The SC was merely deciding what was the correct interpretation of the Constitution. All said and done, it is a public place that receives public funds, and is probably situated on public land. They cannot say that people are denied admission simply because of age or gender. If the claim is that "it is too hard for wimmen", well.... I am sure the SC can dictate that it be made less stressful with better facilities and orderly processes.

and this:
Days After Sabarimala Verdict, Kerala HC Throws Out Petition For Equal Access To Mosques For Muslim Women

Was the latter from a different constitution then?

Hindu society over time might accept this judgment (though going by the vehemence of womenfolk who are protesting, it will take a really long time), but this blatant inequality in interfering only in Hindu traditions is grating on more and more people. Such things only end up invoking a reactionary response in sticking more strictly to one's traditions. Like how junior Bush's post-9/11 comment on "clash of civilisations" brought out the beards and burqas all over the world. Who benefits from these moves?

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Oct 2018 08:11

Hindus should appeal that one to the SC, hain?
Nah, scratch that, I wrote it before I read the deep legal brilliance of the Petition:

Pointing out that the petitioner failed to establish that there’s a denial of women’s entry to Kerala mosques, the division bench of Chief Justice Rishikesh Roy and A K J Nambiar dismissed it.
The petition expounded that in context of the Sabarimala Verdict {first error: says this is tit for tit, no pun intended}, that ordered the entry of women of all age groups into the Sabarimala temple, the same courtesy must be given to Muslim women who allegedly face restrictions in praying at mosques.
The petitioner Swamy Dethathreya Sai Swaroop Nath, the state president of Akhila Bharatha Hindu Maha Sabha, Kerala unit, put forward his petition stating that Muslim women are being discriminated by not allowing them to enter and pray in the mosque’s main prayer hall, as reported by Live Law.
His petition directed attention to the fact that Muslim women were allowed entry in Mecca but not in Indian mosques. He also added that the imposition of a dress code like purdah for Muslim women would enable anti-social elements to misuse it and commit crimes. {Huh?? What has that got to do with mosque entry? Other than painting "Kick me, I am a Bigot!" on the musharraf of the Petitioner?}
“Thus, women of the Muslim community were being disgraced and discriminated against which was against Article 21 and 14 of the Constitution,” his plea said, insisting that it was an encroachment into the realm of personal liberty and social security.


I don't know the full text of the Petition, and how much it got distorted in reporting, but at first reading it sounds like a jumbled mess of insinuations with no facts. And one might well ask, duh! How tough can it be to get factual documentation of things that we all "know" to be true?
IOW, this sounds like an angry, pompous and EXTREMELY ill-prepared stunt by the Swamy. Lacking the very basic preparation such as , duh! find someone who has actually had their rights trampled on. Must not have occurred to these Holy Jeeniuses?

They have just made it orders of magnitude more difficult to open up the mosques. Then again, the political point to be scored may have been exactly that: to prove "bias against Hindus" rather than insist on uniform application of the Constitution to all Indians.

I see nothing in the judgement that shows bias against Hindus. It shows bias against idiots maybe, like asking:

" Aiyyoo! Shouldn't you show evidence that rights have been denied to people, before you ask us to correct the Rights Denial?"


IOW, the Petitioner is either an idiot (not likely) or had absolutely no intention of winning that case.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Oct 2018 08:26

Dileepji: Thx. Would like to find out about the Buddhist figures though. I have peeked at them, of course, and yes, they did look something like the figures you see from Xi-stan. They were very ancient, pitted stone etc. Did not look like figures from yindoo temples. The sources for the legend about how they came to where they were, are not likely to be wrong.
Curious: What highway crossed those parts?

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 13 Oct 2018 10:03

UB Saar.. I never heard about the figurines. Maybe they were indeed remnants of old Buddist existence. But I am 400% sure there was no conflict. If there was any, at least some insinuation about it would have been there in the legends. Like 'asuras' were livingthere and Ayyappa chased them away etc. The only conflict we here was about the highway robbers (robber king udayan of Karimala particularly)

The highway is essentially the trail that later became Kottayam-Kumili Road. It was the route to the Madurai kingdom, through which the Pandalam kings came down to Kerala. The trade with TN was being affected by the robbers, and Manikandan (soldier as per one legend, adopted prince as per another) was deputed to clean up the area.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 13 Oct 2018 11:07

UlanBatori wrote:I don't know the full text of the Petition, and how much it got distorted in reporting, but at first reading it sounds like a jumbled mess of insinuations with no facts.

True. The petition which was filed at Kerala HC, was filed by a person who had no locus standi (i.e non-Muslim), and he had no supporting evidence to justify his petition. Where as in Sabari Mala case, the petitioners were all Hindu women; who conveniently was represented by a Muslim lawyer. But now the women themselves have filed a petition, and we need to watch how that goes. But to be frank, I have serious doubts on the interpretation of "secularism" when it comes to Islamic belief systems.

Dileep wrote:The trade with TN was being affected by the robbers, and Manikandan (soldier as per one legend, adopted prince as per another) was deputed to clean up the area.

Sir, but I am not really happy to see how the things are flaring up in Kerala. Politics (and the dirty games) have now taken over the actual demand of the true Ayyappa devotees. The communists are now active on all media outlets trying to polarise the Hindu society on caste lines. And there are also idiots like the actor idiot Kollam Thulasi whose statements are actually detrimental to Sabari Mala. In the political game, I hope the Ayyappa devotees come out unscathed. The only hope seems to be in the Thantri and Pandalam Royal families who are saying that they want a peaceful settlement and are trying to keep all politicians at a distance. The main stream media is now completely backing the communists, in their attempt to demoralise and polarise the Hindu community in caste lines.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 13 Oct 2018 11:23

Looks like more nastier games are being planned
Trupti Desai to visit Sabarimala soon.
Trupti Desai is challenging the devotees: PS Sreedharan Pillai {of the BJP}.

And on the Kerala floods & subsequent "begging challenge", looks like only the Kerala Chief Minister has been given authority to proceed. Rest of his cabinet will have to stay put in KL.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Oct 2018 18:14

IMO, the game is about the huge tourist revenue (and associated souvenir/picture etc sales) that Sabarimala brings: the commies etc want to grab the whole pie there. Devotees need to watch out for this and get organized, and figure out what is REALLY important. Again, I think the desired solution will be a clean, peaceful, environmentally sustainable and quiet, calm environment for real Bhakti. A calm evaluation of say, last year's situation will show why Shri A. Himself and Rsi Sabari Herself would both be disgusted at what the whole "pilgrimage" had become. Why can't SabariMala become a model for the rest of India and Hinduism on how mass worship can be conducted well, with the original and most valued concepts of Sanatana Dharma valued, way over evolved rituals and micro-practices?

I am not sure what standing the Pandalam Royals etc have, any more. If they own the place, it is their fault that things have deteriorated so far.

IMO the issue of what Moo-Moos want to do to their wimmens and vice versa, is best left to the Hyooman Rites bibis. I assume this Trupti de Sai is one of those? Look at it this this way: I don't honestly give a ***** what others do in their places of worship as long as they are not hoarding weapons and making bombs there. If the whole Pakistan Army was allowed to enter mosques in LaHore clad in their standard uniform of Burkhas and Boots, it won't change the situation at SabariMala one bit. So why waste energy on those things? If there is a move to file lawsuits, file 1000 well-coordinated lawsuits, not frivolous ones. Let them collect those into one massive Class Action suit, that will at least get some traction.

Try to get sane control of the tourist scam. It is very nice to see devotees coming from as far as Andhra and all parts of TN and Karnataka, but ultimately I do have to wonder why (not that it is any of my business if the real driver is worship, but is it? Or isn't it a tourist boondoggle? )

But all that requires a level of clear thinking and leadership among yindoos that simply does not exist.

This is all aggravated by a set of rigid and narrow "rules" that have little to do with original precepts. Like "temple is open only 5 days a month". WHY?
"Only the days in December are Holy." WHY?
These were rules made for when the Pandalam Royals found it too cold to be in the Swiss Alps?

Or rules made for a beautiful local temple set up for the local village of 100 people to go worship. Not for 2 million in a month.

These are the things that make it so hard for aam Malloos to go worship at their local temples any more: a temple made for 20 ppl to worship at a time, is flooded with 1000 coming in hordes of buses. Pushing and shoving, no concept of orderly conduct or leaving an inch of space between bodies... talking at the top of their voices when they are not yelling out their prayers? THIS is the New Mode of Hindu Worship?

Is it any wonder that Shri A and Rsi Sabari showed what a real "flood" can be?

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 13 Oct 2018 20:36

UlanBatori wrote:IMO, the game is about the huge tourist revenue (and associated souvenir/picture etc sales) that Sabarimala brings: the commies etc want to grab the whole pie there.

That is quite known. It is pretty much known that Kerala's finance is also sustained in a big way by the big temples in the state, like Sabari Mala and Guruvayurappan temple at Guruvayur. I am just talking about the story 30 years back. Both these temples were not crowded as we see it today. Guruvayur temple was crowded (for a 8 year old boy), but even then Sabari Mala was not. Poor transport conditions, and the fact that Ayyappa did not have a pan-India belief like what we see today helped. But today for GoKL, all these temples are money making schemes.

I am not sure what standing the Pandalam Royals etc have, any more. If they own the place, it is their fault that things have deteriorated so far.

Politically and may be socially they may not hold much clout. But as per the current legend associated with Sabari Mala, Lord Ayyappa was part of this Royal family. Secondly the Thiruvabharanam (holy ornaments) to be put on the diety still comes from the Pandalam palace. So from a religious perspective the royal family still have a say. And the fact that they are politically neutral may actually help them. But many of the members of the royal family are card carrying commies, with the palace also a place which had helped many commies in hiding (during their fights with Travancore kings). But when it comes to Sabari Mala, the royal family has taken a consistent stance.

But I do agree with you that, it is the rapid commercialisation of Hindu temples in Kerala (mainly to get more money), which also has led to this mess. There are numerous temples still there in Kerala, which is actually serene and helps people get a higher feeling of devotion.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 13 Oct 2018 22:24

Well, I wouldn't say the temples were "made" money making. We aren't that smart. We aren't smart enough to think that "if you build it, they will come". That is a very massa concept. Here, first a lot of people show up. After the facilities and infra starts to crumble, we realize that hey, somehow now we seem to have some money, so let us improve some facilities (and siphon some of this money out)

Secondly, it is a 400% lie that the govt is taking temple money. The DB accounting is separate, so the govt can't just take any of the money. What they can do is let the DB babus to siphon off/skim/kickback. Some other arguably legal adjustments also do happen, like the DB money being used to buy vehicles for the DB minister/babu folk. But those can't cross departmental boundaries.

Yak Herder wrote:"temple is open only 5 days a month". WHY?
"Only the days in December are Holy." WHY?

I have a question that trump all such questions. "Why pray to a sand cast and polished bronze statue"? If we talk "logic" let us start there.

People love some stuff for what they are for whatever reason. Let it be.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Oct 2018 23:07

Trouble is that this boxes us into a terrible situation where the answer to everything is: "Because!"
One faces the prospect of explaining to the Supreme Court that "we" are fine and dandy with millions of "us" wading through poo-filled Pampa River ( I am citing reports from experience) to walk up the Holy 18 steps every year, but our Pure Beliefs won't allow women to walk the same path with or without a good bath. Because we are Holy onlee.

On the temple opening timings, my guess is that if the temple stays open 18 hours a day for 330 days a year, people will schedule worship appropriately and after 10 years no one will miss the Holiness of waiting for hours for the Nada to Open. They will laugh at the very idea of such an atrocious arrangement. The temple just needs to hire more pujaris to make this happen and have a more organized process for re-decorating and preparing the Inner Sanctum. None of that violates any holy concept.

IMO there are many perfectly good Believers who refuse to contemplate going to The Temple in the neighborhood on Special Days. Because it is very hard to pray peacefully in a bazaar environment.

To bring in an even more blasphemous example: I was once told that the ski resorts in the Rocky Mountains were once places to which only men travelled. OK, maybe men and agile girffriends because there was no danger of Bibi/Bacche coming there. Why? Because one had to be pretty agile and foolhardy (or drunk) to leap on to the ChairLift as it slowed down for a moment at the bottom.

Then someone invented a Chair Lift that did an elaborate low-level maneuver that kept it at crawling speed on level ground, but allowed the main climb and descent to proceed fast. Result? Old folks and kids could easily get on and off. Suddenly, the bijnej of the resort itself, and even of the mountaintop cafe, boomed. You could sell Ben-Gay and Geritol in the Store, as well as kids' toys and clothes and shoes. Families came along for the weekend holiday, because they could get on the chair-lift and go up to the top, and sit sipping chocolate in the warm cafe there, watching Dad/Hubby/Son go zooming down the slopes with the wind whistling through the holes in their heads.

Wasn't this sheer sacrilege, hain? Climb a MOUNTAIN, get to the top of a ski slope, without being a skier? Share the ChairLift with geezers and brats, not with houris like James Bond? Yeah, but the increased sales overcame all such resistance. The advertising showed a portly momma in ski goggles under
We've Slid a Long Way, Baby!
instead of the Rugged Tanned (but White) He-Man VP Sales with the half-starved SuperModel on his arm.

And likewise, 10 years from now (more like 10 weeks from now!), like it or not, the advertisement for the Real SabariMala Worshipper will feature a portly Malloo matron. Maybe they WILL set up a Chair Lift (maybe a Helipad too) to the adjacent hill and a Walkway Bridge across to SM.

Disney-Pandalam Rejorts.

You know that soon Cheen tourists will zip past Mt. Kailash and around Lake Manasarovar in pressurized, air-conditioned luxury sipping whatever they sip over there, in their Mag-Lev super-Bullet Trains built by Pakistan Rel Ltd. 5 hours, Beijing-Manasarovar. Stay at the 50-floor Oberoi-Sheraton-Xi opposite Mt. Everest. Stroll to the top of Mt. Kailash on an Escalator.

The Hardy Pilgrim who takes on the Suffering to Build Character and Reinforce Faith, has their days numbered, sorry.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 14 Oct 2018 01:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 13 Oct 2018 23:25

Dileep wrote:Secondly, it is a 400% lie that the govt is taking temple money. The DB accounting is separate, so the govt can't just take any of the money. What they can do is let the DB babus to siphon off/skim/kickback. Some other arguably legal adjustments also do happen, like the DB money being used to buy vehicles for the DB minister/babu folk. But those can't cross departmental boundaries.

I have my own doubts here, and perhaps may have to use the RTI route to get the amount figures. At Sabari Mala, a lot of Kerala government services are used, that is mainly Kerala Police, Kerala Fire & Rescue Services, Kerala State Electricity Board etc. Do the Travancore Devaswom Board "pay" for these services? If yes, what is the rate charged? I don't think all these folks work for free at Sabari Mala. What I feel (again, I don't have a written statement to corroborate my claim) is that all the state departments who offer their services at "Sabari Mala" charge the "Devaswom Board" a very inflated charge. These departments and Devaswom Board are all managed by the same entity; the Kerala Govt. So no one will ever dispute the money demanded by the Kerala Govt. Departments.

I have some connections with a small temple, which has a festival once a year (a ceremony which has a duration of 48 hours max). This event any way is noted by Kerala Police, and if "police bandobust" has to be arranged, the temple administration has to submit an application well in advance to provide the police men. A some between Rs. 10,000-15,000 has to be deposited at the treasury. Once this is done, men from the "A.R camp" are detailed to provide security at the temple, and the local Sub Inspector (and the "Night Round Officer") would also come on do periodic checking. That being the case, I don't think Kerala Police etc. are doing some charity work at Sabari Mala. They all charge a huge amount for the services rendered.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Pulikeshi » 14 Oct 2018 00:30

While lots of idiocy aka baits on social justice theories have been thrown around on this thread from every side of the debate...
PS: At the outset let me clearly state that I am agnostic to whether women of a particular age should be allowed to Sabarimala or not.

I’ll make a few points perhaps not being considered in this debate:

  1. Every temple is built with a different context -
    Some are considered self-arose, others are tombs of great kings, others are subscriptions to a particular parampara, etc.
    In this case Sabarimala has a presiding deity that has chosen to be a Naisthik Brahmachari - not to be in presence of any possible temptation.
  2. Legally the presiding deity in a temple is a Juristic person - a perpetual minor!!
    See for example: Hindu Deity as a Juristic Person - Vidya Varuthi Thirthia Swamigal v. Baluswami Ayyar (1922)
  3. There are many temples in India with very particular parampara and rules to entry and participation.
    The question legally is really who is permitted to visit the temple at the sufferance of the presiding deity.
    There was never therefore a ban on entry for women, nor is there a right to entry for women
    In fact this was never about rights, it was always about sufferance of the deity - as in
    Who I allow in my home, in my presence, is my right!

That the Atheist Communist Politburo in China decides who is the real incarnation of the Dalai Lama is not in question here, but is indeed the same bad after taste left in the mouth, when Atheist Leftist decide whose suffarance the presiding deity has to endure. That this is a privilege and not a right is lost in this muddle headed thinking.

It is not even the argument that Masjids should have equal rights for women to pray side-by-side with the men, or for women mullahs, or for that matter Christian Churches should have women priests, that they can hear confessions, etc. The argument is singularly that of whose father the deity allows to be in their presence within the sanctom santorum of the temple. The argument is that simple, the activist Supremes unlike the scholars of yore, have lost their understanding and genius of the Dharmic codes from the various Smritis where - Corporations, Charitable entities and Temples with their presiding deities were empowered as Juristic persons who had human representatives, failing which they became wards of the state and their rights were to be protected by those elected and sitting on high benches of the law. The Supremes have made a mockery of themselves by not protecting the rights of presiding deity at Sabarimala. The sane women of Kerala seem to agree. This is nothing more than the idiocy of the secular invading the divine.

The Supremes have violated the rights of a Juristic person - a perpetual minor- a Naisthik Brahmachari and committed activist tyranny on his sufferance of who he wishes to audience.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 14 Oct 2018 01:43

Just a small point:
This IS 2018. The Naisthik Brahmachari point if considered, would have to be considered in a modern context where this is OK to point out. Let me try to put it delicately. In Afghanistan and Pakistan (or Rome suburbs..), that would require banning all children of all ages and genders. At minimum. I don't know what are the other criteria for Temptation signified by wearing the white carnation or earring in one ear. So there may be a good reason why this was not the main legal point argued.

The other thing is, who decides that they have heard and understood The Wishes Of The Deity accurately? The Supreme Court can read all they want, but when they have an authoritative answer on this pls let me know. SD ppl specifically reject the idea of One Prophet or Son etc who has total authority. Acharyas and Gurus can provide their **ADVICE** but cannot claim absolute understanding of the ParamAtman.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Pulikeshi » 14 Oct 2018 03:20

UlanBatori wrote:Just a small point:
This IS 2018. The Naisthik Brahmachari point if considered, would have to be considered in a modern context where this is OK to point out. Let me try to put it delicately. In Afghanistan and Pakistan (or Rome suburbs..), that would require banning all children of all ages and genders. At minimum. I don't know what are the other criteria for Temptation signified by wearing the white carnation or earring in one ear. So there may be a good reason why this was not the main legal point argued.

The other thing is, who decides that they have heard and understood The Wishes Of The Deity accurately? The Supreme Court can read all they want, but when they have an authoritative answer on this pls let me know. SD ppl specifically reject the idea of One Prophet or Son etc who has total authority. Acharyas and Gurus can provide their **ADVICE** but cannot claim absolute understanding of the ParamAtman.


Where as you have a right to free speech. I have no argument with you, but I find your trivialization to pedophila in real distaste.
It may be 2018, but there is no escaping the profane!

The Juristic Person is a concept that came from our Smriti was adopted into the Indian Constitution. That this has been adopted into Common Law is not a commonly known fact in the deracinated Indians following Western models without introspection. Courts in India use this principle to act on the interests of the deity even today - whether it be Ayodhya or several other legal cases. To date no one has moved the courts with this argument, that does not mean, that the argument itself has no merit. It is well held principle that Mosques are not Juristic persons, but Temple Deities and Sikh Scriptures are and therefore have rights as a - perpetual minor - who is either the ward of citizens real humans nominated in their interest or the ward of the state.

In fact, I’d argue that the India State should get out of the business of running temples or regulating who can participate in them, and let the Dieties decide whose sufferance they would choose to endure. It is rather irrelevant what secular and other useful idiots think of who the Diety ought to sufferance in audience! The rights of the devotee or otherwise lesser seculars cannot trump the owner of the house - the perpetual minor
- the divine Temple Diety!

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Pulikeshi » 14 Oct 2018 04:16

UlanBatori wrote:The other thing is, who decides that they have heard and understood The Wishes Of The Deity accurately? The Supreme Court can read all they want, but when they have an authoritative answer on this pls let me know. SD ppl specifically reject the idea of One Prophet or Son etc who has total authority. Acharyas and Gurus can provide their **ADVICE** but cannot claim absolute understanding of the ParamAtman.


Lets clarify a few things - there is no one including you or me representing all the SD ppl here... what they reject or not... is merely your opinion.

The facts are simply this - Manikandan aka Ayappan is the diety in question who is resident at the temple.
PS: Many Indian Hindus outside the Kerala region may not even know who this deity is and to club them into SD ppl and speak on their behalf is rich!
They may know nothing of the tiger milk and stories of this diety and to consider that they know what this diety wishes or chooses is again rich!

That this deity made a choice in taking up Naisthika Brahmacharya is not in question, that it comes with some constraints to who can visit him,
Is also not in question. The Supremes merely opinioned on the rights of women, not even devotees, to temple entry. AFAIK they did not grapple with the grievous injury caused to the rights of the Diety in question. In fact no one has made such arguments before the courts.

I’d go one step futher (especially as I have clearly stated - I am agnostic if women enter this temple or not, but the principle the Right is fighting on is incorrect and the principle the Left is fighting on is a misapplication of a Western nuisance of secular progressiveness on an Indian society that has no need for it) - This has nothing to do with paramatman, nothing to do with Acharya’s Gurus, belief, or non-belief, nothing to do with the rights of women, men or boys & girls.

Here is my recommendation to the Sabrimala Trust - shutdown the temple if they force you to continue the sufferance beyond the choice of the Diety.
If you do not, then you did not hold the choice of the deity that seriously in the first place and therefore will diminish the sanctity of the place.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 14 Oct 2018 06:57

I don't understand why Hindus are not allowed to have their beliefs?
This is a matter of faith not of laws.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 14 Oct 2018 10:26

Who decides the matter of Deities? (Note.. I am not saying 'gods'. Let us talk about 'Dieties' which is the subject matter here)

Deity is installed by humans as a focal point for their worship. If you are enlightened in one of the 'sidhantas'you don't need this, but most of the people aren't, so a Deity is required.

When a Deity is installed, a 'personality' is given/derived/assumed based on the circumstances. It doesn't matter HOW the details gets put in place, but once people believes it, it becomes real. In a mirror to the Abrahamic belief (god created man in his image) man creates Deity in his own image (with some extra stuff like a few extra pairs of arms)

Can these behaviours be changed? Of course!! 'God takes the form the devotee imagine' is a very well established principle.

So, it is perfectly possible to 're-imagine' the Deity at Sabarimala as a regular one who do not have this ascetic mode setting installed in. The problem is, how will you deploy this setting update to the crores of 'users' out there? Unfortunately there is no overlord Google/Microsoft/Apple/Linus Torwalds/ to do this effectively.

Aaaand.. like many of the real life software updates, is it really needed, or would it be pushing the interest of someone?

I have a 'Plan Z' in case things go really bad. Shhh... it is a secret weapon, to be used only under a zombie apocalypse type situation. No one who matter reads BRF, so the secret is safe here.

1) Extract ('aavaahanam' in tantric term) the ascetic essence ('chaithanya' in tantricspeak) of the Diety, and install the same at the old tribal temple at Ponnambala medu, and forbid ALL visits there. This will satisfy the original wish as per the legend.

2. Install the 'non ascetic' version of the lord at Sabarimala, and declare that now the restrictions are off.

I think the mass can be convinced of it if the Tantri (not the accused Mohanaru or his young son. Everyone trust Rajeevaru) says "I have no choice. I need to protect the Diety"

Would people continue to visit Sabarimala in the new 'avatar'? I wouldn't, unless there is a motorable, clean and organized facility like Tirupati. I do the yearly penance and trek because of the belief in the legend (by my worldly side). My philosophical side do not need to go anywhere to interact with god.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Pulikeshi » 14 Oct 2018 11:00

ramana wrote:I don't understand why Hindus are not allowed to have their beliefs?
This is a matter of faith not of laws.


Different framework... we are seekers there is no faith, established in Indian law are the rights of the Diety. The true devotee seeks.
Manithan unarnthu kolla, ithu manitha kaathal allae. Atheyum thaandi, ithu punithamaanathu. :mrgreen:

Sorry cannot translate, but google will find you something close...

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Prasad » 14 Oct 2018 13:34

The secular state that Hindus consider a replacement for the royals who were patrons of temples across the land is a predator. Hindus do not realise this and cry that the judiciary interferes. The battleground that is the SC needs to be fought in the parliament. We need to get enough people to understand this.

The seculars conveniently point to caste discrimination boogie to prevent any debate to remove temples from the clutches of the govt.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 14 Oct 2018 21:12

Prasad wrote:The secular state that Hindus consider a replacement for the royals who were patrons of temples across the land is a predator. Hindus do not realise this and cry that the judiciary interferes.

Some smart people seems to have realised this :). Subramaniam Swamy has filed a petition in Supreme Court asking that Muzrai Dept./Devaswom Boards have to be disbanded and all temples to be handed over to Hindus. That itself has actually set off the cat among the pigeons (Devaswom Boards in Kerala - staffed with useless politicians & intellectuals et.al who see their jobs at risk now).

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2018 04:02

Folks give the arguments a rest and follow the developing news.
There is a mass wave of protests spreading all over South India.

Yet we see no report here despite calling ourselves ahead of the curve and all that!!!

At a minimum post the twitter feeds of Dileep.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby arshyam » 16 Oct 2018 06:50

Sachin wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:I don't know the full text of the Petition, and how much it got distorted in reporting, but at first reading it sounds like a jumbled mess of insinuations with no facts.

True. The petition which was filed at Kerala HC, was filed by a person who had no locus standi (i.e non-Muslim), and he had no supporting evidence to justify his petition. Where as in Sabari Mala case, the petitioners were all Hindu women; who conveniently was represented by a Muslim lawyer. But now the women themselves have filed a petition, and we need to watch how that goes. But to be frank, I have serious doubts on the interpretation of "secularism" when it comes to Islamic belief systems.

Whatever be the merits of the petition's arguments (it could be poor reporting as well), retd. judge Markandey Katju has this to say:

Women’s Entry Into Mosques: Kerala High Court Approach Not In Conformity With Apex Court - Markandey Katju, Swarajya
<snip>The reasons given by the Kerala High Court for dismissing the petition are as follows:

The High Court observes “Averments in the writ petition do not suggest that the petitioner is a person who should ordinarily be concerned with the rituals and practices of the Islamic religion”.

In other words, the petitioner lacks locus standi.

The High Court also accused the petitioner of being motivated with a desire for cheap publicity.

But if the Supreme Court did not dismiss the Sabarimala petition filed by the Indian Young Lawyers Association, who also did not have any personal grievance, on these grounds, should the Kerala High Court have done so?

The High Court says that the petitioner “has not satisfactorily established his credentials as a person who has a history of espousing such causes before the superior courts of our country”.

This is a novel invention of the High Court. Now, in order to make a public interest litigation petition maintainable, the petitioner must “establish his credentials as a person who has a history of espousing such causes before the superior courts”.

In other words, he must be a ‘muqadmebaz’.

The High Court says the petitioner does not represent Muslim women. But neither did the Indian Young Lawyers Association, which had moved the Sabarimala temple entry petition in the Supreme Court. The rule that the petitioner must be personally aggrieved to make his petition maintainable was discarded by the Supreme Court long ago in S P Gupta vs Union of India in 1982, followed by a series of decisions, e.g., Bandhua Mukti Morcha vs Union of India, People's Union of Democratic Rights vs Union of India, and the rule of locus standi has been changed since then. How could the High Court ignore all this?

The High Court also said that “the writ petition does not disclose material that would suggest that there is an established practice whereby Muslim women are being denied entry into mosques”.

But for that, the Court could have easily appointed an advocate commissioner to inspect mosques in the state and report on their practice. <snip>


A lot of these protests are underpinned by the feeling of "only our (Hindu) traditions are being interfered with", and this feeling is growing among the Hindu middle class. Successive openly one-sided "activist" rulings by the courts don't help. This would eventually end up in a lack of respect for our own institutions, and maybe a greater mistrust of the state itself. This is dangerous. The Ayodhya judgment will be the litmus test for the way of things going forward.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 16 Oct 2018 11:23

1)Sabarimala talks today; Attempt to reach consensus. The facilities this time at Sabari Mala and Pampa (the climbing point) is really going to be bad this time. The floods and land slides have really caused havoc in the area, and the state goverment has not managed to bring back the situation and where close to normalcy. Leave alone women enthusiasts (not devotees) even men devotees are going to find things tough this time around.
2){Devaswom Minister} Kadakampalli {Surendran} clarifies on row over Sabarimala revenue.. This seems to be another gimmick. Rs. 683 crores received as donations to the temple, and Rs. 678 crores just spent on meeting the expenses of the temples. The temple staff are actually paid a low salary (though they get a pension), and it is hard to believe that Rs. 678 crores are just considered as expenses. Only an RTI can show the right picture. For there are rumours that the other Kerala Govt. departments send a hefty bill to the Travancore Devaswom Board for the "services rendered".

arshyam wrote:A lot of these protests are underpinned by the feeling of "only our (Hindu) traditions are being interfered with", and this feeling is growing among the Hindu middle class. Successive openly one-sided "activist" rulings by the courts don't help. This would eventually end up in a lack of respect for our own institutions, and maybe a greater mistrust of the state itself.

Off course yes. To be frank, I feel the credibility of the judiciary is at the lowest in the last 4-5 years. The trust on the judicial establishment seems to be just vanishing. I was watching a TV program which talks about old criminal cases. There was a case in KL which happened in 1980s when a man killed 4 people of a family, one after other. He was sentenced to death; and his appeal was actually not even considered at Supreme Court. The then Hon.SC did not find any merit in holding a retrial. The death sentence was carried out in early 1990s (one of the last two executions to have happened in KL). Consider the situation where every one now can just approach the Supreme Court, that too directly for many cases. And that too courts interfere in every thing from temple management to cricket. It is I guess the political disunity prevalent in the country, which allowed such things to happen.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby chetak » 16 Oct 2018 11:27

Sachin wrote:1)Sabarimala talks today; Attempt to reach consensus. The facilities this time at Sabari Mala and Pampa (the climbing point) is really going to be bad this time. The floods and land slides have really caused havoc in the area, and the state goverment has not managed to bring back the situation and where close to normalcy. Leave alone women enthusiasts (not devotees) even men devotees are going to find things tough this time around.
2){Devaswom Minister} Kadakampalli {Surendran} clarifies on row over Sabarimala revenue.. This seems to be another gimmick. Rs. 683 crores received as donations to the temple, and Rs. 678 crores just spent on meeting the expenses of the temples. The temple staff are actually paid a low salary (though they get a pension), and it is hard to believe that Rs. 678 crores are just considered as expenses. Only an RTI can show the right picture. For there are rumours that the other Kerala Govt. departments send a hefty bill to the Travancore Devaswom Board for the "services rendered".

arshyam wrote:A lot of these protests are underpinned by the feeling of "only our (Hindu) traditions are being interfered with", and this feeling is growing among the Hindu middle class. Successive openly one-sided "activist" rulings by the courts don't help. This would eventually end up in a lack of respect for our own institutions, and maybe a greater mistrust of the state itself.

Off course yes. To be frank, I feel the credibility of the judiciary is at the lowest in the last 4-5 years. The trust on the judicial establishment seems to be just vanishing. I was watching a TV program which talks about old criminal cases. There was a case in KL which happened in 1980s when a man killed 4 people of a family, one after other. He was sentenced to death; and his appeal was actually not even considered at Supreme Court. The then Hon.SC did not find any merit in holding a retrial. The death sentence was carried out in early 1990s (one of the last two executions to have happened in KL). Consider the situation where every one now can just approach the Supreme Court, that too directly for many cases. And that too courts interfere in every thing from temple management to cricket. It is I guess the political disunity prevalent in the country, which allowed such things to happen.


The next logical step down this very slippery slope is the SC starting a "collection" for the building of dams. :mrgreen:

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 16 Oct 2018 12:28

All vehicles are being checked by devotees at Nilackal, the main road head. This place is some 20km before Pampa, where the road actually ends. Since that place is practically washed away, all vehicles stop at Nilackal, and only KSRTC service to Pampa. A few journalist women are made to de-board the bus. A Times Now shrill in a taxi is also sent back from Nilackal.

Devotees are planning to deploy en masse at various points and check all vehicles. Right now, police is not interfering, but that can change, as 'orders' come from above. But I don't think it will be feasible to remove the devotees by force because of the inaccessibility of the place. There is just one motorable road to the place.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 16 Oct 2018 14:11

Dileep wrote:All vehicles are being checked by devotees at Nilackal, the main road head. This place is some 20km before Pampa, where the road actually ends.

I am expecting some fire works tonight. The "secular" government and the police may try some quick raids and lathi charges in the night. The way Delhi Police lathi charged Baba Ram Dev's devotees is an example of such shenanigans from the police. At night time the vigil would be completely down, especially if the protesters are common people who would think the police also sleeps when they are asleep. I expect a much more larger police force to reach Nilakkal and Pamba area during the night hours.

As per this report in Malayalam today's discussion between the Devaswom Board, the Pandalam Royal Family and the Chief priests have also failed. The Devaswom Board says they *may* file a review petition, but nothing concrete beyond that. And I still cannot understand the stand of the GoKL who have kind of taken it a "mission" to just implement this verdict. Their seems to be some sinister motive behind this.


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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 16 Oct 2018 16:10

Arima wrote:Buddhist color to Ayyapa looks real interesting-
some reference from google

References are all good, but it would take some more communist propaganda to change the current belief system amongst the Kerala Hindus. Communists may find the caste based splitting more easier.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 16 Oct 2018 20:17

As Laurel said to Hardy:

NOW u r using MAH Brain!

As per UBCN Constipational Law Expertise as mentioned above, ***ONLY** the tribal descendants of Rsi Sabari have any rights there. Now SC is seen as invading sacred Tribal Culture, which is phorbidden onlee under Indian Constitution.

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: In a fresh twist to the Sabarimala temple controversy, the Mala Araya tribal community will file a review petition against the Supreme Court verdict that allowed women of all ages to enter the hill shrine.
The Mala Araya community is believed to have established the shrine, which was taken over by the Pandalam royal family and later by the Travancore Devaswom Board (TDB).The Akhila Thiruvithamkoor Mala Araya Maha Sabha (ATMAMS) will file the petition through P N Vijayakumar, former district judge and chairman of the Kerala State Commission for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes.Sabha general secretary K K Gangadharan said the state government decision to not file a review petition against the SC verdict has disappointed community members.
“Several rituals and customs of the temple, including the age bar, are part of tribal culture and traditions. They should not be altered,” he said. “The 41-day vruta or abstinence is part of the tribal culture. Women in our sect, as in most other tribal communities, would not visit temples during menstruation. The vruta and restrictions for women were part of our culture, which were approved by the Pandalam royals and the thantri.”


I don't think it is a slam-dunk yet, because the SC will be told that it is no longer tribal territory, Twin Elephants own it, etc., but at least the MOHAWG is now on the side of the yindoo agitators.

Again, The Guiding Hand has made the Rich & Powerful and the Commies all go on their knees before the Mala Araya Mah Sabha (Hill neighborhood Big Society). Karma.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 16 Oct 2018 20:58

UlanBatori wrote:I don't think it is a slam-dunk yet, because the SC will be told that it is no longer tribal territory, Twin Elephants own it, etc., but at least the MOHAWG is now on the side of the yindoo agitators.

The current plan of GoKL seems to be some how get some women up there to Sabari Mala, and then say that "once a tradition is a broken, why try to retain it or bring it back". Pinarayi Vijayan is trying to become what the arch-crook EMS Namboodirippad hoped to become. A "social reformer" like Adi Shankara who brought revolutionary changes in temple worship etc.

At present what is happening is that all protestors are clubbed as RSS & BJP "anti-socials" with the main stream media supporting the GoKL to the hilt. The whole protest is also now becoming a porridge with multiple cooks being involved. There are the genuine devotees who are protesting, and their hopes are non political entities like the chief priest and the royal family. Then there are the political party workers (all except CPI(M)) who also have their own devotion+political agenda. The CPI(M) riff-raffs have also started targetting the chief priest and royal family as the "bourgeois" & "class enemies" of the proletriat.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2018 21:49

Sachin wrote;

At present what is happening is that all protestors are clubbed as RSS & BJP "anti-socials" with the main stream media supporting the GoKL to the hilt. The whole protest is also now becoming a porridge with multiple cooks being involved. There are the genuine devotees who are protesting, and their hopes are non political entities like the chief priest and the royal family. Then there are the political party workers (all except CPI(M)) who also have their own devotion+political agenda. The CPI(M) riff-raffs have also started targetting the chief priest and royal family as the "bourgeois" & "class enemies" of the proletriat.


Exactly my argument that the protest should not seen to be hijacked by national level RSS or BJP but let state units support in their state level capacity. otherwise the protests will be mislabeled and the tempo lost.
But many RW on twitter want the national level parties to take a stance and this will only diminish the groundswell of the Hindu population outrage.

The CPM will lose the base just you watch and see.
Adi Sankara came from Kerala and revived Sanathan Dharma after the comatose stupor from the two dissent preacher cults.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2018 21:57



Arima,
Since the colonial interludes lot of psy-ops about idols and temples being made in image of Buddha and stupas were cooked up.
I say cooked up for Vishnu Dharmottara sutra which is in the Vishnu purana and governs the shilpa sastra has very clear instructions on how to make idols or sculptures for different deities. And temple architecture is also very well defined.

On the contrary I would argue that Buddhists made images of Buddha just as there were idols after the Mahayana split.
And stupas were to house the relics of the Buddha.

Similarly the Catholic church before the Reformation used to sell body parts of 'saints' or house them in Churches to attract pilgrims. Florence, Milan and Venice Museums have many such Christian relics.

Temples never are defiled with dead body parts.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2018 22:03

Actually Lord Ayappa has shown the duplicity and institutional bias of the judiciary in India.

Kerala High Court finds the Hindu petitioner has no locus standi to ask for admission of Muslim women to Mosques.
Same time Supreme Court finds a Muslim petitioner in New Delhi, has all the right to demand admission of women to Sabarimala temple in Kerala!

Truly in one fell swoop Lord Ayappa has removed our ignorance.

Even Katju is eating badam and getting gnan.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 17 Oct 2018 00:02

Police crackdown has started at Nilakkal and Pamba (as I predicted).

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 17 Oct 2018 02:05

ramana, as I heard it the Petitioner in the SC was several yindoo wimmens, represented by a lawyer who happened to be of Other Community - which should be completely irrelevant. There is no law on lawyer's religious qualification to file a case.

The Petition filed by the yindoo neta was filed by him as Petitioner, with no evidence that anyone was preventing Muslim wimmens from entering mosque. Also threw in something about Burkha being terrorist, just in case TheirHonners didn't see the Petition was incompetent.
Obviously it was filed to be rejected, precisely to excite outrage. Cynical manipulation. He probably did a lot of damage to real worshippers with that stunt.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby krisna » 17 Oct 2018 05:20

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/sabarimala-shrine-opens-kerala-cars-checked-nilakkal-pinarayi-vijayan-lord-ayappa-supreme-court-5405230/
He said that the issue at stake in Sabarimala was a chronic one. “The government is of the view that the women and men have equal rights to worship. The government is duty-bound to implement the SC verdict,’’ he said. Vijayan also delved deep into the state’s tradition of reformation. “All social reformation initiatives faced resistance from orthodox elements of those periods. When women fought for their right to cover breasts, they had faced opposition. Social reformers Sree Narayana Gura and Ayyankali taught that certain traditions are meant to be violated. This state has undergone changes when Left parties and peasant organisations took that spirit of social reformation forward.’’


True Indology on twitter

This is a myth.There was no Nangeli in history and there was never any breast-tax on "lower" caste women in Kerala.

Kerala has tropical climate and in pre-modern Kerala many women including Brahmins did not cover their breasts. This "breast-tax" is a recently fabricated lie


Before advent of British Morals, most Pre Modern Kerala women of all castes freely went around topless

This anti Hindu myth was fabricated to break Indian society, I challenge scroll(commie magazine) to show one contemporary reference to "Nangeli" or retract their lies


many commies and chrisislamic forces use this argument to blame Hindus all the time.
Unfortunately many gullible hindus also succumb to this propaganda.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 17 Oct 2018 06:07

Marco Polo wrote about this in his travels book.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby krisna » 17 Oct 2018 06:18

Unless I am mistaken- marco polo wrote that both men and women did not wear much clothes due to hot climate etc. similar findings of men and women with little dress seen in other parts of India including orissa WB etc.Also seen in Africa and other areas. tribal belts even today have less clothes.
There was no breast tax in kerala except in commie circles.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby krisna » 17 Oct 2018 06:28

https://swarajyamag.com/politics/zero-marx-how-the-left-has-divorced-itself-from-its-core-hindu-vote-base
Don't think this was posted. This is the socio political ramifications of Sabaramalai issue. I have posted mostly the commie entrenched in kerala. many non kerlaites don't understand this phenomena as to how Hindus repeatedly vote commies despite anti Hinduism
However, the real problem with the Left in India is that it has an Abrahamic force, divorced from Indian, and especially Hindu, roots. And this despite the fact that it is the Hindu vote that has kept it in power in West Bengal, Tripura and Kerala so far. The Left has refused to acknowledge this reality, and its foot-soldiers in academic institutions have been anti-Hindu in their official posturing, whether it was in their rendering of Islamic history or in the kind of nonsense history they peddled on behalf of the Babri Masjid petitioners before the Allahabad High Court (read about the Left perfidy in the Babri case here). And now, they have done the same in the Sabarimala case.


The Left is an anachronism and misfit in India largely because it chose to force-fit Indian realities in a hackneyed Marxist framework. Karl Marx wrote most of his speculations on India without coming within a thousand miles of the country, which meant that his information was based on the same distortions peddled by Western Indologists and others with similar prejudices. This is why scores of Indian regional parties, with far less intellectual heft than the Left, achieved political growth through their discovery of caste loyalties while the Left stuck to its class theory and came a cropper. Its academicians pontificated about empowering the underclass and wrote subaltern history, but when genuine subaltern classes came to power – Mayawati, Lalu Prasad, Narendra Modi – it did not discard its faulty lenses.

Put simply, the Indian Left’s lenses are no different from the Abrahamic lenses of the West, for Marxism in the West is a logical extension of the universalisms created by Judaism, Christianity and Islam. In India, Marxism thus had no understanding of the essentially plural nature of Indian universalism.


In the Abrahamic worldview, there are only binaries. My god or your god. My book and nothing else. My way or the highway. There are no spaces for nuances or the grey zone. Thus, Sabarimala has to be about equality of genders or anti-women discrimination, when there are words like differentiation and diversity that describe its practices better. If you want to fight gender battles in the temple, there are far better issues to fight for than the lone differentiated temple called Sabarimala. For example, why not fight for greater women priests or women discovering their Stree Shakti in temples dedicated to their empowerment?


why do Hindus vote commies in 3 states of Tripura kerala and WB
Which still leaves us wondering why the Left even found some traction in the three states it has often ruled. Actually, the reason is so blindingly obvious that most people miss it. After Partition, the Congress took the minority vote, by promising protection to Muslims. This left Hindus with no alternative but to opt for the Left, which at least didn’t appear to be keen to appease minorities at the cost of Hindus. In Tripura, the Left grew on the base of the Hindus driven out of Islamist East Pakistan and Bangladesh. In Kerala, it is the Congress-led United Democratic Front (UDF) which is a communal coalition, with Muslim, Christian and small community parties running the show. The Congress is the only one with some Hindu following.


why muslims and Christians are safe wrt commies brain washing
The Left found Hindus, with their openness to agnostic and even atheist beliefs, more accepting of their ideology than Abrahamic groups like Christianity and Islam – and did not even figure this out for decades. In Abrahamic theology, there is place for only one god and that god is not Marx even if all these ideologies draw from the same well of binary universalism. If I am right, you are wrong.


About Kerala
In Kerala, the Left arrogantly thought that the state’s high scores on human indices was its own progressive contribution, when the reality is that this differential preceded its rise to power, thanks to the enlightened attitudes of the local Hindu rulers and social movements led by Sree Narayana Guru, who emancipated the downtrodden Ezhavas. The Left simply took this constituency over, and pretended that the Hindu enlightenment that preceded them did not exist. Until the BJP started wooing the Ezhavas and the Nairs, the Left did not deign to honour Sree Narayana Guru or celebrate Hindu festivals with any degree of pride.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby habal » 17 Oct 2018 07:44

Sachin wrote:Police crackdown has started at Nilakkal and Pamba (as I predicted).


Sachin, IIRC you predicted police lathi charge like in ramlila maidan.


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