Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby abhijitm » 28 Oct 2018 13:00

Jaitley, finance minister, has come down heavily on SC supporting devotees. This is good. So devotees should be assured that BJP (and BJP in center government) is with them. It is a matter of suspense what exactly they are planning to do.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Gyan » 28 Oct 2018 13:09

Look at the Constitution of Bench Hearing Ram Mandir case. It's not happening. So BJP belatedly trying to get some milage from Sabrimala issue after ignoring rather decimating Hindu Causes for 4.5 years.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby abhijitm » 28 Oct 2018 15:07

Congress is showing its true colors. It is dangerous that they are leading the legal proceedings. They can sabotage and say 'look we tried'.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 28 Oct 2018 15:20

BJP too can. Can't they?

Look, the review petition is going to fail. As I see it, the ONLY thing that can end the issue is legislation specifically granting the Deity the right of privacy. The CG is the one that can do it.

The issue will be kept simmering for long (which is fine, as long as the 'breach of tradition' doesn't happen), at least well after the next election. If BJP plays it right, they may manage to get a few seats. If they put out the right signals, even I might vote them.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 28 Oct 2018 15:31

Dileep wrote:If Amit Shah was serious, he should have declared that "the central govt is considering all options to solve this issue, including legislation, and participating in the review petition".

Well, I wouldn't have complained if AS mentioned something the central govt intend to do. Yes, his 'support' is indeed valuable, but it could have been better.

A.Shah is not part of the government so he may NOT be able to commit on what options the central government plans to or can do. And my gut feeling is that the plan for maintaining status quo at Sabari Mala may not be a very straight forward one; like passing an ordinance. There would be multiple channels - offical and unofficial - which the BJP may use to resolve the issue. But one thing for sure, BJP now cannot go back on its commitments. Their Hindutwa trump card would completely be gone, if they now try to weasel out. My hunch is that when the case comes up for rehearing, SC may ask for a report from central government. And this report would highly recommend a status quo; listing out the dubious intentions of GoKL, the people who tried to enter the shrine and the L&O issues which it led to. SC can then take a call including a rehearing by a bigger bench. SC also cannot be seen as losing its H&D.

The issue will be kept simmering for long (which is fine, as long as the 'breach of tradition' doesn't happen), at least well after the next election.

One way for that to happen is SC going for a rehearing in front of a bigger bench. The case can now go for a 7 member bench, then there is also a 9 member bench. So to solve the immediate problem (i.e GoKL govt asked to maintain status quo) the case would go for a bigger bench. And there the hearings would take many more years to be completed. BJP and Congress can both claim "victory", but the issue will be still remain in a undecided state. The communists also seems to be wary of this, so now they have actually put the Sabari Mala issue in the back burner, and now trying to split the Hindu society on caste lines. The communist party in Kerala, seems to be completely driven by BIF. Now I see a lot many X'ians and Muslims having a sudden love for Lord Ayyappa and women's rights as well as realising the importance & impartiality of the judiciary in India ;).

Gyan wrote:So BJP belatedly trying to get some milage from Sabrimala issue after ignoring rather decimating Hindu Causes for 4.5 years.

They did get involved in Sabari Mala issue pretty late. Congress also did the same thing, but decided to make a U turn earlier. BJP would be shooting on its own foot, now if they weasel out. Amit Shah's message is now reached many more Indians (not just Keralites). With many states also going for local elections in next 1-2 months, BJP cannot be seen as a party giving up on Hindutwa.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby chetak » 28 Oct 2018 16:15

disha wrote:
Sachin wrote: When it comes to Sabari Mala, the only people who are happy about the police action seems to be Muslims or X'ians (who NOW says that a court order has to be respected). The flow of events in Kerala, gives me a strong feeling that she is ruled by a puppet government with BIF controlling them.


Commies are playing their last card - caste. That is what was played 3 decades back in Guj (KHAM) and variations of it are being played in BIMARU.

I hope it leads to realization among the emasculated hindus that the chrislamists & commies in power will do nothing about the bishops and the padres and the mullahs but will be every active to tie all the ills of the world on the "lack of hindu progressive ethos"!


Isn't it true that in KL, someone cannot become the CM without the blessings of a specific brand of clergy??

This is exactly where the BIF rears it's ugly head.


They are the ones who stand to gain the maximum out of this slanted/planted verdict. The "police" escort is towards this end only. Also, the congis are now back in firm control of the SC.

Like @Sachin rightly said, the police have no business "escorting" any "devotee" to the shrine. That they have been ordered to do so begs the question, Cui bono? or literally "to whom is it a benefit?"??

For the commies, this may well turn out as a vote losing issue and that would have sunk in well before the fiasco. The subsequent mass arrests may be the last ditch efforts this very same BIF trying to regain control of the narrative which the commies are fast losing.

The women are mere pawns in this case. Even the channels which were represented by these pawns were the really obscure ones whereas the usual established ones didn't take the risk of having some well known reporter on the ground. The possible backlash of lost advertising revenues would have made them more circumspect in this highly polarizing matter.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby arvin » 28 Oct 2018 17:19

I am just having a hope SC might review its judgement on account of following reasons as seen in light of what happened in last 2 weeks

1.) Almost Zero interest among common hindu women devotees (10 - 50) particularly from kerala to visit the temple. In fact they are ok with curent tradition.

2.) 100 % interest among journalists (NYT), rehana and SP manju (UDF) types just to prove a point and gain entry into record books.

3.) Two major national parties clearly making their stand clear of not allowing tradition to be broken.

4.) Article 25?? in constitution for freedom to practise religion or something similar.

5.) Tendency of certain regional parties to push their caste agendas using equality judgement as a excuse.

I doubt SC would like to keep this simmering. Amit shah statements yesterday were also aimed at SC I think.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby chetak » 28 Oct 2018 17:24

^^^^^^^

The SC has been squarely targeted both by jaitley as well as AS.

They are both heavyweight indictments of the SC that cannot go unnoticed by anyone.

The views of the govt, as well as the party, have been made more than explicit.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby abhijitm » 28 Oct 2018 17:26

Article 25 is the weak point of Hindus in India. There are no clear procedures, book based on which we have defined our practicies so SC can interpret as they see fit and dismiss any hindu practice. We in our only land cannot guarantee that our religious rights and privacy can be protected. Time to clearly, unambigously define what Hindu religion is and make amend in the constitution accordingly.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 28 Oct 2018 17:31

disha wrote:UB Saar, I would not put past you to just read headlines & particularly from likes of TOIlet and indulge in whataboutery. Are you trying to resurrect Rehanas’ career on this pages?

Sorree onlee, I forgot to fill out Request 4 Permission 2 Request Permission to post a simple link to what the opposition is doing. No, I don't just read headlines, I read the whole thing, which is why I did not post the excerpts, only the link. Let me explain the process followed by UBCN: We scan for NEWs, and read what is going on. From all sides. Perhaps u would counsel posting only the OLDs that show OUR side to be winning all the time, without regard to what the other is doing? But then why post at all, since there is no shortage of rah-rahs jumping up and down trying to outdo each other in righteous holy outrage, while the other side is busy gnawing at your support structure behind you.
How do u plan to get ahead of the other side if u have no clue what they are up to? Rehanabibi and her backers are certainly not sitting still: "Unfazed" is the term used. Note how quickly they got her transferred out of public visibility? While HER side is published?
-Where are the photos of children putting the fear into the NYT bibi?
-Any articles published by "Our Side"?
-Bow to Dileepji and HNji and some others, but where are the rest, other than the assholes filing periodic complaints to adminullahs about "hurt religious sentiments"?
BTW, I happen to agree with the frustration expressed by Dileepji. Familiar feeling to anyone who goes out and actually does some fighting. Glance over your shoulder and you see Our Side standing around chewing betel and picking their (noses). And claiming credit, of course.

>>>> Answer to ur question: Rehana's career has received a huge boost, from mere troublemaker bissing off the mullahs about Muslim wimmens covering their forearms, to national-scale political neta who puts her ***** on the line, standing up for The Downtrodden against "Paternalistic"... etc. First Woman CM of Kerala in social media era? (Just remembered that in uber-liberated Malloostan there has NEVER been a woman CM!!!)

Our Side missed the opportunity through poor planning. NO, she should not have been allowed to go any further toward Sabarimala, but she should have been welcomed as a Yindoo and asked to do whatever good Hindus are supposed to do. Maybe join BJP and scratch her **** too? At minimum, that would have made her really Non-Person with the commie-pakis. Also given competition to Arundhati and ilk.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Primus » 28 Oct 2018 18:08

Dileep wrote:Well, I wouldn't have complained if AS mentioned something the central govt intend to do. Yes, his 'support' is indeed valuable, but it could have been better. All these "brick by brick" talk is nice to hear, but a simple statement of some action by the CG would have been immensely better.

We are watching. We will not forget.


AS cannot directly say the CG is going to do anything, that is breaking the law. Note, in his speech he said the BJP workers (and not the BJP or the government itself) would be the ones who would break down the Commies 'brick by brick'. That metaphor BTW means we will literally destroy each little brick of your establishment, i.e. reduce you and yours to rubble. He did say the BJP would stand behind the devotees 'like a rock', which is about as far as he can go.

The Sabarimala issue is simmering, there is no doubt, and it may well be the spark that is needed to light the fire under the collective Hindu backside to goad them into a united front against the BIF. One can only hope.....

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dumal » 28 Oct 2018 19:01

Primus wrote:
Dileep wrote:Well, I wouldn't have complained if AS mentioned something the central govt intend to do. Yes, his 'support' is indeed valuable, but it could have been better. All these "brick by brick" talk is nice to hear, but a simple statement of some action by the CG would have been immensely better.

We are watching. We will not forget.


AS cannot directly say the CG is going to do anything, that is breaking the law. Note, in his speech he said the BJP workers (and not the BJP or the government itself) would be the ones who would break down the Commies 'brick by brick'. That metaphor BTW means we will literally destroy each little brick of your establishment, i.e. reduce you and yours to rubble...


Yes, this is probably the right way to interpret AS’s words but I would go one step further to say that the specifics - brick by brick, workers etc - are meant to be an antidote to the commies plan to deploy DYFI goons to control the pilgrims. I.e, you can expect a severe blowback if you employ these underhanded means. It should be seen as a warning to desist or else...

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ShyamSP » 28 Oct 2018 19:55

Sachin wrote:
The issue will be kept simmering for long (which is fine, as long as the 'breach of tradition' doesn't happen), at least well after the next election.

One way for that to happen is SC going for a rehearing in front of a bigger bench. The case can now go for a 7 member bench, then there is also a 9 member bench. So to solve the immediate problem (i.e GoKL govt asked to maintain status quo) the case would go for a bigger bench. And there the hearings would take many more years to be completed. BJP and Congress can both claim "victory", but the issue will be still remain in a undecided state. The communists also seems to be wary of this, so now they have actually put the Sabari Mala issue in the back burner, and now trying to split the Hindu society on caste lines. The communist party in Kerala, seems to be completely driven by BIF. Now I see a lot many X'ians and Muslims having a sudden love for Lord Ayyappa and women's rights as well as realising the importance & impartiality of the judiciary in India ;).


5-member bench is full bench so there is no other bench. Review should be competent and Hindus need competent lawyers as they are many loose ends in rights arguments and loopholes judgement arguments. Devotees were never part of the case to pronounce judgements on their rights.

Ultimately this turned out to be political pressure issue. They need to protest to get government pass law in favor of them instead of Judges passing a law overriding existing laws.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 28 Oct 2018 20:01

UB Saar, your proposal (to welcome the 'nude model cum activitist' to yindooism) is totally out of the box, great to hear at an academic conference room, but have as much chance of happening as many of similar out of the box ideas. Combining that with your earlier proposal to convert Sabarimala into another tourist-heritage-pilgrimage spot, Thank you, but no thank you. I wish people let alone the 'activitist' and deny her any publicity, but oh, well.

I for one, wouldn't mind converting Sabarimala into another Guruvayoor, at a point the vast majority of real devotees agree. I firmly believe that the 'devotee makes the deity'. Right now, millions of people honestly believe that he is celibate and don't want to see women of age 10-50. Therefore he is. If the same devotees believe otherwise, automatically he is that too.

So, we, the aam-swamys, have no choice, other than to fight on. It doesn't matter who supports us. Who stands besides us chanting 'saranam ayyappa'. Who stands around chewing betel. We thank all the supporters. We will not forget you. We note all who are indifferent and oppose us. We will not forget you either. Finally, we will definitely remember who tried to put a stake through our hearts.

And about Guruvayoor.. it is indeed a vrindavan, where rasaleela happens all the time. If anyone remember reading my little story centered there, it is a total mess of mass humanity, but apparently, the 'mischievous young boy' likes that. I am not sure about poor Manikandan, how much he would like. Maybe at some point 'learned' people like 'Sandeepananda Savari Giri Giri' can make a convincing story that Manikandan was indeed a playboy. Who knows. Maharshi Swarajananda has already made a story that Manikandan has already married Malikappurathamma. So, I wouldn't be surprised.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 28 Oct 2018 20:05

Anyone who think that the SC will do anything other than outright reject the review, like a quote from my cousin vinnie "That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection...... Overruled!", theyare grossly mistaken. It is a matter of H&D of the SC, and there is ample rules, conventions and precedences that dictate that the objections are baseless and can be rejected.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 28 Oct 2018 20:36

Dileep wrote:It is a matter of H&D of the SC, and there is ample rules, conventions and precedences that dictate that the objections are baseless and can be rejected.

There are also verdicts which were kept in abeyance after the state governments reported that the verdict cannot be implemented. And on the other possible options, it would be better that A.Shah & Co keeps quite and work behind the scenes. The Congress has taken the more direct route, and if it fails they can say "we tried, but you see we have limitations". But expectations on the BJP is now perhaps at the highest levels.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 28 Oct 2018 20:39

Sachin, can you cite precedence for this 'abeyance' thing?

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 28 Oct 2018 21:30

Dileep wrote:Combining that with your earlier proposal to convert Sabarimala into another tourist-heritage-pilgrimage spot, Thank you, but no thank you.

See? :roll: This is what RehanaBibi also complains about: Fake News about her carrying used s.ns etc. I **DID NOT** propose to "convert Sabarimala into another tourist-heritage-pilgrimage spot". Malloostan has no shortage of real-estate developer geniuses to do that. What I DID warn about, is that unless there was thoughtful strategizing by the Devotees, one could well imagine the Pandalam-Disney Rejort with a direct cable car ride from the nearest hill, to which there would be a 4-lane highway, a helipad and a hi-rise Sabari Lulu Resort Hotel. It has already happened to the Ayurvedic treatment centers, and many many other spots. Malloostanis are super-duper at imitating the template that has turned much of Thailand, Hawaii, South Pacific islands and so many places around the world into very pretty garbage dumps. And with all respect, all major Hindu places of worship are heading that way. Guruvayoor is one congested Condo City - and now they have knuckled under and allowed wimmens to enter the temple with Pakistani Fancy Dress. Where was the need to do that? They earned plaudits for insisting that President Singh not enter wearing a turban.

Tiruppati, I have not been there and do not plan to. Where you can pay $$ and jump ahead in line to "worship". Guruvayoor only gives a preference to Over-60s (yes, I know there is a sneaky line for VIPs/Devaswom Guests, but no explicit money-based preference).

Jagannath Puri is an absolute disgrace with the Worship Agints surrounding you as soon as you get down from your vehicle and mobbing you like the old Mumbai Airport dollar-exchange pimps. Probably much worse in the North Indian "Holy Places".

Amazingly, Sri Padmanabha Kshetram has retained some standards. So have some Bhagavati Kshetrams.

So far I think things are going straight towards that at SM. A Booking Scheme has been set up? Along the lines of Railway Booking System. Next will come A/C, First Class, Sleeper with Dining Car, etc etc.

It's not a problem of lacking "OutOfDaBox" thinking. It is a lack of anything but insect-like Stimulus Response.
If the Other Side has any semblance of brains - and they do - they will simply use Indian Laws against the Hindu Worshippers. Worship will still be "allowed" - the 80% herded by the agents of the 1% communists, Islamists and Conversionists. Fully supported by good Hindu chanchas of the Corporate BigWigs.
*********************************
Crack down, guys. Learn from the Taliban. Insist on a return to the original standards for the Pilgrimage Season, no compromise. Bounce all the outsiders to the rest of the year. Ask Pandalam etc to be satisfied with a slash in revenue to 1/20th of present level before it picks up again.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 28 Oct 2018 21:36

Latest I hear is that Pinnarai is considering imposing Section 144/ Emergency there. And.. attention of all Malloos is focused like deer caught in headlights, while the commies conveniently steal all the money from the CM's Disaster Relief Fund.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby disha » 28 Oct 2018 21:37

Wow Dileep Saar., we want to tell a political party prez which has zero seats on the ground on what to say & how to say!

On this very thread Rs 700 crore from UAE was talked about by commies as flood relief. And commies were slapped around, it took time. Point being commies can lie, cheat, rape & murder., actively encouraged by their chrislamists cohorts ( jalandhar bishop is moving around like a hero ) & their #mediapimps singing hosannas in the meanwhile.

A woman cabinet minister speaks out & her comments are immediately twisted & she is viciously targeted by #mediapimps. No sympathy from this thread either.

The said party is in power & also shows responsibility in its statements., unlike the other notional party whose head goes around like a headless chicken.

And in this level of political charged atmosphere, a clear threat is given to the commies & you have umbrage on how it is given!!! If this is not cognitive dissonance then I am not sure what it is.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby abhijitm » 28 Oct 2018 22:33

I would sincerely request to go easy on devotee posters who are hurt. Please avoid personal comments. This is already emotionally challenging time for them. Lets show some empathy.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 28 Oct 2018 22:40

>>Ask Pandalam etc to be satisfied with a slash in revenue to 1/20th of present level before it picks up again.

Sir, Pandalam guys get NOTHING. It is the DB that gets all the money. That is where we hit hard, by stuffing paper slips in the hundis. Pandalam handed over the 'nada varavu' as part of a debt restructuring plan with Travancore some time in late 1789 or so.

Ref dress tradition, if we really go traditional, men should go with a kaupeenam, mundu and randaam mundu. women should wear the 'onnara', mundu and topless with a thin 'neriathu' wrapped around the bosom. Sari and Set Mundu with blouse is not our tradition, you see? I see nothing wrong in the churidar/kurta set. I see a lot of leggings+kurti at temples here at Dera Mahabali, which for someone like moi who grew up in the $ex starved midlands is admittedly a distraction. But we have the tradition of temple structures don't we? And we are under no rule of celibacy while visiting the regular temples.

Sabarimala tradition is different. I can say honestly that during the penance, the sense of guilt is terrible, if you happen to get distracted even for a few seconds, be it on matter of food or flesh. Wearing the garland helps a lot, keeping constant reminder.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 28 Oct 2018 22:50

Disha, Well, we will see how things turn. We will all know who does what within less than a month. Even a 'non intervention agreement' is valuable during a war, right? If CG joins the review petition and support the devotees, that would be enough.

Abhijit, BRF is our brotherhood, so no need to go easy etc. People here might have noticed that I take strong stands when the issue is directly affecting me, and when I take a stand, I tend to go fox one.. fox two.. fox three.. on it.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Pulikeshi » 29 Oct 2018 00:07

abhijitm wrote:Article 25 is the weak point of Hindus in India. There are no clear procedures, book based on which we have defined our practicies so SC can interpret as they see fit and dismiss any hindu practice. We in our only land cannot guarantee that our religious rights and privacy can be protected. Time to clearly, unambigously define what Hindu religion is and make amend in the constitution accordingly.


It harder than removing the two syllables this process of racinating (no such word exists) the deracinated! :P

I brought Dharma and Smriti into the discussion many eons ago before the saffron mujahids were even birthed...
Much consternation occured - still does - some of which are still archived on the Religious threads of this forum -
understanding comes slower than realization. The framers of the Constitution one in particular and the silent role he played comes to mind...
If and when anyone wants to think through the evolution of the Smriti it is imperative to read the works of Alladi Krishnaswami Ayyar
As much as it is important to understand Manu’s genius as well as those of Narada, Yajnavalkya, Vigneshwara (of Mitakshara), etc, etc.
India has been blessed with genius and our social studies textbooks spent more time on -
Shah Jahan’s love for Mumtaz and Vasco-da-gama’s pajamas! :mrgreen:

It is time for Hindus to recover Sanathana Dharma!
Like Puranas when the Supremes commit an error, one of the trinity take it upon themselves to provide remedy - exactly what is needed...

The BJP/RSS birathers are misfortunately too far from several original principles of Dharma today... their journey has become about power...
They have zero understanding of the genius of the Smriti and do not understand the rights of the Diety - even educated Hindus think this obscure!
For example - some of us - do not support the Uniform Civil Code - rather it is ok for each to have their own codes established via Personal Law.
This is enshrined in the way Manu and others have argued the human condition - localization at a global scale is not a new concept for them!
That temples and Dharmic places of worship should be under the control of the devotes period full stop! The Darshan is a privilege not a right!

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby disha » 29 Oct 2018 09:36

Pulikeshi wrote:For example - some of us - do not support the Uniform Civil Code - rather it is ok for each to have their own codes established via Personal Law.


As long as the personal law is not in conflict with civil law, the personal law can be maintained.

Idiots bring in triple talaq vs. sabarimala., one infringes on the right of an individual human itself to live humanly with dignity and respect while the other is not any infringement in any manner on how an individual human can live humanly with dignity and respect.

Conflating this two is idiotic. Some of the muslim and xtian "personal law" must go. They are archaic and inhuman. They actually allow for rape and murder of women. No civil society can sanction that.

If you want to bring equivalency to sabarimala, you have to have the court declare that virgin mary is a superstition and such superstitions should be banned or prophet muhammed is not necessarily the last prophet. Both this are beyond the scope of this thread. So must not be debated.

Of course if the court says that muslims cannot offer namaaz five times a day since it takes a toll on productivity or must allow women offer namaz in parallel to men, then yes it is an infringement of SC on the rights of the muslim on how and when he/she wants to offer his/her prayers and should right fully be opposed.

None of this nuances should be reflection on BJP as a dharmic party (or an adharmic party). Their job is to make sure that Bharat remains unified and attains glory and I care a whit on how they go about achieving it. For that matter, that should be the goal of all political party., primarily they must be nationalistic and work towards the welfare of bharatiyas. That is their dharma. Your or mine interpretation of them being dharmic or adharmic is useless.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby mappunni » 29 Oct 2018 09:53

Today at 9 pm EST Kerala Hindus of North America along with other Mallu Hindu associations, organized a dial-in call with all those interested in Sabarimala issue. Many friends could not get on the call. Literally organizers didn't expect such a response.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 29 Oct 2018 12:20

Already downhill ski and infighting started in KL BJP.

K Surendran declared that he is going to SM on 5th and stay there co ordinating the protest. Sreedharan Pillai immediately weasels out saying "we will pray onlee.. support onlee.. we will not block onlee.. Amit Shahji said people will vote the commies out onlee.." I do not believe this is a "good cop-bad cop" play.

Either he is scared to get arrested, or he is in the lip service camp. Useful as much anyway.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby SSridhar » 29 Oct 2018 12:37

Ayyappa devotees to submit memorandum to [Tamilnadu] State - The Hindu
Chennai: Thousands of Ayyappa devotees in the State will be submitting a signed memorandum to the Tamil Nadu government asking them to request the Kerala Chief Minister not to implement the Supreme Court order, of allowing women to Sabarimala, in haste.

Kerala Chief Minister Pinarayi Vijayan has called for a meeting on October 31 with Ministers of religious departments in the Southern States to discuss facilities to be made during the Makara Villaku season in Sabarimala.


Plea to T.N. govt.

In the wake of the recent row in Sabarimala, the Ayyapa devotees in Chennai do not want the Tamil Nadu government to agree to any decision by the Kerala government that would hurt sentiments of a cross-section of devotees.

“We suspect that the Kerala government will try to gather support from the other Southern States in implementing the Supreme Court order. Hence, we will be collecting signatures in different Ayyappa temples across the State and submitting it to the senior bureaucrats on Tuesday morning. We expect full support from the Tamil Nadu government,” said Shashi Kumar, secretary of the Sree Ayyappa Bhakta Sabha.

Hundreds of devotees, including women, had gathered near the Mahalingapuram Ayyappa - Guruvayurappa temple to discuss the further course of action
in connection with the ongoing row in Sabarimala. “The Kerala government is using the official machinery to crush the peaceful protest of pilgrims. This is highly condemnable,” said Mr. Shashi Kumar.

The devotees were firm that they will not allow anything that would spoil the sanctity of Sabarimala. “The memorandum is just the first step to set the ball rolling,” added Mr. Shashi Kumar.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby arvin » 29 Oct 2018 12:41

BJP to hold 5 day rath yatra from kasargod to pathanamthita.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 406309.cms

They will plan it to pass thru pinarayi, CM's village. Strategy is to provoke him to do something stupid.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 29 Oct 2018 12:47

ShyamSP wrote:5-member bench is full bench so there is no other bench.

Looks like the full bench is actually "five or more judges". Refer to the case - 7-judge SC bench to examine criteria for quota in promotion. I think the CJI decides the number of judges required in the full bench hearing of cases.

Dileep wrote:Sachin, can you cite precedence for this 'abeyance' thing?

I will try to get you the details. I remember reading about a case in in UP -it was about taking up some religious building- to which UP Govt. said that executing the order would cause major L&O problems in the state. The verdict was not actually carried out. By the way here is an article about Supreme Court Reviewing Its Own Judgments. Along with "review petition", there is also another option known as "curative petition". When filing curative petitions - "The petitioner will have to establish that there was a genuine violation of principles of natural justice and fear of the bias of the judge and judgement that adversely affected him".

UlanBatori wrote:Latest I hear is that Pinnarai is considering imposing Section 144/ Emergency there.

Sec. 144 Cr.PC was declared the last time around also. But the catch is that Sabari Mala being a religious place, pilgrims had to be allowed. And it was these pilgrims who actually stood their ground when the police tried to play their tricks. From what I read today in news papers; two senior officials involved in the last time's screw up - Manoj Abraham & Sreejith would not be on duty during 5th and 6th Nov. Police also plans to "take control" of the shrine from 4th Nov, onwards.

Dileep wrote:Already downhill ski and infighting started in KL BJP.

Today I have 100% faith only in the Ayyappa devotees (the common man) in KL and in other states as well. Amit Shah came and made some grandoise statements, which again media could manipulate. Sreedharan Pillai became defensive after that. Now he plans to have a Rath Yatra from one end of Kerala to the other. Yes, it would be worthwhile to know what BJP is planning to do on 5th and 6th of Nov. Mean while the GoKL has now changed their stance that they would support the entry of any devotee, irrespective of gender. The High Court also put aside the petitions of some advocates etc. stating that when the petition was filed, the petitioners had not tried entering the place nor asked the police for help.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby chetak » 29 Oct 2018 12:52

Dileep wrote:Sachin, can you cite precedence for this 'abeyance' thing?



The precedence was already posted on your other blog on 17 oct.

It's about a shia sunni fight over a graveyard.

SC verdict not implemented for many decades by b@!!less wonders.

Because of the peculiar and virulent nature of the highly infectious disease, sickularitis indicus, whose primary and only symptom is that the sauce for the goose is not the same as the sauce for the gander.

Patient zero of the current virulent, infectious and contagious strain can be traced back to 1947 but the genesis of the disease is actually traceable back to its taking first roots in the Indian soil in the port of Surat, on August 24, 1608 AD, when it first arrived in India on the ship “Hector”, commanded by William Hawkins for East India Company.



twitter

Varanasi Shia burial ground judgement of SC given aginst Sunnis is pending for implementation for 40 years. Reason given was there would be riots if SC order was implemented. The SC accepted it & stayed its own order. If it can work for burial ground why not for Temple




Doshipura area of Varanasi under siege as Shias and Sunnis spar over two Sunni graves



Doshipura area of Varanasi under siege as Shias and Sunnis spar over two Sunni graves


Men of the Provincial Armed Constabulary (PAC) are conspicuous by their presence and the local police have been strengthened with armed reinforcements. Five companies of the PAC have been pressed into service here and a battalion of the Border Security Force (BSF) remains on the alert 6 km away. Some officials confided that there are at least 70 PAC and BSF companies waiting in reserve.

The massive bandobust has a very good reason. The Supreme Court has ordered that if the long-standing dispute between Shias and Sunnis over two Sunni graves in an overwhelmingly Shia area is not amicably solved by April 27, the graves will have to be shifted. The court on March 21 permitted Suleman Sait, MP and president of the All-India Muslim League, to try and bring about a settlement by then.

Many must be hoping he will succeed, for otherwise the consequences could be disastrous. "We stand by our decision to commit mass suicide or resist the move by all means. No Sunni Muslim will allow this to happen," stormed Sunni leader Irfanul Haq Ansari of Doshipura. Many Sunnis consider the court order an anti-Islamic action. "Nobody knows who will do what. Some will commit suicide and some will attack others," added another Sunni, Dr F. Kalam.

Doshipura's Shia-Sunni dispute began in the nineteenth century (India Today, January 15) over a plot of land donated by the Maharaja of Benares for common religious use. The first case involving a dispute between the two sects was recorded in 1878 and similar disputes continued through the years.

In October 1982 a Supreme Court-appointed committee reported that the Sunnis had vehemently opposed it but shifting the two graves seemed "quite feasible". It will not be until the graves are shifted as the court has finally ordered - or if an amicable agreement is reached by April 27 - that the matter will finally have been put to rest.

However, as the administration prepared to execute the court order, Anjum Qadar, president of the All-India Shia Conference, came out with the plea that the graves should not be removed as doing so would set a bad precedent.

Moreover, he said, neither of the two parties ever demanded shifting of the graves and it was the then commissioner who had created the problem. "There are known instances of graves having been removed, but not under compulsion," he says.

But 90-year-old Shia leader of Doshipura Iqbal Hussein accused Qadar of being a stooge of the Sunnis and said the demand for the removal of the graves was the main one. "Anjum gave us Rs 3,000 in 1981 to fight the court case. Now when the court has given its final verdict he has changed his stand, and without consulting the Shias he issued the statement saying no Shia wanted shifting of the graveyard," he added.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby hnair » 29 Oct 2018 14:09

SSridhar wrote:Ayyappa devotees to submit memorandum to [Tamilnadu] State - The Hindu
The devotees were firm that they will not allow anything that would spoil the sanctity of Sabarimala. “The memorandum is just the first step to set the ball rolling,” added Mr. Shashi Kumar.


Need more of this from outside Kerala's diaspora of Ayyapas. A lot more of this!!

The Field Marshal, he came like a boss, landing at the Kannur airport being prepped by kammies for launch ( :lol: ) but went back after a few rounds of sloganeering. Basically, leaving space to the state Congress, who has taken over the role of defending Sabarimala :shock:

As of now, Field Marshal in his infinite wisdom, wants the Ayyappas to win this brutal Battle of Kursk, but he can spare us only some paintball guns. Hope he changes his mind! The Malabar clique of Kerala Left is not going to go down without a big heave.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 29 Oct 2018 15:38

Mean while
1. On Kerala Floods - Salary challenge: SC rejects appeal, criticizes govt. The "name & shame" tactic to squeeze donations by force has now backfired. With this order there would be many more GoKL employees who would now refuse to give away a part of their salary.
2. On Sabari Mala issue - Real devotees will be provided security, Govt tells HC. But the moot question remains on who is a real devotee and who is not? What is the criteria, and who decides on the real v/s duplicate aspect.

hnair wrote:Basically, leaving space to the state Congress, who has taken over the role of defending Sabarimala.

Honestly sir, my sincere hope is that Ayyappa devotees and the average Hindu does not stop their actions hoping that BJP would do the hard work, and help them. Handing over the entire protests to BJP would be foolish.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dumal » 29 Oct 2018 15:47

hnair wrote:


Need more of this from outside Kerala's diaspora of Ayyapas. A lot more of this!!

The Field Marshal, he came like a boss, landing at the Kannur airport being prepped by kammies for launch ( :lol: ) but went back after a few rounds of sloganeering. Basically, leaving space to the state Congress, who has taken over the role of defending Sabarimala :shock:

As of now, Field Marshal in his infinite wisdom, wants the Ayyappas to win this brutal Battle of Kursk, but he can spare us only some paintball guns. Hope he changes his mind! The Malabar clique of Kerala Left is not going to go down without a big heave.


Maybe he didn't know that there were people who expected him to move his operations to Kerala or at least camp out for an extended period.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Yagnasri » 29 Oct 2018 16:44

BJP after 2014 is not BJP under ABV and LKA. The same leader whom people are ridiculing here led them to many wins with few defeats, created a foot print which is unimaginable before 2014. This BJP will not allow INC to take full advantage in KL as it used to be. INC will not have full credibility to fight for Sabarimalai as their national leadership is waging a Jihad on Hindus for over a decade and most of the Hindus know it. KL INC unit is left alone now and I do not see Pappu giving any support to the devotees of Lord Ayyappa.

These are early days in an agitation which may take any turn. Hindus of KL can not time and again vote for CPM and expect their religious rights protected at the same time. Not they have to fight hard so that others can support them. People from outside can only give limited support.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby arshyam » 29 Oct 2018 18:07

Hmm...

From ‘Rock’ At The Back To Rockstar In The Front? Amit Shah Likely To Visit Sabarimala During Mandala Season - Swarajya
Amidst the crisis the BJP national President Amit Shah may visit Sabarimala during the upcoming Mandalakalam pilgrimage season to offer prayers at the Ayyappa Temple, reports Malayala Manorama.

He assured complete support for the state leadership's call for launching protests against the 28 September verdict. The state has been in turmoil since. Kerala Communist government has arrested over 2000 Sabarimala protesters.

Reports suggest the leaders of the Kerala cell of BJP had requested Shah to take part in the party’s 'Rath Yatra' (8-13 November) in Pathanamthitta, he then declared his intention to make a visit and offer prayers at the hill shrine. The Yatra will conclude with a women’s rally.

He also reportedly is trying to conduct the protests under a broad banner. Tushar Vellappaly, head of the NDA ally Bharath Dharma Jana Sena (BDJS) along with BJP state chief PS Sreedharan Pillai took part in the meeting with Shah. Both would also lead the Rath-Yatra.

The BJP is fielding Thushar to counter his father Vellappally Natesan, chief of the Sreenarayana Dharma Paripalana Yogam, who rejected Shah's plea to bring SNDP into the protests.

Interestingly former police chief of Kerala TP Senkumar has also called Amit Shah, but no reports have confirmed former's entry to BJP.


Is he going to take the vratham?

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby arvin » 29 Oct 2018 19:00

Vratham is mandatory.

So chances of review in judgement seems high on nov 13. His outbursts in kannur yestrday stems from this confidence.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby chetak » 29 Oct 2018 19:20

Mandir Bachao: Why Sabarimala Is More Important Than Ram Mandir Right Now


Mandir Bachao: Why Sabarimala Is More Important Than Ram Mandir Right Now

R Jagannathan, Oct 29, 2018,


Snapshot
Amit Shah will have to win this test of wills first. Pehle mandir bachao, phir mandir banao. The BJP’s pathway to the south will be opened if it wins this contest.


Clearly, the Supreme Court is not going to play to the Bharatiya Janata Party’s (BJP’s) timeline on the Ram mandir in Ayodhya, as its decision to delay hearings till January shows. If anyone in the BJP thought this was going to happen before the 2019 elections, they must have been delusional. To expect the Supreme Court – in fact, any court – to decide such a hugely contentious issue just in time for an election would be damaging its own credibility. If the verdict went one way, it would have been accused of pandering to majoritarianism; if it went another way, it would have angered the Hindus. A compromise solution would have satisfied nobody, and more review petitions would have been filed.

The BJP is actually focusing on the wrong mandir: its priority should not be the Ram mandir, which can come in its own time, but Sabarimala. Its watchword for the coming elections should be Mandir Bachao, rather than Mandir Banao.

It is foolish to talk about a mandir that does not exist, when thousands of others in southern India face an existential crisis, thanks to state meddling in them. Sabarimala is Exhibit 1. If this mandir is saved from “secular” marauders, the remaining thousands of Hindu temples now under state control can entertain some hope of freedom some time in the not-too-distant future.

The BJP is fooling no one by its stand on Sabarimala – leave alone Ayodhya – when all it has words to offer. Two days ago, party president Amit Shah, in Kannur to open a party office, said that if the state government of Pinarayi Vijayan continued to harass Ayyappa devotees, who have been arrested by the thousand, the BJP would not hesitate to pull the state government down. He also wondered why the Supreme Court was issuing unimplementable orders, and how it decided that one fundamental right (article 14) could override another (articles 25-26, the right to religious freedom and practices).

However, there is no way Shah can pull down the Kerala government. And Vijayan has neatly turned the tables on Shah by asking whether he was threatening the state government or the Supreme Court. He is using strong-arm tactics and political misinformation to defeat the protestors, who are backed by the BJP, among others. One line of attack is to reduce the Sabarimala protests to a mere BJP/Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh ruckus. Another is to insidiously claim – and this may well work with Ezhavas and Dalits – that today women are barred from Sabarimala, tomorrow other castes too could be.

If the BJP really wants to win this contest of political, legal and social wills, and also fight the misinformation, it clearly has to take the battle to the Supreme Court before Vijayan changes the status quo in Sabarimala unilaterally – by pushing women in the 10-50 age group using the police, and imprisoning thousands before the temple opens on 17 November.

According to reports, more than 3,345 protestors have been arrested and 517 cases registered across Kerala by the Vijayan government. This must be one of the most draconian steps taken by any state government for preventing genuine devotees from protesting. So much for religious freedom in Kerala. It exists only for the state to harass believers in Swami Ayyappa – or Hindus in general.

If Shah wants to spike Vijayan’s guns, he has no option but to get the central government to move a plea in the Supreme Court calling for a stay of its September verdict on Sabarimala. It must also seek restraint orders on the Kerala government to force it to release devotees. The Kerala High Court did issue such a warning to the state government, but Vijayan will not listen unless these orders come from the Supreme Court. After all, he can claim he is only implementing what the highest court decreed.

Shah and the BJP will be judged not by their statements, but by strong legal and other interventions to prevent a Sabarimala breach by cultural vandals in the name of gender justice and equality.

It is odd to talk about a mandir in Ayodhya which won’t get built for years, and do nothing more than offer sound-bytes and verbal threats for a temple under siege by atheists and rogue activists who are probably not devotees by any stretch of the imagination.

The Communist Party of India (Marxist) has vowed revenge for being prevented by protestors from allowing the non-believers in when the temple last opened; the next time, Vijayan will make sure that there is no protestor around to prevent them.

Shah will have to win this test of wills first. Pehle mandir bachao, phir mandir banao. The BJP’s pathway to the south will be opened if it wins this contest.

Jagannathan is Editorial Director, Swarajya. He tweets at @TheJaggi.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Pulikeshi » 29 Oct 2018 20:01

disha wrote:Idiots bring in triple talaq vs. sabarimala., one infringes on the right of an individual human itself to live humanly with dignity and respect while the other is not any infringement in any manner on how an individual human can live humanly with dignity and respect.


Don’t blame the messenger, but this is exactly what is going on in several circles.... when devotees query on the passionate application of the verdict in their case, but `abheyence` for inconvenient others (Shi’a/Sunni or the Church case in KL) - they are shown to be indulging in `whataboutery.` However, doing a triple talaq == sabarimala is sheer genius endowed on the left by the Supremes themselves! :P
</sarc never off>

disha wrote:None of this nuances should be reflection on BJP as a dharmic party (or an adharmic party). Their job is to make sure that Bharat remains unified and attains glory and I care a whit on how they go about achieving it. For that matter, that should be the goal of all political party., primarily they must be nationalistic and work towards the welfare of bharatiyas. That is their dharma. Your or mine interpretation of them being dharmic or adharmic is useless.


You misunderstand, the very framework to judge someone Wajib-ul-Qatal is alien to us Dharmics. Anyone telling you someone is Dharmic or not, does not comprehend the concept to begin with. The point I am making simply is either one is like Babasaheb who cared singularly for his people’s rights or one is like Jinnah who only cared for himself. The BJP/RSS need a minor revisit to first principles - what the devotees are going through in Sabarimala is not a political football for them to score points with... the means is as important as the ends!

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby chetak » 29 Oct 2018 20:53

RVAIDYA2000 @rvaidya2000 Oct 23

so it escalates:))))))))))))))))))RT
Women Devotees File Petition In Kerala HC For Police Protection To Visit Sabarimala Temple [Read Petition] | Live Law https://www.livelaw.in/women-devotees-f ... 6M.twitter … via @livelawindia


Go to the link if you have the time.

There, it also has the 26 page petition which I am unable to link to this post.



Women Devotees File Petition In Kerala HC For Police Protection To Visit Sabarimala Temple. [Read Petition]


Women Devotees File Petition In Kerala HC For Police Protection To Visit Sabarimala Temple [Read Petition]


LIVE LAW NEWS NETWORK OCTOBER 23, 2018

A petition has been filed in the High Court of Kerala by four women devotees seeking police protection for visiting Sabarimala temple.

The petitioners – Adv. Maya Krishnan, Adv.Rekha.S, Jalajamol P.S and Jeejamol P.S- state that they are Hindu women aged below 50 years, having faith in Lord Ayyappa of Sabarimala. They intend to visit Sabarimala to offer prayers in furtherance of the Supreme Court decision in Indian Young Lawyers Association case, which invalidated the restriction on women between the age group of 10 and 50 years to enter the temple as unconstitutional. The petitioners state that despite the SC declaration, several persons and organizations have openly declared that they will not let women enter the temple.

The petition has arrayed Congress Party, BJP, Mullappally Ramachandran(KPCC President), P S Sreedharan Pillai(BJP State President), Ramesh Chennithala (Leader of Opposition), Pandalam Palace Nirvahaka Sanghom and Sabarimala Thantri Kandararu Rajeevaru as party respondents, and has stated that these respondents “are instigating some extremist Hindu groups under the name Sabarimala Karma Samithy and various other names, who have no recognized leaders, to the knowledge of these petitioners. In the TV Channels and Social Media they are creating threat to life against those who may attempt to enter in to the Sabarimala“.

It is further stated that these respondents “are instigating violence in the name of an unfounded and ritual practice held to be unconstitutional by the Hon’ble Supreme Court.They are continuing their own illegal agitation and also instigating communal violence their public declarations leads to violence which promotes enmity between different groups of society instigating violence in the ground of caste, religion and gender. Their acts are prejudicial to the maintenance of harmony”.

The petition narrates acts of violence which took place in Nilakkal and Pampa regions over the last five days when Sabarimala temple was opened for puja. It is also stated in the petition that women who attempted to enter temple as per the SC judgment were forced to back off by the agitating mob, who have taken law into their hands to unleash violence and terror in the area. “Women between the ages of 10 and 50 are braided as outcasts and are prevented from exercising their religious rights. With this purpose, they are organizing negative social movements, armed drills and similar other activities intending that the participants shall use or be trained to use criminal force or violence against woman of the age group of 10 to 50”, submits the petition

The petition-filed through Advocate C V Manuvilsan-further states that the agitation has been engineered at the instance of Pandalam Palace and Sabarimala tanthri as “they fear that once Supreme Court judgment is allowed there is every chance that in future, the Court may interfere in the matter of hereditary rights being enjoyed by the Thandri Family and priesthood rights being enjoyed by the Brahminical caste without any constitutional or statutory basis”.

The petition states that “by virtue of being a priest or Tandri, they are gaining undue advantage and collecting and removing large amount from the temple by way of remuneration and also illegal collection from devotees who are ignorant. It is understood by the Petitioners that the Pandalam Raja is enjoying special rights without any legal basis at Pandalam and Sannidhanam. On the way to Sannidhanam onwards, they collect large amount of money by misleading the devotees proclaiming themselves as rajas even though they have absolutely no right to collect any amount”

According to the petitioners, the protests are carried out to protect such privileges enjoyed by the erstwhile royal family of Pandalam and Thanthri. The petitioners allege that the Thanthri and the erstwhile royal family have “hidden agendas” behind the protests.

The petition therefore seeks police protection to the petitioners to exercise their right to visit and pray at Sabarimala temple. The petition further seeks to direct the State government to take necessary legal action against party respondents and prevent them from indulging in unconstitutional and illegal acts of preventing women of age of 10 to 50 from entering Sabarimala temple. It also seeks a direction to the Devaswom board to take necessary steps to prevent the Tandris, Priests, Pandalam Raja family members and Vavarswamy Shrine Authorities from separately collecting any money from pilgrims and declare that all donations collected by them from any other place in the name of Sabarimala Ayyapa Deity are liable to be accounted to Devaswom board.

Read Petition



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