Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

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chetak
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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby chetak » 15 Jan 2019 19:23

Sabarimala – A Tark Vitark
Sabarimala is not a random case. It has been carefully chosen to hit the Hindus where it hurts the most.





Sabarimala – A Tark Vitark
Sabarimala is not a random case. It has been carefully chosen to hit the Hindus where it hurts the most.


Atul Sinha
15-01-2019

The Sabarimala imbroglio has been framed as a gender discrimination issue. The side in favour of lifting restriction presents this as a clash between modern values and traditional patriarchy. My contention is that it hides really troubling issues thus requiring a clinical discussion bereft of emotion.

I will use our traditional format of Tark Vitark (debate): Purvapaksha, Khandan, Pramana and Uttarapaksha to discuss this issue. In this particular case this will mean I will first understand the arguments of the liberals (Purvapaksha) and follow that with a reasoned critique (Khandan). Then I will place Sabarimala in a larger Hindu context giving my rationale (Pramana) and finally I will give an alternate hypothesis of the issue (Uttarapaksha).

Purvapaksha
From discussions in social and main stream media, I have culled out the main arguments of those in favour of lifting the restriction. These are:

The practice of restriction is not ancient. It began in 1991. This is because there were some instances of entry of women, which a 1991 High Court judgement stopped.
Restriction of entry of women in the age band 10-50 is:

Gender discrimination
Associated with the unacceptable notion that menstruation is impure
Women rightly see themselves as equal to men in almost every field and ideas of discrimination and stigmatising female-specific biological processes have to end. Sabarimala is therefore seen from this perspective by liberals and feminists

Deities are divine and beyond human failings. Thus, the notion that they need shielding from sexual temptation does not stand to reason.
The Sabarimala temple is funded by the state and therefore, by law, the state cannot allow any discrimination.

Khandan

Restriction Began In 1991

There was a tradition from ancient times that women in the reproductive age group do not visit the temple. Men had to perform a forty one days vrata before visiting the temple. This tradition was followed willingly by devotees. A Sabarimala devotee, Mahendran, was disturbed by the Travancore Devosam Board violating this tradition by allowing female VIPs in the reproductive age group and male VIPs who had not followed the forty one days vrata into the temple. He filed a petition in the Kerala High Court. A Division bench, after much deliberation and consultation with stake holders, including women’s groups, ruled that temple tradition should be followed. The 1991 court judgement did not start the tradition, it stopped violation of the tradition. Hence the argument that pre 1991 women were allowed is not only false but it is deliberately mischievous.

Restriction Amounts to Gender Discrimination and is Associated with Menstruation
If the temple were to prove that the reason for the tradition has no nexus with either gender discrimination or the notion of menstrual impurity, then the onus of proving otherwise falls on those who have made this allegation. I will provide the temple’s point of view.

The deity has taken the vow of eternal celibacy. He is what is called in Hindu tradition Naishtika Brahmachari. How do we know this? Most ancient temples have a recorded history called Sthana Purana. The Sthana Purana of Sabarimala is called Bhootanatha Upakyanam. It is recorded in this scripture that the deity has revealed his character as Naisthtika Brahmachari.

The legend of Mahishi also indicates that Ayyappa is a Brahmachari. Mahishi was a dreaded Asura who Ayyappa bested. This released Mahishi from a curse.

Transformed, Mahishi expressed her wish to marry Ayyappa. Ayyappa revealed that he had taken the vow of Naishtika Brahmacharya. He however told her that the year no new devotee comes to him, he will end his vow and marry her. Till today she waits in her temple close to Sabarimala under the name Malikapurathu Amma and is revered by devotees. Respect for her sentiment is another reason why women refrain from Ayyappa’s darshan at Sabarimala temple. It must be noted that there are close to 1000 other temples dedicated to Ayyappa where women of all ages worship because the deity takes on forms other than that of a Brahmachari in these temples.
The iconography of Ayyappa with a band around his knees is a standard way of depicting a Brahmachari performing Yoga

The question arises that even if he is a Brahmachari, why does he have to stay away from women in a certain age group. Here again we refer to the scriptures. Shrimad Bhagwatam and Appasthamba Sutram list the eight rules of Naishtika Brahmacharya practice. One of them is to avoid contact with the opposite gender as much as possible. The eight rules apply to both men and women, to both Brahmacharis and Brahmacharinis. This demolishes the argument of gender discrimination. In fact, there are temples with Brahmacharini deities where men do not worship. I am listing five temples here, where men or a category of men do not worship. Attukal Bhagawati temple, Chakkulathukavu temple and Bhagati Maa temple all in Kerala, Brahma temple in Pushkar where married men do not worship and Mata temple in Muzzafarpur. This suggests that the Sabarimala case is not about gender discrimination but that there is a logic based on tradition or shastra.

It is clear that the restriction in Sabarimala has a nexus with women in the reproductive age group and no nexus with the notion that menstruation is impure. If this were the case then the temple would restrict women only on days they were menstruating.

Another argument is that girls may reach menarche before the age of 10 and many women do not reach menopause till after 50. Here the fact is that the temple traditionally did not specify an age band. The system worked on honour. Much later, the government specified the age band.

Isn’t the Deity Above Human Failings
This is a valid argument and needs to be looked at carefully. In Abrahamic faiths, God is above and separate from man. A man saying he is God is blasphemy. For saying ‘My father and I are one’, Jesus was crucified. Hence my argument is that the question itself comes from an Abrahamic mindset that we have all imbibed.

In this particular case, it stands to reason that we should evaluate it from a Hindu perspective. Unlike in Abrahamic faiths where God and man are separate, in Hindu faith God and man are one. Identifying with Mind-Body you are man. Transcend Mind-Body and you are God. God takes avatars as man. In the Hindu system, Gods have weaknesses too. Shiva could not resist the beauty of Mohini and thus Ayyappa was born. Krishna had 16000 partners. Indra is a serial offender. Thus, Gods have human flaws and follow guidelines just like humans do.

These are metaphysical arguments and the rational mind might brush them off as superstition. This is problematic on two counts.

Who is to mediate between faith and rationality. In the Christian faith, you must accept the virgin birth of Jesus to practice that faith. Who is to decide if it is superstition or not. If you have no skin in the game, who are you to stop Christians from believing in virgin birth.

How does it harm anybody if Christians believe in virgin birth or a majority of women believe in the Brahmacharya vows of Ayyappa. What right does anybody have to impose their view on another group that is minding its own business.

The Sabarimala restriction is conflated with other ills in Hindu society that needed reform, the entry of Dalits into temples for example. In the at least 5000 years of the existence of Hindu Dharma, no scripture discriminates against any group, including Dalits. The restriction was man made and a social blight. In the case of Sabarimala, I have already shown that the restriction has no link with gender discrimination or the notion of menstrual impurity. If the practice does not resonate with your rational mind, then let the irrational people follow their belief. As long as they are not hurting anyone you have no right to hurt their sentiments.

Legally, you have the right to profess any faith. However, once you adopt that faith, you have to follow the rules of that faith. If you bring it down to individual rights, we are on a slippery slope. If I say I have a right to pray to any deity by my rules, it will destroy the faith and will tread upon the rights of believers in the rules of that institution. The rights of those who question the very character of the institution and still claim the right to be a part of it has to be questioned critically.

Further, three Supreme Court judgements (1925,1969,1973) have held that once a deity is consecrated, It becomes a legal entity and has Rights. Thus, Sabarimala temple is the abode of Ayyappa. When we go there we defer to his wishes just like we would to the wishes of any other host.

The Government Funds Sabarimala And Therefore Cannot Allow Discrimination by Law

This is a misconception. In 1922, the princely state of Travancore acquired the land owned by the temple and in return agreed to give it a sum of Rs 51 lakh every year. In 1947, when Travancore was absorbed into the Indian Union, its liabilities were assumed by the Indian state. Hence Sabarimala does not get government funding. They get rent. The law is also clear as in the Shiroor Math judgement of 1954 that the state will be responsible for only the administrative aspects, leaving the religious aspects in the hands of the temple and it’s devotees.

Sabarimala exemplifies the tremendous diversity in Hindu Dharma. It celebrates Brahmacharya. There are other temples that celebrate Grihasta. Still others that celebrate Kshatriyata. There is a whole ecosystem of devotion surrounding the character of Sabarimala. By framing the issue as discriminatory we are destroying a very delicate Hindu system based on the premise of Ekam Sat Vipra Bahuda Vadanti and hollowing its very core. ‘Every point of view having a right to exist without forcing itself on others’ is a timeless liberal value. If liberals were to not brush aside Dharma, they will find a very evolved liberalism there. By imposing your values, you are attacking the pluralistic foundation of Hinduism. This could have very dangerous consequences.

Pramana
With deracination, most of us do not know the character of Hindu temples. Placing Sabarimala in this context will strengthen the temple’s counter to the liberal argument that modern values need to replace an unreasoned tradition. To do this I will locate the temple in the larger Hindu cosmology. Some people may reject the metaphysics involved in understanding this aspect. To them I say that you do not challenge the weirdness of Quantum Physics because you accept the authority of Einstein and Hawking and their epistemology of observation. Well, Rishis Vishwamitra and Vasishta were also scientists. They too set out in the quest for truth. Their epistemology was experience and they laid down a process for anybody to have that same experience. So, I urge you to open your mind and, if you cannot, then at least try and understand the Hindu point of view. Without this understanding, a productive Tark Vitark is not possible.

Hindu Cosmology
There exists an Infinite Consciousness that is changeless, unborn and deathless. It is the source of all consciousness in the universe. The material universe is a manifestation of this Infinite Consciousness. Just like waves rise from the ocean, are sustained in it and, after crashing on the rocks, dissolve in it, all creation too rises from Infinite Consciousness, are sustained in it and dissolves into it. Everything in this universe is a compound of the five elements, energised by a vital energy (Prana) and made conscious by the Infinite Consciousness. Hence, nature, man and God, in their essence, is One.

If the truth is that everything is one, then it stands to reason that there will be natural laws of living that create harmony in this seeming diversity in unity. It also stands to reason that the goal of life should be to realise that you are not separate from that Infinite Consciousness – Tat Twam Asi, which incidentally is the guiding mantra of Sabarimala. That natural law, as seen by the Rishis, is called Dharma. Dharma pervades socio-politics, individual behavior, relationship with nature, art, philosophy, relationship with God. In short, pretty much everything. Everything is, in essence, the Infinite Consciousness and thus sacred.

Now we need to locate the Temple in this cosmology.

Character of Hindu Temples
That everything, even solid matter, is energy was known to ancient Hindus. Quantum Physics agrees. A temple is meant to harness this macrocosmic energy to provide devotees with a higher experience. A temple is primarily an energy center, worship is secondary.

How is this energy materialised? Now we need to go into Agama Shastras. By the use of Tantric Vidya, a Yantra (Geometric pattern) is consecrated by the Prana of a Yogi. Once consecrated, the Yantra has an existence in time and space. Now the energy of the deity is invited to reside in the Yantra. The energy is channeled from the macrocosm and concentrated on to the top most point (Stupi) of the temple spire (Vimana). The spire is hollow inside and below it is the sanctum sanctorum (Garbha Griha). The energy flows down to the sanctum sanctorum. This is where the moorti of the deity is placed. It is thus a living energy form in time and space. As we saw, three Supreme Court judgements have ruled that a consecrated deity is a legal entity.

Simplistically speaking, there are two kinds of temples – Vedic and Tantric. Both are consecrated in the same way. The difference is that in Vedic temples, puja is performed while in Tantric temples there is no puja, only darshan. A devotee goes there to imbibe the deity’s energy in order to elevate his own. The deity too is energised by the purity of the devotees. Sabarimala is a Tantric temple. It is thus a place for darshan and not worship. This point needs to be understood by liberals.

To sum up, a temple is a microscopic form of the macrocosm. It is an energy center. All a temple does is amplify whatever bhava you go with. If you go with shradha and bhakti, it will amplify that. If you go with ego and skepticism, it will inflate those.

The whole idea of a temple is to purify yourself, to free yourself from ego and baser nature and prepare the mind to contemplate higher truth. Filled with passion, tossed between attachment and repulsion, afflicted with greed and anger, one cannot contemplate the higher truth. The role of a temple is to aid you to shed these qualities, to become pure so that the mind can concentrate on your true nature. The energy of the temple and your bhava are the two ingredients that help achieve the objective.

Sabarimala Temple
Each temple is unique and has a distinctive character. The deity resides in the temple in a certain form. This decides the character of the temple, its sentiment, feeling, energy and rules. The rules are dependent on the character of the deity. Sabarimala celebrates celibacy as a means for self-purification. The first eight of the eighteen steps symbolise the Ashtaragas – Desire, Anger, Greed, Attachment, Pride, Competitiveness, Jealousy, Boastfulness. By crossing the steps, the devotee is symbolically crossing these human afflictions and moving towards the realization of Tat Twam Asi.

There is an exchange of energy in the temple. The devotees’ energy further energises the temple and the temple raises the devotee’s energy. This is intuitively understood and respected by devotees. There are rules about how to maintain the sanctity of the temple’s energy. If the energy is disturbed, then there are rituals to rebalance the energy. The disturbance can be for any reason, by man or woman. Recently, the Shudhi rites carried out by the Tanthri at Sabarimala has been hysterically interpreted as cleansing the pollution caused by the visit of women with menstruating capability considered impure. This is not true. Any disturbance of energy, for any reason, by man, woman, child or faulty rituals, needs to be corrected by Shudhi.

With the assault on Sabarimala this sublime idea of a temple being an energy center is being destroyed. Its benefits accrue to the one who goes with shradha and not any misplaced idea of equality. What was amplified for the women who entered the temple by deceit and deception? Was is purity or was it ugliness. Contemplate on this question. A place where millions surrender their ego is being strangled by the egos of a handful.

A temple is an idea of beauty so sublime that it brings out the best in human nature. What will be achieved by overpowering this delicate idea by brute force. Think about it, our current world view is based on the ugliness of monotheism, the wound of Cartesian absolutism and the dreadful notion that nature is the slave of man. It has landed us in conflict, sickness of the individual psyche and destruction of nature. Dharma has always been there as a wise alternative with enlightened personal living, responsible social living and coexistence with nature. India is one of the last stubbornly surviving bastions. Why would you kill it with absolutist ideas. This assault on the temple is not something that liberals should gloat over.

Uttarapaksha
The liberal point of view, that this is a case of gender discrimination, is not a slam dunk. The traditionalist arguments are also meritorious. The feminists believe that it is high time discriminatory practices end. Equally, the Hindus believe that it is high time reverse discrimination against the majority ends too. What is needed is dialogue. Forcing a point of view can have dangerous consequences. However, what I am going to present here is that there is a bigger conspiracy and the liberals are being used as a screen. The real agenda is far more sinister. I will build my case based on facts.

In their path breaking book, Breaking India, Rajiv Malhotra and Aravindan Neelakandan have detailed the nexus between Western governments, academia, foundations, evangelical organisations, leftists and jihadists and their agenda to divide India along its fault lines, change its demography and prevent its rise. They execute their plan by creating a negative narrative of India, atrocity literature, subversion, evangelism and terrorism. A February 2004 Tehelka Expose by V S Shashikumar details Project Joshua which aims to Christianise India. The project has humongous funding and a breathtaking strategy that would make a military plan look amateurish. A more detailed discussion on this larger Breaking India agenda is beyond the scope of this article. The purpose here is to simply state that there is such an agenda. In this section, I will only focus on factually presenting the conspiracy against Sabarimala and make the point that the attack on Sabarimala is systematic and sustained.

The Communist Government
The Communist government in Kerala is taking cover behind the ruse that they are merely implementing the Supreme Court judgement. However, the manner in which they have forced women into the temple reveals their anti-Hindu stance:

They have desecrated the temple using deceit and deception. Do elected governments use deceit against their own people?

The kind of women they have conscripted to violate the temple are, by no stretch of imagination, devotees

They have used Muslim and Christian women and mandated that female government employees participate in the farcical government sponsored wall. I hope the irony of burqa clad Muslim women protesting Brahminical Patriarchy is not lost even on the most cynical. Do governments sponsor walls to hurt their own people?

They have picked on the Hindus for forceful implementation of a court judgement while sparing the Christians on a very similar issue: In the long standing dispute between the two factions of the Malankara church – Orthodox Syrian Church and Jacobite Syrian Church, the Supreme court ruling on July 3rd 2017, gave the Orthodox Church control over Jacobite churches. When the Jacobites prevented the Orthodox from entering their churches, a petition was filed by the Orthodox Church in a Kerala Court seeking police protection. The judge came down heavily on the administration and noted that they had a duty to implement the Supreme Court judgement. A review petition filed by the Jacobite Church was rejected by the Supreme Court on November 14th the same year. This makes the government equally duty bound to implement the court order. But this is what the Times of India reported about the government stance: “The government has said it is trying for an amicable solution as there has been continued escalation of tension between the two factions … resulting in law and order problem.” Can someone explain the difference between the case of Sabarimala and Malankara church as far is the need for ‘amicable solution’ and prevention of ‘law and order problem’ is concerned? Being kind to the Jacobites but using brute force, deception and non-devotees to desecrate Sabarimala, at the very least, reveals an attitude to assert superiority over Hinduism. It is no different from the attitude of invaders of the past.

Christian Conspiracy
On June 14th 1950, a temple employee found that the main temple, hall and store room of Sabarimala were gutted. Since the temple was closed after the pilgrimage season on May 20th 1950, it was not immediately known when the fire occurred. A police investigation later put the date of arson to 26-27th May. The incident was investigated by DIG, Special BranchKesava Menon. The investigation report is in the public domain. The report concluded:

There were violent cut marks on the door of the temple, the moorti had been decapitated and its left palm cut by an axe. The axe was recovered from the scene of crime. Since no valuables were missing, it was concluded that robbery was not the motive.
The investigation ruled out the role of any Hindu group since it was Christians that lived at the base of the Sabarimala hill and no outside group could have entered without being noticed.
Circumstantial evidence strongly pointed to local Christians.
The probable reasons were:
a) To intimidate the Hindus who considered the surrounding forest holy and objected to Christians hunting wild animals there.
b) Sabarimala did not discriminate on caste and this came in the way of the Christian plan to convert lower caste Hindus.

Congress minister C. Keshawan is on record saying that one temple down means so much of reduction in superstition.
Nilackal is on the route to Sabarimala and considered holy by the Hindus. In March 1983, the church claimed that they had found a 2000 year old wooden cross in Nilackal. They claimed it to be a St Thomas relic. They demanded and were given a land grant to build a church there. The Hindus led by K Rajashekharan, the present governor of Mizoram, protested. After six months of strong protest the land grant given by the Congress government was cancelled. However, 58 acres of reserved forest land was granted at a distance of 4 km from Nilackal. A church stands there today. It may be added, that when A.S.I. demanded that the cross be handed over to them for examination, the church refused, thus suggesting that the planting of the cross was a ploy.

In the year 2000 a lizard was found in a can of the holy Aravan Payasam. The matter was investigated by the High Court. Its report is clear that it was impossible for a lizard to come through the narrow tube from which the payasam is poured into cans. It concluded that it was a deliberate act and the church spread the canard to erode the sanctity of the Aravan Payasam.

In 2006, the Tanthri was abducted by Bechu Rahman, Shobha John and Biju Peters. Rahman belongs to the D company and Shobha is a sex worker. Obscene pictures were taken of him in Shobha’s house. Rahul Eshwar has exposed this joint Muslim-Christian conspiracy to defame Sabarimala.

We have seen how the government has favoured the Jacobites by not implementing the Supreme Court judgement. To return the favour, the Jacobite church instructed 100,000 of its women to join the government sponsored wall in January 2019. Fr. Varghese Kallappara is on record saying “It is the policy of Jacobite Church to lend support to those who help us in crisis.” At the flimsiest pretext the Christians shout persecution but have no qualms in hurting the sentiments of Hindus on an issue that has nothing to do with them.

The Christian objective is to break the monopoly of Hindus in one of their biggest pilgrimage centers, to establish a church near Sabarimala and ensure that the area becomes a center for Christianity.

The Muslim Angle
A narrative is being created that because of Vavar mosque, Muslims too have a claim to this place. Vavar was a friend of the prince of Pandalum. He became a devotee of Ayyappa and requested that he build a mosque for Ayyappa pilgrims to visit. In the spirit of Hindu inclusiveness, the prince agreed. Little did he know that centuries later the mosque will be used to claim Muslim rights to the area.

The Jihadist angle came to light when 360 kgs of explosives were found in the forest close to the temple in December 2016. The plan was to blow up the temple on 6th December, anniversary of the Babri Masjid demolition. Alert forest guards discovered this and saved the temple.

Conclusion
Sabarimala is not a random case. It has been carefully chosen to hit the Hindus where it hurts the most. The next likely target is Khumb Mela, the largest gathering of Hindus with an unbroken tradition going back 8000 years. Rajiv Malhotra has investigated the Harvard Khumb Mela Project led by Diana Eck. Her real agenda was given away when she remarked that she missed seeing feminist NGOs at the Mela. The attack on Khumb Mela will be on expected lines. Demographic studies will map caste wise participation to look at inequality of facilities with an aim to create inter caste conflict. Feminists will write against Khumb Mela being a male bastion and highlight exploitation of women. Environmentalists will weigh in with the narrative of rituals causing pollution. Public Health experts will declare Khumb Mela a health hazard and Christian missionaries will infiltrate in the guise of providing food and water.

This is what Hindus are up against. Colonial era laws persist and are being used against them. In many instances, the state is against them, as can be seen from the history of Sabarimala. The monotheists and Marxists are not going to back down. The media is against Hindus too and will be the first to run down and even misrepresent their traditions as they are doing in the case of Sabarimala. Hindus will be provoked and, when they react, they will be labeled Hindu Taliban. This is just the way it is. Hindus need to unite behind issues like the assault on Sabarimala. To change a system that discriminates against the majority will take some doing. In a democracy this, will not happen unless the constituency backing these changes is large, united and consistent.

The communist government must have thought they could get away with their plan to break the Hindu hold over the Sabarimala geography and tradition and to turn a most holy place into a tourist jamboree. But they misread the rise of Hindu consciousness and have landed themselves in a huge mess. The blueprint on which a Hindu renaissance can be structured is a thing of great beauty and a tested system for everything the liberals yearn for. Liberals and Hindu revivalists can be allies, all they need is to talk to each other.

References
Sabarimala Temple Case Parts 1 & 2- News X discussion with J Sai Deepak, Iqbal Ansari and Tarun Nagpal, YouTube
Sabarimala Temple Arson Case- Enquiry Report by Shri K. Kesavan Menon, Deputy Inspector General of Police, Special Branch, C.I.D (On Special Duty)
Chiranjeevi Bhat, Is there a Christian conspiracy against Sabarimala, Indiafacts.org
Radhakrishna Kuthoor, Commissioner Suspects Foul Play, The Hindu, Dec 15, 2000
Mahir Haneef, Control over Orthodox Church: Will Try For Amicable Settlement, Government Tells HC, Times of India, July 18, 2018
T A Ameerudheen, A Century Old Church Dispute in Kerala Comes Up Again as Supreme Court Rejects Plea on Leadership, Scroll, Nov 19, 2018
Rajiv Malhotra, Why Khumb Mela is at Risk, Infinity Foundation



Atul Sinha founded and runs a leading Strategic Brand Design Company. His interest in Indic culture and history led him to pursue a PhD program at SVYASA, Bangalore. He writes on Vedanta and Indic Culture.

chetak
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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby chetak » 15 Jan 2019 22:38

the verbal assaults and the taunting of Hindu's by minorities and commie naxals continues unabated.

atheist, my foot.


taslima nasreen Verified account @taslimanasreen

I am 56. Can I enter #Sabarimala temple? BTW, I am an atheist.

12:47 AM - 19 Oct 2018



BhadraKali @bitchimbhadra 19 Oct 2018

BhadraKali Retweeted taslima nasreen

Can you enter Bangladesh?

chetak
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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby chetak » 16 Jan 2019 00:06

OT but informative


Image

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby dnivas » 16 Jan 2019 00:12

Excellent posts Sir. get well soon

chetak
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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby chetak » 16 Jan 2019 00:17

twitter.

the lady judge is on leave. the hearing will be rescheduled once she returns

Supreme Court postponed Sabarimala review pettition hearing which was supposed to hear on Jan 22nd. New dates will be declared later.

10:01 PM - 14 Jan 2019

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 16 Jan 2019 01:45

So whats the impact of Modi's Kerala visit?

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 16 Jan 2019 01:46

(When) do theirHonners actually work?

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 16 Jan 2019 07:12

Breaking Now: Two more bibis en route, being blocked by devotees at Neelimala. One of them is the Reshma bibi from Kannur who claimed that she is on vrutham, but had posted having sardine fry a few days before.

Impact of Modi's visit? Squat! What do you expect? Pinarayi melting down in front of his aura? Modi said GoK is doing the wrong thing and BJP will come to power from Zero. He did not talk about any solution.

If his solution is "Let BJP come to power and they will solve the issue", I have nothing to say.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Pulikeshi » 16 Jan 2019 08:08

UlanBatori wrote:(When) do theirHonners actually work?


The work begins where the Constitution ends!? :P :mrgreen:

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 16 Jan 2019 12:02

chetak wrote:the lady judge is on leave. the hearing will be rescheduled once she returns

Dileep wrote:If his solution is "Let BJP come to power and they will solve the issue", I have nothing to say.

It is better to accept that the Hindu Bhaktha has once again been asked to fend for himself. This is what has been happening in RJB, and most likely the same would happen at Sabari Mala also. In my mind the image which comes up is that of a donkey (Hindu Bhakth) being led by some carrots hanging on a stick in front of it. The stick is being held by one or more people (here BJP and judiciary etc.). The Hindu Bhakth just slogs along, hoping for one fine day where he gets the carrots (and gets redemption).

Sabari Mala's sanctity is now pretty much gone, and like RJB it would be a "battle ground" of sorts. Commies still have three more years to go and by then the temple & faith system most likely would be irrecoverably damaged. Most likely when the next time the temple reopens the commies would bulldoze the chief priest (as pilgrim foot fall would be less). Hizzhonors would be still delaying the case hearings.

Online media portal Marunadan Malayali reports that Sangh Parivar is planning to launch a series of agitations involving people from many parts of India. Mata Amrithananda Mayi is to be the leading figure, and her organisation's assets across India would also be used for spreading the message. The news predicts that there would be no conclusion for Sabari Mala issue any time before Lok Sabha 2019 elections; which means that this is now going to be a political fight.

Dileep wrote:Breaking Now: Two more bibis en route, being blocked by devotees at Neelimala. One of them is the Reshma bibi from Kannur who claimed that she is on vrutham

Attempt foiled and the women is now under police custody. But with folks like Harishankar & Manoj Abraham around, I feel they are being taken into "custody" to launch them to the temple at a more suitable time. Today again it was the pilgrims who protested, with many protestors being from A.P. The party police of commies were again seen in some strategic locations at the temple yesterday, which means that commies are still on track.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 16 Jan 2019 17:10

Sachin, the thing about MA is political misinformation designed to destroy them. Look at the similarity: SM and MA: both highly lucrative from the Other Sides's pov. Worse, MA funds may not be directly within reach of the commies. Now if they can be be cast as interfering in politics, they can be attacked and looted.

Please let's not help spread such things. MA ppl have enough trouble on their hands: look at the demographics in the area surrounding and I mean SURROUNDING the MA hq. A political label is **NOT** a thing they can tolerate.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Prem » 17 Jan 2019 03:28

KH folks are fighting war like Hindus were fighting the invaders in north by defending the land and not taking war to enemy. CC Invaders have insulted Dharma, Army , Civilization and physically wounded many, They have come inside the homes of KHs,deciding their fate and these guys Japping SSharnam instead Shastar/Hasth Sharnam, What else can be tipping point for them ? If no no initiative is taken to set thongs right and send the correct signal, fatigue will soon set in and it will be all over.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Yagnasri » 17 Jan 2019 03:29

Hindu bhakta in KL (and other parts of Bharat) need to stop being stupid. He/she also has to realise drinking too much secular cool aid is harmful in long terms at least if not in short term. He/she cannot vote of communists (and Mafia Queen and her B teams) with massive majorities in the political front and expect the Dhamic life to continue. As Obomber famously said, "elections have consequences". Not identifying the enemy is a mistake. What do we call repeatedly empowering enemy? How can BJP or anyone help Hindus if we continuously make stupid political decisions and call BJP communal ourselves time and again just to feel superior to dirty cheddiwalas ? We do not want to have our hands dirty but others shall clean the mess we created in our house? What is happening is KL during elections is going to happen in my state also and I fear we are going to have massive problems there also.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2019 04:57

We heard assurances about donating to CM Relief Fund for flood relief.
Now Times Now has an expose on misuse of funds.

https://twitter.com/TimesNow/status/108 ... 44384?s=19

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 17 Jan 2019 07:15

Two curious news items:
Last edited by UlanBatori on 17 Jan 2019 22:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 17 Jan 2019 07:34

The latest theory by a former prez of the Devaswom Board ("independent" body run by politically appointed figureheads) is that the two sneak attack bibis never made to the darshan point, as there is no visual on the CCTV.

I am pretty sure that they made to the main complex and near to the flag pole. That video can't be fake. But I am not sure if they could have entered into the building without attracting attention. Regular pilgrims are not permitted through that corridor, and there are asst. priests and helpers doing their stuff there. So, maybe they went as far as the flag pole, saw the massive wall of butts of devotees who pass across the 'sopanam' and retreated the same way they came.

Was that violation of the custom? Absolutely. Entry of those women into the main complex is a violation.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 17 Jan 2019 08:04

w/ all due respect, the peeve of the hc delegation seems 2 b that mere peasant agitators were allowed in thru the VIP ENTRANCE!! :shock: :eek:
:rotfl:
Last edited by UlanBatori on 17 Jan 2019 22:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 17 Jan 2019 09:25

To tell the truth, this aam swamy once used that entrance to get up by simply asking the police ayyappan guarding the gate. They often permit that when rush is not much and one or two guys ask (and no one else around to mob demanding more entries). I went up to break the coconut and take the final leave of the place.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby SPattath » 17 Jan 2019 12:31

Dileep wrote:The latest theory by a former prez of the Devaswom Board ("independent" body run by politically appointed figureheads) is that the two sneak attack bibis never made to the darshan point, as there is no visual on the CCTV.

I am pretty sure that they made to the main complex and near to the flag pole. That video can't be fake. But I am not sure if they could have entered into the building without attracting attention. Regular pilgrims are not permitted through that corridor, and there are asst. priests and helpers doing their stuff there. So, maybe they went as far as the flag pole, saw the massive wall of butts of devotees who pass across the 'sopanam' and retreated the same way they came.

Was that violation of the custom? Absolutely. Entry of those women into the main complex is a violation.

The video grab showed them in front of the Sreekovil getting in through the VIP entrance and immediately moving to the left and exiting without darshan, looks like they didn't know where the diety is placed hence didn't look at the diety.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Karan M » 17 Jan 2019 12:47

Its amazing to see how many closet de-racinated jerks have crawled out of the woodwork on this issue.

FB is full of comments from the usual suspects like "if XXX is really scared of women, is he really a xxxx", is "Hinduism really a religion, as its afraid of progressivism" blah blah... really, the Leftist indoctrination, the toxic mix of caste based entitlement ("I am x caste, y religion, I am oppressed") has made people into complete bigots. Most of these commentators belong to the standard groups. Leftist or left leaning, very "capitalist" in their likes/dislikes/love of luxury.

I am wondering if the average Hindu is really so apathetic that this commentary slides like water off of a ducks back, or one day people say enough is enough. 2019 is really Make or Break for the average person, Sabarimala is the tip of the iceberg. It will only get worse and expect many more such attacks on your heathen, non-progressive "blind-superstition".

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 17 Jan 2019 14:08

People have already said "enough is enough". Now, what exactly will that energy be channelled into is yet to be seen.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 17 Jan 2019 14:22

The two women who entered the shrine secretly is now really giving it back to their "helpers", the shameless Kerala Police. The women have approached supreme court asking for full time police protection :lol:. They sight threat to their lives. And they have also asked the SC to declare any shudhi poojas etc. done at the temple to be declared unconstituitional. Chief Justice Ranjan Gogoi has listed the case for hearing tomorrow. If the courts start intefering in the rituals & customs of Hindu temples, then that would be a clear indication on how Hinduism would survive in India from now on.

[Devaswom Minister] Kadakampally {Surendran} expresses concern over Sabarimala monitoring committee report.
He stated that he is worried whether the committee will take a stand against the Supreme Court verdict allowing entry for all women into Sabarimala. :roll:

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 17 Jan 2019 17:20

Are they asking for protection from the rabid hindoo extreemist mobs outside, or from their own kind, supportive and sympathetic relatives?
Last edited by UlanBatori on 17 Jan 2019 22:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 17 Jan 2019 18:53

Gold and Zero demands that the SC:
1. Give clear directions to take all and sundry to the Sannidhanam without hindrance. Thank god they didn't demand military!
2. Police protection for them 24/7.
3. Order all authorities not to do purification ritual if wimmin enter.
4. Declare that such purification ritual is un constitutional violating so many clauses.

Now, they want the SC to tell how yindoo worship is to be done. Interesting. Let us see what the CJI say tomorrow.

However, the writ of mandamus is applicable only for statutory authority. The spiritual authority at the temple is not statutory.

Thank god Hon. Dipak Mishra is retired. He, being the self proclaimed "crusader for equality" would have happily ordered as prayed. Not so sure about Hon. Gogoi.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 17 Jan 2019 18:55

Image

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 17 Jan 2019 20:21

The Su--- C... seriously needs to keep a BIG Submission System outside. One of those blue barrels with white top marked "paper". This is beyond ridiculous. They have time to hear THIS but not to come to a decision for 130 years on Ayodhya?

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby chetak » 17 Jan 2019 21:27

UlanBatori wrote:The Su--- C... seriously needs to keep a BIG Submission System outside. One of those blue barrels with white top marked "paper". This is beyond ridiculous. They have time to hear THIS but not to come to a decision for 130 years on Ayodhya?


they deliberated and passed orders on dance bars.

they are doing vital national work, saar.

please to have patience onlee.


added later

historic verdict-- SC has ordered Bombay Bar girls can reveal max 6 inches of waist and 8 inches of back--Amicus curies--usual ones--will "closely" monitor daily and report back to SC--For English MSM like @MirrorNow/@CNNnews18/@TimesNow -Major defeat to "Sanskari brigade" RT

11:08 PM - 16 Jan 2019
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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 17 Jan 2019 21:43

:shock:
Last edited by UlanBatori on 17 Jan 2019 22:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2019 21:52

Ok Need some discipline.
Ulan Batori if you have to post cryptic language then don't. No BB etc.
I did not permit discussion for jibes and pointed remarks. Not all who read are members.
We do have a wider audience of unregistered readers.

Dileep, we can do with less negativity.
All I see from you is pouring cold water on any show of resistance by Kerala Hindus.

Sachin, you are doing good job of just the facts and telling your opinion separated.
All folks please stick to these norms.
We are discussing a very touch issue close to the hearts of millions of Hindus all over India.

very respectfully,
ramana

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 18 Jan 2019 02:03


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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby disha » 18 Jan 2019 06:24

PeeWee is angling for violence.

PeeWee is the pig who wants to fight in the pigsty since they know how best to operate in pigsty.

PeeWee will continue on piling up the insults. This is the time when Hindus need to have patience. Let the insults come in. It means that they have lost the battle of heart and mind and logic and are now angling for physical fight. Basically violence.

This are very tough times.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby UlanBatori » 18 Jan 2019 07:17

That report is a bit misleading and inflammatory, isn't it? An unused SN in its cover is no less pure than any other clean towel. People may carry those in their purse as standard equipment. When going on an arduous trek in places with few facilities, toxic shock is a concern, and that is why ppl might carry such things as fairly cheap way to have some essentials. In fact I am trying to think where I have seen this b4: the advice to take along some sealed SNs in first aid kit.

Of course, not saying that the carrier did not have intentions to blatantly commit sacrilege. They went up like an invading force.

But I gather that the brother is not exactly in support of his sister's actions? This revelation puts sis at serious physical risk, because few will give the report the calm interpretation that UBCN gives above.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Yagnasri » 18 Jan 2019 09:39

When you want there as an invasion force, who go half prepared? You go with full measure. So we can not discount the SN story fully also. The women undertook this actions know that risks and did it anyway for their political masters or may be to satisfy their own political ideas. So why complain now if their own near and dear come out against them. Surely they know what the people close to them will think of their actions. I am sure they will be provided full police protection by PV unless he is playing more horrible games with this women security.

As long as PV is there this is going to continue. I hear from KL people in my city instances of Hindus are beaten on the roads by police etc. I am not sure all this are correct. With MSM being what it is there is no way outsiders know these things clear unless you are having people informing you from the ground.

Many here are saying their is a huge Hindu consolidation happening in KL right now. Some of it may be wishful thinking. If voters are slowing coming out of communist and secular coolaid addition in KL it is good for the nation and KL.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Kashi » 18 Jan 2019 09:41

Yagnasri wrote:As long as PV is there this is going to continue. I hear from KL people in my city instances of Hindus are beaten on the roads by police etc.


What about the policemen doing the beating?

Yagnasri wrote:Many here are saying their is a huge Hindu consolidation happening in KL right now. Some of it may be wishful thinking. If voters are slowing coming out of communist and secular coolaid addition in KL it is good for the nation and KL.


What consolidation? There are members still high on the "Kerala secular kool-aid", seemingly haven given up on Sabarimala as having being desecrated and painting a gloomy picture.

I must commend posters (from Kerala) at DFI for being constantly upbeat and also with a never say die attitude on this matter. When there was :(( on this thread over the scoot-and-run of the deity by the SN-bibi, a DFI member pointed out that they never actually had the darshan, just a pass by. Along with other interesting tidbits.

Consolidation is indeed happening, but perhaps not at the huge scale.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 18 Jan 2019 10:29

There is credible threat of an invasion today/tomorrow, the two remaining days of public darshan. The mufti police are spotted in numbers at various locations.

One consolation is that the prohibitory order is no longer there. Devotees are on the watch out. Since the utter deception of taking women in ambulance, devotees have become very wary. I don't think ambulances and transgenders can go unchecked anymore.

Meanwhile, the mandamus case by Zero will be taken for admission today forenoon as one of the three at the CJI's bench. What the Hon CJI say need to be carefully observed.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 18 Jan 2019 12:59

Breaking: As expected SC grants 24/7 security to the two women. But refused to entertain the other prayers.

GoKL claims 51 wimmin had darshan. Looks like it is the list of all women who passed through Nilackal. I don't think anyone except the two made to the sannidhanam.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 18 Jan 2019 13:02

Kashi wrote:What about the policemen doing the beating?

Dileep wrote:The mufti police are spotted in numbers at various locations.

The commies are actually playing a standard British tactic here. For doing any shady activity at Sabari Mala commies are using their loyal police men mainly from Kannur district in North Kerala. These fellows have no connection with temples in South Kerala & associated belief systems. The religious identity of the police men have been deliberately kept a secret (except that of some senior police officers), and I would not ignore the aspect of them being non-Hindus. But on the positive side, the identities of such party kammissar policemen is also now known to many people.

There seems to be a big rift within Kerala Police on the issue. And that is seen at Sabari Mala as well as in other parts of the state as well. Commies had to rely on the party kammissar goons in uniform, because they realised that majority of the police personnel posted in the hill temple will not cooperate. They also knew that tip offs of the shady moves of the commie goon police is also leaking via the police men "Swamis". Retired police officers are now opening up help desks to help the "pilgrim protestors" in their cases.

There was a harthal/bandh the day after the police took two women up the shrine. Janam TV got an audio recording of the message given by S.P Palakkad Dt over the police wireless. He categorically wanted to show that the harthal/bandh was a failure and given some instructions to make sure that it happens. The message is said to have been recorded by some of the police men who shared with Janam TV and few others. Result; Palakkad saw a massive protest and near 100% lock out of establishments ;).

During the early days of protest, many of the untrained recruits who did the lathi charge may not have been Hindus. The helmet thief police man was certainly not one. He had tried to justify the theft in facebook, and his identity was revealed.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 18 Jan 2019 13:07

Dileep wrote:Breaking: As expected SC grants 24/7 security to the two women. But refused to entertain the other prayers.

:lol: No sympathies with the Kerala Police this time around. I am sure Herr Pinarayi Vijayan can appoint a squad of party kammissar from his own mother district.The police men deployed would have a good time with good opportunities like renaissance through menstruation etc coming their way.

This action from Hon.SC was the easiest thing for them to do. Because the other aspects would require much closer legal scrutiny, and from what I could get from media reports Hon.SC did NOT consider any of the other requests (like directions for the chief priest etc.).

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Kashi » 18 Jan 2019 13:28

So apart from the "party kammissar goons in uniform" most probably from Northern Kerala districts (and from beyond the state), there's a distinct possibility that non-Hindu policemen were disproportionately deployed to "keep the Ayyappa devotees in line".

Yet, there's an unwavering belief in "Kerala's secular fabric"??

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Yagnasri » 18 Jan 2019 13:50

With politically suitable security forces who will not hesitate to shoot the unarmed public peaceful opposing the rulers, the communist utopia is in place in KL. Pity PV did not have tanks to roll on.


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